From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 00:20:23 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:20:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A letter from Mr Moore Message-ID: <98f331e00809301150na081190vdfe5ce6fead2b08f@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, This is a letter from Mr Moore (30/09/08). Hope you all will enjoy as I enjoyed this. Prakash Friends, Everyone said the bill would pass. The masters of the universe were already making celebratory dinner reservations at Manhattan's finest restaurants. Personal shoppers in Dallas and Atlanta were dispatched to do the early Christmas gifting. Mad Men of Chicago and Miami were popping corks and toasting each other long before the morning latte run. But what they didn't know was that hundreds of thousands of Americans woke up yesterday morning and decided it was time for revolt. The politicians never saw it coming. Millions of phone calls and emails hit Congress so hard it was as if Marshall Dillon, Elliot Ness and Dog the Bounty Hunter had descended on D.C. to stop the looting and arrest the thieves. The Corporate Crime of the Century was halted by a vote of 228 to 205. It was rare and historic; no one could remember a time when a bill supported by the president and the leadership of both parties went down in defeat. That just never happens. A lot of people are wondering why the right wing of the Republican Party joined with the left wing of the Democratic Party in voting down the thievery. Forty percent of Democrats and two-thirds of Republicans voted against the bill. Here's what happened: The presidential race may still be close in the polls, but the Congressional races are pointing toward a landslide for the Democrats. Few dispute the prediction that the Republicans are in for a whoopin' on November 4th. Up to 30 Republican House seats could be lost in what would be a stunning repudiation of their agenda. The Republican reps are so scared of losing their seats, when this "financial crisis" reared its head two weeks ago, they realized they had just been handed their one and only chance to separate themselves from Bush before the election, while doing something that would make them look like they were on the side of "the people." Watching C-Span yesterday morning was one of the best comedy shows I'd seen in ages. There they were, one Republican after another who had backed the war and sunk the country into record debt, who had voted to kill every regulation that would have kept Wall Street in check -- there they were, now crying foul and standing up for the little guy! One after another, they stood at the microphone on the House floor and threw Bush under the bus, under the train (even though they had voted to kill off our nation's trains, too), heck, they would've thrown him under the rising waters of the Lower Ninth Ward if they could've conjured up another hurricane. You know how your dog acts when sprayed by a skunk? He howls and runs around trying to shake it off, rubbing and rolling himself on every piece of your carpet, trying to get rid of the stench. That's what it looked like on the Republican side of the aisle yesterday, and it was a sight to behold. The 95 brave Dems who broke with Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were the real heroes, just like those few who stood up and voted against the war in October of 2002. Watch the remarks from yesterday of Reps. Marcy Kaptur, Sheila Jackson Lee , and Dennis Kucinich . They spoke the truth. The Dems who voted for the giveaway did so mostly because they were scared by the threats of Wall Street, that if the rich didn't get their handout, the market would go nuts and then it's bye-bye stock-based pension and retirement funds. And guess what? That's exactly what Wall Street did! The largest, single-day drop in the Dow in the history of the New York Stock exchange. The news anchors last night screamed it out: Americans just lost 1.2 trillion dollars in the stock market!! It's a financial Pearl Harbor! The sky is falling! Bird flu! Killer Bees! Of course, sane people know that nobody "lost" anything yesterday, that stocks go up and down and this too shall pass because the rich will now buy low, hold, then sell off, then buy low again. But for now, Wall Street and its propaganda arm (the networks and media it owns) will continue to try and scare the bejesus out of you. It will be harder to get a loan. Some people will lose their jobs. A weak nation of wimps won't last long under this torture. Or will we? Is this our line in the sand? Here's my guess: The Democratic leadership in the House secretly hoped all along that this lousy bill would go down. With Bush's proposals shredded, the Dems knew they could then write their own bill that favors the average American, not the upper 10% who were hoping for another kegger of gold. So the ball is in the Democrats' hands. The gun from Wall Street remains at their head. Before they make their next move, let me tell you what the media kept silent about while this bill was being debated: 1. The bailout bill had NO enforcement provisions for the so-called oversight group that was going to monitor Wall Street's spending of the $700 billion; 2. It had NO penalties, fines or imprisonment for any executive who might steal any of the people's money; 3. It did NOTHING to force banks and lenders to rewrite people's mortgages to avoid foreclosures -- this bill would not have stopped ONE foreclosure!; 4. It had NO teeth anywhere in the entire piece of legislation, using words like "suggested" when referring to the government being paid back for the bailout; 5. Over 200 economistswrote to Congress and said this bill might actually WORSEN the "financial crisis" and cause even MORE of a meltdown. Put a fork in this slab of pork. It's over. Now it is time for our side to state very clearly the laws WE want passed. I will send you my proposals later today. We've bought ourselves less than 72 hours. Yours, Michael Moore From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Wed Oct 1 03:30:07 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:00:07 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] a thought In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809301102u24554556q1a613c8b07d87749@mail.gmail.com> References: <48E22523.4040801@sarai.net> <2ad82fd30809300717t64029112j637d9656aa02491d@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809300741o5d2a7cbw6761caa62e5c2660@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809300906w464ddaefq37ca252be65ad233@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809301005r478f4972v603f36b404b3e5be@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809301102u24554556q1a613c8b07d87749@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0809301500h7a12260eg3b8a80a0ad45b23d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, 1. I am enchanted by your response. I feel let down that you may not wish to engage with me on this issue anymore. I hope otherwise. Moreover, I am amazed that you can easily gauge my 'unlimited' energy to interact with members on this in the same realm as you must have perhaps measured other list members 'unlimited' energy to interact with me. That you choose to ignore other list members tenacity in this wonderful exchange of 'unlimited energies' is a different matter altogether, something which I would rather not comment on. I would leave that to your good judgment. Coming to your post, first of all Aarti, thank you very much for your generosity by replying to my post with such care and concern. When I was outlying my arguments I was not thinking about a modus operandi, but rather to tell you the truth, I was thinking about modus vivendi. I was deeply concerned about how we as list members are going to and should deal with our differences. I still am and will always be. Shuddha painstakingly mentions a range of conversations that reader list has witnessed over past seven years, I see that the only one strand which binds these conversations together is perhaps of -difference-. The question for all us here is how do we look at this tenuous thread of -difference-. I would like to imagine sarai as an online mehfil and as the poet suggests any mehfil will attract people of many callings and persuasions. Over the years subscribers relationship to the readerlist could be summed up as- Dil tujhe debhi gaye, apna sila le bhi gaye, Aa ke baithe bhi na the, ke nikaale bhi gaye. Many subscribers have in fact given their 'dil' and taken their 'sila' in the process of making this list lively but now it seems that the issue has become more around the way in which one engages or should engage with this mehfil. 'Nehin mehfil mein jinhen baat bhi karne ka shaoor' is what we have to deal with. 2. As you would have known that appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. To begin with, you are absolutely right when you say that I have 'deliberately misunderstood' this. I have. Sometimes in order to do a mischief, one needs to engage in 'appeals to authority'. Even when one knows that nothing of that sort exists. And what I did in past few weeks was perhaps nothing less than a mischief. I was not loyal to that unwritten code of public conduct which Iram so rightly and perhaps angrily alluded to in the past, I would again take comfort from the poet who has this to say about loyalty, 'Hum wafadar nahin, tu bhi tau dildar nahin'. I must have directed my mails to that elusive figure of 1400 list subscribers to demonstrate some 'dildari' on this issue. But instead of taking the due process, I choose a direct,maybe confrontational method. Because, in all my earnestness, I assumed that a response from Sarai would elicit an immediate discussion. The 'dildari' from sarai would be more useful, if you may. In the tradition of deafening silence with which sarai takes care of this list, what vivek did today was nothing less than a 'dildari' There was never ever in my mind an intention to cause harm to this list, however, I will not hesitate to do this mischief again, if I find exchanges crossing limits of decent public conversation. Consider this a promise. 3. I disagree with your contention that in the event if this list fails, then sarai will not be responsible. On the contrary a death of reader list would be as much sarai's responsibility as it would anyone's. For are we not in this together? On a different note though, I find it strange that you speak on sarai's behalf when you don't work there anymore as much as it escapes my reasoning to read Iram's mail, as only concerned with her individual capacity, though she communicates from a sarai.net address. Maybe you understand sarai's silences more than perhaps I do. I do not have any issues on what I find an ambivalent relationship. I let it be. 4. Just a clarification, if you had read 'mail after mail' from me, you would have noticed that, again and again I was either trying to elicit some sort of response from sarai community or asking everyone else to respond. The silences of everyone else, including yours, were distressing. You must have also noticed that, while replying to monica I wrote, 'I am at a loss of words' here. Therefore the issue of me arguing for a moral imperative on sarai only to intervene does not arise. 5.In the same grain I do not take your argument about, 'structure of a web community' as given. I would imagine a web community to be a social construct and like any social constructs must be subject to negotiation. I find sarai's refusal to negotiate problematic as I feel deeply uncomfortable while making an effort to understand silences of other list members. I agree that sarai as an entity will never have a policy of negotiation but at the same time, I would expect some amount of 'dildari'. Not in a sense of generosity because frankly speaking, I would rather that sarai be less generous but in the sense of 'daring'. 'Idhar daring karne ko mangta hai baap' (like Pakhiya tells Munna in Rangeela) I don't think issue of sarai's posting's will be solved forever by vivek's intervention but at the same time time i would not like to believe that there was absolute anarchy before, as you yourself suggest there is some evidence of some disturbance followed by self course correction. 6. Aarti, I don't think that it is anyone's case if any noise pertaining to reader-list is directed at this or that person, or a group so long as it is posted on the reader-list. On reader list any noise in a sense is directed against all those who read that post. Lets put it this way I used sarai to make noise because I was perhaps certain that there would be some sort of response. I am happy that you have responded. I am glad that this irritated you to such a degree that you were compelled to write almost one thousand five hundred words to articulate your position and your views regarding an issue of utmost importance. The poet asks, 'Kahin mumkin hai saqi na rahe, jaam rahe?' I would like to believe that all of us here saqi's in a sense and we try to intoxicate each other with the jaam of our thoughts and our world. I take that you gulped and coughed but I take that spill in good spirit. Warm regards Nazo On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear Nazneen, > > I am not going to get into an interminable exchange on this, an exchange > which you have demonstrated unlimited energy for in your interactions with > other list members, but I confess, I have not the capacity for. So very > quick responses to the substantial points you raise because I think they > pertain both to what you see as a modus operandi for getting action - > "making a lot of noise"- as well as the premises on which a discussion of > list protocols can ensue. > > >> >> Could I suggest that what appears to you as an 'institutional obsession'/ >> 'irritating'/ 'intellectually lazy' argument may in fact be an 'appeal to >> authority'. In a virtual world where this list floats, with nameless places >> and place less names, the only clear and distinct sign which appears to me >> was a sarai.net address. This is a sarai.reader list and I think it is >> common sense to address my raves and rants concerning the list to the most >> visible and perhaps the most stable of all landmarks. I agree with you >> completely that sarai's institutional stake is limited to providing a >> context >> > > I am unconvinced by 'appeals to authority' because I think you deliberately > misunderstand what the nature of authority is in this case. Sarai has > explicitly in this and other instances made clear that its jurisdiction as > far as the reader-list goes extends to providing a context, and an > administrative function. There is no ambiguity in this position at all. In > doing so Sarai also makes clear that the responsibility for its health and > functioning thereby devolves onto all who participate in it. If we all > together cannot devise forms of communication and conversation which > contribute to its health then the list will die. And this is not the first > time that an online platform dies for such reasons. If such a situation were > to come to pass we would only hold our selves responsible, not Sarai because > it failed to clean up when the list community made a pig's ear of it. I do > not see how nameless places and placeless names are an argument for > intervention, or an argument for Sarai's intervention in the form of > regulation. It is too easy to posit absolute anarchy on the one hand, solved > through legitimate institutional intervention. > > Does this mean I am opposed to regulation? Not at all. I think if all of us > have a conversation regarding the protocols that we think collectively would > make the list a better forum for discussion, by all means these protocols > must be put in place. You will notice that I have responded positively to > vivek's suggestion, with a qualifier, which I am submitting to the list > community at large. I am opposed to the way in which you say "I think all of > us who are non-sarai expect an intervention from Sarai". All of us do not. > Or at least we are not agreed on what the terms of this intervention are to > be. I am also taking exception to the way in which you hail Vivek's response > as a gesture of greater value simply because he has a sarai.net address. > > Autonomous communities come with a great deal of responsibility and its up > to all of us to take this seriously. The only reason I am belabouring this > point is because I have read mail after mail from you where you posit Sarai > as a judgment-delivering body when in fact neither does Sarai view itself in > this fashion, nor in fact do a majority of list members. And you explicitly > foist onto people who happen to work at Sarai a greater articulative power > when in fact they are explicity disavowing it, as you did in your > interaction with Iram. > > >> And I laud this, 'gesture' but ultimately when push comes to shove, as in >> Radhikarajen's instance, it was left only to the discretion of list admin to >> take a call. >> > > I'd like to submit that what you define as a 'gesture' and this is not the > first time you have done so, is not a 'gesture' alone. It is in fact the > structure of this web community. Therefore there is no moral highground that > Sarai is seeking to occupy (which you have also alleged) when Shuddha and > Iram make clear what the terms of their engagement are. They are simply > trying to explain to you, yet again, the basic architecture of list > functioning. Regarding the discretion of the list admin. Yes, it was finally > left to the list admin. But I can say with confidence that the occasions on > which this has occurred can be counted on the fingers of one hand. This, for > a list which has been in existence now for almost 7 years, where 'turbulent' > would be a mild adjective to describe conversation, is, I can assure you, > extraordinary. I would actually read this in exactly the reverse way in > which you choose to. That it in fact testifies to the fact that we can > course correct, and have done so, without constantly asking Sarai to > intervene, and actually, and this is what irritates me, making intervention > a moral imperative on Sarai's part. > > > I don't see any reason why I should not direct my rants for punitive action >> to a sarai.net address. It makes more sense to one to write to the >> non-interventionist Sponsor of this list than to address them to a >> fsrnkashmir at gmail.com or aashu.gupta20 at gmail.com not because by directing >> to these mail address I would be diluting the issue but because I guess by >> deliberately dragging sarai's name I hoped to provoke perhaps a lot more >> people, >> >> Which was the intended objective. I have always believe that one should >> make a lot of noise if one is uncomfortable with the way in which things are >> being done. >> > > Certainly one must make a lot of noise. But who must this noise be directed > to? On this we disgaree fundamentally. You think it is more effective to > lobby "sponsors", as you so charmingly put it. I think we should address > everyone who is part of this community. If the structure of the reader-list > were other than what it was, then yes, demands for "punitive action" should > be directed solely at Sarai. But that is not how the reader-list functions > or has functioned. So there can be no demands for "punitive action" at all. > There can be discussions amongst all of us regarding how to regulate > conversation in a manner that we all find productive. Unfortunately you see > this as a rhetorical gesture on Sarai's part. I am trying to tell you it is > not. > > > > >> I consider this strategy far more engaging and an exercise in thinking >> together than say, for instance, without sounding rude to you, writing >> intellectually engaging stuff like- 'Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be. Quiet. Do >> Not Speak. You embarrass and insult yourself.' But of course this was >> written with respect to a specific context but still, the above remark >> pertains very much to a broad discussion concerning how we engage on the >> reader list. >> > > I actually do not see this remark as being any less intellectually engaging > than some of your own writing. But lets leave that aside. That remark was > made as a specific response to a person who has used language in a manner > that is beyond any schema of justification. All I asked was that they desist > from speech, followed by a friendly reminder of the fact that he was > insulting and embarrasing himself. I agree its not elevated conversation, I > also agree that it is in no way a model for list interaction, and I would be > the first to admit that one should desist from this form of speech. But > given the kind of speech and the long dure of this speech that it was > directed against, I am loathe to apologise for this stray remark. > > I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. And keeping recent calls for > economy of articulation in mind, I will not be engaging with you on this > anymore. > > Warm regards > Aarti > > > > >> >> Warm regards >> >> Nazo >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >>> I think this is a good idea but I am not entirely convinced. I fear it >>> might lead to a situation in which conversations might dry up quite fast >>> because often an exchange consists of people responding quite quickly to >>> positions. Are we sure we want to impose a moratorium this strict wherein it >>> becomes impossible for me to engage with six mails I might wish to, or >>> respond to a thread where several people are coming in at the same time. I >>> also recognise though that in a moment marked by the excess of too many >>> words some economy of articulation would be very welcome. So can this be >>> modified to say that I am allowed one response to an ongoing thread only, >>> and one new thread which I initiate? >>> >>> best >>> Aarti >>> >>> P.S And Nazneen, without sounding rude I am beginning to tire of your >>> institutional obsession with Sarai. It has been made clear over and over >>> again that Sarai's institutional stake in this list is limited to providing >>> the context. This is as it should be. I used to work at Sarai, I do not >>> anymore. My relationship with the list extends from before I joined Sarai, >>> continued while I worked there, and sustains now that I do not. I see no >>> reason why my stake in this list is reduced or altered because Sarai no >>> loner happens to be my employer. Those at Sarai are not judges on high who >>> will determine how everyone else who has spent as much time contributing to >>> the discussions and general health of this list over now 7 years, nor should >>> we force them to become that. I think in different ways those who work at >>> Sarai and are members of the reader list have expressed tehir unwillingness >>> and discomfort with this regulatory role that you insist on attributing to >>> them. So please lets think together about this. I find this constant >>> petitioning to Sarai very irritating and I also think its intellectually >>> lazy. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < >>> nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Vivek, >>>> >>>> Thank you for a thought provoking post. Undoubtedly yours is perhaps the >>>> first instance, when we have someone from sarai.net seriously taking up >>>> a >>>> initiative to put in place modalities of engagement, in his personal >>>> capacity. >>>> >>>> I unhesitatingly endorse your move. >>>> >>>> Further on, I suggest that the list admin set a deadline of a week's >>>> time >>>> for any discussion on this issue. After the completion of such a >>>> deadline, >>>> this rule must come into pace. Despite Shuddha's insistence, in this >>>> morning's riposte to Radhakrishnan's mail, I think, insofar as all of us >>>> here who are non sarai.net, we expect some sort of initiative from >>>> sarai. I >>>> am certainly not in a position, none whatsoever, to dictate the terms of >>>> engagement but nevertheless, I feel your suggestion needs to be taken up >>>> seriously by all concerned. >>>> >>>> May I suggest that responses that belong to different threads be >>>> restricted >>>> to one post, instead of just one post a day. Regarding content, may I >>>> also >>>> suggest that a provocation and its response must not include any ad >>>> homenium >>>> remarks. A similar warning must be issued against any such post, >>>> followed by >>>> dismissal. >>>> >>>> I would urge everyone one who is a regular sarai express junkie to >>>> respond >>>> to Vivek's timely intervention. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> >>>> Nazo >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Shahnawaz Khan >>> >wrote: >>>> >>>> > Sounds Good. Amazing if people would be able to hold their trash with >>>> them >>>> > for the night. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Aashish Gupta < >>>> aashu.gupta20 at gmail.com >>>> > >wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Completely agreed. Very innovative. >>>> > > Aashish >>>> > > _________________________________________ >>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > > >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From vivek at sarai.net Wed Oct 1 08:35:38 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:35:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] it was just a thought Message-ID: <48E2E902.7070706@sarai.net> Hi-- Just to clarify that what I made was a proposal, certainly open to modification and/or disagreement or throwing out altogether. So Aarti, I of course take and welcome your suggestions for modifications in that spirit (though I don't know yet if I agree with you, am still thinking). I don't think any of us can say for sure what would work unless we try something out and see what happens. I think many of us on this list think some very few very basic very clear protocols might help this list to thrive even better. And I think most of us do want this list to thrive. As with many of the issues we discuss, there is a shared sense of commitment, even some shared bits of vision and yet-- no foolproof solutions. V From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 09:33:05 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:03:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] it was just a thought References: <48E2E902.7070706@sarai.net> Message-ID: Hi Vivek and all. I am constantly short of time, and do wish that the numbers of mails I receive could somehow come down, however, I see nothing wrong the way the reader list is going. Just because of a bad phase that the list went through, let us not change the modus operandi so drastically. We just need to be able to ignore the trolls and mind our language. We are doing fine. No bail out needed. Thanks TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vivek Narayanan" To: "sarai list" Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:05 PM Subject: [Reader-list] it was just a thought > Hi-- Just to clarify that what I made was a proposal, certainly open to > modification and/or disagreement or throwing out altogether. > > So Aarti, I of course take and welcome your suggestions for > modifications in that spirit (though I don't know yet if I agree with > you, am still thinking). > > I don't think any of us can say for sure what would work unless we try > something out and see what happens. I think many of us on this list > think some very few very basic very clear protocols might help this list > to thrive even better. And I think most of us do want this list to > thrive. As with many of the issues we discuss, there is a shared sense > of commitment, even some shared bits of vision and yet-- no foolproof > solutions. > > V > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Oct 1 10:49:41 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:49:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Will Wall Street's Meltdown Turn America Into a Police State? Message-ID: <976EA174-927F-4716-BABD-17B543F2334A@sarai.net> Dear All, appended below is a very well written blog post on the present financial turbulence. warmly jeebesh quotes from the blog: "Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show" recently juxtaposed Bush's address on the financial cataclysm with his pre-invasion speech in 2003 and found -- surprise! -- they were exactly the same." Will Wall Street's Meltdown Turn America Into a Police State? By Scott Thill, AlterNet. Posted September 30, 2008. "Raw capitalism is dead." -- Henry Paulson, U.S. Treasury secretary "Can't we just all go out and say things are OK?" -- President Bush, to congressional leaders during bailout negotiations I'm not much of an Army Times reader, but after reading that a brigade was shipping from Iraq in October to serve as "an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks" in the homeland right before the election, my antennae perked up. Same as they did when I read that an electoral college doomsday scenario exists in which Dick Cheney casts the deciding vote that gives McCain-Palin the White House. That is, if Cheney and Bush don't take it for themselves. That may sound like fantasy, but don't kill the messenger. They are all strands of the Gordian knot the Bush administration has tied around the neck of the American people for the last two presidential terms, best represented today by the failed bailout of banks, brokers and other complicit parties that have since jacked the American people out of trillions. And while the Army Times revelation or election doomsday may turn out to be paranoia rather than prescience, the evidence just isn't there. Like I said: antennae. They've come in handy as bullshit detectors since Bush stole the election from a flat-footed Al Gore and set about engineering the greatest transfer of public wealth into private hands in American history. If you factor in Monday's failed takeover, as well as the $5 trillion the American people now owe thanks to the "bailout" of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, not to mention the continuing hyper-expensive occupation of Iraq and so on, our citizenry is now so far in the hole that it's pointless griping about numbers. If you want one, use the figure put forth by Dennis Kucinich: half a quadrillion dollars. We have evolved past the point of economic or geopolitical reality and entered a phase of pure concept. And all vectors of that phase point toward the conclusion that the proverbial shit has totally hit the fan -- head on, and all over again. Meet the New Rome, Same as the Old Rome "Franklin Roosevelt had to save capitalism from itself," Los Angeles Times business editor Tom Petruno told me as Washington Mutual and Wachovia became the latest banking dominoes to fall. "Is history repeating?" Indeed, it is, as one could tell from the repetitive usage of loaded terms and phrases like "Great Depression," "meltdown," "apocalypse," "Armageddon" and more to describe the just-on-time cratering of the American economy. After the strange bedfellows in both parties torpedoed Bush, Bernanke and Paulson's so-called bailout, more than $1 trillion of market value in American equities disappeared in a single day. The Dow Jones average set a record for quickest suicide dive in a single day. Other indexes sunk to multiyear lows, wiping out years of value, and stocks across the board went negative like Ann Coulter. In fact, the only major stock that actually advanced on Monday was Campbell Soup. Can there be a more fitting metaphor for the American economy stuck beneath the Bush administration's thumb? But the reruns, and their loaded terminology, are merging: Bush himself is just another iteration of the infamous "New World Order" instituted by his father while trying to, what else, convince the American public that it needed to go to war against Saddam Hussein. The revisionism is transparent, befitting a government that cares nothing of what its people actually think. Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show" recently juxtaposed Bush's address on the financial cataclysm with his pre-invasion speech in 2003 and found -- surprise! -- they were exactly the same. This is a long way of saying that this particularly frightening crux of historical geopolitics, fascism and environmental calamity has been a long time coming. Failing banks? Deregulation. Endless war? Homeland security. Total information awareness? Transparent government. Bankrupt economy? The fundamentals are strong. "Here's my question," Petruno adds. "If this is remembered as Black September, will that end up being too gentle a reference to what actually happened to the American financial system this month? It is beyond comprehension for people who have been on Wall Street their entire lives. I can only imagine how absolutely stunned the American public must be. Stunned, and very afraid." It should be. From a military brigade armed for action in the homeland in blatant transgression of Posse Comitatus to what ex-hedge funder and financial personality Jim Cramer recently called "financial terrorism," the United States is pushing forward back. To start with, the bailout was obvious theft, but our situation is more precarious than you think. The hyperreal credit default swap market, which few understand although it is estimated to involve tens if not hundreds of global trillions, is faltering under the weight of its own Ponzi origins. The scenario significantly worsens once you factor in the given that countries like China and others who have denominated their loans in dollars are shouldering our exploding debt, along with oil-soaked sovereign wealth funds from nations whose civil liberties records suck ass. As I wrote last year on this clusterfuck, if the Chinese call in our debts and oil-producing countries decide to peg their petrodollars to the euro, you can more or less kiss the dollar goodbye. Which means the last thing you'll need to worry about is your stocks, retirement or credit cards. You will instead worry whether or not the cash you have on hand will be worth anything at all. That is the loaded gun that bankers, brokers and the White House is holding to the public's head, as I write. That trillion erased on Monday, as well as the trillions that have been lost and will be lost in the coming months, was nothing more than a hostage situation engineered by the Bush administration, the Federal Reserve and their partners in crime in finance, insurance and real estate business. They don't call that sector FIRE for nothing. Fire destroys everything and leaves little in its catastrophic wake. Which raises the question: What's left to burn? "I think our economic situation can get much worse," argues Danny Schechter, the veteran producer and author whose 2006 indie documentary "In Debt We Trust" covered this volatile territory long before CNN would. "Jobless claims are already at a seven-year high, but the government is worried about the reaction from Asia. We are living on other countries' money, and when that spigot gets cut off, we will be in deeper doo-doo. Part of the reason for the scale of the bailout is to show Asia and sovereign wealth funds that we will protect their interests." But for how long? The Bush administration and Congress' disdain for the American people has been painfully obvious, so it's hard to believe they will call from sky-high Dubai to see how we are doing after making off with almost all of our money. "It's a high-stakes gamble, which is why Paulson tried to do it quickly in a climate of shock and crisis," Shechter says. "He knew that the longer it takes, the more opposition it will attract. This plan, if eventually passed, will pre-empt the next president from doing anything about it, because there will be no money. They are wrecking the government by wrecking the economy first." That shock doctrine, as Naomi Klein explained in her brilliant book of the same name, has foisted this same kind of disaster capitalism on country after country over the last century. Klein's book is littered with democracies that slept their way through coups and takeovers, entranced by one simulation or another. The United States was plugged into a matrix that onetime White House press secretary Ari Fleischer described as "an American way of life," adding without deceit that "it should be the goal of policy makers to protect the American way of life." By destroying it? Mission accomplished. "This is the September of surprise," Schechter concluded, "not a war on Iran but on America." Civil War, the Rerun? So, what's the next step for the shoe yet to drop? Perhaps the Army Times has the clues: (The brigade) may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack. ... The 1st BCT's soldiers also will learn how to use "the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded," 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them. Like every move the Bush administration has ever made, from the Patriot Act to the occupation of Iraq and down to bankrupting the American economy, this maneuver is a solution in search of a problem that it seems destined to create. Look around you. Housing is over. Stocks are nosediving. The banks are gone. War is ceaseless. Civil liberties are disappearing. Nerds at the Federal Reserve and the Treasury are taking hostages. It is madness. And mad people have a tendency to infect everyone around them. The difference is that when you go mad ... well, that's the question mark: What will happen? Ask the late Iman Morales, who went crazy in Brooklyn on a ledge 10 feet above ground and was illegally tasered by New York police officers, eventually falling to his death, immobilized. A perfect metaphor for our economy, sure, but it's also the type of literal shock we might be awaiting, as the November election creeps nearer and shit begins to hit the fan with ferocity. Many of us so-called alternative journos are not conspiracy nuts, but realists. We look at galvanizing leaders like Barack Obama, America's next president, and compare his impact to that of Lincoln, Kennedy or King -- without forgetting that all three were eventually assassinated. We are the type of realists who live through two Bush presidents, both of whom configured a New World Order, with and without the approval of the American people and the world at large. The type of realists that notice that after 9/11, we couldn't fly to Vegas, but Osama bin Laden's family was flown out of the country on government charter. And here is what we see today: Crowds protesting in the streets, the people's money wiped out thanks to the Bush administration's latest economic shock and awe. An army brigade matter-of-factly betraying Posse Comitatus for the purpose of crowd control. The public trust and wealth almost robbed cleanly with congressional approval. In other words, we see another unfolding coup, which is to say, a rerun. And there is no telling what the future may hold, or whether or not we are connecting vectors that should remain solitary. But our math has worked just fine in the past -- better than Ben Bernanke and Henry Paulson's math, that's for sure. And we'd love to be wrong about what's coming. But unfortunately that isn't up to us, and it never has been: It's up to the Bush administration. And it has never failed to let us down. http://www.alternet.org/workplace/100689/will_wall_street's_meltdown_turn_america_into_a_police_state/?page=1 From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Oct 1 11:09:22 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:09:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Figures" and "Scenarios" Message-ID: dear all, here is a fascinating "advise" on fate of "saving" (money) in moments of deep financial turmoil. It's a bit funny, as the only possible faith is the State's ability to survive with it's wealth. Rest all gone into thin air! If you want to save your ulcers keep your faith in the State steadfast :). this financial crisis is going to sweep the world, many such pedagogic ventures will be launched. so please be prepared :). When solid melts into air it is very difficult to understand how the solid is going to look again.! Even the gigantic (world biggest) philanthropist and innovator in the first whiff of a crisis evokes the hungry to save his empire. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=abOlWWazprk4&refer=home Sept. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Microsoft Corp. founder Bill Gates said the U.S. financial crisis would likely reduce support of Western governments for programs to combat hunger, poverty and disease to which his foundation has contributed $17 billion. ``There are the rich-world economies and the developing- world economies and, while the degree to which they are linked is not well understood, when one suffers it can't be good for the other,'' Gates said in a Bloomberg News interview yesterday after speaking at a United Nations event in New York. ``Rich- world budgets may not have room for increased generosity.'' It will be interesting to follow the kind of "figures" and "scenarios" that get chalked out now. warmly jeebesh -------------------------------- ‘Is My Money Safe?’ and Other Questions to AskBy RON LIEBER and TARA SIEGEL BERNARD Published: September 29, 2008 For all of you on Main Street who have been watching the turmoil on Wall Street for the last few weeks, Monday’s shockwaves rattled even the most steadfastThe day began with the announcement that another big bank — Wachovia — had been taken over, just days after Washington Mutual collapsed and was sold. In early afternoon, the House rejected the bailout package for the financial industry. Stocks plunged, with the Dow ending the day down nearly 778 points in the worst single-day drop in two decades. What is a regular investor to make of it all? What about people who have money in bank accounts? Below are some answers to questions that are probably on your mind. Q. Why did the stock market fall so far so fast on Monday? A. The element of surprise surely didn’t help, since everyone was expecting the bailout bill to pass. There may have been a bit of investor disgust thrown in, too, a sense that our representatives in Washington just don’t get it. Fear may be the biggest driver, however — the worry that it may be weeks or longer before companies can get the affordable, short-term loans they need to finance their operations. Without easy access to that money, it’s hard to run a profit-making operation on a day-to-day basis, let alone grow over the long haul. The professional investors who often drive big market moves don’t want to hold onto stocks to see if things will really get that bad. Q. What’s likely to happen in the markets over the next few days? A. It’s possible that Monday’s market moves will spook members of the House of Representatives enough that they will be willing to change their votes with only a modest amount of compromise. Or, there may be hasty efforts to write a new bill from scratch. This will take days, however, not hours, since Tuesday is the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashana. Stocks may rebound, at least somewhat, if another similar bill emerges. But much will depend on the revisions. Q. Is any investment truly safe right now? A. As long as you trust the United States government, sure. Plenty of banks, like HSBC Direct and Capital One are offering online savings accounts paying more than 3 percent. These accounts have all the normal Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation protections of at least $100,000. Also, the Treasury Department is currently insuring investors who had holdings in money market mutual funds as of Sept. 19, as long as the fund company pays to participate. Q. What about Treasury bills? A. Treasuries are issued and backed by the United States government. But since throngs of investors have rushed into these investments, it has pushed their yields down. Way down. Some Treasuries, with maturities in the one-week to three-month range, are yielding less than 1 percent, anywhere from 0.10 percent to 0.50 percent. Clearly, many investors are willing to accept paltry yields as long as they know their money is secure. Another government offering is Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities, or TIPS, which protect investors against rising inflation. That may be one result of any big government bailout. Q. My retirement portfolio has been wrecked by this. How should I respond? A. Continue to save. Big losses mean you’ll need that much more time, or good news, to bring your balances back to where they need to be for you to retire comfortably. If your employer matches your contributions, this is a great time to take advantage of the largess. As for whether you should pile into beaten down stocks, no one knows how much further the markets will fall or how long they’ll take to bounce back. But people who move their savings to ultrasafe investments and then leave them there usually miss out on the gains when the markets come back. If you need to do that to sleep at night or avoid stomach ulcers, then do what you have to do. But it may cost you in quality of life come retirement time. Q. But what if I am about to retire? Then what? A. Leaving the work force at a time like this creates big problems. Not only is your portfolio down, but you need to start withdrawing from it. So you are essentially locking in your losses. If your portfolio has taken a big hit, it may be time to seriously consider delaying retirement. Working just a few years more can make a big difference. Or, a part-time job may keep you from having to dip into your portfolio before it recovers. To get a better idea of how much you can afford to withdraw, you can test different amounts with a retirement income calculator on the Web, like T. Rowe Price’s. Q. With things looking increasingly gloomy, though, why not allocate extra cash to other types of savings or paying down debt? A. If you’re saving for a downpayment, you could put enough money in your retirement account to match any employer contribution. Then, use whatever money you have left for the downpayment fund, which should be in an ultrasafe account. The same logic goes for a teenager’s college fund, which ought to be mostly in steady investments by now. There are nice tax breaks on 529 college savings accounts, too. Yes, paying down debt, especially high-interest credit card debt, is always a good idea, though it’s probably best to take advantage of employer matches on retirement savings first. Q. Is it time to buy stocks? A. Like gambling? This is a great time to make bets on the wide price swings that we’re seeing in some stocks and entire sectors of the market. Just be prepared to lose big, as plenty of professionals have done of late. Q. I’m worried sick about my parents, who rely on stock dividends for their income. What will happen to them? A. It’s not a great time to be relying on dividends. We’ve seen plenty of companies cut them. (Citibank did so on Monday as part of its acquisition of Wachovia’s banking operations.) Still, if your parents were planning all along to keep their shares until they die and live only off the dividends and Social Security, perhaps now is the time to encourage them to be selfish. They could sell some shares and live well now, even if it means you’ll get less later when they pass on. Q. I’m a long-term investor and prefer not to see my retirement balances as real numbers for now. So the crisis doesn’t feel like it has hit me financially yet. Should I be doing anything defensively? A. It’s not yet clear how much more the crisis will affect employment levels. Still, this seems like the best moment in years to have a few months of cash set aside in one of those online savings accounts just in case you lose your job or face some large expense that you haven’t predicted. Q. What’s the next shoe to drop? A. It seems certain that it will be harder for consumers to borrow money in the next year or two than it was earlier this decade. How much harder isn’t clear yet. It will be more difficult for people who need jumbo mortgages than for those whose lenders can simply sell off their loans to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. Home-equity lenders are already cutting plenty of people off, while credit card companies are lowering credit limits on others. Q. What about more bank failures? A. They will happen. In recent days, we’ve seen the F.D.I.C. getting out in front of troubles at big banks like Wachovia and Washington Mutual, by arranging for other banks to take over their consumer accounts. What’s less clear, however, is how many healthy institutions are left to take in other big banks that may run into trouble. As always, stay within F.D.I.C. deposit limits. Then, the worst-case scenario is that it will take a couple of days to extract your funds from a failed bank. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/business/yourmoney/30money.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin From rajeshr at csds.in Wed Oct 1 11:22:12 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:22:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] `Racial Redress and Citizenship in Contemporary South Africa'- talk by Adam Habib Message-ID: Friday, 10th October, 2008 Adam Habib will speak on Racial Redress and Citizenship in Contemporary South Africa 11 AM, Seminar Room, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054 South Africa's democratic experiment is confronted with a central political dilemma: how to advance redress and address historical injustices while building a single national identity. This issue lies at the heart of many heated debates over issues such as economic policy, affirmative action, and skills shortages. Adam Habib is Deputy Vice-Chancellor- Research, Innovation and Advancement at the University of Johannesburg, South Africa. He has held academic appointments over the last decade at the Universities of Durban-Westville and KwaZulu-Natal and the Human Science Research Council. Prior to being appointed Executive Director of the Democracy and Governance Programme of the Human Science Research Council in 2004, he served as the founding director of the Centre for Civil Society and a research professor in the School of Development Studies at the University of KwaZulu-Natal. Habib has served as co-editor of both the social science academic journal, Transformation and the official disciplinary journal of the South African Association of Political Science, Politkon. He also sits on the editorial boards of Voluntas, South African Labour Bulletin, and UNESCO's 2009 World Social Science Report. Habib's research interests include democratisation and development, contemporary social movements, giving and solidarity, institutional reform, race, redress and citizenship, and South Africa's role in Africa and beyond. His recent publications include (ed. with Kristina Bentley) Racial Redress and Citizenship in South Africa, Cape Town: HSRC Press (2008); and (ed. with Richard Ballard and Imraan Valodia) Voices of Protest: Social Movements in Post-Apartheid South Africa. Pietermaritzburg: UKZN Press (2006) From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 11:25:06 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:25:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] a better thought In-Reply-To: <842505.7400.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <842505.7400.qm@web51403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809302255l2f37d64dn36925ab0e0067c72@mail.gmail.com> And there should be a security deposit. Where do i send mine ? On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:03 PM, Yousuf wrote: > I have a better idea - it can make Sarai rich. Let us start charging people > money for posting messages. The larger or more frequent mails you post, the > more money you pay. > I can see who will be the worst affected by this. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Tue, 9/30/08, mahmood farooqui wrote: > > > From: mahmood farooqui > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] a thought > > To: "Vivek Narayanan" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 7:12 PM > > I strongly second Vivek's proposal... > > > > 2008/9/30 Vivek Narayanan > > > > > Monica et al., > > > > > > I wonder if some of the issues and difficulties over > > the reader list > > > might be addressed by introducing (and strictly and > > universally > > > enforcing) just one simple, unambiguous instrumental > > rule that we could > > > all agree on: > > > > > > each member of the reader list is allowed no more than > > one post per day > > > / 24-hour period. > > > > > > An exception could be made solely for announcements, > > and that too of an > > > urgent or time-bound nature. If the member violates > > this rule of > > > conduct and makes, say, two or three posts in a single > > day, then they > > > are first issued a warning. The second or third time > > they do it, let's > > > say, they are off the list. Simple as that. > > > > > > I think this could, at the very least, force us all to > > exercise a > > > certain restraint before we hit the send button, > > choosing and focus our > > > energies on making the postings we consider more > > substantial or > > > important, combining thoughts together in a single > > mail. Since the > > > dominance of certain issues on the list is largely an > > effect of > > > overposting by a small handful of individuals, I think > > this might also > > > help to even out the range of issues that are > > discussed on this list. > > > > > > (To Radhakrishnan-- I don't think we can > > artificially enforce diversity > > > on this list, but we can give it more room to > > breathe.) > > > > > > On a very basic level it encourages respect for other > > peoples' inboxes. > > > People can write their second message, save it and cue > > it up on their > > > mail programs, then send it after a day (after perhaps > > reading it over a > > > second time to see if it's really necessary). > > > > > > As far as I can think-- I don't think anything > > will be lost by this rule? > > > > > > I realise that this procedural rule can be > > circumvented through the use > > > of multiple aliases and heteronyms, and god knows the > > list is no > > > stranger to that, but even in that case I think it > > will help restraint, > > > and prevent cases where, for instance, we get 10 > > mindless rants by the > > > same person over the course of a day, or a situation > > where an individual > > > replies to every single mail on the list, regardless > > of whether they > > > have anything interesting to add or not. > > > > > > I also realise that, with this mail, I have violated > > the rule myself! > > > But were we to introduce and agree on this, I would > > certainly abide by it. > > > > > > Vivek > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 13:32:31 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:32:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] it was just a thought In-Reply-To: References: <48E2E902.7070706@sarai.net> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810010102v6265916o8314020b52847aa3@mail.gmail.com> I think a one month moratorium of the sort Vivek suggests is a good idea. The issue can be revisited on the 1st of November and the list community can take a decision on whether the quality of interactions have changed substantially for the better. On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 9:33 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Hi Vivek and all. > I am constantly short of time, and do wish that the numbers of mails I > receive could somehow come down, however, I see nothing wrong the way the > reader list is going. Just because of a bad phase that the list went > through, let us not change the modus operandi so drastically. We just need > to be able to ignore the trolls and mind our language. We are doing fine. > No > bail out needed. > Thanks > TaraPrakash > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vivek Narayanan" > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:05 PM > Subject: [Reader-list] it was just a thought > > > > Hi-- Just to clarify that what I made was a proposal, certainly open to > > modification and/or disagreement or throwing out altogether. > > > > So Aarti, I of course take and welcome your suggestions for > > modifications in that spirit (though I don't know yet if I agree with > > you, am still thinking). > > > > I don't think any of us can say for sure what would work unless we try > > something out and see what happens. I think many of us on this list > > think some very few very basic very clear protocols might help this list > > to thrive even better. And I think most of us do want this list to > > thrive. As with many of the issues we discuss, there is a shared sense > > of commitment, even some shared bits of vision and yet-- no foolproof > > solutions. > > > > V > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 17:19:21 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:49:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: request to unsubscribe References: <49966ea80809261934y39b398femf745376945f5ea9f@mail.gmail.com> <49966ea80809292037k7f6fce8fq8b63ddb8666bacd5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <143D9496F624461DBABDC3CCDD647D54@shabori> Hi. To unsubscribe visit https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list It is a public list where people subscribe/unsubscribe on their own wishes. I believe unless you do something really bad, you won't be unsubscribed by the administrators. Hope that helps ----- Original Message ----- From: "mallica mishra" To: Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 11:37 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: request to unsubscribe > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: mallica mishra > Date: Sep 27, 2008 8:04 AM > Subject: request to unsubscribe > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > To the concerned, > > > I would like to withdraw my subscription to the reader-list-kindly process > the same and unsubscribe - > > > > Thank you, > Mallica. > > > > > > Dr Mallica Misra > Mata Sundri College > University of Delhi. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 17:34:46 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:04:46 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] a thought References: DEFANGED[504]:<48E22523.4040801@sarai.net><2ad82fd30809300717t64029112j637d9656aa02491d@mail.gmail.com><169ff67c0809300741o5d2a7cbw6761caa62e5c2660@ " " mail.gmail.com><48c2916d0809300906w464ddaefq37ca252be65ad233@mail.gmail.com><169ff67c0809301005r478f4972v603f36b404b3e5be@mail.gmail.com><48c2916d0809301102u24554556q1a613c8b07d87749@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809301500h7a12260eg3b8a80a0ad45b23d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What I gathered from what Nazneen has been saying in the first of all mails, especially those written to Iram, is that she doesn't want people to send her personal mails on the topics discussed on the reader list. Was there something else? If Iram did, I couldn't find anything indecent about it. "baat ye hai ke baat kuch bhi naheen" There is not much to be so touchy about it. I know the list has been having some tough times, but keep the administration out of it. There are ways to avoid receiving mails. Technology gives us that option. It is a democratic list any undue exercise of control by anyone at Sarai will make the members think in the same way as quoted in Nazneen's mail "Baithe bhi naheen the, nikaal bhi diye gae." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nazneen Anand Shamsi" To: "Aarti Sethi" Cc: "Monica Narula" ; ; "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] a thought > Dear Aarti, > > 1. I am enchanted by your response. I feel let down that you may not wish > to > engage with me on this issue anymore. I hope otherwise. Moreover, I am > amazed that you can easily gauge my 'unlimited' energy to interact with > members on this in the same realm as you must have perhaps measured other > list members 'unlimited' energy to interact with me. That you choose to > ignore other list members tenacity in this wonderful exchange of > 'unlimited > energies' is a different matter altogether, something which I would rather > not comment on. I would leave that to your good judgment. > > Coming to your post, first of all Aarti, thank you very much for your > generosity by replying to my post with such care and concern. When I was > outlying my arguments I was not thinking about a modus operandi, but > rather > to tell you the truth, I was thinking about modus vivendi. I was deeply > concerned about how we as list members are going to and should deal with > our > differences. I still am and will always be. > > Shuddha painstakingly mentions a range of conversations that reader list > has > witnessed over past seven years, I see that the only one strand which > binds > these conversations together is perhaps of -difference-. The question for > all us here is how do we look at this tenuous thread of -difference-. I > would like to imagine sarai as an online mehfil and as the poet suggests > any > mehfil will attract people of many callings and persuasions. Over the > years > subscribers relationship to the readerlist could be summed up as- > > Dil tujhe debhi gaye, apna sila le bhi gaye, > Aa ke baithe bhi na the, ke nikaale bhi gaye. > > Many subscribers have in fact given their 'dil' and taken their 'sila' in > the process of making this list lively but now it seems that the issue has > become more around the way in which one engages or should engage with this > mehfil. 'Nehin mehfil mein jinhen baat bhi karne ka shaoor' is what we > have > to deal with. > > > 2. As you would have known that appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. > To > begin with, you are absolutely right when you say that I have > 'deliberately > misunderstood' this. I have. Sometimes in order to do a mischief, one > needs > to engage in 'appeals to authority'. Even when one knows that nothing of > that sort exists. And what I did in past few weeks was perhaps nothing > less > than a mischief. I was not loyal to that unwritten code of public > conduct > which Iram so rightly and perhaps angrily alluded to in the past, I would > again take comfort from the poet who has this to say about loyalty, 'Hum > wafadar nahin, tu bhi tau dildar nahin'. I must have directed my mails to > that elusive figure of 1400 list subscribers to demonstrate some 'dildari' > on this issue. But instead of taking the due process, I choose a > direct,maybe confrontational method. Because, in all my earnestness, I > assumed that a response from Sarai would elicit an immediate discussion. > The > 'dildari' from sarai would be more useful, if you may. In the tradition of > deafening silence with which sarai takes care of this list, what vivek did > today was nothing less than a 'dildari' There was never ever in my mind an > intention to cause harm to this list, however, I will not hesitate to do > this mischief again, if I find exchanges crossing limits of decent public > conversation. Consider this a promise. > > 3. I disagree with your contention that in the event if this list fails, > then sarai will not be responsible. On the contrary a death of reader list > would be as much sarai's responsibility as it would anyone's. For are we > not > in this together? On a different note though, I find it strange that you > speak on sarai's behalf when you don't work there anymore as much as it > escapes my reasoning to read Iram's mail, as only concerned with her > individual capacity, though she communicates from a sarai.net address. > Maybe > you understand sarai's silences more than perhaps I do. I do not have any > issues on what I find an ambivalent relationship. I let it be. > > 4. Just a clarification, if you had read 'mail after mail' from me, you > would have noticed that, again and again I was either trying to elicit > some > sort of response from sarai community or asking everyone else to respond. > The silences of everyone else, including yours, were distressing. You must > have also noticed that, while replying to monica I wrote, 'I am at a loss > of words' here. Therefore the issue of me arguing for a moral imperative > on > sarai only to intervene does not arise. > > 5.In the same grain I do not take your argument about, 'structure of a web > community' as given. I would imagine a web community to be a social > construct and like any social constructs must be subject to negotiation. I > find sarai's refusal to negotiate problematic as I feel deeply > uncomfortable > while making an effort to understand silences of other list members. I > agree > that sarai as an entity will never have a policy of negotiation but at the > same time, I would expect some amount of 'dildari'. Not in a sense of > generosity because frankly speaking, I would rather that sarai be less > generous but in the sense of 'daring'. 'Idhar daring karne ko mangta hai > baap' (like Pakhiya tells Munna in Rangeela) > > I don't think issue of sarai's posting's will be solved forever by vivek's > intervention but at the same time time i would not like to believe that > there was absolute anarchy before, as you yourself suggest there is some > evidence of some disturbance followed by self course correction. > > 6. Aarti, I don't think that it is anyone's case if any noise pertaining > to > reader-list is directed at this or that person, or a group so long as it > is > posted on the reader-list. On reader list any noise in a sense is directed > against all those who read that post. Lets put it this way I used sarai to > make noise because I was perhaps certain that there would be some sort of > response. I am happy that you have responded. I am glad that this > irritated > you to such a degree that you were compelled to write almost one thousand > five hundred words to articulate your position and your views regarding an > issue of utmost importance. The poet asks, 'Kahin mumkin hai saqi na rahe, > jaam rahe?' I would like to believe that all of us here saqi's in a sense > and we try to intoxicate each other with the jaam of our thoughts and our > world. I take that you gulped and coughed but I take that spill in good > spirit. > > Warm regards > > Nazo > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > >> Dear Nazneen, >> >> I am not going to get into an interminable exchange on this, an exchange >> which you have demonstrated unlimited energy for in your interactions >> with >> other list members, but I confess, I have not the capacity for. So very >> quick responses to the substantial points you raise because I think they >> pertain both to what you see as a modus operandi for getting action - >> "making a lot of noise"- as well as the premises on which a discussion of >> list protocols can ensue. >> >> >>> >>> Could I suggest that what appears to you as an 'institutional >>> obsession'/ >>> 'irritating'/ 'intellectually lazy' argument may in fact be an 'appeal >>> to >>> authority'. In a virtual world where this list floats, with nameless >>> places >>> and place less names, the only clear and distinct sign which appears to >>> me >>> was a sarai.net address. This is a sarai.reader list and I think it is >>> common sense to address my raves and rants concerning the list to the >>> most >>> visible and perhaps the most stable of all landmarks. I agree with you >>> completely that sarai's institutional stake is limited to providing a >>> context >>> >> >> I am unconvinced by 'appeals to authority' because I think you >> deliberately >> misunderstand what the nature of authority is in this case. Sarai has >> explicitly in this and other instances made clear that its jurisdiction >> as >> far as the reader-list goes extends to providing a context, and an >> administrative function. There is no ambiguity in this position at all. >> In >> doing so Sarai also makes clear that the responsibility for its health >> and >> functioning thereby devolves onto all who participate in it. If we all >> together cannot devise forms of communication and conversation which >> contribute to its health then the list will die. And this is not the >> first >> time that an online platform dies for such reasons. If such a situation >> were >> to come to pass we would only hold our selves responsible, not Sarai >> because >> it failed to clean up when the list community made a pig's ear of it. I >> do >> not see how nameless places and placeless names are an argument for >> intervention, or an argument for Sarai's intervention in the form of >> regulation. It is too easy to posit absolute anarchy on the one hand, >> solved >> through legitimate institutional intervention. >> >> Does this mean I am opposed to regulation? Not at all. I think if all of >> us >> have a conversation regarding the protocols that we think collectively >> would >> make the list a better forum for discussion, by all means these protocols >> must be put in place. You will notice that I have responded positively to >> vivek's suggestion, with a qualifier, which I am submitting to the list >> community at large. I am opposed to the way in which you say "I think all >> of >> us who are non-sarai expect an intervention from Sarai". All of us do >> not. >> Or at least we are not agreed on what the terms of this intervention are >> to >> be. I am also taking exception to the way in which you hail Vivek's >> response >> as a gesture of greater value simply because he has a sarai.net address. >> >> Autonomous communities come with a great deal of responsibility and its >> up >> to all of us to take this seriously. The only reason I am belabouring >> this >> point is because I have read mail after mail from you where you posit >> Sarai >> as a judgment-delivering body when in fact neither does Sarai view itself >> in >> this fashion, nor in fact do a majority of list members. And you >> explicitly >> foist onto people who happen to work at Sarai a greater articulative >> power >> when in fact they are explicity disavowing it, as you did in your >> interaction with Iram. >> >> >>> And I laud this, 'gesture' but ultimately when push comes to shove, as >>> in >>> Radhikarajen's instance, it was left only to the discretion of list >>> admin to >>> take a call. >>> >> >> I'd like to submit that what you define as a 'gesture' and this is not >> the >> first time you have done so, is not a 'gesture' alone. It is in fact the >> structure of this web community. Therefore there is no moral highground >> that >> Sarai is seeking to occupy (which you have also alleged) when Shuddha and >> Iram make clear what the terms of their engagement are. They are simply >> trying to explain to you, yet again, the basic architecture of list >> functioning. Regarding the discretion of the list admin. Yes, it was >> finally >> left to the list admin. But I can say with confidence that the occasions >> on >> which this has occurred can be counted on the fingers of one hand. This, >> for >> a list which has been in existence now for almost 7 years, where >> 'turbulent' >> would be a mild adjective to describe conversation, is, I can assure you, >> extraordinary. I would actually read this in exactly the reverse way in >> which you choose to. That it in fact testifies to the fact that we can >> course correct, and have done so, without constantly asking Sarai to >> intervene, and actually, and this is what irritates me, making >> intervention >> a moral imperative on Sarai's part. >> >> >> I don't see any reason why I should not direct my rants for punitive >> action >>> to a sarai.net address. It makes more sense to one to write to the >>> non-interventionist Sponsor of this list than to address them to a >>> fsrnkashmir at gmail.com or aashu.gupta20 at gmail.com not because by >>> directing >>> to these mail address I would be diluting the issue but because I guess >>> by >>> deliberately dragging sarai's name I hoped to provoke perhaps a lot more >>> people, >>> >>> Which was the intended objective. I have always believe that one should >>> make a lot of noise if one is uncomfortable with the way in which things >>> are >>> being done. >>> >> >> Certainly one must make a lot of noise. But who must this noise be >> directed >> to? On this we disgaree fundamentally. You think it is more effective to >> lobby "sponsors", as you so charmingly put it. I think we should address >> everyone who is part of this community. If the structure of the >> reader-list >> were other than what it was, then yes, demands for "punitive action" >> should >> be directed solely at Sarai. But that is not how the reader-list >> functions >> or has functioned. So there can be no demands for "punitive action" at >> all. >> There can be discussions amongst all of us regarding how to regulate >> conversation in a manner that we all find productive. Unfortunately you >> see >> this as a rhetorical gesture on Sarai's part. I am trying to tell you it >> is >> not. >> >> >> >> >>> I consider this strategy far more engaging and an exercise in thinking >>> together than say, for instance, without sounding rude to you, writing >>> intellectually engaging stuff like- 'Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be. Quiet. >>> Do >>> Not Speak. You embarrass and insult yourself.' But of course this was >>> written with respect to a specific context but still, the above remark >>> pertains very much to a broad discussion concerning how we engage on the >>> reader list. >>> >> >> I actually do not see this remark as being any less intellectually >> engaging >> than some of your own writing. But lets leave that aside. That remark was >> made as a specific response to a person who has used language in a manner >> that is beyond any schema of justification. All I asked was that they >> desist >> from speech, followed by a friendly reminder of the fact that he was >> insulting and embarrasing himself. I agree its not elevated conversation, >> I >> also agree that it is in no way a model for list interaction, and I would >> be >> the first to admit that one should desist from this form of speech. But >> given the kind of speech and the long dure of this speech that it was >> directed against, I am loathe to apologise for this stray remark. >> >> I hope I have made myself abundantly clear. And keeping recent calls for >> economy of articulation in mind, I will not be engaging with you on this >> anymore. >> >> Warm regards >> Aarti >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Warm regards >>> >>> Nazo >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Aarti Sethi >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think this is a good idea but I am not entirely convinced. I fear it >>>> might lead to a situation in which conversations might dry up quite >>>> fast >>>> because often an exchange consists of people responding quite quickly >>>> to >>>> positions. Are we sure we want to impose a moratorium this strict >>>> wherein it >>>> becomes impossible for me to engage with six mails I might wish to, or >>>> respond to a thread where several people are coming in at the same >>>> time. I >>>> also recognise though that in a moment marked by the excess of too >>>> many >>>> words some economy of articulation would be very welcome. So can this >>>> be >>>> modified to say that I am allowed one response to an ongoing thread >>>> only, >>>> and one new thread which I initiate? >>>> >>>> best >>>> Aarti >>>> >>>> P.S And Nazneen, without sounding rude I am beginning to tire of your >>>> institutional obsession with Sarai. It has been made clear over and >>>> over >>>> again that Sarai's institutional stake in this list is limited to >>>> providing >>>> the context. This is as it should be. I used to work at Sarai, I do not >>>> anymore. My relationship with the list extends from before I joined >>>> Sarai, >>>> continued while I worked there, and sustains now that I do not. I see >>>> no >>>> reason why my stake in this list is reduced or altered because Sarai no >>>> loner happens to be my employer. Those at Sarai are not judges on high >>>> who >>>> will determine how everyone else who has spent as much time >>>> contributing to >>>> the discussions and general health of this list over now 7 years, nor >>>> should >>>> we force them to become that. I think in different ways those who work >>>> at >>>> Sarai and are members of the reader list have expressed tehir >>>> unwillingness >>>> and discomfort with this regulatory role that you insist on attributing >>>> to >>>> them. So please lets think together about this. I find this constant >>>> petitioning to Sarai very irritating and I also think its >>>> intellectually >>>> lazy. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < >>>> nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Vivek, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for a thought provoking post. Undoubtedly yours is perhaps >>>>> the >>>>> first instance, when we have someone from sarai.net seriously taking >>>>> up >>>>> a >>>>> initiative to put in place modalities of engagement, in his personal >>>>> capacity. >>>>> >>>>> I unhesitatingly endorse your move. >>>>> >>>>> Further on, I suggest that the list admin set a deadline of a week's >>>>> time >>>>> for any discussion on this issue. After the completion of such a >>>>> deadline, >>>>> this rule must come into pace. Despite Shuddha's insistence, in this >>>>> morning's riposte to Radhakrishnan's mail, I think, insofar as all of >>>>> us >>>>> here who are non sarai.net, we expect some sort of initiative from >>>>> sarai. I >>>>> am certainly not in a position, none whatsoever, to dictate the terms >>>>> of >>>>> engagement but nevertheless, I feel your suggestion needs to be taken >>>>> up >>>>> seriously by all concerned. >>>>> >>>>> May I suggest that responses that belong to different threads be >>>>> restricted >>>>> to one post, instead of just one post a day. Regarding content, may I >>>>> also >>>>> suggest that a provocation and its response must not include any ad >>>>> homenium >>>>> remarks. A similar warning must be issued against any such post, >>>>> followed by >>>>> dismissal. >>>>> >>>>> I would urge everyone one who is a regular sarai express junkie to >>>>> respond >>>>> to Vivek's timely intervention. >>>>> >>>>> Best >>>>> >>>>> Nazo >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Shahnawaz Khan >>>> >wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Sounds Good. Amazing if people would be able to hold their trash >>>>> > with >>>>> them >>>>> > for the night. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Aashish Gupta < >>>>> aashu.gupta20 at gmail.com >>>>> > >wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > Completely agreed. Very innovative. >>>>> > > Aashish >>>>> > > _________________________________________ >>>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> > > To unsubscribe: >>>>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> > > >>>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> > >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 18:03:05 2008 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:03:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Piece in International Herald Tribune that really annoyed me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All, One reads ridiculous pieces on feminism in the media all the time and to some extent becomes immune to them and is able laugh them off and move on. After a long time a piece annoyed me enough to respond to it. Here's a link to the piece in the International Herald Tribune and below my mail am pasting my response. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/25/asia/letter.php In some ways I suppose I'm relieved to find I can still get so angry that the only way to exorcise it is to write. Having written it, I feel compelled to inflict it on others. Shilpa Indian Feminism 101 *Shilpa Phadke* * * Mistaking one work of fiction to represent all women in a country is rather blinkered and when it's a country of the diversity and complexity of India, it borders on the ridiculous. Compounding this by attempting to pontificate on a subject about which you clearly know nothing and circulating this in an international newspaper should be a libellous act. I refer to Anand Giridharadas's piece titled 'A feminist revolution skips the liberation' in the column *Letter from India, *of 25 September 2008. The writer begins innocuously enough reviewing Meenakshi Reddy Madhavan's book 'You are Here'. The trouble begins when Reddy Madhavan's fictional protagonist Arshi drawn from her blog begins to represent all of Indian women, or at least all Indian urban women or what he calls Indian feminism. The writer says, "Indian women are trading regular bras for push-up bras, by bypassing the phase of burning bras". In doing so, he demonstrates his lamentable ignorance not just of the history of feminism in India but also in the US. A quick trawl through the internet would have told the writer that no bras were burnt. A group of protesters outside a Miss America beauty contest in Atlantic City in 1968 threw not just bras but also girdles, mops, pots and pans into a 'freedom trash can'. A look at some feminist writing would have told him that feminists don't actually view push-up bras as a great feminist victory though some of us may choose to wear them. The writer's understanding of American feminism has him trace its (supposedly decreasingly 'militant') path from Betty Friedan to Carrie Bradshaw. Clearly the writer has no little difficulty in separating fictional characters from real ones. Almost as much difficulty as he has in understanding that most basic of things: historical context. The granting of universal adult franchise and constitutional equality to women and men simultaneously in India in 1951 was not only a ripple effect of suffragette movements in the West but also reflected the social reform movement in the country and the presence of articulate women in the struggle for independence from colonial rule. It was in the 1970s that a nationwide women's movement came together to reform the laws on rape. This followed numerous disparate feminist battles in various parts of the country. In the 1980s the women's movement addressed issues of dowry, sati, female foeticide and domestic violence targeting not just the law but attacking the patriarchal ideologies that underpinned institutions. In the 1990s and 21st century the movement grapples with questions of sexual harassment and sexual desire, globalisation and beauty contests, nuclearisation and Hindu right-wing pogroms, as well as the questions of post feminism that the writer assumes are the only relevant ones. Indian feminism, yes there is such a thing, is a complex, multifaceted animal that is not a replica of the west but one born of a unique context. It encompasses many women and a reasonably large number of men who often disagree vociferously with each other in person and in print. This Indian feminism defies definition and struggles not just with concerns of gender but also of class, caste and religion. The writer appears completely in the dark about not just the various demonstrations that women have been part of on issues of gender but he seems to have completely also missed the times the women's movement has marched with the environmentalists, the workers and most recently the queer movement. None of this is intended as a critique of Reddy Madhavan's book. Her quotes in his piece tend to stick to the point – that this is a book and these are characters, who represent in some ways some women but certainly not all Indian women in all ways. However, even if it's only this small minority of women that we are talking about, there is no excuse for the writer's disapproving misrepresentation. Many of these women whom he disdains as making fat pay packets by day and kowtowing to husbands by night, work hard for their money, struggling to play the role of neutral professionals, looking good without appearing to invite trouble. Many of them agonise over how to fend off unwanted passes without making a noise about it because this will affect their careers; note *theirs, *not the man's. These women don't just "sleep around, don bug-eyed sunglasses or down mojitos", (though one fails to see why any of these should "compromise feminism") many also run households, support old parents, and bring up children. They read books, watch films, meet friends, travel, and make decisions about how to live their lives, including (but not only) their sexual lives all of which are their own business. Some may call themselves feminists. ** The writer's perception that 'real' feminism is about micro-credit in the villages reveals his unease with women like Arshi, whom he then moralistically disdains as urban sybarites seeking pleasure for itself. His facile division of Indian women, into the 'innocent' hard-working real 'feminist' peasant women whom he romanticizes and the self-centred, hedonistic, urban women wanting to 'fornicate' (do people still use such words outside of court-rooms?) while seeing men as meal tickets whom he deplores, is deeply judgemental bordering on the puritanical. (As a self indulgent corollary one might add here that micro-credit's role in the 'empowerment' of women has been contested and it has been critiqued as locating women as only good citizen subjects who will work themselves to the bone to pay off a debt.) "Modernity", he pontificates, "involves more than sin. … How many urban women chop off their hair, or choose not to procreate, or dine out alone?" Apparently the writer doesn't seem to leave his desk much to stroll in the irreverent city of Mumbai, or he might have discovered the answer is, *actually quite few*. Not only does the writer appear to be prejudiced, he is also badly informed; certainly a 'sin' when information is for the asking at the click of a mouse. If bald heads, non-procreation and dining alone are his meter of female modernity then perhaps he needs not just Indian Feminism 101, but might one also suggest Modernity 101. From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 1 19:09:48 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:09:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir's mobile phone chroniclers Message-ID: <9c06aab30810010639y584f4f64qb573e22fe9349d49@mail.gmail.com> Dear friends, This is the sort of story that really gives you a sense of the passion and fervour that goes in the making of an endless freedom struggle in Kashmir. Thought this might be of interest to members of this list as it is a list about "media and the city". These protests, their recording an uploading on YouTube, are very ordinary everyday events in Srinagar. Violence and resistance have become acts that are remarkable but not surprising, they form part of the everyday banalities of living in Srinagar. Srinagar is perhaps the most interesting city in India today. It is not as touristy as, say Pahalgam, It is a city with great character, where the people, their pain, the expression on their faces, will be etched in your memory more than the size of the Dal lake. If you haven't been to Srinagar, you have seen neither heaven nor hell. In these online videos captured by Kashmiri youth, some of that is indeed reflected. Not even a per cent of this is reflected in the Indian media. best shivam Kashmir's mobile phone chroniclers By Soutik Biswas BBC News, Srinagar http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7618092.stm Minutes after 35-year-old Javed Amir Mir was shot in the head by security forces in Srinagar, capital of Indian-administered Kashmir, a young boy recorded his death on his mobile phone camera. The shaky and grainy clip shows a blood splattered face lying on the road. You can hear the wailing women and the screaming men in the background Across the city, 25-year-old Imran Ahmed Wani's death was also recorded on mobile phones by friends rushing him to hospital after he was shot during a demonstration. In fact, Mr Wani's last days unspool effortlessly on pictures which can be seen on the mobiles of his friends - in one he is smiling at the camera, 10 days before his death; in another, life is slowly ebbing out of him as he lies, legs akimbo, in a ambulance racing to get him to the hospital. "We have all these pictures on our phones. His memories live and move with us," says his friend and mass communications student, Sheikh Suhail, 24. 'Interesting footage' As the mainly Muslim Kashmir valley erupted into protests last month after a row over transfer of land in the region snowballed into a movement for freedom from India, armies of mobile-phone toting youngsters began trawling the city to record the events. Pro-freedom protests in Srinagar A row over land has snowballed into a nationalist upsurge The images and recordings of those momentous events have been swapped between friends, or put up on popular video sharing sites. One of those, YouTube, spits out nearly 250 results when a search is done for "Srinagar protest" and many of these clips have been put up by youngsters from the valley. There are now mobile phone recordings being swapped around which have reached almost cult status. A pro-freedom procession, security forces thrashing children playing in a city park, a friend or a neighbour shot down during a protest, a funeral procession. In a way, the images and clips comprise an uneven chronicle of the troubled life and times in the valley by these "citizen journalists" of Kashmir. "This is a new trend in Kashmir. There are a lot of young people moving around the city with such mobile phone recordings," says Amjad Mir of Sen TV, a local news and current affairs channel. In the restive Batamaloo area in Srinagar, a 29-year-old man, who owns a small mobile phone shop in the city, says he goes out every other day with his phone in search of "interesting footage". "This is the first time ordinary people like us are coming out with our phones and shooting. This is the only way we can show to the world what is happening here," says the young man, who prefers to be unnamed. 'History in making' During a recent curfew in the valley, he recorded people in his neighbourhood collecting several thousand bottles of drinking water to supply a local hospital which had run out. The Batamaloo man shows me some of his other clips on the phone - crowds gathering for a demonstration, tyres burning on the streets, troops chasing crowds. A friend, he says, has clips of a man shot down by troops on his cheap Chinese mobile phone. His favourite is a nine-minute recording of a protest demonstration that he shot on his favourite Nokia phone from a flyover overlooking the road. "I have never seen so many people in my life as that day. It was a big, peaceful demonstration. And I just kept recording," he says. Chasing events on mobile phones have now become an obsessive hobby with these young men - they charge their phones regularly every night and hit the road next morning looking for some action. A young journalist says the mobile phone chroniclers are usually internet-savvy students, who shoot clips and upload them on the internet. "I want to preserve these memories. They are history in the making," he says. His favourite clip: local boys demolishing an 18-year-old bunker of Indian troops in his neighbourhood during the recent agitation. The Kashmir conflict now seems to have become fully digitalised. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 19:33:09 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:33:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Spanish report links Pakistan to Taliban Message-ID: <6353c690810010703t325fca19m88955bcd63ebf781@mail.gmail.com> *Spanish report links Pakistan to Taliban * http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081001/ap_on_re_as/eu_spain_pakistan_taliban_1 MADRID, Spain - A report marked confidential and bearing the official seal of Spain's Defense Ministry charges that Pakistan's spy service was helping arm Taliban insurgents in 2005 for assassination plots against the Afghan government. The report, which was obtained by Cadena Ser radio and posted on the station's Web site on Wednesday, also says Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence spy agency, or ISI, helped the Taliban procure improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, to use in attacks against vehicles. It alleges that Pakistan may have provided training and intelligence to the Taliban in camps set up on Pakistani soil. "The plan is that the TBs (Taliban) use these RCIEDs (remote control IEDs) to assassinate high-ranking officials," the report warns. The August 2005 document, which is marked "confidential" and topped with the Defense Ministry seal and the title of Spain's military intelligence agency, does not describe the source of the information. Cadena Ser did not say how it obtained the report. The Defense Ministry and the Spanish prime minister's office said it had no comment on the document. Fernando Reinares, a terrorism analyst at the Elcano Royal Institute in Madrid and former chief counterterrorism adviser at Spain's Interior Ministry, said the document appeared to be an internal government report meant for the eyes of high-ranking officials. Spain has about 800 soldiers deployed in northwest Afghanistan. The report also warns that "it appears possible" that advanced training camps exist in Pakistan "where the Taliban receive training, help and intelligence from the ISI and where they are also developing new kinds of IEDs." The report says the Taliban had also been receiving help from al-Qaida. Reinares said the report on the alleged ISI-Taliban link is in keeping with information from other Western spy agencies. "The intelligence services have done nothing more then confirm a reality which has also been reported by other Western agencies," he told The Associated Press. Reinares said Spain has developed a strong military and police intelligence operation in Pakistan, particularly since the terror attacks of March 11, 2004. There have long been suspicions that members of Pakistan's shadowy spy agency have aided the Taliban, a charge that Pakistan has vehemently denied. A senior military official in Pakistan told the AP on Wednesday that the Spanish report had no merit. He asked not to be named because he is not authorized to speak to the media. Pakistani officials did not immediately respond to requests for on-the-record comment on the allegations. The ISI has helped kill or capture several top al-Qaida leaders since 2001, but there are lingering doubts about its loyalty, not least because its agents helped build up the Taliban in the 1990s. U.S. intelligence agencies suspect rogue elements may still be giving Taliban militants sensitive information to aid in their growing insurgency in Afghanistan, even though officially Pakistan is a U.S. ally in fighting terrorism. Some analysts say elements in the spy agency may want to retain the Taliban as potential assets against longtime rival India and believe Pakistan's strategic interests are best served if Afghanistan remains a weak state. India and Afghanistan — and reportedly the U.S. — suspect the ISI of involvement in the July 7 bombing outside India's Embassy in Kabul, which killed more than 60 people. Pakistan denies the allegations. Pakistan's army chief this week named a general considered a hawk in the fight against al-Qaida and the Taliban to head the ISI. The Taliban has regularly used roadside bombs to attack U.S. troops and Afghan security forces since the beginning of the insurgency following the fall off the movement in 2001. The explosives used have become increasingly powerful in the past year. Such IED attacks can now rip through an armored military vehicle and kill all personnel inside. ___ Associated Press Writer Zarar Khan in Islamabad, Pakistan contributed to this report. ======================================================================================================== *ORIGINAL NEWSITEM ON CADENA SER RADIO WEBSITE:* http://www.cadenaser.com/internacional/articulo/espionaje-espanol-acusa-servicios-secretos/csrcsrpor/20081001csrcsrint_7/Tes El espionaje español acusa a los servicios secretos pakistaníes de colaborar con Al-Qaeda y los talibanes El documento confidencial al que ha accedido la CADENA SER y ha publicado, confirma las sospechas de los servicios de inteligencia MARIELA RUBIO / CADENA SER 01-10-2008 Según un *documento confidencial* de la inteligencia militar española fechado en 2005 al que ha tenido acceso *la SER*, los servicios secretos de Pakistán han proporcionando a la insurgencia armamento, información y apoyo técnico para perpetrar sus atentados en Afganistán. En el documento que está elaborado para el Estado Mayor de la Defensa por el Centro de Inteligencia de las Fuerzas Armadas (CIFAS) y está fechado en agosto de 2005. En él se puede leer textualmente lo siguiente: "Los talibanes *con apoyo de Al Qaeda y el ISID* (Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate) pakistaní, han recibido explosivos para ser activados por control remoto (RCIEDS). El Plan es que los Talibanes empleen estos dispositivos para asesinar colocándolos en vehículos (...) aunque no se ha especificado que tipo de objetivo será". El informe (*que se puede ver en el archivo adjunto*) continúa constatando "La existencia de campos de entrenamiento para la fabricación de dispositivos explosivos (IED) más avanzados en Pakistán donde los talibanes han recibido entrenamiento, apoyo e inteligencia de los servicios secretos pakistaníes y donde se están desarrollando nuevos explosivos (IEDS) tales como los magnéticos inspirados en las tácticas desarrolladas en Irak" *Los 'IEDS', claves para la insurgencia en Afganistán* En sus ataques contra convoyes tanto de fuerzas multinacionales como afganas, los talibán y Al-Qaeda utilizan frecuentemente los llamados artefactos explosivos improvisados (Improvised Explosive Devices, IED). El Ejército español en Afganistán ha sufrido varios ataques mortales al paso de sus vehículos y la gran mayoría han sido cometidos precisamente con IED's. Dos soldados españoles en julio de 2006 y febrero de 2007 morían por el estallido de estos artefactos al paso de sus vehículos. Lo mismo ocurrió el 24 de septiembre de 2007 en Farah donde murieron dos militares españoles y su intérprete afgano también por un explosivo de este tipo. Según el informe del CIFAS al que ha tenido acceso *la SER*, la formación técnica que han recibido los talibanes para fabricar estos IED's ha sido suministrada (al menos en 2005) por los servicios secretos pakistaníes. Formación que los talibanes recibieron en *campos de entrenamiento en Pakistán* y en los que el ISID pakistaní suministraba además a los terroristas la información necesaria para sus atentados. *El 'doble juego' de la inteligencia Pakistaní* Este martes el gobierno pakistaní nombraba a un nuevo jefe de la inteligencia; sin embargo, al tiempo negaba que el cambio tuviese nada que ver con las acusaciones de colaboración con los terroristas que vienen recibiendo los agentes pakistaníes por parte de Estados Unidos. Acusaciones, que según el informe al que ha tenido acceso la *Cadena SER*, estarían plenamente justificadas. Estados Unidos, según datos aportados por el congreso americano, ha destinado desde el 11-S (2001) más de 5.000 millones de dólares (unos 3.500 millones de euros) para armar a las tropas de élite pakistaníes en su lucha contra Al Qaeda y los talibanes en las zonas fronterizas con Afganistán. De esta manera y según el informe al que ha tenido acceso la SER (fechado en 2005) Pakistán, gobernada hasta hace poco más de un mes por Pervez Musharraf, habría estado recibiendo dinero de la administración Bush para combatir a los terroristas mientras su servicios secretos *financiaban y entrenaban a los talibanes* en colaboración con Al Qaeda. El control de los servicios secretos será, para muchos expertos, uno de los principales retos del nuevo presidente pakistaní Asif Zardari y es que en los últimos años, los sucesivos gobiernos de Pakistán han tratado con mayor y menor éxito de controlar a unos servicios de espionaje tan "poderosos" que en muchos casos, según fuentes del CIFAS "actúan con una total autonomía e impunidad". El pasado 29 de julio, 'The New York Times' que citaba fuentes gubernamentales, aseguraba que la CIA habría determinado que miembros del ISID ayudaron a planear el *atentado contra la embajada india en Kabul*cometido por Al Qaeda el 7 de julio, en el que murieron 58 personas, entre ellas el agregado indio de Defensa. Pakistán calificó de "especulación" la noticia; el portavoz pakistaní del Ministerio de Exteriores, Mohammed Sadiq aseguró que "Esas noticias no tienen base y son sólo una especulación de prensa con fuentes anónimas. Nadie ha probado nada". La inteligencia militar, crucial en Afganistán Los agentes que el CIFAS (Centro de Inteligencia de las Fuerzas Armadas) mantiene desplegados en la zona están resultando esenciales para la seguridad de los soldados españoles en el país. La anticipación se ha demostrado crucial para evitar acciones violentas de la insurgencia, principalmente en los últimos meses. El contingente Español en Badghis, al oeste de Afganistán, ha soportado *el verano más violento desde que comenzó el despliegue* sin sufrir ni bajas ni heridos; según fuentes militares, esto ha sido posible, en parte, gracias a la ingente cantidad de información recabada por los agentes del CIFAS y plasmada en sus pormenorizados informes. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 20:01:24 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:01:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91Terrorists=92_died_of_gunshot_w?= =?windows-1252?q?ounds?= Message-ID: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com> 'Terrorists' died of gunshot wounds Rhythma Kaul The Hindustan Times New Delhi, September 30, 2008 "Atif Ameen and Mohammad Sajid, the alleged terrorists who were killed in the encounter at Batla House on September 19, died specifically of fire-arm injuries," said one of the forensic experts who did the autopsy at Jai Prakash Narayan Apex Trauma Centre at All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS). "I can say with 100 per cent assurance that both the men weren't engaged in any scuffle before their death. There were no scuffle marks, but only bullet wounds on their bodies," he said. Physiological evidence indicated Atif and Sajid were both in their early 20s, with Sajid being slightly younger. Since there was no age-related query from the police, it has not been revealed in the autopsy report. "Still, we have collected samples, and if the police ask us in future to ascertain their age, we can do it," said the doctor. During the autopsy, bullets were found lodged inside the bodies of both Atif and Sajid. Atif's body had a total of 21 injuries spread across the torso and thighs. Sajid's body had 13 injury marks, with most of the wounds located on his head and chest. One mark was on his right leg, which, the doctors say, could have been made when a bullet grazed past his leg. When asked how many bullets were lodged inside the bodies, the doctor said that it was impossible to come up with a number. "These days, the weapons have become very sophisticated. We get frangible bullets that explode inside the target, with one bullet making multiple wounds. We can tell you how many wounds were made by bullet injuries. How many bullets were fired is for the ballistic experts to correlate and determine," he said. The three-member forensic team worked overtime to submit the report within three days of the bodies being handed over to it on September 22. The autopsy procedure unlike that for Inspector M.C. Sharma, who was also killed in the encounter was not done in-camera. "That's because the police didn't place any such request before us," said the doctor. As for making the report public, the doctor said, "No one can have access to the autopsy report within 90 days, not even the family." Inspector Sharma's autopsy report was completed late on the night of September 26 but has still not been handed over to his family. From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 1 20:03:18 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:03:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGVycm9yaXN0c+KAmSBkaWVkIG9mIGd1bnNo?= =?utf-8?q?ot_wounds?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810010733w624c2812x912aa3685026b4bd@mail.gmail.com> Interesting that this story does not mention that the 'terrorists' were shot in the head. best shivam On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > 'Terrorists' died of gunshot wounds > Rhythma Kaul > > The Hindustan Times > > New Delhi, September 30, 2008 > > "Atif Ameen and Mohammad Sajid, the alleged terrorists who were killed in > the encounter at Batla House on September 19, died specifically of fire-arm > injuries," said one of the forensic experts who did the autopsy at Jai > Prakash Narayan Apex Trauma Centre at All India Institute of Medical > Sciences (AIIMS). > > "I can say with 100 per cent assurance that both the men weren't engaged in > any scuffle before their death. There were no scuffle marks, but only bullet > wounds on their bodies," he said. > > Physiological evidence indicated Atif and Sajid were both in their early > 20s, with Sajid being slightly younger. > > Since there was no age-related query from the police, it has not been > revealed in the autopsy report. "Still, we have collected samples, and if > the police ask us in future to ascertain their age, we can do it," said the > doctor. > > During the autopsy, bullets were found lodged inside the bodies of both Atif > and Sajid. Atif's body had a total of 21 injuries spread across the torso > and thighs. > > Sajid's body had 13 injury marks, with most of the wounds located on his > head and chest. > > One mark was on his right leg, which, the doctors say, could have been made > when a bullet grazed past his leg. > > When asked how many bullets were lodged inside the bodies, the doctor said > that it was impossible to come up with a number. > > "These days, the weapons have become very sophisticated. We get frangible > bullets that explode inside the target, with one bullet making multiple > wounds. We can tell you how many wounds were made by bullet injuries. How > many bullets were fired is for the ballistic experts to correlate and > determine," he said. > > The three-member forensic team worked overtime to submit the report within > three days of the bodies being handed over to it on September 22. > > The autopsy procedure unlike that for Inspector M.C. Sharma, who was also > killed in the encounter was not done in-camera. "That's because the police > didn't place any such request before us," said the doctor. > > As for making the report public, the doctor said, "No one can have access to > the autopsy report within 90 days, not even the family." > > Inspector Sharma's autopsy report was completed late on the night of > September 26 but has still not been handed over to his family. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 20:07:59 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:07:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGVycm9yaXN0c+KAmSBkaWVkIG9mIGd1bnNo?= =?utf-8?q?ot_wounds?= In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810010733w624c2812x912aa3685026b4bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810010733w624c2812x912aa3685026b4bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810010737l235a8bc0l2bc847512a5ff3d0@mail.gmail.com> At times, these days people tend to get a verbal diarrhea of commenting on each post without reading it at length and clarity. Its very common. Kindly read carefully. Hope the story is still interesting. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/1/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Interesting that this story does not mention that the 'terrorists' > were shot in the head. > best > shivam > > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > 'Terrorists' died of gunshot wounds > > Rhythma Kaul > > > > The Hindustan Times > > > > New Delhi, September 30, 2008 > > > > "Atif Ameen and Mohammad Sajid, the alleged terrorists who were killed in > > the encounter at Batla House on September 19, died specifically of > fire-arm > > injuries," said one of the forensic experts who did the autopsy at Jai > > Prakash Narayan Apex Trauma Centre at All India Institute of Medical > > Sciences (AIIMS). > > > > "I can say with 100 per cent assurance that both the men weren't engaged > in > > any scuffle before their death. There were no scuffle marks, but only > bullet > > wounds on their bodies," he said. > > > > Physiological evidence indicated Atif and Sajid were both in their early > > 20s, with Sajid being slightly younger. > > > > Since there was no age-related query from the police, it has not been > > revealed in the autopsy report. "Still, we have collected samples, and if > > the police ask us in future to ascertain their age, we can do it," said > the > > doctor. > > > > During the autopsy, bullets were found lodged inside the bodies of both > Atif > > and Sajid. Atif's body had a total of 21 injuries spread across the torso > > and thighs. > > > > Sajid's body had 13 injury marks, with most of the wounds located on his > > head and chest. > > > > One mark was on his right leg, which, the doctors say, could have been > made > > when a bullet grazed past his leg. > > > > When asked how many bullets were lodged inside the bodies, the doctor > said > > that it was impossible to come up with a number. > > > > "These days, the weapons have become very sophisticated. We get frangible > > bullets that explode inside the target, with one bullet making multiple > > wounds. We can tell you how many wounds were made by bullet injuries. How > > many bullets were fired is for the ballistic experts to correlate and > > determine," he said. > > > > The three-member forensic team worked overtime to submit the report > within > > three days of the bodies being handed over to it on September 22. > > > > The autopsy procedure unlike that for Inspector M.C. Sharma, who was also > > killed in the encounter was not done in-camera. "That's because the > police > > didn't place any such request before us," said the doctor. > > > > As for making the report public, the doctor said, "No one can have access > to > > the autopsy report within 90 days, not even the family." > > > > Inspector Sharma's autopsy report was completed late on the night of > > September 26 but has still not been handed over to his family. > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 1 20:11:11 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:11:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGVycm9yaXN0c+KAmSBkaWVkIG9mIGd1bnNo?= =?utf-8?q?ot_wounds?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690810010737l235a8bc0l2bc847512a5ff3d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810010733w624c2812x912aa3685026b4bd@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810010737l235a8bc0l2bc847512a5ff3d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810010741x7e0b4fc8hbfeceda1fabb7167@mail.gmail.com> Oh sorry! But it does not, then, analyse that if they were shot in the head and chest, it was not an encounter in which the criminal with a gun would be shot in the leg in self-defence. best shivam On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > At times, these days people tend to get a verbal diarrhea of commenting on > each post without reading it at length and clarity. Its very common. > > Kindly read carefully. Hope the story is still interesting. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 10/1/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Interesting that this story does not mention that the 'terrorists' >> were shot in the head. >> best >> shivam >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > 'Terrorists' died of gunshot wounds >> > Rhythma Kaul >> > >> > The Hindustan Times >> > >> > New Delhi, September 30, 2008 >> > >> > "Atif Ameen and Mohammad Sajid, the alleged terrorists who were killed in >> > the encounter at Batla House on September 19, died specifically of >> fire-arm >> > injuries," said one of the forensic experts who did the autopsy at Jai >> > Prakash Narayan Apex Trauma Centre at All India Institute of Medical >> > Sciences (AIIMS). >> > >> > "I can say with 100 per cent assurance that both the men weren't engaged >> in >> > any scuffle before their death. There were no scuffle marks, but only >> bullet >> > wounds on their bodies," he said. >> > >> > Physiological evidence indicated Atif and Sajid were both in their early >> > 20s, with Sajid being slightly younger. >> > >> > Since there was no age-related query from the police, it has not been >> > revealed in the autopsy report. "Still, we have collected samples, and if >> > the police ask us in future to ascertain their age, we can do it," said >> the >> > doctor. >> > >> > During the autopsy, bullets were found lodged inside the bodies of both >> Atif >> > and Sajid. Atif's body had a total of 21 injuries spread across the torso >> > and thighs. >> > >> > Sajid's body had 13 injury marks, with most of the wounds located on his >> > head and chest. >> > >> > One mark was on his right leg, which, the doctors say, could have been >> made >> > when a bullet grazed past his leg. >> > >> > When asked how many bullets were lodged inside the bodies, the doctor >> said >> > that it was impossible to come up with a number. >> > >> > "These days, the weapons have become very sophisticated. We get frangible >> > bullets that explode inside the target, with one bullet making multiple >> > wounds. We can tell you how many wounds were made by bullet injuries. How >> > many bullets were fired is for the ballistic experts to correlate and >> > determine," he said. >> > >> > The three-member forensic team worked overtime to submit the report >> within >> > three days of the bodies being handed over to it on September 22. >> > >> > The autopsy procedure unlike that for Inspector M.C. Sharma, who was also >> > killed in the encounter was not done in-camera. "That's because the >> police >> > didn't place any such request before us," said the doctor. >> > >> > As for making the report public, the doctor said, "No one can have access >> to >> > the autopsy report within 90 days, not even the family." >> > >> > Inspector Sharma's autopsy report was completed late on the night of >> > September 26 but has still not been handed over to his family. >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From bawazainab79 at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 20:56:27 2008 From: bawazainab79 at gmail.com (Zainab Bawa) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:56:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Job openings at www.EmpoweringIndia.org Message-ID: FYI www.EmpoweringIndia.org is an Internet based platform that allows citizens and civil society groups to access data about candidates contesting for state assembly and parliamentary elections. The primary objective of creating this portal is to disseminate information about political parties and elected representatives to individuals and groups. It is hoped that access to this information will help individuals and groups in making choices about who to cast their vote for during the elections. www.EmpoweringIndia.org is looking to hire a data analyst and a communications and network coordinator. The descriptions of the jobs are available at http://www.indefenceofliberty.org/content.aspx?t=2&m=11 Persons interested can write in with their CVs to libertyinstitute at gmail.com -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://wbfs.wordpress.com From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 21:50:45 2008 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:20:45 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Rang Lai Mro in Heart Attack Risk Message-ID: Amnesty has issued a "heart attack risk" alert for indigenous community leader Rang Lai Mro, in detention since the arrival of the Caretaker Government in 2007. Read more about the ongoing crisis in Chittagong Hill Tracts since 2007: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/category/cht/ Please take immediate action, forward this widely. AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/01/rang-lai-mro/ AI Index: ASA 13/003/2008/26 September 2008/UA 276/08 BANGLADESH: Medical concern/Torture/Legal concern Rang Lai Mro (m), indigenous community leader Indigenous community leader Rang Lai Mro, who is serving a jail sentence imposed after an unfair trial, is being refused medical treatment for a serious heart condition. He is the head of a community of indigenous Mro people in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (CHT), in the south-east of the country, and is held in Chittagong District Jail. He is at risk of having a heart attack any time. He was arrested in February 2007, charged with possessing a pistol without a license. Four months later he was sentenced to 17 years' imprisonment for the offence, though his lawyers had produced evidence in court that his pistol was licensed. His lawyers have since claimed that they were not allowed to produce any witnesses at the trial. He is believed to have been targeted because, as the head of a local NGO, Mrochet, working to improve the facilities available to the Mro people in the region, he had protested to the army about the security forces' December 2006 efforts to evict hundreds of Mro families to make way for an army training centre in a remote part of the Bandarban Hill District. According to his lawyer, he had been preparing a petition for the authorities about the situation of Mro people in the area, and the army's action in driving them out of their homes. After his arrest he was severely beaten by army officers in custody at the local army headquarters, Bandarban Cantonment. This torture has never been investigated. He had to be treated in Bandarban General Hospital, where doctors found he had suffered a heart attack. He was sent back to jail without appropriate medical treatment. In October 2007 his health further deteriorated , and he had to be treated in hospital, where doctors said he needed treatment in a hospital with better equipment, but he was once more sent back to jail, without any improvement in his health.. He still has not received appropriate medical treatment for his heart condition and other medical complications, and his health continues to deterioratee. The government has transferred over a dozen prisoners needing specialist attention to well-equipped hospitals so far this year, but Rang Lai Mro has not been one of them. Some of these prisoners have even been allowed to go abroad for treatment. BACKGROUND INFORMATION The present government is a caretaker administration in Bangladesh backed by the army. Army personnel have been involved in arbitrary arrests, torture and deaths in custody, but enjoy a climate of impunity. The CHT borders Myanmar and India, and is home to 13 indigenous tribes, including the Mro. The government has been attempting to settle non-tribal Bengalis in the region since the early 1970s, which led to armed resistance in the mid-1970s. A peace accord signed in 1997 ended the armed conflict, but the CHT has remained heavily militarized. RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send appeals to arrive as quickly as possible, in English, Bangla or your own language: - expressing concern that imprisoned Indigenous community leader Rang Lai Mro has a serious heart condition which requires immediate and sustained medical management, and that the authorities have failed to provide him with this treatment; - urging the authorities to allow Rang Lai Mro to receive appropriate medical attention in a hospital equipped to provide specialist treatment for his heart condition; - expressing concern that he has been tortured, and is at risk of further torture; - urging the authorities to order investigation by an independent, impartial and competent body to on the torture of Rang Lai Mro and the authorities' negligence of his deteriorating health, and bring those responsible to justice. APPEALS TO (Time difference = GMT + 6 hrs / BST + 5 hrs): Prime minister (equivalent) Dr Fakhruddin Ahmed Chief Adviser Office of the Chief Adviser, Bangladesh Fax: 00880 2 8113243 Email: info at pmo.gov.bd [Salutation: Dear Chief Adviser] Special Assistant to the Chief Adviser on Chittagong Hill Tracts affairs Raja Debashish Roy Building No. 4, 6th Floor Bangladesh Secretariat Dhaka 1000, Bangladesh Email: devasish59 at yahoo.com [Salutation: Dear Mr Roy] Adviser to the Chief Adviser Dr ASM Matiur Rahman Ministry of Health & Family Welfare Bangladesh Secretariat Building No. 2, 3rd floor Dhaka 1000, Bangladesh Fax: 00880 2 7169077 00880 2 9571301 E-mail: minister at bd.com [Salutation: Dear Dr Rahman] PLEASE SEND COPIES OF YOUR APPEALS TO: His Excellency Mr. Sabihuddin Ahmed, High Commission for the People's Republic of Bangladesh, 28 Queen's Gate, London SW7 5JA. Fax: 020 7225 2130 Email: bdesh.lon at dial.pipex.com Website: www.bangladeshhighcommission.org.uk AND, IF POSSIBLE, TO THE FOLLOWING: Bangladesh Medical Association Dr M. A. Hadi, President BMA Bhaban 5/2 Topkhana Road Dhaka 1000, Bangladesh Fax: 00880 2 9566060 00880 2 9562527 E-mail: bma at aitlbd.net PLEASE SEND APPEALS IMMEDIATELY From aarti.mundkur at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 22:21:40 2008 From: aarti.mundkur at gmail.com (Aarti Mundkur) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:21:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Day 7 proceedings- Naz v UOI- 377 case Message-ID: <48E3AA9C.8050907@gmail.com> Day seven of Naz hearings (1.10.08) The ASG continued his arguments on behalf of the Union of India by citing Maneka Gandhi's case for the proposition that the only requirement for a law to be valid under Art 21 is that the procedure prescribed by the law must be just, fair and reasonable. He argued that the Court cannot go into the substantive content of the law, but can only test the procedure prescribed under Sec 377. J. Shah noted that the key point of Maneka Gandhi was the relationship between Art 14, 19 and 21 and the fact that a law tested under Art 21 must also fulfil the requirements of reasonableness under Art 14 as well as Art 19. Further the test under Maneka Gandhi according to J. Shah was that both the substantive content of the law as well as its procedure could be examined. J. Shah asked the ASG to read Francis Coralie Mullen's case where it was clearly laid down that the law restricting the right of detenus to have interviews with lawyers , could be tested on not just it is procedure but its substantive content as well. J. Muralidhar made the point that the test under Art 21 had evolved since Kharak Singh , and in Francis Coralie Mullen it was clear that the law restricting the right of prisoners to have interviews with their lawyers in its substantive content violated Art 21. The ASG finally conceded the point that the Court under Art 21 had the power to test the validity of the substantive content of the law as well. When questioned about the contention that Sec 377 violated the right to live with dignity, the ASG maintained that he conceded that everyone had the right to live with dignity, only 'dignity does not mean that you permit all this '… The ASG then read from the petition to make the point that Naz foundation concedes that MSM and gay men are susceptible to homosexuality. J. Shah said that there was no question of concession as the point was not in dispute as all. The ASG then went on to read from the written submissions of the petitioner to make the following counter assertions That the petitioner uses the term sexual minorities and that there is no such thing as sexual minorities in the Constitution. J. Shah noted that the petitioners were not praying for inclusion as minority in a Constitutional sense but using the term to indicate a small number of people. J. Shah asked the ASG to respond to the contention that the word sex included sexual orientation. The ASG responded by saying that the term 'sexual orientation is taken from South African law. The South African Constitution guarantees sexual orientation. If one is used to that kind of sex, that will be preserved if a man is indulging in that kind of activity.. no such thing in India.' J. Shah made the point that the word sex included sexual orientation came from the Toonen decision and was it the contention of the ASG that international law treaties which India has ratified could not be used to interpret Constitutional guarantees? The ASG then went on to say that he was not contending that there was no right to privacy, but was rather making the point on what was the nature of that right. 'You do in private what your mind says you do, eat sleep, lie naked in your house One cannot compare our society to America, Britain because our mindset is different.' J. Muralidhar asked the ASG what was his response to three issues raised , health, privacy and dignity ? On privacy the ASG noted that he had read the same judgements as the petitioners, Kharak Singh,. Govind and Rajgopal. He did not agree with the foreign decisions referred to by the petitioner on privacy. J. Shah pointed out the Griswold, Roe and others were not anti sodomy law decisions but rather decisions on the scope of the right to privacy and were all referred to by the Supreme Court in Govind and subsequent decisions. The ASG noted that nobody interferes with private affairs in anybody's house. One can do anything one wants in the privacy of ones home. J. Muralidhar then made the point that in that case the ASG had to show compelling state interest in prosecuting consensual sexual activity in private. The ASG noted that the law was there since 1860 and it was up to parliament to change the law. Law visualizes all sections of society not just a small section of society. Law should cater to the needs of entire society. The will of the parliament is clear, debates can go on in society. Though other provisions of IPC and CrP.C have been amended , this section has not been changed. It cannot be said that the right to privacy will extend to such an extent and such absurd levels. He said that law cannot be made invalid because of hardship to a section of society. One can however remedy the hardship. The Wolfenden Committee was applicable in a different context and we need not look at that. With reference to Toonen's case, the standards of thought, morality in those countries are different , theirs is a permissive society and our society has not adopted those standards. There is no such thing as consent in Sec 377, the concept of Sec 377 is a kind of a force, which is not natural, consent has no meaning in this context. Sec 377 according to the ASG deals with a kind of situation where so called intercourse is against the order of nature, harm or no harm. It is necessary to protect the human race itself. We need Sec 377 because man to man sex is against the order of nature. Scientifically everything God has made , eat from the mouth, etc is disturbed if this is allowed. 'Does the right to dignity imply this kind of right? Question according to the ASG was not against dignity to punish what was against the order of nature. There is however no controversy about dignity. 'Who is saying that they should be unfairly treated? Nobody is saying that. They should be treated fairly. The point is made that they are marginalized , ignored, who is doing that? They are entitled to treatment. Nobody is saying treat like a second class citizen, if a man is suffering from something, he needs treatment.' The ASG noted that the Government of India was committed to addressing the needs of those at great risk. They say that Sec 377 prevents the collection of data. However we need to educate people, this not good for you and for the other person. J. Shah made the point that if we educate people that going to prostitutes is wrong whether then people will stop going to prostitutes ? Obviously the NACO affidavit was on the point that education by itself was not enough. The ASG said , 'In our culture and tradition men have sex only with their women' The ASG went on to say, It is wrong to say that access to health care is impeded as if a man goes to a doctor and asks for treatment he will be provided. Where is the fear ? It is incorrect to say that the statute is arbitrary because one cant get treatment. J. Shah said that on the ground , if a person had a sexually transmitted disease and was a MSM, he would be fearful of going to the doctor knowing that the sexual act he had done was punishable even up to life. He knows that the behaviour is criminalized and knows that he is liable to punishment. It remains a stigma as he cannot tell the doctor that what he indulged in was an offence. Can you brush aside NACO's affidavit by saying that person is feeling shy about going to the doctor ? J. Shah went on to note that MSM are subject to various indignities which might hinder actual treatment. The only question the ASG had to answer is if there was no prosecution for sex in private (hardly any) why then should the provision remain? What is the compelling public interest served by a law that is rarely used? In the affidavit read out by Mr. Divan, there is a situation which all of us know of -making fun, ridiculing, heaping indignities only because of the nature of sex. When you are not serious about prosecution, why should this provision remain on the statute book ? J. Muralidhar asked the ASG to think about this point, 'that if the Union of India viewed this as being against the order of nature how would it impact on the notion of an inclusive society? We have an obligation to educate our people on how to exist with people who are not like you? You need to ask the question on how to help communities to coexist . What impact will this have on the argument of compelling state interest. ? J. Shah went on to note, that the stand of the government in most of the cases where the law was challenged , Dudgeon, Modinos, Hong Kong, South Africa it was conceded by the Government that the law was rarely used. It was only used for harassment. If the Government was not serious about enforcement, why should it be there ? J. Shah then summarized the arguments of the ASG as 1) The removal of the law would lead to the spread of HIV/AIDS. However there was no study submitted by the ASG on this point 2) It would lead to a loss of morality as our culture is different. There is however different thinking within the Government on this very important issue. In effect your stand would tell an entire section of the population that they are law breakers and send a message to society. In the Modinos case for example it was held that even in an orthodox Christian country like Cyprus , the majority view and public morals alone were insufficient for continued criminalization. J. Muralidhar then made the point that a public interest litigation was not be viewed as an adversarial litigation, it is not dispute resolution but problem solving. Certain elements of the case before us should be viewed in a constructive manner. J. Shah then went on to say that since Mr Grover was present it would be right to mention the case in the Bombay High Court which related to the termination of employment of a person who was HIV positive and how in that case all parties agreed to cooperate to find a solution and did not see it as a adversarial litigation. J. Shah then referred to the NACO affidavit and said that there were real difficulties faced by an organ of government. J. Muralidhar then made the point that the Government itself was not able to intervene but rather depended upon NGOs' for HIV interventions. J. Shah also noted that the State of TN notification on aravanis was telling in terms of thinking which recognized their rights. The Court rose and the next date of hearing was fixed for post the vacation on Oct 15. J. Shah asked the ASG how much more time he needed and then fixed a half day session on Oct 15 a full day on Oct 16 (afternoon was fixed for intervenors ) and Oct 17 half day. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 23:30:08 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 23:30:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGVycm9yaXN0c+KAmSBkaWVkIG9mIGd1bnNo?= =?utf-8?q?ot_wounds?= In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810010741x7e0b4fc8hbfeceda1fabb7167@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810010733w624c2812x912aa3685026b4bd@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810010737l235a8bc0l2bc847512a5ff3d0@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810010741x7e0b4fc8hbfeceda1fabb7167@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810011100r5c03d44fnae687d09b41cbfd0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shivam Vij Ji, Eid Mubarak Since you seem to be interested in 'terrorism' and 'encounters', i would you to understand that even in self defense where the opponent is firing, the shootings are not aimed at legs. I have seen many shootings and many encounters . However if you have been told a different story by your employers or terrorist friends like Yasin Malik, please do correct yourself. When someone aims a gun at you , you fire anywhere in self defense. And thats a human psychology. Regards Pawan Durani On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Oh sorry! But it does not, then, analyse that if they were shot in the > head and chest, it was not an encounter in which the criminal with a > gun would be shot in the leg in self-defence. > best > shivam > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > At times, these days people tend to get a verbal diarrhea of commenting > on > > each post without reading it at length and clarity. Its very common. > > > > Kindly read carefully. Hope the story is still interesting. > > > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > On 10/1/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> Interesting that this story does not mention that the 'terrorists' > >> were shot in the head. > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > 'Terrorists' died of gunshot wounds > >> > Rhythma Kaul > >> > > >> > The Hindustan Times > >> > > >> > New Delhi, September 30, 2008 > >> > > >> > "Atif Ameen and Mohammad Sajid, the alleged terrorists who were killed > in > >> > the encounter at Batla House on September 19, died specifically of > >> fire-arm > >> > injuries," said one of the forensic experts who did the autopsy at Jai > >> > Prakash Narayan Apex Trauma Centre at All India Institute of Medical > >> > Sciences (AIIMS). > >> > > >> > "I can say with 100 per cent assurance that both the men weren't > engaged > >> in > >> > any scuffle before their death. There were no scuffle marks, but only > >> bullet > >> > wounds on their bodies," he said. > >> > > >> > Physiological evidence indicated Atif and Sajid were both in their > early > >> > 20s, with Sajid being slightly younger. > >> > > >> > Since there was no age-related query from the police, it has not been > >> > revealed in the autopsy report. "Still, we have collected samples, and > if > >> > the police ask us in future to ascertain their age, we can do it," > said > >> the > >> > doctor. > >> > > >> > During the autopsy, bullets were found lodged inside the bodies of > both > >> Atif > >> > and Sajid. Atif's body had a total of 21 injuries spread across the > torso > >> > and thighs. > >> > > >> > Sajid's body had 13 injury marks, with most of the wounds located on > his > >> > head and chest. > >> > > >> > One mark was on his right leg, which, the doctors say, could have been > >> made > >> > when a bullet grazed past his leg. > >> > > >> > When asked how many bullets were lodged inside the bodies, the doctor > >> said > >> > that it was impossible to come up with a number. > >> > > >> > "These days, the weapons have become very sophisticated. We get > frangible > >> > bullets that explode inside the target, with one bullet making > multiple > >> > wounds. We can tell you how many wounds were made by bullet injuries. > How > >> > many bullets were fired is for the ballistic experts to correlate and > >> > determine," he said. > >> > > >> > The three-member forensic team worked overtime to submit the report > >> within > >> > three days of the bodies being handed over to it on September 22. > >> > > >> > The autopsy procedure unlike that for Inspector M.C. Sharma, who was > also > >> > killed in the encounter was not done in-camera. "That's because the > >> police > >> > didn't place any such request before us," said the doctor. > >> > > >> > As for making the report public, the doctor said, "No one can have > access > >> to > >> > the autopsy report within 90 days, not even the family." > >> > > >> > Inspector Sharma's autopsy report was completed late on the night of > >> > September 26 but has still not been handed over to his family. > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 23:43:47 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 23:43:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] China's Muslims say Ramadan a time of repression Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810011113w688069f0n928c6f85389b3c9d@mail.gmail.com> http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h6i0HWPXxzKikXlvFjRTEZwV_RCgD93FOFUO1 KUQA, China (AP) — All that was left on the chin of the Muslim man praying at the huge brownstone mosque was a small patch of stubble. He said officials had forced young men in China's far western Xinjiang region to cut off their beards at the start of the holy month of Ramadan. "If I didn't shave, they would do this to me," said the man, who put his wrists together as if handcuffed, his eyes bulging with anger. "If I say more, I could be arrested." He gave only part of his name, Arem, and stomped away. For Muslims, Ramadan is a time of fasting and prayer. But for China's Muslim ethnic Uighurs, the holy month is also full of fear and seething resentment about increasingly tight restrictions on how they practice their moderate form of Islam, influenced by the Sunni and Sufi sects. Managing the restive Turkic people is developing into one of China's biggest challenges. Like the Tibetans, the Uighurs have been unwilling to buy into the government's plan: greater economic prosperity instead of greater religious freedom or autonomy. This year has been especially jittery in Xinjiang, a sprawling territory three times the size of France that is home to 9 million Uighurs (pronounced WEE-GURS). Despite ramped-up security in the region before the Beijing Olympics, a string of bombings and deadly attacks — the worst wave of violence in a decade — deeply embarrassed China under the global spotlight. China blamed terrorists, but has yet to release evidence that links terror groups to attacks that killed 33 people in Kuqa and Kashgar in western Xinjiang. With the Olympics over and the world's focus elsewhere, it seems to be payback time for Xinjiang. Overseas Uighur rights groups have accused the government of mass arrests, which police deny. Uighurs interviewed by The Associated Press in Kuqa and Kashgar complained of sweeping detentions but would not say more. In Kuqa, security officials followed an AP journalist for most of his visit. The most obvious signs of tension are the tight restrictions on Ramadan, which ends this week. Several local governments have posted lists of warnings on their Web sites, including a detailed one by the township of Yingmaili in Xayar county, near Kuqa. Government employees, teachers and students can't fast during Ramadan. Mosques can't host out-of-town visitors or play video and sound recordings. Proselytizing in public is prohibited. Surveillance of mosques must be increased. Restaurants must stay open during the daylight fasting period. "All effective means must be used to make sure that men shave their beards and that women remove veils that cover their faces," adds the notice. A slogan painted on a wall in the area warns Muslims it is illegal to make the annual pilgrimage to Mecca except with a government-sanctioned tour group. Such restrictions have long been on the books but were selectively enforced, said Dru Gladney, an expert on Uighurs at the Pacific Basin Institute at Pomona College in California. "The government has really been enforcing these restrictions in Xinjiang more than in the past," Gladney said. "In other Muslim areas in China, you certainly don't see these similar kinds of restrictions." In many ways, Xinjiang is China's Siberia. This harsh land of snowcapped mountains and scorching deserts is broken up by oil fields and oasis cities surrounded by lush fields of cotton, melons and grapes. The territory has been China's nuclear test ground and home to an extensive "laogai," a gulag-like prison system. Xinjiang also shares borders with Russia, Pakistan, Afghanistan and other Central Asian nations — a volatile neighborhood that makes Beijing nervous. In a recent 14-page speech, regional Communist Party leader Nuer Baikeli accused "hostile Western forces" of trying to foment Uighur discontent, politicize religion and split Xinjiang from the motherland. He also warned that crazed Islamic extremists in neighboring countries were training Uighurs to carry out terrorist attacks in China. Military and security forces frequently restrict access to Xinjiang. An AP journalist was stopped at a police checkpoint and detained for a half hour until county officials arrived. When shown Yingmaili's Ramadan restrictions, Ablmit Ahmet, a senior official responsible for religious issues, quietly scanned the document for a minute. A junior official said, "Things really aren't this restrictive. Some local governments are just being a bit overzealous," and Ahmet nodded his head and handed back the list to the reporter. Ahmet referred the issue to a Muslim cleric, or imam. With officials at his side, Amudula Rehemutula stood amid a patchwork of ornate rugs in the high-ceilinged Ake Mosque, the county's biggest. The young imam said he agreed with the government that children should not be allowed to worship in the mosque until they are 18 — old enough to decide whether they believe in religion. He added that teachers and students should not fast during Ramadan because they need to be energetic in the classroom. "I am extremely pleased with the religious policy of the (Communist) Party and the government," Rehemutula said in a monotone voice and unfocused gaze, before ending the five-minute meeting to go to pray. During the brief interview, he glanced at his wristwatch several times. Imams must study at state-sanctioned schools and answer to government officials, who have sacked those deemed unreliable or too outspoken. "The imams get paid by the government and they help inform on us. We don't trust them," said Mamat, a recent college graduate looking for work in the ancient Silk Road city of Kashgar in western Xinjiang. Like others quoted in this story, Mamat asked that his full name not be printed for fear of being detained for speaking to a journalist. Fear pervades Xinjiang. Two Uighur college students on a sidewalk in Kashgar worried their images were captured by surveillance cameras. A taxi driver in Kuqa was concerned that a black car behind him was recording his conversations with eavesdropping equipment. Even some foreign scholars worried China might blacklist them if they made remarks deemed too critical of the government. Mutual contempt is common between Uighurs and the Han Chinese majority. "This is a beautiful ancient Silk Road city surrounded by mountains and deserts," said Li, a Han Chinese taxi driver. "The only problem is that there are too many Uighurs." The driver claimed Uighurs are uneducated and rude. Many Uighurs, in turn, are ignorant of Han Chinese holidays and speak only their language instead of Mandarin, China's official language. One Uighur businessman named Mattursun praying at a mosque in Yarkent said he despised the Han Chinese. "They no longer really believe in Marxism or communism," the man said. "All they believe in is money. Money is their god." The government insists most Uighurs are happy because, like the rest of the country, Xinjiang is becoming more prosperous. In recent years, highways, airports and rail lines, schools, hospitals and even mosques have been built. The government has high hopes for deposits of oil, natural gas and minerals. Slogans on billboards and walls across Xinjiang tell people that social harmony and unity equal prosperity. But many Uighurs aren't biting. They think the region is being colonized by Han Chinese, who have flooded into the territory in recent years. "Sure, they're building roads and bridges. But that's just so that more Han Chinese will move to Xinjiang and take the place away from us," said Haji, a 34-year-old Uighur businessman in Kashgar. Haji has a college degree and a successful enterprise that benefits from improved infrastructure and security, but he is fed up with the government's religious policy. In school he was allowed to observe Ramadan, but now his children cannot. Haji said he doubted China would ever give Xinjiang independence, but hoped Beijing would eventually heed the words of the late leader Mao Zedong. "Mao said that if there is more pressure, there are more problems," Haji said. "I believe someday the government will realize this and relax." From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 00:05:34 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 14:35:34 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGVycm9yaXN0c+KAmSBkaWVkIG9mIGd1bnNo?= =?utf-8?q?ot_wounds?= References: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com><9c06aab30810010733w624c2812x912aa3685026b4bd@mail.gmail.com><6353c690810010737l235a8bc0l2bc847512a5ff3d0@mail.gmail.com><9c06aab30810010741x7e0b4fc8hbfeceda1fabb7167@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810011100r5c03d44fnae687d09b41cbfd0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6D2656A4AC2A43FFA49730C130368869@shabori> Please keep such mails which are of the personal nature away from the list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawan Durani" To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list]‘Terrorists’ died of gunshot wounds > Dear Shivam Vij Ji, > Eid Mubarak > > Since you seem to be interested in 'terrorism' and 'encounters', i would > you > to understand that even in self defense where the opponent is firing, the > shootings are not aimed at legs. > > I have seen many shootings and many encounters . However if you have been > told a different story by your employers or terrorist friends like Yasin > Malik, please do correct yourself. > > When someone aims a gun at you , you fire anywhere in self defense. And > thats a human psychology. > > Regards > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > >> Oh sorry! But it does not, then, analyse that if they were shot in the >> head and chest, it was not an encounter in which the criminal with a >> gun would be shot in the leg in self-defence. >> best >> shivam >> >> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > At times, these days people tend to get a verbal diarrhea of commenting >> on >> > each post without reading it at length and clarity. Its very common. >> > >> > Kindly read carefully. Hope the story is still interesting. >> > >> > Love >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > >> > >> > On 10/1/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> Interesting that this story does not mention that the 'terrorists' >> >> were shot in the head. >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > 'Terrorists' died of gunshot wounds >> >> > Rhythma Kaul >> >> > >> >> > The Hindustan Times >> >> > >> >> > New Delhi, September 30, 2008 >> >> > >> >> > "Atif Ameen and Mohammad Sajid, the alleged terrorists who were >> >> > killed >> in >> >> > the encounter at Batla House on September 19, died specifically of >> >> fire-arm >> >> > injuries," said one of the forensic experts who did the autopsy at >> >> > Jai >> >> > Prakash Narayan Apex Trauma Centre at All India Institute of Medical >> >> > Sciences (AIIMS). >> >> > >> >> > "I can say with 100 per cent assurance that both the men weren't >> engaged >> >> in >> >> > any scuffle before their death. There were no scuffle marks, but >> >> > only >> >> bullet >> >> > wounds on their bodies," he said. >> >> > >> >> > Physiological evidence indicated Atif and Sajid were both in their >> early >> >> > 20s, with Sajid being slightly younger. >> >> > >> >> > Since there was no age-related query from the police, it has not >> >> > been >> >> > revealed in the autopsy report. "Still, we have collected samples, >> >> > and >> if >> >> > the police ask us in future to ascertain their age, we can do it," >> said >> >> the >> >> > doctor. >> >> > >> >> > During the autopsy, bullets were found lodged inside the bodies of >> both >> >> Atif >> >> > and Sajid. Atif's body had a total of 21 injuries spread across the >> torso >> >> > and thighs. >> >> > >> >> > Sajid's body had 13 injury marks, with most of the wounds located on >> his >> >> > head and chest. >> >> > >> >> > One mark was on his right leg, which, the doctors say, could have >> >> > been >> >> made >> >> > when a bullet grazed past his leg. >> >> > >> >> > When asked how many bullets were lodged inside the bodies, the >> >> > doctor >> >> said >> >> > that it was impossible to come up with a number. >> >> > >> >> > "These days, the weapons have become very sophisticated. We get >> frangible >> >> > bullets that explode inside the target, with one bullet making >> multiple >> >> > wounds. We can tell you how many wounds were made by bullet >> >> > injuries. >> How >> >> > many bullets were fired is for the ballistic experts to correlate >> >> > and >> >> > determine," he said. >> >> > >> >> > The three-member forensic team worked overtime to submit the report >> >> within >> >> > three days of the bodies being handed over to it on September 22. >> >> > >> >> > The autopsy procedure unlike that for Inspector M.C. Sharma, who was >> also >> >> > killed in the encounter was not done in-camera. "That's because the >> >> police >> >> > didn't place any such request before us," said the doctor. >> >> > >> >> > As for making the report public, the doctor said, "No one can have >> access >> >> to >> >> > the autopsy report within 90 days, not even the family." >> >> > >> >> > Inspector Sharma's autopsy report was completed late on the night of >> >> > September 26 but has still not been handed over to his family. >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 00:13:29 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 00:13:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bali's smiling assassins Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810011143v374426aeu2dd013a624345038@mail.gmail.com> http://www.theage.com.au/national/balis-smiling-assassins-hold-court-20081001-4s19.html ACTING more like pop stars than prisoners, the three Bali bombers held court in the centre of Nusakambangan Island's prison yesterday in what should be their last public appearance before facing firing squads. Smiling and defiant, Amrozi, Mukhlas and Imam Samudra refused to discuss their feelings about execution. But they vowed that more bombings were already planned to avenge their deaths and "friends" would kill the prison guards and police responsible. And they steadfastly shunned any remorse for the 2002 Bali bombings that left 202 dead, 88 of them Australians. The three, who are to be executed by the end of the year - possibly within days - were the centre of attention for media, prison wardens and prisoners during celebrations marking the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. After talking freely to journalists, they raised their fists and led inmates in chants of "Allahu akbar" (God is great). During a mass prayer in the prison quadrangle, they smiled and joked, with Amrozi wrapping an affectionate arm around a warden. Amrozi said he had no regrets about killing 88 Australians. "Why regret? They were targets." Samudra said he felt no sympathy for the victims. "All of the Westerners are infidels," he said. "I never say sorry to non-Muslims, I never say sorry to Australians." Samudra said more bombings were planned to follow the executions. "Our side is ready." Mukhlas, Amrozi's brother and overall commander of the attacks as operational head of the Jemaah Islamiah network in Java, said he had no last wishes. When a guard tried to usher him back to his cell, Mukhlas shoved him aside proclaiming: "I am sure the people who execute us will be executed by Allah. It is a big crime to execute people like us, holy warriors. Everyone who is involved will be cursed. Everybody, the President, the ministers, prison wardens, even the guy who opens the cell must be killed." Despite saying they wished to die as martyrs, the trio have used legal manoeuvres to avoid execution. Their final Constitutional Court challenge to Indonesia's death penalty - claiming firing squads are inhumane - is continuing, but the court has no legal power to prevent the executions. Meanwhile, local families of victims of the second Bali bombing, which killed 20 people, including four Australians, placed wreaths at Australia's consulate in Denpasar to commemorate the third anniversary. Though nine terrorists involved in the first and second bombings were recommended for remissions to celebrate the end of Ramadan, their sentence cuts were not announced along with others yesterday. From ml49 at duke.edu Thu Oct 2 02:03:37 2008 From: ml49 at duke.edu (Madhumita Lahiri) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:33:37 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] financial writing and political writing In-Reply-To: <976EA174-927F-4716-BABD-17B543F2334A@sarai.net> References: <976EA174-927F-4716-BABD-17B543F2334A@sarai.net> Message-ID: <001501c92404$fc1e40c0$f45ac240$@edu> Hi Naeem, Isaac, Prakash, Jeebesh, and others (Mr. Moore? Are you on this listserv?) Sorry for not replying to your messages earlier, got busy with work. I'm going to try to do this briefly and in one post. RE: Isaac, government and economics -- yes; and have you seen the advisors they pick out?? I could be convinced on your optimism.... more generally, though, I feel uncertain about allowing the world economy to be dramatically shaped by U.S. electoral choices (which, of course, it currently is). I don't believe that Wall Street can regulate itself, but I also am not sure that the U.S. government and its administrators, per se, are worthy of my trust. And all the markets are linked, so the stakeholders go far, far beyond the U.S., muddling the normative who-chooses question. RE: Michael Moore: I haven't been following him, but when I read those emails from him I seriously wonder if one could enjoy or even finish reading them if one did not already dislike Republicans and admire Democrats. Try this exercise with the email Prakash sent out to the listserv. So, I really am not sure if his implied reader is middle.... though yep, he sure is a populist. RE: left writing more generally -- I feel that it is socially irresponsible to play wild and loose in writing about the financial situation; for instance, I find the blog post below not "very well written" but obfuscatory and conflationary. (All who would like to call me hopelessly bourgeois are now invited to do so). I understand that a certain variant of leftism believes in conflating the descriptive with the normative, and denying that always ideological distinction between them--but I'm not sure why, per se, the inflammatory rhetoric of a certain left-ish segment is productive. Some kinds of analyses can stymie engagement, no? To the extent that the current disaster relates, in part, to folks not being able to look out for their own financial interests, or to understand the economy on a macro scale, I feel that left (and perhaps right) politics should commit as much to explication as exhortation. I'm not sure that inflammatory and/or populist rhetoric is useful, given this context of confusion, ignorance, and misinformation. Oh, and re: Jeebesh's email on "Is My Money Safe?": Yes, the government is always "the insurer of last resort." That's been the case ever since fiat money; if you don't "believe in the state" (Jeebesh's term) you cannot use currency. Time to barter, y'all.... Ok, thanks for reading, Madhumita -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Jeebesh Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:20 AM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: [Reader-list] Will Wall Street's Meltdown Turn America Into a Police State? Dear All, appended below is a very well written blog post on the present financial turbulence. warmly jeebesh quotes from the blog: "Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show" recently juxtaposed Bush's address on the financial cataclysm with his pre-invasion speech in 2003 and found -- surprise! -- they were exactly the same." Will Wall Street's Meltdown Turn America Into a Police State? By Scott Thill, AlterNet. Posted September 30, 2008. "Raw capitalism is dead." -- Henry Paulson, U.S. Treasury secretary "Can't we just all go out and say things are OK?" -- President Bush, to congressional leaders during bailout negotiations I'm not much of an Army Times reader, but after reading that a brigade was shipping from Iraq in October to serve as "an on-call federal response force for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks" in the homeland right before the election, my antennae perked up. Same as they did when I read that an electoral college doomsday scenario exists in which Dick Cheney casts the deciding vote that gives McCain-Palin the White House. That is, if Cheney and Bush don't take it for themselves. That may sound like fantasy, but don't kill the messenger. They are all strands of the Gordian knot the Bush administration has tied around the neck of the American people for the last two presidential terms, best represented today by the failed bailout of banks, brokers and other complicit parties that have since jacked the American people out of trillions. And while the Army Times revelation or election doomsday may turn out to be paranoia rather than prescience, the evidence just isn't there. Like I said: antennae. They've come in handy as bullshit detectors since Bush stole the election from a flat-footed Al Gore and set about engineering the greatest transfer of public wealth into private hands in American history. If you factor in Monday's failed takeover, as well as the $5 trillion the American people now owe thanks to the "bailout" of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, not to mention the continuing hyper-expensive occupation of Iraq and so on, our citizenry is now so far in the hole that it's pointless griping about numbers. If you want one, use the figure put forth by Dennis Kucinich: half a quadrillion dollars. We have evolved past the point of economic or geopolitical reality and entered a phase of pure concept. And all vectors of that phase point toward the conclusion that the proverbial shit has totally hit the fan -- head on, and all over again. Meet the New Rome, Same as the Old Rome "Franklin Roosevelt had to save capitalism from itself," Los Angeles Times business editor Tom Petruno told me as Washington Mutual and Wachovia became the latest banking dominoes to fall. "Is history repeating?" Indeed, it is, as one could tell from the repetitive usage of loaded terms and phrases like "Great Depression," "meltdown," "apocalypse," "Armageddon" and more to describe the just-on-time cratering of the American economy. After the strange bedfellows in both parties torpedoed Bush, Bernanke and Paulson's so-called bailout, more than $1 trillion of market value in American equities disappeared in a single day. The Dow Jones average set a record for quickest suicide dive in a single day. Other indexes sunk to multiyear lows, wiping out years of value, and stocks across the board went negative like Ann Coulter. In fact, the only major stock that actually advanced on Monday was Campbell Soup. Can there be a more fitting metaphor for the American economy stuck beneath the Bush administration's thumb? But the reruns, and their loaded terminology, are merging: Bush himself is just another iteration of the infamous "New World Order" instituted by his father while trying to, what else, convince the American public that it needed to go to war against Saddam Hussein. The revisionism is transparent, befitting a government that cares nothing of what its people actually think. Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show" recently juxtaposed Bush's address on the financial cataclysm with his pre-invasion speech in 2003 and found -- surprise! -- they were exactly the same. This is a long way of saying that this particularly frightening crux of historical geopolitics, fascism and environmental calamity has been a long time coming. Failing banks? Deregulation. Endless war? Homeland security. Total information awareness? Transparent government. Bankrupt economy? The fundamentals are strong. "Here's my question," Petruno adds. "If this is remembered as Black September, will that end up being too gentle a reference to what actually happened to the American financial system this month? It is beyond comprehension for people who have been on Wall Street their entire lives. I can only imagine how absolutely stunned the American public must be. Stunned, and very afraid." It should be. From a military brigade armed for action in the homeland in blatant transgression of Posse Comitatus to what ex-hedge funder and financial personality Jim Cramer recently called "financial terrorism," the United States is pushing forward back. To start with, the bailout was obvious theft, but our situation is more precarious than you think. The hyperreal credit default swap market, which few understand although it is estimated to involve tens if not hundreds of global trillions, is faltering under the weight of its own Ponzi origins. The scenario significantly worsens once you factor in the given that countries like China and others who have denominated their loans in dollars are shouldering our exploding debt, along with oil-soaked sovereign wealth funds from nations whose civil liberties records suck ass. As I wrote last year on this clusterfuck, if the Chinese call in our debts and oil-producing countries decide to peg their petrodollars to the euro, you can more or less kiss the dollar goodbye. Which means the last thing you'll need to worry about is your stocks, retirement or credit cards. You will instead worry whether or not the cash you have on hand will be worth anything at all. That is the loaded gun that bankers, brokers and the White House is holding to the public's head, as I write. That trillion erased on Monday, as well as the trillions that have been lost and will be lost in the coming months, was nothing more than a hostage situation engineered by the Bush administration, the Federal Reserve and their partners in crime in finance, insurance and real estate business. They don't call that sector FIRE for nothing. Fire destroys everything and leaves little in its catastrophic wake. Which raises the question: What's left to burn? "I think our economic situation can get much worse," argues Danny Schechter, the veteran producer and author whose 2006 indie documentary "In Debt We Trust" covered this volatile territory long before CNN would. "Jobless claims are already at a seven-year high, but the government is worried about the reaction from Asia. We are living on other countries' money, and when that spigot gets cut off, we will be in deeper doo-doo. Part of the reason for the scale of the bailout is to show Asia and sovereign wealth funds that we will protect their interests." But for how long? The Bush administration and Congress' disdain for the American people has been painfully obvious, so it's hard to believe they will call from sky-high Dubai to see how we are doing after making off with almost all of our money. "It's a high-stakes gamble, which is why Paulson tried to do it quickly in a climate of shock and crisis," Shechter says. "He knew that the longer it takes, the more opposition it will attract. This plan, if eventually passed, will pre-empt the next president from doing anything about it, because there will be no money. They are wrecking the government by wrecking the economy first." That shock doctrine, as Naomi Klein explained in her brilliant book of the same name, has foisted this same kind of disaster capitalism on country after country over the last century. Klein's book is littered with democracies that slept their way through coups and takeovers, entranced by one simulation or another. The United States was plugged into a matrix that onetime White House press secretary Ari Fleischer described as "an American way of life," adding without deceit that "it should be the goal of policy makers to protect the American way of life." By destroying it? Mission accomplished. "This is the September of surprise," Schechter concluded, "not a war on Iran but on America." Civil War, the Rerun? So, what's the next step for the shoe yet to drop? Perhaps the Army Times has the clues: (The brigade) may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control or to deal with potentially horrific scenarios such as massive poisoning and chaos in response to a chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or high-yield explosive, or CBRNE, attack. ... The 1st BCT's soldiers also will learn how to use "the first ever nonlethal package that the Army has fielded," 1st BCT commander Col. Roger Cloutier said, referring to crowd and traffic control equipment and nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them. Like every move the Bush administration has ever made, from the Patriot Act to the occupation of Iraq and down to bankrupting the American economy, this maneuver is a solution in search of a problem that it seems destined to create. Look around you. Housing is over. Stocks are nosediving. The banks are gone. War is ceaseless. Civil liberties are disappearing. Nerds at the Federal Reserve and the Treasury are taking hostages. It is madness. And mad people have a tendency to infect everyone around them. The difference is that when you go mad ... well, that's the question mark: What will happen? Ask the late Iman Morales, who went crazy in Brooklyn on a ledge 10 feet above ground and was illegally tasered by New York police officers, eventually falling to his death, immobilized. A perfect metaphor for our economy, sure, but it's also the type of literal shock we might be awaiting, as the November election creeps nearer and shit begins to hit the fan with ferocity. Many of us so-called alternative journos are not conspiracy nuts, but realists. We look at galvanizing leaders like Barack Obama, America's next president, and compare his impact to that of Lincoln, Kennedy or King -- without forgetting that all three were eventually assassinated. We are the type of realists who live through two Bush presidents, both of whom configured a New World Order, with and without the approval of the American people and the world at large. The type of realists that notice that after 9/11, we couldn't fly to Vegas, but Osama bin Laden's family was flown out of the country on government charter. And here is what we see today: Crowds protesting in the streets, the people's money wiped out thanks to the Bush administration's latest economic shock and awe. An army brigade matter-of-factly betraying Posse Comitatus for the purpose of crowd control. The public trust and wealth almost robbed cleanly with congressional approval. In other words, we see another unfolding coup, which is to say, a rerun. And there is no telling what the future may hold, or whether or not we are connecting vectors that should remain solitary. But our math has worked just fine in the past -- better than Ben Bernanke and Henry Paulson's math, that's for sure. And we'd love to be wrong about what's coming. But unfortunately that isn't up to us, and it never has been: It's up to the Bush administration. And it has never failed to let us down. http://www.alternet.org/workplace/100689/will_wall_street's_meltdown_turn_america_into_a_police_state/?page=1 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 04:52:18 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:22:18 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Rescue the Rescue by Friedman (NY Times) Message-ID: <3007933064B1409BABF52C1F96430282@shabori> OP-ED COLUMNIST. Rescue The Rescue. By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN. I was channel surfing on Monday, following the stock market's nearly 800-point collapse, when a commentator on CNBC caught my attention. He was being asked to give advice to viewers as to what were the best positions to be in to ride out the market storm. Without missing a beat, he answered: 'Cash and fetal. I'm in both -- because I know an unprecedented moment when I see one. I've been frightened for my country only a few times in my life: In 1962, when, even as a boy of 9, I followed the tension of the Cuban missile crisis; in 1963, with the assassination of J.F.K.; on Sept. 11, 2001; and on Monday, when the House Republicans brought down the bipartisan rescue package. But this moment is the scariest of all for me because the previous three were all driven by real or potential attacks on the U.S. system by outsiders. This time, we are doing it to ourselves. This time, it's our own failure to regulate our own financial system and to legislate the proper remedy that is doing us in. I've always believed that America's government was a unique political system -- one designed by geniuses so that it could be run by idiots. I was wrong. No system can be smart enough to survive this level of incompetence and recklessness by the people charged to run it. This is dangerous. We have House members, many of whom I suspect can't balance their own checkbooks, rejecting a complex rescue package because some voters, whom I fear also don't understand, swamped them with phone calls. I appreciate the popular anger against Wall Street, but you can't deal with this crisis this way. This is a credit crisis. It's all about confidence. What you can't see is how bank A will no longer lend to good company B or mortgage company C. Because no one is sure the other guy's assets and collateral are worth anything, which is why the government needs to come in and put a floor under them. Otherwise, the system will be choked of credit, like a body being choked of oxygen and turning blue. Well, you say, 'I don't own any stocks -- let those greedy monsters on Wall Street suffer. You may not own any stocks, but your pension fund owned some Lehman Brothers commercial paper and your regional bank held subprime mortgage bonds, which is why you were able refinance your house two years ago. And your local airport was insured by A.I.G., and your local municipality sold municipal bonds on Wall Street to finance your street's new sewer system, and your local car company depended on the credit markets to finance your auto loan -- and now that the credit market has dried up, Wachovia bank went bust and your neighbor lost her secretarial job there. We're all connected. As others have pointed out, you can't save Main Street and punish Wall Street anymore than you can be in a rowboat with someone you hate and think that the leak in the bottom of the boat at his end is not going to sink you, too. The world really is flat. We're all connected. Decoupling' is pure fantasy. I totally understand the resentment against Wall Street titans bringing home $60 million bonuses. But when the credit system is imperiled, as it is now, you have to focus on saving the system, even if it means bailing out people who don't deserve it. Otherwise, you're saying: I'm going to hold my breath until that Wall Street fat cat turns blue. But he's not going to turn blue; you are, or we all are. We have to get this right. My rabbi told this story at Rosh Hashana services on Tuesday: A frail 80-year-old mother is celebrating her birthday and her three sons each give her a present. Harry gives her a new house. Harvey gives her a new car and driver. And Bernie gives her a huge parrot that can recite the entire Torah. A week later, she calls her three sons together and says: 'Harry, thanks for the nice house, but I only live in one room. Harvey, thanks for the nice car, but I can't stand the driver. Bernie, thanks for giving your mother something she could really enjoy. That chicken was delicious. Message to Congress: Don't get cute. Don't give us something we don't need. Don't give us something designed to solve your political problems. Yes, Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke need to accept strict oversights and the taxpayer must be guaranteed a share in the upside profits from all rescued banks. But other than that, give them the capital and the flexibility to put out this fire. I always said to myself: Our government is so broken that it can only work in response to a huge crisis. But now we've had a huge crisis, and the system still doesn't seem to work. Our leaders, Republicans and Democrats, have gotten so out of practice of working together that even in the face of this system-threatening meltdown they could not agree on a rescue package, as if they lived on Mars and were just visiting us for the week, with no stake in the outcome. The story cannot end here. If it does, assume the fetal position. From rama.sangye at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 09:55:40 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:55:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mukul Kesavan on Jamia Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0810012125x6fe9d431m28b8b7f857f6344e@mail.gmail.com> The Telegraph Thursday , October 2 , 2008 IN LOCO PARENTIS - When a remarkable republic turns into a majoritarian StateMukul Kesavan I teach in Jamia Millia Islamia, a university in Delhi that was recently in the news because two young men said to be terrorists were killed in its vicinity, in the course of an 'encounter' or shoot-out with the police. One of these men was a student of the university. Subsequently, the police made more arrests in connection with the recent bomb blasts in Delhi and two of those arrested were enrolled in Jamia. The university authorities made it clear that they would deal strictly with any student found to be involved in terrorism. The university also declared that it would provide legal aid to the arrested students (a) because they were members of Jamia in good standing, and (b) till such time as their guilt was proved they were entitled to due process. The response to this declaration was at once odd and unsurprising. Various spokespersons for the Bharatiya Janata Party demanded that the vice-chancellor be sacked for using the public purse (Jamia is a UGC-funded Central university) for succouring terrorists. The vice-chancellor of a university in Jodhpur, in the course of a speech inaugurating a seminar on "Indian Women: Changes and Challenges", found the time to regret that Jamia's '*kulapati*' was supporting terrorists. I think these reactions aren't just odd, they're contrary to every intuition Indians have about their republic and about civil society. We're a constitutional republic, a nation of laws. Ravi Shankar Prasad, the spokesman of the BJP, almost certainly knows that Article 39A of our Constitution sets out the principle of legal aid. It does so because the presumption of innocence and the right to a free trial become meaningful only if the accused has proper legal representation. Once we allow that public money can, indeed must, be spent to ensure that people have legal representation, it becomes hard to find a charitable explanation for the BJP's outrage. I have a son who, in less than two years, will go to university. If, god forbid, he finds himself in police remand for whatever reason (murder, armed robbery, menacing the faculty, fraud), I'd want his university to behave as if it were acting in my place, *in loco parentis*. I would expect the proctor of the university to liaise with the station house officer to make sure that such rights of visitation as he might have in that ghastly circumstance were given him, to hire a lawyer to see if he could be released on bail, and if the nature of the alleged offence didn't allow that, to try to have him transferred to judicial custody. Police remand is a dreadful form of imprisonment in India; unlike judicial custody where the procedural restraints of prison manuals apply, the police in their station-house lockups have a free hand in working suspects over. Any university that washes its hands of its students the moment they are arrested by the police because it doesn't want to be associated with notoriety or (as in this case) the taint of terrorism is a cringing and wretched institution undeserving of a citizen's respect or a parent's trust. Interestingly, Jamia has supplied legal aid to arrested students before. Some years ago, dozens of its students were arrested on charges that were later shown to be unfounded. But their innocence isn't relevant: the point is that no one thought, at that time, to object to the university's aid. The reason for the difference isn't hard to find. The previous incident involved a skirmish on the campus; this time round, the students were suspected of collusion in terror. But it wasn't just the gravity of the offence that made the difference; the narrative that the BJP hoped to exploit was that of * jihadi* terrorism and the two useful facts they were rubbing together like flints were (i) that these students were Muslims, and (ii) that Jamia Millia Islamia is a remarkably Muslim-sounding name. "Muslim university bats for Muslim terrorists": for a party whose reason for being is the demonization of minorities, specifically Muslims, this was a script made in heaven. So some background is in order. Jamia Millia Islamia began life as a nationalist college. It was born of the non-cooperation movement, the first anti-colonial mass agitation led by Mahatma Gandhi. A group of young radical students and alumni of the Aligarh Muslim University, dissatisfied with their alma mater's compradore politics, decided to establish a nationalist, anti-colonial alternative to AMU. Gandhi, Maulana Mohammad Ali, Zakir Hussain, Hakim Ajmal Khan, M.A. Ansari are only some of the great names who nurtured Jamia. It's not just ironical, it's grotesque that the BJP, born of parent organizations like the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Hindu Mahasabha, which were notable for their distance from the great anti-colonial struggles that won India freedom, should make a bid to impugn Jamia's commitment to India's integrity. But history aside, it's worth reflecting on the way in which we respond to news related to terrorist atrocity. In the Jamia encounter, a policeman and two terror suspects were killed. Years of staged shootouts have induced a reflexive scepticism about police encounters. In this case, a policeman was killed which seemed to suggest that someone was shooting back. However, given the police's fraught relations with Muslim neighbourhoods, this fact cut very little ice with residents of Jamia Nagar. But even if we allow that on the face of it the police had reason to raid the premises in which these two young men were killed, the complete lack of concern in the majority of news reports that two young men had been summarily killed (Atif was in his early twenties and Sajid was all of seventeen) was dismaying. In the summer of 2005, the British police killed Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian with a brown skin, because they were convinced he was a terrorist. He wasn't; it was a dreadful mistake and though it was made in good faith, three years later, the inquest into the incident now threatens the career of Britain's top policeman, Ian Blair. It's at least possible that the Delhi Police, likewise, got it wrong, that Atif or Sajid or both were innocent, that they were caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, but nearly every newspaper I read baldly reported the death of two terrorists without any caveats or qualifications. The synchronized bombings that have ravaged Indian cities over the past year have led the police, unsurprisingly, to look for Muslim villains. It has led political commentators from the *Hindutva* right to make interesting distinctions. One worthy tried to distinguish Muslim terrorists from Hindu rioters and pogrom artists. A rioter, he argued, could, a few years after the riot, settle down into society again as a solid citizen. A terrorist, on the other hand, was implacably committed to the subversion of the State. I can see what he means: Gujarat is full of solid citizens who looted and killed recreationally a few years ago and now led respectable lives unmolested by the police. But given the fact that the most recent explosions in Modasa (Gujarat) and Malegaon (Maharashtra) occurred in Muslim localities and had mainly Muslims casualties, the police might try to diversify their enquiries. It was only two years ago that two members of a Hindu militia blew themselves up in Nanded while making a powerful bomb. When people, policemen and political parties buy into the narrative of *a priori* Muslim guilt, they run the risk of turning this remarkable republic into an ordinary, ugly, majoritarian State. mukulkesavan at hotmail.com From nandini.c.sen at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 10:58:33 2008 From: nandini.c.sen at gmail.com (Nandini Sen) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:58:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Eid Mubarak!!! Message-ID: <6581f1af0810012228nc479d40gf773fbbaee59db3e@mail.gmail.com> Dear friends, Eid mubarak to all of you! Let's pray that the world we live in becomes less fragmented and more united. Here's to a happier and safer world. Best wishes, Nandini.C.sen -- Nandini C.Sen Senior Lecturer, Dept. of English. Bharati College. Delhi University. From nkapoor at webrachna.com Thu Oct 2 11:32:24 2008 From: nkapoor at webrachna.com (Nishikant Kapoor) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 23:02:24 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] DesiHaat.com - Announcing the formal launch... Message-ID: Dear Fellow Desies, We are very proud to announce the formal launch of an innovative and unique online resource for the Indian community - http://www.DesiHaat.com/. The timing of this launch could not have been any better, i.e., right in time for blessings from the Goddess of Wealth, Devi Laxmi. And to really light up your Diwali, and of course, to introduce DesiHaat.com, we are offering you a chance to participate in Diwali Quiz, and win the first prize of $101! Yes, $101 ... C A S H ... Now that you have your account info, you can visit http://www.desihaat.com right away, or continue to read further about DesiHaat.com. DesiHaat.com (DH) offers a unique opportunity to local entities to showcase their latest products and information through the use of a dedicated channel on the Home page of DesiHaat.com - a channel that is created and maintained entirely by the local entity. They get to put in what they think is the best information for their consumers - text, pictures, audio, video, whatever, but decent and family-friendly. Users from the community on the other hand, get to decide which entities' channels they want to retain on THEIR Home page. If they like the local entity, and want to stay abreast with the latest news/promos from that entity, good for both otherwise, users can simply turn off (remove) that channel from the main page. DesiHaat.com thrives on the community participation, and eliminates incorrect, ineffective and futile information based on the feedback, thereby leaving you with the fresh, accurate and trusting information. We hope you will like DesiHaat and be an integral member of this online community. Please feel free to let us know if you have any questions, concerns and/or suggestions. Happy Diwali and take care, Administrator, DesiHaat.com (DH) http://www.desihaat.com/ Bringing the Desi community together...in our very own Haat style. From vivek at sarai.net Thu Oct 2 13:03:07 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:03:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGVycm9yaXN0c+KAmSBkaWVkIG9mIGd1bnNo?= =?utf-8?q?ot_wounds?= In-Reply-To: <6D2656A4AC2A43FFA49730C130368869@shabori> References: <6353c690810010731r16733173td1c5feb64e71a00c@mail.gmail.com><9c06aab30810010733w624c2812x912aa3685026b4bd@mail.gmail.com><6353c690810010737l235a8bc0l2bc847512a5ff3d0@mail.gmail.com><9c06aab30810010741x7e0b4fc8hbfeceda1fabb7167@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810011100r5c03d44fnae687d09b41cbfd0@mail.gmail.com> <6D2656A4AC2A43FFA49730C130368869@shabori> Message-ID: <48E47933.5050700@sarai.net> Nono, not at all-- as far as I am concerned, this is not enough personal information. Pawan could you please explain to us how and in what context you have come to see so many encounters first hand? Have I missed some important biographical details about you? Please elaborate. TaraPrakash wrote: > Please keep such mails which are of the personal nature away from the list. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pawan Durani" > To: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > Cc: "sarai list" > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 2:00 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list]‘Terrorists’ died of gunshot wounds > > > >> Dear Shivam Vij Ji, >> Eid Mubarak >> >> Since you seem to be interested in 'terrorism' and 'encounters', i would >> you >> to understand that even in self defense where the opponent is firing, the >> shootings are not aimed at legs. >> >> I have seen many shootings and many encounters . However if you have been >> told a different story by your employers or terrorist friends like Yasin >> Malik, please do correct yourself. >> >> When someone aims a gun at you , you fire anywhere in self defense. And >> thats a human psychology. >> >> Regards >> >> Pawan Durani >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> wrote: >> >> >>> Oh sorry! But it does not, then, analyse that if they were shot in the >>> head and chest, it was not an encounter in which the criminal with a >>> gun would be shot in the leg in self-defence. >>> best >>> shivam >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> wrote: >>> >>>> At times, these days people tend to get a verbal diarrhea of commenting >>>> >>> on >>> >>>> each post without reading it at length and clarity. Its very common. >>>> >>>> Kindly read carefully. Hope the story is still interesting. >>>> >>>> Love >>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/1/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interesting that this story does not mention that the 'terrorists' >>>>> were shot in the head. >>>>> best >>>>> shivam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >>>>> >>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 'Terrorists' died of gunshot wounds >>>>>> Rhythma Kaul >>>>>> >>>>>> The Hindustan Times >>>>>> >>>>>> New Delhi, September 30, 2008 >>>>>> >>>>>> "Atif Ameen and Mohammad Sajid, the alleged terrorists who were >>>>>> killed >>>>>> >>> in >>> >>>>>> the encounter at Batla House on September 19, died specifically of >>>>>> >>>>> fire-arm >>>>> >>>>>> injuries," said one of the forensic experts who did the autopsy at >>>>>> Jai >>>>>> Prakash Narayan Apex Trauma Centre at All India Institute of Medical >>>>>> Sciences (AIIMS). >>>>>> >>>>>> "I can say with 100 per cent assurance that both the men weren't >>>>>> >>> engaged >>> >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>> any scuffle before their death. There were no scuffle marks, but >>>>>> only >>>>>> >>>>> bullet >>>>> >>>>>> wounds on their bodies," he said. >>>>>> >>>>>> Physiological evidence indicated Atif and Sajid were both in their >>>>>> >>> early >>> >>>>>> 20s, with Sajid being slightly younger. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since there was no age-related query from the police, it has not >>>>>> been >>>>>> revealed in the autopsy report. "Still, we have collected samples, >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>> if >>> >>>>>> the police ask us in future to ascertain their age, we can do it," >>>>>> >>> said >>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> doctor. >>>>>> >>>>>> During the autopsy, bullets were found lodged inside the bodies of >>>>>> >>> both >>> >>>>> Atif >>>>> >>>>>> and Sajid. Atif's body had a total of 21 injuries spread across the >>>>>> >>> torso >>> >>>>>> and thighs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sajid's body had 13 injury marks, with most of the wounds located on >>>>>> >>> his >>> >>>>>> head and chest. >>>>>> >>>>>> One mark was on his right leg, which, the doctors say, could have >>>>>> been >>>>>> >>>>> made >>>>> >>>>>> when a bullet grazed past his leg. >>>>>> >>>>>> When asked how many bullets were lodged inside the bodies, the >>>>>> doctor >>>>>> >>>>> said >>>>> >>>>>> that it was impossible to come up with a number. >>>>>> >>>>>> "These days, the weapons have become very sophisticated. We get >>>>>> >>> frangible >>> >>>>>> bullets that explode inside the target, with one bullet making >>>>>> >>> multiple >>> >>>>>> wounds. We can tell you how many wounds were made by bullet >>>>>> injuries. >>>>>> >>> How >>> >>>>>> many bullets were fired is for the ballistic experts to correlate >>>>>> and >>>>>> determine," he said. >>>>>> >>>>>> The three-member forensic team worked overtime to submit the report >>>>>> >>>>> within >>>>> >>>>>> three days of the bodies being handed over to it on September 22. >>>>>> >>>>>> The autopsy procedure unlike that for Inspector M.C. Sharma, who was >>>>>> >>> also >>> >>>>>> killed in the encounter was not done in-camera. "That's because the >>>>>> >>>>> police >>>>> >>>>>> didn't place any such request before us," said the doctor. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for making the report public, the doctor said, "No one can have >>>>>> >>> access >>> >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>> the autopsy report within 90 days, not even the family." >>>>>> >>>>>> Inspector Sharma's autopsy report was completed late on the night of >>>>>> September 26 but has still not been handed over to his family. >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 13:34:58 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:04:58 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Rescue the Rescue by Friedman Message-ID: > 1. Rescue the Rescue by Friedman (NY Times) (TaraPrakash) ... > The world really is flat. Good old Thomas Friedman, never ever miss the chance to plug your book! For shits & giggles, here's some excerpts from Matt Taibbi's skewering of Mr. simple_analysis. From a 2005 review called "Flathead: The peculiar genius of Thomas L. Friedman" (NY Press, 4/20/05) :-) "On an ideological level, Friedman's new book is the worst, most boring kind of middlebrow horseshit. If its literary peculiarities could somehow be removed from the equation, The World Is Flat would appear as no more than an unusually long pamphlet replete with the kind of plug-filled, free-trader leg-humping that passes for thought in this country. It is a tale of a man who walks 10 feet in front of his house armed with a late-model Blackberry and comes back home five minutes later to gush to his wife that hospitals now use the internet to outsource the reading of CAT scans. Man flies on planes, observes the wonders of capitalism, says we're not in Kansas anymore. (He actually says we're not in Kansas anymore.)" ... "In the new flat world, argument is no longer a two-way street for people like the president and the country's most important columnist. You no longer have to worry about actually convincing anyone; the process ends when you make the case. Things are true because you say they are. The only thing that matters is how sure you sound when you say it. In politics, this allows America to invade a castrated Iraq in self-defense. In the intellectual world, Friedman is now probing the outer limits of this trick's potential, and it's absolutely perfect, a stroke of genius, that he's choosing to argue that the world is flat. The only thing that would have been better would be if he had chosen to argue that the moon was made of cheese. And that's basically what he's doing here. The internet is speeding up business communications, and global labor markets are more fluid than ever. Therefore, the moon is made of cheese. That is the rhetorical gist of The World Is Flat. It's brilliant. Only an America-hater could fail to appreciate it." ...etc etc you get the idea, here's more from Taibbi's review "The book's genesis is conversation Friedman has with Nandan Nilekani, the CEO of Infosys. Nilekani causally mutters to Friedman: "Tom, the playing field is being leveled." To you and me, an innocent throwaway phrase—the level playing field being, after all, one of the most oft-repeated stock ideas in the history of human interaction. Not to Friedman. Ten minutes after his talk with Nilekani, he is pitching a tent in his company van on the road back from the Infosys campus in Bangalore: As I left the Infosys campus that evening along the road back to Bangalore, I kept chewing on that phrase: "The playing field is being leveled." What Nandan is saying, I thought, is that the playing field is being flattened... Flattened? Flattened? My God, he's telling me the world is flat! This is like three pages into the book, and already the premise is totally fucked. Nilekani said level, not flat. The two concepts are completely different. Level is a qualitative idea that implies equality and competitive balance; flat is a physical, geographic concept that Friedman, remember, is openly contrasting—ironically, as it were—with Columbus's discovery that the world is round. Except for one thing. The significance of Columbus's discovery was that on a round earth, humanity is more interconnected than on a flat one. On a round earth, the two most distant points are closer together than they are on a flat earth. But Friedman is going to spend the next 470 pages turning the "flat world" into a metaphor for global interconnectedness. Furthermore, he is specifically going to use the word round to describe the old, geographically isolated, unconnected world. "Let me... share with you some of the encounters that led me to conclude that the world is no longer round," he says. He will literally travel backward in time, against the current of human knowledge. To recap: Friedman, imagining himself Columbus, journeys toward India. Columbus, he notes, traveled in three ships; Friedman "had Lufthansa business class." When he reaches India—Bangalore to be specific—he immediately plays golf. His caddy, he notes with interest, wears a cap with the 3M logo. Surrounding the golf course are billboards for Texas Instruments and Pizza Hut. The Pizza Hut billboard reads: "Gigabites of Taste." Because he sees a Pizza Hut ad on the way to a golf course, something that could never happen in America, Friedman concludes: "No, this definitely wasn't Kansas." After golf, he meets Nilekani, who casually mentions that the playing field is level. A nothing phrase, but Friedman has traveled all the way around the world to hear it. Man travels to India, plays golf, sees Pizza Hut billboard, listens to Indian CEO mutter small talk, writes 470-page book reversing the course of 2000 years of human thought. That he misattributes his thesis to Nilekani is perfect: Friedman is a person who not only speaks in malapropisms, he also hears malapropisms. Told level; heard flat. This is the intellectual version of Far Out Space Nuts, when NASA repairman Bob Denver sets a whole sitcom in motion by pressing "launch" instead of "lunch" in a space capsule. And once he hits that button, the rocket takes off." ... "Friedman spends the rest of his huge book piling one insane image on top of the other, so that by the end—and I'm not joking here—we are meant to understand that the flat world is a giant ice-cream sundae that is more beef than sizzle, in which everyone can fit his hose into his fire hydrant, and in which most but not all of us are covered with a mostly good special sauce." ... "According to the mathematics of the book, if you add an IPac to your offshoring, you go from running to sprinting with gazelles and from eating with lions to devouring with them. Although these 10 flatteners existed already by the time Friedman wrote The Lexus and the Olive Tree—a period of time referred to in the book as Globalization 2.0, with Globalization 1.0 beginning with Columbus—they did not come together to bring about Globalization 3.0, the flat world, until the 10 flatteners had, with the help of the steroids, gone through their "Triple Convergence." The first convergence is the merging of software and hardware to the degree that makes, say, the Konica Minolta Bizhub (the product featured in Friedman's favorite television commercial) possible. The second convergence came when new technologies combined with new ways of doing business. The third convergence came when the people of certain low-wage industrial countries—India, Russia, China, among others—walked onto the playing field. Thanks to steroids, incidentally, they occasionally are "not just walking" but "jogging and even sprinting" onto the playing field. From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 17:24:26 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:54:26 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Rescue the Rescue by Friedman References: Message-ID: Hi all and Naeem. Thanks for this wonderful post responding to Friedman's false claim that the world has become flat. Someone on a blog entry said that the world is flat as Friedman's head is flat. I wrote a detailed critique of the book in the backdrop of the name change farce from Bangalor to Bangaluru. Both always existed, Friedman could see the former; Bangluru, the native Kanadigas are feeling left out in the "flattened world" is ready to assert. Let me see if I can fish the entire paper out for the list. Till then, here is an excerpt The Bangalore he describes in his book has nothing intrinsically Bangalorish about it. In his narrative, he plays at the golf courses, attends meetings in five-star hotels and western-looking multi-storey office complexes. Friedman’s Bangalore is a debangalorized, deterritorialized, delocalized Bangalore, which can be found in any city of America. About this Bangalore, Friedman says in The World is Flat, “No, this definitely wasn't Kansas. It didn't even seem like India.” He further asks, “Was this the New World, the Old World, or the Next World?” (Friedman 13) The answer perhaps should be the third one. Whereas “the old world“, for Friedman, represents India, not developed and, due to poor infrastructure, not easily accessible to all, “the new world” represents very well developed American cities with very restricted access to outsiders. “The next world” perhaps can be said to exist anywhere, anytime. It is not constrained by any place or time, and Friedman thinks, is open to all. As self-styled discoverer of this new world, Friedman has absolute right to compare himself with Columbus, and he makes full use of the opportunity by doing so at the very outset of his scripture. An avid student of history, even though one does not have to be so to know this, surely knows that explorers like Columbus, in order to motivate royalty and aristocrats to support their further voyages, did inflate their successes by means of concocting fabulous and misleading yarns about the discovered places, with one fundamental moral: the place promises prosperity, you must invest in it. Columbus did sell to some European aristocrats the idea of concentrating on the new world he discovered, for economic prosperity; Friedman seems to be doing the same in a different context. His motive is to give a favorable publicity to Bangalore, so that people from out of Bangalore do not mind shifting to this new world. After reading his book (which in addition to other epithets, calls Bangalore, “the Silicon Valley of India”,), if one, ignorant about the real Silicon Valley, decides to move to Friedman’s Bangalore, as Indians from various parts of the country are doing for employment, one will find a very squalid picture of the real Silicon Valley. The Silicon Valley, for him, will have dirty, narrow, polluted roads with lots of potholes, with traffic hardly moving on them. On the other hand if a resident of America visits the real Silicon Valley to have a feel of Bangalore, he will find Bangalore a sophisticated city with very well developed infrastructure. He won’t mind relocating to the city his boss wants him to, to manage the back office of his firm. Firms in the U.S. increasingly want their employees to relocate to Bangalore so that the management of those firms remains in “trained, trustworthy” hands. This trend is likely to intensify with the time. Such a “feel good factor” offered by Friedman helps to convince a reluctant American employee to move to Bangalore. Friedman is really so much like Columbus, when it comes to exaggeration about the newly discovered territory. However, there is one fundamental difference between Columbus and Friedman as explorers. Whereas Columbus’s faulty calculations about the earth led him to a new scientific discovery that the earth is round, Friedman’s incorrect calculations about the new world led him to an incorrect economic discovery that the world is flat. This discovery is based more on faith than reason, therefore, requires a religious zeal to be believed. But then there are heretics who challenge Friedman’s sermons on Globalization. Friedman, evidently, has not been successful in selling his theory of “the world is flat” to many nonbelievers. He has been criticized by various globalist writers. But more interestingly, he has earned a significant amount of bad publicity even in the blog literature. It is notable to read the following poem “On first looking into Friedman’s Flathead” by James D. Macdonald Criticizing Friedman’s romantic ideas about Globalization, composed in the fashion of one of the romantic poets, John Keats. The reference, in the context of Friedman, to Don Juan and Jose Canseco, perhaps symbolizing villainy, mendacity and dishonesty undermining the flat, level playing field, are very remarkable. Here, interestingly, the poet is using for his heresy, the same medium, communication technology, which, in the first place, made the religion of Globalization possible, and the same as the auspex used for disseminating his prophesy of Globalization to the world. Much have I travell’d in a chartered jet And munched betimes upon a Cinnabon; Upon my iPod listened to Don Juan Which I downloaded from the wireless ‘Net’. I did not understand the ‘Nineties lore Of Windows systems and of Pizza Hut, How one was opened and the other shut, Till I heard Friedman speak in metaphor. Then felt I like a steroid in a vein: Jose Canseco on a level field, Whose random thoughts of glory and of pain Were like an ice-cream sundae all congealed. The moral is, when put by words in train, That which does not exist can’t be revealed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 4:04 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rescue the Rescue by Friedman >> 1. Rescue the Rescue by Friedman (NY Times) (TaraPrakash) > ... >> The world really is flat. > > Good old Thomas Friedman, never ever miss the chance to plug your book! > > For shits & giggles, here's some excerpts from Matt Taibbi's skewering > of Mr. simple_analysis. From a 2005 review called "Flathead: The > peculiar genius of Thomas L. Friedman" (NY Press, 4/20/05) > > :-) > > "On an ideological level, Friedman's new book is the worst, most > boring kind of middlebrow horseshit. If its literary peculiarities > could somehow be removed from the equation, The World Is Flat would > appear as no more than an unusually long pamphlet replete with the > kind of plug-filled, free-trader leg-humping that passes for thought > in this country. It is a tale of a man who walks 10 feet in front of > his house armed with a late-model Blackberry and comes back home five > minutes later to gush to his wife that hospitals now use the internet > to outsource the reading of CAT scans. Man flies on planes, observes > the wonders of capitalism, says we're not in Kansas anymore. (He > actually says we're not in Kansas anymore.)" > > ... > > > "In the new flat world, argument is no longer a two-way street for > people like the president and the country's most important columnist. > You no longer have to worry about actually convincing anyone; the > process ends when you make the case. Things are true because you say > they are. The only thing that matters is how sure you sound when you > say it. In politics, this allows America to invade a castrated Iraq in > self-defense. In the intellectual world, Friedman is now probing the > outer limits of this trick's potential, and it's absolutely perfect, a > stroke of genius, that he's choosing to argue that the world is flat. > The only thing that would have been better would be if he had chosen > to argue that the moon was made of cheese. > > And that's basically what he's doing here. The internet is speeding up > business communications, and global labor markets are more fluid than > ever. Therefore, the moon is made of cheese. That is the rhetorical > gist of The World Is Flat. It's brilliant. Only an America-hater could > fail to appreciate it." > > ...etc etc you get the idea, here's more from Taibbi's review > > "The book's genesis is conversation Friedman has with Nandan Nilekani, > the CEO of Infosys. Nilekani causally mutters to Friedman: "Tom, the > playing field is being leveled." To you and me, an innocent throwaway > phrase—the level playing field being, after all, one of the most > oft-repeated stock ideas in the history of human interaction. Not to > Friedman. Ten minutes after his talk with Nilekani, he is pitching a > tent in his company van on the road back from the Infosys campus in > Bangalore: > > As I left the Infosys campus that evening along the road back to > Bangalore, I kept chewing on that phrase: "The playing field is being > leveled." > > What Nandan is saying, I thought, is that the playing field is being > flattened... Flattened? Flattened? My God, he's telling me the world > is flat! > > This is like three pages into the book, and already the premise is > totally fucked. Nilekani said level, not flat. The two concepts are > completely different. Level is a qualitative idea that implies > equality and competitive balance; flat is a physical, geographic > concept that Friedman, remember, is openly contrasting—ironically, as > it were—with Columbus's discovery that the world is round. > > Except for one thing. The significance of Columbus's discovery was > that on a round earth, humanity is more interconnected than on a flat > one. On a round earth, the two most distant points are closer together > than they are on a flat earth. But Friedman is going to spend the next > 470 pages turning the "flat world" into a metaphor for global > interconnectedness. Furthermore, he is specifically going to use the > word round to describe the old, geographically isolated, unconnected > world. > > "Let me... share with you some of the encounters that led me to > conclude that the world is no longer round," he says. He will > literally travel backward in time, against the current of human > knowledge. > > To recap: Friedman, imagining himself Columbus, journeys toward India. > Columbus, he notes, traveled in three ships; Friedman "had Lufthansa > business class." When he reaches India—Bangalore to be specific—he > immediately plays golf. His caddy, he notes with interest, wears a cap > with the 3M logo. Surrounding the golf course are billboards for Texas > Instruments and Pizza Hut. The Pizza Hut billboard reads: "Gigabites > of Taste." Because he sees a Pizza Hut ad on the way to a golf course, > something that could never happen in America, Friedman concludes: "No, > this definitely wasn't Kansas." > > After golf, he meets Nilekani, who casually mentions that the playing > field is level. A nothing phrase, but Friedman has traveled all the > way around the world to hear it. Man travels to India, plays golf, > sees Pizza Hut billboard, listens to Indian CEO mutter small talk, > writes 470-page book reversing the course of 2000 years of human > thought. That he misattributes his thesis to Nilekani is perfect: > Friedman is a person who not only speaks in malapropisms, he also > hears malapropisms. Told level; heard flat. This is the intellectual > version of Far Out Space Nuts, when NASA repairman Bob Denver sets a > whole sitcom in motion by pressing "launch" instead of "lunch" in a > space capsule. And once he hits that button, the rocket takes off." > > ... > > "Friedman spends the rest of his huge book piling one insane image on > top of the other, so that by the end—and I'm not joking here—we are > meant to understand that the flat world is a giant ice-cream sundae > that is more beef than sizzle, in which everyone can fit his hose into > his fire hydrant, and in which most but not all of us are covered with > a mostly good special sauce." > > ... > > > "According to the mathematics of the book, if you add an IPac to your > offshoring, you go from running to sprinting with gazelles and from > eating with lions to devouring with them. Although these 10 flatteners > existed already by the time Friedman wrote The Lexus and the Olive > Tree—a period of time referred to in the book as Globalization 2.0, > with Globalization 1.0 beginning with Columbus—they did not come > together to bring about Globalization 3.0, the flat world, until the > 10 flatteners had, with the help of the steroids, gone through their > "Triple Convergence." The first convergence is the merging of software > and hardware to the degree that makes, say, the Konica Minolta Bizhub > (the product featured in Friedman's favorite television commercial) > possible. The second convergence came when new technologies combined > with new ways of doing business. The third convergence came when the > people of certain low-wage industrial countries—India, Russia, China, > among others—walked onto the playing field. Thanks to steroids, > incidentally, they occasionally are "not just walking" but "jogging > and even sprinting" onto the playing field. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Oct 2 17:38:21 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (=?utf-8?B?4KSr4KS84KS+4KSk4KS/4KSu4KS+IEZhdGltYQ==?=) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:38:21 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] DesiHaat.com - Announcing the formal launch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <118987.85640.qm@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear fellow Desi Great that you advertize your desihaat on the day of Gandhi Jayanti and Eid, but wish your desi friends only a happy divali. May Lakshmi shower so much more dollars on you that you drown. SF --- गुरु, 2/10/08 को, Nishikant Kapoor ने लिखा: > द्वारा: Nishikant Kapoor > विषय: [Reader-list] DesiHaat.com - Announcing the formal launch... > To: reader-list at sarai.net > दिनांक: गुरुवार, 2 अक्टूबर, 2008, 11:32 AM > Dear Fellow Desies, > > We are very proud to announce the formal launch of an > innovative and > unique online resource for the Indian community - > http://www.DesiHaat.com/. > > The timing of this launch could not have been any better, > i.e., right in > time for blessings from the Goddess of Wealth, Devi > Laxmi. And to > really light up your Diwali, and of course, to introduce > DesiHaat.com, > we are offering you a chance to participate in Diwali Quiz, > and win the > first prize of $101! Yes, $101 ... C A S H ... > > Now that you have your account info, you can visit > http://www.desihaat.com right away, or continue to read > further about > DesiHaat.com. > > DesiHaat.com (DH) offers a unique opportunity to local > entities to > showcase their latest products and information through the > use of a > dedicated channel on the Home page of DesiHaat.com - a > channel that is > created and maintained entirely by the local entity. They > get to put in > what they think is the best information for their consumers > - text, > pictures, audio, video, whatever, but decent and > family-friendly. > > Users from the community on the other hand, get to decide > which > entities' channels they want to retain on THEIR Home > page. If they like > the local entity, and want to stay abreast with the latest > news/promos > from that entity, good for both otherwise, users can simply > turn off > (remove) that channel from the main page. > > DesiHaat.com thrives on the community participation, and > eliminates > incorrect, ineffective and futile information based on the > feedback, > thereby leaving you with the fresh, accurate and trusting > information. > We hope you will like DesiHaat and be an integral member of > this online > community. > > Please feel free to let us know if you have any questions, > concerns > and/or suggestions. > > Happy Diwali and take care, > Administrator, DesiHaat.com (DH) > http://www.desihaat.com/ > Bringing the Desi community together...in our very own Haat > style. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 17:55:16 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:25:16 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] DesiHaat.com - Announcing the formal launch... References: <118987.85640.qm@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5CA71B55864C4097A5B284AF5AA31C05@shabori> Hi Fatimah and all. I have noticed that spammers start getting worse if you respond to them. Sometimes spams are sent to randomly generated IDs, once you respond to them, you are confirming the existence of the e-mail account. They may not drown in the wealth, they might drown you and us in the spams now. It might sound moderator like, but I will request you not to post the mails of personal nature to the list. In this mail you were addressing some wayward spammer. If you must, please do not use reply all option. Regards TaraPrakash ----- Original Message ----- From: "फ़ातिमा Fatima" To: ; "Nishikant Kapoor" Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] DesiHaat.com - Announcing the formal launch... > Dear fellow Desi > Great that you advertize your desihaat on the day of Gandhi Jayanti and > Eid, but wish your desi friends only a happy divali. > > May Lakshmi shower so much more dollars on you that you drown. > > SF > > --- गुरु, 2/10/08 को, Nishikant Kapoor ने लिखा: > >> द्वारा: Nishikant Kapoor >> विषय: [Reader-list] DesiHaat.com - Announcing the formal launch... >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> दिनांक: गुरुवार, 2 अक्टूबर, 2008, 11:32 AM > >> Dear Fellow Desies, >> >> We are very proud to announce the formal launch of an >> innovative and >> unique online resource for the Indian community - >> http://www.DesiHaat.com/. >> >> The timing of this launch could not have been any better, >> i.e., right in >> time for blessings from the Goddess of Wealth, Devi >> Laxmi. And to >> really light up your Diwali, and of course, to introduce >> DesiHaat.com, >> we are offering you a chance to participate in Diwali Quiz, >> and win the >> first prize of $101! Yes, $101 ... C A S H ... >> >> Now that you have your account info, you can visit >> http://www.desihaat.com right away, or continue to read >> further about >> DesiHaat.com. >> >> DesiHaat.com (DH) offers a unique opportunity to local >> entities to >> showcase their latest products and information through the >> use of a >> dedicated channel on the Home page of DesiHaat.com - a >> channel that is >> created and maintained entirely by the local entity. They >> get to put in >> what they think is the best information for their consumers >> - text, >> pictures, audio, video, whatever, but decent and >> family-friendly. >> >> Users from the community on the other hand, get to decide >> which >> entities' channels they want to retain on THEIR Home >> page. If they like >> the local entity, and want to stay abreast with the latest >> news/promos >> from that entity, good for both otherwise, users can simply >> turn off >> (remove) that channel from the main page. >> >> DesiHaat.com thrives on the community participation, and >> eliminates >> incorrect, ineffective and futile information based on the >> feedback, >> thereby leaving you with the fresh, accurate and trusting >> information. >> We hope you will like DesiHaat and be an integral member of >> this online >> community. >> >> Please feel free to let us know if you have any questions, >> concerns >> and/or suggestions. >> >> Happy Diwali and take care, >> Administrator, DesiHaat.com (DH) >> http://www.desihaat.com/ >> Bringing the Desi community together...in our very own Haat >> style. >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shahzulf at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 19:58:19 2008 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sindh-Rajasthan Conference 2009 Message-ID: <6617.54238.qm@web38808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear All,   The Forum for Peace and Harmony is going to organize a three days Sindh-Rajasthan Conference on January 10-12, 2009 in Hyderabad, Sindh, Pakistan. The conference will cover following themes and several activities will be organized under them:   Peace Initiatives   Art & Literature Culture Journalism Parliamentarians Migrated people Divided Communities / Border Communities Dalits  Agriculture Women Youth Social Movements Children Issues Pilgrimages / Sacred Place of Sindh Rajasthan Labor Movements  Trade & Commerce     The friends in India are requested to send the passport details of the participants from Rajasthan till October 15, 2008 on following email addresses:   India(Rajasthan): Mr. Hindu Singh Sodho: hssodgha at gmail.com Pakistan: Zulfiqar Shah: shahzulf at yahoo.com   The passport details required are:   Name: Father’s / Husband’s Name: Passport No: Date of Issue: Date of Expiry: Place of Issue: Date of Birth: Address: Profession:   If any of the friends / organization in India, Pakistan and elsewhere wants to organize any activity in the conference under the above themes, please write to the conference coordinator no later than November 15, 2008.   Please feel free to give any suggestion or hold query.   Kind Regards,   Zulfiqar Shah Conference Coordinator Sindh-Rajasthan Conference Cell: +92 321 3087024 Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 20:28:25 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:28:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Soumya_murder=3A_Sheila_in_dock_ov?= =?windows-1252?q?er_=91adventurous=92_remark?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690810020756g45faebb3x908810d9929980a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810020756g45faebb3x908810d9929980a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810020758y52e1f621p1164e7ebcdfed05a@mail.gmail.com> Soumya murder: Sheila in dock over 'adventurous' remarkAgencies *New Delhi, October 2:* Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit on Thursday came under attack from politicos and women activists for her comments on the murder of journalist Soumya Vishwanathan that 'one should not be adventurous.' Terming Dikshit's observation as unwarranted, women activists have said the Chief Minister should instead ensure safety of citizens, particularly those working late hours. "It is shocking to hear such a statement from the person who has a 'women-friendly image.' The murder of the girl in the late hours speaks volumes of the safety concerns of women," activist Ranjana Kumari said. Referring to Dikshit's comment made soon after the murder of Soumya, Ranjana Kumari questioned the extent of safety of a person on such desolate roads where there is no police presence. "If not the State then on whom will the people depend for their safety," she said. The Opposition BJP too lashed out at Dikshit saying the 'unwarranted' quotes by her were a manifestation of her insensitivity to the security of Delhi's citizens. "It proves her insensitivity towards the security of the people living in Delhi. Instead of airing such unwarranted statements she should rather concentrate on improving the security scenario in the capital." "Being a lady herself one expected her to be a bit more sober in commenting on the killing of a young working woman," party leader Vijay Kumar Malhotra said. "India is a free country and everybody is free to do whatever they want to do. If Soumya was an adventurous girl, it was her choice," Jai Panda, a Rajya Sabha member and Biju Janta Dal leader said. From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 20:34:03 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:04:03 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] A Glorious day for Democracy: Joseph Stiglitz References: Message-ID: <813968E0529A4BABB29A24C013D2889B@shabori> A sad day for Wall Street but it may be a glorious day for democracy, writes Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz. Now the U.S. Congress must draw up a plan in which the costs are borne by those who created the problem. Polluter pays: Wall Street has polluted the U.S. economy with toxic mortgages. It should now pay for the cleanup. What are we to make of the Congressional rejection of the Paulson proposal? The politics is simple: elections are a rare moment of accountability in our political process and all 435 members of the House of Representatives are up for re-election in a matter of weeks. The Bush administration has lost the confidence of the American people, and so has Wall Street. Those who created the problem are now the doctors offering the prescriptions. A little while ago, we were told everything was fine. Then, less than six months ago, we were told that the economy was on the mend. Now we are told the patient needs a massive transfusion, but everyone can see that the patient is suffering from internal bleeding; in California, the number of foreclosures may already be outpacing voluntary sales. Yet nothing is being done to stem the haemorrhaging. While the president says the economy faces the risk of economic meltdown, he threatens to veto a stimulus package which would create jobs - and he seems particularly adamant about a stimulus package that includes improved unemployment benefits. Traditionally, this is done when there is a threat of an economic downturn; if the downturn doesn't materialise, it doesn't cost anything. And while the administration and Wall Street promise this is just a temporary loan, not a bail-out, there was strong opposition to making the financial industry pay for any losses. Why would that be, if they are so sure that there won't be losses? The rescue bill left enormous discretion to an administration on the wane, an administration which has shown unparalleled incompetence, an administration which even tried to politicise the attorney general's office. Americans worry that there will be political favourites among the recipients of the hundreds of billions of dollars; that treasury secretary Hank Paulson seemed tough on Lehman but reversed course when his old firm Goldman Sachs was at risk is hardly reassuring. Corporate welfarism If the administration really thought the problems were as severe as claimed, shouldn't they have put forward a bill that was less outrageous? Did they really think that Americans would swallow giving them authority to spend $700b, without oversight or judicial review, in a bill of a few pages? Normally, if you think there is a crisis, you try to forge a compromise with those who see the world differently - workers who worry about the loss of jobs and homeowners who worry about the risk of foreclosure. Americans have lost faith not only in the administration, but in its economic philosophy: a new corporate welfarism masquerading behind free market ideology; another version of trickle-down economics, where hundreds of billions to Wall Street that caused the problem was supposed to somehow trickle down to help ordinary Americans. Trickle-down hasn't been working well in America over the past eight years. The very assumption that the rescue plan has to help is suspect. After all, the IMF and U.S. treasury bail-outs for Wall Street 10 years ago in Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, Brazil, Russia and Argentina didn't work for those countries, although it did enable Wall Street to get back most of its money. The taxpayers in these other poor countries picked up the tab for the financial markets' mistakes. This time, it is American taxpayers who are being asked to pick up the tab. And that's the difference. For all the rhetoric about democracy and good governance, the citizens in those countries didn't really get a chance to vote on the bail-outs. Had they, most would have suffered the same fortune as Paulson's. There is, in fact, a widespread consensus among economists about what should be done. The economy is weak and would remain so even with a good rescue plan. That is why there is a need for a strong stimulus. The February stimulus package was badly designed and its anaemic effects offset by soaring oil and food prices. Given the enormous increase in the deficit during the past seven years (from $5.7 billion to over $9 trillion - and that doesn't include the bills yet to be paid for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars) we have to be sure that we get the biggest bang for the buck. We need increased unemployment benefits and aid to states and localities, who otherwise will be forced to cut back on expenditures, depressing the economy further. We need more investment in both the public and private sectors. The fundamental problem with the financial system is that there have been large losses. Loans were made to people who couldn't repay. They were made on the basis of collateral whose value was inflated by a bubble. That bubble has burst and the collateral is now worth less than the loan. The experts believe real estate prices have still a way to fall. This is not a matter of market confidence. This is a matter of market reality. Paulson would have us believe otherwise, but the American people know better. The fact that he and Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke don't seem to grasp these realities undermines confidence that they know what they are doing. In environmental economics, there is a basic concept called the polluter pays principle. It is a matter of fairness, but also of efficiency. Wall Street has polluted our economy with toxic mortgages. It should now pay for the cleanup. What is so sad about this whole debacle is that is was predictable. Predicatable and avoidable. Perhaps Paulson and the administration believed that they could bamboozle Americans into doing whatever they asked. But Americans had been bamboozled before - into signing a blank cheque for the Iraq war. A sad day for Wall Street, but it may be a glorious day for democracy. Hopefully Congress will now devise a plan that is not based on trickle-down economics. A plan that identifies the real sources of the problem and does something about them - a real stimulus to the economy, a real programme to stem the flood of foreclosures and a transparent programme for filling the holes in bank balance sheets. A plan that assures U.S. taxpayers the costs will be borne by those who created the problem. Accountability means paying for the full consequences for one's actions - and the financial system has much to account for. - © Guardian Newspapers Limited, 2008 From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 20:38:51 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 20:38:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] these 2nd oct images Message-ID: <47e122a70810020808w72e9dbd5ka06d562268fd9823@mail.gmail.com> five or six images please click to see -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com love is From editor at intertheory.org Thu Oct 2 21:29:08 2008 From: editor at intertheory.org (Nicholas Ruiz III) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] love on -empyre- Message-ID: <101166.50168.qm@web302.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> October 2008, 'love' on -empyre- 'love' "Oh my friends, there is no friend..." Jacques Derrida, quoting Montaigne, quoting Aristotle...in his treatise on friendship. "There are no equals, only rivals..." Constantine in the BBC docudrama, 'Ancient Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire'...as he cultivated an empire of Christian love. "For nails would not have held God-and-Man fast to the Cross, had love not held Him there..." Saint Catherine of Siena One supposes in life that some things are possible. Love is one of these things, no? We presume such a thing is possible? But what if love were impossible? Our relationship with love, god (and the infinity of price and spectacle), is recently articulated in Damien Hirst’s 'For the Love of God' (2007), Platinum skull, 8,601 diamonds and human teeth,(17.1 x 12.7 x 19.1 cm). $100 million. A record: the highest price ever paid for the work of a living artist. One marvels that we can any longer, truly render Aquinas’ corporeal metaphors for spiritual things. As for love: some euphoria of the genetic Code and capitalizations as currencies of that Code? A molecular symphony of melancholy and bliss? As for God: Neurotransmissions? A battery of concepts, like 8,601 diamonds in the rough? All of which pale in comparison, perhaps, to what is wished for in the impossibility of love as the gift of some Other? So two things: god and love. Every major religion of the world syncopates these two concepts, paradoxically, via the utilization of conceptual infinity, and one concept’s weakness becomes the other concept’s strength: the horizon of god’s love is endless, and the horizon of one’s love for god, should be too. Yes, that is it: love is the purview of sacrifice. We must bleed for love. This is the claim of the disciple; the saint, and poet. But there are no saints any longer, and poetry is endangered, if not extinct. And the sacred, by definition, is always exterminated as a functional violence of the holy service. Is there no love, and instead, only relations of sacrifice? Join us in this thematic discussion and we shall see... http://www.subtle.net/empyre/ ============================================================== Co-moderated by Nicholas Ruiz III (US)...Daytona State College...America in Absentia (Intertheory, 2008)...Editor, Kritikos. with special guests Owen Ware (CA)...University of Toronto..."Love Speech" Critical Inquiry, v.34, no.3, (Spring 2008). Edgar Landgraf (US)...Bowling Green State University...Improvisation, Art and the Art of Living (forthcoming), "Romantic Love and the Enlightenment" German Quarterly, 77/1 (Winter 2004). Dr. Nicholas Ruiz III Associate Professor of Humanities School of Humanities and Communication Daytona State College Building 230, Room 101A Daytona Beach, FL 32120-2811 ************************************ Editor, Kritikos http://intertheory.org ************************************ Center for Interdisciplinary Writing and Research http://daytonastate.edu/ciwr ************************************ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 23:03:59 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:33:59 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] US: New York art market shows evidence of weakness Message-ID: Money shot (or quote): "The Damien Hirst sale went fine, but you could argue this sale was the exception and therefore can't be relied upon. I would imagine that people who have started buying art recently, many of whom work in financial companies, may pull out now."] Ain't it grand to be a aging tyro, a YBA forever. Hang on, let me see if I can find a bachur or gabhi in the Dhaka livestock market that I can dunk in mummy fat - N #################### Sign of things to come? New York art market shows evidence of weakness Global stocks crash; buying drops at auctions in US and fairs in Korea and France By Melanie Gerlis | From News | Posted: 2.10.08 LONDON. The Asia Week auctions in New York were the first to show a dramatic fall in revenue and buy-in rates since last year, suggesting that the art market can no longer withstand the pressure of the surrounding economic turmoil. In the same week, although nearly all lots sold at Damien Hirst's solo auction at Sotheby's in London (some of it to his art dealers), the Korea International Art Fair was hit by the financial backdrop and buying also dropped at the art and antiquities biennial in Paris. In the space of a few days in September, the investment bank Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy protection; the US's biggest insurance group, AIG, was rescued from collapse by the Federal Reserve; and financial corporations including Merrill Lynch and Halifax Bank of Scotland (the UK's largest lender) were pushed into acquisitions by their competitors. Market commentators were comparing the situation to the economic gloom of the Great Depression, which began in the US in 1929, and warning that it could be at least five years before stability returns. There are still those who profess to believe that there are markets that can continue to operate in isolation; auctioneers and dealers have been saying for months that buyers from growing economies such as China and Russia can make up for the likely retirement of western buyers. But news of Lehman Brothers' collapse didn't only see the Dow Jones fall 500-points: Asian stocks nosedived (the benchmark Shanghai Composite Index closed down 4.5% on 16 September), and on 17 September trading on Russia's main stock exchange—one of the best performing indexes in recent years—was suspended following sharp falls in share prices prompted by the news from Wall Street. "There will be a tightening of belts," says Philip Hoffman, founder of the UK's Fine Art Fund. Andreas Gegner, director at Sprüth Magers in London, says: "September's news was more dramatic than we've seen before and sent more alarming signals. The Damien Hirst sale went fine, but you could argue this sale was the exception and therefore can't be relied upon. I would imagine that people who have started buying art recently, many of whom work in financial companies, may pull out now." Historically there has been a loose correlation between the wider economy and the art market, which has taken around 18 months to react to financial downturns. It is now over a year since the sub-prime mortgage fiasco began to unwind. October's Frieze Art Fair and the following contemporary sales in London and New York will once again hope to defy economic gravity. From budhadityain at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 00:27:17 2008 From: budhadityain at yahoo.com (chattopadhyay budhaditya) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Listening to places Message-ID: <478993.19035.qm@web53701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi all, 'Listening to places' is a series of place-based soundscapes, incorporating field recordings, electro-acoustics and digital media.  The second album of this series is published recently: http://www.gruenrekorder.de/?page_id=301 "Budhaditya Chattopadhyay is drawing attention to the rapid social and geocultural transformation of his native India on his latest album. Landscape in Metamorphoses, a 26-minute collection of field recordings on German label Gruenrekorder, documents the stormy environmental changes taking place in Tumbani, 'one of the busiest industrial belts at the Bengal-Bihar border'. Recorded between February and April of last year with little more than a simple MD recorder and a binaural microphone, 'Landscape in Metamorphoses' aims at delivering both a vivid sonic snapshot and a strong political statement" --Tobias Fisher at Tokafi. Bests, Budhaditya Sound Practice www.myspace.com/budhaditya From rohitism at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 08:46:10 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:46:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? In-Reply-To: <48E0E549.9040800@gmail.com> References: <48E0E549.9040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: greenkrish Date: Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 7:55 PM Subject: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? To: youthforsocialchange at googlegroups.com * If you don't pass this e-mail to 10 or more people, you and your family may be in danger.* *(And unfortunately, it is true this time)* Genetically Modified (GM) food is created by taking genes from an organism like bacteria, spiders, frogs etc. and inserting them into the genome (gene sequence) of another unrelated organism like rice, wheat, brinjals etc. Studies with lab rats fed on GM, linked GM to adverse health results like stunted growth, impaired immune systems, bleeding stomach, liver and kidney lesions etc. In all likelihood, the first Genetically Modified (GM) food – Bt Brinjal will be introduced in the Indian market in the near future. If this message is not passed onto others and all of us do not raise a collective voice against GM food/crop, it is likely that we will end up as 'labrats' in this grand genetic experiment. Send a Petition to the Health Minister go to: www.iamnolabrat.com - -- in tune with nature greenjai - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 10:52:13 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? Message-ID: <749492.96075.qm@web31803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The website doesn't contain references to any peer-reviewed material on the ill-effects of Genetically Modified crops, and requests people to send a petition to the health minister on unsubstantiated claims. It's a dangerous trend. -- Ishwar From: greenkrish Date: Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 7:55 PM Subject: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? To: youthforsocialchange at googlegroups.com * If you don't pass this e-mail to 10 or more people, you and your family may be in danger.* *(And unfortunately, it is true this time)* Genetically Modified (GM) food is created by taking genes from an organism like bacteria, spiders, frogs etc. and inserting them into the genome (gene sequence) of another unrelated organism like rice, wheat, brinjals etc. Studies with lab rats fed on GM, linked GM to adverse health results like stunted growth, impaired immune systems, bleeding stomach, liver and kidney lesions etc. In all likelihood, the first Genetically Modified (GM) food – Bt Brinjal will be introduced in the Indian market in the near future. If this message is not passed onto others and all of us do not raise a collective voice against GM food/crop, it is likely that we will end up as 'labrats' in this grand genetic experiment. Send a Petition to the Health Minister go to: www.iamnolabrat.com - -- in tune with nature greenjai - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> DEFANGED.427> ----- Original Message ---- From: Rohit Shetti To: Greenyouth ; sarai list Sent: Friday, October 3, 2008 8:46:10 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 10:54:02 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When Rama took a break to offer namaz Message-ID: <865033.89500.qm@web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> When Rama took a break to offer namaz LUCKNOW: Masood Ahmad recalls the hush that fell when he went onstage to announce an unscheduled break during the raging battle between Lord Rama and Ravana, last Dussehra. The huge audience assembled at the Bakshi Ka Talaab ground was not amused. A few even began to boo, till the reason for the interruption was explained. The Ramlila cast — including Rama, Ravana and Lakshman — Ahmad explained, needed to offer namaz and break roza . Not a single protest was heard thereafter. The show resumed only after the actors rolled up their prayer mats post-namaz and shared the iftari snacks — right on stage. Masood Ahmad took over as manager of the BKT Ramlila Samiti from his father Muzaffar Hussain, who floated the outfit and also the concept of a mixed cast along with a Hindu friend in 1972. The move generated much curiosity and even a whisper campaign initially. But things have gradually settled down. The casting coup of the year, says Ahmad, is the new Lord Rama — gawky 15-year-old Mohammad Sher Khan from BKT Higher Secondary School. Khan, who’d been playing Bharat and Shatrughan for three years, is exultant about his elevation to lead status. ‘‘I have read Ramcharitmanas several times and particularly liked the ‘kirdar’ of Rama,” he declaims grandly. An unimpressed director, Sadiq Khan, exhorts the youngster, just back from school, to go over the script once more. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/When_Rama_took_a_break_ for_namaz/articleshow/3553853.cms From nuaiman at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 11:41:04 2008 From: nuaiman at gmail.com (NUAIMAN) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:41:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Of Christ and egg parathas Message-ID: <9c57aafc0810022311l6cd82e8fj893cad68c061ca6b@mail.gmail.com> Of Christ and Egg Parathas *Sailen Routray* If you are traveling from Bhubaneswar to Puri on national highway number 203, after you are nearly one-third of the way through, you'll pass through a small town that seems to be shrouded in appliqué work, and this craft is now its only claim to fame. The town's name is Pipili, and it was the capital of an important kingdom for a few years many centuries back. But those days are long past. In fact the day does not seem far when it will soon be reduced to being a mere suburb of the exploding twin cities of Bhubaneswar-Cuttack. But the town has an important place in my personal history. My youngest sister was born there, and my earliest memories of childhood go back to this place. I was wrong when I said that its appliqué work is its only claim to fame. It has an additional claim to infamy; it is one of the most 'communally' sensitive of all the assembly constituencies of Orissa. But my memories of the place are idyllic. Happily there was nothing like pre-school those days, and I learnt my alphabet from a woman we all used to call Guruma. She used to teach in batches of seven to eight children, and my earliest memories are of sitting in her lap, and repeatedly moving my chalk on the round Oriya letters drawn by her on the slate. These days organic learning is all the rage, and rote learning is passé, but I remember loving the feel of my fingers going round and round on the slate till the time my nails grazed it. She used to take fifteen rupees per month from all of us as tuition fees. But on looking back I think she must have made a 'loss' on me because on most months. She'll make me stay back after the lessons, and feed me goodies that must have cost her more than the measly tuition fees that my parents paid her. Once in a while she used to make a lovely egg paratha with the whole yolk staring at me like the setting sun from the center of a perfectly formed isosceles triangle. All the egg parathas I have had after we moved out of Pipili (my father had a transferable job) never quite come to the mark; nostalgia is after all the secret ingredient of most successful recipes. My mother of course was mad at me for eating at Guruma's place all the time. The fact that Guruma was a Christian had nothing to do with it. What really offended her was the mere fact that I ate regular meals at another home, as if it were beyond her ability to feed me adequately. Whereas on looking back I could easily give a 'communal' tinge to the incident, and offer an explanation that what really offended my mother was the fact that I was eating at a Christian household. But I know that it's not true. What I want to foreground here is how easy it is to over-read a certain social situation, behaviour, or phenomena, and give it a label which distorts its significance and occludes understanding. The recent, so-called, 'communal' violence in the Kandhamal district in Orissa is a case in point. Over the last few years the violence between the Kondhs and the Panas in the district has generated two parallel sets of narratives. These narratives have a certain consistency not merely in terms of their form and structure, but also in their geographical habitation. The first set of narratives is generated by local newspapers, other local media organisations and local academics, and seems to set forth the dictum that Orissa is a 'peaceful' (*santipurna*) state and Oriyas are a 'peace-loving' (*santi*-*priya*) people, and that the present run of 'communal' violence are an aberration. The second set of narratives generally resides outside the state, and is generated by the usual suspects of national media and human rights organisations, and academics based outside the state (some of them Oriya). This set of narratives sees Orissa as the 'next Gujarat,' and sees the recent violence in Kandhamal not as an aberration but as a symptom of a thorough communalization of Oriya Society, and a trailer of things to come. As is the case with most such dichotomies the truth is neither close to any of them nor is it even in the middle. The possibility of even starting to understand such violence in the state is available to us only when we cease asking the questions that lead to such dichotomous logjam. Such a dichotomy as observed in the case of Kandhamal and Orissa mirrors the broader rules of writing narratives generated at the national level around the issue of 'communalism.' The first set of narratives in this case is merely the inverse of the first set of the couple mentioned earlier. Instead of positing a 'history of peaceable coexistence' it posits a history of millennium long communal conflicts, especially between the 'Hindus' and the Muslims. The Muslim league in the pre-independence era was able to create Pakistan (albeit 'moth-eaten') by the successful deployment of such a set of narratives; the sangh parivar are the ideological progeny of the Muslim league in this regard as they also use the same set of narratives, albeit with a different political axe to grind. The second set of narratives of this dichotomy may be loosely defined as a left-liberal one that posits that communalism was essentially a result of cynical manipulation by powers that be (be it some Muslim rulers in times of political crisis or the British in the post-Sepoy Mutiny period) to enable a policy of divide and rule. Most left-leaning commentators allow for the presence of the 'communal virus' in Indian society over a longer period of history (since we all know "'religion' IS the opium of the masses"). Most of the commentators of a more 'liberal,' poco/pomo (post-colonial/post-modern) persuasion will tend to argue that 'communalism' (like other categories such as 'caste', and 'tribe') is a 'colonial invention.' But these two positions are not as divergent as they seem. They seem to agree that there exists such a phenomena called 'communalism' in India, that it is characterised by violence between the followers of different 'religions,' and that such violence has a 'history'. In fact they implicitly seem to argue that the historical mode of apprehension of social reality (as opposed to say fiction, or *vamsavalis*) is the only valid and effective one for apprehending such social phenomena. These descriptions are a bad fit especially in an area such as the Kandhamal district in central Orissa. At first sight the 'problem' is a straightforward one of 'communal' conflict. Over the last couple of decades there have been increasingly intense conflicts between the 'Hindu' Kondhs (classified as a scheduled tribe by the Government of India) and the Pana (an ex-untouchable *jati* group) Christians. As put forward by the dominant narratives surrounding the conflict, the last three to four decades have seen an increasing penetration of the district by the Hindutva brigade resulting in an increasing polarization between the 'religious' communities that takes the form of organised violence periodically. Let's see what this means in practical terms; such a narrative suggests that the Kondhs are a simple, gullible community that are amenable to manipulation by a few outsiders. Nothing can be further from the truth. They are one of the most resilient tribal groups of peninsular India, and rose again and again in revolt against British infractions on their traditional rights and privileges. They have been traditionally a dominant, landowning community in the Kandhamal district, and until a couple of generations back, had close patron-client relationships with the mostly landless Panas. In fact as the saying went those days – 'Kandha raja, Pana mantri', to translate - 'The Kondh is the king and the Pana is his minister'. The earliest colonial accounts in fact point at the structural closeness between the two communities, some officials in fact went so far as to record myths of origins of Panas that described them as the progeny of marriages between Kondh men and the women of other castes. In those days, the Kondhs and the Panas also seemed to share similar *devas*, rituals, and ceremonies, and it was not unusual for the Pana clients to attend the meetings of the Kondhs patrons, albeit as mere observers. The adoption of the pan-Indian deities by the Kondhs of Kandhamal is hardly a couple of generations old; in fact the first 'Hindu' temple in the district headquarters of Phulbani has been constructed within living memory. So has been the growth of Christianity in the area. The Kandhamal district has seen sustained missionary activity from the time the British extended their control over these highlands; Christianisation, like in many other colonial regions, was seen as a part of the process of pacification of these so-called wild tribes. It is an irony of history that it is the Panas that have been increasingly Christianised and not the Kondhs. In fact, over the last four decades or so, the so-called Hinduisation of the Kondhs in the district (spearheaded by the recently murdered VHP politician Laxamanananda) has been concurrent with the Christianisation of the Panas. Orissa has a really small Christian population; out of a population of over 36 million in 2001, less than a million are Christians. But nearly a seventh of the total population of Christians of the state live in the district of Kandhamal, and constitute around a fifth of its population. This Christanisation must have happened along with the loss of their traditions as a people. The effects of the so-called Hinduisation must have also been similar. The Panas and the Kondhs no longer seem to worship the same/similar *devas* and *devis*, they no longer practice similar rituals, and they no longer seem to share communal spaces. I have never set feet in the district. I have never done 'fieldwork' there; so my statements do not have the validity of ethnographic science. They do not even have the validity of reportage. I do not 'know' the reasons behind the violence in Kandhamal, nor do I have any clues about the ways out of these cycles of violence in Kandhamal and elsewhere in India. But one thing I am sure about; asking the wrong questions is the surest way of getting the wrong answers. And one of the ways of starting to ask the right questions is by looking at our own experiences unflinchingly, and by using these experiences to interrogate the narratives offered as explanations of our social realities. Some of the questions that one needs to ask in this context are: what is it that makes a conflict 'communal,' does such a thing called Hinduism exist and what does Hinduisation mean in practical terms, is there a way out from these cycles of violence, and lastly but not the least, how is the current state of affairs in terms of theorizing in Indian social science implicated in this violence. One of the earliest memories that constitute my 'personal present' is that of Guruma bent in prayer below a photograph of Christ on the Cross, and of me falling in love with him. I fast for Shiva on Mondays, chant the Hanuman Chalisa thrice a day, and sporadically practice vipassana; but a part of my heart still belongs to Christ as he is perhaps the only form of divinity that seems to have experienced and known real human suffering. And I know that he has enough mercy in his heart to forgive the likes of Laxamanananda and his followers as well as the proselytizing missionaries in Kandhamal, for quite a few of whom increasing the size of the flock seems to be a bigger and better challenge than making the peace of Christ a reality. (*Sailen Routray **is a research scholar at National Institute of Advance Studies, Bangalore. His research areas include *Sociology of development and environment in Orissa) From logos.theword at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 12:14:40 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (logos.theword at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:14:40 +0030 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33bc2ee60810022344n50027325p801e3f68a2d8d1fa@mail.gmail.com> Just a thought, sparked off by, funnily enough, a bollywood film called A Wednesday (a right- wing propaganda film only thinly disguised as secular narrative). It is not beyond belief that the police may shoot one of their own non-fatally to lend credibility to a fake encounter. Was the Delhi cop's death due to such an attempt gone wrong? -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 15:11:28 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:11:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! Message-ID: <6353c690810030241n6df797cfj7938c43843c63a42@mail.gmail.com> Forwarded Message by Achint Anand - Headlines Today ****************************************************************** All of you are aware of the tragic passing away of our colleague Soumya Viswanathan. A promising young Producer, Soumya was loved by her seniors and peers, and revered by her juniors. Soumya was murdered while driving back home from work after completing an unusually long shift at work, having stayed back to help with her channel Headlines Today's coverage of the blasts in Gujarat and Maharashtra on the 29th of September, 2008. She was killed by a bullet to her head in the wee hours of Tuesday, the 30th of September. We are waiting for the police to find the person (or people) who committed this dastardly act. We are waiting for answers, as we struggle to come to terms with our dear friend's unfair death. But while we wait, we want to help the investigation. We want to do what we can to do the only thing we can for Soumya – find the murderer, who is still walking free. To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the sort we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. This note is to invite you to join the campaign. This is to request you to lend your voice, lend whatever power you have, to help us in our campaign. Come. Bring your friends. Bring whoever you think can help us. VENUE: The Press Club of India, Raisina Road, New Delhi DATE: 4th October 2008 TIME: 1.00pm From, Friends of Soumya Viswanathan From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 18:09:44 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 05:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When Rama took a break to offer namaz Message-ID: <375015.11036.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, this is the real Indian society! We should spread such news items among the people who are busy in dividing the society and the country for their own narrow minded benefits.I remember about 35 years back in my village in eastern U.P. muslims used to participate actively in all Hindu festivals.They used to make patakhas for Diwali,idols of Godess Lakhmi and Lord Ganesh in Diwali, putla of Ravan,Meghnad and Kumbhkaran in Dushehra etc.etc...and this is real India ! Regards, Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Yousuf To: Indo Persian ; sarai list ; Peace Initiative Sent: Friday, 3 October, 2008 10:54:02 AM Subject: [Reader-list] When Rama took a break to offer namaz When Rama took a break to offer namaz LUCKNOW: Masood Ahmad recalls the hush that fell when he went onstage to announce an unscheduled break during the raging battle between Lord Rama and Ravana, last Dussehra. The huge audience assembled at the Bakshi Ka Talaab ground was not amused. A few even began to boo, till the reason for the interruption was explained. The Ramlila cast — including Rama, Ravana and Lakshman — Ahmad explained, needed to offer namaz and break roza . Not a single protest was heard thereafter. The show resumed only after the actors rolled up their prayer mats post-namaz and shared the iftari snacks — right on stage. Masood Ahmad took over as manager of the BKT Ramlila Samiti from his father Muzaffar Hussain, who floated the outfit and also the concept of a mixed cast along with a Hindu friend in 1972. The move generated much curiosity and even a whisper campaign initially. But things have gradually settled down. The casting coup of the year, says Ahmad, is the new Lord Rama — gawky 15-year-old Mohammad Sher Khan from BKT Higher Secondary School. Khan, who’d been playing Bharat and Shatrughan for three years, is exultant about his elevation to lead status. ‘‘I have read Ramcharitmanas several times and particularly liked the ‘kirdar’ of Rama,” he declaims grandly. An unimpressed director, Sadiq Khan, exhorts the youngster, just back from school, to go over the script once more. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/When_Rama_took_a_break_ for_namaz/articleshow/3553853.cms _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From shahzulf at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 19:21:32 2008 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 06:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sindh-Rajasthan COnference 2009 Message-ID: <172246.26268.qm@web38803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Shivam,   Thanks for your immediate response. We welcome you in Hyderabad for the coverage of this event. Please send us your details a mentioned in the email.   As Sindh and Rajasthan have historical cultural and geo-political interconnections and  the population of the both states share same past and historical roots. We want to revive these relations by encouraging people-to-people contact. This will also help Pakistan-India Peace Initiatives. I think, this is the proper time to interact through Monabau-Khokhrapar border.   I will also send you the concept and other details of the event.   Kind Regards,   Zulfiqar    Get your new Email address! Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/ From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Oct 3 21:51:05 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:51:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Media losing its credibility: Delhi Union of Journalists Message-ID: <9c06aab30810030921m9a93195s3960b11c95435cef@mail.gmail.com> Media losing its credibility: Delhi Union of Journalists October 3rd, 2008 - 9:38 pm ICT by IANS - New Delhi, Oct 3 (IANS) http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/media-losing-its-credibility-delhi-union-of-journalists_100103214.html Taking a hard look at media reports on the Jamia Nagar episode over the past few weeks, after two suspected terrorists and a Delhi Police Inspector were killed in a police shootout Sep 19, the Delhi Union of Journalists (DUJ) prepared an interim report which was released in the capital Friday.Pointing out discrepancies in various media over reporting of facts, S.K.Pande, president of DUJ said that in what can be seen as a growing trend - albeit a dangerous one, verification of facts is quite often overlooked by reporters these days. "To state an example, the Times of India said that there were 25 firing rounds by the police and eight by the 'terrorists'. The Indian Express, the Hindu, Dainik Hindustan, Punjab Kesari and Rashtriya Sahara say that the police fired 22 rounds. They were all silent about the rounds fired by the suspects," Pande said. "Whether it's the time of the shootout, the duration, the number of policemen present at that time or the number of bullets that hit Police Inspector M.C. Sharma - different media have different versions. At least in the initial reportage, the source of the information was the same, the police. Then why the difference? " he asked. Agreeing with Pande, veteran journalist Kuldip Nayar said that because of instances such as these the 'media is losing its credibility'. The interim report, which will be followed by a more detailed one later, was a result of intense discussion among 15 members of the DUJ and its Ethics Council, scanning of the various media - both print and electronic, and visits to the Jamia Nagar area by three members who spoke to the residents of the area. "The purpose of this report is not to pass a judgement on the shootout, whether it was a fake one or not. The aim was to analyse the role of the media in handling such serious issues. In the age of fast news and 24/7 news channels, unfortunately we sometimes resort to hyping of news," Pande said. The report said: 'The Hindustan Times, for instance, Sep 20 ran a story 'India's Bin Laden was a good boy in school' on alleged terrorist Abdus Subhan Qureshi. The story did not warrant that headline'. 'By and large, the press has forsaken the use of such prefixes like alleged and suspected in front of names of those who have been arrested and killed. Television reports have been even more blatant with such words simply missing from the language used by reporters and anchors'. The report also had words of praise for certain media like the Veer Arjun which on Sep 20 gave a detailed description of the operation that is at variance with the versions in the other papers. DUJ now plans to send the report to the National Commission of Protection of Child Rights (NCPCR), among others. "There were four-five children, all between the age of 10-17 who were picked up for questioning by the Police. One of the boys killed in the shoot out was 17 and branded as a terrorist in most papers even before any proof could be established against them. Are the NCPCR looking into the matter? We are going to send this report to the NCPCR and see what their reaction is," Pande said. From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 21:56:25 2008 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:26:25 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Army Removes Buddha Statue in CHT Message-ID: chtnews.com News No. 154/2008, October 02, 2008 Army personnel have removed the statues of the Lord Buddha form the Bhujulichuk meditation centre, situated on a remote hilltop in Lakshmichari under Khagrachari district, sources from Lakshmichari said. A member of Lakshmichari Union Parishad told chtnews.com on condition of anonymity that on 23 September a group of 20 - 22 Bangladesh Army soldiers led by Captain Islam, commander of Shuknachari Indra Singh Karbari Para camp, went to the meditation centre at Bhujulichuk hill. They took two villagers -- Sunil Chakma and Bhejallya Chakma of Shuknachari village -- along with them. "The soldiers passed the night there, and came back the next morning, taking four statues of the Lord Buddha with them." the UP member said and added that they did not know where the statues had been kept. He further said the army men at first asked Sunil and Bhejallya to carry the statues, but they refused saying they could not touch them (Buddha statues) without the permission of the Buddhist monks. No Buddhist monks or novices were present when Buddha statues were being stolen. Until 31 December 2007, when a group of army personnel from the same camp destroyed the Bhujulichuk Meditation centre for the third time, two fully ordained monks and a novice used to live there. (See Hill Watch Human Rights Forum report No. 3 titled "Army ransacks Buddhist temple in Lakshmichari") However, because of persistent harassment and pressure from the army they eventually had to leave the place, leaving the Buddha statues behind for the nearby villagers to take care of. During another attack on 21 December last year, Captain Shohel declared: "we will not tolerate any 'Buddha house' here; we will build 'Allah's house'." Ms Rina, an activist of the Hill Watch Human Rights Forum, told chtnews.com that they had verified the allegation and found it to be true. She said religious persecution and other forms of human rights abuses in the Chittagong Hill Tracts had increased dramatically since the state of emergency was imposed in the country. .............................. chtnews.com is an independent and voluntary online news service dedicated to projecting and analyzing the current events in the Chittagong Hill Tracts from the perspective of the Jumma people's struggle for the right to self-determination. For further information please contact at: chtnewsonline at gmail.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 22:05:13 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:05:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 13 terrorists killed in Kashmir five-day long fierce Message-ID: <6353c690810030935u29f32a70wfa6f8345799d594e@mail.gmail.com> 13 terrorists killed in Kashmir five-day long fierce October 3rd, 2008 - 8:31 pm ICT by ANI - Kangan/Srinagar, Oct 3 (ANI): In one of the longest gunfights in recent times, Indian army gunned down all thirteen militants in a fierce five-day encounter in Kangan area of Jammu and Kashmir . Acting on a tip-off, the army decided to take on the militants who were hiding in the hilly terrain of Chhamarsar area, between Bandipore and Kangan regions of the valley. The encounter, which began late night on September 27 and ended on October 01, took place at an altitude of 15, 000 feet. The militants were holed up inside a cave in the mountains. >From September 27, it ended on October 1. During this period we landed few more additional troops who linked up with the troops in the area, and the end result was that we were able to neutralise all 13 militants in the area. We have as on today, recovered 11 bodies, and part two of the operation, to recover two more bodies, which have been buried in the debris of the cave which have collapsed is on and I am sure, we will be able to recover these bodies, said VSS Gaudar, General Officer Commanding (GOC) of the Kilo Force. Eleven AK-47/56 rifles, 27 magazines, 287 rounds of ammunition and two satellite phones have been recovered from the slain terrorists. Though the identity of the militants is uncertain, the army denied the possibility of them belonging to any new group. We are not sure about the identity of these militants but according to us, they are not from any new group. All these people belong to some old group, which had gathered together and was going towards some other place, maybe to Kangan or towards south Kashmir . This operation took place between Bandipore and Kangan, Gaudar added. One soldier was also killed during the encounter. (ANI) From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 22:06:17 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 22:06:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3457ce860810030936m10dc5d9eoac526439240b9b7@mail.gmail.com> On 10/3/08, reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? (Rohit Shetti) > 2. Re: Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? (Ishwar) > 3. When Rama took a break to offer namaz (Yousuf) > 4. Of Christ and egg parathas (NUAIMAN) > 5. Re: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8 (logos.theword at gmail.com) > 6. Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! (Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:46:10 +0530 > From: "Rohit Shetti" > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? > To: Greenyouth , "sarai list" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: greenkrish > Date: Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 7:55 PM > Subject: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? > To: youthforsocialchange at googlegroups.com > > > > > > * > If you don't pass this e-mail to 10 or more people, you and your family may > be in danger.* > > *(And unfortunately, it is true this time)* > > Genetically Modified (GM) food is created by taking genes from an organism > like bacteria, spiders, frogs etc. and inserting them into the genome (gene > sequence) of another unrelated organism like rice, wheat, brinjals etc. > Studies with lab rats fed on GM, linked GM to adverse health results like > stunted growth, impaired immune systems, bleeding stomach, liver and kidney > lesions etc. > > In all likelihood, the first Genetically Modified (GM) food – Bt Brinjal > will be introduced in the Indian market in the near future. > > If this message is not passed onto others and all of us do not raise a > collective voice against GM food/crop, it is likely that we will end up as > 'labrats' in this grand genetic experiment. > Send a Petition to the Health Minister > go to: www.iamnolabrat.com > > - -- > in tune with nature > greenjai > > > - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:22:13 -0700 (PDT) > From: Ishwar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? > To: Rohit Shetti , Greenyouth > , sarai list > Message-ID: <749492.96075.qm at web31803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > The website doesn't contain references to any peer-reviewed material on the ill-effects of Genetically Modified crops, and requests people to send a petition to the health minister on unsubstantiated claims. It's a dangerous trend. > > > -- > Ishwar > > > > > > > > From: greenkrish > Date: Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 7:55 PM > Subject: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? > To: youthforsocialchange at googlegroups.com > > > > > > * > If you don't pass this e-mail to 10 or more people, you and your family may > be in danger.* > > *(And unfortunately, it is true this time)* > > Genetically Modified (GM) food is created by taking genes from an organism > like bacteria, spiders, frogs etc. and inserting them into the genome (gene > sequence) of another unrelated organism like rice, wheat, brinjals etc. > Studies with lab rats fed on GM, linked GM to adverse health results like > stunted growth, impaired immune systems, bleeding stomach, liver and kidney > lesions etc. > > In all likelihood, the first Genetically Modified (GM) food – Bt Brinjal > will be introduced in the Indian market in the near future. > > If this message is not passed onto others and all of us do not raise a > collective voice against GM food/crop, it is likely that we will end up as > 'labrats' in this grand genetic experiment. > Send a Petition to the Health Minister > go to: www.iamnolabrat.com > > - -- > in tune with nature > greenjai > > > - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > DEFANGED.427> > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Rohit Shetti > To: Greenyouth ; sarai list > Sent: Friday, October 3, 2008 8:46:10 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [YSC] are you a lab rat ? > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:24:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Yousuf > Subject: [Reader-list] When Rama took a break to offer namaz > To: Indo Persian , sarai list > , Peace Initiative > > Message-ID: <865033.89500.qm at web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > When Rama took a break to offer namaz > > LUCKNOW: Masood Ahmad recalls the hush that fell when he went onstage to announce an unscheduled break during the raging battle between Lord Rama > and Ravana, last Dussehra. The huge audience assembled at the Bakshi Ka Talaab ground was not amused. A few even began to boo, till the reason for the interruption was explained. > > The Ramlila cast — including Rama, Ravana and Lakshman — Ahmad explained, needed to offer namaz and break roza . Not a single protest was heard thereafter. The show resumed only after the actors rolled up their prayer mats post-namaz and shared the iftari snacks — right on stage. > > Masood Ahmad took over as manager of the BKT Ramlila Samiti from his father Muzaffar Hussain, who floated the outfit and also the concept of a mixed cast along with a Hindu friend in 1972. The move generated much curiosity and even a whisper campaign initially. But things have gradually settled down. > > The casting coup of the year, says Ahmad, is the new Lord Rama — gawky 15-year-old Mohammad Sher Khan from BKT Higher Secondary School. > > Khan, who'd been playing Bharat and Shatrughan for three years, is exultant about his elevation to lead status. ''I have read Ramcharitmanas several times and particularly liked the 'kirdar' of Rama," he declaims grandly. An unimpressed director, Sadiq Khan, exhorts the youngster, just back from school, to go over the script once more. > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/When_Rama_took_a_break_ for_namaz/articleshow/3553853.cms > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:41:04 +0530 > From: NUAIMAN > Subject: [Reader-list] Of Christ and egg parathas > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <9c57aafc0810022311l6cd82e8fj893cad68c061ca6b at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Of Christ and Egg Parathas > > > > *Sailen Routray* > > > > > > If you are traveling from Bhubaneswar to Puri on national highway number > 203, after you are nearly one-third of the way through, you'll pass through > a small town that seems to be shrouded in appliqué work, and this craft is > now its only claim to fame. The town's name is Pipili, and it was the > capital of an important kingdom for a few years many centuries back. But > those days are long past. In fact the day does not seem far when it will > soon be reduced to being a mere suburb of the exploding twin cities of > Bhubaneswar-Cuttack. But the town has an important place in my personal > history. My youngest sister was born there, and my earliest memories of > childhood go back to this place. > > I was wrong when I said that its appliqué work is its only claim > to fame. It has an additional claim to infamy; it is one of the most > 'communally' sensitive of all the assembly constituencies of Orissa. But my > memories of the place are idyllic. Happily there was nothing like pre-school > those days, and I learnt my alphabet from a woman we all used to call > Guruma. She used to teach in batches of seven to eight children, and my > earliest memories are of sitting in her lap, and repeatedly moving my chalk > on the round Oriya letters drawn by her on the slate. These days organic > learning is all the rage, and rote learning is passé, but I remember loving > the feel of my fingers going round and round on the slate till the time my > nails grazed it. > > She used to take fifteen rupees per month from all of us as tuition fees. > But on looking back I think she must have made a 'loss' on me because on > most months. She'll make me stay back after the lessons, and feed me goodies > that must have cost her more than the measly tuition fees that my parents > paid her. Once in a while she used to make a lovely egg paratha with the > whole yolk staring at me like the setting sun from the center of a perfectly > formed isosceles triangle. All the egg parathas I have had after we moved > out of Pipili (my father had a transferable job) never quite come to the > mark; nostalgia is after all the secret ingredient of most successful > recipes. > > My mother of course was mad at me for eating at Guruma's place all the time. > The fact that Guruma was a Christian had nothing to do with it. What really > offended her was the mere fact that I ate regular meals at another home, as > if it were beyond her ability to feed me adequately. Whereas on looking back > I could easily give a 'communal' tinge to the incident, and offer an > explanation that what really offended my mother was the fact that I was > eating at a Christian household. But I know that it's not true. What I want > to foreground here is how easy it is to over-read a certain social > situation, behaviour, or phenomena, and give it a label which distorts its > significance and occludes understanding. > > The recent, so-called, 'communal' violence in the Kandhamal district in > Orissa is a case in point. Over the last few years the violence between the > Kondhs and the Panas in the district has generated two parallel sets of > narratives. These narratives have a certain consistency not merely in terms > of their form and structure, but also in their geographical habitation. The > first set of narratives is generated by local newspapers, other local media > organisations and local academics, and seems to set forth the dictum that > Orissa is a 'peaceful' (*santipurna*) state and Oriyas are a 'peace-loving' > (*santi*-*priya*) people, and that the present run of 'communal' violence > are an aberration. > > The second set of narratives generally resides outside the state, and is > generated by the usual suspects of national media and human rights > organisations, and academics based outside the state (some of them Oriya). > This set of narratives sees Orissa as the 'next Gujarat,' and sees the > recent violence in Kandhamal not as an aberration but as a symptom of a > thorough communalization of Oriya Society, and a trailer of things to come. > As is the case with most such dichotomies the truth is neither close to any > of them nor is it even in the middle. The possibility of even starting to > understand such violence in the state is available to us only when we cease > asking the questions that lead to such dichotomous logjam. > > Such a dichotomy as observed in the case of Kandhamal and Orissa mirrors the > broader rules of writing narratives generated at the national level around > the issue of 'communalism.' The first set of narratives in this case is > merely the inverse of the first set of the couple mentioned earlier. Instead > of positing a 'history of peaceable coexistence' it posits a history of > millennium long communal conflicts, especially between the 'Hindus' and the > Muslims. The Muslim league in the pre-independence era was able to create > Pakistan (albeit 'moth-eaten') by the successful deployment of such a set of > narratives; the sangh parivar are the ideological progeny of the Muslim > league in this regard as they also use the same set of narratives, albeit > with a different political axe to grind. > > The second set of narratives of this dichotomy may be loosely defined as a > left-liberal one that posits that communalism was essentially a result of > cynical manipulation by powers that be (be it some Muslim rulers in times of > political crisis or the British in the post-Sepoy Mutiny period) to enable a > policy of divide and rule. Most left-leaning commentators allow for the > presence of the 'communal virus' in Indian society over a longer period of > history (since we all know "'religion' IS the opium of the masses"). Most of > the commentators of a more 'liberal,' poco/pomo (post-colonial/post-modern) > persuasion will tend to argue that 'communalism' (like other categories such > as 'caste', and 'tribe') is a 'colonial invention.' > > But these two positions are not as divergent as they seem. They > seem to agree that there exists such a phenomena called 'communalism' in > India, that it is characterised by violence between the followers of > different 'religions,' and that such violence has a 'history'. In fact they > implicitly seem to argue that the historical mode of apprehension of social > reality (as opposed to say fiction, or *vamsavalis*) is the only valid and > effective one for apprehending such social phenomena. > > These descriptions are a bad fit especially in an area such as > the Kandhamal district in central Orissa. At first sight the 'problem' is a > straightforward one of 'communal' conflict. Over the last couple of decades > there have been increasingly intense conflicts between the 'Hindu' Kondhs > (classified as a scheduled tribe by the Government of India) and the Pana > (an ex-untouchable *jati* group) Christians. As put forward by the dominant > narratives surrounding the conflict, the last three to four decades have > seen an increasing penetration of the district by the Hindutva brigade > resulting in an increasing polarization between the 'religious' communities > that takes the form of organised violence periodically. > > Let's see what this means in practical terms; such a narrative > suggests that the Kondhs are a simple, gullible community that are amenable > to manipulation by a few outsiders. Nothing can be further from the truth. > They are one of the most resilient tribal groups of peninsular India, and > rose again and again in revolt against British infractions on their > traditional rights and privileges. They have been traditionally a dominant, > landowning community in the Kandhamal district, and until a couple of > generations back, had close patron-client relationships with the mostly > landless Panas. In fact as the saying went those days – 'Kandha raja, Pana > mantri', to translate - 'The Kondh is the king and the Pana is his > minister'. The earliest colonial accounts in fact point at the structural > closeness between the two communities, some officials in fact went so far as > to record myths of origins of Panas that described them as the progeny of > marriages between Kondh men and the women of other castes. In those days, > the Kondhs and the Panas also seemed to share similar *devas*, rituals, and > ceremonies, and it was not unusual for the Pana clients to attend the > meetings of the Kondhs patrons, albeit as mere observers. > > The adoption of the pan-Indian deities by the Kondhs of > Kandhamal is hardly a couple of generations old; in fact the first 'Hindu' > temple in the district headquarters of Phulbani has been constructed within > living memory. So has been the growth of Christianity in the area. The > Kandhamal district has seen sustained missionary activity from the time the > British extended their control over these highlands; Christianisation, like > in many other colonial regions, was seen as a part of the process of > pacification of these so-called wild tribes. It is an irony of history that > it is the Panas that have been increasingly Christianised and not the > Kondhs. In fact, over the last four decades or so, the so-called > Hinduisation of the Kondhs in the district (spearheaded by the recently > murdered VHP politician Laxamanananda) has been concurrent with the > Christianisation of the Panas. > > Orissa has a really small Christian population; out of a population of over > 36 million in 2001, less than a million are Christians. But nearly a seventh > of the total population of Christians of the state live in the district of > Kandhamal, and constitute around a fifth of its population. This > Christanisation must have happened along with the loss of their traditions > as a people. The effects of the so-called Hinduisation must have also been > similar. The Panas and the Kondhs no longer seem to worship the same/similar > *devas* and *devis*, they no longer practice similar rituals, and they no > longer seem to share communal spaces. > > I have never set feet in the district. I have never done > 'fieldwork' there; so my statements do not have the validity of ethnographic > science. They do not even have the validity of reportage. I do not 'know' > the reasons behind the violence in Kandhamal, nor do I have any clues about > the ways out of these cycles of violence in Kandhamal and elsewhere in > India. But one thing I am sure about; asking the wrong questions is the > surest way of getting the wrong answers. And one of the ways of starting to > ask the right questions is by looking at our own experiences unflinchingly, > and by using these experiences to interrogate the narratives offered as > explanations of our social realities. Some of the questions that one needs > to ask in this context are: what is it that makes a conflict 'communal,' > does such a thing called Hinduism exist and what does Hinduisation mean in > practical terms, is there a way out from these cycles of violence, and > lastly but not the least, how is the current state of affairs in terms of > theorizing in Indian social science implicated in this violence. > > One of the earliest memories that constitute my 'personal > present' is that of Guruma bent in prayer below a photograph of Christ on > the Cross, and of me falling in love with him. I fast for Shiva on Mondays, > chant the Hanuman Chalisa thrice a day, and sporadically practice vipassana; > but a part of my heart still belongs to Christ as he is perhaps the only > form of divinity that seems to have experienced and known real human > suffering. And I know that he has enough mercy in his heart to forgive the > likes of Laxamanananda and his followers as well as the proselytizing > missionaries in Kandhamal, for quite a few of whom increasing the size of > the flock seems to be a bigger and better challenge than making the peace of > Christ a reality. > > > > > > (*Sailen Routray **is a research scholar at National Institute of Advance > Studies, Bangalore. His research areas include *Sociology of development and > environment in Orissa) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:14:40 +0030 > From: logos.theword at gmail.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 8 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > <33bc2ee60810022344n50027325p801e3f68a2d8d1fa at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Just a thought, sparked off by, funnily enough, a bollywood film > called A Wednesday (a right- wing propaganda film only thinly > disguised as secular narrative). It is not beyond belief that the > police may shoot one of their own non-fatally to lend credibility to a > fake encounter. Was the Delhi cop's death due to such an attempt gone > wrong? > > -- > Logos Theatre > In the beginning was the word > No. 126, > 3rd Main Road, > Jayamahal Extension, > Bangalore 560046 > -------------------------------------------------------- > If it be now, 'tis not to come; > if it be not to come, it will be now; > if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. > Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? > Let be. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 15:11:28 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! > To: "sarai list" > Message-ID: > <6353c690810030241n6df797cfj7938c43843c63a42 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Forwarded Message by Achint Anand - Headlines Today > > ****************************************************************** > > All of you are aware of the tragic passing away of our colleague Soumya > Viswanathan. > > A promising young Producer, Soumya was loved by her seniors and peers, and > revered by her juniors. Soumya was murdered while driving back home from > work after completing an unusually long shift at work, having stayed back to > help with her channel Headlines Today's coverage of the blasts in Gujarat > and Maharashtra on the 29th of September, 2008. > > She was killed by a bullet to her head in the wee hours of Tuesday, the 30th > of September. > > Weare waiting for the police to find the person (or people) who committed > this dastardly act. We are waiting for answers, as we struggle to come to > terms with our dear friend's unfair death. > > But while we wait, we want to help the investigation. We want to do what we > can to do the only thing we can for Soumya – find the murderer, who is still > walking free. > > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the sort > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > This note is to invite you to join the campaign. This is to request you to > lend your voice, lend whatever power you have, to help us in our campaign. > > Come. Bring your friends. Bring whoever you think can help us. > > VENUE: The Press Club of India, Raisina Road, New Delhi > DATE: 4th October 2008 > TIME: 1.00pm > > From, > > Friends of Soumya Viswanathan > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 11 > ******************************************* > From pankhuree at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 23:32:03 2008 From: pankhuree at hotmail.com (pankhuree dube) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 18:02:03 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Sindh-Rajasthan Conference 2009 In-Reply-To: <6617.54238.qm@web38808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6617.54238.qm@web38808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sir, Just curious to know why--under passport details--Father's/Husband's Name is required. Is Wife/Mother's Name required too? Pankhuree Dube> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:28:19 -0700> From: shahzulf at yahoo.com> To: sindhorg at yahoogroups.com; sindhmedia at yahoogroups.com; reader-list at sarai.net; educatesindh at googlegroups.com> Subject: [Reader-list] Sindh-Rajasthan Conference 2009> > Dear All,> > The Forum for Peace and Harmony is going to organize a three days Sindh-Rajasthan Conference on January 10-12, 2009 in Hyderabad, Sindh, Pakistan. The conference will cover following themes and several activities will be organized under them: > > Peace Initiatives > Art & Literature > Culture > Journalism > Parliamentarians> Migrated people > Divided Communities / Border Communities> Dalits > Agriculture > Women > Youth > Social Movements > Children Issues > Pilgrimages / Sacred Place of Sindh Rajasthan > Labor Movements > Trade & Commerce> > > The friends in India are requested to send the passport details of the participants from Rajasthan till October 15, 2008 on following email addresses:> > India(Rajasthan): Mr. Hindu Singh Sodho: hssodgha at gmail.com> Pakistan: Zulfiqar Shah: shahzulf at yahoo.com > > The passport details required are: > > Name: > Father’s / Husband’s Name: > Passport No:> Date of Issue: > Date of Expiry: > Place of Issue:> Date of Birth: > Address: > Profession: > > If any of the friends / organization in India, Pakistan and elsewhere wants to organize any activity in the conference under the above themes, please write to the conference coordinator no later than November 15, 2008. > > Please feel free to give any suggestion or hold query. > > Kind Regards,> > Zulfiqar Shah> Conference Coordinator > Sindh-Rajasthan Conference > Cell: +92 321 3087024 > > > Get your new Email address!> Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!> http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sat Oct 4 05:21:54 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:51:54 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. Message-ID: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Although I hate going through all those cut and paste jobs. But I guess now that I want to share an essay with you all, I perhaps understand this urge to just cut, paste and let roll. Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in turn results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read just two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that reader who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up networking, networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and that elusive tenure! I loved this essay for its irreverence! Hope you will enjoy it as much. Warm regards Nazo The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of formatting issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php ****************************** http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic fads [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on the arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, but things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these so-called theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, and to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of the rise and fall of these fashions. I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an article or review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than journals). This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the true believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one believes it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will have less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because most JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible even as of 2002. Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of articles with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles that JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the data on total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge change in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- then we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp our view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles being written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the same -- a sustained decline must be real. Some thoughts: First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's hard to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in 2002, although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems to be only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a down-turn. Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to fall from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time frame saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s an academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long it had been festering there. If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model for the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an exogenous shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that had begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at the same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population densities, where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we wandered onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued us for much longer than others. Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of noise, or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the vicissitudes of politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made an impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory Tower for nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting the growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the Berlin Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its explosion during the 1960s and '70s. Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in the 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion others that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due to chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant at the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is wrong. Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough that if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra the view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, though, we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of the classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all that matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers since the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower rate in 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even then its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of depressing for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some point, the fuckers will get theirs. Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in a literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you can't pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as such -- high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in grad school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime soon. Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and social sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize that you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles -- or have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you wouldn't be able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll students in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among current students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should compare arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure they rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just like today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in reality, they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are opting for greener pastures. Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young people today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If they begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is still very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of cooling off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a less strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to latch on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, this makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 at the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among safe cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in for Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point (even if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't even born when Marxism had already started to die. It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative years of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the mid-late '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out from 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize with people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby Boomer peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since their young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human evolution -- they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was eager to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race after all. What a loser. * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before then (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sat Oct 4 05:25:06 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:55:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. Message-ID: <169ff67c0810031655h28a962d1h566f91b8d00ce427@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Although I hate going through all those cut and paste jobs. But I guess now that I want to share an essay with you all, I perhaps understand this urge to just cut, paste and let roll. Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in turn results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read just two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that reader who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up networking, networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and that elusive tenure! I loved this essay for its irreverence! Hope you will enjoy it as much. Warm regards Nazo The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of formatting issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php ****************************** http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic fads [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on the arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, but things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these so-called theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, and to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of the rise and fall of these fashions. I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an article or review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than journals). This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the true believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one believes it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will have less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because most JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible even as of 2002. Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of articles with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles that JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the data on total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge change in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- then we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp our view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles being written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the same -- a sustained decline must be real. Some thoughts: First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's hard to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in 2002, although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems to be only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a down-turn. Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to fall from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time frame saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s an academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long it had been festering there. If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model for the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an exogenous shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that had begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at the same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population densities, where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we wandered onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued us for much longer than others. Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of noise, or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the vicissitudes of politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made an impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory Tower for nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting the growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the Berlin Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its explosion during the 1960s and '70s. Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in the 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion others that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due to chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant at the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is wrong. Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough that if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra the view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, though, we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of the classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all that matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers since the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower rate in 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even then its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of depressing for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some point, the fuckers will get theirs. Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in a literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you can't pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as such -- high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in grad school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime soon. Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and social sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize that you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles -- or have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you wouldn't be able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll students in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among current students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should compare arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure they rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just like today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in reality, they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are opting for greener pastures. Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young people today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If they begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is still very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of cooling off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a less strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to latch on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, this makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 at the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among safe cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in for Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point (even if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't even born when Marxism had already started to die. It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative years of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the mid-late '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out from 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize with people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby Boomer peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since their young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human evolution -- they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was eager to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race after all. What a loser. * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before then (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. From kaksanjay at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 07:50:36 2008 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 07:50:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Top Cop Grilled! In-Reply-To: <52d5781f0810031916i4c6a29dfw4af2003887708193@mail.gmail.com> References: <52d5781f0810031915p20a00bf9qffe43f9e4201f491@mail.gmail.com> <52d5781f0810031916i4c6a29dfw4af2003887708193@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c5369880810031920v4773638u4137e6e0fdb1eba@mail.gmail.com> Am posting an account of what sounds like a productive afternoon: do take a look at the pictures and videos too Sanjay Kak Chief of Police of Indian State under Fire for Human Rights Record at Berkeley Conference Please forward widely: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddp3w2ff_32hcwr52gj "Arresting Film-maker May Have Been a Mistake": Vishwa Ranjan DGP of Chhattisgarh faces roomful of protestors For a change, it was the turn of Vishwa Ranjan, the high profile DGP (Director General of Police) of the Indian State of Chhattisgarh, to be interrogated. Questioning the DGP about the massive human rights abuses perpetrated by the police under his direction were students, faculty and members from a coalition of South Asian community groups at a conference on Indian Democracy at Berkeley, California, where he was one of the invited speakers. And some of the 'confessions' that emerged from him were startling. The arrest of film maker Ajay T.G., Vishwa Ranjan said, was a 'technical mistake'. The continued incarceration of Dr Binayak Sen in Raipur jail was the responsibility of the Chhattisgarh government and not the police. Apparently, the chief police official of Chhattisgarh is so unused to questioning that he became flustered and signed a post-card to the Prime Minister asking for Dr Sen's release! The card he signed reads 'The imprisonment of this brave and good man is outrageous. I demand his immediate unconditional release.' Read on for a full account of the conference... Videos, Photographs available below The FDRI/Berkeley Conference on Indian Democracy held at the University of California, Berkeley, on September 26 and 27, 2008, had a 2-hour session on the human rights situation in the Indian state of Chhattisgarh. The panel consisted of Justice Srikrishna (former Justice of the Indian Supreme Court), Vishwa Ranjan (DGP of Chhattisgarh), Nandini Sundar (Professor of Sociology, University of Delhi), Sunil Kumar (Editor, Daily Chhattisgarh) and Dipti Bhatnagar (Students for Justice in Chhattisgarh). Free Binayak Sen postcard signed by DGP Vishwa Ranjan Chhattisgarh is the site of an ongoing conflict between Naxalites (Maoist insurgents) and state security forces, including the state-backed "Salwa Judum" vigilante army. Counterinsurgency programs have displaced over 300,000 tribals from their villages. The state security forces, including the Salwa Judum, have been implicated in many instances of extrajudicial killings, rapes, extortion, torture and theft from adivasis, the main inhabitants of the mineral rich southern part of the state. Human rights activists who have criticized state actions, journalists reporting on state atrocities, and tribals resisting forced dislocation have been aribitrarily detained, harassed and/or imprisoned under the draconian Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act of 2005, and accused of working for the Naxalites. Dr. Binayak Sen, an acclaimed human rights activist and development worker, has been imprisoned in Raipur jail since May 2007, despite calls for his release from Nobel Laureates, Amnesty International, national and international organizations of physicians, and thousands of individuals from around the world. Ajay T.G., who made a film about the circumstances surrounding Dr. Sen's arrest, was himself arrested by Chhattisgarh police in May this year, but had to be released after 93 days in jail because the police were unable to produce a charge-sheet (final police report). Almost five months after his arrest, although out on statutory bail, the charges against Ajay have neither been filed, nor dropped. The Panel Panelists The first speaker at the panel was Justice BN Srikrishna. He forcefully pointed out that there was no role for vigilante armies in a democracy, and who was or was not a Naxalite or what punishment should be meted out to a Naxalite, are questions that only a court of law can decide, not private citizens. Next, DGP Vishwa Ranjan defended the Salwa Judum's "peaceful," "spontaneous," nature, despite widely available evidence to the contrary, including a recent report by Human Rights Watch enumerating numerous violent abuses by the militia. Nandini Sundar challenged the DGP's description of Salwa Judum. She traced the collusion of the state in supporting and arming the Salwa Judum, and detailed some cases from the widespread murder, rape, arson, and theft committed by Salwa Judum. She also talked about the increase in Naxalite violence in the past three years. However, Sunil Kumar alleged in his presentation that human rights activists only speak out against violence by the state and disregard Naxalite violence. He was directly challenged by Nandini Sundar who reminded him that when she had written a letter condemning the Naxalite driven blackout in Bastar and the Salwa Judum violence earlier this year, all papers in Chhattisgarh, including Sunil Kumar's Daily Chhattisgarh, had refused to carry it. The audience were appalled to hear Sunil Kumar claim in his presentation that the"little political understanding" of the people of Chhattisgarh, unlike that of a "mature democracy" such as the US, makes them incapable of appreciating the difference between state and extra-state actors. The final speaker was Dipti Bhatnagar, a UC Berkeley graduate student who had been added to the panel at the request of student groups. She challenged Vishwa Ranjan, as the chief of Chhattisgarh police, to explain his role in suppressing dissent in Chhattisgarh. She highlighted specific cases, such as the fabrication of evidence in the trial of Dr. Binayak Sen, the arrest of documentary film maker Ajay T.G. without any charge-sheet, and the tacit complicity of the security forces with Salwa Judum when it exacted revenge on residents of Nendra village for testifying against it in front of the National Human Rights Commission. The Question & Answer Session Rajeev_Dhavan_PS Rajeev Dhavan, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court of India, started off the question and answer session by challenging DGP Vishwa Ranjan's facts and asking for his resignation. Students attending the event silently carried signs that, among other issues, voiced protest about children being held in police custody, about a Chhattisgarh superintendent of police accused of rape and murder, and about the ongoing harassment of Dr. Binayak Sen's family. One protestor carried a placard pointing out that even Gandhi would be jailed as a dissenter under Chhattisgarh's black law (CSPSA). The DGP was handed a letter written by 106 academics calling for him to address a number of egregious human rights and police brutality cases; the signatories included professors from many universities including UC Berkeley's Center for South Asia Studies, the organization co-hosting the conference. The DGP evaded most of the pointed questions from conference attendees. When asked why independent filmmaker Ajay was arrested and jailed for 93 days, given that the police has not been able to come up with charges even after 150 days, the DGP replied that it might have been a "technical mistake"! If so, then why has the police still not withdrawn the case against Ajay? How many other such technical mistakes are there? The DGP was asked that based on his claim that there are 3,200 SPOs today, and his recent article in the Pioneer where he wrote that 3,250 SPOs have been discharged for indiscipline, can one draw the conclusion that most SPOs have engaged in criminal behavior? He neither answered nor acknowledged this question. Given that the chargesheet against Dr. Binayak Sen is very vague, mentioning no date or time or place, nor a description of any actual illegal act, the DGP was asked to list the specific charges for which Dr. Binayak Sen has been imprisoned. But instead of answering the question, the DGP merely said that the charges were about providing "logistical support" to Naxalites. The DGP also claimed that he had nothing to do with Dr. Sen's imprisonment since the arrest happened before he became the DGP of Chhattisgarh, and that Dr. Sen's supporters should petition the government. The DGP is either obfuscating, or being disingenuous, because as chief of police, it is within the DGP's power to withdraw the charges against Dr. Sen, and to not oppose his bail application in the court. When asked about recruitment of child soldiers as SPOs, a very common practice in Chhattisgarh, DGP Vishwa Ranjan replied that the police do not deliberately recruit children, but go by whatever age the applicant claims to be. This means that despite reports by several independent human rights groups--including Human Rights Watch, Forum for Fact-Finding Documentation and Advocacy (FFDA), and Asian Center for Human Rights--that large numbers of children are being employed by the state as soldiers, the police has taken no steps to verify the ages of the SPOs. This is a war crime under the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court, and the DGP is liable for this gross human rights abuse. The Demands Apart from the unconditional release of Dr. Binayak Sen and other political prisoners, community members also demanded that the Salwa Judum be disarmed, the Black Law (Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act of 2005) be repealed, and the use of child soldiers in counter-insurgency measures be prohibited. Videos: 1. DGP Vishwa Ranjan on Ajay TG's case: http://tinyurl.com/3lqm5c 2. DGP Vishwa Ranjan answering Srividhya's question on Dr. Binayak Sen's arrest: http://tinyurl.com/422bbr 3. Attorney Rajeev Dhavan says charges against Dr. Binayak Sen false; asks DGP to resign: http://tinyurl.com/45cp56 4. Protestors chanting slogans after the session is over: http://tinyurl.com/52dvcq Photos: Available at: http://tinyurl.com/4uoqpc Organizations: * Students for Justice in Chhattisgarh * Alliance of South Asians Taking Action: (www.asata.org) * Alliance for a Secular and Democratic South Asia ( http://www.alliancesouthasia.org/) * Association for India's Development (http://www.aidindia.org) * Friends of South Asia (http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org/) * Campaign to Free Binayak Sen * Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (www.stopfundinghate.org/) * Hesperian Foundation, Berkeley (http://www.hesperian.org/) * International Campaign for Justice in Bhopal (www.bhopal.net * Progressive Bengali Network: ( http://www.bengali.net/pbn/ ) * People's Health Movement, USA (http://hesperian.org/ ) * Sanhati (http://sanhati.com/ ) Background: 1.FDRI/Berkeley conference is an annual conference organized jointly by the Federation of Democratic Reforms in India (www.fdri.org ) and the Center for South Asia Studies, Berkeley 2. Human Rights Watch report on Chhattisgarh: "Being Neutral is Our Biggest Crime" Government, Vigilante, and Naxalite Abuses in India's, Chhattisgarh State, 2008 http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/india0708/index.htm 3. Faculty Petition with signatures: http://tinyurl.com/3mywo7 4. Questions for the DGP available at : http://tinyurl.com/4yjvjf 5. Front and Back copy of the post card signed by DGP of Chhattisgarh, Vishwa Ranjan : http://tinyurl.com/42ne68 6. Text of the speech delivered by Dipti Bhatnagar: http://tinyurl.com/4yzjmp [See selected slides ] For more information, write to freebinayaksen at gmail.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 11:04:22 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:04:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NDTV - Green Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810032234w1a97e371g6305367d16e492f5@mail.gmail.com> a wonderful campaign by NDTV : http://green.ndtv.com/ Just listen to NDTV- Toyota Green Anthem on the homepage. It gives a very important message. Well done NDTV ....Congratulations.... Lets go for that "Green" which would save the world. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 11:27:19 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:27:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sign The Petition for Soumya Viswanathan In-Reply-To: <6353c690810032256j109ee92dsaf54604215667a79@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810032256j109ee92dsaf54604215667a79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810032257n34b2a680gc84603e6b6b96bb2@mail.gmail.com> Please Sign The Petition* *for* Speedier 'Justice for Soumya Viswanathan'* Link - http://www.petitiononline.com/soumyav/petition-sign.html Please spread the word. Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul Soumya Viswanathan, a Producer with news channel Headlines Today, was murdered in Delhi in the wee hours of Tuesday. Soumya was killed while driving from her Jhandewalan office to her Vasant Kunj residence. From rama.sangye at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 11:33:13 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:33:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tata bye bye Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0810032303q740781d0g71dd7f2a9f74540a@mail.gmail.com> From: http://cuckooscall.blogspot.com/ Finally, Mr Ratan Tata has announced that the Nano car plant of Tata Motors will not come up in Singur. The reason he has cited for his decision is the agitation led by Ms Mamata Bannerjee, on behalf of the farmers whose land was forcibly acquired for Tata by the West Bengal state govt. But all thinking people can only welcome this decision. Sure, when someone loses something, they are not going to give it up gladly. They are going to scream and shout and rant and rave and protest and sulk and pout... The shrill cacophony of demolished delight over West Bengal's industrial resurgence is just that. The truth is that the Tata pullout is good news, for a number of reasons. First, a resounding slap has been administered on the face of the CPI(M). In May 2006, riding high on a wave of media hype and puff, the party had declared that Tata's Nano unit was going to be located in West Bengal. In less than two and a half years, they have been brought to their knees, and entirely by their own idiocy and arrogance. The CPI(M) thought (and still thinks) that they own the state, that they can do as they please, that they can snarl and kick people into submitting to its dictates. Well, they have learnt a lesson, but yes, given what CPI(M) is, it never learns the right kind of lessons. But learn or don't learn, they have had to face facts. And that is indeed something positive. Second, in recent weeks the discourse on the Nano project has brought to the fore the fact that the West Bengal govt is in effect subsidising Tata Motors, to enable the car to be priced at Rs 1 lakh (one hundred thousand rupees, or about $ 2,500). Now why should the state subsidise Tata Motors? (see: http://thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?clid=4&id=251412&usrsess=1) Why should it subsidise a car project? Why should it subsidise purchasers of a car? Why should it subsidise personal transport? In economists' jargon, the opportunity cost of state expenditure on the Nano project, i.e. what is lost by such support, or the alternatives upon which this could instead have been spent, was simply too high. Third, from about 2005, the CPI(M) had been hoodlumming through its land acquisition drive, to please its capitalist masters. The Nandigram agitation had punctured that. And now, the Tata withdrawal from Singur has just emphasised once more to the CPI(M), in brutal terms, that it cannot grab farmers' land. It was protest in Singur, from 2006, that had catalysed people's agitations across West Bengal, and begun the process of demise of the mafia mobster party, something most people could never have anticipated. All that remains now, the icing on the cake for the people of Bengal, is the verdict of the court on Suhrid Dutta, the CPI(M)'s Singur zonal committee secretary. He is in custody and facing trial on the accusation of organising the rape and murder of Tapasi Malik, a teenage girl who was a member of the farmers' anti-land acquisition movement in Singur. I hope he is hanged. If the people of West Bengal want something positive for themselves, then they should not depend upon the CPI(M) or on external vultures like Tata Motors to give it to them on a platter. That will only bring deceit and destruction. There is much than can and should be done. There is public transport. There is public healthcare. There is public education. There are closed industries that need reviving. There are many, many products that can be produced, which would be salubrious in every way. But for that, vision, enterprise and effort are needed. Thanks to the CPI(M)'s noxious nurturing these are hard to find in Bengal today. But unless the people of Bengal come forward to build Bengal's future, the only prospect is submission to CPI(M) and Tatas, the road to slavery. The slaves and the slave contractors are wailing at the exit of Tata. But if there was ever a bright day for Bengal, then it was 3 October, the date of the Tata pull-out. For this date tells the people of Bengal that freedom won through hardship is more precious than the comfits of slavery. Apparently the state industries minister, Nirupam Sen, has said that he does not feel like living in Bengal. Well, I hope he goes away very soon. It seems he has begun to get a taste of what the common people of the land have been feeling for over 2 decades. Thanks to the presence of his wonderful party, there has been a mass migration of people from the state, by choice and by compulsion. Any person in his or her senses, who knew what was best for one's future, left the state. Only vultures flocked to the land, and the party was their lapdog. But with the Tata pull-out, people should start reconsidering. Maybe its time for all those who had forsaken Bengal, all those who had been driven out, to think of returning. There's a future to be built. The rats will be leaving their sinking ship. And for those who held on to hope and humanity and hope and stayed behind, perhaps vindication is finally arriving. From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 16:00:48 2008 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:00:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Protest Against attacks on christain in Orissa and Karnataka In-Reply-To: <71a661040810040015nc13728co854b1f2dc6dad516@mail.gmail.com> References: <219393.3284.qm@web8708.mail.in.yahoo.com> <71a661040810040015nc13728co854b1f2dc6dad516@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: hasina khan Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:01:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: Protest Against attacks on christain in Orissa and Karnataka Dear all, As women's groups, we are organising a silent march, protesting the continuing attacks on Christians, their homes, property and churches in Orissa and Karnataka, on the 8th of October from 3 pm. We shall gather at 3 pm at Churchgate station and march in silence to Hutatma Chowk, from there we shall continue to Azad Maidan, where there will be a few speakers who will address the gathering, and songs and some slogans. As groups we will be carrying placards and banners but the march itself will be a protest in silence. Several students from Nirmala Niketan and TISS will be participating in the march. Please join in large numbers and inform others too about this protest march. Hasina for Awaaz-e-Niswan, Mumbai From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 17:15:27 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:15:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> Dear Nazneen, I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked it. I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when the world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets destabilized. I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being earnest is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving flags, and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put it. This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've assogined yourself. Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till then we will have to consider comments such as - Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university > professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in > turn > results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many > friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read just > two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that > reader > who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up networking, > networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and that > elusive tenure! > - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing the sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the faux ayyar persona you have made your own. I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) Warmly Aarti > > > The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and > other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of formatting > issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, > > http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > > ****************************** > > http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > > Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic > fads > > [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need > sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] > > We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the > stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on the > arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, but > things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these > so-called > theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, and > to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of the > rise and fall of these fashions. > > I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic > journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an article > or > review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than > journals). > This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the true > believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one believes > it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will have > less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because > most > JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years > after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible > even > as of 2002. > > Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of articles > with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles that > JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the data on > total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge change > in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- > then > we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw > counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp our > view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles being > written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the same > -- > a sustained decline must be real. > > Some thoughts: > > First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- > orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's > hard > to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in > 2002, > although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems to be > only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a down-turn. > > Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social > constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to > fall > from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time frame > saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. > Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to > deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s an > academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long it > had been festering there. > > If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model for > the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an exogenous > shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that had > begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at the > same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population densities, > where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we wandered > onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued us > for much longer than others. > > Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of noise, > or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the vicissitudes of > politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made an > impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory Tower > for > nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting the > growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the Berlin > Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was > already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its > explosion during the 1960s and '70s. > > Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in the > 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own > accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. > Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion others > that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due to > chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant at > the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. > > This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is wrong. > Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough > that > if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra the > view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, though, > we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of the > classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and > non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all that > matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or > Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers since > the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower rate > in > 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even > then > its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of depressing > for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some point, > the > fuckers will get theirs. > > Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in a > literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent > angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you can't > pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as such -- > high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in grad > school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good > reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have > filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole > thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime soon. > Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and social > sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. > > Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize that > you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles -- or > have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you wouldn't be > able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll students > in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among > current > students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should compare > arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was > becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure they > rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just like > today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in > reality, > they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are > opting for greener pastures. > > Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young people > today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable > college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If they > begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is still > very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of cooling > off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a > less > strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to > latch > on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, this > makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 at > the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among safe > cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in for > Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point > (even > if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't even > born when Marxism had already started to die. > > It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative years > of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the mid-late > '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out from > 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off > dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly > angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize with > people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an > intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you > didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby Boomer > peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since their > young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human evolution > -- > they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was > eager > to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race after > all. What a loser. > > * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it > extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before then > (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the > recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 17:29:19 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:29:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia: Life after Encounter - TOI Saturday Feature Message-ID: <6353c690810040459kc57b4fct492f0ef839957023@mail.gmail.com> Jamia : Life after Encounter Spirit willing Life is slowly limping back to normal, Aditya Raj Kaul, Jamia Nagar - (complete column for The Times of India's - South Delhi Plus) Saturday, October 4th, 2008 - "Jamia Millia Islamia stands for Peace, Communal Harmony and Tolerance"; posters with messages such as these welcome us inside the Jamia campus bordering South Delhi. Moving along the University, the road narrows down ahead at the chowk. An elevated cemetery to our left marks the entrance to the famous Batla House. An uneasy calm prevails through the lanes of the market inside Batla House and Zakir Nagar; days after an encounter took place at the neighboring Jamia Nagar killing an inspector and two terrorists. Life in and around the locality has come a long way since then. Fear psychosis runs deep here. Please check the complete article with pics on - http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/2008/10/jamia-life-after-encounter.html Comments are welcome on the blog. Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Writer, The Times of India From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sat Oct 4 19:49:13 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 15:19:13 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and everyone else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by what they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your conceptual understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially with whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or mills and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both marx and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled pseudo post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or an out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays one reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and respect your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but please tell me do calling names serve any purpose? Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable because one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, SC, Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk to me or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as a 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you tagged me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these most honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really too boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find all earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most of the times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest work boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on this or why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual capacity find boring? 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you posted this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I don't think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though at times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank you for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list Aarti? Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I assume, you are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a liar when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared public space where people from different persuasions can come and engage? Do you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or many of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be arrogantly snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have demonstrated 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) or engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your respected self but only as 'them'? I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared public space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, and no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' from you. 5. ' gibberish about marx ' Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda Aarti. Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn the intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect this sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their gibberish about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized pedagogy often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas still one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and language. While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle of hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a market for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas that many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is often peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students who want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. 6. 'Keep posting' I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a pleasure writing to you Aarti. Will eagerly look forward for your response. In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! Warm regards Nazo On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear Nazneen, > > I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked it. > I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a > generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when the > world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets destabilized. > I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being earnest > is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the > "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving flags, > and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put it. > This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've > assogined yourself. > > Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till then we > will have to consider comments such as - > > Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university >> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in >> turn >> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many >> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read just >> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that >> reader >> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up networking, >> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and that >> elusive tenure! >> > > > - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing the > sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as > "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the faux > ayyar persona you have made your own. > > I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) > Warmly > > Aarti > > > > >> >> >> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and >> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of formatting >> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, >> >> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php >> >> ****************************** >> >> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php >> >> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic >> fads >> >> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need >> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] >> >> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the >> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on the >> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, >> but >> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these >> so-called >> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, >> and >> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of the >> rise and fall of these fashions. >> >> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic >> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an article >> or >> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than >> journals). >> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the true >> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one >> believes >> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will >> have >> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because >> most >> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years >> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible >> even >> as of 2002. >> >> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of articles >> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles >> that >> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the data >> on >> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge change >> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- >> then >> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw >> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp our >> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles being >> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the same >> -- >> a sustained decline must be real. >> >> Some thoughts: >> >> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- >> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's >> hard >> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in >> 2002, >> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems to >> be >> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a >> down-turn. >> >> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social >> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to >> fall >> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time frame >> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. >> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to >> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s an >> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long it >> had been festering there. >> >> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model for >> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an exogenous >> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that >> had >> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at the >> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population densities, >> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we wandered >> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued us >> for much longer than others. >> >> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of >> noise, >> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the vicissitudes >> of >> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made an >> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory Tower >> for >> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting the >> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the Berlin >> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was >> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its >> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. >> >> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in >> the >> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own >> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. >> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion others >> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due to >> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant at >> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. >> >> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is wrong. >> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough >> that >> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra >> the >> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, >> though, >> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of the >> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and >> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all that >> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or >> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers since >> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower rate >> in >> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even >> then >> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of depressing >> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some point, >> the >> fuckers will get theirs. >> >> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in a >> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent >> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you >> can't >> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as such -- >> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in grad >> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good >> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have >> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole >> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime soon. >> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and >> social >> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. >> >> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize >> that >> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles -- >> or >> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you wouldn't >> be >> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll students >> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among >> current >> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should compare >> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was >> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure >> they >> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just like >> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in >> reality, >> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are >> opting for greener pastures. >> >> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young >> people >> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable >> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If they >> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is still >> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of cooling >> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a >> less >> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to >> latch >> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, this >> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 at >> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among safe >> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in >> for >> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point >> (even >> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't >> even >> born when Marxism had already started to die. >> >> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative years >> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the >> mid-late >> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out from >> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off >> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly >> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize >> with >> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an >> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you >> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby Boomer >> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since >> their >> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human evolution >> -- >> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was >> eager >> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race >> after >> all. What a loser. >> >> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it >> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before then >> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the >> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 20:38:34 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:38:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990810040808k1d3f6d4dhc7e015bfdd255fa7@mail.gmail.com> Dear Nazneen, Don't know about you, but I certainly judge people by what they post. That is based on the hope that the person has a) read what they are posting; and b) they are posting the information as they either agree or disagree or at least have some point to make about it. Rgds, Partha On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > Dear Aarti, > > 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and everyone > else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each > other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by what > they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only > because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your conceptual > understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially with > whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or mills > and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both marx > and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have > responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled pseudo > post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or an > out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose > understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays one > reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that > because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and respect > your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but please > tell me do calling names serve any purpose? > > Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > because > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, SC, > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I > assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk to me > or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as a > 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you tagged > me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these most > honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. > > 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really too > boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find all > earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most of > the > times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest work > boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on this > or > why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual capacity > find boring? > > 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you posted > this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and > down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I don't > think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and > down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though at > times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. > > 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank you > for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) > > By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list > Aarti? > Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I assume, > you > are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list > being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a > liar > when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared > public space where people from different persuasions can come and engage? > Do > you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or > many > of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain > preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be arrogantly > snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have > demonstrated > 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) or > engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your > respected self but only as 'them'? > > I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared public > space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, and > no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' from > you. > > 5. ' gibberish about marx ' > > Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda Aarti. > Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn the > intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect this > sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. > > What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their gibberish > about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' > gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the > meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized > pedagogy > often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. > > Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas still > one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and > breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and language. > While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle of > hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a market > for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many > begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. > > But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas that > many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is often > peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students who > want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such > 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. > > 6. 'Keep posting' > > I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a > pleasure writing to you Aarti. > > Will eagerly look forward for your response. > > In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! > > Warm regards > > Nazo > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked > it. > > I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a > > generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when the > > world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets > destabilized. > > I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being > earnest > > is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the > > "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving flags, > > and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put > it. > > This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've > > assogined yourself. > > > > Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the > > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till then > we > > will have to consider comments such as - > > > > Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university > >> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in > >> turn > >> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many > >> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read > just > >> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that > >> reader > >> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up networking, > >> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and that > >> elusive tenure! > >> > > > > > > - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing the > > sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as > > "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the faux > > ayyar persona you have made your own. > > > > I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) > > Warmly > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and > >> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of > formatting > >> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, > >> > >> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >> > >> ****************************** > >> > >> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >> > >> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic > >> fads > >> > >> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need > >> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] > >> > >> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the > >> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on > the > >> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, > >> but > >> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these > >> so-called > >> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, > >> and > >> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of > the > >> rise and fall of these fashions. > >> > >> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic > >> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an > article > >> or > >> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than > >> journals). > >> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the > true > >> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one > >> believes > >> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will > >> have > >> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because > >> most > >> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years > >> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible > >> even > >> as of 2002. > >> > >> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of articles > >> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles > >> that > >> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the data > >> on > >> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge > change > >> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- > >> then > >> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw > >> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp > our > >> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles being > >> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the > same > >> -- > >> a sustained decline must be real. > >> > >> Some thoughts: > >> > >> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- > >> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's > >> hard > >> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in > >> 2002, > >> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems to > >> be > >> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a > >> down-turn. > >> > >> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social > >> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to > >> fall > >> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time > frame > >> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. > >> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to > >> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s > an > >> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long > it > >> had been festering there. > >> > >> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model > for > >> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an exogenous > >> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that > >> had > >> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at the > >> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population > densities, > >> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we wandered > >> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued > us > >> for much longer than others. > >> > >> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of > >> noise, > >> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the vicissitudes > >> of > >> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made > an > >> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory Tower > >> for > >> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting > the > >> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the Berlin > >> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was > >> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its > >> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. > >> > >> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in > >> the > >> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own > >> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. > >> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion > others > >> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due to > >> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant > at > >> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. > >> > >> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is > wrong. > >> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough > >> that > >> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra > >> the > >> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, > >> though, > >> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of the > >> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and > >> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all that > >> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or > >> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers > since > >> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower > rate > >> in > >> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even > >> then > >> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of > depressing > >> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some point, > >> the > >> fuckers will get theirs. > >> > >> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in a > >> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent > >> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you > >> can't > >> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as such > -- > >> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in > grad > >> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good > >> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have > >> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole > >> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime > soon. > >> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and > >> social > >> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. > >> > >> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize > >> that > >> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles -- > >> or > >> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you wouldn't > >> be > >> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll > students > >> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among > >> current > >> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should > compare > >> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was > >> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure > >> they > >> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just > like > >> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in > >> reality, > >> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are > >> opting for greener pastures. > >> > >> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young > >> people > >> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable > >> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If > they > >> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is > still > >> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of > cooling > >> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a > >> less > >> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to > >> latch > >> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, this > >> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 > at > >> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among safe > >> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in > >> for > >> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point > >> (even > >> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't > >> even > >> born when Marxism had already started to die. > >> > >> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative > years > >> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the > >> mid-late > >> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out > from > >> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off > >> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly > >> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize > >> with > >> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an > >> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you > >> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby > Boomer > >> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since > >> their > >> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human > evolution > >> -- > >> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was > >> eager > >> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race > >> after > >> all. What a loser. > >> > >> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it > >> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before > then > >> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the > >> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 21:38:36 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:08:36 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Mapping the Indian Mujahideen (From the Hindu) Message-ID: <8F66D25A560C49788553AF3CC60A8F11@shabori> Mapping the Indian Mujahideen Praveen Swami India's most feared terrorist group isn't so much an organisation as a movement: a loose coalition of jihadists bound togetherby ideological affiliation and personal ties. Eight days before he was shot dead, top Indian Mujahideen (IM) operative Atif Amin helped to draft the manifesto that the terror group was to issue after the Delhi serial bombings. He insisted on the inclusion of a reference to his heroes. "We have carried out this attack," read the e-mail sent to newsrooms after the September 13 bombings, "in the memory of two of the most eminent mujahids of India: Sayyid Ahmad, shaheed, and Shah Ismail, shaheed, (may Allah bestow His Mercy upon them) who had raised the glorious banner of jihad against the disbelievers." Ahmad and Ismail were killed at Balakote in May 1831, while waging an unsuccessful jihad against Maharaja Ranjit Singh's empire. The two men had set out with 600 followers from Rae Bareilly five years earlier to defend Islam at a time when the Mughal power had, for all practical purposes, given way to British rule. Like his heroes, Amin found the martyrdom he worshipped: his death was the latest success in a string of nationwide intelligence-led operations targeting the IM. But the arrests of a bewildering succession of its operatives - each proclaimed by police to be "leader", "top commander" and "mastermind" - have done little to further the understanding of just what the group is about or the threat it still poses. Mapping the IM isn't easy: it is more a social network than structured organisation; a label used by a loose coalition of jihadists bound together by ideological affiliation and personal linkages. In this, it is not unlike the al-Qaeda, whose operatives are drawn from the multiple transnational terror groups allied under the banner of the International Islamic Front for Jihad against Jews and Crusaders. Who, then, makes up the IM and how do its networks function? India's intelligence services now believe Amin had the overall control of the IM's operations unit: a group of at least two dozen Uttar Pradesh residents, most from the district of Azamgarh. Under Amin's command, the cell's operatives were dispatched nationwide to assemble and plant the explosive devices used in the bombings which began with attacks on three trial court buildings in the State in November 2007. Amin and several other core members of the group are thought to have trained with the Harkat ul-Jihad-e-Islami in Bangladesh. In time, they passed on their skills to fresh recruits from Azamgarh, raised by local cleric Abul Bashar Qasmi and Lucknow-based Islamist activist and businessman Shahbaz Husain. Gangster Riyaz Batkal - a lieutenant of mafioso-turned-jihadist Aftab Ansari - ran a second group which provided funds and logistics support to the IM. Batkal's associate Afzal Usmani, for example, arranged for the theft of the vehicles used as car bombs in Ahmedabad. More important, Batkal's group provided an interface among jihadists in India, the Harkat in Bangladesh, and the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad. Investigators in Maharashtra believe that Batkal's cell provided infrastructure for several past terror operations, including the 2006 serial bombings in Mumbai. Ansari himself is thought to have been radicalised by the top JeM operative Syed Omar Sheikh - released in the December 1999 Indian Airlines IC-814 hostages-for-terrorists swap in Kandahar and now on death row in Pakistan - when both were in prison together. Ansari then helped to create an organisation of Indian jihadists named after Asif Raza Khan, a gangster killed in a 2001 encounter with the Gujarat police. Among other operations, the Asif Raza Commando Force executed a 2001 terror attack in Kolkata. Scattered across India The elements of other IM infrastructure and its top leadership are scattered across India. Qayamuddin Kapadia, leader of the Gujarat-based Students Islamic Movement of India, drew on the banned group's membership for the local guidance and support that Amin and Batkal needed. Bomb components were manufactured at a still unidentified facility near Mangalore. And Mumbai-based Abdul Subhan Qureshi travelled across India, knitting these multiple terror threads into a single, lethal weave. Most of those arrested so far are children of the prosperous, but socially conservative, urban middle class. On his Orkut website, Amin identified his camcorder and laptop computer as his most valuable possessions. He also recorded that a copy of the Koran could be found in his bedroom and that he hated music and dating. Almost all of the Azamgarh cell members studied together in an English-medium school; several went to New Delhi for higher studies in business administration, computers and the media. Parts of the IM manifesto issued after the Delhi bombings, interestingly, were plagiarised from an article by researcher K.K. Shahina for the media critique website, Hoot. The Azamgarh jihadists appear to have been drawn to the IM angered by the horror of the 2002 communal pogrom in Gujarat. For other IM members, those riots were a lived reality. Among them was Vadodara resident Imran Sheikh, in whose home the bombs used to target Surat are alleged to have been assembled. His mother, Hameeda Bano, was seriously injured in the pogrom. Sheikh's father, Ibrahim Sheikh, had already been made invalid by a chronic cardiac condition, and the loss of Hameeda Bano's income forced him to drop out of school. He began to make a meagre living selling saris in Vadodara's Panigate area. It was around this time, investigators say, that Kapadia recruited Sheikh. First, he persuaded the sari salesman to abandon the traditionalist religious practices of his parents and join the Jamaat Ahl-e-Hadith, a neo-conservative sect founded by the followers of the Balakote martyrs. Later, in 2005, Kapadia introduced Sheikh to SIMI - and key IM figures like Abdul Subhan Qureshi. By the time Sheikh was recruited, the IM had begun its war against India - but without the name by which we now know it. In September 2002, just weeks after the Gujarat pogrom, at least 14 young men from Hyderabad set out on secret journeys to terror training camps in Pakistan. Gujarat-based mafioso Rasool Khan Pathan arranged for some to train with the Lashkar, while others were routed to the JeM and the Harkat: a fluid dispersion of assets across organisational lines never seen before the 2002 pogrom. Within weeks of their return, the new recruits executed their first successful strikes. Asad Yazdani commanded the assassination of the Gujarat pogrom-complicit, the former Home Minister Haren Pandya. Later, Yazdani organised the June 2005 bombing of the Delhi-Patna Shramjeevi Express, the first post-Gujarat terror bombing of real consequence. Yazdani was shot dead by the police in March 2006, just hours after the bombing of the Sankat Mochan temple in Varanasi - an operation the IM claimed as its own in a manifesto released after the November 2007 bombings in Uttar Pradesh. Yazdani's killing did little, though, to dent the offensive aspirations of the terror networks which now call themselves the IM. Late in May 2005, the Maharashtra police recovered over 24 kg of Research Department Explosive packed in computer cases which had been shipped across the Indian Ocean to the town of Aurangabad. Investigators later discovered that the explosive was intended for a massive terror campaign targeting Gujarat. Long-time SIMI activist Zabiuddin Ansari, who handled the operation, escaped to Pakistan. Several similar terror attacks were attempted. In May 2006, the Delhi police shot dead Pakistani Lashkar operative Mohammad Iqbal, the author of another attempted bombing in Gujarat. Feroze Ghaswala, a Mumbai automobile mechanic who joined the jihad after witnessing the 2002 pogrom, and Abdul Chhippa, a computer engineer, were held for their role in the plot. Soon after, India's post-Gujarat jihadists finally succeeded in delivering the vengeance they had long sought: the Mumbai serial bombings of 2006. Since the Mumbai serial bombings, though, pressure has been mounted on Pakistan to terminate the jihad against India. Indian jihadists based in Pakistan were told they could no longer have the direct operational support of the Harkat or the Lashkar. Explosives like RDX, which could be traced back to Pakistan-based groups, were no longer to be used. Altered jihadist strategies Last year, evidence of altered jihadist strategies began to emerge. The police learned from a one-time Andhra Pradesh resident Raziuddin Nasir, who was arrested while planning attacks targeting tourists in Goa, that Rasool Khan 'Party' had ordered an escalation of jihadist operations in India. Funds had been collected from Indian supporters of jihad based in West Asia. Later, the interrogation of top SIMI leaders threw up revelations that dozens of men had been recruited to the IM at camps held in Kerala, Karnataka, Gujarat, Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh through 2007 and early 2008. No one is certain just who first thought of the name Indian Mujahideen, and under what circumstances. Most of the men who could provide an answer - among them Qureshi and Kapadia - are missing; Amin, of course, is dead. Where might things go from here? India's police and intelligence services will be focussing on the immediate task: locating and neutralising the IM's surviving leadership before the next big bombing. But politicians in New Delhi could learn lessons from Sayyid Ahmad's failed jihad. The Balakote jihad was defeated, in part, because of the superior military resources and intelligence assets of Ranjit Singh's armies - and also, historian Ayesha Jalal reminds us, because of the resistance of the Pashtun tribes to Sayyid Ahmad's coercive, shariah-based order. India's politicians must reach out to the young people drawn to the jihad if it is to be defeated, and restore faith in the idea that democracy can indeed deliver justice. From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 21:39:08 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:09:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Stop the Violence Against Christians (Hindu Editorial page) Message-ID: <3F1C2088E80A4B9FA556E8D7049DC6DC@shabori> Stop the violence against Christians The continuing large-scale violence targeting Christians in Orissa's Kandhamal district is indicative of a constitutional breakdown in the area. More than a month after organised violence broke out in the wake of the August 23 murder of an anti-conversion Hindutva activist, Swami Lakshmanananda, by suspected Maoist elements, the district continues to be out of bounds for the secular Constitution and the rule of law. Numerous atrocities have been committed - inc luding murder, rape, arson, assaults on Christians, their churches, and service institutions, the intimidation of Dalits to make them give up the Christian faith, and the conversion of large numbers of people into refugees. This reign of terror, which has been reported in depth and with fresh detail in the columns of The Hindu, calls for the strongest action by the State government. Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik professes modernity and secularism but his Biju Janata Dal is locked in a political alliance with the Bharatiya Janata Party. In consequence, the coalition's response to the crisis has been worse than inept. If it is to regain credibility, the State government must act urgently to stop the semi-fascist attacks carried out by extremist saffron organisations. It must protect the people and places targeted, restore public order in Kandhamal district, ensure the safe return of the internally displaced, and enforce the rule of law. At another level, the situation calls for effective intervention by the Central government. Up to this point, it has done precious little to stop the mischief, with its Article 355 advisories failing to have any effect on the ground. As many as 77 companies of Central paramilitary forces are available to the State government but it has avoided their effective deployment to act against the thugs and protect their target. Now, after enormous damage has been done, the Central Cabinet has bestirred itself over the "very grave situation" and Home Minister Shivraj Patil has issued a stern warning to the Patnaik government. What is evident from the published accounts of the victims, clerical and lay, is that in several instances the police have watched the atrocities in silence. They have refused to register cases - even when the crime was murder - on the basis of complaints made by the affected families. Such extreme indifference suggests complicity of a dangerous political kind. So bad was the situation that the Orissa High Court had to direct the Superintendent of Police of Kandhamal to take stringent action against policemen found sympathising with the rioters. The rape of a 28-year-old nun and the brutal assault of a priest on August 25 at K. Nuagaon took place in front of a police outpost. It was only after the media began to focus on this shocking case that it was handed over to the State police's Crime Branch, four persons were arrested, and the inspector in charge of the Baliguda police station was placed under suspension. Unfortunately, under the circumstances, there will be little confidence that any arm of the State police can uphold the law, free from political interference. In the interest of an objective and speedy investigation, pressure must be brought on the State government to hand over the case to the Central Bureau of Investigation; if this fails, the higher judiciary can be approached through a petition seeking the transfer of the case, by court order, to the CBI. Equally important, tough disciplinary action must be taken against senior police officers guilty of dereliction of duty. This will send out a salutary signal and help turn the situation around. From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Oct 4 21:58:14 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:58:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! In-Reply-To: <6353c690810030241n6df797cfj7938c43843c63a42@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810030241n6df797cfj7938c43843c63a42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810040928o3fb7fbb4ja096312a5ac4e82c@mail.gmail.com> While one commends efforts to seek the truth about Soumya Viswanathan's murder, I was struck by one line in this mail: > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the sort > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. I wonder why it didn't mention Hemraj Banjade even as it did Arushi Talwar. Weren't both murdered the same night, in the same house? I can understand that we don't care about the poor being murdered, we don't launch campaigns for them, we don't sit in TV studios and lecture the world on justice, police, government. But in this case, surely, to show our bias so blatantly as to mention only one of the two victims of a "double murder" - this is rather foolish. As we go about seeking justice for every middle class/elite woman killed, we must not leave any signs that let the world guess that we don't care about the rest. Aditya, please note! best shivam On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Forwarded Message by Achint Anand - Headlines Today > > ****************************************************************** > > All of you are aware of the tragic passing away of our colleague Soumya > Viswanathan. > > A promising young Producer, Soumya was loved by her seniors and peers, and > revered by her juniors. Soumya was murdered while driving back home from > work after completing an unusually long shift at work, having stayed back to > help with her channel Headlines Today's coverage of the blasts in Gujarat > and Maharashtra on the 29th of September, 2008. > > She was killed by a bullet to her head in the wee hours of Tuesday, the 30th > of September. > > We are waiting for the police to find the person (or people) who committed > this dastardly act. We are waiting for answers, as we struggle to come to > terms with our dear friend's unfair death. > > But while we wait, we want to help the investigation. We want to do what we > can to do the only thing we can for Soumya – find the murderer, who is still > walking free. > > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the sort > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > This note is to invite you to join the campaign. This is to request you to > lend your voice, lend whatever power you have, to help us in our campaign. > > Come. Bring your friends. Bring whoever you think can help us. > > VENUE: The Press Club of India, Raisina Road, New Delhi > DATE: 4th October 2008 > TIME: 1.00pm > > From, > > Friends of Soumya Viswanathan > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sat Oct 4 22:30:25 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 18:00:25 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. In-Reply-To: <32144e990810040808k1d3f6d4dhc7e015bfdd255fa7@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810040808k1d3f6d4dhc7e015bfdd255fa7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0810041000o2d59dcc7s16ee5dd50f4be977@mail.gmail.com> Dear Partha, Thank you for sharing with us how you judge people. I agree with your underlying assumptions. But at the same time don't you feel that 'judging people' is a far more complex exercise than a mere signification of their likes or dislikes or indifference as a forwarded post perhaps suggests. The poet comments- 'Insaan ki parakh main hay sau bhul ka andesha'. Warm regards Nazo On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Dear Nazneen, > > Don't know about you, but I certainly judge people by what they post. > That is based on the hope that the person has a) read what they are > posting; and b) they are posting the information as they either agree > or disagree or at least have some point to make about it. > > Rgds, Partha > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:49 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Aarti, >> >> 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and >> everyone >> else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each >> other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by what >> they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only >> because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your conceptual >> understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially with >> whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or >> mills >> and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both marx >> and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have >> responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled pseudo >> post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or an >> out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose >> understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays one >> reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that >> because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and respect >> your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but please >> tell me do calling names serve any purpose? >> >> Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each >> other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into >> abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. >> Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable >> because >> one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, >> SC, >> Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I >> assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk to >> me >> or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as a >> 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you >> tagged >> me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these most >> honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. >> >> 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really too >> boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find all >> earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most of >> the >> times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest work >> boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on this >> or >> why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual capacity >> find boring? >> >> 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you posted >> this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up >> and >> down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I don't >> think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and >> down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though at >> times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. >> >> 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on >> the >> history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank >> you >> for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) >> >> By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list >> Aarti? >> Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I assume, >> you >> are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list >> being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a >> liar >> when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared >> public space where people from different persuasions can come and engage? >> Do >> you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or >> many >> of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain >> preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be >> arrogantly >> snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have >> demonstrated >> 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) or >> engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your >> respected self but only as 'them'? >> >> I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared public >> space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, and >> no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' from >> you. >> >> 5. ' gibberish about marx ' >> >> Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda Aarti. >> Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn the >> intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect this >> sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. >> >> What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their >> gibberish >> about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' >> gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the >> meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized >> pedagogy >> often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. >> >> Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas >> still >> one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and >> breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and language. >> While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle of >> hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a >> market >> for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many >> begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. >> >> But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas that >> many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is often >> peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students who >> want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such >> 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. >> >> 6. 'Keep posting' >> >> I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a >> pleasure writing to you Aarti. >> >> Will eagerly look forward for your response. >> >> In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! >> >> Warm regards >> >> Nazo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Nazneen, >> > >> > I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked >> it. >> > I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a >> > generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when >> the >> > world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets >> destabilized. >> > I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being >> earnest >> > is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the >> > "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving >> flags, >> > and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put >> it. >> > This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've >> > assogined yourself. >> > >> > Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the >> > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till >> then we >> > will have to consider comments such as - >> > >> > Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university >> >> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in >> >> turn >> >> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many >> >> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read >> just >> >> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that >> >> reader >> >> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up >> networking, >> >> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and >> that >> >> elusive tenure! >> >> >> > >> > >> > - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing >> the >> > sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as >> > "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the >> faux >> > ayyar persona you have made your own. >> > >> > I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) >> > Warmly >> > >> > Aarti >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and >> >> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of >> formatting >> >> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, >> >> >> >> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php >> >> >> >> ****************************** >> >> >> >> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php >> >> >> >> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid >> academic >> >> fads >> >> >> >> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need >> >> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] >> >> >> >> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the >> >> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on >> the >> >> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, >> >> but >> >> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these >> >> so-called >> >> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, >> >> and >> >> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of >> the >> >> rise and fall of these fashions. >> >> >> >> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic >> >> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an >> article >> >> or >> >> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than >> >> journals). >> >> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the >> true >> >> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one >> >> believes >> >> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will >> >> have >> >> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because >> >> most >> >> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years >> >> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible >> >> even >> >> as of 2002. >> >> >> >> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of >> articles >> >> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles >> >> that >> >> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the >> data >> >> on >> >> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge >> change >> >> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- >> >> then >> >> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw >> >> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp >> our >> >> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles >> being >> >> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the >> same >> >> -- >> >> a sustained decline must be real. >> >> >> >> Some thoughts: >> >> >> >> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- >> >> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's >> >> hard >> >> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in >> >> 2002, >> >> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems >> to >> >> be >> >> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a >> >> down-turn. >> >> >> >> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social >> >> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to >> >> fall >> >> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time >> frame >> >> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. >> >> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to >> >> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s >> an >> >> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long >> it >> >> had been festering there. >> >> >> >> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model >> for >> >> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an >> exogenous >> >> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that >> >> had >> >> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at >> the >> >> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population >> densities, >> >> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we >> wandered >> >> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued >> us >> >> for much longer than others. >> >> >> >> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of >> >> noise, >> >> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the >> vicissitudes >> >> of >> >> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made >> an >> >> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory >> Tower >> >> for >> >> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting >> the >> >> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the >> Berlin >> >> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was >> >> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its >> >> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. >> >> >> >> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in >> >> the >> >> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own >> >> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. >> >> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion >> others >> >> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due >> to >> >> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant >> at >> >> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. >> >> >> >> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is >> wrong. >> >> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough >> >> that >> >> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra >> >> the >> >> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, >> >> though, >> >> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of >> the >> >> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and >> >> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all >> that >> >> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or >> >> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers >> since >> >> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower >> rate >> >> in >> >> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even >> >> then >> >> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of >> depressing >> >> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some >> point, >> >> the >> >> fuckers will get theirs. >> >> >> >> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in >> a >> >> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent >> >> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you >> >> can't >> >> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as such >> -- >> >> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in >> grad >> >> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good >> >> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have >> >> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole >> >> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime >> soon. >> >> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and >> >> social >> >> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. >> >> >> >> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize >> >> that >> >> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles >> -- >> >> or >> >> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you >> wouldn't >> >> be >> >> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll >> students >> >> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among >> >> current >> >> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should >> compare >> >> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was >> >> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure >> >> they >> >> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just >> like >> >> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in >> >> reality, >> >> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are >> >> opting for greener pastures. >> >> >> >> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young >> >> people >> >> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable >> >> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If >> they >> >> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is >> still >> >> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of >> cooling >> >> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a >> >> less >> >> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to >> >> latch >> >> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, >> this >> >> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 >> at >> >> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among >> safe >> >> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in >> >> for >> >> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point >> >> (even >> >> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't >> >> even >> >> born when Marxism had already started to die. >> >> >> >> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative >> years >> >> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the >> >> mid-late >> >> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out >> from >> >> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off >> >> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly >> >> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize >> >> with >> >> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an >> >> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you >> >> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby >> Boomer >> >> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since >> >> their >> >> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human >> evolution >> >> -- >> >> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was >> >> eager >> >> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race >> >> after >> >> all. What a loser. >> >> >> >> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it >> >> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before >> then >> >> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the >> >> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 22:38:34 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:38:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810040928o3fb7fbb4ja096312a5ac4e82c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810030241n6df797cfj7938c43843c63a42@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810040928o3fb7fbb4ja096312a5ac4e82c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810041008qd3a0bfft83da304325eaf3e4@mail.gmail.com> True. I agree with some parts. But, those who remain silent on road and are only commenting just always on internet on everything are the first in that list of foolish people. Just to correct you; Priyadarshini Mattoo was no elite women. Kindly study a bit and then write your comments. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > While one commends efforts to seek the truth about Soumya > Viswanathan's murder, I was struck by one line in this mail: > > > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > sort > > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > I wonder why it didn't mention Hemraj Banjade even as it did Arushi > Talwar. Weren't both murdered the same night, in the same house? I can > understand that we don't care about the poor being murdered, we don't > launch campaigns for them, we don't sit in TV studios and lecture the > world on justice, police, government. But in this case, surely, to > show our bias so blatantly as to mention only one of the two victims > of a "double murder" - this is rather foolish. As we go about seeking > justice for every middle class/elite woman killed, we must not leave > any signs that let the world guess that we don't care about the rest. > > Aditya, please note! > > best > shivam > > > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > > Forwarded Message by Achint Anand - Headlines Today > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > All of you are aware of the tragic passing away of our colleague Soumya > > Viswanathan. > > > > A promising young Producer, Soumya was loved by her seniors and peers, > and > > revered by her juniors. Soumya was murdered while driving back home from > > work after completing an unusually long shift at work, having stayed back > to > > help with her channel Headlines Today's coverage of the blasts in Gujarat > > and Maharashtra on the 29th of September, 2008. > > > > She was killed by a bullet to her head in the wee hours of Tuesday, the > 30th > > of September. > > > > We are waiting for the police to find the person (or people) who > committed > > this dastardly act. We are waiting for answers, as we struggle to come to > > terms with our dear friend's unfair death. > > > > But while we wait, we want to help the investigation. We want to do what > we > > can to do the only thing we can for Soumya – find the murderer, who is > still > > walking free. > > > > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > sort > > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > > > This note is to invite you to join the campaign. This is to request you > to > > lend your voice, lend whatever power you have, to help us in our > campaign. > > > > Come. Bring your friends. Bring whoever you think can help us. > > > > VENUE: The Press Club of India, Raisina Road, New Delhi > > DATE: 4th October 2008 > > TIME: 1.00pm > > > > From, > > > > Friends of Soumya Viswanathan > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 4 23:13:23 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 23:13:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810041036ge405001k6dea575d22eb42a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810030241n6df797cfj7938c43843c63a42@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810040928o3fb7fbb4ja096312a5ac4e82c@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810041008qd3a0bfft83da304325eaf3e4@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810041036ge405001k6dea575d22eb42a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810041043l4a3953b0u783e3fa2ee5b8c16@mail.gmail.com> Even Hemraj would have come under Lower Middle Class if we take the current scenario. It would have been great to see you at the prayer meeting today, Shivam. Hundreds of your journalist friends were there. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > I said "middle class/elite". Kindly study a bit and then write your > comments. > > Love > Shivam > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > True. I agree with some parts. But, those who remain silent on road and > are > > only commenting just always on internet on everything are the first in > that > > list of foolish people. > > Just to correct you; Priyadarshini Mattoo was no elite women. Kindly > study a > > bit and then write your comments. > > > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् < > mail at shivamvij.com>wrote: > > > >> While one commends efforts to seek the truth about Soumya > >> Viswanathan's murder, I was struck by one line in this mail: > >> > >> > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > >> sort > >> > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > >> > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > >> > >> I wonder why it didn't mention Hemraj Banjade even as it did Arushi > >> Talwar. Weren't both murdered the same night, in the same house? I can > >> understand that we don't care about the poor being murdered, we don't > >> launch campaigns for them, we don't sit in TV studios and lecture the > >> world on justice, police, government. But in this case, surely, to > >> show our bias so blatantly as to mention only one of the two victims > >> of a "double murder" - this is rather foolish. As we go about seeking > >> justice for every middle class/elite woman killed, we must not leave > >> any signs that let the world guess that we don't care about the rest. > >> > >> Aditya, please note! > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Forwarded Message by Achint Anand - Headlines Today > >> > > >> > ****************************************************************** > >> > > >> > All of you are aware of the tragic passing away of our colleague > Soumya > >> > Viswanathan. > >> > > >> > A promising young Producer, Soumya was loved by her seniors and peers, > >> and > >> > revered by her juniors. Soumya was murdered while driving back home > from > >> > work after completing an unusually long shift at work, having stayed > back > >> to > >> > help with her channel Headlines Today's coverage of the blasts in > Gujarat > >> > and Maharashtra on the 29th of September, 2008. > >> > > >> > She was killed by a bullet to her head in the wee hours of Tuesday, > the > >> 30th > >> > of September. > >> > > >> > We are waiting for the police to find the person (or people) who > >> committed > >> > this dastardly act. We are waiting for answers, as we struggle to come > to > >> > terms with our dear friend's unfair death. > >> > > >> > But while we wait, we want to help the investigation. We want to do > what > >> we > >> > can to do the only thing we can for Soumya – find the murderer, who is > >> still > >> > walking free. > >> > > >> > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > >> sort > >> > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > >> > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > >> > > >> > This note is to invite you to join the campaign. This is to request > you > >> to > >> > lend your voice, lend whatever power you have, to help us in our > >> campaign. > >> > > >> > Come. Bring your friends. Bring whoever you think can help us. > >> > > >> > VENUE: The Press Club of India, Raisina Road, New Delhi > >> > DATE: 4th October 2008 > >> > TIME: 1.00pm > >> > > >> > From, > >> > > >> > Friends of Soumya Viswanathan > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 03:10:13 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 03:10:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Journalist stabbed Message-ID: <6353c690810041440u189fb4edg338c9a3b0ce3d994@mail.gmail.com> *Journalist stabbed* New Delhi (PTI): A journalist working with a private television channel was on Saturday stabbed by unidentified persons and robbed him of his wallet and mobile phone in south Delhi, police said. Sourabh Mishra, working as a sports journalist with Zee News, was attacked by three unidentified persons who came in an autorickshaw, stabbed him and took his wallet and mobile phone in Andrews Ganj, they said. Mishra suffered bruises on his face and hand, they said. However, the robbers managed to escape from the scene, they said, adding that the injured has been admitted to a hospital, where his condition is stated to be stable. A case has been registered and a hunt is on to nab the culprits. On Tuesday, Soumya Vishwanathan, a 27-year-old producer with 'Headlines Today', was shot dead in her car in Vasant Kunj. Soumya, who was returning from her office, was found dead in her car which rammed into the divider of the road. From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 03:14:03 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:44:03 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com><48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7191BDD05F934B6CAA6B3FA07E24B425@shabori> I think the following I sent only to Nazneen. I am sincerely sorry for doing it. I should have been very careful considering that Nazneen does not want the list mails to be directed to her personal in box. I had no desire to do that, sheer carelessness. Well, this is what I accidently sent to Nazneen and not to the list earlier. Regards TaraPrakash Hi Nazo and all. Even though I am not Shuddha or Iram, I do not have their kind of knowledge or eloquence, but I could not help writing on this thread, so here is my unsolicited gibberish. I wonder if the Reader List provided any context for this article under discussion. There was a post recently on the list which mentioned Walter Benjamin and Adorno and in the same sentence suggested that some of the current movements are sectarian and parochial in nature. That may or may not be the context. Let us agree that Reader list need not provide any context for posting of messages. It is a well ventilated list, and I would like to thank Nazo for this fresh air. I thought the article under discussion was poking fun at the cynicism of the currently prevalent theories. If it was talking about gibberish, the write up was no better/worse than that; in other words, meta-gibberish. I wonder if there is anything in the world which cannot be called gibberish. It was, I thought, an example of, what I would like to call "counter cynicism". Marxism stands in stark contrast against the ephamerality of post modernism and other post * theories. If anybody thought Marxism was dead and gone after disintegration of the USSR was/is absolutely wrong. There still are Marxist thinkers/activists who believe "Dil na ummeed naheen nakaam hi to hai..." Only this week we saw, what a staunch Republican called, "putting of another coffin over the coffin of Reagan". Marxism may not have succeeded, capitalism too will not remain unbridled was the message of the recent bail out in the US. Reagan and Friedman have already died twice. They will die many more times before Fukuyama's history will begin again. I completely agree with Nazo's following statement/question. "Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable because one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, SC, Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc." Yes, that is the logic. All of us fall prey to such a logic and magic. Nazo, too, did when she said, "Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'?" All of us are "them" some time or the other, depending on what lenses we are using to look at, from which angle we are looking. If in no other way, we all are "them" in that we all feel free to express our opinions. I do not agree with Nazo's suggestion that Arti indulged in name calling in her response. ("but please tell me do calling (does) names serve any purpose?" That may be my limitation of not being able to find what is not there, or to be able to find even what is there. I think Arti never indulged in name calling in her response. I hear Nazo calling names though, literally, "Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra" et al. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nazneen Anand Shamsi" To: "Aarti Sethi" Cc: "Sarai" Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. > Dear Aarti, > > 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and > everyone > else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each > other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by what > they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only > because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your conceptual > understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially with > whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or > mills > and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both marx > and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have > responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled pseudo > post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or an > out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose > understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays one > reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that > because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and respect > your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but please > tell me do calling names serve any purpose? > > Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > because > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, > SC, > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I > assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk to > me > or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as a > 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you > tagged > me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these most > honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. > > 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really too > boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find all > earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most of > the > times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest work > boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on this > or > why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual capacity > find boring? > > 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you posted > this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up > and > down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I don't > think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and > down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though at > times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. > > 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on > the > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank > you > for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) > > By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list > Aarti? > Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I assume, > you > are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list > being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a > liar > when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared > public space where people from different persuasions can come and engage? > Do > you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or > many > of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain > preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be > arrogantly > snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have > demonstrated > 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) or > engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your > respected self but only as 'them'? > > I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared public > space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, and > no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' from > you. > > 5. ' gibberish about marx ' > > Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda Aarti. > Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn the > intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect this > sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. > > What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their > gibberish > about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' > gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the > meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized > pedagogy > often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. > > Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas > still > one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and > breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and language. > While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle of > hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a > market > for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many > begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. > > But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas that > many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is often > peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students who > want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such > 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. > > 6. 'Keep posting' > > I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a > pleasure writing to you Aarti. > > Will eagerly look forward for your response. > > In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! > > Warm regards > > Nazo > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > >> Dear Nazneen, >> >> I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked >> it. >> I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a >> generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when the >> world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets >> destabilized. >> I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being >> earnest >> is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the >> "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving flags, >> and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put >> it. >> This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've >> assogined yourself. >> >> Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the >> history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till then >> we >> will have to consider comments such as - >> >> Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university >>> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in >>> turn >>> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many >>> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read >>> just >>> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that >>> reader >>> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up networking, >>> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and that >>> elusive tenure! >>> >> >> >> - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing the >> sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as >> "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the faux >> ayyar persona you have made your own. >> >> I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) >> Warmly >> >> Aarti >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and >>> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of >>> formatting >>> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, >>> >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php >>> >>> ****************************** >>> >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php >>> >>> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic >>> fads >>> >>> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need >>> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] >>> >>> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the >>> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on >>> the >>> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, >>> but >>> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these >>> so-called >>> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, >>> and >>> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of >>> the >>> rise and fall of these fashions. >>> >>> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic >>> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an >>> article >>> or >>> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than >>> journals). >>> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the >>> true >>> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one >>> believes >>> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will >>> have >>> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because >>> most >>> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years >>> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible >>> even >>> as of 2002. >>> >>> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of articles >>> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles >>> that >>> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the data >>> on >>> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge >>> change >>> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- >>> then >>> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw >>> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp >>> our >>> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles being >>> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the >>> same >>> -- >>> a sustained decline must be real. >>> >>> Some thoughts: >>> >>> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- >>> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's >>> hard >>> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in >>> 2002, >>> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems to >>> be >>> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a >>> down-turn. >>> >>> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social >>> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to >>> fall >>> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time >>> frame >>> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. >>> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to >>> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s >>> an >>> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long >>> it >>> had been festering there. >>> >>> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model >>> for >>> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an exogenous >>> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that >>> had >>> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at the >>> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population >>> densities, >>> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we wandered >>> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued >>> us >>> for much longer than others. >>> >>> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of >>> noise, >>> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the vicissitudes >>> of >>> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made >>> an >>> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory Tower >>> for >>> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting >>> the >>> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the Berlin >>> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was >>> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its >>> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. >>> >>> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in >>> the >>> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own >>> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. >>> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion >>> others >>> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due to >>> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant >>> at >>> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. >>> >>> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is >>> wrong. >>> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough >>> that >>> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra >>> the >>> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, >>> though, >>> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of the >>> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and >>> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all that >>> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or >>> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers >>> since >>> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower >>> rate >>> in >>> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even >>> then >>> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of >>> depressing >>> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some point, >>> the >>> fuckers will get theirs. >>> >>> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in a >>> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent >>> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you >>> can't >>> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as >>> such -- >>> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in >>> grad >>> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good >>> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have >>> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole >>> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime >>> soon. >>> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and >>> social >>> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. >>> >>> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize >>> that >>> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles -- >>> or >>> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you wouldn't >>> be >>> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll >>> students >>> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among >>> current >>> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should >>> compare >>> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was >>> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure >>> they >>> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just >>> like >>> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in >>> reality, >>> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are >>> opting for greener pastures. >>> >>> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young >>> people >>> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable >>> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If >>> they >>> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is >>> still >>> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of >>> cooling >>> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a >>> less >>> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to >>> latch >>> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, this >>> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 >>> at >>> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among safe >>> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in >>> for >>> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point >>> (even >>> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't >>> even >>> born when Marxism had already started to die. >>> >>> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative >>> years >>> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the >>> mid-late >>> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out >>> from >>> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off >>> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly >>> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize >>> with >>> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an >>> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you >>> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby >>> Boomer >>> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since >>> their >>> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human >>> evolution >>> -- >>> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was >>> eager >>> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race >>> after >>> all. What a loser. >>> >>> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it >>> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before >>> then >>> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the >>> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 09:20:59 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 09:50:59 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Waiting for Schadenfreude Message-ID: "Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats ‹ the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries ‹ are taking us down with them." October 2, 2008, 10:02 PM Waiting for Schadenfreude Judith Warner (Judith Warner's book, "Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety", a New York Times best-seller, was published in February 2005.) A couple of years ago, at the height of the boom, a friend in New York publishing described to me the indignities of being a five-figure employee commuting daily from suburban New Jersey on trains packed with traders, stock brokers and hedge-fund types. ³These were the guys who, in college, I used to step over on Sunday mornings when they were lying in a pool of their own vomit,² he said. ³And now they¹re earning millions and millions ­ in bonuses alone.² The image, as you might imagine, stuck in my mind. For it summed up so well a certain kind of resentment and sense of injustice that a particular class of non-monied professionals in the New York area came to feel sometime in the late 1990s. The feeling of injustice wasn¹t just about money, though it was partly about being more than solidly middle class and still struggling to pay the bills, as New York writer Vince Passaro captured so well in his ³Reflections on the Art of Going Broke² (³Who¹ll Stop the Drain?²) in Harper¹s in 1998. It was, rather, about a sense that the wrong people had inherited the earth. They had taken over everything. Their salaries (and bonuses in particular) had pushed real estate costs and living expenses sky-high. Their values had permeated every aspect of life. And their choices seemed to have become the only acceptable ‹ even viable ‹ ones possible. In the 1970s, even in New York, it had been financially possible for a middle class family to survive if parents ‹ even one parent ‹ built a professional life around something other than purely making money. In the 1980s ‹ even in the ³greed is good² (which was of course meant to be a damning phrase) 1980s ‹ it seemed respectable, honorable and, dare I say, valuable to do things other than make a lot of money. But by the late 1990s, in New York, if you weren¹t in the financial industry, it was hard to survive. And so it went, in a more general way, throughout the country, in the whole winner-take-all-era ushered in by the boom years of the late 1990s. The model for success narrowed. The goal posts marking success grew more out of reach. For all the people who did something with their lives other than doggedly, single-mindedly ‹ and successfully ‹ pursuing wealth (³You mean, some people¹s jobs are just about making money?² Julia once asked me in the course of one of our ³What the World is About² conversations), life got harder and scarier and more confusing. Many of us who¹d proudly decided, in our twenties, to pursue edifying or creative, or ³helping² professions, woke up to realize, once we had families, that we¹d perhaps been irresponsible. We couldn¹t save for college. We could barely save for retirement. If we set up a ³family-friendly² lifestyle, we threw our financial futures down the drain. So, like just about everyone, we worked hard and treaded water, but felt we were entitled to do better than that. And if we lived in the New York area, or another similarly wealthy area where the spoils of the new Gilded Age were constantly thrust in our faces, we felt, like my friend on the train, a little something more: we knew that we were losers. (³The Big L,² a friend, an art school grad turned design consultant, declared last week, calling me in tears after her stockbroker told her how little she cared about her modest portfolio. ³Why not just brand it right on my forehead and be done with it?²) This financial crisis is supposed to be a big moment of reckoning. ³666-Mark of the Beast² and ³Root of all Evil² the End-of-World Web sites are shouting, quoting prominent economists on the demise of the American banking system. ³Wall Street, R.I.P.², a headline in The Times proclaimed last weekend. ³The Master of the Universe Era is over,² New York magazine chimed in. For those of us who have hated this period ‹ the wealth worship, the wealth gap, the elevation of everything suspiciously shiny and irrationally bubbly and stupidly ebullient, there should be some feeling of vindication. But it just isn¹t coming. A great emptiness ‹ and a gnawing kind of fear ‹ has taken its place. After 9/11, psychologists said that the tragedy and trauma would magnify whatever emotional state people were already experiencing. Depressed people would become much more depressed. Anxious people would become much more anxious. The current financial crisis has, I think, proven to be a similar sort of emotional Rorschach test. People who felt impotent feel even more powerless. Those who felt lied to see new levels of conspiracy. Demagogues are engaging in even more demagoguery. And those of us who felt, well, like losers, are feeling like even bigger losers, as we shove our unopened 401K or (if we¹re double-loser freelancers) SEP-IRA statements into bottom desk drawers and wait for a cathartic burst of schadenfreude that simply refuses to come. Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats ‹ the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries ‹ are taking us down with them. The very wealthiest are, as always, likely to do just fine. Real, hard-core Wall Street, as Tom Wolfe reminded us last weekend, long ago decamped for the hedge funds of Greenwich. The political leaders who allowed this mess to develop have turned into the great defenders of ³Main Street.² (If I have to hear the juxtaposition of ³Main Street² and ³Wall Street² one more time, I will be the one drowning in a pool of vomit.). It¹s a whole host of other people ‹ vulnerable middle class homeowners and small business owners and, now, universities unable to make payroll ‹ who are hurting. I called my friend in publishing yesterday to ask him how things were going on the train. ³There¹s a lot of rueful chuckling. There¹s a lot of talk about riding this out, about maintaining,² is all he had to say. It was 23 years ago that Tom Wolfe introduced us to the Masters of the Universe. They were curiosities then ‹ remote, very rich, and decidedly not like you and me. But now, the world of Wall Street has become our world; there is no outside to it, there is no other option than to pay and play. Our fortunes rise and fall together to a degree like never before, and our values are enmeshed like never before. The language of Wall Street ‹ of cost-cutting and efficiency, self-interest, using each situation to maximize profit, is the language of everyday life and social interaction. We¹re all losers now. There¹s no pleasure to it. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 13:07:34 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:37:34 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us Message-ID: ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Others Among Us By Suroor Mander 04 October, 2008 Countercurrents.org I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with us. What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class citizens. Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by fundamentalists from their community. We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have to. We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our hearts feel. Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. From itsnishant at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 13:55:08 2008 From: itsnishant at gmail.com (Nishant Shah) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:55:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Centre for Internet and Society's Researchers At Work Programme - Histories of the internets in India Message-ID: Dear All, It is with the greatest pleasure that we announce the launch of The Centre for Internet and Society's Research Portfolio and the beginning of its flagship programme Researchers At Work (CIS-RAW) . The CIS-RAW encourages innovative ideas and perspectives that emerge from dialogue and exchange, structured around a theme that changes every 2 years. The Theme for its first two years is "The Histories of the internets in India". The CIS-RAW is targeted at scholars, practitioners, theoreticians and thinkers willing to engage with the specific themes that CIS is immediately interested in and offers full financial support towards quantified academic and intellectual productions. Here is a list of FAQ for the CIS-RAW programme (It can also be accessed at http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw *What is the CIS-RAW?* The CIS-RAW stands for Researchers at Work, a multidisciplinary research initiative by the Centre for Internet and Society, Bangalore. The CIS firmly believes that in order to understand the contemporary concerns in the field of Internet and Society, it is necessary to produce local and contextual accounts of the interaction between different internets and the socio-cultural and geo-political structures. The CIS-RAW programme hopes to produce one of the first documentations on the transactions and negotiations, relationships and correlations that the emergence of internet technologies has resulted in, specifically in the South. The CIS-RAW programme recognises 'The Histories of Internets and India' as its focus for the first two years. This particular thematic was envisioned because though many disciplines, organisations and interventions in various areas deal with the internet technologies, there has been very little work in documenting the polymorphous growth of the internet technologies and their relationship with the society in India. The existing narratives of the internet are often riddled with absences or only focus on the mainstream interests of the major stakeholders like the State and the corporate. We find it imperative to excavate the three decade histories of the internets to understand the concerns and questions in the field in the contemporary times. *How does The CIS-RAW programme work?* In its first two years, CIS-RAW is interested in working with theoreticians, scholars, practitioners and interventionists who have had a stake and experience in researching the field of Internet and Society. We are looking at a model of collaboration where different individuals and/or organisations are invited to come up with proposals for constructing historical and contextual accounts of the internets in India, from their own perspective and interests. *What is the role of CIS in the CIS-RAW programme?* The Centre for Internet and Society sees itself as involved in research in many different ways. We would of course be involved in providing critical input, ideas and comments to the original proposals by the different collaborators. We will also be, depending upon the individual expertise at the CIS, providing research and intellectual infrastructure required for several projects. However, we do not believe in doing everything ourselves. One of the pivotal roles that we see ourselves playing is that of an enabler. Through financial support, through establishing networks, through physical and intellectual infrastructure, the CIS hopes to enable multidisciplinary and unique research that inaugurates the field of Internet and Society in India. CIS also believes in a longer commitment to the CIS-RAW projects beyond the scope of the immediate research. We shall also be committed to disseminating the findings and the information contained in each individual project through public media like blogs and newspapers, and also through publishing of the individual projects as approach papers, journal articles and curricula designing in various peer-reviewed and respectable academic spaces. *What are the responsibilities of a CIS-RAW researcher?* The CIS quantifies the research responsibility of a CIS-RAW researcher in consultation with them, based on their individual expertise, interests and skills. Different projects, depending upon the object that is being analysed, lend themselves to different processes of documentation and historiography. Hence, each individual project will have the scope to define the methods by which the researcher wants to work and the modes of documentation. We believe in multidisciplinary and innovative forms of methods and documentation as critical to creative thought and would encourage that in all our research programmes. However, each research project will be committed to producing the following minimum research outputs: 1. An approach paper that charts in detail, the larger scope of the field with analysis and information (approximately 50 – 60 pages with additional appendices and annexures). 2. A working paper that can appear in a scholarly journal; the working paper is a condensed and more precise version of the approach paper. (approximately 5,000 – 7,000 words including references and footnotes) 3. Contribution to our various media forms like blogs, newspapers, curricula design etc. depending upon the scope of the project. 4. A detailed annotated bibliography and resource list to build our library and information archives. 5. A commitment to peer review, public outreach and engagement with the CIS networks defined in consultation with the researchers. *What is the nature of financial support that the CIS-RAW programme offers?* Currently, we do not have a specified budget for the CIS-RAW researches. Depending upon the scope of the project and the skills of the researchers, a budget is arrived at by mutual agreement. We follow precedent when costing projects in different sectors but are sensitive to the varied needs of different projects and the research costs involved. *Does the CIS-RAW programme have a fixed time-line?* We see the CIS-RAW projects as spanning 6-9 months, leading to the producing of quantifiable research outputs. However, we also look upon the CIS-RAW projects as works in progress. Moreover, there are no fixed beginning and termination time-lines for the CIS-RAW programme itself. New ideas and innovative approaches to the field of Internet and Society are always welcome to come and find us and we can initiate the project based on further conversations. *Do I get to work in your office if I am a CIS-RAW researcher?* The Centre for Internet and Society has its offices, currently, in Bangalore. If you are based out of Bangalore or outside of Bangalore (or relocating to Bangalore for the scope of the project), we would be more than happy to offer you office space and research infrastructure that might be required for your research, including research equipment and your own space in the office. *I have an idea but it is more about an activity rather than research…* We, at the Centre for Internet and Society, believe that research happens in many forms – through theoretical apparatus, through philosophical debates, through proactive interventions and through dialogue and exchange of ideas and information. We like to think of Research as a broad umbrella term to encompass many different activities. However, we also believe that any project deserves (and indeed, needs) a contextualisation and historicisation document which helps more clarity about the aim, the scope and the relevance of the project. We offer the CIS-RAW programme as a space to think of these various histories and contexts and thus offer resources and infrastructure for projects which might eventually take a life of their own beyond the CIS-RAW programme. If you have an idea of a new field of inquiry, or a more active intervention oriented project, and if it fits within the scope of our interests and measures against our vision statement, we would be happy to collaborate with you over the idea in its initial state and hopefully help with more resources and administration. You might also be interested in looking at our Advocacy Programmes for more information. *I have a research idea which does not fit your theme. Would you still be interested?* All of us at CIS are always excited about new research questions and ideas. Even if you have something in mind that doesn't fit anything that we might have documented on this website, please feel free to approach us with the idea. As a young and growing centre, we see ourselves as much in the learning mode as we imagine ourselves as in the enabling mode. To learn, through dialogues and exchange, is our motto and we have the fortunate flexibility of resource allocation to engage in projects which might have been outside of our earlier visions or imaginations. In other words, if you have an idea, please buzz us or walk in to our offices. We promise really good coffee and hopefully interesting conversations. *Are there any other forms of research outside the CIS-RAW programme?* The CIS engages in many different kinds of research programmes that cover a wide spectrum of areas and a huge galaxy of modalities. For more information you might want to look at the other programmes available under the Researchand Advocacy Portfolios. *I don't have research experience but I am interested in the CIS-RAW programme…* The CIS-RAW, as a programme, is focussed specifically on individuals or organisations which have already been in the field of Internet and Society or related areas. It is designed to document the existing knowledges with new perspectives and frameworks, which are not available as a useful resource right now due to lack of such an initiative. However, we are also committed to looking at younger researchers in the field and have many interesting ways of collaborating – through teaching, workshops, projects, internships, etc. We also have interest in creating inclusive pedagogic practices and would love the opportunity to exchange thoughts and ideas with you. Just write to us or walk into our office and we can take things from there. If you are looking at involving yourself with CIS, you might want to have a look at our Advocacy Portfolio which is always looking for motivated volunteers who are ready to learn, intervene and make a contribution in the fields that we are concerned with. You can also look at the other programmes in the Research Portfolioto see if we might have something that caters to you. *Are you looking at more international research involving comparative studies across countries?* The Centre for Internet and Society considers itself an international research centre based in India, with a particular interest in South-South exchange and dialogue. We are certainly interested in opportunities of collaboration, exchange and engagement with researchers from other contexts or researchers in India who have larger cross-boundary projects in mind. However, for the CIS-RAW programme, we are focusing largely on India and its contexts. If you have a much larger project in mind, you might be interested in our Project Inception GrantsProgramme. *For more information on the specific theme of the Histories of the internets in India, please read here:* http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet We welcome all ideas, conversations or programmes that the people on this mailing list might be interested in. Please contact us either on phone or via email (If you have specific queries about collaboration, please email us in person so that we can spare the list some traffic), or if you are going to be in Bangalore, just drop in to our office. Warmly Nishant P.S. Posting it on several lists, apologies if you get it several times! -- Nishant Shah Doctoral Candidate, CSCS, Bangalore. Director (Research), Centre for Internet and Society,( www.cis-india.org ) Asia Awards Fellow, 2008-09 # 0-9740074884 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 14:44:56 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:14:56 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Rescue the Rescue by Friedman Message-ID: HI Tara Just finished reading your text. It's quite eerie how both both James McDonald and Matt Taibbi have zeroed in on Friedman's "Cinnabon" as a target for irritation. Friedman has a thing for fast food and theory. He famously said two countries that both had McDonalds would never go to war with each other. Guess again... http://www.siberianlight.net/2008/09/16/russia-georgia-mcdonalds-theory-of-war/ > From: "TaraPrakash" > Hi all and Naeem. > Thanks for this wonderful post responding to Friedman's false claim that the > world has become flat. Someone on a blog entry said that the world is flat > as Friedman's head is flat. > I wrote a detailed critique of the book in the backdrop of the name change > farce from Bangalor to Bangaluru. Both always existed, Friedman could see > the former; Bangluru, the native Kanadigas are feeling left out in the > "flattened world" is ready to assert. > Let me see if I can fish the entire paper out for the list. Till then, here > is an excerpt > > > The Bangalore he describes in his book has nothing intrinsically Bangalorish > about it. In his narrative, he plays at the golf courses, attends meetings > in five-star hotels and western-looking multi-storey office complexes. > Friedman's Bangalore is a debangalorized, deterritorialized, delocalized > Bangalore, which can be found in any city of America. About this Bangalore, > Friedman says in The World is Flat, "No, this definitely wasn't Kansas. It > didn't even seem like India." He further asks, "Was this the New World, the > Old World, or the Next World?" (Friedman 13) The answer perhaps should be > the third one. Whereas "the old world", for Friedman, represents India, not > developed and, due to poor infrastructure, not easily accessible to all, > "the new world" represents very well developed American cities with very > restricted access to outsiders. "The next world" perhaps can be said to > exist anywhere, anytime. It is not constrained by any place or time, and > Friedman thinks, is open to all. As self-styled discoverer of this new > world, Friedman has absolute right to compare himself with Columbus, and he > makes full use of the opportunity by doing so at the very outset of his > scripture. > > An avid student of history, even though one does not have to be so to know > this, surely knows that explorers like Columbus, in order to motivate > royalty and aristocrats to support their further voyages, did inflate their > successes by means of concocting fabulous and misleading yarns about the > discovered places, with one fundamental moral: the place promises > prosperity, you must invest in it. Columbus did sell to some European > aristocrats the idea of concentrating on the new world he discovered, for > economic prosperity; Friedman seems to be doing the same in a different > context. His motive is to give a favorable publicity to Bangalore, so that > people from out of Bangalore do not mind shifting to this new world. > > After reading his book (which in addition to other epithets, calls > Bangalore, "the Silicon Valley of India",), if one, ignorant about the real > Silicon Valley, decides to move to Friedman's Bangalore, as Indians from > various parts of the country are doing for employment, one will find a very > squalid picture of the real Silicon Valley. The Silicon Valley, for him, > will have dirty, narrow, polluted roads with lots of potholes, with traffic > hardly moving on them. On the other hand if a resident of America visits the > real Silicon Valley to have a feel of Bangalore, he will find Bangalore a > sophisticated city with very well developed infrastructure. He won't mind > relocating to the city his boss wants him to, to manage the back office of > his firm. Firms in the U.S. increasingly want their employees to relocate to > Bangalore so that the management of those firms remains in "trained, > trustworthy" hands. This trend is likely to intensify with the time. Such a > "feel good factor" offered by Friedman helps to convince a reluctant > American employee to move to Bangalore. Friedman is really so much like > Columbus, when it comes to exaggeration about the newly discovered > territory. > > However, there is one fundamental difference between Columbus and Friedman > as explorers. Whereas Columbus's faulty calculations about the earth led him > to a new scientific discovery that the earth is round, Friedman's incorrect > calculations about the new world led him to an incorrect economic discovery > that the world is flat. This discovery is based more on faith than reason, > therefore, requires a religious zeal to be believed. > > But then there are heretics who challenge Friedman's sermons on > Globalization. Friedman, evidently, has not been successful in selling his > theory of "the world is flat" to many nonbelievers. He has been criticized > by various globalist writers. But more interestingly, he has earned a > significant amount of bad publicity even in the blog literature. It is > notable to read the following poem "On first looking into Friedman's > Flathead" by James D. Macdonald > > Criticizing Friedman's romantic ideas about Globalization, composed in the > fashion of one of the romantic poets, John Keats. The reference, in the > context of Friedman, to Don Juan and Jose Canseco, perhaps symbolizing > villainy, mendacity and dishonesty undermining the flat, level playing > field, are very remarkable. Here, interestingly, the poet is using for his > heresy, the same medium, communication technology, which, in the first > place, made the religion of Globalization possible, and the same as the > auspex used for disseminating his prophesy of Globalization to the world. > > Much have I travell'd in a chartered jet > And munched betimes upon a Cinnabon; > Upon my iPod listened to Don Juan > Which I downloaded from the wireless 'Net'. > I did not understand the 'Nineties lore > Of Windows systems and of Pizza Hut, > How one was opened and the other shut, > Till I heard Friedman speak in metaphor. > Then felt I like a steroid in a vein: > Jose Canseco on a level field, > Whose random thoughts of glory and of pain > Were like an ice-cream sundae all congealed. > The moral is, when put by words in train, > That which does not exist can't be revealed. From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 15:10:13 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:40:13 +0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. In-Reply-To: <7191BDD05F934B6CAA6B3FA07E24B425@shabori> References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> <7191BDD05F934B6CAA6B3FA07E24B425@shabori> Message-ID: <5af37bb0810050240k92d40f6r423c34eab8554ef3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Nazo Fads are what they are. but how do you separate wheat from the chaff. You hint at doing this in one para, but leave it to Popper: "Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas still one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and language. While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle of hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a market for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance." ...but it sounds as if you have already given up in favour of chaff and even the wheat seems useless now. I would like to see the intellectual history of wheat including such tid bits as social security and national policies providing roti if not a stimulus for a more equitable society. Rice will also do with less condoleeza. best yasir On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 1:44 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > I think the following I sent only to Nazneen. I am sincerely sorry for > doing > it. I should have been very careful considering that Nazneen does not want > the list mails to be directed to her personal in box. I had no desire to do > that, sheer carelessness. Well, this is what I accidently sent to Nazneen > and not to the list earlier. > Regards > TaraPrakash > > Hi Nazo and all. Even though I am not Shuddha or Iram, I do not have their > kind of knowledge or eloquence, but I could not help writing on this > thread, > so here is my unsolicited gibberish. > > I wonder if the Reader List provided any context for this article under > discussion. There was a post recently on the list which mentioned Walter > Benjamin and Adorno and in the same sentence suggested that some of the > current movements are sectarian and parochial in nature. That may or may > not > be the context. Let us agree that Reader list need not provide any context > for posting of messages. It is a well ventilated list, and I would like to > thank Nazo for this fresh air. > > I thought the article under discussion was poking fun at the cynicism of > the > currently prevalent theories. If it was talking about gibberish, the write > up was no better/worse than that; in other words, meta-gibberish. I wonder > if there is anything in the world which cannot be called gibberish. > It was, I thought, an example of, what I would like to call "counter > cynicism". Marxism stands in stark contrast against the ephamerality of > post > modernism and other post * theories. If anybody thought Marxism was dead > and > gone after disintegration of the USSR was/is absolutely wrong. > There still are Marxist thinkers/activists who believe > > "Dil na ummeed naheen nakaam hi to hai..." > > > Only this week we saw, what a staunch Republican called, "putting of > another > coffin over the coffin of Reagan". Marxism may not have succeeded, > capitalism too will not remain unbridled was the message of the recent bail > out in the US. Reagan and Friedman have already died twice. They will die > many more times before Fukuyama's history will begin again. > > I completely agree with Nazo's following statement/question. > > "Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > because > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, SC, > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc." > > Yes, that is the logic. All of us fall prey to such a logic and magic. > Nazo, > too, did when she said, "Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra > 'them'?" All of us are "them" some time or the other, depending on what > lenses we are using to look at, from which angle we are looking. If in no > other way, we all are "them" in that we all feel free to express our > opinions. > > I do not agree with Nazo's suggestion that Arti indulged in name calling in > her response. ("but please tell me do calling (does) names serve any > purpose?" > > That may be my limitation of not being able to find what is not there, or > to > be able to find even what is there. I think Arti never indulged in name > calling in her response. I hear Nazo calling names though, literally, > "Pawan, > Aditya, Kshemendra" et al. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nazneen Anand Shamsi" > To: "Aarti Sethi" > Cc: "Sarai" > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:19 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and > > everyone > > else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each > > other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by what > > they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only > > because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your conceptual > > understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially with > > whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or > > mills > > and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both marx > > and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have > > responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled > pseudo > > post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or an > > out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose > > understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays > one > > reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that > > because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and > respect > > your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but > please > > tell me do calling names serve any purpose? > > > > Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an > abstraction. > > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > > because > > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, > > SC, > > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I > > assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk to > > me > > or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as a > > 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you > > tagged > > me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these most > > honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. > > > > 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really too > > boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find all > > earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most of > > the > > times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest work > > boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on this > > or > > why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual capacity > > find boring? > > > > 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you > posted > > this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up > > and > > down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I > don't > > think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and > > down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though > at > > times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. > > > > 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on > > the > > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank > > you > > for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) > > > > By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list > > Aarti? > > Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I assume, > > you > > are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list > > being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a > > liar > > when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared > > public space where people from different persuasions can come and engage? > > Do > > you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or > > many > > of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain > > preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be > > arrogantly > > snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have > > demonstrated > > 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) > or > > engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your > > respected self but only as 'them'? > > > > I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared public > > space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, > and > > no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' > from > > you. > > > > 5. ' gibberish about marx ' > > > > Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda Aarti. > > Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn the > > intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect > this > > sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. > > > > What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their > > gibberish > > about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' > > gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the > > meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized > > pedagogy > > often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. > > > > Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas > > still > > one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and > > breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and > language. > > While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle > of > > hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a > > market > > for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many > > begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. > > > > But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas > that > > many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is > often > > peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students who > > want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such > > 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. > > > > 6. 'Keep posting' > > > > I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a > > pleasure writing to you Aarti. > > > > Will eagerly look forward for your response. > > > > In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! > > > > Warm regards > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote: > > > >> Dear Nazneen, > >> > >> I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked > >> it. > >> I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a > >> generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when > the > >> world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets > >> destabilized. > >> I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being > >> earnest > >> is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the > >> "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving > flags, > >> and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put > >> it. > >> This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've > >> assogined yourself. > >> > >> Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the > >> history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till > then > >> we > >> will have to consider comments such as - > >> > >> Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university > >>> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in > >>> turn > >>> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many > >>> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read > >>> just > >>> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that > >>> reader > >>> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up > networking, > >>> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and > that > >>> elusive tenure! > >>> > >> > >> > >> - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing > the > >> sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as > >> "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the > faux > >> ayyar persona you have made your own. > >> > >> I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) > >> Warmly > >> > >> Aarti > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and > >>> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of > >>> formatting > >>> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, > >>> > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >>> > >>> ****************************** > >>> > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >>> > >>> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid > academic > >>> fads > >>> > >>> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need > >>> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] > >>> > >>> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the > >>> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on > >>> the > >>> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, > >>> but > >>> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these > >>> so-called > >>> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, > >>> and > >>> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of > >>> the > >>> rise and fall of these fashions. > >>> > >>> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic > >>> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an > >>> article > >>> or > >>> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than > >>> journals). > >>> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the > >>> true > >>> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one > >>> believes > >>> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will > >>> have > >>> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because > >>> most > >>> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years > >>> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible > >>> even > >>> as of 2002. > >>> > >>> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of > articles > >>> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles > >>> that > >>> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the > data > >>> on > >>> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge > >>> change > >>> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- > >>> then > >>> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw > >>> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp > >>> our > >>> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles > being > >>> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the > >>> same > >>> -- > >>> a sustained decline must be real. > >>> > >>> Some thoughts: > >>> > >>> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- > >>> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's > >>> hard > >>> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in > >>> 2002, > >>> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems > to > >>> be > >>> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a > >>> down-turn. > >>> > >>> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social > >>> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to > >>> fall > >>> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time > >>> frame > >>> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. > >>> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to > >>> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s > >>> an > >>> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long > >>> it > >>> had been festering there. > >>> > >>> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model > >>> for > >>> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an > exogenous > >>> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that > >>> had > >>> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at > the > >>> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population > >>> densities, > >>> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we > wandered > >>> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued > >>> us > >>> for much longer than others. > >>> > >>> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of > >>> noise, > >>> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the > vicissitudes > >>> of > >>> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made > >>> an > >>> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory > Tower > >>> for > >>> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting > >>> the > >>> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the > Berlin > >>> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was > >>> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its > >>> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. > >>> > >>> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in > >>> the > >>> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own > >>> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. > >>> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion > >>> others > >>> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due > to > >>> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant > >>> at > >>> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. > >>> > >>> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is > >>> wrong. > >>> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough > >>> that > >>> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra > >>> the > >>> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, > >>> though, > >>> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of > the > >>> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and > >>> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all > that > >>> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or > >>> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers > >>> since > >>> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower > >>> rate > >>> in > >>> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even > >>> then > >>> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of > >>> depressing > >>> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some > point, > >>> the > >>> fuckers will get theirs. > >>> > >>> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in > a > >>> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent > >>> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you > >>> can't > >>> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as > >>> such -- > >>> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in > >>> grad > >>> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good > >>> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have > >>> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole > >>> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime > >>> soon. > >>> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and > >>> social > >>> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. > >>> > >>> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize > >>> that > >>> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles > -- > >>> or > >>> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you > wouldn't > >>> be > >>> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll > >>> students > >>> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among > >>> current > >>> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should > >>> compare > >>> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was > >>> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure > >>> they > >>> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just > >>> like > >>> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in > >>> reality, > >>> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are > >>> opting for greener pastures. > >>> > >>> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young > >>> people > >>> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable > >>> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If > >>> they > >>> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is > >>> still > >>> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of > >>> cooling > >>> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a > >>> less > >>> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to > >>> latch > >>> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, > this > >>> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 > >>> at > >>> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among > safe > >>> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in > >>> for > >>> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point > >>> (even > >>> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't > >>> even > >>> born when Marxism had already started to die. > >>> > >>> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative > >>> years > >>> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the > >>> mid-late > >>> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out > >>> from > >>> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off > >>> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly > >>> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize > >>> with > >>> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an > >>> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you > >>> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby > >>> Boomer > >>> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since > >>> their > >>> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human > >>> evolution > >>> -- > >>> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was > >>> eager > >>> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race > >>> after > >>> all. What a loser. > >>> > >>> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it > >>> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before > >>> then > >>> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the > >>> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 16:13:17 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:13:17 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Contents of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 18- India- others amongst us.? Message-ID: <178636.47451.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> After reading this post I could not but feel like lauging at the very idea of "others" amongst is. In India there are no others amongst us, both hindus and muslims are having tough time to reconcile with the thought of others, as media feeds on human miseries, day in day out, journalists make it a point to misinformation and feed on "others" amongst us, the divisive politics of all political parties are feeding on the theory of "others" amonst us, and the word secular is not in practice at any walk of life. A famous muslim wants her fourth home in a building that she likes, in a town she likes, at a price she wants as she is accustomed to getting what she wants by being "others". She forgets all the juggi and slumdwellers once she becomes a MP, forgets the cause of working for the slum dwellers as she is busy manipulating the political parties for the next term in rajya sabha.    More importantly, the media has forgotten the past so quickly that the  event of mid fifties, when India was having wheat shortage, America gave aid in wheat, the aid then became a soft loan, PL 48o. It was misused by the then governance to create law and order issues in kerala to dismiss a democratically elected government of EMS namboodripad, the issue being it was left party ruled state, democratically elected. then, visionary leader was the Pm of the nation, Nehru. Declassified archives of America reveal  how the then Home minister, S K Patil had a role in misuse of the funds to boot out the elected governance. This is the flash back, now just look around what is happening in India, after N-deal, with billions of trade and some more billions in kickbacks, the rulers have new game in force, as supreme court judgement in Bommai Case does not allow use of art,356 that easily, so now the use of art.355.   Yet the citizens do not understand the role of media which is busy with hailing the PM for his vision of the PM and non-functional home minister, who has to be pro-active n booting out the terror, whoever indulges in it. But vote bank politics is such that all parties political, are keen to encash the vote banks. Regards. ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 5 October, 2008 2:45:03 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 18 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. FINANCE: Waiting for Schadenfreude (Naeem Mohaiemen)   2. INDIA: Others Among Us (Naeem Mohaiemen)   3. Centre for Internet and Society's Researchers At Work       Programme - Histories of the internets in India (Nishant Shah)   4. Re: Rescue the Rescue by Friedman (Naeem Mohaiemen) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 09:50:59 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Waiting for Schadenfreude To: "Sarai Reader List" Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" "Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats ‹ the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries ‹ are taking us down with them." October 2, 2008, 10:02 PM Waiting for Schadenfreude Judith Warner (Judith Warner's book, "Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety", a New York Times best-seller, was published in February 2005.) A couple of years ago, at the height of the boom, a friend in New York publishing described to me the indignities of being a five-figure employee commuting daily from suburban New Jersey on trains packed with traders, stock brokers and hedge-fund types. ³These were the guys who, in college, I used to step over on Sunday mornings when they were lying in a pool of their own vomit,² he said. ³And now they¹re earning millions and millions ­ in bonuses alone.² The image, as you might imagine, stuck in my mind. For it summed up so well a certain kind of resentment and sense of injustice that a particular class of non-monied professionals in the New York area came to feel sometime in the late 1990s. The feeling of injustice wasn¹t just about money, though it was partly about being more than solidly middle class and still struggling to pay the bills, as New York writer Vince Passaro captured so well in his ³Reflections on the Art of Going Broke² (³Who¹ll Stop the Drain?²) in Harper¹s in 1998. It was, rather, about a sense that the wrong people had inherited the earth. They had taken over everything. Their salaries (and bonuses in particular) had pushed real estate costs and living expenses sky-high. Their values had permeated every aspect of life. And their choices seemed to have become the only acceptable ‹ even viable ‹ ones possible. In the 1970s, even in New York, it had been financially possible for a middle class family to survive if parents ‹ even one parent ‹ built a professional life around something other than purely making money. In the 1980s ‹ even in the ³greed is good² (which was of course meant to be a damning phrase) 1980s ‹ it seemed respectable, honorable and, dare I say, valuable to do things other than make a lot of money. But by the late 1990s, in New York, if you weren¹t in the financial industry, it was hard to survive. And so it went, in a more general way, throughout the country, in the whole winner-take-all-era ushered in by the boom years of the late 1990s. The model for success narrowed. The goal posts marking success grew more out of reach. For all the people who did something with their lives other than doggedly, single-mindedly ‹ and successfully ‹ pursuing wealth (³You mean, some people¹s jobs are just about making money?² Julia once asked me in the course of one of our ³What the World is About² conversations), life got harder and scarier and more confusing. Many of us who¹d proudly decided, in our twenties, to pursue edifying or creative, or ³helping² professions, woke up to realize, once we had families, that we¹d perhaps been irresponsible. We couldn¹t save for college. We could barely save for retirement. If we set up a ³family-friendly² lifestyle, we threw our financial futures down the drain. So, like just about everyone, we worked hard and treaded water, but felt we were entitled to do better than that. And if we lived in the New York area, or another similarly wealthy area where the spoils of the new Gilded Age were constantly thrust in our faces, we felt, like my friend on the train, a little something more: we knew that we were losers. (³The Big L,² a friend, an art school grad turned design consultant, declared last week, calling me in tears after her stockbroker told her how little she cared about her modest portfolio. ³Why not just brand it right on my forehead and be done with it?²) This financial crisis is supposed to be a big moment of reckoning. ³666-Mark of the Beast² and ³Root of all Evil² the End-of-World Web sites are shouting, quoting prominent economists on the demise of the American banking system. ³Wall Street, R.I.P.², a headline in The Times proclaimed last weekend. ³The Master of the Universe Era is over,² New York magazine chimed in. For those of us who have hated this period ‹ the wealth worship, the wealth gap, the elevation of everything suspiciously shiny and irrationally bubbly and stupidly ebullient, there should be some feeling of vindication. But it just isn¹t coming. A great emptiness ‹ and a gnawing kind of fear ‹ has taken its place. After 9/11, psychologists said that the tragedy and trauma would magnify whatever emotional state people were already experiencing. Depressed people would become much more depressed. Anxious people would become much more anxious. The current financial crisis has, I think, proven to be a similar sort of emotional Rorschach test. People who felt impotent feel even more powerless. Those who felt lied to see new levels of conspiracy. Demagogues are engaging in even more demagoguery. And those of us who felt, well, like losers, are feeling like even bigger losers, as we shove our unopened 401K or (if we¹re double-loser freelancers) SEP-IRA statements into bottom desk drawers and wait for a cathartic burst of schadenfreude that simply refuses to come. Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats ‹ the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries ‹ are taking us down with them. The very wealthiest are, as always, likely to do just fine. Real, hard-core Wall Street, as Tom Wolfe reminded us last weekend, long ago decamped for the hedge funds of Greenwich. The political leaders who allowed this mess to develop have turned into the great defenders of ³Main Street.² (If I have to hear the juxtaposition of ³Main Street² and ³Wall Street² one more time, I will be the one drowning in a pool of vomit.). It¹s a whole host of other people ‹ vulnerable middle class homeowners and small business owners and, now, universities unable to make payroll ‹ who are hurting. I called my friend in publishing yesterday to ask him how things were going on the train. ³There¹s a lot of rueful chuckling. There¹s a lot of talk about riding this out, about maintaining,² is all he had to say. It was 23 years ago that Tom Wolfe introduced us to the Masters of the Universe. They were curiosities then ‹ remote, very rich, and decidedly not like you and me. But now, the world of Wall Street has become our world; there is no outside to it, there is no other option than to pay and play. Our fortunes rise and fall together to a degree like never before, and our values are enmeshed like never before. The language of Wall Street ‹ of cost-cutting and efficiency, self-interest, using each situation to maximize profit, is the language of everyday life and social interaction. We¹re all losers now. There¹s no pleasure to it. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:37:34 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us To: "Sarai Reader List" Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Others Among Us By Suroor Mander 04 October, 2008 Countercurrents.org I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with us. What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class citizens. Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by fundamentalists from their community. We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have to. We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our hearts feel. Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:55:08 +0530 From: "Nishant Shah" Subject: [Reader-list] Centre for Internet and Society's Researchers     At Work    Programme - Histories of the internets in India To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Dear All, It is with the greatest pleasure that we announce the launch of The Centre for Internet and Society's Research Portfolio and the beginning of its flagship programme Researchers At Work (CIS-RAW) . The CIS-RAW encourages innovative ideas and perspectives that emerge from dialogue and exchange, structured around a theme that changes every 2 years. The Theme for its first two years is "The Histories of the internets in India". The CIS-RAW is targeted at scholars, practitioners, theoreticians and thinkers willing to engage with the specific themes that CIS is immediately interested in and offers full financial support towards quantified academic and intellectual productions. Here is a list of FAQ for the CIS-RAW programme (It can also be accessed at http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw *What is the CIS-RAW?* The CIS-RAW stands for Researchers at Work, a multidisciplinary research initiative by the Centre for Internet and Society, Bangalore. The CIS firmly believes that in order to understand the contemporary concerns in the field of Internet and Society, it is necessary to produce local and contextual accounts of the interaction between different internets and the socio-cultural and geo-political structures.. The CIS-RAW programme hopes to produce one of the first documentations on the transactions and negotiations, relationships and correlations that the emergence of internet technologies has resulted in, specifically in the South. The CIS-RAW programme recognises 'The Histories of Internets and India' as its focus for the first two years. This particular thematic was envisioned because though many disciplines, organisations and interventions in various areas deal with the internet technologies, there has been very little work in documenting the polymorphous growth of the internet technologies and their relationship with the society in India. The existing narratives of the internet are often riddled with absences or only focus on the mainstream interests of the major stakeholders like the State and the corporate. We find it imperative to excavate the three decade histories of the internets to understand the concerns and questions in the field in the contemporary times. *How does The CIS-RAW programme work?* In its first two years, CIS-RAW is interested in working with theoreticians, scholars, practitioners and interventionists who have had a stake and experience in researching the field of Internet and Society. We are looking at a model of collaboration where different individuals and/or organisations are invited to come up with proposals for constructing historical and contextual accounts of the internets in India, from their own perspective and interests. *What is the role of CIS in the CIS-RAW programme?* The Centre for Internet and Society sees itself as involved in research in many different ways. We would of course be involved in providing critical input, ideas and comments to the original proposals by the different collaborators. We will also be, depending upon the individual expertise at the CIS, providing research and intellectual infrastructure required for several projects. However, we do not believe in doing everything ourselves. One of the pivotal roles that we see ourselves playing is that of an enabler. Through financial support, through establishing networks, through physical and intellectual infrastructure, the CIS hopes to enable multidisciplinary and unique research that inaugurates the field of Internet and Society in India. CIS also believes in a longer commitment to the CIS-RAW projects beyond the scope of the immediate research. We shall also be committed to disseminating the findings and the information contained in each individual project through public media like blogs and newspapers, and also through publishing of the individual projects as approach papers, journal articles and curricula designing in various peer-reviewed and respectable academic spaces. *What are the responsibilities of a CIS-RAW researcher?* The CIS quantifies the research responsibility of a CIS-RAW researcher in consultation with them, based on their individual expertise, interests and skills. Different projects, depending upon the object that is being analysed, lend themselves to different processes of documentation and historiography. Hence, each individual project will have the scope to define the methods by which the researcher wants to work and the modes of documentation. We believe in multidisciplinary and innovative forms of methods and documentation as critical to creative thought and would encourage that in all our research programmes. However, each research project will be committed to producing the following minimum research outputs:   1.   An approach paper that charts in detail, the larger scope of the field   with analysis and information (approximately 50 – 60 pages with additional   appendices and annexures).   2.   A working paper that can appear in a scholarly journal; the working paper   is a condensed and more precise version of the approach paper.   (approximately 5,000 – 7,000 words including references and footnotes)   3.   Contribution to our various media forms like blogs, newspapers, curricula   design etc. depending upon the scope of the project.   4.   A detailed annotated bibliography and resource list to build our library   and information archives.   5..   A commitment to peer review, public outreach and engagement with the CIS   networks defined in consultation with the researchers. *What is the nature of financial support that the CIS-RAW programme offers?* Currently, we do not have a specified budget for the CIS-RAW researches. Depending upon the scope of the project and the skills of the researchers, a budget is arrived at by mutual agreement. We follow precedent when costing projects in different sectors but are sensitive to the varied needs of different projects and the research costs involved. *Does the CIS-RAW programme have a fixed time-line?* We see the CIS-RAW projects as spanning 6-9 months, leading to the producing of quantifiable research outputs. However, we also look upon the CIS-RAW projects as works in progress. Moreover, there are no fixed beginning and termination time-lines for the CIS-RAW programme itself. New ideas and innovative approaches to the field of Internet and Society are always welcome to come and find us and we can initiate the project based on further conversations. *Do I get to work in your office if I am a CIS-RAW researcher?* The Centre for Internet and Society has its offices, currently, in Bangalore. If you are based out of Bangalore or outside of Bangalore (or relocating to Bangalore for the scope of the project), we would be more than happy to offer you office space and research infrastructure that might be required for your research, including research equipment and your own space in the office. *I have an idea but it is more about an activity rather than research…* We, at the Centre for Internet and Society, believe that research happens in many forms – through theoretical apparatus, through philosophical debates, through proactive interventions and through dialogue and exchange of ideas and information. We like to think of Research as a broad umbrella term to encompass many different activities. However, we also believe that any project deserves (and indeed, needs) a contextualisation and historicisation document which helps more clarity about the aim, the scope and the relevance of the project. We offer the CIS-RAW programme as a space to think of these various histories and contexts and thus offer resources and infrastructure for projects which might eventually take a life of their own beyond the CIS-RAW programme. If you have an idea of a new field of inquiry, or a more active intervention oriented project, and if it fits within the scope of our interests and measures against our vision statement, we would be happy to collaborate with you over the idea in its initial state and hopefully help with more resources and administration. You might also be interested in looking at our Advocacy Programmes for more information.   *I have a research idea which does not fit your theme. Would you still be interested?* All of us at CIS are always excited about new research questions and ideas. Even if you have something in mind that doesn't fit anything that we might have documented on this website, please feel free to approach us with the idea. As a young and growing centre, we see ourselves as much in the learning mode as we imagine ourselves as in the enabling mode. To learn, through dialogues and exchange, is our motto and we have the fortunate flexibility of resource allocation to engage in projects which might have been outside of our earlier visions or imaginations. In other words, if you have an idea, please buzz us or walk in to our offices. We promise really good coffee and hopefully interesting conversations. *Are there any other forms of research outside the CIS-RAW programme?* The CIS engages in many different kinds of research programmes that cover a wide spectrum of areas and a huge galaxy of modalities. For more information you might want to look at the other programmes available under the Researchand Advocacy Portfolios. *I don't have research experience but I am interested in the CIS-RAW programme…* The CIS-RAW, as a programme, is focussed specifically on individuals or organisations which have already been in the field of Internet and Society or related areas. It is designed to document the existing knowledges with new perspectives and frameworks, which are not available as a useful resource right now due to lack of such an initiative. However, we are also committed to looking at younger researchers in the field and have many interesting ways of collaborating – through teaching, workshops, projects, internships, etc. We also have interest in creating inclusive pedagogic practices and would love the opportunity to exchange thoughts and ideas with you. Just write to us or walk into our office and we can take things from there. If you are looking at involving yourself with CIS, you might want to have a look at our Advocacy Portfolio which is always looking for motivated volunteers who are ready to learn, intervene and make a contribution in the fields that we are concerned with. You can also look at the other programmes in the Research Portfolioto see if we might have something that caters to you. *Are you looking at more international research involving comparative studies across countries?* The Centre for Internet and Society considers itself an international research centre based in India, with a particular interest in South-South exchange and dialogue. We are certainly interested in opportunities of collaboration, exchange and engagement with researchers from other contexts or researchers in India who have larger cross-boundary projects in mind. However, for the CIS-RAW programme, we are focusing largely on India and its contexts. If you have a much larger project in mind, you might be interested in our Project Inception GrantsProgramme. *For more information on the specific theme of the Histories of the internets in India, please read here:* http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet We welcome all ideas, conversations or programmes that the people on this mailing list might be interested in. Please contact us either on phone or via email (If you have specific queries about collaboration, please email us in person so that we can spare the list some traffic), or if you are going to be in Bangalore, just drop in to our office. Warmly Nishant P.S. Posting it on several lists, apologies if you get it several times! -- Nishant Shah Doctoral Candidate, CSCS, Bangalore. Director (Research), Centre for Internet and Society,( www.cis-india.org ) Asia Awards Fellow, 2008-09 # 0-9740074884 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:14:56 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rescue the Rescue by Friedman To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" HI Tara Just finished reading your text. It's quite eerie how both both James McDonald and Matt Taibbi have zeroed in on Friedman's "Cinnabon" as a target for irritation. Friedman has a thing for fast food and theory. He famously said two countries that both had McDonalds would never go to war with each other. Guess again... http://www.siberianlight.net/2008/09/16/russia-georgia-mcdonalds-theory-of-war/ > From: "TaraPrakash" > Hi all and Naeem. > Thanks for this wonderful post responding to Friedman's false claim that the > world has become flat. Someone on a blog entry said that the world is flat > as Friedman's head is flat. > I wrote a detailed critique of the book in the backdrop of the name change > farce from Bangalor to Bangaluru. Both always existed, Friedman could see > the former; Bangluru, the native Kanadigas  are feeling left out in the > "flattened world" is ready to assert. > Let me see if I can fish the entire paper out for the list. Till then, here > is an excerpt > > > The Bangalore he describes in his book has nothing intrinsically Bangalorish > about it. In his narrative, he plays at the golf courses, attends meetings > in five-star hotels and western-looking multi-storey office complexes. > Friedman's Bangalore is a debangalorized, deterritorialized, delocalized > Bangalore, which can be found in any city of America. About this Bangalore, > Friedman says in The World is Flat, "No, this definitely wasn't Kansas. It > didn't even seem like India." He further asks, "Was this the New World, the > Old World, or the Next World?" (Friedman 13) The answer perhaps should be > the third one. Whereas "the old world", for Friedman, represents India, not > developed and, due to poor infrastructure, not easily accessible to all, > "the new world" represents very well developed American cities with very > restricted access to outsiders. "The next world" perhaps can be said to > exist anywhere, anytime. It is not constrained by any place or time, and > Friedman thinks, is open to all. As self-styled discoverer of this new > world, Friedman has absolute right to compare himself with Columbus, and he > makes full use of the opportunity by doing so at the very outset of his > scripture. > > An avid student of history, even though one does not have to be so to know > this, surely knows that explorers like Columbus, in order to motivate > royalty and aristocrats to support their further voyages, did inflate their > successes by means of concocting fabulous and misleading yarns about the > discovered places, with one fundamental moral: the place promises > prosperity, you must invest in it. Columbus did sell to some European > aristocrats the idea of concentrating on the new world he discovered, for > economic prosperity; Friedman seems to be doing the same in a different > context. His motive is to give a favorable publicity to Bangalore, so that > people from out of Bangalore do not mind shifting to this new world. > > After reading his book (which in addition to other epithets, calls > Bangalore, "the Silicon Valley of India",), if one, ignorant about the real > Silicon Valley, decides to move to Friedman's Bangalore, as Indians from > various parts of the country are doing for employment, one will find a very > squalid picture of the real Silicon Valley. The Silicon Valley, for him, > will have dirty, narrow, polluted roads with lots of potholes, with traffic > hardly moving on them. On the other hand if a resident of America visits the > real Silicon Valley to have a feel of Bangalore, he will find Bangalore a > sophisticated city with very well developed infrastructure. He won't mind > relocating to the city his boss wants him to, to manage the back office of > his firm. Firms in the U.S. increasingly want their employees to relocate to > Bangalore so that the management of those firms remains in "trained, > trustworthy" hands. This trend is likely to intensify with the time. Such a > "feel good factor" offered by Friedman helps to convince a reluctant > American employee to move to Bangalore. Friedman is really so much like > Columbus, when it comes to exaggeration about the newly discovered > territory. > > However, there is one fundamental difference between Columbus and Friedman > as explorers. Whereas Columbus's faulty calculations about the earth led him > to a new scientific discovery that the earth is round, Friedman's incorrect > calculations about the new world led him to an incorrect economic discovery > that the world is flat. This discovery is based more on faith than reason, > therefore, requires a religious zeal to be believed. > > But then there are heretics who challenge Friedman's sermons on > Globalization. Friedman, evidently, has not been successful in selling his > theory of "the world is flat" to many nonbelievers. He has been criticized > by various globalist writers. But more interestingly, he has earned a > significant amount of bad publicity even in the blog literature. It is > notable to read the following poem "On first looking into Friedman's > Flathead" by James D. Macdonald > > Criticizing Friedman's romantic ideas about Globalization, composed in the > fashion of one of the romantic poets, John Keats. The reference, in the > context of Friedman, to Don Juan and Jose Canseco, perhaps symbolizing > villainy, mendacity and dishonesty undermining the flat, level playing > field, are very remarkable. Here, interestingly, the poet is using for his > heresy, the same medium, communication technology, which, in the first > place, made the religion of Globalization possible, and the same as the > auspex used for disseminating his prophesy of Globalization to the world. > > Much have I travell'd in a chartered jet > And munched betimes upon a Cinnabon; > Upon my iPod listened to Don Juan > Which I downloaded from the wireless 'Net'. > I did not understand the 'Nineties lore > Of Windows systems and of Pizza Hut, > How one was opened and the other shut, > Till I heard Friedman speak in metaphor. > Then felt I like a steroid in a vein: > Jose Canseco on a level field, > Whose random thoughts of glory and of pain > Were like an ice-cream sundae all congealed. > The moral is, when put by words in train, > That which does not exist can't be revealed. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 18 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 16:13:17 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:13:17 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Contents of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 18- India- others amongst us.? Message-ID: <927361.31267.qm@web94908.mail.in2.yahoo.com> After reading this post I could not but feel like lauging at the very idea of "others" amongst is. In India there are no others amongst us, both hindus and muslims are having tough time to reconcile with the thought of others, as media feeds on human miseries, day in day out, journalists make it a point to misinformation and feed on "others" amongst us, the divisive politics of all political parties are feeding on the theory of "others" amonst us, and the word secular is not in practice at any walk of life. A famous muslim wants her fourth home in a building that she likes, in a town she likes, at a price she wants as she is accustomed to getting what she wants by being "others". She forgets all the juggi and slumdwellers once she becomes a MP, forgets the cause of working for the slum dwellers as she is busy manipulating the political parties for the next term in rajya sabha.    More importantly, the media has forgotten the past so quickly that the  event of mid fifties, when India was having wheat shortage, America gave aid in wheat, the aid then became a soft loan, PL 48o. It was misused by the then governance to create law and order issues in kerala to dismiss a democratically elected government of EMS namboodripad, the issue being it was left party ruled state, democratically elected. then, visionary leader was the Pm of the nation, Nehru. Declassified archives of America reveal  how the then Home minister, S K Patil had a role in misuse of the funds to boot out the elected governance. This is the flash back, now just look around what is happening in India, after N-deal, with billions of trade and some more billions in kickbacks, the rulers have new game in force, as supreme court judgement in Bommai Case does not allow use of art,356 that easily, so now the use of art.355.   Yet the citizens do not understand the role of media which is busy with hailing the PM for his vision of the PM and non-functional home minister, who has to be pro-active n booting out the terror, whoever indulges in it. But vote bank politics is such that all parties political, are keen to encash the vote banks. Regards. ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 5 October, 2008 2:45:03 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 18 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. FINANCE: Waiting for Schadenfreude (Naeem Mohaiemen)   2. INDIA: Others Among Us (Naeem Mohaiemen)   3. Centre for Internet and Society's Researchers At Work       Programme - Histories of the internets in India (Nishant Shah)   4. Re: Rescue the Rescue by Friedman (Naeem Mohaiemen) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 09:50:59 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Waiting for Schadenfreude To: "Sarai Reader List" Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" "Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats ‹ the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries ‹ are taking us down with them." October 2, 2008, 10:02 PM Waiting for Schadenfreude Judith Warner (Judith Warner's book, "Perfect Madness: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety", a New York Times best-seller, was published in February 2005.) A couple of years ago, at the height of the boom, a friend in New York publishing described to me the indignities of being a five-figure employee commuting daily from suburban New Jersey on trains packed with traders, stock brokers and hedge-fund types. ³These were the guys who, in college, I used to step over on Sunday mornings when they were lying in a pool of their own vomit,² he said. ³And now they¹re earning millions and millions ­ in bonuses alone.² The image, as you might imagine, stuck in my mind. For it summed up so well a certain kind of resentment and sense of injustice that a particular class of non-monied professionals in the New York area came to feel sometime in the late 1990s. The feeling of injustice wasn¹t just about money, though it was partly about being more than solidly middle class and still struggling to pay the bills, as New York writer Vince Passaro captured so well in his ³Reflections on the Art of Going Broke² (³Who¹ll Stop the Drain?²) in Harper¹s in 1998. It was, rather, about a sense that the wrong people had inherited the earth. They had taken over everything. Their salaries (and bonuses in particular) had pushed real estate costs and living expenses sky-high. Their values had permeated every aspect of life. And their choices seemed to have become the only acceptable ‹ even viable ‹ ones possible. In the 1970s, even in New York, it had been financially possible for a middle class family to survive if parents ‹ even one parent ‹ built a professional life around something other than purely making money. In the 1980s ‹ even in the ³greed is good² (which was of course meant to be a damning phrase) 1980s ‹ it seemed respectable, honorable and, dare I say, valuable to do things other than make a lot of money. But by the late 1990s, in New York, if you weren¹t in the financial industry, it was hard to survive. And so it went, in a more general way, throughout the country, in the whole winner-take-all-era ushered in by the boom years of the late 1990s. The model for success narrowed. The goal posts marking success grew more out of reach. For all the people who did something with their lives other than doggedly, single-mindedly ‹ and successfully ‹ pursuing wealth (³You mean, some people¹s jobs are just about making money?² Julia once asked me in the course of one of our ³What the World is About² conversations), life got harder and scarier and more confusing. Many of us who¹d proudly decided, in our twenties, to pursue edifying or creative, or ³helping² professions, woke up to realize, once we had families, that we¹d perhaps been irresponsible. We couldn¹t save for college. We could barely save for retirement. If we set up a ³family-friendly² lifestyle, we threw our financial futures down the drain. So, like just about everyone, we worked hard and treaded water, but felt we were entitled to do better than that. And if we lived in the New York area, or another similarly wealthy area where the spoils of the new Gilded Age were constantly thrust in our faces, we felt, like my friend on the train, a little something more: we knew that we were losers. (³The Big L,² a friend, an art school grad turned design consultant, declared last week, calling me in tears after her stockbroker told her how little she cared about her modest portfolio. ³Why not just brand it right on my forehead and be done with it?²) This financial crisis is supposed to be a big moment of reckoning. ³666-Mark of the Beast² and ³Root of all Evil² the End-of-World Web sites are shouting, quoting prominent economists on the demise of the American banking system. ³Wall Street, R.I.P.², a headline in The Times proclaimed last weekend. ³The Master of the Universe Era is over,² New York magazine chimed in. For those of us who have hated this period ‹ the wealth worship, the wealth gap, the elevation of everything suspiciously shiny and irrationally bubbly and stupidly ebullient, there should be some feeling of vindication. But it just isn¹t coming. A great emptiness ‹ and a gnawing kind of fear ‹ has taken its place. After 9/11, psychologists said that the tragedy and trauma would magnify whatever emotional state people were already experiencing. Depressed people would become much more depressed. Anxious people would become much more anxious. The current financial crisis has, I think, proven to be a similar sort of emotional Rorschach test. People who felt impotent feel even more powerless. Those who felt lied to see new levels of conspiracy. Demagogues are engaging in even more demagoguery. And those of us who felt, well, like losers, are feeling like even bigger losers, as we shove our unopened 401K or (if we¹re double-loser freelancers) SEP-IRA statements into bottom desk drawers and wait for a cathartic burst of schadenfreude that simply refuses to come. Schadenfreude is impossible because the fat cats ‹ the ones who bent the rules, the ones who pushed the envelopes, the ones who paid lower taxes because capital gains were most of their income, the ones who opposed regulations on the banking and mortgage industries ‹ are taking us down with them. The very wealthiest are, as always, likely to do just fine. Real, hard-core Wall Street, as Tom Wolfe reminded us last weekend, long ago decamped for the hedge funds of Greenwich. The political leaders who allowed this mess to develop have turned into the great defenders of ³Main Street.² (If I have to hear the juxtaposition of ³Main Street² and ³Wall Street² one more time, I will be the one drowning in a pool of vomit.). It¹s a whole host of other people ‹ vulnerable middle class homeowners and small business owners and, now, universities unable to make payroll ‹ who are hurting. I called my friend in publishing yesterday to ask him how things were going on the train. ³There¹s a lot of rueful chuckling. There¹s a lot of talk about riding this out, about maintaining,² is all he had to say. It was 23 years ago that Tom Wolfe introduced us to the Masters of the Universe. They were curiosities then ‹ remote, very rich, and decidedly not like you and me. But now, the world of Wall Street has become our world; there is no outside to it, there is no other option than to pay and play. Our fortunes rise and fall together to a degree like never before, and our values are enmeshed like never before. The language of Wall Street ‹ of cost-cutting and efficiency, self-interest, using each situation to maximize profit, is the language of everyday life and social interaction. We¹re all losers now. There¹s no pleasure to it. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:37:34 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us To: "Sarai Reader List" Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Others Among Us By Suroor Mander 04 October, 2008 Countercurrents.org I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with us. What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class citizens. Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by fundamentalists from their community. We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have to. We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our hearts feel. Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:55:08 +0530 From: "Nishant Shah" Subject: [Reader-list] Centre for Internet and Society's Researchers     At Work    Programme - Histories of the internets in India To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Dear All, It is with the greatest pleasure that we announce the launch of The Centre for Internet and Society's Research Portfolio and the beginning of its flagship programme Researchers At Work (CIS-RAW) . The CIS-RAW encourages innovative ideas and perspectives that emerge from dialogue and exchange, structured around a theme that changes every 2 years. The Theme for its first two years is "The Histories of the internets in India". The CIS-RAW is targeted at scholars, practitioners, theoreticians and thinkers willing to engage with the specific themes that CIS is immediately interested in and offers full financial support towards quantified academic and intellectual productions. Here is a list of FAQ for the CIS-RAW programme (It can also be accessed at http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw *What is the CIS-RAW?* The CIS-RAW stands for Researchers at Work, a multidisciplinary research initiative by the Centre for Internet and Society, Bangalore. The CIS firmly believes that in order to understand the contemporary concerns in the field of Internet and Society, it is necessary to produce local and contextual accounts of the interaction between different internets and the socio-cultural and geo-political structures.. The CIS-RAW programme hopes to produce one of the first documentations on the transactions and negotiations, relationships and correlations that the emergence of internet technologies has resulted in, specifically in the South. The CIS-RAW programme recognises 'The Histories of Internets and India' as its focus for the first two years. This particular thematic was envisioned because though many disciplines, organisations and interventions in various areas deal with the internet technologies, there has been very little work in documenting the polymorphous growth of the internet technologies and their relationship with the society in India. The existing narratives of the internet are often riddled with absences or only focus on the mainstream interests of the major stakeholders like the State and the corporate. We find it imperative to excavate the three decade histories of the internets to understand the concerns and questions in the field in the contemporary times. *How does The CIS-RAW programme work?* In its first two years, CIS-RAW is interested in working with theoreticians, scholars, practitioners and interventionists who have had a stake and experience in researching the field of Internet and Society. We are looking at a model of collaboration where different individuals and/or organisations are invited to come up with proposals for constructing historical and contextual accounts of the internets in India, from their own perspective and interests. *What is the role of CIS in the CIS-RAW programme?* The Centre for Internet and Society sees itself as involved in research in many different ways. We would of course be involved in providing critical input, ideas and comments to the original proposals by the different collaborators. We will also be, depending upon the individual expertise at the CIS, providing research and intellectual infrastructure required for several projects. However, we do not believe in doing everything ourselves. One of the pivotal roles that we see ourselves playing is that of an enabler. Through financial support, through establishing networks, through physical and intellectual infrastructure, the CIS hopes to enable multidisciplinary and unique research that inaugurates the field of Internet and Society in India. CIS also believes in a longer commitment to the CIS-RAW projects beyond the scope of the immediate research. We shall also be committed to disseminating the findings and the information contained in each individual project through public media like blogs and newspapers, and also through publishing of the individual projects as approach papers, journal articles and curricula designing in various peer-reviewed and respectable academic spaces. *What are the responsibilities of a CIS-RAW researcher?* The CIS quantifies the research responsibility of a CIS-RAW researcher in consultation with them, based on their individual expertise, interests and skills. Different projects, depending upon the object that is being analysed, lend themselves to different processes of documentation and historiography. Hence, each individual project will have the scope to define the methods by which the researcher wants to work and the modes of documentation. We believe in multidisciplinary and innovative forms of methods and documentation as critical to creative thought and would encourage that in all our research programmes. However, each research project will be committed to producing the following minimum research outputs:   1.   An approach paper that charts in detail, the larger scope of the field   with analysis and information (approximately 50 – 60 pages with additional   appendices and annexures).   2.   A working paper that can appear in a scholarly journal; the working paper   is a condensed and more precise version of the approach paper.   (approximately 5,000 – 7,000 words including references and footnotes)   3.   Contribution to our various media forms like blogs, newspapers, curricula   design etc. depending upon the scope of the project.   4.   A detailed annotated bibliography and resource list to build our library   and information archives.   5..   A commitment to peer review, public outreach and engagement with the CIS   networks defined in consultation with the researchers. *What is the nature of financial support that the CIS-RAW programme offers?* Currently, we do not have a specified budget for the CIS-RAW researches. Depending upon the scope of the project and the skills of the researchers, a budget is arrived at by mutual agreement. We follow precedent when costing projects in different sectors but are sensitive to the varied needs of different projects and the research costs involved. *Does the CIS-RAW programme have a fixed time-line?* We see the CIS-RAW projects as spanning 6-9 months, leading to the producing of quantifiable research outputs. However, we also look upon the CIS-RAW projects as works in progress. Moreover, there are no fixed beginning and termination time-lines for the CIS-RAW programme itself. New ideas and innovative approaches to the field of Internet and Society are always welcome to come and find us and we can initiate the project based on further conversations. *Do I get to work in your office if I am a CIS-RAW researcher?* The Centre for Internet and Society has its offices, currently, in Bangalore. If you are based out of Bangalore or outside of Bangalore (or relocating to Bangalore for the scope of the project), we would be more than happy to offer you office space and research infrastructure that might be required for your research, including research equipment and your own space in the office. *I have an idea but it is more about an activity rather than research…* We, at the Centre for Internet and Society, believe that research happens in many forms – through theoretical apparatus, through philosophical debates, through proactive interventions and through dialogue and exchange of ideas and information. We like to think of Research as a broad umbrella term to encompass many different activities. However, we also believe that any project deserves (and indeed, needs) a contextualisation and historicisation document which helps more clarity about the aim, the scope and the relevance of the project. We offer the CIS-RAW programme as a space to think of these various histories and contexts and thus offer resources and infrastructure for projects which might eventually take a life of their own beyond the CIS-RAW programme. If you have an idea of a new field of inquiry, or a more active intervention oriented project, and if it fits within the scope of our interests and measures against our vision statement, we would be happy to collaborate with you over the idea in its initial state and hopefully help with more resources and administration. You might also be interested in looking at our Advocacy Programmes for more information.   *I have a research idea which does not fit your theme. Would you still be interested?* All of us at CIS are always excited about new research questions and ideas. Even if you have something in mind that doesn't fit anything that we might have documented on this website, please feel free to approach us with the idea. As a young and growing centre, we see ourselves as much in the learning mode as we imagine ourselves as in the enabling mode. To learn, through dialogues and exchange, is our motto and we have the fortunate flexibility of resource allocation to engage in projects which might have been outside of our earlier visions or imaginations. In other words, if you have an idea, please buzz us or walk in to our offices. We promise really good coffee and hopefully interesting conversations. *Are there any other forms of research outside the CIS-RAW programme?* The CIS engages in many different kinds of research programmes that cover a wide spectrum of areas and a huge galaxy of modalities. For more information you might want to look at the other programmes available under the Researchand Advocacy Portfolios. *I don't have research experience but I am interested in the CIS-RAW programme…* The CIS-RAW, as a programme, is focussed specifically on individuals or organisations which have already been in the field of Internet and Society or related areas. It is designed to document the existing knowledges with new perspectives and frameworks, which are not available as a useful resource right now due to lack of such an initiative. However, we are also committed to looking at younger researchers in the field and have many interesting ways of collaborating – through teaching, workshops, projects, internships, etc. We also have interest in creating inclusive pedagogic practices and would love the opportunity to exchange thoughts and ideas with you. Just write to us or walk into our office and we can take things from there. If you are looking at involving yourself with CIS, you might want to have a look at our Advocacy Portfolio which is always looking for motivated volunteers who are ready to learn, intervene and make a contribution in the fields that we are concerned with. You can also look at the other programmes in the Research Portfolioto see if we might have something that caters to you. *Are you looking at more international research involving comparative studies across countries?* The Centre for Internet and Society considers itself an international research centre based in India, with a particular interest in South-South exchange and dialogue. We are certainly interested in opportunities of collaboration, exchange and engagement with researchers from other contexts or researchers in India who have larger cross-boundary projects in mind. However, for the CIS-RAW programme, we are focusing largely on India and its contexts. If you have a much larger project in mind, you might be interested in our Project Inception GrantsProgramme. *For more information on the specific theme of the Histories of the internets in India, please read here:* http://cis-india.org/research/cis-raw/histories-of-the-internet We welcome all ideas, conversations or programmes that the people on this mailing list might be interested in. Please contact us either on phone or via email (If you have specific queries about collaboration, please email us in person so that we can spare the list some traffic), or if you are going to be in Bangalore, just drop in to our office. Warmly Nishant P.S. Posting it on several lists, apologies if you get it several times! -- Nishant Shah Doctoral Candidate, CSCS, Bangalore. Director (Research), Centre for Internet and Society,( www.cis-india.org ) Asia Awards Fellow, 2008-09 # 0-9740074884 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:14:56 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Rescue the Rescue by Friedman To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" HI Tara Just finished reading your text. It's quite eerie how both both James McDonald and Matt Taibbi have zeroed in on Friedman's "Cinnabon" as a target for irritation. Friedman has a thing for fast food and theory. He famously said two countries that both had McDonalds would never go to war with each other. Guess again... http://www.siberianlight.net/2008/09/16/russia-georgia-mcdonalds-theory-of-war/ > From: "TaraPrakash" > Hi all and Naeem. > Thanks for this wonderful post responding to Friedman's false claim that the > world has become flat. Someone on a blog entry said that the world is flat > as Friedman's head is flat. > I wrote a detailed critique of the book in the backdrop of the name change > farce from Bangalor to Bangaluru. Both always existed, Friedman could see > the former; Bangluru, the native Kanadigas  are feeling left out in the > "flattened world" is ready to assert. > Let me see if I can fish the entire paper out for the list. Tillthen, here > is an excerpt > > > The Bangalore he describes in his book has nothing intrinsically Bangalorish > about it. In his narrative, he plays at the golf courses, attends meetings > in five-star hotels and western-looking multi-storey office complexes. > Friedman's Bangalore is a debangalorized, deterritorialized, delocalized > Bangalore, which can be found in any city of America. About this Bangalore, > Friedman says in The World is Flat, "No, this definitely wasn't Kansas. It > didn't even seem like India." He further asks, "Was this the New World, the > Old World, or the Next World?" (Friedman 13) The answer perhaps should be > the third one. Whereas "the old world", for Friedman, represents India, not > developed and, due to poor infrastructure, not easily accessible to all, > "the new world" represents very well developed American cities with very > restricted access to outsiders. "The next world" perhaps can be said to > exist anywhere, anytime. It is not constrained by any place or time, and > Friedman thinks, is open to all. As self-styled discoverer of this new > world, Friedman has absolute right to compare himself with Columbus, and he > makes full use of the opportunity by doing so at the very outset of his > scripture. > > An avid student of history, even though one does not have to be so to know > this, surely knows that explorers like Columbus, in order to motivate > royalty and aristocrats to support their further voyages, did inflate their > successes by means of concocting fabulous and misleading yarns about the > discovered places, with one fundamental moral: the place promises > prosperity, you must invest in it. Columbus did sell to some European > aristocrats the idea of concentrating on the new world he discovered, for > economic prosperity; Friedman seems to be doing the same in a different > context. His motive is to give a favorable publicity to Bangalore, so that > people from out of Bangalore do not mind shifting to this new world. > > After reading his book (which in addition to other epithets, calls > Bangalore, "the Silicon Valley of India",), if one, ignorant about the real > Silicon Valley, decides to move to Friedman's Bangalore, as Indians from > various parts of the country are doing for employment, one will find a very > squalid picture of the real Silicon Valley. The Silicon Valley, for him, > will have dirty, narrow, polluted roads with lots of potholes, with traffic > hardly moving on them. On the other hand if a resident of America visits the > real Silicon Valley to have a feel of Bangalore, he will find Bangalore a > sophisticated city with very well developed infrastructure. He won't mind > relocating to the city his boss wants him to, to manage the back office of > his firm. Firms in the U.S. increasingly want their employees to relocate to > Bangalore so that the management of those firms remains in "trained, > trustworthy" hands. This trend is likely to intensify with the time. Such a > "feel good factor" offered by Friedman helps to convince a reluctant > American employee to move to Bangalore. Friedman is really so much like > Columbus, when it comes to exaggeration about the newly discovered > territory. > > However, there is one fundamental difference between Columbus and Friedman > as explorers. Whereas Columbus's faulty calculations about the earth led him > to a new scientific discovery that the earth is round, Friedman's incorrect > calculations about the new world led him to an incorrect economic discovery > that the world is flat. This discovery is based more on faith than reason, > therefore, requires a religious zeal to be believed. > > But then there are heretics who challenge Friedman's sermons on > Globalization. Friedman, evidently, has not been successful in selling his > theory of "the world is flat" to many nonbelievers. He has been criticized > by various globalist writers. But more interestingly, he has earned a > significant amount of bad publicity even in the blog literature. It is > notable to read the following poem "On first looking into Friedman's > Flathead" by James D. Macdonald > > Criticizing Friedman's romantic ideas about Globalization, composed in the > fashion of one of the romantic poets, John Keats. The reference, in the > context of Friedman, to Don Juan and Jose Canseco, perhaps symbolizing > villainy, mendacity and dishonesty undermining the flat, level playing > field, are very remarkable. Here, interestingly, the poet is using for his > heresy, the same medium, communication technology, which, in the first > place, made the religion of Globalization possible, and the same as the > auspex used for disseminating his prophesy of Globalization to the world. > > Much have I travell'd in a chartered jet > And munched betimes upon a Cinnabon; > Upon my iPod listened to Don Juan > Which I downloaded from the wireless 'Net'. > I did not understand the 'Nineties lore > Of Windows systems and of Pizza Hut, > How one was opened and the other shut, > Till I heard Friedman speak in metaphor. > Then felt I like a steroid in a vein: > Jose Canseco on a level field, > Whose random thoughts of glory and of pain > Were like an ice-cream sundae all congealed. > The moral is, when put by words in train, > That which does not exist can't be revealed. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 18 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Sun Oct 5 16:40:51 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 5 Oct 2008 11:10:51 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] On Intellectual fads Message-ID: <20081005111051.7202.qmail@f4mail-235-149.rediffmail.com> On intellectual fads and snobbishness I found the article forwarded by Nazneen very interesting since many of us have been witness to epoch making events since 1991. it also raises very valid questions about the relevance of free market economy as witnessed by the new depression in the US. The ‘decline’ of Marxism can’t invalidate the relevance or need for a welfare state, which has withered away, thanks to the lopsided globalisation, liberalisation and privatization. We have just witnessed state government’s performing a good subordinate’s job for private sector in land acquisition, tax benefits and SEZ’s resulting in brutalization of the marginalized sections of the society. Secondly the view on categories and branding is something which all of us have to seriously look into – lest it becomes a sophisticated gibberish. The developments in Singur, Khanmahal and Assam are seen in an exotic manner by some of the scholars and they have time and again deployed lexicons and jargons to suit their interest – in publishing their papers in journal or for that matter seeking grants from rich donors. Ironically it’s the Dalits and Tribals fighting in the jungles with the state apparatus choosing to remain a mute spectator, lest the vote bank gets affected. Moreover in an impoverished region religion hardly has relevance in terms of moral protest. The regions like Uttar Pradesh (Hindus vs Muslims, Dalits vs nonDalits), Tamilnadu (OBCs vs Dalits, Non Dalit Chriatian vs Dalit Christians) Bihar, Punjab (Caste Sikhs vs Mazbhi and Backward caste Sikhs), Haryana or Maharashtra (Upper Caste, OBCs, BCs vis a vis Dalits, Non Dalit Buddhists vs Neo Buddhists (Dalits) do provide the usual intellectual masala for studying role of caste and religion. Lets remember that there is nothing wrong in embracing any faith or sect if it provides one with the bread and butter, since states are busy acquiring land for the MNCs, and the farmers continue to commit suicide and the poor continue to slit each others throat over the fewer state resources. Hence negotiating with categories could be a problem but the question is who is the one creating a conformist opinion about people and places?? Ironically the clash in Assam becomes a clash between a bodo and migrants not the one from minority community. In other words tribals and dalits have nothing left to cling on except to the lollapaloozas scripted by the great missionaries of various faiths. One should question if these sections, who are relegated to the margins of the society and mocked at as an abominable being by the mainstream patrons, can’t be agent of their own self and have to depend on alien gods and goddesses – aren’t we savaging the civilized! There hasn’t been adequate focus on elements like fight over state resources in terms of reservation, relative sense of deprivation. Dalits and tribals in spite of being co-opted into religious brackets are condemned to the margins. So one would be forced to engage with a ST, SC,Hindu, Muslim, Naxal etc. Thirdly its not who says what, when and how or the kind of lens one wants to use, but the motive of the discourse user, women aren’t safe in Delhi be it high profile case of Jessica Lal or ordinary person like Soumya who were just working like any other individual. Priyadarshini case unravelled the monstrous face of people ensconced in state structure and their capability to manipulate the investing agencies to the whims and fancies of their kith and kin. At the same time no one is discounting the unfortunate and cold blooded killing of Hemraj, or people getting killed in the street corners or run over by the Blue line buses. Finally we need is a robust civil society and groups who can not only seek intervention of the state but campaign against any of crime and discrimination.   On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! (Aditya Raj Kaul) > 2. Re: Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! (Aditya Raj Kaul) > 3. Journalist stabbed (Aditya Raj Kaul) > 4. Re: Stupid Intellectual Fads. (TaraPrakash) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:38:34 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! >To: "sarai list" >Message-ID: > <6353c690810041008qd3a0bfft83da304325eaf3e4 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > >True. I agree with some parts. But, those who remain silent on road and are >only commenting just always on internet on everything are the first in that >list of foolish people. >Just to correct you; Priyadarshini Mattoo was no elite women. Kindly study a >bit and then write your comments. > >Love >Aditya Raj Kaul > >On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > > While one commends efforts to seek the truth about Soumya > > Viswanathan's murder, I was struck by one line in this mail: > > > > > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > > sort > > > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > > > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > > > I wonder why it didn't mention Hemraj Banjade even as it did Arushi > > Talwar. Weren't both murdered the same night, in the same house? I can > > understand that we don't care about the poor being murdered, we don't > > launch campaigns for them, we don't sit in TV studios and lecture the > > world on justice, police, government. But in this case, surely, to > > show our bias so blatantly as to mention only one of the two victims > > of a "double murder" - this is rather foolish. As we go about seeking > > justice for every middle class/elite woman killed, we must not leave > > any signs that let the world guess that we don't care about the rest. > > > > Aditya, please note! > > > > best > > shivam > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > Forwarded Message by Achint Anand - Headlines Today > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > All of you are aware of the tragic passing away of our colleague Soumya > > > Viswanathan. > > > > > > A promising young Producer, Soumya was loved by her seniors and peers, > > and > > > revered by her juniors. Soumya was murdered while driving back home from > > > work after completing an unusually long shift at work, having stayed back > > to > > > help with her channel Headlines Today's coverage of the blasts in Gujarat > > > and Maharashtra on the 29th of September, 2008. > > > > > > She was killed by a bullet to her head in the wee hours of Tuesday, the > > 30th > > > of September. > > > > > > We are waiting for the police to find the person (or people) who > > committed > > > this dastardly act. We are waiting for answers, as we struggle to come to > > > terms with our dear friend's unfair death. > > > > > > But while we wait, we want to help the investigation. We want to do what > > we > > > can to do the only thing we can for Soumya – find the murderer, who is > > still > > > walking free. > > > > > > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > > sort > > > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > > > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > > > > > This note is to invite you to join the campaign. This is to request you > > to > > > lend your voice, lend whatever power you have, to help us in our > > campaign. > > > > > > Come. Bring your friends. Bring whoever you think can help us. > > > > > > VENUE: The Press Club of India, Raisina Road, New Delhi > > > DATE: 4th October 2008 > > > TIME: 1.00pm > > > > > > From, > > > > > > Friends of Soumya Viswanathan > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 23:13:23 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Justice for Soumya - Please join Us ! >To: "sarai list" >Message-ID: > <6353c690810041043l4a3953b0u783e3fa2ee5b8c16 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > >Even Hemraj would have come under Lower Middle Class if we take the current >scenario. >It would have been great to see you at the prayer meeting today, Shivam. >Hundreds of your journalist friends were there. > >Love >Aditya Raj Kaul > >On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:06 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >wrote: > > > I said "middle class/elite". Kindly study a bit and then write your > > comments. > > > > Love > > Shivam > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > True. I agree with some parts. But, those who remain silent on road and > > are > > > only commenting just always on internet on everything are the first in > > that > > > list of foolish people. > > > Just to correct you; Priyadarshini Mattoo was no elite women. Kindly > > study a > > > bit and then write your comments. > > > > > > Love > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् < > > mail at shivamvij.com>wrote: > > > > > >> While one commends efforts to seek the truth about Soumya > > >> Viswanathan's murder, I was struck by one line in this mail: > > >> > > >> > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > > >> sort > > >> > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > > >> > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > >> > > >> I wonder why it didn't mention Hemraj Banjade even as it did Arushi > > >> Talwar. Weren't both murdered the same night, in the same house? I can > > >> understand that we don't care about the poor being murdered, we don't > > >> launch campaigns for them, we don't sit in TV studios and lecture the > > >> world on justice, police, government. But in this case, surely, to > > >> show our bias so blatantly as to mention only one of the two victims > > >> of a "double murder" - this is rather foolish. As we go about seeking > > >> justice for every middle class/elite woman killed, we must not leave > > >> any signs that let the world guess that we don't care about the rest. > > >> > > >> Aditya, please note! > > >> > > >> best > > >> shivam > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Forwarded Message by Achint Anand - Headlines Today > > >> > > > >> > ****************************************************************** > > >> > > > >> > All of you are aware of the tragic passing away of our colleague > > Soumya > > >> > Viswanathan. > > >> > > > >> > A promising young Producer, Soumya was loved by her seniors and peers, > > >> and > > >> > revered by her juniors. Soumya was murdered while driving back home > > from > > >> > work after completing an unusually long shift at work, having stayed > > back > > >> to > > >> > help with her channel Headlines Today's coverage of the blasts in > > Gujarat > > >> > and Maharashtra on the 29th of September, 2008. > > >> > > > >> > She was killed by a bullet to her head in the wee hours of Tuesday, > > the > > >> 30th > > >> > of September. > > >> > > > >> > We are waiting for the police to find the person (or people) who > > >> committed > > >> > this dastardly act. We are waiting for answers, as we struggle to come > > to > > >> > terms with our dear friend's unfair death. > > >> > > > >> > But while we wait, we want to help the investigation. We want to do > > what > > >> we > > >> > can to do the only thing we can for Soumya – find the murderer, who is > > >> still > > >> > walking free. > > >> > > > >> > To that end, we want to launch a campaign – Justice for Soumya, of the > > >> sort > > >> > we have participated in on numerous occasions for the likes of Aarushi > > >> > Talwar, Jessica Lal, Nitish Katara, Priyadarshini Mattoo and others. > > >> > > > >> > This note is to invite you to join the campaign. This is to request > > you > > >> to > > >> > lend your voice, lend whatever power you have, to help us in our > > >> campaign. > > >> > > > >> > Come. Bring your friends. Bring whoever you think can help us. > > >> > > > >> > VENUE: The Press Club of India, Raisina Road, New Delhi > > >> > DATE: 4th October 2008 > > >> > TIME: 1.00pm > > >> > > > >> > From, > > >> > > > >> > Friends of Soumya Viswanathan > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 03:10:13 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >Subject: [Reader-list] Journalist stabbed >To: "sarai list" >Message-ID: > <6353c690810041440u189fb4edg338c9a3b0ce3d994 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >*Journalist stabbed* > >New Delhi (PTI): A journalist working with a private television channel was >on Saturday stabbed by unidentified persons and robbed him of his wallet and >mobile phone in south Delhi, police said. > >Sourabh Mishra, working as a sports journalist with Zee News, was attacked >by three unidentified persons who came in an autorickshaw, stabbed him and >took his wallet and mobile phone in Andrews Ganj, they said. > >Mishra suffered bruises on his face and hand, they said. > >However, the robbers managed to escape from the scene, they said, adding >that the injured has been admitted to a hospital, where his condition is >stated to be stable. > >A case has been registered and a hunt is on to nab the culprits. > >On Tuesday, Soumya Vishwanathan, a 27-year-old producer with 'Headlines >Today', was shot dead in her car in Vasant Kunj. > >Soumya, who was returning from her office, was found dead in her car which >rammed into the divider of the road. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:44:03 -0400 > From: "TaraPrakash" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. >To: "sarai list" >Message-ID: <7191BDD05F934B6CAA6B3FA07E24B425 at shabori> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; > reply-type=original > >I think the following I sent only to Nazneen. I am sincerely sorry for doing >it. I should have been very careful considering that Nazneen does not want >the list mails to be directed to her personal in box. I had no desire to do >that, sheer carelessness. Well, this is what I accidently sent to Nazneen >and not to the list earlier. >Regards >TaraPrakash > >Hi Nazo and all. Even though I am not Shuddha or Iram, I do not have their >kind of knowledge or eloquence, but I could not help writing on this thread, >so here is my unsolicited gibberish. > >I wonder if the Reader List provided any context for this article under >discussion. There was a post recently on the list which mentioned Walter >Benjamin and Adorno and in the same sentence suggested that some of the >current movements are sectarian and parochial in nature. That may or may not >be the context. Let us agree that Reader list need not provide any context >for posting of messages. It is a well ventilated list, and I would like to >thank Nazo for this fresh air. > >I thought the article under discussion was poking fun at the cynicism of the >currently prevalent theories. If it was talking about gibberish, the write >up was no better/worse than that; in other words, meta-gibberish. I wonder >if there is anything in the world which cannot be called gibberish. >It was, I thought, an example of, what I would like to call "counter >cynicism". Marxism stands in stark contrast against the ephamerality of post >modernism and other post * theories. If anybody thought Marxism was dead and >gone after disintegration of the USSR was/is absolutely wrong. >There still are Marxist thinkers/activists who believe > >"Dil na ummeed naheen nakaam hi to hai..." > > >Only this week we saw, what a staunch Republican called, "putting of another >coffin over the coffin of Reagan". Marxism may not have succeeded, >capitalism too will not remain unbridled was the message of the recent bail >out in the US. Reagan and Friedman have already died twice. They will die >many more times before Fukuyama's history will begin again. > >I completely agree with Nazo's following statement/question. > >"Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each >other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into >abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. >Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable because >one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, SC, >Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc." > >Yes, that is the logic. All of us fall prey to such a logic and magic. Nazo, >too, did when she said, "Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra >'them'?" All of us are "them" some time or the other, depending on what >lenses we are using to look at, from which angle we are looking. If in no >other way, we all are "them" in that we all feel free to express our >opinions. > >I do not agree with Nazo's suggestion that Arti indulged in name calling in >her response. ("but please tell me do calling (does) names serve any >purpose?" > >That may be my limitation of not being able to find what is not there, or to >be able to find even what is there. I think Arti never indulged in name >calling in her response. I hear Nazo calling names though, literally, >"Pawan, >Aditya, Kshemendra" et al. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nazneen Anand Shamsi" >To: "Aarti Sethi" >Cc: "Sarai" >Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:19 AM >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and > > everyone > > else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each > > other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by what > > they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only > > because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your conceptual > > understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially with > > whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or > > mills > > and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both marx > > and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have > > responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled pseudo > > post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or an > > out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose > > understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays one > > reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that > > because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and respect > > your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but please > > tell me do calling names serve any purpose? > > > > Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. > > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > > because > > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, > > SC, > > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I > > assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk to > > me > > or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as a > > 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you > > tagged > > me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these most > > honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. > > > > 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really too > > boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find all > > earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most of > > the > > times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest work > > boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on this > > or > > why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual capacity > > find boring? > > > > 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you posted > > this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up > > and > > down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I don't > > think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and > > down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though at > > times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. > > > > 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on > > the > > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank > > you > > for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) > > > > By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list > > Aarti? > > Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I assume, > > you > > are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list > > being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a > > liar > > when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared > > public space where people from different persuasions can come and engage? > > Do > > you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or > > many > > of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain > > preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be > > arrogantly > > snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have > > demonstrated > > 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) or > > engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your > > respected self but only as 'them'? > > > > I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared public > > space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, and > > no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' from > > you. > > > > 5. ' gibberish about marx ' > > > > Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda Aarti. > > Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn the > > intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect this > > sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. > > > > What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their > > gibberish > > about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' > > gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the > > meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized > > pedagogy > > often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. > > > > Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas > > still > > one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and > > breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and language. > > While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle of > > hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a > > market > > for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many > > begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. > > > > But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas that > > many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is often > > peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students who > > want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such > > 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. > > > > 6. 'Keep posting' > > > > I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a > > pleasure writing to you Aarti. > > > > Will eagerly look forward for your response. > > > > In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! > > > > Warm regards > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote: > > > >> Dear Nazneen, > >> > >> I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked > >> it. > >> I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a > >> generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when the > >> world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets > >> destabilized. > >> I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being > >> earnest > >> is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the > >> "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving flags, > >> and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put > >> it. > >> This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've > >> assogined yourself. > >> > >> Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the > >> history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till then > >> we > >> will have to consider comments such as - > >> > >> Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university > >>> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in > >>> turn > >>> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many > >>> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read > >>> just > >>> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that > >>> reader > >>> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up networking, > >>> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and that > >>> elusive tenure! > >>> > >> > >> > >> - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing the > >> sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as > >> "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the faux > >> ayyar persona you have made your own. > >> > >> I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) > >> Warmly > >> > >> Aarti > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and > >>> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of > >>> formatting > >>> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, > >>> > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >>> > >>> ****************************** > >>> > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >>> > >>> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid academic > >>> fads > >>> > >>> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need > >>> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] > >>> > >>> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the > >>> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on > >>> the > >>> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, > >>> but > >>> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these > >>> so-called > >>> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, > >>> and > >>> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of > >>> the > >>> rise and fall of these fashions. > >>> > >>> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic > >>> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an > >>> article > >>> or > >>> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than > >>> journals). > >>> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the > >>> true > >>> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one > >>> believes > >>> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will > >>> have > >>> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because > >>> most > >>> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years > >>> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible > >>> even > >>> as of 2002. > >>> > >>> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of articles > >>> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles > >>> that > >>> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the data > >>> on > >>> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge > >>> change > >>> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- > >>> then > >>> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw > >>> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp > >>> our > >>> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles being > >>> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the > >>> same > >>> -- > >>> a sustained decline must be real. > >>> > >>> Some thoughts: > >>> > >>> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- > >>> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's > >>> hard > >>> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in > >>> 2002, > >>> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems to > >>> be > >>> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a > >>> down-turn. > >>> > >>> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social > >>> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to > >>> fall > >>> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time > >>> frame > >>> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. > >>> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to > >>> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s > >>> an > >>> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long > >>> it > >>> had been festering there. > >>> > >>> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model > >>> for > >>> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an exogenous > >>> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that > >>> had > >>> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at the > >>> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population > >>> densities, > >>> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we wandered > >>> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued > >>> us > >>> for much longer than others. > >>> > >>> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of > >>> noise, > >>> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the vicissitudes > >>> of > >>> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made > >>> an > >>> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory Tower > >>> for > >>> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting > >>> the > >>> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the Berlin > >>> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was > >>> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its > >>> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. > >>> > >>> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in > >>> the > >>> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own > >>> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. > >>> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion > >>> others > >>> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due to > >>> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant > >>> at > >>> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. > >>> > >>> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is > >>> wrong. > >>> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough > >>> that > >>> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra > >>> the > >>> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, > >>> though, > >>> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of the > >>> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and > >>> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all that > >>> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or > >>> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers > >>> since > >>> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower > >>> rate > >>> in > >>> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even > >>> then > >>> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of > >>> depressing > >>> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some point, > >>> the > >>> fuckers will get theirs. > >>> > >>> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in a > >>> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent > >>> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you > >>> can't > >>> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as > >>> such -- > >>> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in > >>> grad > >>> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good > >>> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have > >>> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole > >>> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime > >>> soon. > >>> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and > >>> social > >>> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. > >>> > >>> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize > >>> that > >>> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles -- > >>> or > >>> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you wouldn't > >>> be > >>> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll > >>> students > >>> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among > >>> current > >>> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should > >>> compare > >>> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was > >>> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure > >>> they > >>> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just > >>> like > >>> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in > >>> reality, > >>> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are > >>> opting for greener pastures. > >>> > >>> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young > >>> people > >>> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable > >>> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If > >>> they > >>> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is > >>> still > >>> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of > >>> cooling > >>> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a > >>> less > >>> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to > >>> latch > >>> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, this > >>> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 > >>> at > >>> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among safe > >>> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in > >>> for > >>> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point > >>> (even > >>> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't > >>> even > >>> born when Marxism had already started to die. > >>> > >>> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative > >>> years > >>> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the > >>> mid-late > >>> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out > >>> from > >>> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off > >>> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly > >>> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize > >>> with > >>> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an > >>> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you > >>> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby > >>> Boomer > >>> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since > >>> their > >>> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human > >>> evolution > >>> -- > >>> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was > >>> eager > >>> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race > >>> after > >>> all. What a loser. > >>> > >>> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it > >>> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before > >>> then > >>> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the > >>> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 17 >******************************************* From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sun Oct 5 17:57:09 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:27:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0810050240k92d40f6r423c34eab8554ef3@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> <7191BDD05F934B6CAA6B3FA07E24B425@shabori> <5af37bb0810050240k92d40f6r423c34eab8554ef3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0810050527m16dcf78ci96550817a8d034d9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yasir, Wheat and chaff! Personally I would go for a wheat that has some chaff, for I am sure, as we all know, that flour from such combination is far more robust, than which is derived from say, just polished wheat! Having said that, I agree with you that more wheat needs to there, however, if one is relishing on rotis and parathas of ideas, then what goes for wheat and chaff can very easily be interchanged to suit one's disposition. You may do rice with less condoleeza but what will do with bush, that, I think is the question. Regards Nazo On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 10:40 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > Dear Nazo > > Fads are what they are. but how do you separate wheat from the chaff. You > hint at doing this in one para, but leave it to Popper: > > "Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas > still > one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and > breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and language. > While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle of > hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a market > for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many > begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance." > > ...but it sounds as if you have already given up in favour of chaff and > even > the wheat seems useless now. I would like to see the intellectual history > of > wheat including such tid bits as social security and national policies > providing roti if not a stimulus for a more equitable society. Rice will > also do with less condoleeza. > > best > > yasir > > > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 1:44 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > > I think the following I sent only to Nazneen. I am sincerely sorry for > > doing > > it. I should have been very careful considering that Nazneen does not > want > > the list mails to be directed to her personal in box. I had no desire to > do > > that, sheer carelessness. Well, this is what I accidently sent to Nazneen > > and not to the list earlier. > > Regards > > TaraPrakash > > > > Hi Nazo and all. Even though I am not Shuddha or Iram, I do not have > their > > kind of knowledge or eloquence, but I could not help writing on this > > thread, > > so here is my unsolicited gibberish. > > > > I wonder if the Reader List provided any context for this article under > > discussion. There was a post recently on the list which mentioned Walter > > Benjamin and Adorno and in the same sentence suggested that some of the > > current movements are sectarian and parochial in nature. That may or may > > not > > be the context. Let us agree that Reader list need not provide any > context > > for posting of messages. It is a well ventilated list, and I would like > to > > thank Nazo for this fresh air. > > > > I thought the article under discussion was poking fun at the cynicism of > > the > > currently prevalent theories. If it was talking about gibberish, the > write > > up was no better/worse than that; in other words, meta-gibberish. I > wonder > > if there is anything in the world which cannot be called gibberish. > > It was, I thought, an example of, what I would like to call "counter > > cynicism". Marxism stands in stark contrast against the ephamerality of > > post > > modernism and other post * theories. If anybody thought Marxism was dead > > and > > gone after disintegration of the USSR was/is absolutely wrong. > > There still are Marxist thinkers/activists who believe > > > > "Dil na ummeed naheen nakaam hi to hai..." > > > > > > Only this week we saw, what a staunch Republican called, "putting of > > another > > coffin over the coffin of Reagan". Marxism may not have succeeded, > > capitalism too will not remain unbridled was the message of the recent > bail > > out in the US. Reagan and Friedman have already died twice. They will die > > many more times before Fukuyama's history will begin again. > > > > I completely agree with Nazo's following statement/question. > > > > "Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an > abstraction. > > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > > because > > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, > SC, > > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc." > > > > Yes, that is the logic. All of us fall prey to such a logic and magic. > > Nazo, > > too, did when she said, "Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra > > 'them'?" All of us are "them" some time or the other, depending on what > > lenses we are using to look at, from which angle we are looking. If in no > > other way, we all are "them" in that we all feel free to express our > > opinions. > > > > I do not agree with Nazo's suggestion that Arti indulged in name calling > in > > her response. ("but please tell me do calling (does) names serve any > > purpose?" > > > > That may be my limitation of not being able to find what is not there, or > > to > > be able to find even what is there. I think Arti never indulged in name > > calling in her response. I hear Nazo calling names though, literally, > > "Pawan, > > Aditya, Kshemendra" et al. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Nazneen Anand Shamsi" > > To: "Aarti Sethi" > > Cc: "Sarai" > > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:19 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and > > > everyone > > > else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each > > > other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by > what > > > they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only > > > because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your > conceptual > > > understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially > with > > > whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or > > > mills > > > and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both > marx > > > and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have > > > responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled > > pseudo > > > post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or > an > > > out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose > > > understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays > > one > > > reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that > > > because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and > > respect > > > your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but > > please > > > tell me do calling names serve any purpose? > > > > > > Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with > each > > > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > > > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an > > abstraction. > > > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > > > because > > > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, > > > SC, > > > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I > > > assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk > to > > > me > > > or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as > a > > > 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you > > > tagged > > > me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these > most > > > honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. > > > > > > 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really > too > > > boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find > all > > > earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most > of > > > the > > > times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest > work > > > boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on > this > > > or > > > why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual > capacity > > > find boring? > > > > > > 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you > > posted > > > this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up > > > and > > > down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I > > don't > > > think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and > > > down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though > > at > > > times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. > > > > > > 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on > > > the > > > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank > > > you > > > for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) > > > > > > By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list > > > Aarti? > > > Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I > assume, > > > you > > > are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list > > > being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a > > > liar > > > when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared > > > public space where people from different persuasions can come and > engage? > > > Do > > > you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or > > > many > > > of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain > > > preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be > > > arrogantly > > > snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have > > > demonstrated > > > 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) > > or > > > engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your > > > respected self but only as 'them'? > > > > > > I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared > public > > > space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, > > and > > > no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' > > from > > > you. > > > > > > 5. ' gibberish about marx ' > > > > > > Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda > Aarti. > > > Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn > the > > > intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect > > this > > > sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. > > > > > > What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their > > > gibberish > > > about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' > > > gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the > > > meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized > > > pedagogy > > > often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. > > > > > > Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas > > > still > > > one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and > > > breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and > > language. > > > While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle > > of > > > hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a > > > market > > > for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many > > > begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. > > > > > > But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas > > that > > > many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is > > often > > > peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students > who > > > want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such > > > 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. > > > > > > 6. 'Keep posting' > > > > > > I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a > > > pleasure writing to you Aarti. > > > > > > Will eagerly look forward for your response. > > > > > > In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! > > > > > > Warm regards > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Nazneen, > > >> > > >> I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked > > >> it. > > >> I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel > a > > >> generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when > > the > > >> world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets > > >> destabilized. > > >> I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being > > >> earnest > > >> is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the > > >> "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving > > flags, > > >> and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently > put > > >> it. > > >> This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur > you've > > >> assogined yourself. > > >> > > >> Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on > the > > >> history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till > > then > > >> we > > >> will have to consider comments such as - > > >> > > >> Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How > university > > >>> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which > in > > >>> turn > > >>> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing > (many > > >>> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read > > >>> just > > >>> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that > > >>> reader > > >>> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up > > networking, > > >>> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and > > that > > >>> elusive tenure! > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing > > the > > >> sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as > > >> "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the > > faux > > >> ayyar persona you have made your own. > > >> > > >> I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) > > >> Warmly > > >> > > >> Aarti > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, > and > > >>> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of > > >>> formatting > > >>> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, > > >>> > > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > > >>> > > >>> ****************************** > > >>> > > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > > >>> > > >>> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid > > academic > > >>> fads > > >>> > > >>> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I > need > > >>> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] > > >>> > > >>> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken > the > > >>> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held > on > > >>> the > > >>> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound > strange, > > >>> but > > >>> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these > > >>> so-called > > >>> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the > news, > > >>> and > > >>> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs > of > > >>> the > > >>> rise and fall of these fashions. > > >>> > > >>> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of > academic > > >>> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an > > >>> article > > >>> or > > >>> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than > > >>> journals). > > >>> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the > > >>> true > > >>> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one > > >>> believes > > >>> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators > will > > >>> have > > >>> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward > because > > >>> most > > >>> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 > years > > >>> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are > visible > > >>> even > > >>> as of 2002. > > >>> > > >>> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of > > articles > > >>> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of > articles > > >>> that > > >>> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the > > data > > >>> on > > >>> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge > > >>> change > > >>> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades > -- > > >>> then > > >>> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the > raw > > >>> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may > warp > > >>> our > > >>> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles > > being > > >>> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the > > >>> same > > >>> -- > > >>> a sustained decline must be real. > > >>> > > >>> Some thoughts: > > >>> > > >>> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- > > >>> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but > it's > > >>> hard > > >>> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady > in > > >>> 2002, > > >>> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems > > to > > >>> be > > >>> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a > > >>> down-turn. > > >>> > > >>> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social > > >>> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began > to > > >>> fall > > >>> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time > > >>> frame > > >>> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were > founded. > > >>> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to > > >>> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the > 1990s > > >>> an > > >>> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how > long > > >>> it > > >>> had been festering there. > > >>> > > >>> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model > > >>> for > > >>> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an > > exogenous > > >>> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics > that > > >>> had > > >>> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at > > the > > >>> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population > > >>> densities, > > >>> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we > > wandered > > >>> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had > plagued > > >>> us > > >>> for much longer than others. > > >>> > > >>> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of > > >>> noise, > > >>> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the > > vicissitudes > > >>> of > > >>> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it > made > > >>> an > > >>> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory > > Tower > > >>> for > > >>> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism > halting > > >>> the > > >>> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the > > Berlin > > >>> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate > was > > >>> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its > > >>> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. > > >>> > > >>> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist > in > > >>> the > > >>> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their > own > > >>> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. > > >>> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion > > >>> others > > >>> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due > > to > > >>> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be > significant > > >>> at > > >>> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. > > >>> > > >>> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is > > >>> wrong. > > >>> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex > enough > > >>> that > > >>> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed > (contra > > >>> the > > >>> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, > > >>> though, > > >>> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of > > the > > >>> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and > > >>> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all > > that > > >>> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism > or > > >>> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers > > >>> since > > >>> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower > > >>> rate > > >>> in > > >>> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and > even > > >>> then > > >>> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of > > >>> depressing > > >>> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some > > point, > > >>> the > > >>> fuckers will get theirs. > > >>> > > >>> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study > in > > a > > >>> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the > recent > > >>> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you > > >>> can't > > >>> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as > > >>> such -- > > >>> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in > > >>> grad > > >>> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good > > >>> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories > have > > >>> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the > whole > > >>> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime > > >>> soon. > > >>> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and > > >>> social > > >>> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. > > >>> > > >>> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must > realize > > >>> that > > >>> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles > > -- > > >>> or > > >>> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you > > wouldn't > > >>> be > > >>> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll > > >>> students > > >>> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among > > >>> current > > >>> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should > > >>> compare > > >>> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that > was > > >>> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm > sure > > >>> they > > >>> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just > > >>> like > > >>> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in > > >>> reality, > > >>> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and > are > > >>> opting for greener pastures. > > >>> > > >>> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young > > >>> people > > >>> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the > impressionable > > >>> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If > > >>> they > > >>> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is > > >>> still > > >>> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of > > >>> cooling > > >>> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use > a > > >>> less > > >>> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined > to > > >>> latch > > >>> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, > > this > > >>> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or > 1989 > > >>> at > > >>> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among > > safe > > >>> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go > in > > >>> for > > >>> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some > point > > >>> (even > > >>> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today > weren't > > >>> even > > >>> born when Marxism had already started to die. > > >>> > > >>> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative > > >>> years > > >>> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the > > >>> mid-late > > >>> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out > > >>> from > > >>> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write > off > > >>> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're > mostly > > >>> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather > socialize > > >>> with > > >>> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have > an > > >>> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that > you > > >>> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby > > >>> Boomer > > >>> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since > > >>> their > > >>> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human > > >>> evolution > > >>> -- > > >>> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, > was > > >>> eager > > >>> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race > > >>> after > > >>> all. What a loser. > > >>> > > >>> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though > it > > >>> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before > > >>> then > > >>> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make > the > > >>> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sun Oct 5 18:17:02 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:47:02 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. In-Reply-To: <7191BDD05F934B6CAA6B3FA07E24B425@shabori> References: <169ff67c0810031651x64f58ce8tb98780a5b4a1ac9d@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810040445r4939884cnc67e21cd87fc2659@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0810040719r4c81a687q701d72f4264af040@mail.gmail.com> <7191BDD05F934B6CAA6B3FA07E24B425@shabori> Message-ID: <169ff67c0810050547t7010054cu6bbf7f854aa61269@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taraprakash, Thank you for disagreeing with me, on 'name calling'. You are right, I suppose, I should not have indulged literally in 'name calling' or should we say calling names, however, my intent was to pose a question on Aarti's remark, that in case, if I want a discussion on some topics then, 'many of us', on the reader list will be happy to respond. I was just wondering, who these, 'us' are. Hence, 'I hear Nazo calling names though', will not hold, as these names were not called in an assertive manner, as you perhaps suggest, but rather in an interrogative sense. In other words, although, I clubbed names of some people on this list, I do not know, hence I am not sure or very unsure that, whether that clubbing was valid or not. Regards Nazo On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:44 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > I think the following I sent only to Nazneen. I am sincerely sorry for > doing > it. I should have been very careful considering that Nazneen does not want > the list mails to be directed to her personal in box. I had no desire to do > that, sheer carelessness. Well, this is what I accidently sent to Nazneen > and not to the list earlier. > Regards > TaraPrakash > > Hi Nazo and all. Even though I am not Shuddha or Iram, I do not have their > kind of knowledge or eloquence, but I could not help writing on this > thread, > so here is my unsolicited gibberish. > > I wonder if the Reader List provided any context for this article under > discussion. There was a post recently on the list which mentioned Walter > Benjamin and Adorno and in the same sentence suggested that some of the > current movements are sectarian and parochial in nature. That may or may > not > be the context. Let us agree that Reader list need not provide any context > for posting of messages. It is a well ventilated list, and I would like to > thank Nazo for this fresh air. > > I thought the article under discussion was poking fun at the cynicism of > the > currently prevalent theories. If it was talking about gibberish, the write > up was no better/worse than that; in other words, meta-gibberish. I wonder > if there is anything in the world which cannot be called gibberish. > It was, I thought, an example of, what I would like to call "counter > cynicism". Marxism stands in stark contrast against the ephamerality of > post > modernism and other post * theories. If anybody thought Marxism was dead > and > gone after disintegration of the USSR was/is absolutely wrong. > There still are Marxist thinkers/activists who believe > > "Dil na ummeed naheen nakaam hi to hai..." > > > Only this week we saw, what a staunch Republican called, "putting of > another > coffin over the coffin of Reagan". Marxism may not have succeeded, > capitalism too will not remain unbridled was the message of the recent bail > out in the US. Reagan and Friedman have already died twice. They will die > many more times before Fukuyama's history will begin again. > > I completely agree with Nazo's following statement/question. > > "Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an abstraction. > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > because > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, SC, > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc." > > Yes, that is the logic. All of us fall prey to such a logic and magic. > Nazo, > too, did when she said, "Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra > 'them'?" All of us are "them" some time or the other, depending on what > lenses we are using to look at, from which angle we are looking. If in no > other way, we all are "them" in that we all feel free to express our > opinions. > > I do not agree with Nazo's suggestion that Arti indulged in name calling in > her response. ("but please tell me do calling (does) names serve any > purpose?" > > That may be my limitation of not being able to find what is not there, or > to > be able to find even what is there. I think Arti never indulged in name > calling in her response. I hear Nazo calling names though, literally, > "Pawan, > Aditya, Kshemendra" et al. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nazneen Anand Shamsi" > To: "Aarti Sethi" > Cc: "Sarai" > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:19 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Stupid Intellectual Fads. > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > 1. Thank you for your response. I think it would do both of us and > > everyone > > else on this list a lot of good, if we stop assuming notions about each > > other. It is no one's case if we keeping on judging everyone else by what > > they forward on this list. I hold you in high regard, because and only > > because of your thoughts. Your clarity in argumentation. Your conceptual > > understanding. Your dogged persistence to engage and talk especially with > > whom you disagree. I am not bothered whether you sleep with a marx or > > mills > > and boons under your pillow. Insofar as I am concerned, I think both marx > > and mills are important pieces of literature. You know I could have > > responded hypothetically to your mail, by calling you a self styled > pseudo > > post colonialist, post modernist, post feminist, hyper textual diva or an > > out of work, bored, net slave, or an arrogant propertied vermin whose > > understainding of marx is restriced to a summary reading of few essays > one > > reads in political science 101, but I will not and will never do that > > because no matter who you are, I still want to engage with you and > respect > > your word, read carefully and find time to respond with concern but > please > > tell me do calling names serve any purpose? > > > > Is it not the logic or rather the magic of the state to engage with each > > other like this. First create abstractions, then push people into > > abstractions and then talk to them as if one is talking to an > abstraction. > > Everything else goes for a toss. So in the end one feels comfortable > > because > > one is not talking to a human being anymore. One is engaging with a ST, > > SC, > > Hindu, Muslim, Naxal, Maoists, terrorist, KP etc. In your case could I > > assume, that from now onwards, every time you will address me or talk to > > me > > or respond to my mails- my subjectivity will be viewed through just as a > > 'faux ayyar persona', or 'the agent provocateur'? I am glad that you > > tagged > > me as such Aarti, but then again, I think I am not worthy for these most > > honourable appellations. Just Nazneen is more than enough. > > > > 2. I want to take issue with you for your, ' being earnest is really too > > boring ' remark. Please tell me what do you mean by this? Do you find all > > earnest work boring all the times or some earnest working boring most of > > the > > times or most earnest work boring some of the times or some earnest work > > boring some of the times. I could not understand your positioning on this > > or > > why should any gives a dime's worth what you in your individual capacity > > find boring? > > > > 3. Please do not suspect anything about my writings, 'I suspect you > posted > > this hoping that the "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up > > and > > down'. If you 'suspect' anything about my word the please ASK. No, I > don't > > think marx-vadis are monkeys with an inherent tendency to 'jump up and > > down'. I regard them as highly articulate people, one feels sad, though > at > > times, to see them still struggling with that same old ideology. > > > > 4. 'Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on > > the > > history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing'. (Thank > > you > > for your condescension Aarti, but no thanks!) > > > > By the way, could you please tell me, who are these 'us' on this list > > Aarti? > > Does that make me, Pawan, Aditya, Kshemendra 'them'? So, could I assume, > > you > > are, in any way implying that all this recent talk of sarai reader list > > being public list is hogwash, that Shuddha is rank hypocrite and Iram a > > liar > > when these people were waxing eloquent about this list being a shared > > public space where people from different persuasions can come and engage? > > Do > > you in any way want me to gather from your response that reader list or > > many > > of all those who are 'us' on the reader list only welcome certain > > preordained ideas and those who question this status quo will be > > arrogantly > > snubbed by 'I will not respond to your mail' because 'you' have > > demonstrated > > 'unlimited energy' (now writing long mails is also a crime, I suppose!) > or > > engaged by occassional kind benevolence of informed souls, such as your > > respected self but only as 'them'? > > > > I am absolutely earnest in my belief that reader list is a shared public > > space and I would like to believe in what Shuddha and Iram had to say, > and > > no I don't find that boring. And I would like to hear more about 'us' > from > > you. > > > > 5. ' gibberish about marx ' > > > > Please do not manipulate other people's words to suit your agenda Aarti. > > Please! Please abstain from casually quoting so as to harm or impugn the > > intent of a person's written word. It's uncalled for. I do not expect > this > > sort of a conduct from you. Please do not let me down. > > > > What did I write? I wrote, 'professors infect students with their > > gibberish > > about marx' and I stand by this. And I think if one just takes just ' > > gibberish about marx ' from this sentence, one changes the import, the > > meaning and the intended message. Which was this- institutionalized > > pedagogy > > often produces rarefied form of knowledge which is perhaps alienating. > > > > Marx's thought was brillaint! Even if one do not believe in his ideas > > still > > one reads for its eloquence and earnestness and for its irreverence and > > breadth and for its composition and style and for its poetry and > language. > > While writing that book he dug a deep conceptual well but with a needle > of > > hard work and perseverance. And this thought still sells, there's a > > market > > for this thought. Many people love it and if they don't then many > > begrudgingly acknowldege it, like popper did, for instance. > > > > But sadly there exists no mass market for often, half processed ideas > that > > many university poffessors churn out as 'critical thought', which is > often > > peddled as course books with a certain two penny sales from students who > > want to charm institutional power for a career. I often find many such > > 'marxist' ideas not earnest enough and hence deeply alienating. > > > > 6. 'Keep posting' > > > > I would like to extend the same invitation to you. As always, it was a > > pleasure writing to you Aarti. > > > > Will eagerly look forward for your response. > > > > In all ' earnestness ' ofcourse! > > > > Warm regards > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote: > > > >> Dear Nazneen, > >> > >> I liked the article but I think we would disagree on why we both liked > >> it. > >> I read it as a tongue-in-cheek assessment of how certain ideas propel a > >> generation or have a valance at a certain point of time and then when > the > >> world changes, their location at the center of knowledge gets > >> destabilized. > >> I don't take these things too seriously in the first place and being > >> earnest > >> is really too boring But I suspect you posted this hoping that the > >> "marx-vadis" on the list would immediately jump up and down waving > flags, > >> and loudly lamenting the "end of history" as Fukuyama so eloquently put > >> it. > >> This would square well with the persona of the agent provocateur you've > >> assogined yourself. > >> > >> Regardless, when you actually wish to have an engaged discussion on the > >> history of ideas I'm sure many of us will be more than willing. Till > then > >> we > >> will have to consider comments such as - > >> > >> Here's an article I read about stupid intellectual fads. How university > >>> professors infect students with their gibberish about marx etc which in > >>> turn > >>> results in years of theorizing, conferencing, journal publishing (many > >>> friends, by the way mockingly argue that, journals articles are read > >>> just > >>> two and a half people, the writer, the editor of the journal and that > >>> reader > >>> who starts and leaves midway) and a yapping career marked up > networking, > >>> networking, networking with an occasional book or two thrown in and > that > >>> elusive tenure! > >>> > >> > >> > >> - where you hope to get a raise out of us by summarily characterizing > the > >> sweep, breadth and history of 200 years of philosophy and praxis as > >> "gibberish about marx' and "stupid intellectual fads" as part of the > faux > >> ayyar persona you have made your own. > >> > >> I really liked the text. Do keep posting :) > >> Warmly > >> > >> Aarti > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> The essay is called: Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and > >>> other stupid academic fads, I could not copy graphs because of > >>> formatting > >>> issues on the readerlist. But please check them out at, > >>> > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >>> > >>> ****************************** > >>> > >>> http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/09/graphs-on-death-of-marxism.php > >>> > >>> Graphs on the death of Marxism, postmodernism, and other stupid > academic > >>> fads > >>> > >>> [*Note*: I'm rushing this out before the school week starts, as I need > >>> sleep, so if it seems unedited, that's why.] > >>> > >>> We are living in very exciting times -- at long last, we've broken the > >>> stranglehold that a variety of silly Blank Slate theories have held on > >>> the > >>> arts, humanities, and social sciences. To some, this may sound strange, > >>> but > >>> things have decisively changed within the past 10 years, and these > >>> so-called > >>> theories are now moribund. To let those out-of-the-loop in on the news, > >>> and > >>> to quantify what insiders have already suspected, I've drawn graphs of > >>> the > >>> rise and fall of these fashions. > >>> > >>> I searched the archives of JSTOR, which houses a cornucopia of academic > >>> journals, for certain keywords that appear in the full text of an > >>> article > >>> or > >>> review (since sometimes the big ideas appear in books rather than > >>> journals). > >>> This provides an estimate of how popular the idea is -- not only the > >>> true > >>> believers, but their opponents too, will use the term. Once no one > >>> believes > >>> it anymore, then the adherents, opponents, and neutral spectators will > >>> have > >>> less occasion to use the term. I excluded data from 2003 onward because > >>> most > >>> JSTOR journals don't deposit their articles in JSTOR until 3 to 5 years > >>> after the original publication. Still, most of the declines are visible > >>> even > >>> as of 2002. > >>> > >>> Admittedly, a better estimate would be to measure the number of > articles > >>> with the term in a given year, divided by the total number of articles > >>> that > >>> JSTOR has for that year, to yield a frequency. But I don't have the > data > >>> on > >>> total articles. However, on time-scales when we don't expect a huge > >>> change > >>> in the total number of articles published -- say, over a few decades -- > >>> then > >>> we can take the total to be approximately constant and use only the raw > >>> counts of articles with the keyword. Crucially, although this may warp > >>> our > >>> view of an increasing trend -- which could be due to more articles > being > >>> written in total, while the frequency of those of interest stays the > >>> same > >>> -- > >>> a sustained decline must be real. > >>> > >>> Some thoughts: > >>> > >>> First, there are two exceptions to the overall pattern of decline -- > >>> orientalism and post-colonialism. The former may be declining, but it's > >>> hard > >>> to say one way or the other. The latter, though, was holding steady in > >>> 2002, > >>> although its growth rate had clearly slowed down, so its demise seems > to > >>> be > >>> only a matter of time -- by 2010 at the latest, it should show a > >>> down-turn. > >>> > >>> Second, aside from Marxism, which peaked in 1988, and social > >>> constructionism, which declined starting in 2002 *, the others began to > >>> fall > >>> from roughly 1993 to 1998. It is astonishing that such a narrow time > >>> frame > >>> saw the fall of fashions that varied so much in when they were founded. > >>> Marxism, psychoanalysis, and feminism are very old compared to > >>> deconstruction or postmodernism, yet it was as though during the 1990s > >>> an > >>> academia-wide clean-up swept away all the bullshit, no matter how long > >>> it > >>> had been festering there. > >>> > >>> If we wanted to model this, we would probably use an S-I-R type model > >>> for > >>> the spread of infectious diseases. But we'd have to include an > exogenous > >>> shock sometime during the 1990s since it's unlikely that epidemics that > >>> had > >>> begun 100 years apart would, of their own inner workings, decline at > the > >>> same time. It's as if we started to live in sparser population > >>> densities, > >>> where diseases old and new could not spread so easily, or if we > wandered > >>> onto an antibiotic that cured of us diseases, some of which had plagued > >>> us > >>> for much longer than others. > >>> > >>> Third, notice how simple most of the curves look -- few show lots of > >>> noise, > >>> or the presence of smaller-scale cycles. That's despite the > vicissitudes > >>> of > >>> politics, economics, and other social changes -- hardly any of it made > >>> an > >>> impact on the world of ideas. I guess they don't call it the Ivory > Tower > >>> for > >>> nothing. About the only case you could make is for McCarthyism halting > >>> the > >>> growth of Marxist ideas during most of the 1950s. The fall of the > Berlin > >>> Wall does not explain why Marxism declined then -- its growth rate was > >>> already grinding to a halt for the previous decade, compared to its > >>> explosion during the 1960s and '70s. > >>> > >>> Still, it could be that there was a general anti-communist zeitgeist in > >>> the > >>> 1950s, so that academics would have cooled off to Marxism of their own > >>> accord, not because they were afraid of McCarthy or whoever else. > >>> Importantly, that's only one plausible link -- there are a billion > >>> others > >>> that don't pan out, so it may be that our plausible link happened due > to > >>> chance: when you test 1000 correlations, 5 of them will be significant > >>> at > >>> the 0.005 level, even though they're only the result of chance. > >>> > >>> This suggests that a "great man theory" of intellectual history is > >>> wrong. > >>> Surely someone needs to invent the theory, and it may be complex enough > >>> that > >>> if that person hadn't existed, the theory wouldn't have existed (contra > >>> the > >>> view that somebody or other would've invented Marxism). After that, > >>> though, > >>> we write a system of differential equations to model the dynamics of > the > >>> classes of individuals involved -- perhaps just two, believers and > >>> non-believers -- and these interactions between individuals are all > that > >>> matter. How many persuasive tracts were there against postmodernism or > >>> Marxism, for example? And yet none of those convinced the believers > >>> since > >>> the time wasn't right. Postmodernism was already growing at a slower > >>> rate > >>> in > >>> 1995 when the Sokal Affair put its silliness in the spotlight, and even > >>> then > >>> its growth rate didn't decline even faster as a result. Kind of > >>> depressing > >>> for iconoclasts -- but at least you can rest assured that at some > point, > >>> the > >>> fuckers will get theirs. > >>> > >>> Fourth, the sudden decline of all the big-shot theories you'd study in > a > >>> literary theory or critical theory class is certainly behind the recent > >>> angst of arts and humanities grad students. Without a big theory, you > >>> can't > >>> pretend you have specialized training and shouldn't be treated as > >>> such -- > >>> high school English teachers may be fine with that, but if you're in > >>> grad > >>> school, that's admitting you failed as an academic. You want a good > >>> reputation. Isn't it strange, though, that no replacement theories have > >>> filled the void? That's because everyone now understands that the whole > >>> thing was a big joke, and aren't going to be suckered again anytime > >>> soon. > >>> Now the generalizing and biological approaches to the humanities and > >>> social > >>> sciences are dominant -- but that's for another post. > >>> > >>> Also, as you sense all of the big theories are dying, you must realize > >>> that > >>> you have no future: you'll be increasingly unable to publish articles > -- > >>> or > >>> have others cite you -- and even if you became a professor, you > wouldn't > >>> be > >>> able to recruit grad students into your pyramid scheme, or enroll > >>> students > >>> in your classes, since their interest would be even lower than among > >>> current > >>> students. Someone who knows more about intellectual history should > >>> compare > >>> arts and humanities grad students today to the priestly caste that was > >>> becoming obsolete as Europe became more rational and secular. I'm sure > >>> they > >>> rationalized their angst as a spiritual or intellectual crisis, just > >>> like > >>> today's grad students might say that they had an epiphany -- but in > >>> reality, > >>> they're just recognizing how bleak their economic prospects are and are > >>> opting for greener pastures. > >>> > >>> Fifth and last, I don't know about the rest of you, but I find young > >>> people > >>> today very refreshing. Let's look at 18 year-olds -- the impressionable > >>> college freshmen, who could be infected by their dopey professors. If > >>> they > >>> begin freshman year just 1 year after the theory's peak, the idea is > >>> still > >>> very popular, so they'll get infected. If we allow, say 5 years of > >>> cooling > >>> off and decay, professors won't talk about it so much, or will be use a > >>> less > >>> strident tone of voice, so that only the students who were destined to > >>> latch > >>> on to some stupid theory will get infected. Depending on the trend, > this > >>> makes the safe cohort born in 1975 at the oldest (for Marxism), or 1989 > >>> at > >>> the youngest (for social constructionism). And obviously even among > safe > >>> cohorts, some are safer than others -- people my age (27) may not go in > >>> for > >>> Marxism much, but have heard of it or taken it seriously at some point > >>> (even > >>> if to argue against it intellectually). But 18 year-olds today weren't > >>> even > >>> born when Marxism had already started to die. > >>> > >>> It's easy to fossilize your picture of the world from your formative > >>> years > >>> of 15 to 24, but things change. If you turned off the radio in the > >>> mid-late > >>> '90s, you missed four years of great rock and rap music that came out > >>> from > >>> 2003 to 2006 (although now you can keep it off again). If you write off > >>> dating a 21 year-old grad student on the assumption that they're mostly > >>> angry feminist hags, you're missing out. And if you'd rather socialize > >>> with > >>> people your own age because younger people are too immature to have an > >>> intelligent discussion -- ask yourself when the last time was that you > >>> didn't have to dance around all kinds of topics with Gen-X or Baby > >>> Boomer > >>> peers because of the moronic beliefs they've been infected with since > >>> their > >>> young adult years? Try talking to a college student about human > >>> evolution > >>> -- > >>> they're pretty open-minded. My almost-30 housemate, by comparison, was > >>> eager > >>> to hear that what I'm studying would show that there's no master race > >>> after > >>> all. What a loser. > >>> > >>> * I started the graph of social constructionism at 1960, even though it > >>> extends back to 1876, since it was always at a very low level before > >>> then > >>> (less than 5 per year, often 0). Including these points didn't make the > >>> recent decline so apparent in the graph, so out they went. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sun Oct 5 18:36:34 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:06:34 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Centering the border? Message-ID: <169ff67c0810050606j40e169a7r3ab3dd691617b987@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Could a nation's border be located at the heart of a city? Pasted below, is a review of two books on cultural history of airports. The review titled, Dreams of leaving, explore questions not only about the history of airports or what thoughts went into designing them but also ponders about how have nation states managed this international border located in various cities. Consider this- 'between 1969 and 1978, there were 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, and a new paradigm in airport design.' Regards Nazo ******************************** http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2008/09/naked-airport-gordon-politics Dreams of leaving Owen Hatherley Published 25 September 2008 Naked Airport by Alastair Gordon Politics at the Airport Edited by Mark B Salter One of the saddest stories of the 20th century is the fate of air travel. In 1900 it was a dream, feverishly speculated upon, subject to all manner of Jules Verne imaginings; by 1999 it was a chore, a tedious, uncomfortable ritual undertaken in order to get from A to B. A large portion of the blame for this depressing non-event can be laid at the airport, that warren-like combination of the shopping mall and the high-security prison, which is the focus in Britain for a tortured air-angst every summer. In 2008, what Evening Standard headline writers might pithily call "Heathrow chaos" was centred on the botched opening of the new Terminal Five. Designed by Mike Davies at Rogers Stirk Harbour, it was only the second aesthetically distinguished structure at Heathrow - which ranges grimly from the ridiculously inappropriate red-brick mannerisms of the control tower and the original terminals to the claustrophobic hell of Terminal Four. Finally - around 50 years after Owen Williams's brutalist BOAC hangar - a decent building. Inside, Terminal Five is majestic: a thrillingly Constructivist space, with huge spans of glass and steel, open to the expanse of the surrounding airfield. Yet within weeks of opening, 28,000 bags were lost, and 500 flights cancelled. And to ensure that people milling around in limbo keep themselves busy spending money, the terminal only has 700 public seats. Today, amid the airline bankruptcies, an advert declares "Terminal Five is working", as if we should be impressed. This tragicomic distinction between the airport as (sometimes) designed: as metaphor for speed, transience and progress; and airport as used: as mall, panopticon and fiercely guarded border, runs through Alastair Gordon's brilliant Naked Airport. This is an impressively illustrated, comprehensive "cultural history" of airports as buildings, from the earliest days of makeshift sheds and hangars to the vast, glassy terminals designed by architectural multinationals such as Foster + Partners. The book's narrative begins two decades after the Wright brothers, and after the widespread deployment of fighter-planes in the First World War. The airport became a focus for speculation about design and modernity between the 1910s and the 1930s, appropriately at a time when architects were full of futurist fantasies about cities in which flight and movement determined form. Unsurprisingly, the earliest of these speculative schemes were those of the Italian Futurists. The draughtsman Antonio Sant'Elia's still stunning cities of ruthless modernity tended to feature airports in very inappropriate places. Gordon notes that few architects had serious knowledge of the mundane practicalities of landing and take-off. Le Corbusier, whose insistence that "an airport should be naked" provides the book's title, proposed that an airport be at the heart of a city, much like a rail terminus. In his 1922 design project, "Contemporary City for Three Million Inhabitants", the airport is at the centre of a Cartesian grid of skyscrapers, with the planes flying dangerously close to the glass walls. Meanwhile, actual flights and actual terminals at this point were a strange combination of shabby and aristocratic. Lindbergh's transatlantic flight ended with his landing on a mud track, while early flyers were almost always members of the upper-crust, usually either Americans taking advantage of the Monroe Doctrine to laze in the Caribbean, or British and French travellers sunning themselves in the colonies. One decidedly racist 1920s poster for PanAm depicts a grinning black porter taking the bags of stylised, glamorous figures. The Jazz Age's flappers and flyers travelled through shoddy airfields, via clumsily neoclassical terminals. Gordon argues that the first place truly to find an appropriate form for the airport was Europe. Glass and concrete created calm, rationalist spaces, without unnecessary reference to past forms. By the 1930s, Amsterdam or Hamburg were leading the world, making New York and Washington, for all their surface glitter, look staid. Gordon devotes a whole chapter to the Roosevelt administration's interventionist response. Massive public spending and nationalisation created a network of publicly owned fac ilities such as Washington's "People's Airport". These, although they still hedged their bets stylistically between reassuring classicism and vertiginous modernity, were at least vastly more efficient than their colonial-style precursors. Gordon notes that, as ever, war was a motor for technological progress in airport design, particularly in the Axis countries. From 1936, Berlin-Tempelhof was the world's largest airport, in a modernised classical style that would be dubbed "Luftwaffe Modern", as nobody was in any doubt about why Germany needed such a huge facility; and in early 1940s Italy, Pier Luigi Nervi designed intricate, gravity-defying han gars that would greatly influence a generation of postwar architects. The author also finds intriguing material on the camouflaging of American airports, against the Japanese or German attack that never came - disguising them as residential exurbs, which in turn gave way to actual exurbs growing round the naked airports themselves after the war. The most fascinating chapters are those that deal with the postwar years, where within a decade the airport went from the most optimistic space in America to the site of hijackings, security and surveillance. Naked Airport has much on Eero Saarinen's breathtaking TWA Terminal at JFK, a swooping expressionistic fantasy - not only does a brief autobiographical description of it open the book, but a chapter on the "Jet Age" features incredible illustrations of this improbable building. Designed as a gigantic concrete bird, it provided the most emblematic structure of a semi-fictional world of allegedly willing air hostesses, fetishistic synthetic uniforms, and wildly futuristic designs. Today, it serves as the unacknowledged blueprint for the career of the currently fashionable Spanish engineer-auteur Santiago Calatrava. Yet between 1969 and 1978, there were 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, and a new paradigm in airport design. Gordon claims that the manager of Dallas/Fort Worth took as a model an advert depicting a passenger moving seamlessly from car to port to plane, without any contact with the outside world. After the shock of terrorism, and Jimmy Carter's deregulation of US airlines, airports became stealthy, paranoid structures, centred on shopping and surveillance. The book outlines how easily the 9/11 hijackers passed through security, so another level of increasingly tedious and invasive frisking and scanning arrived in the aftermath. Meanwhile, the seemingly more optimistic models - the glass hangars of the 1990s and into the 21st century, by Rogers, Foster, Calatrava et al - have their own sinister underside. Gordon notes that Chek Lap Kok, Foster's huge Hong Kong sky-city, was constructed by helots, whose standard of workmanship was unimpressive - within a year, the building was a laughing stock. The constant expansion of the airport is as spatially rapacious as it is ecologically disastrous, to the point where it becomes difficult to pinpoint exactly where it begins and ends, as anyone disturbed by the in-train films and muzak on the Heathrow Express train will have noticed. The extremely bleak prognosis that ends Naked Airport is shared by Politics at the Airport, a collection of academic papers edited by Mark B Salter. >From the start, the editor (unfairly) classes Naked Airport as a work of technocratic boosterism, and the book sniffily dismisses Marc Augé and J G Ballard's ambiguous eulogies to airports as seamless, transient, clean and serene "non-places" as the perspective of the privileged. Instead, Salter and his contributors - mostly specialists in the study of surveillance and security - concentrate on the spatial politics of the airport after 9/11. Politics at the Airport stresses that, in Deleuze and Guattari's terms, the airport both "deterritorialises" and "reterritorialises". It might appear to the frequent traveller as a smooth international zone under a steel and glass canopy, but to the asylum-seeker or the terrorist suspect, the airport is an effective high- security border with attached prison. Colin J Bennett's essay notes that the US government's lists prohibiting flight have included Bolivia's socialist president Evo Morales, children, and anyone with the name David Nelson. Gallya Lahav writes on how an intricate system of private-public partnerships means an all-pervasive retail obsession coexists with the armed might of the state in the same space. Others profile the recent use of a "biometrics" that makes the body itself the locus of security, with passengers being identified by scans of the iris - it seems airports are taking their inspiration from Philip K Dick's stories of non-people condemned in non-places. Politics at the Airport's blizzard of acronyms and academic name-checks belies its importance as a reminder that the airport is a deeply sinister space, no matter how much architectural "transparency" might try to restore some of its tarnished glamour. The final essay, Gillian Fuller's "Welcome to Windows 2.1" takes a critical look at the Foster/Rogers rhetoric of transparency, which "alternates between an illuminating display of what was previously hidden to the dark suspicions of 'what have you got to hide?'''. With that, we're back at Terminal Five, glassily housing a source of environmental catastrophe, central to a society of shopping and surveillance. Naked Airport: a Cultural History of the World's Most Revolutionary Structure Alastair Gordon University of Chicago Press, 320pp, £9 Politics at the Airport Edited by Mark B Salter University of Minnesota Press, 240pp, £12.50 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 19:02:11 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:32:11 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Centering the border Message-ID: Thanks Nazneen for posting very interesting review of the two airport books. I paste below an excerpt from the statement for a project we had proposed to Danish Arts Council a few years back: "Grounded". <> > 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, and > a new paradigm in airport design.' > > Regards > > Nazo > > ******************************** > > http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2008/09/naked-airport-gordon-politics > > > Dreams of leaving > > Owen Hatherley > > Published 25 September 2008 > > > Naked Airport by Alastair Gordon > Politics at the Airport Edited by Mark B Salter > > > One of the saddest stories of the 20th century is the fate of air travel. In > 1900 it was a dream, feverishly speculated upon, subject to all manner of > Jules Verne imaginings; by 1999 it was a chore, a tedious, uncomfortable > ritual undertaken in order to get from A to B. A large portion of the blame > for this depressing non-event can be laid at the airport, that warren-like > combination of the shopping mall and the high-security prison, which is the > focus in Britain for a tortured air-angst every summer. > > In 2008, what Evening Standard headline writers might pithily call "Heathrow > chaos" was centred on the botched opening of the new Terminal Five. Designed > by Mike Davies at Rogers Stirk Harbour, it was only the second aesthetically > distinguished structure at Heathrow - which ranges grimly from the > ridiculously inappropriate red-brick mannerisms of the control tower and the > original terminals to the claustrophobic hell of Terminal Four. Finally - > around 50 years after Owen Williams's brutalist BOAC hangar - a decent > building. > > Inside, Terminal Five is majestic: a thrillingly Constructivist space, with > huge spans of glass and steel, open to the expanse of the surrounding > airfield. Yet within weeks of opening, 28,000 bags were lost, and 500 > flights cancelled. And to ensure that people milling around in limbo keep > themselves busy spending money, the terminal only has 700 public seats. > Today, amid the airline bankruptcies, an advert declares "Terminal Five is > working", as if we should be impressed. > > This tragicomic distinction between the airport as (sometimes) designed: as > metaphor for speed, transience and progress; and airport as used: as mall, > panopticon and fiercely guarded border, runs through Alastair Gordon's > brilliant Naked Airport. This is an impressively illustrated, comprehensive > "cultural history" of airports as buildings, from the earliest days of > makeshift sheds and hangars to the vast, glassy terminals designed by > architectural multinationals such as Foster + Partners. The book's narrative > begins two decades after the Wright brothers, and after the widespread > deployment of fighter-planes in the First World War. The airport became a > focus for speculation about design and modernity between the 1910s and the > 1930s, appropriately at a time when architects were full of futurist > fantasies about cities in which flight and movement determined form. > > Unsurprisingly, the earliest of these speculative schemes were those of the > Italian Futurists. The draughtsman Antonio Sant'Elia's still stunning cities > of ruthless modernity tended to feature airports in very inappropriate > places. Gordon notes that few architects had serious knowledge of the > mundane practicalities of landing and take-off. Le Corbusier, whose > insistence that "an airport should be naked" provides the book's title, > proposed that an airport be at the heart of a city, much like a rail > terminus. In his 1922 design project, "Contemporary City for Three Million > Inhabitants", the airport is at the centre of a Cartesian grid of > skyscrapers, with the planes flying dangerously close to the glass walls. > Meanwhile, actual flights and actual terminals at this point were a strange > combination of shabby and aristocratic. Lindbergh's transatlantic flight > ended with his landing on a mud track, while early flyers were almost always > members of the upper-crust, usually either Americans taking advantage of the > Monroe Doctrine to laze in the Caribbean, or British and French travellers > sunning themselves in the colonies. One decidedly racist 1920s poster for > PanAm depicts a grinning black porter taking the bags of stylised, glamorous > figures. > > The Jazz Age's flappers and flyers travelled through shoddy airfields, via > clumsily neoclassical terminals. Gordon argues that the first place truly to > find an appropriate form for the airport was Europe. Glass and concrete > created calm, rationalist spaces, without unnecessary reference to past > forms. By the 1930s, Amsterdam or Hamburg were leading the world, making New > York and Washington, for all their surface glitter, look staid. Gordon > devotes a whole chapter to the Roosevelt administration's interventionist > response. Massive public spending andnationalisation created a network of > publicly owned fac ilities such as Washington's "People's Airport". These, > although they still hedged their bets stylistically between reassuring > classicism and vertiginous modernity, were at least vastly more efficient > than their colonial-style precursors. > > Gordon notes that, as ever, war was a motor for technological progress in > airport design, particularly in the Axis countries. From 1936, > Berlin-Tempelhof was the world's largest airport, in a modernised classical > style that would be dubbed "Luftwaffe Modern", as nobody was in any doubt > about why Germany needed such a huge facility; and in early 1940s Italy, > Pier Luigi Nervi designed intricate, gravity-defying han gars that would > greatly influence a generation of postwar architects. > > The author also finds intriguing material on the camouflaging of American > airports, against the Japanese or German attack that never came - disguising > them as residential exurbs, which in turn gave way to actual exurbs growing > round the naked airports themselves after the war. The most fascinating > chapters are those that deal with the postwar years, where within a decade > the airport went from the most optimistic space in America to the site of > hijackings, security and surveillance. > > Naked Airport has much on Eero Saarinen's breathtaking TWA Terminal at JFK, > a swooping expressionistic fantasy - not only does a brief autobiographical > description of it open the book, but a chapter on the "Jet Age" features > incredible illustrations of this improbable building. Designed as a gigantic > concrete bird, it provided the most emblematic structure of a semi-fictional > world of allegedly willing air hostesses, fetishistic synthetic uniforms, > and wildly futuristic designs. Today, it serves as the unacknowledged > blueprint for the career of the currently fashionable Spanish > engineer-auteur Santiago Calatrava. Yet between 1969 and 1978, there were > 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, and > a new paradigm in airport design. Gordon claims that the manager of > Dallas/Fort Worth took as a model an advert depicting a passenger moving > seamlessly from car to port to plane, without any contact with the outside > world. > > After the shock of terrorism, and Jimmy Carter's deregulation of US > airlines, airports became stealthy, paranoid structures, centred on shopping > and surveillance. The book outlines how easily the 9/11 hijackers passed > through security, so another level of increasingly tedious and invasive > frisking and scanning arrived in the aftermath. Meanwhile, the seemingly > more optimistic models - the glass hangars of the 1990s and into the 21st > century, by Rogers, Foster, Calatrava et al - have their own sinister > underside. Gordon notes that Chek Lap Kok, Foster's huge Hong Kong sky-city, > was constructed by helots, whose standard of workmanship was unimpressive - > within a year, the building was a laughing stock. The constant expansion of > the airport is as spatially rapacious as it is ecologically disastrous, to > the point where it becomes difficult to pinpoint exactly where it begins and > ends, as anyone disturbed by the in-train films and muzak on the Heathrow > Express train will have noticed. > > The extremely bleak prognosis that ends Naked Airport is shared by Politics > at the Airport, a collection of academic papers edited by Mark B Salter. > >From the start, the editor (unfairly) classes Naked Airport as a work of > technocratic boosterism, and the book sniffily dismisses Marc Augé and J G > Ballard's ambiguous eulogies to airports as seamless, transient, clean and > serene "non-places" as the perspective of the privileged. Instead, Salter > and his contributors - mostly specialists in the study of surveillance and > security - concentrate on the spatial politics of the airport after 9/11. > Politics at the Airport stresses that, in Deleuze and Guattari's terms, the > airport both "deterritorialises" and "reterritorialises". > > It might appear to the frequent traveller as a smooth international zone > under a steel and glass canopy, but to the asylum-seeker or the terrorist > suspect, the airport is an effective high- security border with attached > prison. Colin J Bennett's essay notes that the US government's lists > prohibiting flight have included Bolivia's socialist president Evo Morales, > children, and anyone with the name David Nelson. Gallya Lahav writes on how > an intricate system of private-public partnerships means an all-pervasive > retail obsession coexists with the armed might of the state in the same > space. Others profile the recent use of a "biometrics" that makes the body > itself the locus of security, with passengers being identified by scans of > the iris - it seems airports are taking their inspiration from Philip K > Dick's stories of non-people condemned in non-places. > > Politics at the Airport's blizzard of acronyms and academic name-checks > belies its importance as a reminder that the airport is a deeply sinister > space, no matter how much architectural "transparency" might try to restore > some of its tarnished glamour. The final essay, Gillian Fuller's "Welcome to > Windows 2.1" takes a critical look at the Foster/Rogers rhetoric of > transparency, which "alternates between an illuminating display of what was > previously hidden to the dark suspicions of 'what have you got to hide?'''. > With that, we're back at Terminal Five, glassily housing a source of > environmental catastrophe, central to a society of shopping and > surveillance. > > Naked Airport: a Cultural History of the World's Most Revolutionary > Structure > > Alastair Gordon University of Chicago Press, 320pp, £9 > > Politics at the Airport > > Edited by Mark B Salter University of Minnesota Press, 240pp, £12.50 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 23 > ******************************************* > From nirali at shvaas.org Sun Oct 5 19:17:43 2008 From: nirali at shvaas.org (Nirali Shah) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:17:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Help Unsubscribe Message-ID: <29a6a81d0810050647n7d787e7cs8b1812fe85399c87@mail.gmail.com> Dear List Manager, I have tried multiple ways to unsubscribe from this list. All below attempts have not worked. So I am posting here. Kindly help. 1) Gone to link To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list Does not Work 2) Used unsubscribe option here: http://www.sarai.net/mailing-lists/reader-list-1 Does not Work 3) Emailed: reader-list-owner at mail.sarai.net. No Response Nirali Shah On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Thanks Nazneen for posting very interesting review of the two airport > books. I paste below an excerpt from the statement for a project we > had proposed to Danish Arts Council a few years back: "Grounded". > > < Well's time-travel. International date lines allow us to advance or > regress when we land in a new country. Long journeys mean that we > "lose" or "gain" a day, provided we fly far enough. This transition > across time is assisted by sleeping aids that try to "correct" our > circadian rhythms. Even as flying becomes more complex, we go to great > lengths to wrap ourselves in a cocoon of comfort and amnesia. > Elaborate "sedative" distraction systems (eye masks, ear plugs, > headphones, cabin socks, warm face towels, in-flight movies, gourmet > meals, wine, and duty free shopping) cushion flight time and distract > us from the reality of tensile pressure points and random events > (mysterious accidents like TWA 800 and Egyptair 990). For the > wealthier passenger, there is also the idea of hassle-free air travel > as an exclusive service: air taxis for businessmen and special lines > that bypass security lines for "pre-checked" individuals. Contrast > this with the massive global flow of working-class immigration, most > of which still travels by car, bus, train, ferry or ship. The vast > majority of the world has never even boarded an airplane.>> > > > 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, > and > > a new paradigm in airport design.' > > > > Regards > > > > Nazo > > > > ******************************** > > > > http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2008/09/naked-airport-gordon-politics > > > > > > Dreams of leaving > > > > Owen Hatherley > > > > Published 25 September 2008 > > > > > > Naked Airport by Alastair Gordon > > Politics at the Airport Edited by Mark B Salter > > > > > > One of the saddest stories of the 20th century is the fate of air travel. > In > > 1900 it was a dream, feverishly speculated upon, subject to all manner of > > Jules Verne imaginings; by 1999 it was a chore, a tedious, uncomfortable > > ritual undertaken in order to get from A to B. A large portion of the > blame > > for this depressing non-event can be laid at the airport, that > warren-like > > combination of the shopping mall and the high-security prison, which is > the > > focus in Britain for a tortured air-angst every summer. > > > > In 2008, what Evening Standard headline writers might pithily call > "Heathrow > > chaos" was centred on the botched opening of the new Terminal Five. > Designed > > by Mike Davies at Rogers Stirk Harbour, it was only the second > aesthetically > > distinguished structure at Heathrow - which ranges grimly from the > > ridiculously inappropriate red-brick mannerisms of the control tower and > the > > original terminals to the claustrophobic hell of Terminal Four. Finally - > > around 50 years after Owen Williams's brutalist BOAC hangar - a decent > > building. > > > > Inside, Terminal Five is majestic: a thrillingly Constructivist space, > with > > huge spans of glass and steel, open to the expanse of the surrounding > > airfield. Yet within weeks of opening, 28,000 bags were lost, and 500 > > flights cancelled. And to ensure that people milling around in limbo keep > > themselves busy spending money, the terminal only has 700 public seats. > > Today, amid the airline bankruptcies, an advert declares "Terminal Five > is > > working", as if we should be impressed. > > > > This tragicomic distinction between the airport as (sometimes) designed: > as > > metaphor for speed, transience and progress; and airport as used: as > mall, > > panopticon and fiercely guarded border, runs through Alastair Gordon's > > brilliant Naked Airport. This is an impressively illustrated, > comprehensive > > "cultural history" of airports as buildings, from the earliest days of > > makeshift sheds and hangars to the vast, glassy terminals designed by > > architectural multinationals such as Foster + Partners. The book's > narrative > > begins two decades after the Wright brothers, and after the widespread > > deployment of fighter-planes in the First World War. The airport became a > > focus for speculation about design and modernity between the 1910s and > the > > 1930s, appropriately at a time when architects were full of futurist > > fantasies about cities in which flight and movement determined form. > > > > Unsurprisingly, the earliest of these speculative schemes were those of > the > > Italian Futurists. The draughtsman Antonio Sant'Elia's still stunning > cities > > of ruthless modernity tended to feature airports in very inappropriate > > places. Gordon notes that few architects had serious knowledge of the > > mundane practicalities of landing and take-off. Le Corbusier, whose > > insistence that "an airport should be naked" provides the book's title, > > proposed that an airport be at the heart of a city, much like a rail > > terminus. In his 1922 design project, "Contemporary City for Three > Million > > Inhabitants", the airport is at the centre of a Cartesian grid of > > skyscrapers, with the planes flying dangerously close to the glass walls. > > Meanwhile, actual flights and actual terminals at this point were a > strange > > combination of shabby and aristocratic. Lindbergh's transatlantic flight > > ended with his landing on a mud track, while early flyers were almost > always > > members of the upper-crust, usually either Americans taking advantage of > the > > Monroe Doctrine to laze in the Caribbean, or British and French > travellers > > sunning themselves in the colonies. One decidedly racist 1920s poster for > > PanAm depicts a grinning black porter taking the bags of stylised, > glamorous > > figures. > > > > The Jazz Age's flappers and flyers travelled through shoddy airfields, > via > > clumsily neoclassical terminals. Gordon argues that the first place truly > to > > find an appropriate form for the airport was Europe. Glass and concrete > > created calm, rationalist spaces, without unnecessary reference to past > > forms. By the 1930s, Amsterdam or Hamburg were leading the world, making > New > > York and Washington, for all their surface glitter, look staid. Gordon > > devotes a whole chapter to the Roosevelt administration's interventionist > > response. Massive public spending andnationalisation created a network of > > publicly owned fac ilities such as Washington's "People's Airport". > These, > > although they still hedged their bets stylistically between reassuring > > classicism and vertiginous modernity, were at least vastly more efficient > > than their colonial-style precursors. > > > > Gordon notes that, as ever, war was a motor for technological progress in > > airport design, particularly in the Axis countries. From 1936, > > Berlin-Tempelhof was the world's largest airport, in a modernised > classical > > style that would be dubbed "Luftwaffe Modern", as nobody was in any doubt > > about why Germany needed such a huge facility; and in early 1940s Italy, > > Pier Luigi Nervi designed intricate, gravity-defying han gars that would > > greatly influence a generation of postwar architects. > > > > The author also finds intriguing material on the camouflaging of American > > airports, against the Japanese or German attack that never came - > disguising > > them as residential exurbs, which in turn gave way to actual exurbs > growing > > round the naked airports themselves after the war. The most fascinating > > chapters are those that deal with the postwar years, where within a > decade > > the airport went from the most optimistic space in America to the site of > > hijackings, security and surveillance. > > > > Naked Airport has much on Eero Saarinen's breathtaking TWA Terminal at > JFK, > > a swooping expressionistic fantasy - not only does a brief > autobiographical > > description of it open the book, but a chapter on the "Jet Age" features > > incredible illustrations of this improbable building. Designed as a > gigantic > > concrete bird, it provided the most emblematic structure of a > semi-fictional > > world of allegedly willing air hostesses, fetishistic synthetic uniforms, > > and wildly futuristic designs. Today, it serves as the unacknowledged > > blueprint for the career of the currently fashionable Spanish > > engineer-auteur Santiago Calatrava. Yet between 1969 and 1978, there were > > 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, > and > > a new paradigm in airport design. Gordon claims that the manager of > > Dallas/Fort Worth took as a model an advert depicting a passenger moving > > seamlessly from car to port to plane, without any contact with the > outside > > world. > > > > After the shock of terrorism, and Jimmy Carter's deregulation of US > > airlines, airports became stealthy, paranoid structures, centred on > shopping > > and surveillance. The book outlines how easily the 9/11 hijackers passed > > through security, so another level of increasingly tedious and invasive > > frisking and scanning arrived in the aftermath. Meanwhile, the seemingly > > more optimistic models - the glass hangars of the 1990s and into the 21st > > century, by Rogers, Foster, Calatrava et al - have their own sinister > > underside. Gordon notes that Chek Lap Kok, Foster's huge Hong Kong > sky-city, > > was constructed by helots, whose standard of workmanship was unimpressive > - > > within a year, the building was a laughing stock. The constant expansion > of > > the airport is as spatially rapacious as it is ecologically disastrous, > to > > the point where it becomes difficult to pinpoint exactly where it begins > and > > ends, as anyone disturbed by the in-train films and muzak on the Heathrow > > Express train will have noticed. > > > > The extremely bleak prognosis that ends Naked Airport is shared by > Politics > > at the Airport, a collection of academic papers edited by Mark B Salter. > > >From the start, the editor (unfairly) classes Naked Airport as a work of > > technocratic boosterism, and the book sniffily dismisses Marc Augé and J > G > > Ballard's ambiguous eulogies to airports as seamless, transient, clean > and > > serene "non-places" as the perspective of the privileged. Instead, Salter > > and his contributors - mostly specialists in the study of surveillance > and > > security - concentrate on the spatial politics of the airport after 9/11. > > Politics at the Airport stresses that, in Deleuze and Guattari's terms, > the > > airport both "deterritorialises" and "reterritorialises". > > > > It might appear to the frequent traveller as a smooth international zone > > under a steel and glass canopy, but to the asylum-seeker or the terrorist > > suspect, the airport is an effective high- security border with attached > > prison. Colin J Bennett's essay notes that the US government's lists > > prohibiting flight have included Bolivia's socialist president Evo > Morales, > > children, and anyone with the name David Nelson. Gallya Lahav writes on > how > > an intricate system of private-public partnerships means an all-pervasive > > retail obsession coexists with the armed might of the state in the same > > space. Others profile the recent use of a "biometrics" that makes the > body > > itself the locus of security, with passengers being identified by scans > of > > the iris - it seems airports are taking their inspiration from Philip K > > Dick's stories of non-people condemned in non-places. > > > > Politics at the Airport's blizzard of acronyms and academic name-checks > > belies its importance as a reminder that the airport is a deeply sinister > > space, no matter how much architectural "transparency" might try to > restore > > some of its tarnished glamour. The final essay, Gillian Fuller's "Welcome > to > > Windows 2.1" takes a critical look at the Foster/Rogers rhetoric of > > transparency, which "alternates between an illuminating display of what > was > > previously hidden to the dark suspicions of 'what have you got to > hide?'''. > > With that, we're back at Terminal Five, glassily housing a source of > > environmental catastrophe, central to a society of shopping and > > surveillance. > > > > Naked Airport: a Cultural History of the World's Most Revolutionary > > Structure > > > > Alastair Gordon University of Chicago Press, 320pp, £9 > > > > Politics at the Airport > > > > Edited by Mark B Salter University of Minnesota Press, 240pp, £12.50 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 23 > > ******************************************* > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 19:17:59 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 06:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Some thoughts for Naeem. Some for everyone.   FOR NAEEM Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article to serve as an introduction to your posting was the line:   """""" even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house.""""""""   Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this.   As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words:   """""" I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die."  """"""""""     FOR EVERYONE: There is some "Hindu Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Hinduism or directly linked to the Hindu Identity of the perpetrators.   Thankfully for India, there are more than many people including Hindus who highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it. These voices include ordinary people as well as opinion-makers and opinion-generators.   There is also some "Islamic Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Islam or directly linked to the Islamic Identity of the perpetrators.   For me as an Indian, what is missing are the voices including those of Muslims and of ordinary people and opinion-makers and opinion-generators who would highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it.   If the voices are 'truly secular', they would be voices common for the denouncement of and campaigning against both "Hindu Terrorism" and "Islamic Terrorism", voices of equal fervour and frequency for both denouncements.   The greatest harm that is done to India, the greatest harm that is done to Hindus and Muslims is by those voices who try to rationalise with some or the other excuse the indulging in 'terrorism' by the the Hindus and Muslims in the name of their respective religions.   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us To: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 1:07 PM ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Others Among Us By Suroor Mander 04 October, 2008 Countercurrents.org I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with us. What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class citizens. Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by fundamentalists from their community. We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have to. We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our hearts feel. Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 19:59:52 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:29:52 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I had just finished editing a friend's proposed abstract for a conference in Kolkata. Her research looks at the locality of Rajarhat, a formerly fishing/agriculture, now a fast growing IT Hub/new city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarhat The fundamental tension is new IT Park, attracting NRIs and Techno professionals, displacing the old working class inhabitants. Etc etc old story. At one point in the abstract, she highlights this tension by talking about Muslim tenants being refused apartments in this new city. The juxtaposition of course was with the old inhabitants, many of whom were Muslim, but I actually thought it didn't quite work because the displaced population was about 45%-55% Muslim-Hindu. I suggested to her that looking at what happens to upper class Muslims/NRIs/IT Professionals if they seek an apartment, etc may yield examples counter to her hypothesis (since I have a theory that in certain situations economic class trumps race or religion). Having just finished reading/editing that abstract, I found it interesting to stumble on "the line" in the article that seemed to counter, at least in one locality, my hypothesis. As for your use of "As an Indian", interesting exercise in othering to silence/exclude... On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article to > serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: > """""" even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""""" > > Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. > As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 21:44:27 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 21:44:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810050914n5c1a7456pd1861e726731f090@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra true, that there are numerous voices against hindu terrorism. but there are voices against terrorism within muslim world, audacity of which can not be measured through the reflections in media alone humbly is On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Some thoughts for Naeem. Some for everyone. > > FOR NAEEM > Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article to serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: > > """""" even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""""" > > Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. > > As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: > > """""" I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." """""""""" > > > FOR EVERYONE: > There is some "Hindu Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Hinduism or directly linked to the Hindu Identity of the perpetrators. > > Thankfully for India, there are more than many people including Hindus who highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it. These voices include ordinary people as well as opinion-makers and opinion-generators. > > There is also some "Islamic Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Islam or directly linked to the Islamic Identity of the perpetrators. > > For me as an Indian, what is missing are the voices including those of Muslims and of ordinary people and opinion-makers and opinion-generators who would highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it. > > If the voices are 'truly secular', they would be voices common for the denouncement of and campaigning against both "Hindu Terrorism" and "Islamic Terrorism", voices of equal fervour and frequency for both denouncements. > > The greatest harm that is done to India, the greatest harm that is done to Hindus and Muslims is by those voices who try to rationalise with some or the other excuse the indulging in 'terrorism' by the the Hindus and Muslims in the name of their respective religions. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > From: Naeem Mohaiemen > Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us > To: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > > ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > > > Others Among Us > By Suroor Mander > > 04 October, 2008 > Countercurrents.org > > I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper > after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just > yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart > sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in > Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. > > It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep > watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every > Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. > > It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became > more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national > capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it > teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, > internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop > hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the > terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have > been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with > us. > > What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar > didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or > exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class > citizens. > > Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it > is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their > namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all > believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika > or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't > viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus > the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we > stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? > > We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly > done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the > literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any > such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by > fundamentalists from their community. > > We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to > give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact > that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the > community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have > to. > > We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be > read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of > this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. > > I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? > This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I > wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our > hearts feel. > > Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Oct 5 21:57:51 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 21:57:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810050927q510def09t1cd8c363e694768d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, As a Hindu I think it is first and foremost important for me to speak out against those who use violence in the name of "Hindus". Only then, I think, do I have the right to speak against acts of political violence by others. Secondly, there is no dearth of denunciation of acts of political violence by Muslims. You are saying that there is a dearth, and stating it as a fact. But it is a perception. There have been any number of public denunciations of terrorism by Indian Muslims and Indian Muslim organisations including Islamic seminaries. The media doesn't give them much space as Inder says, but to the extent it does it seems you don't take note. See for instance: http://www.indianmuslims.info/documents/declaration_all_india_anti_terrorism_conference.html I completely agree with you when you write, "the greatest harm that is done to Hindus and Muslims is by those voices who try to rationalise with some or the other excuse the indulging in 'terrorism' by the the Hindus and Muslims in the name of their respective religions." Tell me, how many op-eds, posts etc have you seen, whether by the truly secular or the untruly secular, saying that the recent bomb blasts by the "Indian Mujahideen" are justified as they are a result of Gujarat 2002? After all the "Indian Mujahideen" state in their emails that they are avenging Gujarat 2002. So they are merely following Modi's interpretation of Newton's laws. But tell me, how many 'Muslims'/'Secularists'/'Intellectuals' have justified/not condemned/ explained away the IM attacks thus? best shivam On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Some thoughts for Naeem. Some for everyone. > > FOR NAEEM > Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article to serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: > > """""" even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""""" > > Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. > > As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: > > """""" I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." """""""""" > > > FOR EVERYONE: > There is some "Hindu Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Hinduism or directly linked to the Hindu Identity of the perpetrators. > > Thankfully for India, there are more than many people including Hindus who highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it. These voices include ordinary people as well as opinion-makers and opinion-generators. > > There is also some "Islamic Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Islam or directly linked to the Islamic Identity of the perpetrators. > > For me as an Indian, what is missing are the voices including those of Muslims and of ordinary people and opinion-makers and opinion-generators who would highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it. > > If the voices are 'truly secular', they would be voices common for the denouncement of and campaigning against both "Hindu Terrorism" and "Islamic Terrorism", voices of equal fervour and frequency for both denouncements. > > The greatest harm that is done to India, the greatest harm that is done to Hindus and Muslims is by those voices who try to rationalise with some or the other excuse the indulging in 'terrorism' by the the Hindus and Muslims in the name of their respective religions. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > From: Naeem Mohaiemen > Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us > To: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > > ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > > > Others Among Us > By Suroor Mander > > 04 October, 2008 > Countercurrents.org > > I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper > after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just > yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart > sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in > Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. > > It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep > watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every > Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. > > It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became > more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national > capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it > teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, > internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop > hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the > terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have > been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with > us. > > What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar > didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or > exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class > citizens. > > Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it > is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their > namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all > believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika > or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't > viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus > the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we > stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? > > We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly > done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the > literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any > such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by > fundamentalists from their community. > > We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to > give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact > that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the > community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have > to. > > We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be > read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of > this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. > > I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? > This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I > wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our > hearts feel. > > Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Oct 5 22:20:57 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:20:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Gentle persuasion" in Kashmir! Message-ID: <9c06aab30810050950q3fd807earcf0558e510e26ad5@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, In the article below, there is this rather revealing bit: ** Some intelligence agencies have also warned of a low-poll percentage. But a senior police official said: "One cannot wait for the perfect situation in Kashmir." According to him "gentle persuasion" in rural and border areas will help improve turnout. "After all, it is not a crime to ask people to vote. In several countries, voting is mandatory," he argues. ** Nationalists and the weak-hearted are recommended to see no evil and hear no evil for the next two months as the Indian state readies to show its ugliest face in Kashmir. best shivam o o o o Turbulent J&K: Bracing for Polls? As the poll panel meets in Delhi to decide when to hold elections in Jammu and Kashmir, divergent signals are emerging from both the regions. Whatever be the decision, the centre should tread cautiously, writes George Joseph. By George Joseph in Srinagar, 1 October 2008 Sakaal Times | http://www.sakaaltimes.com After three months of continuous agitations and political uncertainty in Kashmir and Jammu regions over the Amaranth land row, all eyes are now on the Nirvachan Bhawan in New Delhi. The meeting of the Election Commission on October 3 and 4 is likely to take that crucial decision - when to hold polls in the volatile State. Indications are that the EC may go for immediate elections beginning mid -November so as to facilitate smooth polls in the wintry areas of the Valley and Ladakh. "We are making all arrangements," says B R Sharma, chief electoral officer of the State. "Now, it is in the hands of the Chief Election Commissioner N Gopalaswami and his colleagues," says S S Bloeria, advisor to Governor N N Vohra. Not that advice from political parties and the Centre matters less. Prihviraj Chavan, minister of state in the Prime Minister's Office, who is also the AICC general-secretary in charge of J&K, recently visited both the regions. In his capacity as a key minister, he held detailed discussions with the Governor and other officials. Chavan is learnt to have given vital inputs to the recommendations the Union Government plans to give to the EC. He is learnt to have submitted a report favouring polls. According to him, the political costs - international and domestic - of postponing the polls are more than of holding polls now. Even a low turn out poll is better. He held the view that the separatists will get a shot in the arm if the polls are delayed. Chavan also met Congress activists and all indications suggest that the cadre has got the signal to get ready for the electoral battle. The BJP and many Jammu-based organisations are for an early poll. The BJP hopes to ride on the regional sentiment created by the Amarnath agitation. "If polls are delayed, it will be another step by the Congress government to help the separatists," says state president Ashok Khajuria. But those in favour of postponement of elections have not given up hope. PDP leader and former Union home minister Mufti Muhammed Sayeed has been telling the Centre that alienation of the people will escalate if polls are held. If the mood of the rank and file of the PDP is any indication, the party will boycott the polls if held soon. The state unit of the CPM and many middle-level leaders in the National Conference and the Congress also are wishing the polls are postponed. Said Abdul Nazir, a middle-level Congress leader: "Most Congress workers want to tell the high command that the polls should be deferred. But they could not muster the courage." Some intelligence agencies have also warned of a low-poll percentage. But a senior police official said: "One cannot wait for the perfect situation in Kashmir." According to him "gentle persuasion" in rural and border areas will help improve turnout. "After all, it is not a crime to ask people to vote. In several countries, voting is mandatory," he argues. That certain scenarios are a forgone conclusion if polls are announced. Several leaders of the separatist Jammu and Kashmir Co-ordination Committee (JKCC), including Ali Shah Geelani, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Yasin Mailk, may be detained. Already Geelani and some others are under house arrest. "Better the JKCC leaders have a sumptuous Eid feast. If polls are declared they would have to content with sarkari food in detention centres soon after," quipped political commentator Qayoom Zul?. In anticipation, the separatists have made counter plans. JKCC has called for a "Lal Chowk chalo" rally in Srinagar on October 6, where it expects to repeat the demonstration of mass support for independence as done during the "UN office Chalo" march and other three big rallies in last August. Fearing arrest of leaders and clamping of curfew, the JKCC activists are chalking out different strategies for the rally. It plans a "jail bharo" agitation in case the polls are announced. Committee leaders hinted that the protests will be peaceful so that they can convince the international community that the "Kashmir movement is a democratic one and not a terrorist organization. "Campaign will be taken out for boycott of polls," says Hurriyat leader Mustaq-ul-Islam, adding 'No election, no selection, we want plebiscite' has been "our slogan". "If polls are held soon, it will be remembered for its religious and regional polarisation," says political analyst Tahir Mohiuddin. It appears many political parties are basing their calculations on the divides created by the Amarnath agitation. National Conference strategists feel the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley, which has 46 out of the 87 seats in the State, will overwhelmingly vote for the party. It has hopes on the nine Muslim-majority seats in Jammu region and the two seats in Kargil. Farooq Abdullah, patron of the National Conference, has been openly favouring polls. BJP leaders have been claiming they will touch a record double-digit ?gure in the Hindu-majority Jammu vaulting from the pathetic lone seat at present. Several leaders of the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sanagarsh Samiti(SAYSS) too hope to reach Assembly this time. The Ladakh Union Territory Front, which won both the seats in Leh district uncontested last elections, is hoping to repeat its performance on the regional plank. "There are chances that moderate forces like the CPM and the Panthers' Party may be squeezed in this polarised politics," observed Mohiuddin. State officials have done detailed exercises regarding the security arrangements and logistics for the polls. Additional para-military forces will move into the State as and when polls are announced. Government has made alternate plans in case the polling officials are asked to boycott the duty by the JKCC. "Things are not that much bad. Hundreds turned up at the recent recruitment rallies for policemen," pointed out State police chief Kuldeep Khoda. As political parties and the state government anxiously wait for the EC decision, an official remarked aptly: "Nothing can be certainly said. There is always a suspense about Kashmir issues." SOUND BYTES FROM A VALLEY OF DISCONTENT MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED Patron, PDP Are you preparing for polls? Our focus is to identify with the people of Kashmir, who have been facing hardships due to the agitations by the communal forces in Jammu. The economic blockade had hurt Kashmiris. We want to take up their problems and stand by the people in this hour of crisis. Will you take part in the polls? Elections are no priority for us right now. If the matter comes to the fore, our party will discuss it. FAROOQ ABDULLAH Patron, NC How do you look at the election scene? The Election Commission of India will decide and conduct polls in Jammu and Kashmir whenever it feels suitable. These Hurriyat people, Geelani or Mirwaiz, are not the ones to decide on polls. Their programmes are damaging the State economy. Will you join the polls? Let the decision come. Our party leaders will meet and take appropriate decision as and when it is called for. But the Hurriyat agitations are disturbing normal life and disrupting educational system. They should make realistic demands. CHAMAN LAL GUPTA BJP leader When do you want the elections? The Bharatiya Janata Party wants the polls to be held at the earliest. Not a single day should be delayed in the restoration of a popular government with a mandate of the people in the State. What are the prospects for the party? BJP will win historic number of seats this time. The Amarnath agitation has exposed the double standards and 'psuedo secularist' policies followed by the Congress. People are flocking to the BJP in Jammu. YASIN MALIK Chairman, JKLF Do you think elections will have an impact? During the past 62 years India has conducted several elections here, which have turned into an exercise of rigging and mockery. Instead of holding farcical polls, India should agree to an arrangement to allow people to express their opinion. Kashmiris are overwhelmingly for freedom. Will you hold anti-poll agitation? Polls have no relevance in Kashmir situation. Again and again, this has been proved right. ALI SHAH GEELANI Hurriyat Chairman Will you oppose the polls? The people of Kashmir have nothing to do with the polls. What they want is self-determination as per the United Nations resolutions. They have reiterated this recently by taking out huge rallies of lakhs of people in Srinagar, Pampore and other places. But you had contested the polls and won? Those were different times. And we did it only for local administration as per UN resolutions. But then, India derailed those limited systems. Many leaders, who took part in polls, later became the leaders of the armed struggle. POLL FACTFILE Total Seats: 87 Kashmir Jammu Ladakh Tenure of assembly: 6 years Total Electorate 64.97 lakh Jammu: 30.84 lakh Kashmir: 32.60 lakh Ladakh: 1.52 lakh From jeebesh at sarai.net Sun Oct 5 23:08:43 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:08:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When the Bubble burst Message-ID: dear All, Here is a nice and precise analysis of the present turbulence in the financial market all over the world. It's incredible how a extremely complex web of trading and speculation got built around the monthly EMIs of Home Loans. Now the bubble has burst and has sunk many million small players. The big players will try to keep themselves afloat through various crafts of petition making, threats and blackmails. The coming time is going to be interesting... warmly jeebesh (extract from) When the bubble burst SHYAM P. The bursting of the speculative bubble in the U.S. housing market has destroyed billions of dollars in investor wealth across the world, crippled the banking system, expunged close to a million jobs…and India has not been spared either. With banks failing by the day, definitely, these are uncertain times for the financial services industry. While many people who have lost their jobs are faced with permanent shrinkage of their lifestyle, others in the industry are going through the trauma of not knowing if and when their turn would come. Who is to blame? A global financial cobweb started getting built around the American dream of purchasing a home and it rested on the assumption that “home prices will keep rising”. As demand for the CDOs started growing across the global investment community, the investment bankers (like Lehman) who were meant to sell these instruments also started investing a significant portion of their own capital in these. I guess after selling the story to the whole world, they themselves got sold on the seemingly foolproof concept. Gradually the markets for CDOs and Credit Default Swaps started expanding with traders and investors buying and selling these as if they were shares of a company, happily forgetting the underlying people behind these products who took the home loans in the first place and on whose capacity to repay the loans, the safety of these products depended. As Wall Street firms like Lehman were churning more and more home loans into CDOs and selling them or investing their own money, there was a pressure on the banks to issue more loans so that they can be sold to the Wall Street firms in return for a commission. Slowly banks started lowering the credit quality (qualification criteria) for availing a home loan and aggressively used agents to source new loans. This slippery slope went to such an extent that in 2005, almost anyone in the U.S could buy a home worth $100,000 (45 lakhs INR) or more without income proof, without other assets, without credit history, sometimes even without a proper job. These loans were called NINA — “no income no assets”. The U.S. housing market went into a classic speculative bubble. Home loans were easy to get, so more and more people were buying houses. The increased demand for houses caused the price to increase. The rising prices created even more demand, as people started to look at homes as investments — investments that never went down in value. Unheeded signals In late 2006, Mortgage lenders noticed something that they’d almost never seen before. People would choose a house, sign all the mortgage papers, and then default on their very first payment. Although no one could really hear it, that was probably the moment when one of the biggest speculative bubbles in American history popped. Another factor that lead to the burst of the housing bubble was the rise in interest rates from 2004-2006. Many people had taken variable rate home loans that started getting reset to higher rates, which in turn meant higher EMIs that borrowers had not planned for. The problem was that once property values starting going down, it set off a reverse chain reaction, the opposite of what had been happening in the bubble. As more people defaulted, more houses came on the market. With no buyers, prices went even further down. In early 2007, as prices began their plunge, alarm bells started going off across mortgage-backed securities desks all over Wall Street. The people on Wall Street, started getting calls from investors about not getting their interest payments that were due. Wall Street firms stopped buying home loans from the local banks. This had a devastating effect on particularly the small banks and finance companies, which had borrowed money from larger banks to issue more home loans thinking they could sell these loans to Wall Street firms like Lehman and make money. Everyone got into a mad scramble to seize and sell the homes in order to get back at least some of the money. But there were just not enough buyers. The guys who had insured these loans thinking they had near zero risk (e.g. AIG) could not fulfil the unexpectedly huge number of claims. The best part was that since these insurance policies (credit default swaps) could themselves be traded, multiple people had bought and sold them, and it became so tough to even trace who was supposed to compensate for the loss. The global financial cobweb built around mortgages is on the brink of collapse. Firms, large and small, some young some as old as a 100 years have crumbled as a result of suing each other over the dwindling asset values. Lehman’s India operations, that employed over a thousand staff, is up for sale and many of the employees have been asked to leave. The Indian stock market has crashed almost 50 per cent from its high (and so have markets around the world) as the Wall Street giants sold their investments in the country in an effort to salvage whatever is good in order to make up for the mortgage related loss. Hedge funds, pension funds, insurance companies all over the world have lost billions in investor’s money. Many Indian B-School graduates with PPOs (pre-placement offers) in the financial sector (India and abroad) have either received an annulment or indefinite postponement of joining dates. IT firms that built and maintained software for the U.S. mortgage industry or the related Investment Banks, have shut down their business units, laid-off people or transferred them to other verticals. Fragile system For all the hoopla over the sharp and sophisticated people on Wall Street, the current financial crisis has exposed the fragility of the system. Wall Street is blaming the entire episode on people who could not repay their home loans. But the reality seems to point towards the stupidity of people who lent all this money, financial institutions that built fancy derivative packages and in effect facilitated billions in trading and investments in these fragile low quality loans. The U.S. Govt is planning to grant 700 billion dollars to the Wall Street firms to compensate the financial speculators for the money that they have lost. Isn’t this like rewarding greed and stupidity? The head of a leading Investment Bank has stated, “This is necessary to sustain financial ingenuity. We don’t want to spend this money on ourselves. We just want this money to go into the market so that we can carry on trading complex securities, borrowing and lending money.” (Yeah…right, so that one can act as if nothing had happened without analysing too much into it). The real question is: Who is going to compensate the common investors across the world who have lost their wealth in the resultant market meltdown? (either directly or through pension funds). Date:05/10/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mag/2008/10/05/stories/2008100550010100.htm From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 03:29:29 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:59:29 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us References: Message-ID: <9F2A50A5905B4B4789FCDD0ECAB31703@shabori> I wonder if this problem of Muslims, famous or otherwise, not getting homes in Hindu majority areas is new. I think it has been there for a long long time. I don't think it is caused by any sense of distrust or hatred for a community or an individual. At least I did not suspect it to be the case when I was politely denied a house in Abul Fazal Enclave in south Delhi. For those who don't know about it, This area is part of the region, mostly known as mini Pakistan, where the infamous "encounter" took place. But the label "mini Pakistan" has been the case for much before the pre-encounter era. It was in 2003. I wanted to shift somewhere closer to my work place and the rents were not as high as in the neighboring areas. But after making me wait for a couple of days, the dealer told me politely that I would not like the place much. It wouldn't be very comfortable for me. And when I said I thought otherwise, the dealer said that the houses were not really available at that time. Long and short of the story, I had to settle in the neighboring Sukh Dev Vihar, a Hindu ghetto. I must add though that the house I rented belonged to a friend who is Muslim. According to a survey recently conducted by BBC in Maha Rashtra, of course after the Shabana's revelation which has raised concerns in the mainstream media about the problem prevalent for ages, it is not easy for a Muslim or a Hindu to rent or buy a home in the areas inhabited by a different faith. This discrimination is "socialist" in nature; you are not given any special consideration even if you are famous/rich. Even if you are nonpracticing. I do not agree with Suroor when he says that all the Muslims who can write have to implore the nonmuslims to accept them, not hate them. The famous bollywood Khans never do it on their blogs. Then you don't have to search for too long to find blogs abusing and daring the monkey worshippers (they use this for all the Hindus). Hindu writers too make their opinions loud and clear that they don't support the fundamentalists; they are not part of them. I don't know who does Suroor mean by "us" in this article. Also what does he mean by "Strangely none of this has horrified us." Why should anyone be horrified. We, people from all faiths, need to deal with it in a composed manner. Only lamenting how badly Muslims are being treated, or that they cannot celebrate id tension free, will not do anyone any good. Many Muslims did not celebrate id in Rajasthan with usual fervour this time, not because they were afraid of the society, Rajasthan has been the latest victim of the terror attacks, Rajasthan was not known for bomb blasts till the recent Jaipur blasts, they did not celebrate id this year because of a tragedy in a temple. They didn't have to do it, and they did not do it under any pressure. They did it with the best intentions of sharing in the grief of several bereaved Hindu families. What Suroor is doing in his mail is what the mainstream media has been doing. Sensationalize; create a fear psychosis. Reminding us that Muslims are alienated. I see nothing wrong in letting our religious identity lose in the public spaces. You don't get Svarg or Jannat by flaunting your Tilak or beard. The voices of how Muslim is alienated have multiplied manifold recently. Very soon CNNIBN will have a survey if Muslim is a separate nation. Mainstream Media which runs on the money they get from the corporate, has interestingly of late started publishing editorials supporting or seemingly supporting sovereignty to Kashmir. All that reminds me of Aijaz Ahmed's critique of Post Colonialism where he asks how is it that the rich and capitalist countries are coming closer, EU for example, whereas defection seems to be the order of the day for the poorer countries? His suggested answer is that the market is controlling the world and it is easier to control the smaller and weaker country, than it is to control a big one. So are the rich behind this communal divide in India? I can't say. But all these pogroms, the bomb blasts, the agitation of Muslim students in Asam against "discrimination" that supposedly lead to the tensions in Asam yesterday, the violence against Christians etc. need money and the poor have hardly anything to contribute but their labour. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" To: "Sarai Reader List" Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 3:37 AM Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us > ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > > > Others Among Us > By Suroor Mander > > 04 October, 2008 > Countercurrents.org > > I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper > after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just > yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart > sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in > Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. > > It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep > watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every > Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. > > It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became > more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national > capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it > teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, > internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop > hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the > terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have > been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with > us. > > What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar > didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or > exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class > citizens. > > Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it > is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their > namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all > believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika > or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't > viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus > the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we > stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? > > We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly > done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the > literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any > such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by > fundamentalists from their community. > > We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to > give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact > that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the > community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have > to. > > We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be > read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of > this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. > > I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? > This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I > wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our > hearts feel. > > Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 04:24:53 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:24:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian Left Parties In-Reply-To: <806024.42690.qm@web51809.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <806024.42690.qm@web51809.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470810051554j42ea0fa4ieb8c1e453aff4e7c@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 04:37:34 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:37:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBbR3JlZW5Zb3V0aF0gU0hJVkVS4oCmIERP?= =?utf-8?q?WN_THE_SPINE=2E?= In-Reply-To: <35f96d470810051606y6ac47947id6ad35d3a1c0ac4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9131a120810032011h6da07d68h493c7512f8696efb@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470810051605n5ff04ad5tf9291844350b091b@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470810051606y6ac47947id6ad35d3a1c0ac4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470810051607v46c696b2s618f1a63d3798125@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Mon Oct 6 05:49:43 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 01:19:43 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Centering the border In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <169ff67c0810051719n26a37d91x837c60eefcc655a6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Naeem, Thank you for sharing a part of your draft. I was wondering about the design of the plane itself. Much of the fatigue, I think, comes also from the fact, that air travel is so functional. Seats within a plane are designed to prohibit conversation. Cocooning is unabashedly promoted. Though air travel reduces time and all that, but I think, waiting is institutionalized within the logic a travel through air. The actual travel time might be reduced but the ritual of waiting makes one lose sense of time. The other aspect I think which amuses me, is how one voluntary loses and re-discovers one's luggage. Like one loses and rediscovers time and space. One does not feel or sense ones movement like one would by traveling through any other mode of transport. In a way one could argue, that air travel sedates ones memory by bracketing ones sense of time, place and space. Regards Nazo On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Thanks Nazneen for posting very interesting review of the two airport > books. I paste below an excerpt from the statement for a project we > had proposed to Danish Arts Council a few years back: "Grounded". > > < Well's time-travel. International date lines allow us to advance or > regress when we land in a new country. Long journeys mean that we > "lose" or "gain" a day, provided we fly far enough. This transition > across time is assisted by sleeping aids that try to "correct" our > circadian rhythms. Even as flying becomes more complex, we go to great > lengths to wrap ourselves in a cocoon of comfort and amnesia. > Elaborate "sedative" distraction systems (eye masks, ear plugs, > headphones, cabin socks, warm face towels, in-flight movies, gourmet > meals, wine, and duty free shopping) cushion flight time and distract > us from the reality of tensile pressure points and random events > (mysterious accidents like TWA 800 and Egyptair 990). For the > wealthier passenger, there is also the idea of hassle-free air travel > as an exclusive service: air taxis for businessmen and special lines > that bypass security lines for "pre-checked" individuals. Contrast > this with the massive global flow of working-class immigration, most > of which still travels by car, bus, train, ferry or ship. The vast > majority of the world has never even boarded an airplane.>> > > > 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, > and > > a new paradigm in airport design.' > > > > Regards > > > > Nazo > > > > ******************************** > > > > http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2008/09/naked-airport-gordon-politics > > > > > > Dreams of leaving > > > > Owen Hatherley > > > > Published 25 September 2008 > > > > > > Naked Airport by Alastair Gordon > > Politics at the Airport Edited by Mark B Salter > > > > > > One of the saddest stories of the 20th century is the fate of air travel. > In > > 1900 it was a dream, feverishly speculated upon, subject to all manner of > > Jules Verne imaginings; by 1999 it was a chore, a tedious, uncomfortable > > ritual undertaken in order to get from A to B. A large portion of the > blame > > for this depressing non-event can be laid at the airport, that > warren-like > > combination of the shopping mall and the high-security prison, which is > the > > focus in Britain for a tortured air-angst every summer. > > > > In 2008, what Evening Standard headline writers might pithily call > "Heathrow > > chaos" was centred on the botched opening of the new Terminal Five. > Designed > > by Mike Davies at Rogers Stirk Harbour, it was only the second > aesthetically > > distinguished structure at Heathrow - which ranges grimly from the > > ridiculously inappropriate red-brick mannerisms of the control tower and > the > > original terminals to the claustrophobic hell of Terminal Four. Finally - > > around 50 years after Owen Williams's brutalist BOAC hangar - a decent > > building. > > > > Inside, Terminal Five is majestic: a thrillingly Constructivist space, > with > > huge spans of glass and steel, open to the expanse of the surrounding > > airfield. Yet within weeks of opening, 28,000 bags were lost, and 500 > > flights cancelled. And to ensure that people milling around in limbo keep > > themselves busy spending money, the terminal only has 700 public seats. > > Today, amid the airline bankruptcies, an advert declares "Terminal Five > is > > working", as if we should be impressed. > > > > This tragicomic distinction between the airport as (sometimes) designed: > as > > metaphor for speed, transience and progress; and airport as used: as > mall, > > panopticon and fiercely guarded border, runs through Alastair Gordon's > > brilliant Naked Airport. This is an impressively illustrated, > comprehensive > > "cultural history" of airports as buildings, from the earliest days of > > makeshift sheds and hangars to the vast, glassy terminals designed by > > architectural multinationals such as Foster + Partners. The book's > narrative > > begins two decades after the Wright brothers, and after the widespread > > deployment of fighter-planes in the First World War. The airport became a > > focus for speculation about design and modernity between the 1910s and > the > > 1930s, appropriately at a time when architects were full of futurist > > fantasies about cities in which flight and movement determined form. > > > > Unsurprisingly, the earliest of these speculative schemes were those of > the > > Italian Futurists. The draughtsman Antonio Sant'Elia's still stunning > cities > > of ruthless modernity tended to feature airports in very inappropriate > > places. Gordon notes that few architects had serious knowledge of the > > mundane practicalities of landing and take-off. Le Corbusier, whose > > insistence that "an airport should be naked" provides the book's title, > > proposed that an airport be at the heart of a city, much like a rail > > terminus. In his 1922 design project, "Contemporary City for Three > Million > > Inhabitants", the airport is at the centre of a Cartesian grid of > > skyscrapers, with the planes flying dangerously close to the glass walls. > > Meanwhile, actual flights and actual terminals at this point were a > strange > > combination of shabby and aristocratic. Lindbergh's transatlantic flight > > ended with his landing on a mud track, while early flyers were almost > always > > members of the upper-crust, usually either Americans taking advantage of > the > > Monroe Doctrine to laze in the Caribbean, or British and French > travellers > > sunning themselves in the colonies. One decidedly racist 1920s poster for > > PanAm depicts a grinning black porter taking the bags of stylised, > glamorous > > figures. > > > > The Jazz Age's flappers and flyers travelled through shoddy airfields, > via > > clumsily neoclassical terminals. Gordon argues that the first place truly > to > > find an appropriate form for the airport was Europe. Glass and concrete > > created calm, rationalist spaces, without unnecessary reference to past > > forms. By the 1930s, Amsterdam or Hamburg were leading the world, making > New > > York and Washington, for all their surface glitter, look staid. Gordon > > devotes a whole chapter to the Roosevelt administration's interventionist > > response. Massive public spending andnationalisation created a network of > > publicly owned fac ilities such as Washington's "People's Airport". > These, > > although they still hedged their bets stylistically between reassuring > > classicism and vertiginous modernity, were at least vastly more efficient > > than their colonial-style precursors. > > > > Gordon notes that, as ever, war was a motor for technological progress in > > airport design, particularly in the Axis countries. From 1936, > > Berlin-Tempelhof was the world's largest airport, in a modernised > classical > > style that would be dubbed "Luftwaffe Modern", as nobody was in any doubt > > about why Germany needed such a huge facility; and in early 1940s Italy, > > Pier Luigi Nervi designed intricate, gravity-defying han gars that would > > greatly influence a generation of postwar architects. > > > > The author also finds intriguing material on the camouflaging of American > > airports, against the Japanese or German attack that never came - > disguising > > them as residential exurbs, which in turn gave way to actual exurbs > growing > > round the naked airports themselves after the war. The most fascinating > > chapters are those that deal with the postwar years, where within a > decade > > the airport went from the most optimistic space in America to the site of > > hijackings, security and surveillance. > > > > Naked Airport has much on Eero Saarinen's breathtaking TWA Terminal at > JFK, > > a swooping expressionistic fantasy - not only does a brief > autobiographical > > description of it open the book, but a chapter on the "Jet Age" features > > incredible illustrations of this improbable building. Designed as a > gigantic > > concrete bird, it provided the most emblematic structure of a > semi-fictional > > world of allegedly willing air hostesses, fetishistic synthetic uniforms, > > and wildly futuristic designs. Today, it serves as the unacknowledged > > blueprint for the career of the currently fashionable Spanish > > engineer-auteur Santiago Calatrava. Yet between 1969 and 1978, there were > > 400 plane hijackings, quickly leading to a massive upgrade in security, > and > > a new paradigm in airport design. Gordon claims that the manager of > > Dallas/Fort Worth took as a model an advert depicting a passenger moving > > seamlessly from car to port to plane, without any contact with the > outside > > world. > > > > After the shock of terrorism, and Jimmy Carter's deregulation of US > > airlines, airports became stealthy, paranoid structures, centred on > shopping > > and surveillance. The book outlines how easily the 9/11 hijackers passed > > through security, so another level of increasingly tedious and invasive > > frisking and scanning arrived in the aftermath. Meanwhile, the seemingly > > more optimistic models - the glass hangars of the 1990s and into the 21st > > century, by Rogers, Foster, Calatrava et al - have their own sinister > > underside. Gordon notes that Chek Lap Kok, Foster's huge Hong Kong > sky-city, > > was constructed by helots, whose standard of workmanship was unimpressive > - > > within a year, the building was a laughing stock. The constant expansion > of > > the airport is as spatially rapacious as it is ecologically disastrous, > to > > the point where it becomes difficult to pinpoint exactly where it begins > and > > ends, as anyone disturbed by the in-train films and muzak on the Heathrow > > Express train will have noticed. > > > > The extremely bleak prognosis that ends Naked Airport is shared by > Politics > > at the Airport, a collection of academic papers edited by Mark B Salter. > > >From the start, the editor (unfairly) classes Naked Airport as a work of > > technocratic boosterism, and the book sniffily dismisses Marc Augé and J > G > > Ballard's ambiguous eulogies to airports as seamless, transient, clean > and > > serene "non-places" as the perspective of the privileged. Instead, Salter > > and his contributors - mostly specialists in the study of surveillance > and > > security - concentrate on the spatial politics of the airport after 9/11. > > Politics at the Airport stresses that, in Deleuze and Guattari's terms, > the > > airport both "deterritorialises" and "reterritorialises". > > > > It might appear to the frequent traveller as a smooth international zone > > under a steel and glass canopy, but to the asylum-seeker or the terrorist > > suspect, the airport is an effective high- security border with attached > > prison. Colin J Bennett's essay notes that the US government's lists > > prohibiting flight have included Bolivia's socialist president Evo > Morales, > > children, and anyone with the name David Nelson. Gallya Lahav writes on > how > > an intricate system of private-public partnerships means an all-pervasive > > retail obsession coexists with the armed might of the state in the same > > space. Others profile the recent use of a "biometrics" that makes the > body > > itself the locus of security, with passengers being identified by scans > of > > the iris - it seems airports are taking their inspiration from Philip K > > Dick's stories of non-people condemned in non-places. > > > > Politics at the Airport's blizzard of acronyms and academic name-checks > > belies its importance as a reminder that the airport is a deeply sinister > > space, no matter how much architectural "transparency" might try to > restore > > some of its tarnished glamour. The final essay, Gillian Fuller's "Welcome > to > > Windows 2.1" takes a critical look at the Foster/Rogers rhetoric of > > transparency, which "alternates between an illuminating display of what > was > > previously hidden to the dark suspicions of 'what have you got to > hide?'''. > > With that, we're back at Terminal Five, glassily housing a source of > > environmental catastrophe, central to a society of shopping and > > surveillance. > > > > Naked Airport: a Cultural History of the World's Most Revolutionary > > Structure > > > > Alastair Gordon University of Chicago Press, 320pp, £9 > > > > Politics at the Airport > > > > Edited by Mark B Salter University of Minnesota Press, 240pp, £12.50 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 23 > > ******************************************* > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 10:24:45 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:54:45 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: International finance multiplier Message-ID: There's no "we told you finance fuckers" satisfaction to be had from the continuing grim news. The whirlpool will end up sucking everyone in. Hence "international finance multiplier" and linkages that now cannot be unravelled. And Krugman said last Friday "we are going over the edge". Grim, grim, grim. The international finance multiplier - Paul Krugman's blog Back in the day, economists used to talk about the foreign trade multiplier — international business cycle linkages via flows of goods and services. The basic idea was that since one country's imports are other countries' exports, a recession in one country would be transmitted to the rest of the world as slumping demand here led to an export plunge abroad. That's not what's happening now, or at least not yet. We're experiencing a global crisis, but a different kind of linkage is at work — call it the international finance multiplier. It operates through the balance sheets of highly leveraged financial institutions, which do a lot of cross-border investment. When these institutions lose heavily in one market — say, US mortgage-backed securities — they find themselves undercapitalized, and have to sell off assets across the board. This drives down prices, putting pressure on the balance sheets of other HLIs, and so on. And so a crisis originating in Florida condos and San Diego McMansions is causing havoc for Greek banks. Financial globalization, it turns out, means globalized financial crises. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 10:41:22 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:41:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810052211l2dda56e7ya56cb8c1e90fc2f6@mail.gmail.com> An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President ......... http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/06/stories/2008100650100100.htm New York: Declaring that India is not a "threat" to his country, Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has described the militants operating in Jammu and Kashmir as "terrorists," the first such admission by any top Pakistani leader. "India has never been a threat to Pakistan. I, for one, and our democratic government is not scared of Indian influence abroad," Mr. Zardari told *Wall Street Journal* in an interview. He spoke of the militant groups operating in Kashmir as "terrorists," the paper said, noting that former President Pervez Musharraf would more likely have called them "freedom fighters." Indicating a major shift in Pakistan's well-known position, Mr. Zardari had, as chief of the Pakistan People's Party, said in March that the ties between the two countries should not be held "hostage" to the Kashmir issue, which should be left for future generations to decide, raising hackles at home. The latest positive signals from Mr. Zardari come days after his maiden meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly meeting. Replying to a question, Mr. Zardari said he had no objection to the India-U.S. nuclear deal so long as Pakistan was treated "at par." "Why would we grudge the largest democracy in the world getting friendly with one of the oldest democracies?" he said. While seeking better ties with New Delhi, he noted that "there is no other economic survival for nations like us. We have to trade with our neighbours first." — PTI From navayana at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 10:57:37 2008 From: navayana at gmail.com (Navayana Publishing) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:57:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Khairlanji: Launch in New Delhi, 16 October Message-ID: *Navayana *invites you to the launch of *Khairlanji: A Strange and Bitter Crop* Anand Teltumbe with a panel discussion featuring Rajendra Yadav Sukhadeo Thorat Arundhati Roy Harsh Mander Nivedita Menon & Anand Teltumbde on 16 October 2008, 6.30 pm at the Indian Social Institute 10, Institutional Area, Lodi Road, New Delhi All are welcome. For further details call 9971433117 www.navayana.org anand.navayana at gmail.com Join Navayana Book Club and avail free books and special discounts! http://www.navayana.org/display.php?id=5 From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Oct 1 10:24:06 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (CologneOFF) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:54:06 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_The_premiere_of_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?CologneOFF_IV_-_Here_We_Are!?= Message-ID: <20081001065406.C5382BAF.AE1F9A70@192.168.0.3> CologneOFF - Cologne Online Film Festival http://coff.newmediafest.org is happy to announce the world premiere of 4th festival edition CologneOFF IV "Here We Are! http://coff.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=38 at Museum of Contemporary Art (MACZUL) Maracaibo/Venezuela in the framework of the annual "Salon de Arte Digital" http://www.salondeartedigital.com - 1-8 October 2008 The official online launch is postponed to December 2008. MACZUL Maracaibo will be presenting also the screenings of selections curated by CologneOFF festival director Agricola de Cologne --> CologneOFF III - "Toon! Toon! - art cartoons and animated narratives CologneOFF III - Feature : Nick Fox-Gieg VideoChannel - Videoart from Ukraine curated by Yarina Butkovska Cinematheque - Slowtime/Dreamtime - Further, MACZUL Maracaibo will present Agricola de Cologne also as a media artist in the solo feature "Some Minutes of a Time" - a retrospective - times based art 2004-2008 After Maracaibo, a series of presentations is planned in Caracas between 10 and 17 October 2008. More details on http://coff.newmediafest.org/blog/?p=41 http://www.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog/?p=178 ------------------------------------------ CologneOFF - Cologne Online Film Festival http://coff.newmediafest.org is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net ------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From press at brusselsbiennial.org Sat Oct 4 22:31:37 2008 From: press at brusselsbiennial.org (press at brusselsbiennial.org) Date: 04 Oct 08 19:01:37 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Brussels Biennial 1 - e-Invitation Opening Event 18.10.08 Message-ID: <79cbb4$5h1fmm@relay.skynet.be> _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 12:54:23 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:54:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jehadis Threaten Kashmiri Pandits in Pune Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810060024i2b8f737fy28a1f6cb9d93dd9c@mail.gmail.com> And now Jehadis threaten Kashmiri Pandits in PUNE / Maharshtra http://epaper.dnaindia.com/epapermain.aspx?parenteditioncode=40&queryed=40&querypage=3&boxid=31574662&parentid=76342&eddate=10/04/2008 Jehadi messages in Kondhwa surprises cops Aimed at Pandit families in Kondhwa Gitesh Shelke A few threats scribbled in Urdu on the walls of three housing societies in Kondhwa took the Pune city police and intelligence agencies by surprise on Thursday. The Kondhwa police and top intelligence officials undertook investigations even as a team of 50 policemen were pressed into bandobast duty. The threats referred to the Kashmir issue and jehadi movement in India and were directed against some Kashmiri Pandit families residing at Kondhwa. The Kondhwa police suspects that the miscreants may be affiliated to Student Islamic Movement of India (Simi) and the act was done to create panic among the local residents. Senior police officials said that the messages, aimed at creating panic, were scribbled in the verandah and staircase of a few buildings on NIBM Road. �The miscreants appear to be locals and had scribbled jehadi words on the walls. No one knows who came to these buildings and when this mischief was done,� an officer said. Assistant commissioner of police Ramesh Biwal told DNA that the police have started investigations but no case has been filed. �We have provided security to these families and are checking the registers of these buildings to check who made an entry or exit on Thursday,� he said. From iram at sarai.net Mon Oct 6 14:16:47 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:16:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: IFFI: Short Film Center Message-ID: <48E9D077.8080306@sarai.net> Fwd: Subject: Invitation for Short Film Center From: sfc at shortfilmcenter.org ========================== Dear Sir / Madam, Season’s Greetings! I am pleased to inform you that on the sidelines of the *INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL OF INDIA, GOA,* this year, we, have created a business platform for short and documentary films in Goa. This unique platform titled *SHORT** FILM CENTER* is being organized between 23 November – 1 December 2008. *The Short Film Center offers an opportunity to reach out to 5,000 film makers from one single platform and that too in a week’s time. It may be of interest to you as a Buyer at the SFC, you can do Presentations of your requirements to a large number of film makers, preview and judge their quality of work, discuss and negotiate with them in a cozy environment that Goa offers.* * * The SFC also has two competitive sections: 1. International Competition for shorts and documentaries under 30 minutes 2. Shorts and documentaries on environmental issues under 30 minutes Both sections together offer prize money of USD 26,000 and would be judged by two different juries of internationally acclaimed film makers. The film makers are submitting their films through our on line partners REELPORT, Germany on their website: www.reelport.com or directly on or before 15 October 2008. Other details on the SFC are on our web site: www.shortfilmcenter.org Agencies like Peaceful fish and Hupert Bals Foundation, Canal+ has confirmed its participation for SFC. We therefore invite you to participate in SFC. I will appreciate, if you could confirm your participation by 10^th October 2008. Milind Joshi, SFC Coordinator. _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Oct 6 16:33:48 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:33:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Nagar 'Encounter': Rashomon Redux Message-ID: <9D04D637-E965-4FA4-919C-3E16A38047CB@sarai.net> Dear All, We have spent considerable time discussing the Jamia Nagar 'encounter' on this list, and we have also paid some attention to the way it has been reported in the media. The truth of what exactly happened on the morning of the 13th of September is increasingly becoming foggy, notwithstanding efforts to dignify spoken and 'whispered' police handouts with the halo of reportage. In Akira Kurosawa's film 'Rashomon', different accounts of a murder lead to completely different interpretations of truth. It remains one of the best (to my mind) cinematic portrayals of the pressure of charged circumstances on the fragile substance of veracity. I am inclined to believe that thickening of narratives around the Jamia Nagar 'encounter' has enough within it to warrant the need for the making of a new 'Rashomon' set in the bylanes of Delhi. Samurais, renegades, dead bodies, missing bullets, absent bloodstains, betrayals, confessions, hysterical television anchors and slippery witnesses : and everything contradicting everything else, what a superb Rashomon Redux that would make ! If there are so many discrepancies in the accounts of the event that the Special Cell of the Delhi Police is seeding in the fertile soil of headlines and 'breaking news', how can we even begin to swallow whole the subsequent attempts at offering us all 'insights' into the 'minds' of 'bomb makers' and 'bomber-terrorists' that have just begun to surface. I am referring of course to this week's cover story on India Today. And I am sure there will be more to follow. And I am relatively sure that a lot of these 'insights' (especially as they unravel) will tell us more about the analysts than about the analysed. Please see below a non-partisan analysis of the inconsistencies in the media reportage of the 'bare facts' of the Jamia Nagar encounter. Interestingly, this analysis has been carried out by journalists themselves. These are journalists associated with the Delhi Union of Journalists. I saw this on the Hoot website (www.thehoot.org) regards Shuddha ============================ Some Hard Questions (Forwarded from The Hoot.org) Although all newspapers and TV channels used the same source, the police, they differed in the basic facts reported about the police encounter in Jamia Nagar. THE DELHI UNION OF JOURNALISTS presents a critique of media reporting of the Batla House Police Operation. Posted Saturday, Oct 04 19:00:37, 2008 http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/story.php? storyid=3360&mod=1&pg=1§ionId=1&valid=true Extracts from the DUJ report Foreword The Delhi Union of Journalists and its Ethics Council are concerned at the falling standards of reporting as evident in the manner in which the police operation at Batla House on September 19, 2008 was reported by various newspapers and TV channels in the Capital. We wish to underline that accuracy in reporting facts is the first responsibility of the media. Where facts are disputed, the discrepancies should be pointed out and the sources questioned. Presenting several versions of incidents and using multiple sources of information is an inalienable part of credible reporting. We also emphasise that uncovering the truth may not always be the job of the media. The media is not equipped to investigate and uncover the truth in severely complicated cases like the incident being examined in the report. But presenting different facets of events as they emerge is part of the professional responsibility of the media. In this report we have analysed the reporting of the Times of India, The Hindustan Times, The Hindu, The Indian Express (Delhi editions of September 20 and 21, 2008). Among the Hindi newspapers we have examined Dainik Jagaran, Amar Ujala, Dainik Hindustan, Jansatta, Punjab Kesari and Rashtriya Sahara; the Urdu newspaper we looked at is Rashtriya Sahara. We wish to make it clear that we hold no brief for either the police or the suspects, two of whom have been killed and several rounded up. We are not passing a judgment on whether it was a planned encounter or a fake encounter or a police operation gone wrong. We do not know the truth. We are only examining the professional conduct of our co-professionals with a view to pointing out the casual manner in which serious issues have been handled right from the day of the serial bomb blasts in Delhi. A research team of the DUJ decided to examine the way in which the print media reported the police operation on September 19, 2008, at L-18, Batla House, Jamia Nagar in Delhi in which two alleged terrorists and one inspector of the Special Cell of the Delhi Police were killed. We have attempted in this report to first state the facts as they were reported and then analyse the language employed and the views expressed while reporting and commenting on this highly sensitive and contentious incident. Analysis of Newspaper Reports dated September 20, 2008 The facts first. 1. Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma of the Special Cell of the Delhi Police killed. 2. Two young boys, Atif Amin and Mohammed Sajid, killed. 3. Mohammed Saif arrested. The rest of the facts regarding the police operation at L-18, Batla House, Jamia Nagar, Delhi on Sept. 19, 2008 are uncertain. Although the incident took place in the capital of India and all the newspapers and TV channels used the same source, the Police, even the basic facts are not in place. Every daily newspaper and television channel seems to have its own set of 'facts' and often these contradict each other. Accuracy seems to have been sacrificed in the rush to be first with the news and provide the more sensational coverage. Let us examine how the incident was reported in the Delhi editions of the dailies. The Time of the Shootout: The Hindustan Times and Dainik Jagran have given the time as 11 a.m. The Indian Express, quoting a resident, says the first shot was fired around 9.45 a.m. The Times of India report does not mention any time. Mail Today says it began at 11a.m. The Hindi Hindustan report would have us believe that it all began at 10.30 a.m. Amar Ujala says firing began around 10.45 a.m. and lasted till 11 a.m. The Duration of the Shootout: The Hindustan Times says the shootout lasted 15 minutes whereas its Hindi publication, Dainik Hindustan, says it lasted 90 minutes. According to the TOI, the entire encounter took 25 minutes. Mail Today says the operation lasted 30 minutes. The Veer Arjun says the shootout lasted between 30 and 45 minutes. Rashtriya Sahara, Urdu, claims that the shooting lasted nearly two hours. Amar Ujala says the encounter lasted 1 hour and 15 minutes. Punjab Kesari claims that the encounter lasted one hour. Rounds fired: According to the TOI, 25 rounds were fired by the police and 8 by the 'terrorists'. The Indian Express, the Hindu, Dainik Hindustan, Punjab Kesari and Rashtriya Sahara, Urdu say the police fired 22 rounds. They are all silent about the rounds fired by the suspects. Rashtriya Sahara, Hindi and Amar Ujala say the police fired 22 rounds and the 'terrorists' fired 8 rounds. Interestingly, the Navbharat Times claims that both the police and the suspects were armed with AK 47s but did not use them! 'Explosive' stuff: All the dailies reported the police claim that those shot at Batla House were terrorists responsible for several bomb blasts. The HT quoted Police Commissioner Y S Dadwal as saying that "explosives made by him (Atif – our clarification) and his team bore their signature – two detonators, wooden frame, ammonium nitrate and analog quartz clocks." In the light of this claim, the list of explosives claimed to have been recovered from the flat occupied by the suspects is interesting. Dainik Hindustan says one AK 47, two pistols, one computer and important papers were recovered. Veer Arjun reports one AK 47, .30 bore pistols, cartridges and 21 country pistols were found. Navbharat Times says one AK 47, two .30 imported pistols, 20 live cartridges, magazine, two laptops, mobile phones and other items were recovered. Rashtriya Sahara, Hindi says police recovered one AK 47 and two .32 bore pistols, one computer and books. Punjab Kesari says police found one AK 47, two pistols and one computer. Amar Ujala says the police seized one AK 47, .30 bore revolver, two laptops, half a dozen mobiles and six pen drives. None of the dailies report the recovery of any ammonium nitrate and analog quartz clocks. No question is asked about the recovery of these chemicals or equipment claimed to be part of the terrorist group's signature. How many Policemen were there? Indian Express reports that Sharma went there along with five officers. Mail Today reports a 15-member team led by Sharma Veer Arjun claims 50 personnel led by Sharma landed there. NBT says a total number of 24 police personnel went there. Amar Ujala reports that a 22-member police team cordoned off the area under the leadership of Sharma. The TOI, HT, Jansatta, Dainik Jagran and The Hindu refrain from mentioning the number of policemen involved in the operation. How many Bullets hit Sharma? The TOI, IE, HT, Mail Today, The Hindu, Veer Arjun, Rashtriya Sahara, Hindi all say three bullets hit Sharma. Navbharat Times says four bullets hit him. Jansatta claims that five bullets hit him in the abdomen, thigh, left arm, upper part of the shoulder and right hip (Anchor story). Rashtriya Sahara, Urdu reports four bullets hitting him, one each on shoulder, arm, back and right hip. Rashtriya Sahara, Hindi claims that all the three bullets were taken out during an operation in Holy Family hospital Amar Ujala also claims that bullets had been removed and quotes Dr. Rajesh Chawla to this effect. It says Dr Chawla was summoned from Apollo hospital. He reportedly told the paper that there was excessive bleeding because the bullets hit the lung and the lower part and after 'bullets had been removed', it was felt that Sharma may survive. Subsequently post-mortem reports quoted by some of the dailies said that Sharma had been hit by only two bullets and both bullets had exited the body. No bullets were removed from his body. About Mohan Chand Sharma Even in paying tributes to Inspector Sharma the papers have reported different facts. HT says that he had "shot dead 75 criminals and terrorists." The TOI says he was "credited with the killing of 35 terrorists and the arrest of 80 others." The IE says that "Sharma's 'kill tally' stood at 75 criminals including 35 terrorists". The Hindu says he was instrumental in "neutralising 35 terrorists and arresting as many as 80 militants." It goes on to say he had 'gunned down 40 gangsters' and arrested '120' criminals. Amar Ujala reports that Sharma killed 35 terrorists and 40 gangsters, nabbed 80 terrorists and 129 gangsters. It says he was involved in 75 encounters. Contact : DELHI UNION OF JOURNALISTS Office: FLAT NO.-29, New Central Market, Connaught Circus, New Delhi-1 E-mail:, pande.duj at gmail.com Tel: 23413459 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 16:40:43 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <722443.18957.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Naeem   I can only comment on what you actually post since I am not privy to the background of your choosing an extract. If you had given that background, maybe your extract would not have seemed provocative. Maybe.   You misrepresent my usage of "As an Indian". It was not meant to exclude or silence you. I neither have the desire nor power to do it. This List is open space and at the very least it seeks to be South Asian.   Why would you object to my sadness "as an Indian" when I register (as noteworthy) the desperation and hopelessness of an Indian expressing itself as ""Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die."?   Was I the one "othering" you? You had already "othered" yourself by choosing as an introduction for your posting the extract  """"...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""".    If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if there are regular postings from you highlighting significant social and political issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the minorities. This list is too India-centric isn't it, as you yourself (I think) have pointed out in the past.   While we are at your "otherness", if you are actually from Bangladesh may I ask you something. It has always intrigued me that if India is such a hellish place for Muslims,  why would Muslims from Bangladesh in fairly large numbers steal in as illegal migrants. What are your thoughts on that?   I ask a similar question from my fellow Indians who talk about India being a "Great Country" and either talk about it already being a Superpower or being on the thresh-hold of becoming a Superpower. I ask them if the truth is anywhere close to their contentions, why would Indians by the thousands leave India and seek employment or education opportunities in other countries.      Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us To: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 7:59 PM I had just finished editing a friend's proposed abstract for a conference in Kolkata. Her research looks at the locality of Rajarhat, a formerly fishing/agriculture, now a fast growing IT Hub/new city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarhat The fundamental tension is new IT Park, attracting NRIs and Techno professionals, displacing the old working class inhabitants. Etc etc old story. At one point in the abstract, she highlights this tension by talking about Muslim tenants being refused apartments in this new city. The juxtaposition of course was with the old inhabitants, many of whom were Muslim, but I actually thought it didn't quite work because the displaced population was about 45%-55% Muslim-Hindu. I suggested to her that looking at what happens to upper class Muslims/NRIs/IT Professionals if they seek an apartment, etc may yield examples counter to her hypothesis (since I have a theory that in certain situations economic class trumps race or religion). Having just finished reading/editing that abstract, I found it interesting to stumble on "the line" in the article that seemed to counter, at least in one locality, my hypothesis. As for your use of "As an Indian", interesting exercise in othering to silence/exclude... On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article to > serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: > """""" even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""""" > > Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. > As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vivek at sarai.net Mon Oct 6 16:46:15 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:46:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] piracy and authorship in poetry Message-ID: <48E9F37F.7040207@sarai.net> Hi all, wonder what all of you might think about this, an interesting scandale just broken in a (mostly American) little poetry world. Don't forget that this is not your father's poetry world, this a dense knotted network where everyone has a google alert on their name... First, read this blog entry: http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html#more Read the comments field, too, or as much of them as you can manage, then read the anthology, or as much of it as you can manage. THEN (spoiler alert) read: http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/anthology_spoiler.html and http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-polite-clarification.html and http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2008/10/one-advantage-of-e-books-is-that-you.html . Did I write this? Vivek From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 16:49:48 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Malegaon blast (first person account) Message-ID: <770499.71117.qm@web51408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Malegaon Bomb Blast: The Smell of Blood is Still in My Head By Mubasshir Mushtaq The deadly bomb blast which ripped apart bodies of the believers on September 29 has left a deep scar on the psyche of the town. Without losing any time, I was at Bhikku chowk, the epicentre of the blast, which resembled more like a battlefield than an ordinary chowk in a Muslim neighbourhood. The members of leaderless Muslim community were busy helping the injured in their own individual way. A few emotional Muslims protested against the police claim that it was a cylinder blast. It hurts me deeply that a stone-pelting incident can alter the destiny of my community. Clashes between Muslims and Police followed. Police first-lathi-charged and then opened fire. People fell like a pack of cards. >From Bhikku chowk I rushed towards Noor hospital like a madman searching for sanity. Police bullets seem to have an ingrained bias against Muslims. Bullets chase Muslims till death. As I entered the hospital to inquire about the injured, I could hear the gunshots being fired outside (in Mushawerat chowk). With each shot, I trembled with rage and fear. Each shot increased my heartbeats. The palpitation was so seismic that I feared that my heart would jump out and leave me dead. On one hand Dr. Saeed Faizee, Dr. Sohail and Dr. Faisal continuously worked to restore the faith of Muslim community, outside the naked dance of official bias was at play. Where was the humanity of the people? The scene at Faran hospital – where the majority of the injured (58) were brought – was chaotic. Curios onlookers and some family members of the injured were caught in the mêlée outside the Faran hospital. As I entered the hospital the smell of fresh blood became unbearable. It is still in my head. The injured were being treated by Dr. Saeed Farani and his dedicated team of doctors. The entire hospital was in collective mourning. The cry of a toddler will haunt me for the rest of my life. It could have been my nephew or anybody else's. A bared burnt back of a bearded old man almost brought me to the brink of cry. But then the call of my métier restrained me. I made sure that tears didn't spill out of my eyes. In the operation theatre, I saw an open surgery being performed on one of the injured. The ruptured veins of his left foot were a terrible sight to behold. I could stop there while beholding the sanguine scene or gently pass out. The sight of the three dead bodies neatly lined one after another froze my soul. I felt as if I was in the awesome presence of death. As I clicked their pictures, a thought crossed my mind: Is it fair for a journalist to take pictures of the victims mowed down by flying balls, nails and bullets? It was a call of the conscience. In the spilt of a second, I decided to go ahead. I thought I was Muslim as well as a journalist. The job of a journalist is not to write but to communicate. The Muslim in me thought that I must communicate to the world that my own community has been hit in its own backyard. Not once, but twice. When the guns fell silent, I returned to Bhikku chowk at 3am. Uninformed media persons were orchestrating the official line that the bomb blast site is below the building where Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) once had its office. But nobody bothered to say that the bomb blast site is rather in front of a Police chowky as well. These are matters of perception. Why was Bhikku chowk chosen for the blast site? Bhikku chowk represents a strong Muslim identity where Muslims from all diverse sects and walks of life gather for a cup of tea or socializing after traweeh prayers in Ramadan. The attack was on Muslim identity. Why can't the security agencies accept that there is in essence a turf-war going on between communalists of different faiths in the form of bomb blasts? It is unfortunate that in this war Police often seem to be on the side of the majority community. It is a bitter truth albeit uncomfortable. Next day, home minister RR Patil uttered the usual platitude of repeated bombings of recent past. "It was an attack on national integration." I am sorry, Mr. Patil. Bhikku chowk is not the place for bridging the gulf that has divided two communities. It is a traditional Muslim ghetto. The attack was on Malegaon's Muslim identity and not on national integration. There were eyebrows raised when I bluntly asked him 'How many people have died in the police firing.' He paused for a moment; Nikhil Gupta, Nasik SP, bent and whispered something. "Nobody has died in the police firing. Police had fired 58 rounds in the air so no one was injured," Patil claimed. This goes against the public perception and a doctor's claim in Malegaon. According to Dr. Saeed Farani at least 3 persons have been injured in the police firing. The actual figure is obviously higher but nobody is willing to say because the town is reeling under fear. Each Muslim mother in Malegaon is praying lest her son becomes a "suspect." Things will never be the same in this forsaken corner of Maharashtra but this much is certain: Indian Muslims will not allow India to become another Pakistan. -- Mubasshir Mushtaq Blog: www.mubasshir.blogspot.com Column: http://www.mjakbar.org/columnist/mubasshir/index.htm From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Oct 6 16:50:04 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:50:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <722443.18957.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <722443.18957.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17DD0BD0-A3CD-4A3E-BFB2-BAC9298EE4C4@sarai.net> Dear Kshmendra, Ahem, actually, there have been postings on this list on the situation of minorities in Bangladesh. I would draw your attention to Shambu Rahmat's recent posting on the removal and desecration of Buddha images in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, (and attendent abuses) and Naeem himself, (actually in response to a post that I wrote on Mass Graves in Kashmir) has also posted on gross human rights violations in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (home to large numbers of non-Muslim indigenous peoples) in Bangladesh. I think you will agree with me that it is about time we stopped making not very well informed judgements about people's biases on the basis of our assesments of list members identities as revealed by their handles and our speculations about their provenances. thanks and regards, Shuddha On 06-Oct-08, at 4:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Naeem > > I can only comment on what you actually post since I am not privy > to the background of your choosing an extract. If you had given > that background, maybe your extract would not have seemed > provocative. Maybe. > > You misrepresent my usage of "As an Indian". It was not meant to > exclude or silence you. I neither have the desire nor power to do > it. This List is open space and at the very least it seeks to be > South Asian. > > Why would you object to my sadness "as an Indian" when I register > (as noteworthy) the desperation and hopelessness of an Indian > expressing itself as ""Where will I go? This is the place where I > was born. This is the place I will die."? > > Was I the one "othering" you? You had already "othered" yourself by > choosing as an introduction for your posting the extract > """"...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""". > > If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if > there are regular postings from you highlighting significant social > and political issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the > minorities. This list is too India-centric isn't it, as you > yourself (I think) have pointed out in the past. > > While we are at your "otherness", if you are actually from > Bangladesh may I ask you something. It has always intrigued me that > if India is such a hellish place for Muslims, why would Muslims > from Bangladesh in fairly large numbers steal in as illegal > migrants. What are your thoughts on that? > > I ask a similar question from my fellow Indians who talk about > India being a "Great Country" and either talk about it already > being a Superpower or being on the thresh-hold of becoming a > Superpower. I ask them if the truth is anywhere close to their > contentions, why would Indians by the thousands leave India and > seek employment or education opportunities in other countries. > > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen > wrote: > > From: Naeem Mohaiemen > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us > To: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 7:59 PM > > I had just finished editing a friend's proposed abstract for a > conference in Kolkata. Her research looks at the locality of Rajarhat, > a formerly fishing/agriculture, now a fast growing IT Hub/new city. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarhat > > The fundamental tension is new IT Park, attracting NRIs and Techno > professionals, displacing the old working class inhabitants. Etc etc > old story. At one point in the abstract, she highlights this tension > by talking about Muslim tenants being refused apartments in this new > city. The juxtaposition of course was with the old inhabitants, many > of whom were Muslim, but I actually thought it didn't quite work > because the displaced population was about 45%-55% Muslim-Hindu. I > suggested to her that looking at what happens to upper class > Muslims/NRIs/IT Professionals if they seek an apartment, etc may yield > examples counter to her hypothesis (since I have a theory that in > certain situations economic class trumps race or religion). > > Having just finished reading/editing that abstract, I found it > interesting to stumble on "the line" in the article that seemed to > counter, at least in one locality, my hypothesis. > > As for your use of "As an Indian", interesting exercise in othering > to > silence/exclude... > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: >> Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the >> article > to >> serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: >> """""" even "famous Muslims" find > it difficult to find a house."""""""" >> >> Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. > > > >> As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 16:56:07 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:56:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Brooding on Eid by Irfan Hussain(in Dawn) Message-ID: <13df7c120810060426t5dca83f0jf0c6e814e92b037c@mail.gmail.com> ON Tuesday I got a call from this newspaper, informing me that as Eid would be celebrated on Thursday, there would be no issue of Dawn on Saturday and I did not therefore need to send a column this week. So I slept late the next morning in the belief that I had a day off. However, my cellphone soon informed me that the mullahs had changed their minds, and Eid was now on Wednesday, so a column was required after all. Another Eid, another round of confusion. Ever since I can remember, we have not been able to resolve this relatively simple problem. Year in and year out, the members of the Ruet-i-Hilal Committee (or 'moon-men', according to the long-defunct Sun) have one straightforward task to perform, and each year they goof up. You'd think that with just one useful thing to do in 365 days, they would occasionally get it right. And yet, even Saudi Arabia announces ahead of time when Eid will be celebrated, so it can't be rocket science. Across the Muslim world, Eid is being celebrated on three different days. This is fine, but at least these other Islamic countries have one Eid internally. In Pakistan, on the other hand, we have often marked the festival on different days in different places. So when people talk of the unity of the Ummah, I can only roll my eyes in disbelief. While scrolling through Dawn's Internet edition, I learned that our sports minister was very upset over the Australian decision to cancel its cricket tour of Pakistan because of security concerns. The minister complained that although bombs were going off in India too, the Australians were going ahead with their visit to our neighbour. Well, the truth is that there are bombs, and there are bombs: the devices that have taken such a tragic toll in Indian cities were locally made, and did not involve suicide bombers. Above all, they did not target foreigners. In Pakistan, given half a chance, our home-grown heroes would happily kill as many foreigners as they could. The suicide attack at the Islamabad Marriott appeared intended to slaughter as many westerners as possible. The other difference is that the terrorist attacks in India were universally condemned. In Pakistan, there is much more ambivalence in people's attitudes towards these killers, with many in the media coming up with the "Yes, but …" argument to somehow equate terrorism with western policies. We in Pakistan have lost touch with reality to the extent that we do not realise how out of step we are with the rest of the world. Even before Pakistan became a no-go land for foreigners, it was not a particularly attractive destination. When Ian Botham famously declared that Pakistan was a country he would like to send his mother-in-law to, there was an explosion of indignation in our media. But look at it from a touring cricketer's point of view: after a day of competitive sport, he would like to get to explore and shop, like any other tourist. In Pakistan, however, security considerations keep him a virtual prisoner in his hotel. In other countries, visiting sportsmen go off to pubs, clubs and parties; they shop for presents; and when they are at the seaside, they go to the beach. None of these normal activities are possible in Pakistan. So unsurprisingly, many tours are now routinely cancelled on security grounds, and the players probably heave a sigh of relief. One result of this sporting isolation is that our standards are falling sharply. And rather than playing tough matches against visiting teams, our players are embroiled in endless inquiries into their conduct. In fact, I doubt if there's another cricket team in the world with greater disciplinary issues than ours. In a way, this is a reflection on the general environment of decline and lawlessness that has come to characterise us. We constantly complain that Muslims are discriminated against by the rest of the world, but we refuse to see what a laughing stock we have reduced ourselves to by our own actions. Recently, a publisher's house was firebombed in London because he was about to print a novel called Jewel of Medina. This book has still not seen the light of day, so the attackers could not have possibly read it. And yet they were willing to kill or wound a person for daring to agree to print it. I have little doubt that when the book does appear, it will offend many Muslims. By rioting, raving and ranting against material deemed to be offensive, Muslims do not do themselves any favours. The entire Rushdie episode, for instance, was far more damaging to Muslims than it was to the author or his publishers. The manner of protest over the Danish cartoons did not harm either the offending newspaper or the cartoonist. Any day of the week, it is easy to watch a TV show or a stand-up comedy act in England that people belonging to, say, the Christian faith may find offensive but nobody gets worked up and threatens the artists involved. Occasionally, Ofcom, the watchdog for the media, gets a complaint from a Christian group, and it investigates to see if its guidelines have been breached. But the Vatican or the Church of England do not issue fatwas demanding that somebody should be murdered for a work of literature. More and more, Muslim societies are being seen as intolerant, violent and irrational. And more and more, Muslims around the world seem determined to prove their detractors right. Instead of introspection and self-analysis, we are forever condemning the rest of the world for our plight, our isolation and our image. This paranoia feeds our perpetual state of self-righteous indignation. Re-reading this column, I can see that it is not entirely appropriate for Eid. But that's what the mullahs get for depriving me of my day off. And Happy Eid, no matter when or where you celebrated it. http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 17:06:10 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:06:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <722443.18957.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <722443.18957.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshmendra, I assume that you are refering to the state of poverty that pulls muslims from bangladesh towards India & pushes indians towards other country for earning money. If not than I would say it is actually 'poverty which is responsible, religion has nothing to do with it. I would rather love to be an illegal migrant rather than die of hunger or continues, regular, yearly floods. and somethimes I think why only homo sapians are illegal migrants, what about the other animals who increases our 'bio diversity'. and why 'Rivers' are not invaders for our neighbors and their flow as 'act of terror' for us, that provoke them to migrate offcourse 'illegally' Best, Yunus On 10/6/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Naeem > > I can only comment on what you actually post since I am not privy to the > background of your choosing an extract. If you had given that background, > maybe your extract would not have seemed provocative. Maybe. > > You misrepresent my usage of "As an Indian". It was not meant to exclude or > silence you. I neither have the desire nor power to do it. This List is open > space and at the very least it seeks to be South Asian. > > Why would you object to my sadness "as an Indian" when I register (as > noteworthy) the desperation and hopelessness of an Indian expressing itself > as ""Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place > I will die."? > > Was I the one "othering" you? You had already "othered" yourself by > choosing as an introduction for your posting the extract """"...even > "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""". > > If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if there > are regular postings from you highlighting significant social and political > issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the minorities. This list is > too India-centric isn't it, as you yourself (I think) have pointed out in > the past. > > While we are at your "otherness", if you are actually from Bangladesh may I > ask you something. It has always intrigued me that if India is such a > hellish place for Muslims, why would Muslims from Bangladesh in fairly > large numbers steal in as illegal migrants. What are your thoughts on that? > > I ask a similar question from my fellow Indians who talk about India being > a "Great Country" and either talk about it already being a Superpower or > being on the thresh-hold of becoming a Superpower. I ask them if the truth > is anywhere close to their contentions, why would Indians by the thousands > leave India and seek employment or education opportunities in other > countries. > > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > From: Naeem Mohaiemen > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us > To: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 7:59 PM > > I had just finished editing a friend's proposed abstract for a > conference in Kolkata. Her research looks at the locality of Rajarhat, > a formerly fishing/agriculture, now a fast growing IT Hub/new city. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarhat > > The fundamental tension is new IT Park, attracting NRIs and Techno > professionals, displacing the old working class inhabitants. Etc etc > old story. At one point in the abstract, she highlights this tension > by talking about Muslim tenants being refused apartments in this new > city. The juxtaposition of course was with the old inhabitants, many > of whom were Muslim, but I actually thought it didn't quite work > because the displaced population was about 45%-55% Muslim-Hindu. I > suggested to her that looking at what happens to upper class > Muslims/NRIs/IT Professionals if they seek an apartment, etc may yield > examples counter to her hypothesis (since I have a theory that in > certain situations economic class trumps race or religion). > > Having just finished reading/editing that abstract, I found it > interesting to stumble on "the line" in the article that seemed to > counter, at least in one locality, my hypothesis. > > As for your use of "As an Indian", interesting exercise in othering > to > silence/exclude... > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article > to > > serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: > > """""" even "famous Muslims" find > it difficult to find a house."""""""" > > > > Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. > > > > > As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Change is the only constant in life ! From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 17:08:44 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:08:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Azamgarh: District in discomfort In-Reply-To: <290140.16696.qm@web56801.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <290140.16696.qm@web56801.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0810060438s26f1d34ax254c52f19802cc1e@mail.gmail.com> TRIBUNE: Azamgarh: District in discomfort Shahira Naim ---------------------------------------------------------- [Shahira Naim is a senior journalist serving as Special Correspondent of The Tribune in Uttar Pradesh. Be welcome to send your comments to her directly at: shahira at rediffmail.com ] IT was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us… — Charles Dickens in Tale of Two Cities These lines best describe the state of affairs in Uttar Pradesh's Azamgarh district. For Azamgarh, being projected as the epicentre of terrorism, things had just started looking up. In tune with the changing milieu of post-liberalisation India, the youth from the district were no longer jumping to grab a job in the Gulf. Instead of earning their livelihood doing petty jobs in these countries, they were in search of avenues in the lucrative service sector in the country. The latest trend was to do an English-speaking course, get computer literate and do short-duration job-oriented management or other professional courses being offered in the private sector in the metropolitan cities. The final destination was to land a job in an MNC or BPO. "Our young men were easily finding jobs paying a salary of around Rs 20,000 in the cities. This had almost reversed the trend to go to the Gulf in search of jobs," said Dr Iftekhar Ahmad, Principal of Shibli National College. Consequently, what was emerging was a visibly confident young generation. This generation next youth was ably competing in the job markets of Mumbai, Noida, Gurgaon and Delhi. The BPOs and MNCs were giving employment to these youth purely on merit and regardless of their regional or religious background. A possible reversal of this heartening trend is worrying those who are suspicious of a political conspiracy behind the recent turn of events branding the entire Azamgarh district as the nursery of terrorism — a term first used to describe Azamgarh by Gorakhpur firebrand Hindutva leader and BJP Member of Parliament Yogi Adityanath. Would the global MNC employers also succumb to this negative branding? Would youth from the district still be whole-heartedly accepted by employers, universities and professional colleges? With the police in hot pursuit, even parents are having second thoughts in sending their children to study outside the district. As Maulana Juwaad, a wizened old man from Sanjarpur, says, "The whole government machinery seems to be working towards Raj Thackeray's game plan of sending people from Azamgarh back to their villages". Azamgarh emerging as India's terror capital started on September 19 with the Delhi police staging the Batla House encounter. During the encounter, it killed two alleged terrorists — Atif and Sajid. Both of them belonged to Sanjarpur village, around 30 km from the district headquarters. Atif Amin had been staying in New Delhi for the last three years. After getting a B Sc (IT) degree from Manipal University, he had secured admission in the post-graduation course in Human Rights Development in Jamia Millia Islamia. Similarly, 17-year old Sajid had stepped out of Sanjarpur barely two months ago to do an English-speaking course in Delhi. His identity card from Shri Param Sant Jamunadas Inter College in Azamgarh shows his date of birth as September 2, 1991. He had passed his Class Tenth examination in 2008 and was enrolled for Class XI. The Delhi police also arrested Saif from the flat in Batla House. He also belongs to the same village. According to his father Shadab Ahmad, Vice-President of the Azamgarh unit of the Samajwadi Party, he wanted to do a good computer course from Delhi as he thought it would open doors for a good job. Incidentally, the Samajwadi Party was quick to disown Ahmad. No senior party functionary has cared to visit him. "No I am not angry, just hurt," says Ahmad commenting on his party's response. Two more boys picked up by the Delhi police in connection with the Delhi blasts belong to Azamgarh. Both Mohammad Shakil and Zia-ur-Rahman are students of Jamia Millia Islamia in New Delhi. On September 23, a heavily armed team of Delhi's Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) descended on Sanjarpur in the wee hours and raided the house of four young boys — Sajid, Arif, Salman and Khalid — who, they claim, were the absconding associates of Atif and Sajid. This Squad believes them to be associates or sleeping modules. Of these, two were studying in Lucknow. Arif was taking medical coaching in Lucknow and preparing for the CPMT examination. Like most boys of their age, Atif, Saif and Arif were also passionate about cricket. In fact, Saif and Arif had even played up to the district level. "Isn't it normal for boys from the same village to live together? It took care of homesickness that a first-timer feels in a big city like Delhi. Anyone going to Delhi for taking an examination or job interview invariably stayed with them and is now on the police radar", explained Tariq Shafiq, a social activist from Sanjarpur. Even before the news of the encounter, arrests and raids could sink in Mumbai police made another round of disclosures. On September 24, the Mumbai police arrested five young men all belonging to Azamgarh. Claiming to have delivered a body blow to the Indian Mujahidden, Mumbai's Joint Commissioner of Police (Crime Branch) Rakesh Maria asserted that the five persons were part of the Indian Mujahidden's think-tank and assisted or participated in all incidents where blasts happened or unexploded bombs were found in the country since 2005. The net result of the police operations has been that hundreds of young boys and girls from Azamgarh studying in various colleges in Delhi, Aligarh, Lucknow and elsewhere have switched off their mobile phones. Their parents have no news of them. Some of them had booked their tickets to celebrate Eid with their families at home. Now no one knows if they would come at all. The uncertainty hanging in the air is mind numbing. Since the Batla House encounter, newspapers and channels are competing with one another to run stories toeing the "Azamgarh nursery of terrorism" line, a description that makes people from the district cringe. Too hard hit to challenge these allegations, an average Azamgarhi or Azmi as they call themselves, is extremely angry with the media for believing every word the police is saying. "Nowadays, it's common for the media to be skeptical of police encounters and custodial deaths. But in the case of terrorism in general and Azamgarh in particular, the media is more than willing to swallow hook line and sinker whatever fabrication is being churned out by the police", said Umair Siddiq Nadwi, Editor of Marif, an academic publication brought out by the prestigious Darul Musannefin Shibli Academy in Azamgarh. The legacy of Allama Shibli Nomani holds no significance in the changed environment. This writer, poet, historian, teacher and nationalist had set up the Shibli Academy, a leading centre of Islamic learning. Similarly, many can still recall a poem learnt in school about Rana Pratap's horse Chetak. Few know that its writer Shyam Narain Pandey also hailed from Azamgarh. In these dark times, the media is in no mood to remember the contribution of Rahul Sanshkrityayan, Ayodhya Prasad Hari Oudh, Kaifi Azmi, Shamsur Rahman Farooqui or Shabana Azmi. It is only interested in playing up the fact that Dawood Ibrahim's relatives live in Azamgarh. That Abu Salem belongs to Sarai Mir. That Abu Bashar, the so-called mastermind of the Ahmedabad blasts, belongs to Binapara, a village not far from Sarai Mir. What probably means little to the media is that the district has produced many celebrities. Incidentally Uttar Pradesh Principal Secretary (Home) Kunwar Fateh Bahadur and the Additional Director-General of Police (Law and Order) Brijlal, the two top law enforcement officials, are also from Azamgarh. Even the high profile Samajwadi party leader Amar Singh originally belongs to the district. What has never hit the headlines is the fact that the district has the highest sex ratio of 1026 females in Uttar Pradesh. And this is not due to men going out in search of livelihoods as even the under six sex ratio is an impressive 949! Despite having one of the highest literacy rates in the state (overall 57 per cent, male 71 per cent and female 42 per cent), Azamgarh having a population of about 40 lakh does not have a single university, engineering college or medical college. Students have no option but to go elsewhere to pursue a higher degree and professional course. Despite perceptions to the contrary, the madarsas have made an important contribution to the relatively strong literacy standard of the district. Most of them now impart modern education along with religious guidance. For example, in Uttar Pradesh villages where it is difficult to come across a girl who has passed Class XII, it was surprising to learn that Sanjarpur, painted as the den of terrorists by the media, has no less than 50 women post-graduates! Something that the world perhaps needs to know is that the district being projected as the centre of religious orthodoxy was founded in 1665 by Azam, son of Vikramajit, a descendant of Gautam Rajputs of Mehnagar in pargana Nizamabad. According to the official website, Vikramajit like some of his predecessors embraced Islam, married a Muslim woman who bore him two sons, Azam and Azmat. While Azam gave his name to the town of Azamgarh, his brother Azmat constructed a fort and settled the bazaar of Azmatgarh in pargana Sagri. In the run-up to the Lok Sabha election next year, the Intelligence Bureau-police-media combine is causing a polarisation not only in Azamgarh but across the nation that suits the Hindutva brigade. In the name of internal security and combating terrorism, an alarming minority bashing and stereotyping is taking place. However, things are slowly changing for the better and that is providing a flicker of hope. Jamia Millia Islamia Vice-Chancellor Mushirul Hasan's decision to provide legal aid to two university students picked up by the Delhi police was, perhaps, the first step. Dr Hasan also took the initiative to hold a counseling session for the traumatised students from the districts living in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar. Samajwadi Party President Mulayam Singh Yadav urging the media not to brand the entire district as terrorist has worked like balm for the wounded souls of the people of the district. "Some may have strayed but why malign every single person from the district?", said Yadav. And now the National Human Rights Commission's notice to Delhi police raising questions regarding the Batla House encounter has provided some solace to the people. They hope that in the coming days Azamgarh would substantially reclaim its lost reputation. Originally published in THE TRIBUNE , on Sunday, 5 October 2008. --~-- From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 17:21:01 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:51:01 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <722443.18957.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <722443.18957.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: K, Here's how othering works in your emails. You put "as an Indian" right after the sentence where you question why I picked the excerpt I did. SUBTEXT: As an Indian this is what I think is the relevant excerpt, which is far more important than what you, a Bangladeshi, selected. You then write in a follow-up email: "If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if there are regular postings from you highlighting significant social and political issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the minorities." SUBTEXT: If you must post on this list, please post about Bangladesh, which is your country, not India, which is my country. Oh and before talking about our minorities, please fix your minority situation. Shuddha responded by pointing out that many of the Bangladesh related posts on Sarai do come from me, and a portion of that are about Bangladeshi minorities. I can only assume you skipped my posts on BD minority issues. Including my chapter on Religious Minorities (2006) and Ethnic Minorities (2007) for the Ain Salish Kendra Annual Human Rights Report, URLs for which were posted on Sarai. http://shobakorg.blogspot.com/2007/04/sorry-choles.html http://shobak.wordpress.com/2007/05/16/zero/ http://shobakorg.blogspot.com/2006/11/das-tripura.html http://shobakorg.blogspot.com/2007/02/tattered-flag.html http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/03/27/adivasi-07/ Or I could respond to your comment: "if you are actually from Bangladesh may I ask you something. It has always intrigued me that if India is such a hellish place for Muslims, why would Muslims from Bangladesh in fairly large numbers steal in as illegal migrants. What are your thoughts on that?" By giving link to my piece I posted on Sarai a while back: http://www.thedailystar.net/forum/2007/august/bangla.htm But this is a tedious, shopworn and circular exercise. Does this mean I have to trot out my CV regarding minorities in Bangladesh anytime I want to venture an opinion on minority issues inside India? From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 17:26:56 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 17:56:56 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Global Turmoil Hurts Grameenphone IPO Message-ID: No one is insulated. - N Grameenphone cuts fund-raising target HONG KONG, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Bangladesh's top cellphone carrier, Grameenphone, has cut the size of its planned share sale by more than half, to $125 million, amid the sharp downturn in global markets, a person familiar with the matter said. Initially the company, which is 62 percent owned by Norway's Telenor (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=TEL.OL), had hoped to raise $300 million -- half through a private placement and half through a subsequent domestic initial public offering. Now the company is looking to raise $50 million in the pre-IPO placement, although that part of the share sale can be increased if demand warrants. The IPO, set to launch at the end of December, has been cut in half to $75 million, the person said. Citigroup, which is handling the deal, declined to comment. A Grameenphone official could not immediately be reached for comment. Late last month, Grameenphone said it had extended the period for its private placement, citing challenging global capital market conditions. The scaling back of the deal was initially reported on Monday by FinanceAsia.com. (Reporting by Tony Munroe; Editing by Ken Wills) http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSHKG2760120081006 From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 19:06:31 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:06:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian Left Parties In-Reply-To: <806024.42690.qm@web51809.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <806024.42690.qm@web51809.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470810060636g56c8d60dva245b8740fc7d8fb@mail.gmail.com> --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: S. P. Udayakumar People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy October 2, 2008 42/27 Esankai Mani Veethy Parakkai Road Junction Nagercoil 629 002 Tamil Nadu To The National Executive Members Communist Party of India Ajoy Bhavan 15, Kotla Marg New Delhi 110 002 The Central Committee Members Communist Party of India (Marxist) A.K. Gopalan Bhawan 27-29, Bhai Vir Singh Marg New Delhi 110 001 The Central Committee Members All India Forward Bloc 28, Gurudwara Rakab Ganj Road New Delhi 110 001 The Central Committee Members Revolutionary Socialist Party 17, Firoz Shah Road New Delhi 110 001 The Central Committee Members Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Liberation U-90, Shakarpur Delhi 110 092 Dear Comrades: We, the members of the People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy, would like to congratulate the Leftist parties and leaders in India on your principled opposition to American imperialism that seeks to dominate our national life. We would also like to thank you for problematizing the India-US nuclear deal and popularizing the issue across the country among all sections of our society. The Leftist parties and leaders are the only hope of India to create awareness on people-friendly development paradigm; alternative energy generation; elimination of war and weapons of mass destruction; and transparency, accountability and popular participation in our national affairs. It is our humble submission that only the Leftist parties and leaders can shift the course of our national economy, politics and history in India and pave a new way for our collective salvation and freedom. After all, human society is based on "production of products" and "production of life." Humans act on Nature with the help of instruments to get products. Such a production of products must be based on needs; but now it is all done with greed damaging the Nature irreparably. Should humanity continue on the Earth, Nature should be protected! For the "production of life," Nature should be pristine so that future generations could thrive on our planet. However, the contemporary world operates with a wrong understanding of "development" that has its focus on indiscriminate industrialization, liberalization, privatization, globalization, monetization [and Americanization] with complete disregard for Nature, future, the interests of the labor, the safety and well-being of unborn generations, and other such externalities. India's ruling class says that if India has to achieve and sustain the desired growth level of 9-10 percent, the country has to have energy security, or as some nationalist leaders put it, energy independence. In India, electricity has always been considered to be a development input but now it has come to be regarded as a tradable commodity. Of the 593,732 villages in India (1991 census) 474,982 have been electrified with the remarkable 80 percent electrification. But if we look at the electrification of rural households, we see a different picture. There are some 138.3 million rural households (2001 census) in India but only 60.2 million of them have access to electricity and the electrification percentage is only 44 percent. So it is not that electricity is not available in their villages for these rural households but they simply cannot afford it. It is poverty that prevents them from accessing electricity. Although India has more or less sufficient quantity of electricity today, a considerable portion of our electricity is said to be wasted because of technical and commercial factors. Some 40% of electricity is lost in transmission because of energy dissipation in conductors and equipment used for Transmission and Distribution (T&D). Pilferage, defective meters, error in meter reading, error in estimating unmetered supply are other reasons for this huge wastage of electricity. So the challenges India faces today include reducing and eliminating T&D loss, improving the quality of supply and delivery systems, providing electricity for all at affordable price, and improving the economic lot of all the people across the country. Ignoring all these socioeconomic-political intricacies and complexities, India's ruling class seeks a scientific-technical solution for the energy issue and keeps chanting the nuclear mantra. They completely overlook the facts that there have been no new nuclear power stations built in the United States for the past 35 years and in Russia for almost 22 years, and that many European countries are phasing out their nuclear power program. There is hardly any debate about the enormous amount of dangerous nuclear waste we will accumulate from the nuclear power plants, the need to safeguard this "hazmat treasure" for 48,000 years, huge amounts of heavy metals discharged by light and heavy water reactors, radiation blues, shoving around fissile material, nuclear weapons proliferation, and Armageddon on the Earth. In fact, American, Russian and French capitalists try to dump their nuclear technology on India for their own survival and profit. Global capitalism turns any calamity to its advantage, and it puts forward nuclear power as the answer for climate change. If we look closely, mining and processing of uranium, building nuclear power stations with so much cement and steel, the long construction process, the decommissioning of the plants, and handling the radioactive waste - all cause considerable climate-changing pollution. Just as nuclear power is not an answer for climate change, it is not a panacea for our energy needs. As the People's Democracy and many of the Leftist leaders have pointed out, the contribution of nuclear power to the national grid has been so small and will continue to be so even after the India-US nuclear deal comes into effect. Nuclear power is also more expensive than any other mode of electricity generation. Global capitalism promotes nuclear power as the single solution for all the world's energy woes and its economic development. In India, so much money has already been wasted on nuclear power projects that are expensive, inefficient and troublesome. Since the current cash crunch is mainly due to nuclear power being very expensive and capital intensive, Indian nuclear establishment has expressed interest in inviting private investments and amending nuclear laws to facilitate privatization. What all this means is that while private companies make money with no responsibilities whatsoever, Indian taxpayers and the "ordinary citizens" will bear the cost of dealing with all the liabilities such as nuclear waste, possible accidents, public health issues and other dangerous consequences. The international and Indian capitalists will thrive at the cost of India's poor. National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganized Sector reveals that 320 million Indian workers live on less than 20 rupees a day. The National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) has recorded 1,66,304 farmers' suicides in a decade since 1997. There were 17,060 farmers' suicides in 2006 alone across India. All these mean that there has been one farmer's suicide every 30 minutes since 2002 (The Hindu, January 31, 2008). When our people lack basic food security, water security, sanitation security, job security, and human security, energy security is bandied about to promote the interests of the rich and powerful. Nobody except the Leftists dares to challenge any nuclear activity in the country. In fact, the present pro-military-industrial-academic-complex-thinking considers uranium mining, nuclear power plants, nuclear weaponization, nuclear deals with Americans, Russians and the French, and strategic partnerships with them as integral parts of being a patriotic Indian. Nuclearism has been part and parcel of the Northern capitalist development paradigm and the UPA government is underscoring this aspect to gain an upper hand in the national political game. An unequivocal problematization of this mainstream understanding of "development" has become the need of the hour. A highly populated country like India does have an increasing need for energy. But that energy has to be economical, sustainable and environment-friendly for the same reason of having over- and dense- population. The country needs to spend less on energy because there are other pressing needs such as health, education, housing, transportation and so forth. India cannot afford the "use and discord" strategy as in nuclear power projects for obvious reasons of limited land availability, reliance on the sea and sea food, future generation's interests and so forth. Its energy projects have to be environmentally-friendly because even a small incident can harm, hurt or kill a huge number of people. Nuclear power is beset with threats and dangers that can encompass the most improbable meteorite fall to the commonplace terrorist attack. For instance, The Hindu newspaper (September 6, 2006) reported that a meteorite fell at Kanvarpura village near Rawatbhata, where Rajasthan Atomic Power Plant is situated, on August 29, 2006. The [Geological Survey of India Deputy Director-General (western region) R. S. Goyal] said the meteorite could have caused devastation on an 'unimaginable scale' if it had fallen on the Rawatbhata Atomic Power Plant. Presiding over a crucial day-long meeting of the Chief Ministers on Internal Security, the Indian Prime Minister said terrorist outfits planned possible terrorist attacks on vital installations including nuclear establishments (The Hindu, September 6, 2006). In fact, two armed men were reportedly seen moving in the inner fencing area around the Kakrapar nuclear power plant in Gujarat (The Hindu, August 23, 2006). The plant was declared safe later without much elaboration. Most importantly, nuclearism is a global political ideology that cannot stomach any transparency, accountability or popular participation. It snubs dissent, denounces opponents and creates a political climate of fear and retribution. With the India-US nuclear deal, and the deals with Russia and France and the private participation in nuclear energy generation, the situation is going to get out of hand. The combination of profiteering companies, secretive state apparatus and repressive nuclear department will be ruthless and this nexus of capitalism, statism, nuclearism and communalism does not augur well for the country. These forces gaining an upper hand in our national polity will mean a death knell for the country's democracy, openness, futures and sustainable development. When the beginning of the 21st century provides India a historic opportunity to be a world-leader by building on our traditional strengths such as sustainable development and appropriate technology, our elites are forcing us to be American stooges with war-based values and wasteful lifestyle. The way out of this capitalistic and imperialistic quandary is to be progressive and being progressive does not necessarily mean going back to the days of pastoral simplicity. We need to strive for Green alternatives for our modern needs. The Leftists with Green values would be a boon for the country at this hour of crisis. We would like to present you with a concrete example. We are sure you have heard about the Koodankulam nuclear power plant that is being constructed in the Koodankulam village on the Gulf of Mannar in Tirunelveli district of Tamil Nadu. The Government of India is constructing two 1000 MW light water VVER nuclear power plants with Russian technology and loans. They have not released any Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) report, or the safety analysis report or the site evaluation study for the first two plants they are constructing. Nor have they conducted any public hearing to hear what the people of southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala have to say about the construction of these two nuclear power plants. We in southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala are very concerned about this undemocratic and anti-people multimillion dollar project that is thrust down our throats in the name of "development" and "energy security." Neither the Government of India nor the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) has shared any information about the Koodankulam plants or anything about the overall nuclear energy plans with any kind of transparency, democratic spirit or civic responsibility. They spread rumors and gossips about their plans and intentions and when these "unconfirmed reports" circulate among the public for sometime and gain some negative acceptance, they confirm the hearsays. The Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) has decided to increase the number of reactors at Koodankulam to eight (The Hindu, September 25, 2006). The National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC) also has proposed to establish nuclear power plants in or near Koodankulam with the generating capacity of 2000 MW power (The Hindu, September 6, 2006). So, as a recent newspaper report confirms (The Hindu, September 11, 2008) Koodankulam will be the largest mega nuclear complex with almost 10,000 MW generation capacity. Some of the RTI enquiries to the district collectors of a few southern Tamil Nadu and southern Kerala districts reveal how woefully inadequate they are about the nuclear safety arrangements and emergency preparedness. The India-Russia agreement on Koodankulam stipulated first that Russia would take the nuclear waste but now it has been decided that the waste will remain in India. There is hardly any discussion or consciousness among the political or bureaucratic circles about the nuclear waste issues, decommissioning questions, radiation hazards, future impact on our seas, fish and so forth. Nuclear waste management is going to be a major headache for our people. That is why D. D. Kosambi branded nuclear power as a "menace that even the unborn generations have to deal with." He further said, "only opportunists and third rate scientists spend their time and energies on nuclear power." Our people in the southern districts of Tamil Nadu and Kerala are taking a clear and bold stand that these nuclear power plants are not in the best interests of us and these projects should be stopped for ever. The Koodankulam mega nuclear complex will have disastrous consequences for all of us, the Tamils, the Malayalees, and even the Sinhalese and the Maldivians in the neighboring countries. Friends in Kerala have had such a fine record of fighting for the Silent Valley, against the soft-drink companies' stealing their water resources etc. They took such a courageous stand in not having any nuclear power plants in Kerala because of the over and dense-population in the state. But the Government of India has pushed the plant just a little outside their state boundary and set up the plant right across their front door. When 10 nuclear power plants release the coolant effluents into the sea on daily basis for the next four to five decades, one can think of the impact and repercussions that will have on all our air, our land, our water, our sea, our fish, our cattle, our children, our fathers and mothers, our health, and our future. The vested interests are trying to set our common home on fire in the name of energy security and national security. How about our human security? Our food security? Our air security? The security of our children who speak and sing in Tamil, Malayalam, Sinhalese and Divehi? Their songs and dances and their dreamy futures? This corner may be the "End of India" for the rest of India! But for us, this has been the beginning of India, the beginning of life, the beginning of everything! This place, this little corner of hills and high seas, rivers and forests, and ponds and paddy fields, is full of beginnings for us. This is where our life began, our history began, our culture began, our speech, our memories, our meanings, our dreams and desires – all began. But what will come off this beautiful place? Almost all our political parties, politicians, bureaucrats, religious leaders, and many NGOs have turned a blind eye to the nuclear issue. When people ask some uncomfortable questions about the nuclear project, we are often branded as unpatriotic, anti-national, and even CIA agents. It is quite ironic that the Indian elites call the people who oppose the nuclear program CIA agents when they themselves are selling the country to the Americans. Only the Leftists can and may tell us that we, the working class of India and the neighboring countries, are all human beings, that we all have a common home, the south of South Asia, that the sea is part and parcel of our home, and that fish is the most important food for us all. In short, the people of the south of South Asia share the same destiny of nuclear agony and only the Leftists can see this at the larger international picture and offer us a way out. Some Leftists tend to think that it is only the United States we should oppose and not nuclear energy per se or nuclear cooperation with Russia or France. Russia, like America, is also a capitalistic country and is interested in selling their nuclear technology to India in order to make some quick bucks. It is high time the Left all over India took an unambiguous stand against expensive, inefficient, dangerous waste-producing, weapons-proliferating, Nature-harming, future-hurting, children-killing, colonizing and enslaving nuclear energy without riders and exceptions and ifs and buts! Nuclearism is no more an energy issue or a scientific matter but a life-threatening political issue. The Left parties and leaders can and must make a difference in the nuclear issue just as you have done in the ongoing global financial crisis. Hoping that you would take this appeal seriously and lead us to better futures, we send you our best personal regards and all peaceful wishes. Cordially, S. P. Udayakumar, George Gomez, C. Boaz Coordinators People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy Ph: 04652-240657; 9865683735 From parthaekka at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 19:29:19 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:29:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian Left Parties In-Reply-To: <35f96d470810060636g56c8d60dva245b8740fc7d8fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <806024.42690.qm@web51809.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <35f96d470810060636g56c8d60dva245b8740fc7d8fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990810060659hfd531aepee12c18153b8fa45@mail.gmail.com> Hi, You may want to look at the following document: www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/*BENEFITS-of-NUCLEAR*.pdf A sub-section from the document: "Conservation and renewables: There are those who tell us we only need to conserve energy and rely upon renewable energies. Solar and wind are the major renewables. I agree, of course, that conservation is highly commendable, even essential. But in the light of the world's growing population, widespread economic development and enhanced life expectancy on the one hand (notably China and India which account for about 35% of the world's population) and finite fossil fuel resources on the other, conservation can only delay the crisis that will arise from the penury of oil and gas. Energy efficiency and alternate sources of energy can and must be developed. Efficient light bulbs produce the same amount of light with 3 to 8 times less energy. Heat pumps can provide the same amount of heat with 2 to 5 times less energy. Solar heat and geothermal energy can and should be developed to a much greater extent than they are today. Some environmentalists are enchanted by the simplicity of solar cells and the pristine elegance of wind turbines, and they refuse to accept the fact that they are quantitatively incapable of supplying the energy required by an industrial civilization I do not mean to say that these renewable energies should be excluded; they are useful and have important niche roles to play – in remote locations and under special circumstances. But they can make only a marginal contribution to the energy needs of a growing industrial civilization. Let me give an example. To replace just one nuclear reactor, such as the new EPR reactor which France is now building in Normandy, with the most modern wind turbines (twice as high as Notre-Dame, the Cathedral of Paris), they would have to be lined up all the way from Genoa in Italy to Barcelona in Spain (about 700 kilometers/400miles). And, even so, they generate electricity only when the wind blows (their average yield is about 25% of their rated capacity). There is much talk about biofuels, ethanol from sugar cane, for example. The entire arable surface of the Earth could not produce enough biofuel to replace present oil consumption." Rgds, Partha .................................. On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Anivar Aravind wrote: > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: S. P. Udayakumar > > > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > October 2, 2008 > 42/27 Esankai Mani Veethy > Parakkai Road Junction > Nagercoil 629 002 > Tamil Nadu > > > > > > To > > The National Executive Members > Communist Party of India > Ajoy Bhavan > 15, Kotla Marg > New Delhi 110 002 > > The Central Committee Members > Communist Party of India (Marxist) A.K. Gopalan Bhawan 27-29, Bhai Vir > Singh Marg New Delhi 110 001 > > > > The Central Committee Members > All India Forward Bloc > 28, Gurudwara Rakab Ganj Road > New Delhi 110 001 > > > The Central Committee Members > Revolutionary Socialist Party > 17, Firoz Shah Road > New Delhi 110 001 > > The Central Committee Members > Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Liberation > U-90, Shakarpur > Delhi 110 092 > > Dear Comrades: > > > We, the members of the People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy, would > like to congratulate the Leftist parties and leaders in India on your > principled opposition to American imperialism that seeks to dominate > our national life. We would also like to thank you for problematizing > the India-US nuclear deal and popularizing the issue across the > country among all sections of our society. The Leftist parties and > leaders are the only hope of India to create awareness on > people-friendly development paradigm; alternative energy generation; > elimination of war and weapons of mass destruction; and transparency, > accountability and popular participation in our national affairs. > > It is our humble submission that only the Leftist parties and leaders > can shift the course of our national economy, politics and history in > India and pave a new way for our collective salvation and freedom. > After all, human society is based on "production of products" and > "production of life." Humans act on Nature with the help of > instruments to get products. Such a production of products must be > based on needs; but now it is all done with greed damaging the Nature > irreparably. Should humanity continue on the Earth, Nature should be > protected! For the "production of life," Nature should be pristine so > that future generations could thrive on our planet. > > However, the contemporary world operates with a wrong understanding of > "development" that has its focus on indiscriminate industrialization, > liberalization, privatization, globalization, monetization [and > Americanization] with complete disregard for Nature, future, the > interests of the labor, the safety and well-being of unborn > generations, and other such externalities. > > India's ruling class says that if India has to achieve and sustain the > desired growth level of 9-10 percent, the country has to have energy > security, or as some nationalist leaders put it, energy independence. > In India, electricity has always been considered to be a development > input but now it has come to be regarded as a tradable commodity. Of > the 593,732 villages in India (1991 census) 474,982 have been > electrified with the remarkable 80 percent electrification. But if we > look at the electrification of rural households, we see a different > picture. There are some 138.3 million rural households (2001 census) > in India but only 60.2 million of them have access to electricity and > the electrification percentage is only 44 percent. So it is not that > electricity is not available in their villages for these rural > households but they simply cannot afford it. It is poverty that > prevents them from accessing electricity. > > Although India has more or less sufficient quantity of electricity > today, a considerable portion of our electricity is said to be wasted > because of technical and commercial factors. Some 40% of electricity > is lost in transmission because of energy dissipation in conductors > and equipment used for Transmission and Distribution (T&D). Pilferage, > defective meters, error in meter reading, error in estimating > unmetered supply are other reasons for this huge wastage of > electricity. So the challenges India faces today include reducing and > eliminating T&D loss, improving the quality of supply and delivery > systems, providing electricity for all at affordable price, and > improving the economic lot of all the people across the country. > > Ignoring all these socioeconomic-political intricacies and > complexities, India's ruling class seeks a scientific-technical > solution for the energy issue and keeps chanting the nuclear mantra. > They completely overlook the facts that there have been no new nuclear > power stations built in the United States for the past 35 years and in > Russia for almost 22 years, and that many European countries are > phasing out their nuclear power program. There is hardly any debate > about the enormous amount of dangerous nuclear waste we will > accumulate from the nuclear power plants, the need to safeguard this > "hazmat treasure" for 48,000 years, huge amounts of heavy metals > discharged by light and heavy water reactors, radiation blues, shoving > around fissile material, nuclear weapons proliferation, and Armageddon > on the Earth. > > In fact, American, Russian and French capitalists try to dump their > nuclear technology on India for their own survival and profit. Global > capitalism turns any calamity to its advantage, and it puts forward > nuclear power as the answer for climate change. If we look closely, > mining and processing of uranium, building nuclear power stations with > so much cement and steel, the long construction process, the > decommissioning of the plants, and handling the radioactive waste - > all cause considerable climate-changing pollution. > > Just as nuclear power is not an answer for climate change, it is not a > panacea for our energy needs. As the People's Democracy and many of > the Leftist leaders have pointed out, the contribution of nuclear > power to the national grid has been so small and will continue to be > so even after the India-US nuclear deal comes into effect. Nuclear > power is also more expensive than any other mode of electricity > generation. > > Global capitalism promotes nuclear power as the single solution for > all the world's energy woes and its economic development. In India, so > much money has already been wasted on nuclear power projects that are > expensive, inefficient and troublesome. Since the current cash crunch > is mainly due to nuclear power being very expensive and capital > intensive, Indian nuclear establishment has expressed interest in > inviting private investments and amending nuclear laws to facilitate > privatization. What all this means is that while private companies > make money with no responsibilities whatsoever, Indian taxpayers and > the "ordinary citizens" will bear the cost of dealing with all the > liabilities such as nuclear waste, possible accidents, public health > issues and other dangerous consequences. > > The international and Indian capitalists will thrive at the cost of > India's poor. National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganized > Sector reveals that 320 million Indian workers live on less than 20 > rupees a day. The National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) has recorded > 1,66,304 farmers' suicides in a decade since 1997. There were 17,060 > farmers' suicides in 2006 alone across India. All these mean that > there has been one farmer's suicide every 30 minutes since 2002 (The > Hindu, January 31, 2008). When our people lack basic food security, > water security, sanitation security, job security, and human security, > energy security is bandied about to promote the interests of the rich > and powerful. > > Nobody except the Leftists dares to challenge any nuclear activity in > the country. In fact, the present > pro-military-industrial-academic-complex-thinking considers uranium > mining, nuclear power plants, nuclear weaponization, nuclear deals > with Americans, Russians and the French, and strategic partnerships > with them as integral parts of being a patriotic Indian. Nuclearism > has been part and parcel of the Northern capitalist development > paradigm and the UPA government is underscoring this aspect to gain an > upper hand in the national political game. An unequivocal > problematization of this mainstream understanding of "development" has > become the need of the hour. > > A highly populated country like India does have an increasing need for > energy. But that energy has to be economical, sustainable and > environment-friendly for the same reason of having over- and dense- > population. The country needs to spend less on energy because there > are other pressing needs such as health, education, housing, > transportation and so forth. India cannot afford the "use and > discord" strategy as in nuclear power projects for obvious reasons of > limited land availability, reliance on the sea and sea food, future > generation's interests and so forth. Its energy projects have to be > environmentally-friendly because even a small incident can harm, hurt > or kill a huge number of people. > > Nuclear power is beset with threats and dangers that can encompass > the most improbable meteorite fall to the commonplace terrorist > attack. For instance, The Hindu newspaper (September 6, 2006) reported > that a meteorite fell at Kanvarpura village near Rawatbhata, where > Rajasthan Atomic Power Plant is situated, on August 29, 2006. The > [Geological Survey of India Deputy Director-General (western region) > R. S. Goyal] said the meteorite could have caused devastation on an > 'unimaginable scale' if it had fallen on the Rawatbhata Atomic Power > Plant. Presiding over a crucial day-long meeting of the Chief > Ministers on Internal Security, the Indian Prime Minister said > terrorist outfits planned possible terrorist attacks on vital > installations including nuclear establishments (The Hindu, September > 6, 2006). In fact, two armed men were reportedly seen moving in the > inner fencing area around the Kakrapar nuclear power plant in Gujarat > (The Hindu, August 23, 2006). The plant was declared safe later > without much elaboration. > > Most importantly, nuclearism is a global political ideology that > cannot stomach any transparency, accountability or popular > participation. It snubs dissent, denounces opponents and creates a > political climate of fear and retribution. With the India-US nuclear > deal, and the deals with Russia and France and the private > participation in nuclear energy generation, the situation is going to > get out of hand. The combination of profiteering companies, secretive > state apparatus and repressive nuclear department will be ruthless and > this nexus of capitalism, statism, nuclearism and communalism does not > augur well for the country. These forces gaining an upper hand in our > national polity will mean a death knell for the country's democracy, > openness, futures and sustainable development. > > When the beginning of the 21st century provides India a historic > opportunity to be a world-leader by building on our traditional > strengths such as sustainable development and appropriate technology, > our elites are forcing us to be American stooges with war-based values > and wasteful lifestyle. > > The way out of this capitalistic and imperialistic quandary is to be > progressive and being progressive does not necessarily mean going back > to the days of pastoral simplicity. We need to strive for Green > alternatives for our modern needs. The Leftists with Green values > would be a boon for the country at this hour of crisis. > > We would like to present you with a concrete example. We are sure you > have heard about the Koodankulam nuclear power plant that is being > constructed in the Koodankulam village on the Gulf of Mannar in > Tirunelveli district of Tamil Nadu. The Government of India is > constructing two 1000 MW light water VVER nuclear power plants with > Russian technology and loans. They have not released any Environmental > Impact Assessment (EIA) report, or the safety analysis report or the > site evaluation study for the first two plants they are constructing. > Nor have they conducted any public hearing to hear what the people of > southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala have to say about the construction of > these two nuclear power plants. We in southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala > are very concerned about this undemocratic and anti-people > multimillion dollar project that is thrust down our throats in the > name of "development" and "energy security." > > Neither the Government of India nor the Department of Atomic Energy > (DAE) has shared any information about the Koodankulam plants or > anything about the overall nuclear energy plans with any kind of > transparency, democratic spirit or civic responsibility. They spread > rumors and gossips about their plans and intentions and when these > "unconfirmed reports" circulate among the public for sometime and gain > some negative acceptance, they confirm the hearsays. The Nuclear Power > Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) has decided to increase the > number of reactors at Koodankulam to eight (The Hindu, September 25, > 2006). The National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC) also has proposed > to establish nuclear power plants in or near Koodankulam with the > generating capacity of 2000 MW power (The Hindu, September 6, 2006). > So, as a recent newspaper report confirms (The Hindu, September 11, > 2008) Koodankulam will be the largest mega nuclear complex with almost > 10,000 MW generation capacity. > > Some of the RTI enquiries to the district collectors of a few southern > Tamil Nadu and southern Kerala districts reveal how woefully > inadequate they are about the nuclear safety arrangements and > emergency preparedness. The India-Russia agreement on Koodankulam > stipulated first that Russia would take the nuclear waste but now it > has been decided that the waste will remain in India. There is hardly > any discussion or consciousness among the political or bureaucratic > circles about the nuclear waste issues, decommissioning questions, > radiation hazards, future impact on our seas, fish and so forth. > Nuclear waste management is going to be a major headache for our > people. That is why D. D. Kosambi branded nuclear power as a "menace > that even the unborn generations have to deal with." He further said, > "only opportunists and third rate scientists spend their time and > energies on nuclear power." > > Our people in the southern districts of Tamil Nadu and Kerala are > taking a clear and bold stand that these nuclear power plants are not > in the best interests of us and these projects should be stopped for > ever. The Koodankulam mega nuclear complex will have disastrous > consequences for all of us, the Tamils, the Malayalees, and even the > Sinhalese and the Maldivians in the neighboring countries. > > Friends in Kerala have had such a fine record of fighting for the > Silent Valley, against the soft-drink companies' stealing their water > resources etc. They took such a courageous stand in not having any > nuclear power plants in Kerala because of the over and > dense-population in the state. But the Government of India has pushed > the plant just a little outside their state boundary and set up the > plant right across their front door. > > When 10 nuclear power plants release the coolant effluents into the > sea on daily basis for the next four to five decades, one can think of > the impact and repercussions that will have on all our air, our land, > our water, our sea, our fish, our cattle, our children, our fathers > and mothers, our health, and our future. The vested interests are > trying to set our common home on fire in the name of energy security > and national security. How about our human security? Our food > security? Our air security? The security of our children who speak and > sing in Tamil, Malayalam, Sinhalese and Divehi? Their songs and dances > and their dreamy futures? > > This corner may be the "End of India" for the rest of India! But for > us, this has been the beginning of India, the beginning of life, the > beginning of everything! This place, this little corner of hills and > high seas, rivers and forests, and ponds and paddy fields, is full of > beginnings for us. This is where our life began, our history began, > our culture began, our speech, our memories, our meanings, our dreams > and desires – all began. But what will come off this beautiful place? > > Almost all our political parties, politicians, bureaucrats, religious > leaders, and many NGOs have turned a blind eye to the nuclear issue. > When people ask some uncomfortable questions about the nuclear > project, we are often branded as unpatriotic, anti-national, and even > CIA agents. It is quite ironic that the Indian elites call the people > who oppose the nuclear program CIA agents when they themselves are > selling the country to the Americans. > > Only the Leftists can and may tell us that we, the working class of > India and the neighboring countries, are all human beings, that we all > have a common home, the south of South Asia, that the sea is part and > parcel of our home, and that fish is the most important food for us > all. In short, the people of the south of South Asia share the same > destiny of nuclear agony and only the Leftists can see this at the > larger international picture and offer us a way out. Some Leftists > tend to think that it is only the United States we should oppose and > not nuclear energy per se or nuclear cooperation with Russia or > France. Russia, like America, is also a capitalistic country and is > interested in selling their nuclear technology to India in order to > make some quick bucks. > > It is high time the Left all over India took an unambiguous stand > against expensive, inefficient, dangerous waste-producing, > weapons-proliferating, Nature-harming, future-hurting, > children-killing, colonizing and enslaving nuclear energy without > riders and exceptions and ifs and buts! Nuclearism is no more an > energy issue or a scientific matter but a life-threatening political > issue. The Left parties and leaders can and must make a difference in > the nuclear issue just as you have done in the ongoing global > financial crisis. Hoping that you would take this appeal seriously and > lead us to better futures, we send you our best personal regards and > all peaceful wishes. > > > Cordially, > > S. P. Udayakumar, George Gomez, C. Boaz > Coordinators > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > Ph: 04652-240657; 9865683735 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 19:43:55 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <17DD0BD0-A3CD-4A3E-BFB2-BAC9298EE4C4@sarai.net> Message-ID: <84273.79684.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   Even to be ticked off by you is a pleasure. You who I unabashedly admire even though I often disagree with even if I might find it difficult to articulate my disagreements.   The gentleman suggested a bias in himself by the nature of his post. That is what I pointed out to him. To make it worse it is he who brought attention to his "otherness" and presumed that I was seeking to silence him, exclude him.   I do wish you were equally forthright in 'ticking off' those who have at various times attributed biases to me based on my 'handle'. They have done so without any shred of a word or syllable in my posts that would substantiate their assessment of me.   While I am in the valley of wishes, I also wish you were equally forthright in condemning the List Administrator for de-listing one lone person when at least one other has been more crude in his post (copy of which I sent to the Admin).   Oh yes there have been posting on this List of "matters" from 'other' countries, but Shuddha, join me in some honest objectivity, those are rare sightings. When it comes to social and political commenting, this List has a profusion of India-Bashing. Most times it is blatantly indulged in and is shameful in its superficiality, at other times with naked subtlety or with comments by 'tongues in hypocritical cheeks'.   Given the intellectual accomplishment levels of this list, I wish there was more of India-Introspection, more of India-Critiques. And, of course those attitudes were not just India-Centric.   If this list seeks to soften the 'borders' then there has to be "openness" not only in providing space for postings, but also openness of "Ijtehad" on all fronts from members from all countries and of all dispensations/ideologies. Bashings will only etch deeper the lines of separation.   Kshmendra         --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "Naeem Mohaiemen" , "sarai list" Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 4:50 PM Dear Kshmendra,  Ahem, actually, there have been postings on this list on the situation of minorities in Bangladesh. I would draw your attention to Shambu Rahmat's  recent posting on the removal and desecration of Buddha images in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, (and attendent abuses) and Naeem himself, (actually in response to a post that I wrote on Mass Graves in Kashmir) has also posted on gross human rights violations in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (home to large numbers of non-Muslim indigenous peoples) in Bangladesh. I think you will agree with me that  it is about time we stopped making not very well informed judgements about people's biases on the basis of our assesments of list members identities as revealed by their handles and our speculations about their provenances. thanks and regards,  Shuddha On 06-Oct-08, at 4:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Naeem   I can only comment on what you actually post since I am not privy to the background of your choosing an extract. If you had given that background, maybe your extract would not have seemed provocative. Maybe.   You misrepresent my usage of "As an Indian". It was not meant to exclude or silence you. I neither have the desire nor power to do it. This List is open space and at the very least it seeks to be South Asian.     Why would you object to my sadness "as an Indian" when I register (as noteworthy) the desperation and hopelessness of an Indian expressing itself as ""Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die."?   Was I the one "othering" you? You had already "othered" yourself by choosing as an introduction for your posting the extract  """"...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""".    If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if there are regular postings from you highlighting significant social and political issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the minorities. This list is too India-centric isn't it, as you yourself (I think) have pointed out in the past.     While we are at your "otherness", if you are actually from Bangladesh may I ask you something. It has always intrigued me that if India is such a hellish place for Muslims,  why would Muslims from Bangladesh in fairly large numbers steal in as illegal migrants. What are your thoughts on that?   I ask a similar question from my fellow Indians who talk about India being a "Great Country" and either talk about it already being a Superpower or being on the thresh-hold of becoming a Superpower. I ask them if the truth is anywhere close to their contentions, why would Indians by the thousands leave India and seek employment or education opportunities in other countries.      Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us To: "Sarai Reader List" Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 7:59 PM I had just finished editing a friend's proposed abstract for a conference in Kolkata. Her research looks at the locality of Rajarhat, a formerly fishing/agriculture, now a fast growing IT Hub/new city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarhat The fundamental tension is new IT Park, attracting NRIs and Techno professionals, displacing the old working class inhabitants. Etc etc old story. At one point in the abstract, she highlights this tension by talking about Muslim tenants being refused apartments in this new city. The juxtaposition of course was with the old inhabitants, many of whom were Muslim, but I actually thought it didn't quite work because the displaced population was about 45%-55% Muslim-Hindu. I suggested to her that looking at what happens to upper class Muslims/NRIs/IT Professionals if they seek an apartment, etc may yield examples counter to her hypothesis (since I have a theory that in certain situations economic class trumps race or religion). Having just finished reading/editing that abstract, I found it interesting to stumble on "the line" in the article that seemed to counter, at least in one locality, my hypothesis. As for your use of "As an Indian", interesting exercise in othering to silence/exclude... On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article to serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: """""" even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""""" Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 19:48:13 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <776158.83087.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Naeem   I will respect the value I attribute to your contributions in general to this list by not furthering the argument.   Kshmendra --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 5:21 PM K, Here's how othering works in your emails. You put "as an Indian" right after the sentence where you question why I picked the excerpt I did. SUBTEXT: As an Indian this is what I think is the relevant excerpt, which is far more important than what you, a Bangladeshi, selected. You then write in a follow-up email: "If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if there are regular postings from you highlighting significant social and political issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the minorities." SUBTEXT: If you must post on this list, please post about Bangladesh, which is your country, not India, which is my country. Oh and before talking about our minorities, please fix your minority situation. Shuddha responded by pointing out that many of the Bangladesh related posts on Sarai do come from me, and a portion of that are about Bangladeshi minorities. I can only assume you skipped my posts on BD minority issues. Including my chapter on Religious Minorities (2006) and Ethnic Minorities (2007) for the Ain Salish Kendra Annual Human Rights Report, URLs for which were posted on Sarai. http://shobakorg.blogspot.com/2007/04/sorry-choles.html http://shobak.wordpress.com/2007/05/16/zero/ http://shobakorg.blogspot.com/2006/11/das-tripura.html http://shobakorg.blogspot.com/2007/02/tattered-flag.html http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/03/27/adivasi-07/ Or I could respond to your comment: "if you are actually from Bangladesh may I ask you something. It has always intrigued me that if India is such a hellish place for Muslims, why would Muslims from Bangladesh in fairly large numbers steal in as illegal migrants. What are your thoughts on that?" By giving link to my piece I posted on Sarai a while back: http://www.thedailystar.net/forum/2007/august/bangla.htm But this is a tedious, shopworn and circular exercise. Does this mean I have to trot out my CV regarding minorities in Bangladesh anytime I want to venture an opinion on minority issues inside India? _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 21:00:37 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:00:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810052211l2dda56e7ya56cb8c1e90fc2f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70810052211l2dda56e7ya56cb8c1e90fc2f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810060830u19ea43bj72e4a73daed3a7c@mail.gmail.com> WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . HUMBLY IS On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President ......... > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/06/stories/2008100650100100.htm > > New York: Declaring that India is not a "threat" to his country, Pakistan > President Asif Ali Zardari has described the militants operating in Jammu > and Kashmir as "terrorists," the first such admission by any top Pakistani > leader. > > "India has never been a threat to Pakistan. I, for one, and our democratic > government is not scared of Indian influence abroad," Mr. Zardari told *Wall > Street Journal* in an interview. > > He spoke of the militant groups operating in Kashmir as "terrorists," the > paper said, noting that former President Pervez Musharraf would more likely > have called them "freedom fighters." > > Indicating a major shift in Pakistan's well-known position, Mr. Zardari had, > as chief of the Pakistan People's Party, said in March that the ties between > the two countries should not be held "hostage" to the Kashmir issue, which > should be left for future generations to decide, raising hackles at home. > > The latest positive signals from Mr. Zardari come days after his maiden > meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here on the sidelines of the UN > General Assembly meeting. > > Replying to a question, Mr. Zardari said he had no objection to the > India-U.S. nuclear deal so long as Pakistan was treated "at par." > > "Why would we grudge the largest democracy in the world getting friendly > with one of the oldest democracies?" he said. > > While seeking better ties with New Delhi, he noted that "there is no other > economic survival for nations like us. We have to trade with our neighbours > first." — PTI > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 21:06:22 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:06:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810060830u19ea43bj72e4a73daed3a7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70810052211l2dda56e7ya56cb8c1e90fc2f6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810060830u19ea43bj72e4a73daed3a7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810060836o1c05686av1de23d1690905574@mail.gmail.com> Pawan must have thought; with the sudden attacks on front line media at Sarai recently by Inder Salim and a few others; you must have started boycotting newspapers. So...here comes a noble gesture on part of your Kashmiri Pandit brother Pawan... You see, we can't see any one illiterate...especially our own member of Kashmiri Pandit Community. By the way, seems the Caps Lock button in your keyboard has got stuck inside. Pull it up Inderji... My humble suggestion. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/6/08, inder salim wrote: > > WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? > UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . > > HUMBLY > IS > > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President ......... > > > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/06/stories/2008100650100100.htm > > > > New York: Declaring that India is not a "threat" to his country, Pakistan > > President Asif Ali Zardari has described the militants operating in Jammu > > and Kashmir as "terrorists," the first such admission by any top > Pakistani > > leader. > > > > "India has never been a threat to Pakistan. I, for one, and our > democratic > > government is not scared of Indian influence abroad," Mr. Zardari told > *Wall > > Street Journal* in an interview. > > > > He spoke of the militant groups operating in Kashmir as "terrorists," the > > paper said, noting that former President Pervez Musharraf would more > likely > > have called them "freedom fighters." > > > > Indicating a major shift in Pakistan's well-known position, Mr. Zardari > had, > > as chief of the Pakistan People's Party, said in March that the ties > between > > the two countries should not be held "hostage" to the Kashmir issue, > which > > should be left for future generations to decide, raising hackles at home. > > > > The latest positive signals from Mr. Zardari come days after his maiden > > meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here on the sidelines of the > UN > > General Assembly meeting. > > > > Replying to a question, Mr. Zardari said he had no objection to the > > India-U.S. nuclear deal so long as Pakistan was treated "at par." > > > > "Why would we grudge the largest democracy in the world getting friendly > > with one of the oldest democracies?" he said. > > > > While seeking better ties with New Delhi, he noted that "there is no > other > > economic survival for nations like us. We have to trade with our > neighbours > > first." — PTI > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 21:31:56 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 22:01:56 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <84273.79684.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <17DD0BD0-A3CD-4A3E-BFB2-BAC9298EE4C4@sarai.net> <84273.79684.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: India-centrism, when I first leveled it against this list, was meant to critique hegemony of discussions about India. Positive & Negative. On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Oh yes there have been posting on this List of "matters" from 'other' > countries, but Shuddha, join me in some honest objectivity, those are rare > sightings. When it comes to social and political commenting, this List has a > profusion of India-Bashing. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 22:16:16 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 22:46:16 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: South Asian Heads $700B Bailout Plan Message-ID: Deshi media watchers in New York are agog over this piece of news. South Asian to head $700B bailout plan. This is from SAJA: < An official says the administration has decided to pick a key Treasury Department official to be the interim head of its $700 billion rescue effort for financial institutions. The official said Monday that Neel Kashkari, Treasury's assistant secretary for international affairs, will soon be announced as the interim head of Treasury's new Office of Financial Stability. The official asked not to be identified by name because the selection has not been announced publicly. The 35-year-old Kashkari is a former Goldman Sachs Inc. banker, the investment giant once headed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. The new office was created by the emergency legislation enacted Friday to fund the largest government bailout in history.> karo shorbonash/karo poush mash ;-) From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 23:54:24 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 23:54:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why Maoists so keen on owning up? Message-ID: <6353c690810061124i30f85932m5a73f5929125dca7@mail.gmail.com> Why Maoists so keen on owning up? Express News Service 06 Oct. 2008 Link - http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Why+Maoists+so+keen+on+owning+up?&artid=zrImZwCIbVg=&SectionID=mvKkT3vj5ZA=&MainSectionID=fyV9T2jIa4A=&SectionName=nUFeEOBkuKw=&SEO= BHUBANESWAR: Why are the Maoists so insistent on shouldering responsibility of Swami Lakshamanananda Saraswati's killing? That too after releasing three letters to media during last one month claiming their role in the murder. Weird as it may sound, but by 'repeating' their claim to a select media group Saturday through an interview by a leader of their State chapter that they were behind the August 23 killing has created more suspicion about their intention. After the Swami's murder, CPI (Maoist)'s State Organisation Committee issued three releases to lay claim to the incident. Secretary of the committee Sunil made it amply clear that the radicals killed the VHP leader because they were opposed to his practices in the tribal district. In fact, the Maoists had reportedly left a leaflet at the Tumudibandh ashram - where the incident had occurred - staking claim. The State Government too, in the initial days, toed the line that the murder was the handiwork of the radicals, but never went beyond that. Surprisingly, the Maoist outfit also kept quiet for quite a while before it formally came out with a release to own up responsibility following it up with two others in quick succession. In all the three, the radicals had made it amply clear why they did it. ''So what's the need for making such a fuss about it now? Are they trying to shield anybody? With saffron outfits blaming it on Christian militants, the latest round of revelation has only managed to strengthen the former's claims that the radicals are taking sides. Are they?'' a senior police officer said. However, the fact remains that the Orissa Government has shot itself in its feet by not persisting with the Maoist theory after the first few days. Or, is it a well thought out plan to divert attention from the strife the district is now witnessing since the Centre is breathing down Naveen Patnaik Government's neck and the Maoist leader just a stooge? If yes, who is behind this orchestration? The interview has thrown up a number of such questions. Moreover, it has also raised serious questions on efficiency of the State Government and its police force. If the Maoist leader, wanted by police after the spate of recent violence in the State, can organise an interview, is it difficult for the police to pin him down? Does it not speak volumes of the intelligence network? Or are they going soft on him deliberately? From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 10:48:41 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:48:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810060830u19ea43bj72e4a73daed3a7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70810052211l2dda56e7ya56cb8c1e90fc2f6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810060830u19ea43bj72e4a73daed3a7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810062218y6c7e5f35n803c06660f0e13ae@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder Sir, If you would have read my mail i had written that it was perhaps a very important point when a Pakistan President calls militants in Kashmir as terrorists. Since SARAI list has been debating a lot on Kashmir issue, i thought that this would only add to the ongoing discussion. There are lot of other things which people read ,besides newspapers. The idea is only to provoke a discussion mode on different subjects to achieve more clarity. I see no reason for you to have used upper case in replying for it faulted for two reason. - your mail to me was individual and it should have been addressed offline - Using upper case in E-mail is equivalent to yelling. This is a basic for netiquette. Regards Pawan Durani On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:00 PM, inder salim wrote: > WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? > UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . > > HUMBLY > IS > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President ......... > > > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/06/stories/2008100650100100.htm > > > > New York: Declaring that India is not a "threat" to his country, Pakistan > > President Asif Ali Zardari has described the militants operating in Jammu > > and Kashmir as "terrorists," the first such admission by any top > Pakistani > > leader. > > > > "India has never been a threat to Pakistan. I, for one, and our > democratic > > government is not scared of Indian influence abroad," Mr. Zardari told > *Wall > > Street Journal* in an interview. > > > > He spoke of the militant groups operating in Kashmir as "terrorists," the > > paper said, noting that former President Pervez Musharraf would more > likely > > have called them "freedom fighters." > > > > Indicating a major shift in Pakistan's well-known position, Mr. Zardari > had, > > as chief of the Pakistan People's Party, said in March that the ties > between > > the two countries should not be held "hostage" to the Kashmir issue, > which > > should be left for future generations to decide, raising hackles at home. > > > > The latest positive signals from Mr. Zardari come days after his maiden > > meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh here on the sidelines of the > UN > > General Assembly meeting. > > > > Replying to a question, Mr. Zardari said he had no objection to the > > India-U.S. nuclear deal so long as Pakistan was treated "at par." > > > > "Why would we grudge the largest democracy in the world getting friendly > > with one of the oldest democracies?" he said. > > > > While seeking better ties with New Delhi, he noted that "there is no > other > > economic survival for nations like us. We have to trade with our > neighbours > > first." — PTI > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 11:32:06 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:02:06 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Milia VC: Alienated Generation Message-ID: "In the ultimate analysis, our society, which has gone through the Khalistan movement and experienced terrorism in the Northeast, must look at these incidents in a more cool-headed manner. Because you can't fight it by reacting in a hysterical manner." Tehelka, Oct 11, 2008 ALIENATED GENERATION Nobody dare question our commitment to education and the Indian Constitution by Mushirul Hasan THE EXTENT to which our society is getting polarised along religious lines is very disturbing. If this is the state of affairs almost seven decades after independence, what might happen a few decades later? This is not the time to attribute responsibility to different parties or communities. This is a moment of self-reflection; of trying to find out what gives rise to this mindless violence. The other very disquieting fact is how the electronic media and sections of the Hindi print media have taken upon themselves the responsibility of being the custodian of the nation's interest. The arrogance and intolerance in their coverage reflects a very ominous trend in the history of journalism. I have experienced this recently. The Jamia incident is not a big affair, it could have been easily sorted out, but it was turned into a campaign against a university. Our doors are open to non-Muslims; our teachers are drawn from all communities. Compare our record with that of other so-called secular universities where Muslims have limited access — Benaras Hindu University, Allahabad University, Delhi University itself — then what are we questioning? A student at the London School of Economic (LSE) was nabbed very recently by the police — does it mean that the LSE has become a hotbed of terrorism? This is senseless. I think we have to fight back. We have tolerated this nonsense for far too long. We should take on the media and demonstrate to the people that they are not trustworthy and are out to basically sensationalise events. Jamia Millia is being seen as the Muslim institution that it is not; it is a secular institution funded by the Central Government. The question of legal aid is not being looked at from the perspective of a teacher's responsibility to her students. As the head of the institution, I feel I have an obligation towards my students. And I am not using the taxpayer's money for it. But the real issue is of principle. If this had happened to a non-Muslim student, I would have done the same. I am also upholding the rule of law. Why have we forgotten the principle that says that an accused is innocent until proven guilty? In the ultimate analysis, our society, which has gone through the Khalistan movement and experienced terrorism in the Northeast, must look at these incidents in a more cool-headed manner. Because you can't fight it by reacting in a hysterical manner. Also, our police is becoming more politicised and communalised. We haven't reoriented them into becoming the custodians of the secular values enshrined in the Constitution. Over the past 10 years, there has been a systematic pattern — Deoband University, an institution with a glorious record, has been targeted. So has Nadvat-ul-Ulema in Lucknow. Aligarh University has always been targeted, despite its being a modern institution with its doors open to all. Is there a pattern in this madness? We need to reflect on these issues. The alienation is very deep, and has to stop. But instead of supporting us, which would also mean supporting an institution committed to secular values, there are attempts to undermine our secular foundations. And now we are dealing with a younger generation of Muslims. I believe in a liberal, eclectic and pluralist idea of Islam, but I suspect this vision will not be shared by those who are feeling insecure and excluded, socially and culturally. Why have the guilty in Gujarat not been punished? Why? Why? Why is the VHP and Bajrang Dal not banned for killing innocent Christians and desecrating their churches? I regard myself, as do millions of others, as part of the edifice that is called India. The idea of India is my idea. There is no India without me, and I will not let that change. We have already taken certain steps to counter subversive ideas that might fracture our secular society. I appeal to civil society and the media to let us live in peace, and get on with our simple and innocent job — pursuit of knowledge. There is a limit to what one can tolerate. Nobody dare question our commitment to education, and our loyalty to the Indian Constitution. (Hasan is Vice-Chancellor, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi) >From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 40, Dated Oct 11, 2008 From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 13:23:02 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:23:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] There you go again, Mr.President!! In-Reply-To: <26d013730810070049v36389ee1jed430c331385089f@mail.gmail.com> References: <26d013730810070049v36389ee1jed430c331385089f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810070053u450bce27oc0523947bed85981@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: pooja shali Date: Oct 7, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: There you go again, Mr.President!! There you go again, Mr.President!! Asif Ali Zardari seems to be creating one storm after another. As if his extremely vocal appreciation of Sarah Palin's beauty was not enough, there appeared one more explosion from the late Benazir Bhutto's husband. The recent one, however, is more dramatic and exclusive. In an interview to Bret Stephens of The Wall Street Journal, Zardari confessed to the active presence of militant Islamic groups in J&K (according to him within the Indian occupied border). He elaborated by referring to them as 'terrorists' and continued to say that they are not 'freedom fighters' as Musharraf must have liked. For more visit - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Please do comment and forward. Thanks Pooja Shali From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 13:43:52 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:13:52 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Human Rights Forum on Universal Periodic Review Message-ID: An important report has just been released from the Human Rights Forum on UPR ('the Forum'), Bangladesh. Some allies are involved with this initiative. Download the document or read it online here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/07/upr-2008/ HUMAN RIGHTS FORUM ON UNIVERSAL PERIODIC REVIEW (UPR), BANGLADESH This report has been prepared by the Human Rights Forum on UPR ('the Forum'), Bangladesh, a coalition of 17 human rights and development organisations formed to prepare a joint stakeholders' report under the UPR. Stakeholders 1. Ain o Salish Kendra (ASK), Secretariat 2. Acid Survivors Foundation (ASF) 3. Bangladesh Mohila Parishad (BMP) 4. Bangladesh Institute of Labour Studies (BILS) 5. Bangladesh Legal Aid & Services Trust (BLAST) 6. Bangladesh Dalit and Excluded Rights Movement (BDERM) 7. Centre for Rehabilitation of Torture Survivors (CRTS) 8. D.Net (Development Research Network) 9. Karmojibi Nari (KN) 10. Nagorik Uddyog 11. Nari Uddoyog Kendra (NUK) 12. Nijera Kori 13. Nari Pokkho 14. National Forum of Organizations working with the Disabled (NFOWD) 15. Research and Development Collective (RDC) 16. Steps Towards Development (Steps) 17. Transparency International Bangladesh (TI-B) From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 17:03:21 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:03:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian Left Parties In-Reply-To: <32144e990810060659hfd531aepee12c18153b8fa45@mail.gmail.com> References: <806024.42690.qm@web51809.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <35f96d470810060636g56c8d60dva245b8740fc7d8fb@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810060659hfd531aepee12c18153b8fa45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0810070433x143d4cc1m96f18a2bdc84f46b@mail.gmail.com> Partha, Indian Planning Commission documents clearly state that as far as India is concerned coal is what the govt is plumping for. This group's long statement makes the valid point, among others, that the risks at the low levels that nuclear power can supply are simply not worth it given the several extremely dire hazards they mention at the end. Wind power and biofuels certainly cannot meet current energy requirements, George Monbiot (in his book Heat) and others, though, have given elaborate plans to do so within the European context. I don't think though that it is possible to discuss larger energy needs without minimally locating it within capitalism and the inherent drive for cheap production and consumption it stimulates. Why don't we instead start with the huge ecological crises that capitalism has created - global warming, impending peak oil, loss of species, declining water per capita, etc. Some of these are unprecedented and hence humanity has no prior experience of dealing with crises on this scale. Let us then try to arrive at what is a sane energy consumption pattern (rather than getting stuck in a debate around wind vs. nuclear). It is to state the obvious that such a sane energy pattern has to have equity at its core, and is additionally not possible under capitalism. Nagraj On 06/10/2008, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi, > > You may want to look at the following document: > > www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/*BENEFITS-of-NUCLEAR*.pdf > > A sub-section from the document: > > "Conservation and renewables: > > There are those who tell us we only need to conserve energy and rely upon > renewable > energies. Solar and wind are the major renewables. > > I agree, of course, that conservation is highly commendable, even > essential. > But in the > light of the world's growing population, widespread economic development > and > enhanced life expectancy on the one hand (notably China and India which > account for > about 35% of the world's population) and finite fossil fuel resources on > the > other, > conservation can only delay the crisis that will arise from the penury of > oil and gas. > Energy efficiency and alternate sources of energy can and must be > developed. > Efficient light bulbs produce the same amount of light with 3 to 8 times > less energy. > Heat pumps can provide the same amount of heat with 2 to 5 times less > energy. Solar > heat and geothermal energy can and should be developed to a much greater > extent > than they are today. > > Some environmentalists are enchanted by the simplicity of solar cells and > the pristine > elegance of wind turbines, and they refuse to accept the fact that they are > quantitatively incapable of supplying the energy required by an industrial > civilization > > I do not mean to say that these renewable energies should be excluded; they > are useful > and have important niche roles to play – in remote locations and under > special > circumstances. But they can make only a marginal contribution to the energy > needs of > a growing industrial civilization. > > Let me give an example. To replace just one nuclear reactor, such as the > new > EPR > reactor which France is now building in Normandy, with the most modern wind > turbines (twice as high as Notre-Dame, the Cathedral of Paris), they would > have to be > lined up all the way from Genoa in Italy to Barcelona in Spain (about 700 > kilometers/400miles). And, even so, they generate electricity only when the > wind > blows (their average yield is about 25% of their rated capacity). > > There is much talk about biofuels, ethanol from sugar cane, for example. > The > entire > arable surface of the Earth could not produce enough biofuel to replace > present oil > consumption." > > Rgds, Partha > .................................. > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Anivar Aravind >wrote: > > > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: S. P. Udayakumar > > > > > > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > > October 2, 2008 > > 42/27 Esankai Mani Veethy > > Parakkai Road Junction > > Nagercoil 629 002 > > Tamil Nadu > > > > > > > > > > > > To > > > > The National Executive Members > > Communist Party of India > > Ajoy Bhavan > > 15, Kotla Marg > > New Delhi 110 002 > > > > The Central Committee Members > > Communist Party of India (Marxist) A.K. Gopalan Bhawan 27-29, Bhai Vir > > Singh Marg New Delhi 110 001 > > > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > All India Forward Bloc > > 28, Gurudwara Rakab Ganj Road > > New Delhi 110 001 > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > Revolutionary Socialist Party > > 17, Firoz Shah Road > > New Delhi 110 001 > > > > The Central Committee Members > > Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Liberation > > U-90, Shakarpur > > Delhi 110 092 > > > > Dear Comrades: > > > > > > We, the members of the People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy, would > > like to congratulate the Leftist parties and leaders in India on your > > principled opposition to American imperialism that seeks to dominate > > our national life. We would also like to thank you for problematizing > > the India-US nuclear deal and popularizing the issue across the > > country among all sections of our society. The Leftist parties and > > leaders are the only hope of India to create awareness on > > people-friendly development paradigm; alternative energy generation; > > elimination of war and weapons of mass destruction; and transparency, > > accountability and popular participation in our national affairs. > > > > It is our humble submission that only the Leftist parties and leaders > > can shift the course of our national economy, politics and history in > > India and pave a new way for our collective salvation and freedom. > > After all, human society is based on "production of products" and > > "production of life." Humans act on Nature with the help of > > instruments to get products. Such a production of products must be > > based on needs; but now it is all done with greed damaging the Nature > > irreparably. Should humanity continue on the Earth, Nature should be > > protected! For the "production of life," Nature should be pristine so > > that future generations could thrive on our planet. > > > > However, the contemporary world operates with a wrong understanding of > > "development" that has its focus on indiscriminate industrialization, > > liberalization, privatization, globalization, monetization [and > > Americanization] with complete disregard for Nature, future, the > > interests of the labor, the safety and well-being of unborn > > generations, and other such externalities. > > > > India's ruling class says that if India has to achieve and sustain the > > desired growth level of 9-10 percent, the country has to have energy > > security, or as some nationalist leaders put it, energy independence. > > In India, electricity has always been considered to be a development > > input but now it has come to be regarded as a tradable commodity. Of > > the 593,732 villages in India (1991 census) 474,982 have been > > electrified with the remarkable 80 percent electrification. But if we > > look at the electrification of rural households, we see a different > > picture. There are some 138.3 million rural households (2001 census) > > in India but only 60.2 million of them have access to electricity and > > the electrification percentage is only 44 percent. So it is not that > > electricity is not available in their villages for these rural > > households but they simply cannot afford it. It is poverty that > > prevents them from accessing electricity. > > > > Although India has more or less sufficient quantity of electricity > > today, a considerable portion of our electricity is said to be wasted > > because of technical and commercial factors. Some 40% of electricity > > is lost in transmission because of energy dissipation in conductors > > and equipment used for Transmission and Distribution (T&D). Pilferage, > > defective meters, error in meter reading, error in estimating > > unmetered supply are other reasons for this huge wastage of > > electricity. So the challenges India faces today include reducing and > > eliminating T&D loss, improving the quality of supply and delivery > > systems, providing electricity for all at affordable price, and > > improving the economic lot of all the people across the country. > > > > Ignoring all these socioeconomic-political intricacies and > > complexities, India's ruling class seeks a scientific-technical > > solution for the energy issue and keeps chanting the nuclear mantra. > > They completely overlook the facts that there have been no new nuclear > > power stations built in the United States for the past 35 years and in > > Russia for almost 22 years, and that many European countries are > > phasing out their nuclear power program. There is hardly any debate > > about the enormous amount of dangerous nuclear waste we will > > accumulate from the nuclear power plants, the need to safeguard this > > "hazmat treasure" for 48,000 years, huge amounts of heavy metals > > discharged by light and heavy water reactors, radiation blues, shoving > > around fissile material, nuclear weapons proliferation, and Armageddon > > on the Earth. > > > > In fact, American, Russian and French capitalists try to dump their > > nuclear technology on India for their own survival and profit. Global > > capitalism turns any calamity to its advantage, and it puts forward > > nuclear power as the answer for climate change. If we look closely, > > mining and processing of uranium, building nuclear power stations with > > so much cement and steel, the long construction process, the > > decommissioning of the plants, and handling the radioactive waste - > > all cause considerable climate-changing pollution. > > > > Just as nuclear power is not an answer for climate change, it is not a > > panacea for our energy needs. As the People's Democracy and many of > > the Leftist leaders have pointed out, the contribution of nuclear > > power to the national grid has been so small and will continue to be > > so even after the India-US nuclear deal comes into effect. Nuclear > > power is also more expensive than any other mode of electricity > > generation. > > > > Global capitalism promotes nuclear power as the single solution for > > all the world's energy woes and its economic development. In India, so > > much money has already been wasted on nuclear power projects that are > > expensive, inefficient and troublesome. Since the current cash crunch > > is mainly due to nuclear power being very expensive and capital > > intensive, Indian nuclear establishment has expressed interest in > > inviting private investments and amending nuclear laws to facilitate > > privatization. What all this means is that while private companies > > make money with no responsibilities whatsoever, Indian taxpayers and > > the "ordinary citizens" will bear the cost of dealing with all the > > liabilities such as nuclear waste, possible accidents, public health > > issues and other dangerous consequences. > > > > The international and Indian capitalists will thrive at the cost of > > India's poor. National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganized > > Sector reveals that 320 million Indian workers live on less than 20 > > rupees a day. The National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) has recorded > > 1,66,304 farmers' suicides in a decade since 1997. There were 17,060 > > farmers' suicides in 2006 alone across India. All these mean that > > there has been one farmer's suicide every 30 minutes since 2002 (The > > Hindu, January 31, 2008). When our people lack basic food security, > > water security, sanitation security, job security, and human security, > > energy security is bandied about to promote the interests of the rich > > and powerful. > > > > Nobody except the Leftists dares to challenge any nuclear activity in > > the country. In fact, the present > > pro-military-industrial-academic-complex-thinking considers uranium > > mining, nuclear power plants, nuclear weaponization, nuclear deals > > with Americans, Russians and the French, and strategic partnerships > > with them as integral parts of being a patriotic Indian. Nuclearism > > has been part and parcel of the Northern capitalist development > > paradigm and the UPA government is underscoring this aspect to gain an > > upper hand in the national political game. An unequivocal > > problematization of this mainstream understanding of "development" has > > become the need of the hour. > > > > A highly populated country like India does have an increasing need for > > energy. But that energy has to be economical, sustainable and > > environment-friendly for the same reason of having over- and dense- > > population. The country needs to spend less on energy because there > > are other pressing needs such as health, education, housing, > > transportation and so forth. India cannot afford the "use and > > discord" strategy as in nuclear power projects for obvious reasons of > > limited land availability, reliance on the sea and sea food, future > > generation's interests and so forth. Its energy projects have to be > > environmentally-friendly because even a small incident can harm, hurt > > or kill a huge number of people. > > > > Nuclear power is beset with threats and dangers that can encompass > > the most improbable meteorite fall to the commonplace terrorist > > attack. For instance, The Hindu newspaper (September 6, 2006) reported > > that a meteorite fell at Kanvarpura village near Rawatbhata, where > > Rajasthan Atomic Power Plant is situated, on August 29, 2006. The > > [Geological Survey of India Deputy Director-General (western region) > > R. S. Goyal] said the meteorite could have caused devastation on an > > 'unimaginable scale' if it had fallen on the Rawatbhata Atomic Power > > Plant. Presiding over a crucial day-long meeting of the Chief > > Ministers on Internal Security, the Indian Prime Minister said > > terrorist outfits planned possible terrorist attacks on vital > > installations including nuclear establishments (The Hindu, September > > 6, 2006). In fact, two armed men were reportedly seen moving in the > > inner fencing area around the Kakrapar nuclear power plant in Gujarat > > (The Hindu, August 23, 2006). The plant was declared safe later > > without much elaboration. > > > > Most importantly, nuclearism is a global political ideology that > > cannot stomach any transparency, accountability or popular > > participation. It snubs dissent, denounces opponents and creates a > > political climate of fear and retribution. With the India-US nuclear > > deal, and the deals with Russia and France and the private > > participation in nuclear energy generation, the situation is going to > > get out of hand. The combination of profiteering companies, secretive > > state apparatus and repressive nuclear department will be ruthless and > > this nexus of capitalism, statism, nuclearism and communalism does not > > augur well for the country. These forces gaining an upper hand in our > > national polity will mean a death knell for the country's democracy, > > openness, futures and sustainable development. > > > > When the beginning of the 21st century provides India a historic > > opportunity to be a world-leader by building on our traditional > > strengths such as sustainable development and appropriate technology, > > our elites are forcing us to be American stooges with war-based values > > and wasteful lifestyle. > > > > The way out of this capitalistic and imperialistic quandary is to be > > progressive and being progressive does not necessarily mean going back > > to the days of pastoral simplicity. We need to strive for Green > > alternatives for our modern needs. The Leftists with Green values > > would be a boon for the country at this hour of crisis. > > > > We would like to present you with a concrete example. We are sure you > > have heard about the Koodankulam nuclear power plant that is being > > constructed in the Koodankulam village on the Gulf of Mannar in > > Tirunelveli district of Tamil Nadu. The Government of India is > > constructing two 1000 MW light water VVER nuclear power plants with > > Russian technology and loans. They have not released any Environmental > > Impact Assessment (EIA) report, or the safety analysis report or the > > site evaluation study for the first two plants they are constructing. > > Nor have they conducted any public hearing to hear what the people of > > southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala have to say about the construction of > > these two nuclear power plants. We in southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala > > are very concerned about this undemocratic and anti-people > > multimillion dollar project that is thrust down our throats in the > > name of "development" and "energy security." > > > > Neither the Government of India nor the Department of Atomic Energy > > (DAE) has shared any information about the Koodankulam plants or > > anything about the overall nuclear energy plans with any kind of > > transparency, democratic spirit or civic responsibility. They spread > > rumors and gossips about their plans and intentions and when these > > "unconfirmed reports" circulate among the public for sometime and gain > > some negative acceptance, they confirm the hearsays. The Nuclear Power > > Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) has decided to increase the > > number of reactors at Koodankulam to eight (The Hindu, September 25, > > 2006). The National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC) also has proposed > > to establish nuclear power plants in or near Koodankulam with the > > generating capacity of 2000 MW power (The Hindu, September 6, 2006). > > So, as a recent newspaper report confirms (The Hindu, September 11, > > 2008) Koodankulam will be the largest mega nuclear complex with almost > > 10,000 MW generation capacity. > > > > Some of the RTI enquiries to the district collectors of a few southern > > Tamil Nadu and southern Kerala districts reveal how woefully > > inadequate they are about the nuclear safety arrangements and > > emergency preparedness. The India-Russia agreement on Koodankulam > > stipulated first that Russia would take the nuclear waste but now it > > has been decided that the waste will remain in India. There is hardly > > any discussion or consciousness among the political or bureaucratic > > circles about the nuclear waste issues, decommissioning questions, > > radiation hazards, future impact on our seas, fish and so forth. > > Nuclear waste management is going to be a major headache for our > > people. That is why D. D. Kosambi branded nuclear power as a "menace > > that even the unborn generations have to deal with." He further said, > > "only opportunists and third rate scientists spend their time and > > energies on nuclear power." > > > > Our people in the southern districts of Tamil Nadu and Kerala are > > taking a clear and bold stand that these nuclear power plants are not > > in the best interests of us and these projects should be stopped for > > ever. The Koodankulam mega nuclear complex will have disastrous > > consequences for all of us, the Tamils, the Malayalees, and even the > > Sinhalese and the Maldivians in the neighboring countries. > > > > Friends in Kerala have had such a fine record of fighting for the > > Silent Valley, against the soft-drink companies' stealing their water > > resources etc. They took such a courageous stand in not having any > > nuclear power plants in Kerala because of the over and > > dense-population in the state. But the Government of India has pushed > > the plant just a little outside their state boundary and set up the > > plant right across their front door. > > > > When 10 nuclear power plants release the coolant effluents into the > > sea on daily basis for the next four to five decades, one can think of > > the impact and repercussions that will have on all our air, our land, > > our water, our sea, our fish, our cattle, our children, our fathers > > and mothers, our health, and our future. The vested interests are > > trying to set our common home on fire in the name of energy security > > and national security. How about our human security? Our food > > security? Our air security? The security of our children who speak and > > sing in Tamil, Malayalam, Sinhalese and Divehi? Their songs and dances > > and their dreamy futures? > > > > This corner may be the "End of India" for the rest of India! But for > > us, this has been the beginning of India, the beginning of life, the > > beginning of everything! This place, this little corner of hills and > > high seas, rivers and forests, and ponds and paddy fields, is full of > > beginnings for us. This is where our life began, our history began, > > our culture began, our speech, our memories, our meanings, our dreams > > and desires – all began. But what will come off this beautiful place? > > > > Almost all our political parties, politicians, bureaucrats, religious > > leaders, and many NGOs have turned a blind eye to the nuclear issue. > > When people ask some uncomfortable questions about the nuclear > > project, we are often branded as unpatriotic, anti-national, and even > > CIA agents. It is quite ironic that the Indian elites call the people > > who oppose the nuclear program CIA agents when they themselves are > > selling the country to the Americans. > > > > Only the Leftists can and may tell us that we, the working class of > > India and the neighboring countries, are all human beings, that we all > > have a common home, the south of South Asia, that the sea is part and > > parcel of our home, and that fish is the most important food for us > > all. In short, the people of the south of South Asia share the same > > destiny of nuclear agony and only the Leftists can see this at the > > larger international picture and offer us a way out. Some Leftists > > tend to think that it is only the United States we should oppose and > > not nuclear energy per se or nuclear cooperation with Russia or > > France. Russia, like America, is also a capitalistic country and is > > interested in selling their nuclear technology to India in order to > > make some quick bucks. > > > > It is high time the Left all over India took an unambiguous stand > > against expensive, inefficient, dangerous waste-producing, > > weapons-proliferating, Nature-harming, future-hurting, > > children-killing, colonizing and enslaving nuclear energy without > > riders and exceptions and ifs and buts! Nuclearism is no more an > > energy issue or a scientific matter but a life-threatening political > > issue. The Left parties and leaders can and must make a difference in > > the nuclear issue just as you have done in the ongoing global > > financial crisis. Hoping that you would take this appeal seriously and > > lead us to better futures, we send you our best personal regards and > > all peaceful wishes. > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > S. P. Udayakumar, George Gomez, C. Boaz > > Coordinators > > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > > Ph: 04652-240657; 9865683735 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Oct 7 17:21:09 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:21:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gurgaon Workers News References: <910838.22604.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear All, Below is an interesting newsletter on workers and their experiences and struggles from Gurgaon, New Delhi's neighbour in Haryana. I thought that it would be of interest to several people on this list. regards Shuddha > > Gurgaon Workers News - Newsletter 13 (October 2008) > (full version at: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com) > > Gurgaon in Haryana is presented as the shining India, a symbol of > capitalist success promising a better life for everyone behind the > gateway of development. At a first glance the office towers and > shopping malls reflect this chimera and even the facades of the > garment factories look like three star hotels. Behind the facade, > behind the factory walls and in the side streets of the industrial > areas thousands of workers keep the rat-race going, producing cars > and scooters for the middle-classes which end up in the traffic jam > on the new highway between Delhi and Gurgaon. Thousands of young > middle class people lose time, energy and academic aspirations on > night-shifts in call centres, selling loan schemes to working-class > people in the US or pre-paid electricity schemes to the poor in the > UK. Next door, thousands of rural-migrant workers uprooted by the > agrarian crisis stitch and sew for export, competing with their > angry brothers and sisters in Bangladesh or Vietnam. And the rat- > race will not stop; on the outskirts of Gurgaon, Asia's biggest > Special Economic Zone is in the making. The following newsletter > documents some of the developments in and around this miserable > boom region. If you want to know more about working and struggling > in Gurgaon, if you want more info about or even contribute to this > project, please do so via: > > www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com > gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk > > In the October issue you can find: > > 1) Proletarian Experiences - > Daily life stories and reports from a workers' perspective > > *** Gated Communities and Repressive Social Paranoia > With the increasing spatial concentration of wealth and misery, of > upward opportunities and downward spirals, those who feel > privileged tend to feel threatened. In that way Gurgaon is a > landscape of mass-psychosis. The faceless dominance of exploitation > - the assembly line, the export markets and real estate shares - > have to congeal in physical people: the managing middle-classes, > which are forced to live too close to the impoverished cogs of the > game. Some notes on the consequent urban armament: gated > communities, increased repression in the local prisons, more CCTV, > more police... > > *** Ten Construction Workers Die after Accident in Gurgaon > The main driving force and victims of the construction boom are the > construction workers themselves. In times of credit crunches real > estate developers and construction companies try to squeeze margins > and cut corners. In September this resulted in the death of ten > construction workers in Gurgaon, ten workers deaths that we heard > about that is. > > *** Short Report from Orient Fan / Wal-Mart Worker > The factory is situated in Faridabad, Sector 6, Plot 11. When a > representative of Wal-Mart visits the factory, all workers hired > through contractors are told not to come to the factory. Wal-Mart > sends its reps once a year and then it's always this very same > procedure: the 'inofficial' workers have to turn invisible. In the > last year the factory produced 200,000 fans for Wal-Mart. The shift > times in the Blade department, the paint shop, the air flow and the > packing department are 12 to 12 and a half hours. Published in > Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar (FMS), July 2008. > > *** Yet another list of short information from workers employed at > different companies in Gurgaon - Continuation of short reports of > workers from Achiever Creation, Elite Medical, Radnik Export, Rolex > Auto, Viva Global, gathered and published in FMS, July 2008. > > 2) Collective Action - > Reports on proletarian struggles in the area > > *** Wildcat Sit-Down Strike at HMSI > Short news item on yet another short wildcat action by casual > workers and workers hired through contractors at Honda HMSI. The > green-field factory - only opened seven years ago - has already > developed a tradition of unrest (see GurgaonWorkersNews No.7). > Sources said about 1,500 contractual and casual workers of HMSI > have gone on a sit-in protest, on 6th of September 2008. The strike > was triggered when a factory supervisor slapped and manhandled a > worker after a scuffle during the night shift > > *** After wild-cat strike and mass-dismissals: Factory manager of > automobile supplier in NOIDA got killed during workers' unrest > Two weeks after the wildcat-strike at Honda, another wild-cat > strike of workers hired through contractors employed by the > automobile industry ended in a bloody mess, just around the corner. > In NOIDA, a group of sacked workers killed the factory manager of > an Italian automobile supplier, Graziano Transmissioni. The workers > had gone on strike for higher wages, the management refused the > demand and sacked 200 workers, a riot started, security guards > fired, the manager was alledgedly beaten to death. It could happen > anywhere at any time again: sacked workers, a replicable dead > manager, and 130 detained and charged workers - 60 of them with > murder - facing legal repression. > > 3) According to Plan - > General information on the development of the region or on certain > company policies > > *** The Bloody Real Estate of Crisis > On 13th of August 2008 on a protest march in NOIDA, another > satellite town of Delhi, several farmers were shot dead by the > police and dozens got injured. The farmers demanded higher > compensation for the land which they had sold to a public > development authority some years ago. If the protests in NOIDA and > the demands for higher compensations are the rock of the current > crisis of the real estate sector then the rising interest rates, > the rising prices for construction material and the recession of > the US economy is its hard place. The current drop in real estate > prices and of the shares of private developers like Gurgaon based > DLF - the biggest in India - is more than a mere adjustment in the > market swing of supply and demand. The situation of the sector can > be described as a blocked pressure valve of the wider economy. The > rising inflation of proletarian goods increased the pressure from > below: workers particularly in the urban industries are getting > restless. In this blocked and intertwined situation those in power > are aware and afraid of any possible trigger effects, tipping > points, chain reactions - and be it a small protest of farmers in a > suburb of Delhi. A glimpse on the current crisis... > > *** Hells Bells - Glimpses on Current Trends in Gurgaon's Call > Centre Sector > In August 2008 the newspapers announced the lay-offs of hundreds of > call centre workers, many of them in Gurgaon. The reasons given for > the job cuts are the recession in the US and the high costs for > office rents. We summarised some news on the sector. We start with > an article reporting on the attempt of the regional BPO industry to > counteract the tendency of workers changing jobs too quickly - by > setting up a sector-wide 'investigation company' which is supposed > to provide a kind of 'black list' of the worst job hoppers. The > second article was published in April 2008 and describes a > potentially booming new trend from the US: cutting costs of private > debt collection by outsourcing it. Following a summary of articles > on various job cuts at major call centre companies in Gurgaon. We > finish with two short notes, one concerning the many road deaths in > Delhi-Gurgaon caused by speeding call centre cabs - a result of the > enormously long working hours and time pressure which is put on the > drivers. The last note is on the effect of call centre work on > gender relations and the emergence of a kind of call centre workers > caste. > > *** Energy Crunch and Destructive Forces in Gurgaon > Machines have to run 24 hours a day in order to suck up enough of > human energy for profitable consumption, but the frequent power > cuts pose a serious problem to the local industry. Maruti runs its > own power-plant and in the way most of the factories and call > centres in the industrial belt around Delhi do: burning fossil > fuels in their generators. About 350,000,000 litre of diesel are > consumed each year by these industrial units. The rising price of > diesel hits hard. Nearly Rs 14,000,000,000 per annum is spent on > diesel for running gensets by about 40,000 industrial units in > Faridabad, Gurgaon, NOIDA. This sum amounts to an annual wage sum > of about 430,000 workers. The machine has to keep on running, > energy is turned into destruction of human health and environment - > and into business, e.g. by carbon emission trading. For good > reasons the Deutsche Gesellschaft fuer Technische Zusammenarbeit > (GTZ) GmbH ‚ (German Technical Cooperation), opened their carbon > emission trading office for India right in the centre of the > polluting money-machine - in Gurgaon. > > 4) About the Project - > Updates on Gurgaon Workers News > > *** Glossary - > Updated version of the Glossary: things that you always wanted to > know, but could never be bothered to google. Now even in > alphabetical order. > > News from the Special Exploitation Zone - > www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sunil at mahiti.org Tue Oct 7 17:44:17 2008 From: sunil at mahiti.org (Sunil Abraham) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:44:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open Access Day Message-ID: <1223381657.6627.41.camel@goli.lan.deeproot.in> With the usual apologies for x-posting! Centre for Culture, Media & Governance, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi and Cente for Internet and Society, Bangalore, request your presence at the celebrations of the first Open Access Day on 14th October 2008, at Tagore Hall, Dayar-i-Mir Taqi Mir, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi Agenda 1400 – 1415 Welcome and Introduction – Prof. Biswajit Das, Director, Centre for Culture, Media & Governance, Jamia Millia Islamia 1415 – 1535 Chair: Prof. Arif Ali, Head Dept. of Bio-Technology, Jamia Milia Islamia Panelists: 1. Mr. Zakir Thomas, Project Director - Open Source Drug Discovery 2. Dr. Anshu Bhardwaj, Scientist CSIR, New Delhi. 3. Dr. Andrew Lynn, Professor, Department of Bio-informatics, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. 4. Prof. Subbiah Arunachalam, Distinguished Fellow, Centre for Internet and Society 1535 – 1600 Questions and Answers Open Discussion 1600 - 1615 Vote of thanks and closure by Sunil Abraham, Director – Policy, Centre for Internet and Society. End with Tea/Coffee About the Open Access Movement Open Access1 is a growing international movement that uses the Internet to throw open the locked doors that once hid knowledge. It encourages the unrestricted sharing of research results with everyone, everywhere, for the advancement and enjoyment of science and society. Open Access is the principle that publicly funded research should be freely accessible online, immediately after publication, and it’s gaining ever more momentum around the world as research funders and policy makers put their weight behind it. The Open Access philosophy was firmly articulated in 2002, when the Budapest Open Access Initiative was introduced. It quickly took root in the scientific and medical communities because it offered an alternative route to research literature that was frequently closed off behind costly subscription barriers. Today, the OAIster search engine provides access to 17,799,314 Open Access records from 1015 contributors. According to the Directory of Open Access Journals – India publishes 105 Open Access journals. Both INSA and IASc have made their journals open access journals. Indian Institute of Science has an EPrints repository and it has over 11,000 papers and this year, the Institute's centenary year, the number is expected to cross 23,000. NIT, Rourkela, has mandated open access to all faculty research papers. There are about thirty OA institutional repositories in India today. The IITs and IISc have formed a consortium and are making their class lectures open access under a project called NPTEL. These lectures are available in web, video and YouTube formats. About Open Access Day October 14, 2008 will be the world’s first Open Access Day. The founding partners for this Day are SPARC (the Scholarly Publishing and Academic Resources Coalition), Students for FreeCulture, and the Public Library of Science. Open Access Day will help to broaden awareness and understanding of Open Access, including recent mandates and emerging policies, within the international higher education community and the general public. Contact Details: New Delhi Vibodh Parthasarathi Reader/Associate Professor Centre for Culture, Media and Governance Nelson Mandela House, Mujib Bagh Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi 110 025 P.: +91 11 26933810. 26933842 M: +91 9873458688 E: ccmgjmi at gmail.com W: http://jmi.nic.in/ccmg Bangalore Sunil Abraham Director - Policy Centre for Internet and Society No. D2, 3rd Floor, Sheriff Chambers 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560 052 P: +91 80 4092 6283 F: +91 80 4114 8130 M: +91 9611100817 E: sunil at cis-india.org W: www.cis-india.org From sunil at mahiti.org Tue Oct 7 17:44:28 2008 From: sunil at mahiti.org (Sunil Abraham) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:44:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open Access Day Message-ID: <1223381668.6627.43.camel@goli.lan.deeproot.in> With the usual apologies for x-posting! Centre for Culture, Media & Governance, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi and Centre for Internet and Society, Bangalore, request your presence at the celebrations of the first Open Access Day on 14th October 2008, at Tagore Hall, Dayar-i-Mir Taqi Mir, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi Agenda 1400 – 1415 Welcome and Introduction – Prof. Biswajit Das, Director, Centre for Culture, Media & Governance, Jamia Millia Islamia 1415 – 1535 Chair: Prof. Arif Ali, Head Dept. of Bio-Technology, Jamia Milia Islamia Panelists: 1. Mr. Zakir Thomas, Project Director - Open Source Drug Discovery 2. Dr. Anshu Bhardwaj, Scientist CSIR, New Delhi. 3. Dr. Andrew Lynn, Professor, Department of Bio-informatics, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. 4. Prof. Subbiah Arunachalam, Distinguished Fellow, Centre for Internet and Society 1535 – 1600 Questions and Answers Open Discussion 1600 - 1615 Vote of thanks and closure by Sunil Abraham, Director – Policy, Centre for Internet and Society. End with Tea/Coffee About the Open Access Movement Open Access1 is a growing international movement that uses the Internet to throw open the locked doors that once hid knowledge. It encourages the unrestricted sharing of research results with everyone, everywhere, for the advancement and enjoyment of science and society. Open Access is the principle that publicly funded research should be freely accessible online, immediately after publication, and it’s gaining ever more momentum around the world as research funders and policy makers put their weight behind it. The Open Access philosophy was firmly articulated in 2002, when the Budapest Open Access Initiative was introduced. It quickly took root in the scientific and medical communities because it offered an alternative route to research literature that was frequently closed off behind costly subscription barriers. Today, the OAIster search engine provides access to 17,799,314 Open Access records from 1015 contributors. According to the Directory of Open Access Journals – India publishes 105 Open Access journals. Both INSA and IASc have made their journals open access journals. Indian Institute of Science has an EPrints repository and it has over 11,000 papers and this year, the Institute's centenary year, the number is expected to cross 23,000. NIT, Rourkela, has mandated open access to all faculty research papers. There are about thirty OA institutional repositories in India today. The IITs and IISc have formed a consortium and are making their class lectures open access under a project called NPTEL. These lectures are available in web, video and YouTube formats. About Open Access Day October 14, 2008 will be the world’s first Open Access Day. The founding partners for this Day are SPARC (the Scholarly Publishing and Academic Resources Coalition), Students for FreeCulture, and the Public Library of Science. Open Access Day will help to broaden awareness and understanding of Open Access, including recent mandates and emerging policies, within the international higher education community and the general public. Contact Details: New Delhi Vibodh Parthasarathi Reader/Associate Professor Centre for Culture, Media and Governance Nelson Mandela House, Mujib Bagh Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi 110 025 P.: +91 11 26933810. 26933842 M: +91 9873458688 E: ccmgjmi at gmail.com W: http://jmi.nic.in/ccmg Bangalore Sunil Abraham Director - Policy Centre for Internet and Society No. D2, 3rd Floor, Sheriff Chambers 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560 052 P: +91 80 4092 6283 F: +91 80 4114 8130 M: +91 9611100817 E: sunil at cis-india.org W: www.cis-india.org From turbulence at turbulence.org Tue Oct 7 01:35:27 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:05:27 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Networked: a (networked_book) about (networked_art) Message-ID: <03f301c927ee$e66de030$b349a090$@org> PLEASE HELP US GET THE WORD OUT ABOUT: Networked: a (networked_book) about (networked_art) A Juried International Competition Call for Proposals Deadline: December 15, 2008 http://turbulence.org/networked Five writers will be commissioned to develop chapters for a networked book about networked art. The chapters will be open for revision, commentary, and translation by online collaborators. Each commissioned writer will receive $3,000 (US). Networked Committee: Steve Dietz (Northern Lights, MN) :: Martha CC Gabriel (net artist, Brazil) :: Geert Lovink (Institute for Network Cultures, The Netherlands) :: Nick Montfort (Massachusetts Institute for Technology, MA) :: Anne Bray (LA Freewaves, LA) :: Sean Dockray (Telic Arts Exchange, LA) :: Jo-Anne Green (NRPA, MA) :: Eduardo Navas (newmediaFIX) :: Helen Thorington (NRPA, NY) Networked Partners: New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc. (NRPA) :: newmediaFIX :: LA Freewaves :: Telic Arts Exchange "A networked book is an open book designed to be written, edited and read in a networked environment." - Institute for the Future of the Book Networked Goals: (1) To commission five chapters and publish them online using Wiki/blog technology to enable the public to revise, update, debate and translate them (2) To present public forums to publicize the online book and solicit participation in its development. Networked Objectives: :: To develop and publish an online, trans-disciplinary book that will address recent artistic developments made possible by computers, networks, and mobile connectivity :::: To present the book in an open, participatory and social form :::::: To document: :::::::::: the collapse of the traditional distinction between artist, art work and audience :::::::::: the shaping of creative practice that is open, contingent and participatory :::::::::: the building of virtual communities which, in the words of Howard Rheingold, "becomes inevitable wherever computer mediated communications technology becomes available to people anywhere." (The Virtual Community, 1993) We invite contributions that critically and creatively rethink how networked art is categorized, analyzed, legitimized -- and by whom -- as norms of authority, trust, authenticity and legitimacy evolve. "Networked" proposes that a history or critique of interactive and/or participatory art must itself be interactive and/or participatory; that the technologies used to create a work suggest new forms a "book" might take. We hope to spark a conversation between researchers and practitioners, curators, artists, and academics in the fields of art (music, sound, dance, e-lit, visual art .), architecture, convergence, mapping, urbanism, games, sociology, visualization, cultural studies, and environmental studies. In keeping with the transdisciplinary nature of the book, authors may consider, but are by no means limited to, themes such as: :: cyberspace and identity :: ubiquitous computing - surveillance, politics, and privacy :: avatars, wearables, bioart and embodiment :: collective storytelling, audio narratives and sound art :: virtual worlds, mixed realities :: locative media - place, mobility, augmented reality :: massively multiplayer online games - networked play :: responsive architecture and relational environments :: social networks :: nomadism, psychogeography, and the city :: tactical media - performance, agency and activism :: open source and crowdsourcing :: Originality, copies, remix, mashup All papers will be reviewed by our international committee. Commissioned chapters, as well as contributions by collaborators, will be subject to the Creative Commons License Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0/Unported: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ Once the chapters are published online, registered users will be able to revise, add to, and translate the existing texts. There is no end date for the project. When "Networked" has attracted substantive participation, we will consider publishing a print version of the project, which may itself be updated over time. GUIDELINES: Submissions must be based on original, unpublished research. They should include: 1. Name, address, URL, email and one page CV of author. 2. A 1000 word proposal that should be accompanied by an abstract of no more than 250 words and a list of keywords to indicate the subject area of the chapter. [Each of the commissioned chapters will contain text, images, videos, and/or audio.] 3. Three networked writing samples. Samples may include a blog entry, a Wikipedia article the applicant worked on extensively, or samples from any other participatory project (send URLs). Acceptable Submission Formats: Either a web page (send url in an email) or a single text document (send as an email attachment) Final chapters must be no less than 5,000 words. Submissions and Questions should be sent to: jo at turbulence dot org IMPORTANT DATES Deadline for Proposals: December 15, 2008 Notification: January 31, 2009 Deadline for Complete Chapters: April 30, 2009 Online Publication Date: July 1, 2009 Join our Facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=82123410550 Funded by the National Endowment for the Arts. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 19:02:42 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 06:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian Left Parties In-Reply-To: <564b2fca0810070433x143d4cc1m96f18a2bdc84f46b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <411324.14885.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have a question for Nagraj, Partha (or any other informed person).   Are any of the currently functioning Nuclear Power installations in India being used for generating CLEAN WATER (desalination or otherwise) for public distribution? I know there have been proposals. Has any of them been put into practice?   For de-salination, there is also the innovative concept of Floating Nuclear Power Plants. Floating on sea. Russia was going to build one.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Nagraj Adve wrote: From: Nagraj Adve Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian Left Parties To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 5:03 PM Partha, Indian Planning Commission documents clearly state that as far as India is concerned coal is what the govt is plumping for. This group's long statement makes the valid point, among others, that the risks at the low levels that nuclear power can supply are simply not worth it given the several extremely dire hazards they mention at the end. Wind power and biofuels certainly cannot meet current energy requirements, George Monbiot (in his book Heat) and others, though, have given elaborate plans to do so within the European context. I don't think though that it is possible to discuss larger energy needs without minimally locating it within capitalism and the inherent drive for cheap production and consumption it stimulates. Why don't we instead start with the huge ecological crises that capitalism has created - global warming, impending peak oil, loss of species, declining water per capita, etc. Some of these are unprecedented and hence humanity has no prior experience of dealing with crises on this scale. Let us then try to arrive at what is a sane energy consumption pattern (rather than getting stuck in a debate around wind vs. nuclear). It is to state the obvious that such a sane energy pattern has to have equity at its core, and is additionally not possible under capitalism. Nagraj On 06/10/2008, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Hi, > > You may want to look at the following document: > > www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/*BENEFITS-of-NUCLEAR*.pdf > > A sub-section from the document: > > "Conservation and renewables: > > There are those who tell us we only need to conserve energy and rely upon > renewable > energies. Solar and wind are the major renewables. > > I agree, of course, that conservation is highly commendable, even > essential. > But in the > light of the world's growing population, widespread economic development > and > enhanced life expectancy on the one hand (notably China and India which > account for > about 35% of the world's population) and finite fossil fuel resources on > the > other, > conservation can only delay the crisis that will arise from the penury of > oil and gas. > Energy efficiency and alternate sources of energy can and must be > developed. > Efficient light bulbs produce the same amount of light with 3 to 8 times > less energy. > Heat pumps can provide the same amount of heat with 2 to 5 times less > energy. Solar > heat and geothermal energy can and should be developed to a much greater > extent > than they are today. > > Some environmentalists are enchanted by the simplicity of solar cells and > the pristine > elegance of wind turbines, and they refuse to accept the fact that they are > quantitatively incapable of supplying the energy required by an industrial > civilization > > I do not mean to say that these renewable energies should be excluded; they > are useful > and have important niche roles to play – in remote locations and under > special > circumstances. But they can make only a marginal contribution to the energy > needs of > a growing industrial civilization. > > Let me give an example. To replace just one nuclear reactor, such as the > new > EPR > reactor which France is now building in Normandy, with the most modern wind > turbines (twice as high as Notre-Dame, the Cathedral of Paris), they would > have to be > lined up all the way from Genoa in Italy to Barcelona in Spain (about 700 > kilometers/400miles). And, even so, they generate electricity only when the > wind > blows (their average yield is about 25% of their rated capacity). > > There is much talk about biofuels, ethanol from sugar cane, for example. > The > entire > arable surface of the Earth could not produce enough biofuel to replace > present oil > consumption." > > Rgds, Partha > .................................. > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Anivar Aravind >wrote: > > > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: S. P. Udayakumar > > > > > > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > > October 2, 2008 > > 42/27 Esankai Mani Veethy > > Parakkai Road Junction > > Nagercoil 629 002 > > Tamil Nadu > > > > > > > > > > > > To > > > > The National Executive Members > > Communist Party of India > > Ajoy Bhavan > > 15, Kotla Marg > > New Delhi 110 002 > > > > The Central Committee Members > > Communist Party of India (Marxist) A.K. Gopalan Bhawan 27-29, Bhai Vir > > Singh Marg New Delhi 110 001 > > > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > All India Forward Bloc > > 28, Gurudwara Rakab Ganj Road > > New Delhi 110 001 > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > Revolutionary Socialist Party > > 17, Firoz Shah Road > > New Delhi 110 001 > > > > The Central Committee Members > > Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Liberation > > U-90, Shakarpur > > Delhi 110 092 > > > > Dear Comrades: > > > > > > We, the members of the People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy, would > > like to congratulate the Leftist parties and leaders in India on your > > principled opposition to American imperialism that seeks to dominate > > our national life. We would also like to thank you for problematizing > > the India-US nuclear deal and popularizing the issue across the > > country among all sections of our society. The Leftist parties and > > leaders are the only hope of India to create awareness on > > people-friendly development paradigm; alternative energy generation; > > elimination of war and weapons of mass destruction; and transparency, > > accountability and popular participation in our national affairs. > > > > It is our humble submission that only the Leftist parties and leaders > > can shift the course of our national economy, politics and history in > > India and pave a new way for our collective salvation and freedom. > > After all, human society is based on "production of products" and > > "production of life." Humans act on Nature with the help of > > instruments to get products. Such a production of products must be > > based on needs; but now it is all done with greed damaging the Nature > > irreparably. Should humanity continue on the Earth, Nature should be > > protected! For the "production of life," Nature should be pristine so > > that future generations could thrive on our planet. > > > > However, the contemporary world operates with a wrong understanding of > > "development" that has its focus on indiscriminate industrialization, > > liberalization, privatization, globalization, monetization [and > > Americanization] with complete disregard for Nature, future, the > > interests of the labor, the safety and well-being of unborn > > generations, and other such externalities. > > > > India's ruling class says that if India has to achieve and sustain the > > desired growth level of 9-10 percent, the country has to have energy > > security, or as some nationalist leaders put it, energy independence. > > In India, electricity has always been considered to be a development > > input but now it has come to be regarded as a tradable commodity. Of > > the 593,732 villages in India (1991 census) 474,982 have been > > electrified with the remarkable 80 percent electrification. But if we > > look at the electrification of rural households, we see a different > > picture. There are some 138.3 million rural households (2001 census) > > in India but only 60.2 million of them have access to electricity and > > the electrification percentage is only 44 percent. So it is not that > > electricity is not available in their villages for these rural > > households but they simply cannot afford it. It is poverty that > > prevents them from accessing electricity. > > > > Although India has more or less sufficient quantity of electricity > > today, a considerable portion of our electricity is said to be wasted > > because of technical and commercial factors. Some 40% of electricity > > is lost in transmission because of energy dissipation in conductors > > and equipment used for Transmission and Distribution (T&D). Pilferage, > > defective meters, error in meter reading, error in estimating > > unmetered supply are other reasons for this huge wastage of > > electricity. So the challenges India faces today include reducing and > > eliminating T&D loss, improving the quality of supply and delivery > > systems, providing electricity for all at affordable price, and > > improving the economic lot of all the people across the country. > > > > Ignoring all these socioeconomic-political intricacies and > > complexities, India's ruling class seeks a scientific-technical > > solution for the energy issue and keeps chanting the nuclear mantra. > > They completely overlook the facts that there have been no new nuclear > > power stations built in the United States for the past 35 years and in > > Russia for almost 22 years, and that many European countries are > > phasing out their nuclear power program. There is hardly any debate > > about the enormous amount of dangerous nuclear waste we will > > accumulate from the nuclear power plants, the need to safeguard this > > "hazmat treasure" for 48,000 years, huge amounts of heavy metals > > discharged by light and heavy water reactors, radiation blues, shoving > > around fissile material, nuclear weapons proliferation, and Armageddon > > on the Earth. > > > > In fact, American, Russian and French capitalists try to dump their > > nuclear technology on India for their own survival and profit. Global > > capitalism turns any calamity to its advantage, and it puts forward > > nuclear power as the answer for climate change. If we look closely, > > mining and processing of uranium, building nuclear power stations with > > so much cement and steel, the long construction process, the > > decommissioning of the plants, and handling the radioactive waste - > > all cause considerable climate-changing pollution. > > > > Just as nuclear power is not an answer for climate change, it is not a > > panacea for our energy needs. As the People's Democracy and many of > > the Leftist leaders have pointed out, the contribution of nuclear > > power to the national grid has been so small and will continue to be > > so even after the India-US nuclear deal comes into effect. Nuclear > > power is also more expensive than any other mode of electricity > > generation. > > > > Global capitalism promotes nuclear power as the single solution for > > all the world's energy woes and its economic development. In India, so > > much money has already been wasted on nuclear power projects that are > > expensive, inefficient and troublesome. Since the current cash crunch > > is mainly due to nuclear power being very expensive and capital > > intensive, Indian nuclear establishment has expressed interest in > > inviting private investments and amending nuclear laws to facilitate > > privatization. What all this means is that while private companies > > make money with no responsibilities whatsoever, Indian taxpayers and > > the "ordinary citizens" will bear the cost of dealing with all the > > liabilities such as nuclear waste, possible accidents, public health > > issues and other dangerous consequences. > > > > The international and Indian capitalists will thrive at the cost of > > India's poor. National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganized > > Sector reveals that 320 million Indian workers live on less than 20 > > rupees a day. The National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) has recorded > > 1,66,304 farmers' suicides in a decade since 1997. There were 17,060 > > farmers' suicides in 2006 alone across India. All these mean that > > there has been one farmer's suicide every 30 minutes since 2002 (The > > Hindu, January 31, 2008). When our people lack basic food security, > > water security, sanitation security, job security, and human security, > > energy security is bandied about to promote the interests of the rich > > and powerful. > > > > Nobody except the Leftists dares to challenge any nuclear activity in > > the country. In fact, the present > > pro-military-industrial-academic-complex-thinking considers uranium > > mining, nuclear power plants, nuclear weaponization, nuclear deals > > with Americans, Russians and the French, and strategic partnerships > > with them as integral parts of being a patriotic Indian. Nuclearism > > has been part and parcel of the Northern capitalist development > > paradigm and the UPA government is underscoring this aspect to gain an > > upper hand in the national political game. An unequivocal > > problematization of this mainstream understanding of "development" has > > become the need of the hour. > > > > A highly populated country like India does have an increasing need for > > energy. But that energy has to be economical, sustainable and > > environment-friendly for the same reason of having over- and dense- > > population. The country needs to spend less on energy because there > > are other pressing needs such as health, education, housing, > > transportation and so forth. India cannot afford the "use and > > discord" strategy as in nuclear power projects for obvious reasons of > > limited land availability, reliance on the sea and sea food, future > > generation's interests and so forth. Its energy projects have to be > > environmentally-friendly because even a small incident can harm, hurt > > or kill a huge number of people. > > > > Nuclear power is beset with threats and dangers that can encompass > > the most improbable meteorite fall to the commonplace terrorist > > attack. For instance, The Hindu newspaper (September 6, 2006) reported > > that a meteorite fell at Kanvarpura village near Rawatbhata, where > > Rajasthan Atomic Power Plant is situated, on August 29, 2006. The > > [Geological Survey of India Deputy Director-General (western region) > > R. S. Goyal] said the meteorite could have caused devastation on an > > 'unimaginable scale' if it had fallen on the Rawatbhata Atomic Power > > Plant. Presiding over a crucial day-long meeting of the Chief > > Ministers on Internal Security, the Indian Prime Minister said > > terrorist outfits planned possible terrorist attacks on vital > > installations including nuclear establishments (The Hindu, September > > 6, 2006). In fact, two armed men were reportedly seen moving in the > > inner fencing area around the Kakrapar nuclear power plant in Gujarat > > (The Hindu, August 23, 2006). The plant was declared safe later > > without much elaboration. > > > > Most importantly, nuclearism is a global political ideology that > > cannot stomach any transparency, accountability or popular > > participation. It snubs dissent, denounces opponents and creates a > > political climate of fear and retribution. With the India-US nuclear > > deal, and the deals with Russia and France and the private > > participation in nuclear energy generation, the situation is going to > > get out of hand. The combination of profiteering companies, secretive > > state apparatus and repressive nuclear department will be ruthless and > > this nexus of capitalism, statism, nuclearism and communalism does not > > augur well for the country. These forces gaining an upper hand in our > > national polity will mean a death knell for the country's democracy, > > openness, futures and sustainable development. > > > > When the beginning of the 21st century provides India a historic > > opportunity to be a world-leader by building on our traditional > > strengths such as sustainable development and appropriate technology, > > our elites are forcing us to be American stooges with war-based values > > and wasteful lifestyle. > > > > The way out of this capitalistic and imperialistic quandary is to be > > progressive and being progressive does not necessarily mean going back > > to the days of pastoral simplicity. We need to strive for Green > > alternatives for our modern needs. The Leftists with Green values > > would be a boon for the country at this hour of crisis. > > > > We would like to present you with a concrete example. We are sure you > > have heard about the Koodankulam nuclear power plant that is being > > constructed in the Koodankulam village on the Gulf of Mannar in > > Tirunelveli district of Tamil Nadu. The Government of India is > > constructing two 1000 MW light water VVER nuclear power plants with > > Russian technology and loans. They have not released any Environmental > > Impact Assessment (EIA) report, or the safety analysis report or the > > site evaluation study for the first two plants they are constructing. > > Nor have they conducted any public hearing to hear what the people of > > southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala have to say about the construction of > > these two nuclear power plants. We in southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala > > are very concerned about this undemocratic and anti-people > > multimillion dollar project that is thrust down our throats in the > > name of "development" and "energy security." > > > > Neither the Government of India nor the Department of Atomic Energy > > (DAE) has shared any information about the Koodankulam plants or > > anything about the overall nuclear energy plans with any kind of > > transparency, democratic spirit or civic responsibility. They spread > > rumors and gossips about their plans and intentions and when these > > "unconfirmed reports" circulate among the public for sometime and gain > > some negative acceptance, they confirm the hearsays. The Nuclear Power > > Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) has decided to increase the > > number of reactors at Koodankulam to eight (The Hindu, September 25, > > 2006). The National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC) also has proposed > > to establish nuclear power plants in or near Koodankulam with the > > generating capacity of 2000 MW power (The Hindu, September 6, 2006). > > So, as a recent newspaper report confirms (The Hindu, September 11, > > 2008) Koodankulam will be the largest mega nuclear complex with almost > > 10,000 MW generation capacity. > > > > Some of the RTI enquiries to the district collectors of a few southern > > Tamil Nadu and southern Kerala districts reveal how woefully > > inadequate they are about the nuclear safety arrangements and > > emergency preparedness. The India-Russia agreement on Koodankulam > > stipulated first that Russia would take the nuclear waste but now it > > has been decided that the waste will remain in India. There is hardly > > any discussion or consciousness among the political or bureaucratic > > circles about the nuclear waste issues, decommissioning questions, > > radiation hazards, future impact on our seas, fish and so forth. > > Nuclear waste management is going to be a major headache for our > > people. That is why D. D. Kosambi branded nuclear power as a "menace > > that even the unborn generations have to deal with." He further said, > > "only opportunists and third rate scientists spend their time and > > energies on nuclear power." > > > > Our people in the southern districts of Tamil Nadu and Kerala are > > taking a clear and bold stand that these nuclear power plants are not > > in the best interests of us and these projects should be stopped for > > ever. The Koodankulam mega nuclear complex will have disastrous > > consequences for all of us, the Tamils, the Malayalees, and even the > > Sinhalese and the Maldivians in the neighboring countries. > > > > Friends in Kerala have had such a fine record of fighting for the > > Silent Valley, against the soft-drink companies' stealing their water > > resources etc. They took such a courageous stand in not having any > > nuclear power plants in Kerala because of the over and > > dense-population in the state. But the Government of India has pushed > > the plant just a little outside their state boundary and set up the > > plant right across their front door. > > > > When 10 nuclear power plants release the coolant effluents into the > > sea on daily basis for the next four to five decades, one can think of > > the impact and repercussions that will have on all our air, our land, > > our water, our sea, our fish, our cattle, our children, our fathers > > and mothers, our health, and our future. The vested interests are > > trying to set our common home on fire in the name of energy security > > and national security. How about our human security? Our food > > security? Our air security? The security of our children who speak and > > sing in Tamil, Malayalam, Sinhalese and Divehi? Their songs and dances > > and their dreamy futures? > > > > This corner may be the "End of India" for the rest of India! But for > > us, this has been the beginning of India, the beginning of life, the > > beginning of everything! This place, this little corner of hills and > > high seas, rivers and forests, and ponds and paddy fields, is full of > > beginnings for us. This is where our life began, our history began, > > our culture began, our speech, our memories, our meanings, our dreams > > and desires – all began. But what will come off this beautiful place? > > > > Almost all our political parties, politicians, bureaucrats, religious > > leaders, and many NGOs have turned a blind eye to the nuclear issue. > > When people ask some uncomfortable questions about the nuclear > > project, we are often branded as unpatriotic, anti-national, and even > > CIA agents. It is quite ironic that the Indian elites call the people > > who oppose the nuclear program CIA agents when they themselves are > > selling the country to the Americans. > > > > Only the Leftists can and may tell us that we, the working class of > > India and the neighboring countries, are all human beings, that we all > > have a common home, the south of South Asia, that the sea is part and > > parcel of our home, and that fish is the most important food for us > > all. In short, the people of the south of South Asia share the same > > destiny of nuclear agony and only the Leftists can see this at the > > larger international picture and offer us a way out. Some Leftists > > tend to think that it is only the United States we should oppose and > > not nuclear energy per se or nuclear cooperation with Russia or > > France. Russia, like America, is also a capitalistic country and is > > interested in selling their nuclear technology to India in order to > > make some quick bucks. > > > > It is high time the Left all over India took an unambiguous stand > > against expensive, inefficient, dangerous waste-producing, > > weapons-proliferating, Nature-harming, future-hurting, > > children-killing, colonizing and enslaving nuclear energy without > > riders and exceptions and ifs and buts! Nuclearism is no more an > > energy issue or a scientific matter but a life-threatening political > > issue. The Left parties and leaders can and must make a difference in > > the nuclear issue just as you have done in the ongoing global > > financial crisis. Hoping that you would take this appeal seriously and > > lead us to better futures, we send you our best personal regards and > > all peaceful wishes. > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > S. P. Udayakumar, George Gomez, C. Boaz > > Coordinators > > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > > Ph: 04652-240657; 9865683735 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Tue Oct 7 19:31:38 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:01:38 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] New face of terror: Educated and professionals Message-ID: <169ff67c0810070701p754a35ffq9472b109eb167ef@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, To continue the thread of postings and forwards on Jamia and other ghastly incidents, here's one more. It seems that now, even these 'educated' Muslims of India, cannot keep their hands of from juvenile adventurism! But the question we need to ask is, what kind of mesage does one wants to convey when one writes 'New face of terror'? Isn't this communal profiling of the most insidiuos sort? This report had a photograph of Mumbai police commissioner Hasan Gafoor, and I thought who fitted more to the headline? please see http://www.indianexpress.com/news/new-face-of-terror-educated-and-professionals/370409/ I propose that all educated, professional Muslims of India, particularly those who live in metros like Delhi or Mumbai, must not let go of this once in a life time opportunity to avail themselves of this brand. The sikhs had this opportunity but they sadly missed it, so did the tamils, the naxals, the manipuris. Here are some prelinimary suggestions, first and foremest, push an application to patent this brand, 'Terrorist'. Then a logical step must be taken to franchise it. The organization must be strictly not-for-prophet (ooops! profit) ofcourse! Introducing brand TERRORIST sign: T attributes: educated, muslim rewards to be associated with this brand: immediate visiblity, TV interviews, documentaries on life, mobility, social accpetance psychological attributes: loyalty, committed, devoted, unflinching, can take challenges, flexibility in work. 'T' Franchise: Terrorist cafes, Terrorist Bars, Terrorist Pubs, Terrorist T-shirts, Terrorist condoms, Terrorist cups, Terrorist glasses, Terrorist bindis, Terrorist saries and Terrorist bangles, Terrorist bras and panties. There must be a Terrorist drink too. For children, it must milk with Nutmeg or Jaiphal to induce immediate hallucination for adults it must be one shot of Chardonny with one shot of Vodka and two shots of beer with egg yolk, to be taken in one gulp! The Terrorist Anthem must go like: Mazhab nahi sikata aapas main bair rakhna Terrorist hain hum Watan Hai hindu-sthaan hamara hamara Saare Jahan se accha... The Terrorist prayer must go like: Lab pe aati hai dua ban ke tammanna mere ho mere kam zaifoon ki, dardmando ki khidtmat karna Ilm ki shamma se ho mujhko muhabbat ya rab Mere allah burai se bachana mujhko TERRORIST ki joh rah hai us reh pe chala mujhko There must be a Terrorist Academy also to train Dj's, Nurses, Waiters, Graphic artists etc basically to supply labour to a burgeonning market created by this brand. The prime consumer would be ofcourse GOI. I don't think SRK will have any problem endorsing it. The ad will go like- First sequence- SRK is a middle class boy is sitting in front of a computer. Searching for work. You know pushing emplyment applications. In the background one can see trophys lined up on the wall. The search goes on. The computer screen blinks -sorry no vacancy-. Second sequence- SRK is sitting dejected on the sea front in Bombay with his girl friend. Conversation ensues- SRK: No jobs. They don't want me. (Looks dejected. Head bows down. Soft breeze is hitting his face, throwing his hair to the wind) Girlfirend: Don't worry (Places her hand on his shoulder. Looks far into the ocean) SRK: What will happen? When will I find my job? When will I marry you. (SRK is almost in tears now) Girlfriend: Wait a minute! In the Job application what do you write? SRK: What do you mean? What do I write. Girlfirend: (has got a glint in her eyes) No no it is important. VERY IMPORTANT. Do you mention that you are a muslim. SRK: No ofcourse not. I am educated. What has my religion got to do with this? Girlfirend: Arre ghantu! You are an eductated Muslim. Don't you see you are a TERROIST. You are not like those Ram sunders or Vinod sharma's. SRK: Amina, I love you! You are my darling. (hugs her) Next shot: SRK: (Sitting in front of computer filing a job application. Typing his religion also) Muslim. Terrorist. Compter screen: Congratulations! You got a Job. SRK: (PUNCH LINE) SRK is wearing a white lenin shirt with blue jean. He is facing the camera and an office acts as a backdrop. If you are educated and a muslim. you are not an educated muslim. (SRK smiles) You are a Terrorist! (SRK smiles) DONT EVER FORGET THAT. (Close up shot of SRK's Mouth when he says this line) Regards Nazo From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Oct 7 19:35:58 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:35:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Censor in the Mirror by Ha Jin Message-ID: Dear All, This list has often discussed censorship in the past. Here is a recent essay by a well known exiled Chinese poet and writer, Ha JIn that I enjoyed reading, about censorship in contemporary China. Note how 'piracy' comes to the rescue of the censored writer. I hope you all find this of interest. Incidentally, Ha Jin did not return to China after the Tienanmen Square Massacre in 1989. regards Shuddha ------------------------- The Censor in the Mirror By Ha Jin Censorship in China is a powerful field of force; it affects anyone who gets close to it. Four years ago, I signed five book contracts with a Shanghai publisher who planned to bring out four volumes of my fiction and a collection of my poems. The editor in charge of the project told me that he couldn’t possibly consider publishing two of my novels, The Crazed and War Trash, owing to the sensitive subject matter. The former touches on the Tiananmen tragedy, and the latter deals with the Korean War. I was supposed to select the poems and translate them into Chinese for the volume of poetry. As I began thinking about what poems to include, I couldn’t help but censor myself, knowing intuitively which ones might not get through the censorship. It was disheartening to realize I would have to exclude the stronger poems if the volume could ever see print in China. As a result, I couldn’t embark on the translation wholeheartedly. To date, I haven’t translated a single poem, though the deadline was May 2005. The publisher publicly announced time and again that these five books would come out soon, sometime in late 2005, according to the contracts. But that spring, the first in the series, my collection of short stories, Under the Red Flag, was sent to the Shanghai censorship office—the Bureau of Press and Publications—and the book was shot down. So the whole project was stonewalled. A year later, I heard that the publisher had decided to abandon the project. In the meantime, numerous official newspapers spread the word that my books had no market value in China. The office that Chinese writers, artists, and journalists dread and hate most is the Chinese Communist Party’s Propaganda Department. In addition to its propaganda work within the party, this department, through its numerous bureaus, also supervises the country’s newspapers, publishing houses, radio and TV stations, movie industry, and the Internet. Except for the Military Commission, no department in the Party Central Committee wields more power than this office, which forms the core of the party’s leadership. Its absolute authority had gone unchallenged in the past, though even the Communists themselves understand the sinister role it has played. Luo Ruiqing, who was the first to head the Propaganda Department after the Communists came to power, once admitted: “To let the media serve politics means to tell lies, to deceive the above and delude the below, to defile public opinions, and to create nonsensical news.” In recent years, however, the authority of the Propaganda Department has been challenged from time to time. To many Chinese, one of the brave figures in this regard is Jiao Guobiao, formerly a professor of journalism at Peking University, who in March 2004 posted on the Internet a long article titled “Fight Against the Party’s Propaganda Department.” Jiao condemns the office and its entire system as “the main blockage in the development of Chinese civilization,” and as “the protector of the evil and the corrupt.” He lists 14 illnesses the department has suffered, among which are its betrayal of the original communist ideal and its perpetuation of a Cold War mentality (to wit, stoking hostility toward the United States). He suggests that the department be dissolved, since no civilized country in the world has such an office. Jiao was not “disciplined” immediately, but later when he was on a short visit to the United States, Peking University claimed that he had “voluntarily quit” his teaching position. Another challenger of the authority of the Propaganda Department is the writer Zhang Yihe. In early 2007, Wu Shulin, a senior official from the department, declared at a meeting that eight books published in 2006 must be banned. Most of the books are nonfiction and unveil some seedy sides of contemporary Chinese history. Among the banned titles was Zhang’s book Past Stories of Peking Opera Stars, which describes the vicissitudes of eight master opera singers, especially their sufferings and ruination after 1949, when the Communists seized China. When Wu Shulin issued the ban, he gave no explanation beyond “because the book was written by that person.” Zhang’s previous two books had also been banned. But she couldn’t stomach it this time and wrote a public letter demanding an apology from Wu Shulin and calling on the Propaganda Department to rescind the ban. In an interview, she said she would defend her book with her life. Zhang’s action caused a stir and was supported by the public. She tried to file a lawsuit against the Propaganda Department for violating her citizen’s rights of publication and free speech. Of course, no court dared to accept such a case. However, the public uproar deterred Wu Shulin, who kept a low profile and was apologetic in private, saying he had just followed instructions from above. Nevertheless, the ban has remained in place, and Zhang’s book is no longer available on the mainland. To some extent, the outcome of the two incidents represents the current situation in China—the authorities no longer try to justify actions that obviously have no legal grounds, but their decisions remain unchanged. Why didn’t the party have the two disobedient individuals punished, just as it had punished tens of thousands of intellectuals, by banishment or imprisonment? Why didn’t they just silence the two troublemakers? There are three main reasons. First, the Communist Party, despite its powerful appearance, has become quite fragile, weak within. No party members believe in the ideal of communism anymore. Mainlanders say that those who join the party do so as a way “to solve the association problem.” On the one hand, party membership is viewed as a burdensome thing; on the other, it is necessary if one wants to have a good career and benefit from the system. In other words, the party can no longer derive any justification from the firm belief in its ideology, so challenges such as those made by Jiao and Zhang can put officials on the defensive. Second, both Jiao and Zhang belong to the so-called elite class, which the authorities have avoided exasperating. After Tiananmen, the Communist Party adopted a relatively conciliatory position toward intellectuals, who can be vocal, resourceful, and troublesome. On the whole, the party has succeeded in buying off the intellectuals, who live much better than the people in the lower social strata. By not punishing Jiao and Zhang harshly, the party could avoid incensing the elite class. As long as China’s brains do not join forces with the rebellious masses, the country will be easier to control. Third, Jiao and Zhang were well connected within the country and with the outside world, and they occupied a conspicuous spot in the public eye. In Jiao’s case, if his article had not been posted on the Internet, he couldn’t possibly have become a public figure overnight, and the officials could have silenced him summarily. Likewise, the Internet has protected some dissident intellectuals living in China, such as Liu Xiaobo and Yu Jie, and it has kept their voices heard by people inside and outside the country. If an ordinary citizen at the bottom of society, one of the “weed people,” posts a protest letter on a wall, we may never hear an echo of the writer’s voice, let alone know about his or her fate. Most Chinese are still not listened to, and the authorities often respond to the demands of peasants and factory workers with brute force. In the West, contemporary Chinese movies are quite popular, but not many of us know that the movies we can see are not always available to the Chinese. The list of banned movies is long: To Live, The Blue Kite, Farewell to My Concubine, Bitter Love, Devils on the Doorstep. Even Ang Lee’s Brokeback Mountain is classified as unsuitable for the general audience in China. His new film, Lust, Caution, has been criticized by some officials, but thanks to Ang Lee’s international reputation, few of them have condemned him publicly. Instead, Tang Wei, the leading actress in the movie, has been prohibited from making public appearances and from joining the casts of new movies. For filmmakers, a banned movie means a huge business loss and more difficulties in finding sponsorship for their next project. It would be suicidal to make two banned movies in a row, so filmmakers have to toe the line. This is the main reason most Chinese movies lack depth and complexity—they’re hamstrung at the outset by directors and producers having to worry about whether the final product will pass the censors. In the fall of 2006, Lou Ye, a young filmmaker, took his movie Summer Palace to the Cannes Film Festival despite the authorities’ objection on the grounds that it contained scenes of Tiananmen. On his return to China, Lou was suspended from work, forbidden to make movies for five years. In fact, several directors had been subject to the same five-year suspension before Lou. This summer, after the turmoil in Tibet and the earthquake in Sichuan in the spring and as the Olympics began, the Chinese government was determined to smother or muffle discordant voices. Party cadres follow the principle expressed by their pet phrase “nei jin wai song” (tense within but relaxed without). Their mild façade is a show for foreigners. The authorities are more subtle in controlling book publishing. Under the Propaganda Department, there is an office called the General Administration of Press and Publication (GAPP). It is this office whose approval every publisher, both Chinese and foreign, must obtain before it can publish a book or magazine in China. In officialese, its task is to “responsibly guard the territory” and “guarantee the safety of the publishing business.” gapp has a bureau in every province and every major city directly under the Central Government. All the publishing houses get book numbers, ISBNs, from gapp and must submit manuscripts for inspection. The officials at GAPP read manuscripts and order what must be cut before a book goes to the printer. Sometimes they demand cuts not because a book’s content is offensive but just because they have to cut something so that they won’t be held responsible if the book runs into trouble after its publication. To forestall trouble, gapp maintains a list of banned subjects, so that all publishers can understand the restrictions and exercise “self-discipline.” Taking their cue from rejected manuscripts, writers subject themselves to self-censorship. I know some Chinese writers living in North America whose book manuscripts were turned down again and again by publishers in China because the subject matter was “inappropriate.” The taboo subjects are numerous, such as the Tiananmen massacre, Tibet, the independence of Taiwan, the Anti-Rightist Campaign, the Cultural Revolution, the Korean War, Chairman Mao, Falun Gong, the famine in the early 1960s. One of the best-known works of fiction banned by the authorities is the novella Serve the People! published in 2005, by Yan Lianke, who was an officer in the People’s Army. It was censored partly because two lovers in the story accidentally smash a plaster statue of Mao Zedong, shred some Mao portraits, and tear up a volume of Mao’s selected writings. The authorities criticized the novella as “vilifying Chairman Mao, the People’s Liberation Army, and the revolution through excessive sexual descriptions,” so “it confuses people’s minds and disseminates Western ideas.” In fact, even before the author submitted his novella to the magazine Flower City, he had self-censored the work, cutting more than 40,000 of the original 90,000 words. Then, his editor at the magazine struck out another 10,000 words. Yan Lianke later lamented, “It doesn’t feel like a piece of work anymore.” Still, as soon as the novella came out, the Propaganda Department ordered the magazine to retrieve all 30,000 copies of the issue. That was impossible; it had already reached readers. As a result, the editors—reprimanded and investigated—had to perform self-criticism, examining their negligence and explaining the whole process of the publication to gapp. Yan was lucky because he had just left the army, which couldn’t punish him anymore. Actually, editors tend to be punished more severely than authors, some of whom are public figures. But nowadays, even editors don’t get disciplined as often as they used to. If the Propaganda Department decides to ban a book, it simply orders the publisher to stop shipping it and to destroy its printing plates. This robs the publisher of the capital already invested in the book, and the economic loss alone is enough to deter most publishers from bringing out an “offensive” book again. Self-censorship is a necessity for most Chinese writers. There’s the saying, “If you eat others’ food, you cannot talk back to them,” which describes the writers’ existential condition. Many of them belong to the Writers’ Union, the official literary association that has a branch in every province and every major city. Some draw a salary directly from the union, while the majority hold jobs in state- owned cultural, educational, and legal institutions. That means most of them depend on the state for their livelihood. About the intellectuals, Mao Zedong often remarked, “If they don’t listen to us, we won’t give them food.” This kind of dependence on the state for one’s physical existence has handicapped Chinese writers and artists and intensified their self-censorship. Worse, China’s literary apparatus automatically excludes and isolates writers who are determined to exist outside it. Every now and then, some young writers raise a war cry against the Writers’ Union, but the truth is that most writers, old and young, are eager to join it. Besides the state-owned publishing houses, some small, privately operated businesses have emerged in recent years. These are called the “second channel.” Some also pirate books by domestic and foreign authors. To bring out a book legally, a second channel publisher must get an ISBN, but GAPP makes that very difficult. So, sometimes, private publishers buy leftover ISBNs from state-owned publishers. At the moment, the second channel seems to be withering, and it has always been at a disadvantage. Its publishers are also intimidated by the authorities, and few dare to bring out politically sensitive books. In the summer of 2004, Yuan Hongbing, a Chinese writer, defected to Australia, taking with him four fiction manuscripts. After Yuan’s novels were published abroad, some top Chinese leaders were flustered. Luo Gan, director of the Politics and Law Committee of the Chinese Communist Party at the time, went so far as to give orders to punish with a death sentence whoever dared to pirate the books. Li Changchun, a member of the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau, who is in charge of ideology, issued the following directive: “The General Administration of Press and Publications, the Border Police, and Customs must work closely to prevent Yuan Hongbing’s novels from being smuggled into the mainland. We must ponder about this phenomenon: For many years our party has spent a great amount of manpower, money, and material resources in bringing up many writers, but our writers have not created any work that can trump Yuan Hongbing’s fiction artistically.” Regardless of whether Li was capable of literary judgment, he did raise a serious question for the party. The answer is clear and simple: The system of harsh censorship has crippled and “sterilized” the writers and artists who exist within its field of force. Facing such crippling power, few writers can remain unaffected. I had halfheartedly signed my five book contracts with the Shanghai publisher, knowing the agreement might fall through at any time. This lack of faith, however, enabled me to see the predicament of writers and artists in China. Some have become cynical, and few are willing to run any risk and take up significant work that requires long and wholehearted devotion. Many have worked on ancient subjects, seeking a safe living in “the musty tomes of history.” That is why there are so many TV plays, movies, and books based on ancient legends and about emperors and historical figures. During his visit to the United States in 2006, President Hu Jintao said at the White House in response to a reporter’s question: “We always believe that without democracy there will be no modernization.” This admission dovetails with the dissident Wei Jingsheng’s call, in 1978, for the Fifth Modernization—democracy—as an addition to Deng Xiaoping’s Four Modernizations. For that, Wei was imprisoned for 15 years. If the Communist Party is sincere about advocating democracy as President Hu averred, it should take steps to reduce the power of its Propaganda Department and eventually disband it. This would be an effective way to guarantee the Chinese people freedom of speech, which is a key component of basic human rights and without which any talk about democracy is mere rhetoric. Rigid censorship not only chokes artistic talent but also weakens the Chinese populace, who are forced to be less imaginative and less inventive. The crisis in education has been a hot topic in China for years. Why are so many Chinese students good at taking tests but poor at analytical thinking? Why are many Chinese college graduates less creative and innovative than college graduates in the West? Besides the commercialization of education, the absence of a free, tolerant environment has stunted the intellectual growth of students and teachers. People often ask how many great original thinkers and artists modern China has contributed to the world, and how many original products China has created on its own. Very few, considering that the country has 1.3 billion people. True, China is richer than before, but its wealth relies on duplicating and emulating foreign products. Such wealth is temporary and will dwindle away. Without its own original cultural and material products, a country can never stay rich and strong. In other words, the real wealth a country has is the talent of its people. In the case of China, the way to nurture that talent is to lift the yoke of censorship. ------------------------------------------- Ha Jin, who is a professor of English at Boston University, won the National Book Award in 1999 for his novel Waiting. His most recent novel, published last year, is A Free Life. For more on Ha Jin see the Wikipedia Entry at - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha_Jin From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Tue Oct 7 19:50:20 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:20:20 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] New face of terror: Educated and professionals Message-ID: <169ff67c0810070720x332b415bo14d03bda2888b8c3@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, To continue the thread of postings and forwards on Jamia and other ghastly incidents, here's one more. It seems that now, even these 'educated' Muslims of India, cannot keep their hands of from juvenile adventurism! But the question we need to ask is, what kind of message does one wants to convey when one writes 'New face of terror'? Isn't this communal profiling of the most insidious sort? This report had a photograph of Mumbai police commissioner Hasan Gafoor, and I was thinking who fits more to the headline? please see http://www.indianexpress.com/news/new-face-of-terror-educated-and-professionals/370409/ I propose that all educated, professional Muslims of India, particularly those who live in metros like Delhi or Mumbai, must not let go of this once in a life time opportunity to avail themselves of this brand. The sikhs had this opportunity but they sadly missed it, so did the tamils, the naxals, the manipuris. Here are some preliminary suggestions, first and foremost, push an application to patent this brand, 'Terrorist'. Then a logical step must be taken to franchise it. The organization must be strictly not-for-prophet (ooops! profit) of course! Introducing brand TERRORIST sign: T attributes: educated, muslim rewards to be associated with this brand: immediate visibility, TV interviews, documentaries on life, mobility, social acceptance psychological attributes: loyalty, committed, devoted, unflinching, can take challenges, flexibility in work. 'T' Franchise: Terrorist cafes, Terrorist Bars, Terrorist Pubs, Terrorist T-shirts, Terrorist condoms, Terrorist cups, Terrorist glasses, Terrorist bindis, Terrorist saries and Terrorist bangles, Terrorist bras and panties. There must be a Terrorist drink too. For children, it must milk with Nutmeg or Jaiphal to induce immediate hallucination for adults it must be one shot of Chardonnay with one shot of Vodka and two shots of beer with egg yolk, to be taken in one gulp! The Terrorist Anthem must go like: Mazhab nahi sikata aapas main bair rakhna Terrorist hain hum Watan Hai hindu-sthaan hamara hamara Saare Jahan se accha... The Terrorist prayer must go like: Lab pe aati hai dua ban ke tammanna mere ho mere kam zaifoon ki, dardmando ki khidtmat karna Ilm ki shamma se ho mujhko muhabbat ya rab Mere allah burai se bachana mujhko TERRORIST ki joh rah hai us reh pe chala mujhko There must be a Terrorist Academy also to train Dj's, Nurses, Waiters, Graphic artists etc basically to supply labor to a burgeoning market created by this brand. The prime consumer would be of course GOI. I don't think SRK will have any problem endorsing it. The ad will go like- First sequence- SRK is a middle class boy is sitting in front of a computer. Searching for work. You know pushing employment applications. In the background one can see trophies lined up on the wall. The search goes on. The computer screen blinks -sorry no vacancy-. Second sequence- SRK is sitting dejected on the sea front in Bombay with his girl friend. Conversation ensues- SRK: No jobs. They don't want me. (Looks dejected. Head bows down. Soft breeze is hitting his face, throwing his hair to the wind) Girlfirend: Don't worry (Places her hand on his shoulder. Looks far into the ocean) SRK: What will happen? When will I find my job? When will I marry you. (SRK is almost in tears now) Girlfriend: Wait a minute! In the Job application what do you write? SRK: What do you mean? What do I write. Girlfirend: (has got a glint in her eyes) No no it is important. VERY IMPORTANT. Do you mention that you are a muslim. SRK: No of course not. I am educated. What has my religion got to do with this? Girlfirend: Arre ghantu! You are an educated Muslim. Don't you see you are a TERRORIST. You are not like those Ram sunders or Vinod sharma's. SRK: Amina, I love you! You are my darling. (hugs her) Next shot: SRK: (Sitting in front of computer filing a job application. Typing his religion also) Muslim. Terrorist. Compter screen: Congratulations! You got a Job. SRK: (PUNCH LINE) SRK is wearing a white lenin shirt with blue jean. He is facing the camera and an office acts as a backdrop. If you are educated and a muslim. you are not an educated muslim. (SRK smiles) You are a Terrorist! (SRK smiles) DON'T EVER FORGET THAT. (Close up shot of SRK's Mouth when he says this line) Regards Nazo From lawrence at altlawforum.org Tue Oct 7 20:11:58 2008 From: lawrence at altlawforum.org (Lawrence Liang) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:41:58 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] A Different kind of 419 Message-ID: *Urgent Request * *From Republic Of America For Business Relationship (Confidential!)* Dear American, My Dear Friend: I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America. I need to ask you to support an urgent secret business relationship with a transfer of funds of great magnitude. My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion dollars US. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you. I am working with "Mr. Phil Gram," lobbyist for UBS, who will be my replacement as Ministry of the Treasury in January. As a citizen, you may know him as the leader of the American banking deregulation movement in the 1990s. This transaction is 100% safe. This is a matter of great urgency. We need a blank check. We need the funds as quickly as possible. We cannot directly transfer these funds in the names of our close friends because we are constantly under surveillance. My family lawyer advised me that I should look for a reliable and trustworthy person who will act as a next of kin so the funds can be transferred. Please reply with all of your bank account, IRA and college fund account numbers and those of your children and grandchildren to wallstreetbailout at treasury.gov so that we may transfer your commission for this transaction. After I receive that information, I will respond with detailed information about safeguards that will be used to protect the funds. Do not discuss this message with anyone! Time is of the essence! Yours Faithfully. Minister of Treasury Hank Paulson From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 23:18:22 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:48:22 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself Message-ID: Father kills family and himself, despondent over financial losses By Richard Winton, Evelyn Larrubia and Kimi Yoshino Los Angeles Times October 7, 2008 http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-porterranch7-2008oct07,0,523407,full.story Karthik Rajaram was found dead in his Porter Ranch home along with his wife, mother-in-law and 3 sons. Neighbors and coworkers say he was a loving father, but 'very intense' and at times unstable. Karthik Rajaram had fallen hard. The 45-year-old Porter Ranch financial manager who once made more than $1.2 million in a London-based venture fund had lost his job. His luck playing the stock market ran out. On Sept. 16, he bought a gun. He wrote two suicide notes and a last will and testament. And then, sometime between Saturday night and Monday morning, he killed his wife, mother-in-law and three sons, and took his own life. "This is a perfect American family behind me that has absolutely been destroyed, apparently because of a man who just got stuck in a rabbit hole, if you will, of absolute despair, somehow working his way into believing this to be an acceptable exit," said LAPD Deputy Chief Michel Moore. "It is critical to step up and recognize we are in some pretty troubled times." In a letter addressed to police, Rajaram blamed his actions on economic hardships. A second letter, labeled "personal and confidential," was addressed to family friends; the third contained a last will and testament, Moore said. The letter to police voiced two options: taking his own life, or killing himself and his entire family. "He talked himself into the second strategy," Moore said. "That that would be the honorable thing to do." Authorities believe Rajaram killed his family and himself after seeing his finances wiped out by the stock market collapse, according to a source familiar with the case, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. Concern about the family's welfare began Monday morning when Rajaram's wife, 39-year-old Subasri, did not show up for her carpool. Friends went to the house in the 20600 block of Como Lane, only to find it strangely quiet. The morning newspaper lay in the frontyard. The family's two cars, a Suburban and a Lexus SUV, were parked in the driveway. When police entered the home in the gated, Spanish-style community, they first found the gunman's mother-in-law, Indra Ramasesham, 69, dead in a downstairs bedroom. His wife and three sons -- Krishna, 19, a sophomore at UCLA majoring in business economics; Ganesha, 12; and Arjuna, 7, all named after Indian gods and warriors -- were discovered in various upstairs bedrooms, all shot in the head, some with multiple gunshot wounds. Their father was found dead in a bedroom with Ganesha and Arjuna, the gun still in his hand, police said. The Rajarams had lived in the upscale Sorrento neighborhood of Porter Ranch for a couple years in a 2,800-square-foot rented house. The landlords, another Indian couple, said that the family paid their rent on time and that there were no indications of trouble. Neighbors in the Northridge neighborhood where the family previously lived said they were well-liked and enjoyed entertaining guests. Except for one night when residents heard a man screaming for hours, the family seemed content for the nine years they lived there. "He loved those kids more than any man I've seen love his sons," said next-door neighbor Sue Karns. But Karthik Rajaram, who held an MBA from UCLA, was a hard-driving businessman. He was involved in several financial ventures. Between his home sale and another lucrative investment, he should have had a pile of cash. A 2001 article in The Daily Telegraph of London, under the headline "Bust, but big bucks for the big boys," called Rajaram a "winner" in a deal for NanoUniverse, a Los Angeles- and London-based venture fund taken public on the London Stock Exchange. For a 12,500-pound investment, Rajaram, one of the company's founders, received 875,000 pounds -- or about $1.2 million in 2001 dollars -- after a voluntary liquidation, the newspaper reported. He also sold his house in 2006, a calculated decision even though his wife, a bookkeeper at a pharmacy, did not want to move, their former neighbors said. He sold the house for $750,000, making a sizable profit on a home the couple purchased in 1997 for $274,000. "The market was going down and he wanted to get out before the bottom dropped out," Karns said. "I talked to him last December and he said, 'I feel I did a good thing by selling when I did.' " It is unclear how Rajaram invested the cash since then and how he lost it. In 2003 and 2004, he worked for Greg Robinson, an entrepreneur and founder of several companies, at Azur Partners LLC, a management consulting agency. Robinson said he was forced to fire Rajaram because "his life wasn't moving in the right direction." "He had some behavioral problems," Robinson said. "He wasn't reliable. . . . He was not an emotionally stable person. It was a real problem and would affect any business he was involved in." The two had also worked together in the Century City office of PriceWaterhouseCoopers and Robinson recalled Rajaram as being "a very smart guy," who he believed posted a perfect score on his business school entrance exam. Although Karns and her husband said they liked Karthik Rajaram and were stunned by the news, they said he was "very high-strung, very intense." "The man was never relaxed," Sue Karns said. In the Porter Ranch neighborhood, next-door neighbor Kinda Almukaddem said she had rarely spoken to the family since they moved in a couple of years ago. But in the last two weeks, Karthik Rajaram visited her twice asking whether she would be home this past weekend. He urged her to keep her side windows shut because he had heard of burglaries in the area. Rajaram seemed nervous -- shaking, pacing and taking notes on a notepad as he spoke to her, she said. "He noticed my side windows were open, the side that my house shares with him," she said. "Now, come to think of it, I think he was trying to have me close my windows on that side so I wouldn't hear anything." Police said nobody reported hearing gunshots or anything out of the ordinary. But on Monday, the neighborhood was far from normal, with police leading convoys of media into the gated community. Children at nearby Alfred B. Nobel Middle School, where 12-year-old Ganesha Rajaram was a seventh-grade honors student, were sent home with notes informing their parents of the news. "This one will shake people to the core," Principal Robert Coburn said. "When you think about it, all kids have a mom and dad. And if a father can do this to his kids, it's very scary." richard.winton at latimes.com evelyn.larrubia at latimes.com From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 09:05:53 2008 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:35:53 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Army Revives National Security Council Message-ID: As the Army's two-year "democracy" experiment comes to a collapsing end, the plans for National Security Council have been revived. Those familiar with Bangladesh's internal security apparatus will know full well that a 13 member body, with heads of DGFI, NSI, Police, Ansar, BDR, Defence College, Army Chief, Air Force Chief, Navy Chief would give the country permanent military/intelligence agency rule under cover of democracy. National Security Council: October 2008 http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/08/nsc-10-08/ E-BOOK: The Case Against National Security Council http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/Bangladesh-civil-military-politics.pdf From javedmasoo at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 12:38:10 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:38:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Making A Mockery Of Jihad Message-ID: Making A Mockery Of Jihad 7 Oct 2008, 0003 hrs IST, Asghar Ali Engineer The terror attacks in India as well as abroad have created an impression that jihad is central to Quranic teaching. First of all, as we have asser ted repeatedly, jihad does not mean war in the Quran as there are other words for it like qital and harb. Jihad has been used in the Quran in its root meaning i.e. to strive and to strive for betterment of society, to spread goodness (maruf) and contain evil (munkar). But supposing jihad means war, as some Muslims believe, even then it isn't central to Quranic teachings. The word jihad occurs in the Quran 41 times though not a single verse uses it in the sense of war. There are four most fundamental values in the Quran i.e. justice ('adl), benevolence (ihsan), compassion (rahmah) and wisdom (hikmah). Thus, the Quran is an embodiment of these values and a Muslim is duty-bound to practise them above all. One who fails to practise these values can hardly claim to be a true Muslim. Jihad is not even obligatory in Islamic jurisprudence whereas these values are indicative of a Muslim's character and hence quite important. It would be seen that compassion is most central to Quranic teachings. The words "compassion" and "mercy" in their various forms occur in the Quran 335 times as against only 41 for jihad. There is great emphasis in the Quran on justice in all social and political matters and it uses three words for justice — 'adl, qist and hakama. These three words occur 244 times in the Quran. To seek revenge is human weakness, not strength. Thus, a devout Muslim tends to forgive like Allah who forgives his servants if they sincerely repent. Those who are waging jihad in the form of terror attacks are bent upon seeking revenge whereas a good Muslim would tend to forgive just as Allah does. In Shariah law, jihad can be declared only by the state or those empowered by it. Terror attacks, on the other hand, are planned and executed by a few individuals unrepresentative of any state or state institution. So their attacks cannot be legitimate by any Islamic or Shariah law. That is nothing but committing murder of innocent people. Also, according to Islamic laws, in jihad no non-combatant can be attacked, much less women, children and old persons and no civilian property can be destroyed unless it is being used for military purposes or for purposes of combat. It can be seen that the rules laid down for war by Islamic laws are no different from modern laws of warfare or the Geneva conventions. But terror attacks are a gross violation of all these Islamic rules and there is no way these attacks can be characterised as jihad. The terrorists are described by the media as jihadis. This is a gross misuse of the word as there is no word like jihadi in the Arabic language. It is in fact 'mujahid' and it is used in a laudatory sense — one who devotes oneself to a good cause like fighting against social evils. The Quran advises Muslims: "And cast not yourselves to destruction with your own hands and do good (to others). Surely Allah loves the doers of good." This advice of the Quran not to throw oneself to destruction with one's own hands is important and relevant even today. What did the 9/11 attack result in? Did al-Qaeda not invite great disaster to the entire Islamic world, especially in Afghanistan and Iraq? Did they not throw themselves into perdition with their own hands? What good did that attack do to anyone ? Was there any wisdom in that rash and ruthless attack? Revenge only satisfies our ego and injures the ego of the enemy and thus the war of attrition continues. What terrorists are doing is seeking revenge and that too from a weaker position. Every attack brings nothing but disaster for themselves and others. Various verses quoted to justify jihad are generally taken in a literal sense and ignore the value system of the Quran. It is a well-known fact that be it al-Qaeda or any other terrorist organisation, they do not represent any government or larger Muslim organisation. They succeed in mobilising some angry youth who are carried away by 'Islamic' rhetoric and commit terrorist attacks taking lives of innocent people. These attacks violate all Quranic values. Seventh century Arabia cannot be compared to conditions in the contemporary world. Today's world is radically different from that period and we should go more by Quranic ethics than injunctions about war. There are several institutions now available for arbitration, reconciliation and solving disputes. One should not rush to resort to violence. In the Indian context, one cannot avenge communal violence by terrorist attacks on innocent Hindus and Muslims in marketplaces. It is the same sin which communal forces committed against innocent Muslims. Wisdom requires that one should patiently mobilise public opinion through democratic means, win over the hearts of common people and expose communal and fascist forces. One hopes that the misguided Muslim youth resorting to violent actions will realise the futility of terror attacks and renounce such sinful and criminal acts, concentrating instead on excelling in learning and acquiring a superior moral character. Did not the Prophet say that the "ink of a scholar is superior to the blood of the martyr"? The writer is with the Centre for Study of Society and Secularism in Mumbai. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Making_A_Mockery_Of_Jihad/articleshow/3567513.cms From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 13:20:33 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:20:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=91Leave_us_to_mourn_in_peace=92?= Message-ID: <6353c690810080050nbfb611bhd3c0a52fba9f1afc@mail.gmail.com> 'Leave us to mourn in peace' Wednesday, October 8, 2008 at 5:10 am Link - http://www.apakistannews.com/leave-us-to-mourn-in-peace-84544 Slain delhi inspector M C Sharma's family is maintaining a dignified silence even after all the accussations coming from Samajwadi Party General secretary Amar Singh. The family has refused to comment on the statements being made by Mr Singh - saying that the family wants to be left in peace to mourn their loss. When approached about the issue a very upset MC Sharma's wife –Maya Sharma –said, "If anyone doubts his martyrdom, then why don't they do something for the country? If Amar Singh wants a judicial probe into the Jamia encounter, he can seek one. But I don't think anybody would leave his son at the hospital for an encounter. As hard as we are trying to forget the past, we are constantly reminded of it. Now, we will not accept the cheque Amar Singh gave us." Maya Sharma asl added , "The reason I don't want to come in front of the cameras is because my children are watching television and continuously crying. We don't need to prove to anybody why my husband did what he did. We've lost a husband, a son, a father. Please let us cope with this loss. This is clearly being done for votebank politics." The family of Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma yesterday refused to accept the Rs 10 lakh cheque in protest of the 'insensitive' remarks made by Singh over the encounter. Singh had expressed doubts over the genuineness of the encounter and went to the extent of saying the Sharma could have been killed by his colleagues. Singh had made the comments while on a visit to Jamia Nagar where he spoke to local leaders and demanded a judicial probe into the encounter. From yousufism at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 13:23:29 2008 From: yousufism at gmail.com (M Yousuf) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:23:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath Samiti doing more harm than good: Jammu residents Message-ID: <19ba050f0810080053r5d39e26aj24099b7c0977883@mail.gmail.com> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3569239.cms Amarnath Samiti doing more harm than good: Jammu residents JAMMU: Many people in Jammu have stopped rallying around the Shri Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti, saying protests organised by it have already cost them too much economically and now it is meddling in their social affairs as well. "We are a tolerant society, we were asking for restoration of land to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board and not the unwanted tags which have come partly because of the utterances of the Samiti leaders and partly by deliberate misrepresentation of facts," bemoaned Daisy Sharma, a businessman here. "My shop remained closed for more than two months, but I had to shell out fees for my children and also pay salaries to my employees, and now I am told that the agreement that the Samiti signed with the government is a watered down version of the first order of land allotment to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board," he said. In retaliation to Kashmir's boycott of Jammu traders, the Samiti has now said Kashmiri children should be refused admission to educational institutions here. People here say such utterances have only damaged the Samiti's image. The Samiti, a conglomerate of 30 social, religious, political and business organisations, spearheaded over two months the agitation against the cancellation of land allotted for pilgrims to the Amarnath shrine. This led to an economic blockade of the valley and caused a communal divide between Hindu-dominated Jammu and Muslim-dominated Kashmir. But Jammu residents say they are hurt about being dubbed as "Hindu communalists", virtually being clubbed with right wing mobs who are attacking Christians and their churches in Orissa, Karnataka and Kerala. Anil Kumar Padha, a local businessman, could not make it to marriage of his closest friend, Ashraf Malik, in Budgam in the Kashmir valley. "My family did not allow me to go there in the prevailing atmosphere of fear and suspicion between the two regions. So I had to make an excuse for not attending." A majority of Jammu residents believe the Samiti may have done more harm than good to the region. Students here could not appear in all-India entrance examinations and the economy suffered a loss of over Rs.100 billion, says local traders' body chief Rajender Motial. Worst of all, relations between the Jammu region and Kashmir valley in terms of the political, religious and social landscape have hit an all-time low. Rekha Choudhary, head of the political science department in Jammu University, said: "The losses have not only been in terms of economy. What is more worrying is the communal divide and response to separatist calls by Muslims in the Jammu region." She says there was complete loss of faith and trust between the two regions, which is "visible to a great extent between the communities". People are blaming the Samiti's tough stand during the agitation and some incidents of Kashmiri drivers being beaten up for the boycott of Jammu products by Kashmiri traders. So much so that National Conference president Omar Abdullah last week blamed the Samiti and the alleged economic blockade of the valley in the Jammu region for the rise of separatist forces in the Kashmir valley. "The economic blockade injected a new life into the Hurriyat Conference and the separatists," Abdullah declared at a rally of his party workers. "It is time the Samiti saw the writing on the wall. It is not required. It has damaged Jammu's cause and that of the whole state," National Conference's provincial president Ajay Sadhotra told the media. The Jammu Chamber of Commerce and Industry too has asked everyone not to meddle in trade relations between the Jammu region and Kashmir valley. "It would be prudent if the trade is left alone (out) of the political discourse," chamber president Ram Sahai has said in a statement. This was seen as a rebuff to the Samiti, who had warned the government of dire consequences if Jammu's products were not bought by Kashmiri traders. Ram Sahai has had to hear persistent taunts from his Kashmiri counterparts that his chamber was part of the Samiti that enforced an "economic blockade" of the valley. That was cited as the reason for Kashmiri traders saying "no trade" to Jammu businessmen. From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 15:39:42 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:39:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Information about a film Teenage turmoil by Rita bakshi Message-ID: Dear All, Im looking for a film ' Teenage Termoil ' by Rita Bakshi, I shall be obliged if you could help me get a copy, or may be the contact number of the film maker/resource. Best, Yunus -- Change is the only constant in life ! From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 17:29:32 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:29:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian Left Parties In-Reply-To: <411324.14885.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <564b2fca0810070433x143d4cc1m96f18a2bdc84f46b@mail.gmail.com> <411324.14885.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0810080459t555f866m92b3b41f3e10dcb4@mail.gmail.com> No clue, Kshmendra. On a related note, there was a small item in today's HT re uranium mining being affected by floods, of some of the ore (?) washing on to fields and there being protests as a consequence. But can't say anything more precisely until there is clearer info from the area. I am not familiar with the subject but there's a bunch of folks questioning this high tech/ large capital used in desalination and related water processes. Maude Barlow discusses thiis in the July-Aug issue of Monthly Review. Also, given increased storm surges and more intense hurricances (both of which have been happening off Orissa's coast) as a consequence of global warming, the idea of floating nuclear power stations gives me the creeps. But doubtless better informed people will have some light to shed on this. Nagraj On 07/10/2008, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > I have a question for Nagraj, Partha (or any other informed person). > > Are any of the currently functioning Nuclear Power installations in India > being used for generating CLEAN WATER (desalination or otherwise) for public > distribution? I know there have been proposals. Has any of them been put > into practice? > > For de-salination, there is also the innovative concept of Floating Nuclear > Power Plants. Floating on sea. Russia was going to build one. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Nagraj Adve wrote: > > From: Nagraj Adve > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Nuclear Power: An Open Letter to Indian > Left Parties > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 5:03 PM > > Partha, > Indian Planning Commission documents clearly state that as far as India is > concerned coal is what the govt is plumping for. This group's long > statement > makes the valid point, among others, that the risks at the low levels that > nuclear power can supply are simply not worth it given the several > extremely > dire hazards they mention at the end. > > Wind power and biofuels certainly cannot meet current energy > requirements, George Monbiot (in his book Heat) and others, though, have > given elaborate plans to do so within the European context. I don't think > though that it is possible to discuss larger energy needs without minimally > locating it within capitalism and the inherent drive for cheap production > and consumption it stimulates. Why don't we instead start with the huge > ecological crises that capitalism has created - global warming, impending > peak oil, loss of species, declining water per capita, etc. Some of these > are unprecedented and hence humanity has no prior experience of dealing > with > crises on this scale. Let us then try to arrive at what is a sane energy > consumption pattern (rather than getting stuck in a debate around wind vs. > nuclear). It is to state the obvious that such a sane energy pattern has to > have equity at its core, and is additionally not possible under capitalism. > Nagraj > > > > On 06/10/2008, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > You may want to look at the following document: > > > > www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/*BENEFITS-of-NUCLEAR*.pdf > > > > A sub-section from the document: > > > > "Conservation and renewables: > > > > There are those who tell us we only need to conserve energy and rely upon > > renewable > > energies. Solar and wind are the major renewables. > > > > I agree, of course, that conservation is highly commendable, even > > essential. > > But in the > > light of the world's growing population, widespread economic > development > > and > > enhanced life expectancy on the one hand (notably China and India which > > account for > > about 35% of the world's population) and finite fossil fuel resources > on > > the > > other, > > conservation can only delay the crisis that will arise from the penury of > > oil and gas. > > Energy efficiency and alternate sources of energy can and must be > > developed. > > Efficient light bulbs produce the same amount of light with 3 to 8 times > > less energy. > > Heat pumps can provide the same amount of heat with 2 to 5 times less > > energy. Solar > > heat and geothermal energy can and should be developed to a much greater > > extent > > than they are today. > > > > Some environmentalists are enchanted by the simplicity of solar cells and > > the pristine > > elegance of wind turbines, and they refuse to accept the fact that they > are > > quantitatively incapable of supplying the energy required by an > industrial > > civilization > > > > I do not mean to say that these renewable energies should be excluded; > they > > are useful > > and have important niche roles to play – in remote locations and under > > special > > circumstances. But they can make only a marginal contribution to the > energy > > needs of > > a growing industrial civilization. > > > > Let me give an example. To replace just one nuclear reactor, such as the > > new > > EPR > > reactor which France is now building in Normandy, with the most modern > wind > > turbines (twice as high as Notre-Dame, the Cathedral of Paris), they > would > > have to be > > lined up all the way from Genoa in Italy to Barcelona in Spain (about 700 > > kilometers/400miles). And, even so, they generate electricity only when > the > > wind > > blows (their average yield is about 25% of their rated capacity). > > > > There is much talk about biofuels, ethanol from sugar cane, for example. > > The > > entire > > arable surface of the Earth could not produce enough biofuel to replace > > present oil > > consumption." > > > > Rgds, Partha > > .................................. > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Anivar Aravind > > >wrote: > > > > > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > From: S. P. Udayakumar > > > > > > > > > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > > > October 2, 2008 > > > 42/27 Esankai Mani Veethy > > > Parakkai Road Junction > > > Nagercoil 629 002 > > > Tamil Nadu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To > > > > > > The National Executive Members > > > Communist Party of India > > > Ajoy Bhavan > > > 15, Kotla Marg > > > New Delhi 110 002 > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > > Communist Party of India (Marxist) A.K. Gopalan Bhawan 27-29, Bhai > Vir > > > Singh Marg New Delhi 110 001 > > > > > > > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > > All India Forward Bloc > > > 28, Gurudwara Rakab Ganj Road > > > New Delhi 110 001 > > > > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > > Revolutionary Socialist Party > > > 17, Firoz Shah Road > > > New Delhi 110 001 > > > > > > The Central Committee Members > > > Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Liberation > > > U-90, Shakarpur > > > Delhi 110 092 > > > > > > Dear Comrades: > > > > > > > > > We, the members of the People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy, > would > > > like to congratulate the Leftist parties and leaders in India on your > > > principled opposition to American imperialism that seeks to dominate > > > our national life. We would also like to thank you for problematizing > > > the India-US nuclear deal and popularizing the issue across the > > > country among all sections of our society. The Leftist parties and > > > leaders are the only hope of India to create awareness on > > > people-friendly development paradigm; alternative energy generation; > > > elimination of war and weapons of mass destruction; and transparency, > > > accountability and popular participation in our national affairs. > > > > > > It is our humble submission that only the Leftist parties and leaders > > > can shift the course of our national economy, politics and history in > > > India and pave a new way for our collective salvation and freedom. > > > After all, human society is based on "production of > products" and > > > "production of life." Humans act on Nature with the help of > > > instruments to get products. Such a production of products must be > > > based on needs; but now it is all done with greed damaging the Nature > > > irreparably. Should humanity continue on the Earth, Nature should be > > > protected! For the "production of life," Nature should be > pristine so > > > that future generations could thrive on our planet. > > > > > > However, the contemporary world operates with a wrong understanding > of > > > "development" that has its focus on indiscriminate > industrialization, > > > liberalization, privatization, globalization, monetization [and > > > Americanization] with complete disregard for Nature, future, the > > > interests of the labor, the safety and well-being of unborn > > > generations, and other such externalities. > > > > > > India's ruling class says that if India has to achieve and > sustain the > > > desired growth level of 9-10 percent, the country has to have energy > > > security, or as some nationalist leaders put it, energy independence. > > > In India, electricity has always been considered to be a development > > > input but now it has come to be regarded as a tradable commodity. Of > > > the 593,732 villages in India (1991 census) 474,982 have been > > > electrified with the remarkable 80 percent electrification. But if we > > > look at the electrification of rural households, we see a different > > > picture. There are some 138.3 million rural households (2001 census) > > > in India but only 60.2 million of them have access to electricity and > > > the electrification percentage is only 44 percent. So it is not that > > > electricity is not available in their villages for these rural > > > households but they simply cannot afford it. It is poverty that > > > prevents them from accessing electricity. > > > > > > Although India has more or less sufficient quantity of electricity > > > today, a considerable portion of our electricity is said to be wasted > > > because of technical and commercial factors. Some 40% of electricity > > > is lost in transmission because of energy dissipation in conductors > > > and equipment used for Transmission and Distribution (T&D). > Pilferage, > > > defective meters, error in meter reading, error in estimating > > > unmetered supply are other reasons for this huge wastage of > > > electricity. So the challenges India faces today include reducing and > > > eliminating T&D loss, improving the quality of supply and > delivery > > > systems, providing electricity for all at affordable price, and > > > improving the economic lot of all the people across the country. > > > > > > Ignoring all these socioeconomic-political intricacies and > > > complexities, India's ruling class seeks a scientific-technical > > > solution for the energy issue and keeps chanting the nuclear mantra. > > > They completely overlook the facts that there have been no new > nuclear > > > power stations built in the United States for the past 35 years and > in > > > Russia for almost 22 years, and that many European countries are > > > phasing out their nuclear power program. There is hardly any debate > > > about the enormous amount of dangerous nuclear waste we will > > > accumulate from the nuclear power plants, the need to safeguard this > > > "hazmat treasure" for 48,000 years, huge amounts of heavy > metals > > > discharged by light and heavy water reactors, radiation blues, > shoving > > > around fissile material, nuclear weapons proliferation, and > Armageddon > > > on the Earth. > > > > > > In fact, American, Russian and French capitalists try to dump their > > > nuclear technology on India for their own survival and profit. Global > > > capitalism turns any calamity to its advantage, and it puts forward > > > nuclear power as the answer for climate change. If we look closely, > > > mining and processing of uranium, building nuclear power stations > with > > > so much cement and steel, the long construction process, the > > > decommissioning of the plants, and handling the radioactive waste - > > > all cause considerable climate-changing pollution. > > > > > > Just as nuclear power is not an answer for climate change, it is not > a > > > panacea for our energy needs. As the People's Democracy and many > of > > > the Leftist leaders have pointed out, the contribution of nuclear > > > power to the national grid has been so small and will continue to be > > > so even after the India-US nuclear deal comes into effect. Nuclear > > > power is also more expensive than any other mode of electricity > > > generation. > > > > > > Global capitalism promotes nuclear power as the single solution for > > > all the world's energy woes and its economic development. In > India, so > > > much money has already been wasted on nuclear power projects that are > > > expensive, inefficient and troublesome. Since the current cash crunch > > > is mainly due to nuclear power being very expensive and capital > > > intensive, Indian nuclear establishment has expressed interest in > > > inviting private investments and amending nuclear laws to facilitate > > > privatization. What all this means is that while private companies > > > make money with no responsibilities whatsoever, Indian taxpayers and > > > the "ordinary citizens" will bear the cost of dealing with > all the > > > liabilities such as nuclear waste, possible accidents, public health > > > issues and other dangerous consequences. > > > > > > The international and Indian capitalists will thrive at the cost of > > > India's poor. National Commission for Enterprises in the > Unorganized > > > Sector reveals that 320 million Indian workers live on less than 20 > > > rupees a day. The National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) has recorded > > > 1,66,304 farmers' suicides in a decade since 1997. There were > 17,060 > > > farmers' suicides in 2006 alone across India. All these mean that > > > there has been one farmer's suicide every 30 minutes since 2002 > (The > > > Hindu, January 31, 2008). When our people lack basic food security, > > > water security, sanitation security, job security, and human > security, > > > energy security is bandied about to promote the interests of the rich > > > and powerful. > > > > > > Nobody except the Leftists dares to challenge any nuclear activity > in > > > the country. In fact, the present > > > pro-military-industrial-academic-complex-thinking considers uranium > > > mining, nuclear power plants, nuclear weaponization, nuclear deals > > > with Americans, Russians and the French, and strategic partnerships > > > with them as integral parts of being a patriotic Indian. Nuclearism > > > has been part and parcel of the Northern capitalist development > > > paradigm and the UPA government is underscoring this aspect to gain > an > > > upper hand in the national political game. An unequivocal > > > problematization of this mainstream understanding of > "development" has > > > become the need of the hour. > > > > > > A highly populated country like India does have an increasing need > for > > > energy. But that energy has to be economical, sustainable and > > > environment-friendly for the same reason of having over- and dense- > > > population. The country needs to spend less on energy because there > > > are other pressing needs such as health, education, housing, > > > transportation and so forth. India cannot afford the "use and > > > discord" strategy as in nuclear power projects for obvious > reasons of > > > limited land availability, reliance on the sea and sea food, future > > > generation's interests and so forth. Its energy projects have to > be > > > environmentally-friendly because even a small incident can harm, hurt > > > or kill a huge number of people. > > > > > > Nuclear power is beset with threats and dangers that can encompass > > > the most improbable meteorite fall to the commonplace terrorist > > > attack. For instance, The Hindu newspaper (September 6, 2006) > reported > > > that a meteorite fell at Kanvarpura village near Rawatbhata, where > > > Rajasthan Atomic Power Plant is situated, on August 29, 2006. The > > > [Geological Survey of India Deputy Director-General (western region) > > > R. S. Goyal] said the meteorite could have caused devastation on an > > > 'unimaginable scale' if it had fallen on the Rawatbhata > Atomic Power > > > Plant. Presiding over a crucial day-long meeting of the Chief > > > Ministers on Internal Security, the Indian Prime Minister said > > > terrorist outfits planned possible terrorist attacks on vital > > > installations including nuclear establishments (The Hindu, September > > > 6, 2006). In fact, two armed men were reportedly seen moving in the > > > inner fencing area around the Kakrapar nuclear power plant in Gujarat > > > (The Hindu, August 23, 2006). The plant was declared safe later > > > without much elaboration. > > > > > > Most importantly, nuclearism is a global political ideology that > > > cannot stomach any transparency, accountability or popular > > > participation. It snubs dissent, denounces opponents and creates a > > > political climate of fear and retribution. With the India-US nuclear > > > deal, and the deals with Russia and France and the private > > > participation in nuclear energy generation, the situation is going to > > > get out of hand. The combination of profiteering companies, secretive > > > state apparatus and repressive nuclear department will be ruthless > and > > > this nexus of capitalism, statism, nuclearism and communalism does > not > > > augur well for the country. These forces gaining an upper hand in our > > > national polity will mean a death knell for the country's > democracy, > > > openness, futures and sustainable development. > > > > > > When the beginning of the 21st century provides India a historic > > > opportunity to be a world-leader by building on our traditional > > > strengths such as sustainable development and appropriate technology, > > > our elites are forcing us to be American stooges with war-based > values > > > and wasteful lifestyle. > > > > > > The way out of this capitalistic and imperialistic quandary is to be > > > progressive and being progressive does not necessarily mean going > back > > > to the days of pastoral simplicity. We need to strive for Green > > > alternatives for our modern needs. The Leftists with Green values > > > would be a boon for the country at this hour of crisis. > > > > > > We would like to present you with a concrete example. We are sure you > > > have heard about the Koodankulam nuclear power plant that is being > > > constructed in the Koodankulam village on the Gulf of Mannar in > > > Tirunelveli district of Tamil Nadu. The Government of India is > > > constructing two 1000 MW light water VVER nuclear power plants with > > > Russian technology and loans. They have not released any > Environmental > > > Impact Assessment (EIA) report, or the safety analysis report or the > > > site evaluation study for the first two plants they are constructing. > > > Nor have they conducted any public hearing to hear what the people of > > > southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala have to say about the construction of > > > these two nuclear power plants. We in southern Tamil Nadu and Kerala > > > are very concerned about this undemocratic and anti-people > > > multimillion dollar project that is thrust down our throats in the > > > name of "development" and "energy security." > > > > > > Neither the Government of India nor the Department of Atomic Energy > > > (DAE) has shared any information about the Koodankulam plants or > > > anything about the overall nuclear energy plans with any kind of > > > transparency, democratic spirit or civic responsibility. They spread > > > rumors and gossips about their plans and intentions and when these > > > "unconfirmed reports" circulate among the public for > sometime and gain > > > some negative acceptance, they confirm the hearsays. The Nuclear > Power > > > Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) has decided to increase the > > > number of reactors at Koodankulam to eight (The Hindu, September 25, > > > 2006). The National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC) also has > proposed > > > to establish nuclear power plants in or near Koodankulam with the > > > generating capacity of 2000 MW power (The Hindu, September 6, 2006). > > > So, as a recent newspaper report confirms (The Hindu, September 11, > > > 2008) Koodankulam will be the largest mega nuclear complex with > almost > > > 10,000 MW generation capacity. > > > > > > Some of the RTI enquiries to the district collectors of a few > southern > > > Tamil Nadu and southern Kerala districts reveal how woefully > > > inadequate they are about the nuclear safety arrangements and > > > emergency preparedness. The India-Russia agreement on Koodankulam > > > stipulated first that Russia would take the nuclear waste but now it > > > has been decided that the waste will remain in India. There is hardly > > > any discussion or consciousness among the political or bureaucratic > > > circles about the nuclear waste issues, decommissioning questions, > > > radiation hazards, future impact on our seas, fish and so forth. > > > Nuclear waste management is going to be a major headache for our > > > people. That is why D. D. Kosambi branded nuclear power as a > "menace > > > that even the unborn generations have to deal with." He further > said, > > > "only opportunists and third rate scientists spend their time > and > > > energies on nuclear power." > > > > > > Our people in the southern districts of Tamil Nadu and Kerala are > > > taking a clear and bold stand that these nuclear power plants are not > > > in the best interests of us and these projects should be stopped for > > > ever. The Koodankulam mega nuclear complex will have disastrous > > > consequences for all of us, the Tamils, the Malayalees, and even the > > > Sinhalese and the Maldivians in the neighboring countries. > > > > > > Friends in Kerala have had such a fine record of fighting for the > > > Silent Valley, against the soft-drink companies' stealing their > water > > > resources etc. They took such a courageous stand in not having any > > > nuclear power plants in Kerala because of the over and > > > dense-population in the state. But the Government of India has pushed > > > the plant just a little outside their state boundary and set up the > > > plant right across their front door. > > > > > > When 10 nuclear power plants release the coolant effluents into the > > > sea on daily basis for the next four to five decades, one can think > of > > > the impact and repercussions that will have on all our air, our land, > > > our water, our sea, our fish, our cattle, our children, our fathers > > > and mothers, our health, and our future. The vested interests are > > > trying to set our common home on fire in the name of energy security > > > and national security. How about our human security? Our food > > > security? Our air security? The security of our children who speak > and > > > sing in Tamil, Malayalam, Sinhalese and Divehi? Their songs and > dances > > > and their dreamy futures? > > > > > > This corner may be the "End of India" for the rest of > India! But for > > > us, this has been the beginning of India, the beginning of life, the > > > beginning of everything! This place, this little corner of hills and > > > high seas, rivers and forests, and ponds and paddy fields, is full of > > > beginnings for us. This is where our life began, our history began, > > > our culture began, our speech, our memories, our meanings, our dreams > > > and desires – all began. But what will come off this beautiful > place? > > > > > > Almost all our political parties, politicians, bureaucrats, religious > > > leaders, and many NGOs have turned a blind eye to the nuclear issue. > > > When people ask some uncomfortable questions about the nuclear > > > project, we are often branded as unpatriotic, anti-national, and even > > > CIA agents. It is quite ironic that the Indian elites call the people > > > who oppose the nuclear program CIA agents when they themselves are > > > selling the country to the Americans. > > > > > > Only the Leftists can and may tell us that we, the working class of > > > India and the neighboring countries, are all human beings, that we > all > > > have a common home, the south of South Asia, that the sea is part and > > > parcel of our home, and that fish is the most important food for us > > > all. In short, the people of the south of South Asia share the same > > > destiny of nuclear agony and only the Leftists can see this at the > > > larger international picture and offer us a way out. Some Leftists > > > tend to think that it is only the United States we should oppose and > > > not nuclear energy per se or nuclear cooperation with Russia or > > > France. Russia, like America, is also a capitalistic country and is > > > interested in selling their nuclear technology to India in order to > > > make some quick bucks. > > > > > > It is high time the Left all over India took an unambiguous stand > > > against expensive, inefficient, dangerous waste-producing, > > > weapons-proliferating, Nature-harming, future-hurting, > > > children-killing, colonizing and enslaving nuclear energy without > > > riders and exceptions and ifs and buts! Nuclearism is no more an > > > energy issue or a scientific matter but a life-threatening political > > > issue. The Left parties and leaders can and must make a difference in > > > the nuclear issue just as you have done in the ongoing global > > > financial crisis. Hoping that you would take this appeal seriously > and > > > lead us to better futures, we send you our best personal regards and > > > all peaceful wishes. > > > > > > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > S. P. Udayakumar, George Gomez, C. Boaz > > > Coordinators > > > People's Movement Against Nuclear Energy > > > Ph: 04652-240657; 9865683735 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 17:30:16 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:30:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'IM terrorists' from Kerala shot dead in Kashmir Message-ID: <6353c690810080500n4442fcb7w85bf702566d1ed8e@mail.gmail.com> 'IM terrorists' from Kerala shot dead in Kashmir *CNN-IBN* *New Delhi:* In the first incident of its kind, J-K police on Tuesday claimed to have killed two Keralite militants during a gunfight in border district of Kupwara. But the Kerala police claimed the identification papers found on the two alleged militants were forged. Security forces in Kashmir had shot dead the two militants – suspected to be Indian Mujahideen operatives – while trying to enter Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir to get training from Lashkar-e-Toiba. The Army had claimed they were from the Malappuram district in Kerala and were allegedly planning to return to India and carry out attacks. According to intelligence agencies, this group was operating from Kupwara for the last 20 days. A hunt is on for three men who escaped. Kerala terrorists in Kashmir shootout? Delhi/Srinagar/Thiruvananthapuram, Oct 8 (IANS) The killing of two suspected terrorists in the Kashmir Valley this week has led to three versions. While officials in Kashmir say the two were from Kerala, intelligence sources in Delhi believe only one was from the state. The Kerala Police is denying all links. The only certainty is that the two terrorists killed in Kashmir's Lolab Valley in Kupwara district, about 130 km from the summer capital Srinagar, were from the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Kashmir's Inspector General of Police B. Srinivas said two militants, who he maintained were from Kerala, were killed in separate encounters earlier this week. "Yes, we have killed two terrorists in two separate encounters earlier this week, both of whom belong to Kerala," he said. "They belonged to the Lashkar-e-Taiba group and their code names are Yasin and Fayaz," he said, adding that one was killed Monday and the other Tuesday in joint operations of the police and the army. Asked whether the slain guerrillas from Kerala had any links with the Indian Mujahideen that is said to have carried out the recent bombings in Delhi, Srinivas said: "It would be premature to make a comment like that. We have got in touch with the Kerala Police to establish the background of the slain terrorists." However, intelligence sources in Delhi maintain that while two Lashkar militants were killed, only one was from Kerala — identified as Mohammed Sakeer from Kovalam. The sources pointed out this was the first time in the nearly two decades of militancy in the state that such a connection had emerged. The militants gunned down were part of a group trying to sneak into Pakistani Kashmir and a hunt had been mounted for the others who reportedly escaped during the brief exchange. "This is certainly disturbing and we are exploring how strong are the links of Kerala jehadists with Pakistani militant groups and if more have exfiltrated for training," said a top intelligence functionary. The Kerala Police added a new twist to the tale saying that none belonged to the state. Kerala Inspector General of Police Arun Kumar Sinha said the issue rose after an identity card found on one of the two killed belonged to a person in Malappuram. "Mohammed Sakeer is very much in Malappuram and we also made detailed inquires in Kovalam where there were reports that one of the killed had links here in Kovalam. Our detailed inquires have revealed that there is no Kerala connection with the two killed (in) Jammu and Kashmir," said Sinha. A team of the Kerala Police is scheduled to visit the valley to carry out an identification process. From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 8 17:56:46 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:56:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810050927q510def09t1cd8c363e694768d@mail.gmail.com> References: <818792.13289.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30810050927q510def09t1cd8c363e694768d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810080526l344beceah35c82e1ee47bd156@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, Furthermore, you may want to read this excellent post by "An Indian Muslim" which answers the questions you raise. S/He is not responding specifically to your post but the some points. The co-incidence says something about how widespread this cliche of Muslims and liberals not condemning 'Islamic terrorism' must be. http://www.anindianmuslim.com/2008/09/muslims-against-terrorism.html Best, Shivam On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Dear Kshmendra, > > As a Hindu I think it is first and foremost important for me to speak > out against those who use violence in the name of "Hindus". Only then, > I think, do I have the right to speak against acts of political > violence by others. > > Secondly, there is no dearth of denunciation of acts of political > violence by Muslims. You are saying that there is a dearth, and > stating it as a fact. But it is a perception. There have been any > number of public denunciations of terrorism by Indian Muslims and > Indian Muslim organisations including Islamic seminaries. The media > doesn't give them much space as Inder says, but to the extent it does > it seems you don't take note. See for instance: > http://www.indianmuslims.info/documents/declaration_all_india_anti_terrorism_conference.html > > I completely agree with you when you write, "the greatest harm that is > done to Hindus and Muslims is by those voices who try to rationalise > with some or the other excuse the indulging in 'terrorism' by the the > Hindus and Muslims in the name of their respective religions." Tell > me, how many op-eds, posts etc have you seen, whether by the truly > secular or the untruly secular, saying that the recent bomb blasts by > the "Indian Mujahideen" are justified as they are a result of Gujarat > 2002? After all the "Indian Mujahideen" state in their emails that > they are avenging Gujarat 2002. So they are merely following Modi's > interpretation of Newton's laws. But tell me, how many > 'Muslims'/'Secularists'/'Intellectuals' have justified/not condemned/ > explained away the IM attacks thus? > > best > shivam > > > > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Some thoughts for Naeem. Some for everyone. > > > > FOR NAEEM > > Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article to serve as an introduction to your posting was the line: > > > > """""" even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""""" > > > > Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this. > > > > As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words: > > > > """""" I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." """""""""" > > > > > > FOR EVERYONE: > > There is some "Hindu Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Hinduism or directly linked to the Hindu Identity of the perpetrators. > > > > Thankfully for India, there are more than many people including Hindus who highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it. These voices include ordinary people as well as opinion-makers and opinion-generators. > > > > There is also some "Islamic Terrorism" in India - 'terrorism' in the name of Islam or directly linked to the Islamic Identity of the perpetrators. > > > > For me as an Indian, what is missing are the voices including those of Muslims and of ordinary people and opinion-makers and opinion-generators who would highlight it, analyse it, forcefully and vehemently denounce it and campaign against it. > > > > If the voices are 'truly secular', they would be voices common for the denouncement of and campaigning against both "Hindu Terrorism" and "Islamic Terrorism", voices of equal fervour and frequency for both denouncements. > > > > The greatest harm that is done to India, the greatest harm that is done to Hindus and Muslims is by those voices who try to rationalise with some or the other excuse the indulging in 'terrorism' by the the Hindus and Muslims in the name of their respective religions. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > > From: Naeem Mohaiemen > > Subject: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us > > To: "Sarai Reader List" > > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 1:07 PM > > > > ...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > > > > > > Others Among Us > > By Suroor Mander > > > > 04 October, 2008 > > Countercurrents.org > > > > I opened newspapers today, to be frank, after many days. Newspaper > > after newspaper had articles on Eid. It had to be, Eid was just > > yesterday (October 2). I went through article after article, my heart > > sinking as I read. What have we done I wondered. So much fear in > > Muslim community, that too in secular India, on Gandhi Jayanti. > > > > It seems as if the community is under siege, trying hard to keep > > watchful eyes at bay. Speeches from every Imam, cries from every > > Muslim ghetto begging people accept them. > > > > It isn't as if these voices weren't around earlier they just became > > more prominent after the Jamia encounter in the heart of the national > > capital. Floodgates opened. Every Muslim who could write, be it > > teachers, journalists, techies tried every forum – the newspapers, > > internet, television, in one way or another imploring people to stop > > hating them. They tried hard to explain that they weren't the > > terrorists, some even adding that those young boys also might not have > > been terrorists. The more I would read, the more I was disgusted with > > us. > > > > What have we done? We have let the Hindutva forces win. Golwarkar > > didn't want the Muslims to be banished to another land or > > exterminated; they wanted them to live in fear as second class > > citizens. > > > > Since when was it a curse for people to believe in their faith? Why it > > is so bad if the Muslims believe in their faith, staunch about their > > namaaz, rozas guided by the tenets of their religion, aren't all > > believers? Hindus who pray everyday, leaving their house with a tika > > or stop eating meat and other things during Navratras etc aren't > > viewed with contempt then why Muslims? If secular Indian gives Hindus > > the freedom to walk out of their homes with Tikas, then why do we > > stare at every skull capped and bearded Muslims? > > > > We have forced a community to stand up and condemn every act allegedly > > done by their fundamentalists; expecting this from the educated, the > > literate, the clerics and the ignorant. However, we don't have any > > such expectation from Hindus against violence perpetuated by > > fundamentalists from their community. > > > > We are thriving on the grief of terrified mothers beseeching people to > > give their children a chance to access justice; gloating on the fact > > that even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house." > > Strangely none of this has horrified us. We are happy to let the > > community reiterate their secular identity while none of us ever have > > to. > > > > We have become complacent in this hate, allowing our silences to be > > read as our consent. If we truly believe in the secular identity of > > this country we have to actively voice our dissent against hate. > > > > I am still haunted by the words of that man in Thane "Where will I go? > > This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die." I > > wonder how many agonised voices it would take for us to speak what our > > hearts feel. > > > > Suroor Mander is attached to the NGO Aman Biradari in new Delhi. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 20:14:15 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:14:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70810080744m1f4a6c46u29ed89d74fd9b75a@mail.gmail.com> thanks for forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all over the world. i remember a Wim Wenders ( i dont remember the title of the film ), wherein a middle class man kills his wife, his child, a neighbor, and finally himself. That was quite profound as far as my understanding of cinema is considered. The reason for the action was triggered almost by nothing. The victim-cum-murderer was not a interactive person, and would easily lapse into some incoherence while speaking to friends in a party. He was a draftsman working in the office an architect's firm. Drawing lines on sheets all the day. one can interpret his job of drawing lines in many ways... I dont know how to describe actions like these, because the present ways of living can drive a man into some depression. Chasing a dream can land a person into a strange unpredictable domain, which instantly gives her/him an alien look. Just a couple of moment ago, he was just one like us, this is how friends/relatives think after hearing about such a thing..... ,but the quantum of flux hidden inside a person is difficult to fathom. We were perhaps never in a position to judge the other. Our own beings too can devastate/transform a so called smooth living in a fraction of a second. No one to blame. The desire has an abstract face too, which are not familiar with. We are always, perhaps, trying to know its form, texture and meaning . But the element of chaos hidden inside us perplexes us all the time. Some one said, Kartik Rajaram was a HAPPY GO LUCKY person, but then how many amongst are like that. I feel most of times we are surrounded by situations which are simply meant for fun. I dont if some psychoanalytic treatment could have helped him out the situation. He had perhaps, lost some necessary grains in his brains. or had replaced them with some other cells which are alien to us right now. Only 'Americanism' is not the culprit. love is On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Father kills family and himself, despondent over financial losses > By Richard Winton, Evelyn Larrubia and Kimi Yoshino > Los Angeles Times > October 7, 2008 > http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-porterranch7-2008oct07,0,523407,full.story > > Karthik Rajaram was found dead in his Porter Ranch home along with his > wife, mother-in-law and 3 sons. Neighbors and coworkers say he was a > loving father, but 'very intense' and at times unstable. > > Karthik Rajaram had fallen hard. > > The 45-year-old Porter Ranch financial manager who once made more than > $1.2 million in a London-based venture fund had lost his job. His luck > playing the stock market ran out. > > On Sept. 16, he bought a gun. He wrote two suicide notes and a last > will and testament. And then, sometime between Saturday night and > Monday morning, he killed his wife, mother-in-law and three sons, and > took his own life. > > "This is a perfect American family behind me that has absolutely been > destroyed, apparently because of a man who just got stuck in a rabbit > hole, if you will, of absolute despair, somehow working his way into > believing this to be an acceptable exit," said LAPD Deputy Chief > Michel Moore. "It is critical to step up and recognize we are in some > pretty troubled times." > > In a letter addressed to police, Rajaram blamed his actions on > economic hardships. A second letter, labeled "personal and > confidential," was addressed to family friends; the third contained a > last will and testament, Moore said. > > The letter to police voiced two options: taking his own life, or > killing himself and his entire family. "He talked himself into the > second strategy," Moore said. "That that would be the honorable thing > to do." > > Authorities believe Rajaram killed his family and himself after seeing > his finances wiped out by the stock market collapse, according to a > source familiar with the case, who spoke on condition of anonymity > because the investigation is ongoing. > > Concern about the family's welfare began Monday morning when Rajaram's > wife, 39-year-old Subasri, did not show up for her carpool. Friends > went to the house in the 20600 block of Como Lane, only to find it > strangely quiet. The morning newspaper lay in the frontyard. The > family's two cars, a Suburban and a Lexus SUV, were parked in the > driveway. > > When police entered the home in the gated, Spanish-style community, > they first found the gunman's mother-in-law, Indra Ramasesham, 69, > dead in a downstairs bedroom. His wife and three sons -- Krishna, 19, > a sophomore at UCLA majoring in business economics; Ganesha, 12; and > Arjuna, 7, all named after Indian gods and warriors -- were discovered > in various upstairs bedrooms, all shot in the head, some with multiple > gunshot wounds. > > Their father was found dead in a bedroom with Ganesha and Arjuna, the > gun still in his hand, police said. > > The Rajarams had lived in the upscale Sorrento neighborhood of Porter > Ranch for a couple years in a 2,800-square-foot rented house. The > landlords, another Indian couple, said that the family paid their rent > on time and that there were no indications of trouble. > > Neighbors in the Northridge neighborhood where the family previously > lived said they were well-liked and enjoyed entertaining guests. > Except for one night when residents heard a man screaming for hours, > the family seemed content for the nine years they lived there. > > "He loved those kids more than any man I've seen love his sons," said > next-door neighbor Sue Karns. > > But Karthik Rajaram, who held an MBA from UCLA, was a hard-driving > businessman. He was involved in several financial ventures. Between > his home sale and another lucrative investment, he should have had a > pile of cash. > > A 2001 article in The Daily Telegraph of London, under the headline > "Bust, but big bucks for the big boys," called Rajaram a "winner" in a > deal for NanoUniverse, a Los Angeles- and London-based venture fund > taken public on the London Stock Exchange. > > For a 12,500-pound investment, Rajaram, one of the company's founders, > received 875,000 pounds -- or about $1.2 million in 2001 dollars -- > after a voluntary liquidation, the newspaper reported. > > He also sold his house in 2006, a calculated decision even though his > wife, a bookkeeper at a pharmacy, did not want to move, their former > neighbors said. > > He sold the house for $750,000, making a sizable profit on a home the > couple purchased in 1997 for $274,000. > > "The market was going down and he wanted to get out before the bottom > dropped out," Karns said. "I talked to him last December and he said, > 'I feel I did a good thing by selling when I did.' " > > It is unclear how Rajaram invested the cash since then and how he lost it. > > In 2003 and 2004, he worked for Greg Robinson, an entrepreneur and > founder of several companies, at Azur Partners LLC, a management > consulting agency. > > Robinson said he was forced to fire Rajaram because "his life wasn't > moving in the right direction." > > "He had some behavioral problems," Robinson said. "He wasn't reliable. > . . . He was not an emotionally stable person. It was a real problem > and would affect any business he was involved in." > > The two had also worked together in the Century City office of > PriceWaterhouseCoopers and Robinson recalled Rajaram as being "a very > smart guy," who he believed posted a perfect score on his business > school entrance exam. > > Although Karns and her husband said they liked Karthik Rajaram and > were stunned by the news, they said he was "very high-strung, very > intense." > > "The man was never relaxed," Sue Karns said. > > In the Porter Ranch neighborhood, next-door neighbor Kinda Almukaddem > said she had rarely spoken to the family since they moved in a couple > of years ago. But in the last two weeks, Karthik Rajaram visited her > twice asking whether she would be home this past weekend. He urged her > to keep her side windows shut because he had heard of burglaries in > the area. > > Rajaram seemed nervous -- shaking, pacing and taking notes on a > notepad as he spoke to her, she said. > > "He noticed my side windows were open, the side that my house shares > with him," she said. "Now, come to think of it, I think he was trying > to have me close my windows on that side so I wouldn't hear anything." > > Police said nobody reported hearing gunshots or anything out of the ordinary. > > But on Monday, the neighborhood was far from normal, with police > leading convoys of media into the gated community. Children at nearby > Alfred B. Nobel Middle School, where 12-year-old Ganesha Rajaram was a > seventh-grade honors student, were sent home with notes informing > their parents of the news. > > "This one will shake people to the core," Principal Robert Coburn > said. "When you think about it, all kids have a mom and dad. And if a > father can do this to his kids, it's very scary." > > richard.winton at latimes.com > evelyn.larrubia at latimes.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Wed Oct 8 20:19:09 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:49:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] 'To preserve our secular inheritance' Message-ID: <169ff67c0810080749u3084a62aqd4e0add7a9eceead@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, Pasted below is an interview that VC of Jamia gave to our 'pseudo-secular' magazine Frontline outlying his reasons regarding his decision to provide legal aid to Jamia students. Broadly speaking, it seems to me, that Prof.Hasan is got a mind of his own and he refuses to give any rationale or reasonable explanation for his act. He terms the adverse effect of his decision on the placement process as 'Unfortunate'. Most of the questions are answered by putting his self in the forefront, 'I think', 'I thought so' etc. He even thinks that terrorism is a 'passing phase'! Although he emphasized in the very beginning of the interview that he will be first to quit if everyone is found guilty. If any of the students who are charged as accused were to be guilty as charged would just quitting his post absolve Prof.Hasan of the responsibility of his act? I don't think that at this time we can ponder about it as the story is still unfolding. But nevertheless I would be happy to hear what other members on this list think about this issue. Regards Nazo http://www.frontlineonnet.com/stories/20081024252102800.htm Frontline Volume 25 - Issue 21 :: Oct. 11-24, 2008 INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE from the publishers of THE HINDU TERRORISM 'To preserve our secular inheritance' PURNIMA S.TRIPATHI Interview with Mushirul Hasan, Vice-Chancellor, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi. MUSHIRUL HASAN. HE says he will be the first to quit if any student is proven guilty. JAMIA MILLIA ISLAMIA in New Delhi, a Central university, has been in the news because of the recent arrest of two of its students for their alleged involvement in the bomb blasts in New Delhi and elsewhere. One of the alleged terrorists killed in the Jamia Nagar encounter in Delhi, Atif Ameen, had enrolled at the university only in August this year. Vice-Chancellor Professor Mushirul Hasan announced that the university would provide legal aid to its students who were arrested, a stand which was subsequently endorsed by Union Human Resource Development (HRD) Minister Arjun Singh. Hasan told Frontline that it was his personal decision because he felt as a teacher and as the head of an institution that it was his moral responsibility to stand by his students until the legal process reached its logical conclusion. A Padma Shri awardee who has written 11 books on Indian history, Hasan has presented many papers at world fora and is an authority on Islam, Partition and communalism. "I will be the first person to quit if even a single student of my university is ever found expressing solidarity with terrorist activities anywhere," said Hasan. Excerpts from the interview: Everyone was surprised by your announcement that the university would provide legal aid to students arrested for their alleged involvement in the bomb blasts. What made you take this stand? These are only charges at the moment. Our jurisprudence dictates that one is innocent until proven guilty. This was my personal decision because I felt as a teacher and as the head of an institution, it was my moral responsibility. After all, is the teacher not considered the mai-baap [mother-father] by the students? I was only trying to calm nerves on the campus and assure my students and the faculty that nobody is denied his or her fundamental rights in this country. I have nothing to say on the encounter; it is outside my brief. But I had to come into the picture because three of our students were involved. I was concerned about its impact on the campus. How would you justify your stand, all the more because Jamia is a Central university and the BJP says you are spending taxpayers' money to help terrorists? I owe no explanation or justification to anybody. Those who know me or are aware of my credentials will understand my decision. As for the criticism from the BJP, I take it as a certificate of my "good conduct". Any words of appreciation from the BJP, in fact, would embarrass me. Their criticism is proof that I am on the right track. As for spending taxpayers' money, this is not true. The funds are being contributed by the teachers voluntarily. There is a committee for this purpose. Besides, we have a students aid fund from which we regularly help students in situations like medical emergencies. We have spent from this fund for arranging bails in the case of an incident of violence in which 40 students were arrested. So this is not something we have done for the first time. But here the charges are of being involved in terrorist activities. That is still to be proved. I took the decision to foil the attempt by a section of the political parties and the media to damage the university's image. Just because a couple of students have been implicated in cases, it does not make the entire university a nerve centre of terrorist activity. This vicarious attempt by a section to discredit the independent, pluralist and secular credentials of the university is unfortunate and it was to defeat this campaign that I took this stand. I owe no explanation for my conduct to anybody. After I decided, I merely informed the HRD Minister, UGC [University Grants Commission] Chairman, the Secretary and the Joint Secretary concerned. They are not obliged either to agree or disagree with me. My only intention is to defend and preserve the secular inheritance of our university and calm nerves. As for the students being accused of involvement in terrorist activities, let them be proven guilty first. The law of the land says that you are innocent until proven guilty. If they are proven guilty and convicted, good, bad and sad. They would deserve their punishment. But if they are exonerated, then also it is fine, no big cause for jubilation. I can assure you that if ever any of my students were found expressing solidarity with terrorism anywhere, I would be the first person to quit. The spirit of the university must not be compromised or tarnished by anyone whatsoever. What is the impact of the incident on the campus? Except for the first few days of nervous tension, the campus has been a model of exemplary behaviour. We had a massive peace march in which 9,000-10,000 students participated. But yes, there is a sense of insecurity among students, which is true for both Hindu and Muslim students. Landlords in the neighbouring areas are asking our students to vacate their houses; the very sight of the police makes the students nervous. The university administration, however, is trying to instil a sense of security among the students. We asked the government to remove the police from the campus immediately afterwards. We are also trying to solve the hostel problem; we are building a new hostel for about 1,500 students, which should be ready in six to eight months. The biggest assurance, however, has been the fact that the faculty is solidly behind the administration and has been instrumental in restoring the faith and confidence of the locality in the honour and secular image of the university. They also feel that the impeccable reputation of the university cannot be damaged by isolated non-events like this. Has the incident affected the placement process? Unfortunately yes, some of our students have been asked embarrassing questions. Though this cannot be helped at the moment, I hope, with the passage of time, this will stop. Does it hurt you that despite having such an impeccable reputation you have to stand up and declare your secular credentials? Well, this cannot be helped, I guess. But I do hope that this phase is short-lived, as the problems in Punjab were. I do hope that this is a passing phase and will pass by without much damage to our great institution. The BJP has criticised you. Has any political party expressed solidarity with you? I don't want to be involved in political battles. I am keen that political parties should not jump into the fray on this issue. We have not had any public meeting addressed by any political leader on the campus; we have not had any politicians visiting us. I wanted no political tamaasha [show], no rhetoric, no speeches, nothing. The ABVP [Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad, the student wing of the BJP] tried to enter the campus shouting slogans, but they were stopped outside. Are you convinced that your students are not guilty? Do you check their antecedents at the time of admission? What sort of an antecedent can a 19- or 20-year-old have? They mostly come from poor families, from far-off areas. As for these two [students], I can't say until the investigations are complete. It may or may not be true, they might have been misled, brainwashed by vested interests. I cannot vouch for that. But it is not possible for us to check the antecedents of all students. We have no such agency at our disposal. In fact, we have no column in our admission forms even to identify students as Hindus or Muslims. • From sushmita.sridhar at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 20:56:24 2008 From: sushmita.sridhar at gmail.com (Sushmita Sridhar) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:56:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE journals until October 31, 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Free online access to all SAGE journals until October 31, 2008 * As someone who has previously registered for a trial of an online journal published by SAGE, we want to let you know about our current free access period. You can now register for free online access to over *500 SAGE journals* with content available from 1999–current, until *October 31, 2008* ! 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Remove me from this list 1083164 From yousufism at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 21:24:00 2008 From: yousufism at gmail.com (M Yousuf) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:24:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Amarnath Samiti doing more harm than good: Jammu residents In-Reply-To: <19ba050f0810080053r5d39e26aj24099b7c0977883@mail.gmail.com> References: <19ba050f0810080053r5d39e26aj24099b7c0977883@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <19ba050f0810080854j7df5e6ffub5453f6a5a52a5cc@mail.gmail.com> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3569239.cms Amarnath Samiti doing more harm than good: Jammu residents JAMMU: Many people in Jammu have stopped rallying around the Shri Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti, saying protests organised by it have already cost them too much economically and now it is meddling in their social affairs as well. "We are a tolerant society, we were asking for restoration of land to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board and not the unwanted tags which have come partly because of the utterances of the Samiti leaders and partly by deliberate misrepresentation of facts," bemoaned Daisy Sharma, a businessman here. "My shop remained closed for more than two months, but I had to shell out fees for my children and also pay salaries to my employees, and now I am told that the agreement that the Samiti signed with the government is a watered down version of the first order of land allotment to the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board," he said. In retaliation to Kashmir's boycott of Jammu traders, the Samiti has now said Kashmiri children should be refused admission to educational institutions here. People here say such utterances have only damaged the Samiti's image. The Samiti, a conglomerate of 30 social, religious, political and business organisations, spearheaded over two months the agitation against the cancellation of land allotted for pilgrims to the Amarnath shrine. This led to an economic blockade of the valley and caused a communal divide between Hindu-dominated Jammu and Muslim-dominated Kashmir. But Jammu residents say they are hurt about being dubbed as "Hindu communalists", virtually being clubbed with right wing mobs who are attacking Christians and their churches in Orissa, Karnataka and Kerala. Anil Kumar Padha, a local businessman, could not make it to marriage of his closest friend, Ashraf Malik, in Budgam in the Kashmir valley. "My family did not allow me to go there in the prevailing atmosphere of fear and suspicion between the two regions. So I had to make an excuse for not attending." A majority of Jammu residents believe the Samiti may have done more harm than good to the region. Students here could not appear in all-India entrance examinations and the economy suffered a loss of over Rs.100 billion, says local traders' body chief Rajender Motial. Worst of all, relations between the Jammu region and Kashmir valley in terms of the political, religious and social landscape have hit an all-time low. Rekha Choudhary, head of the political science department in Jammu University, said: "The losses have not only been in terms of economy. What is more worrying is the communal divide and response to separatist calls by Muslims in the Jammu region." She says there was complete loss of faith and trust between the two regions, which is "visible to a great extent between the communities". People are blaming the Samiti's tough stand during the agitation and some incidents of Kashmiri drivers being beaten up for the boycott of Jammu products by Kashmiri traders. So much so that National Conference president Omar Abdullah last week blamed the Samiti and the alleged economic blockade of the valley in the Jammu region for the rise of separatist forces in the Kashmir valley. "The economic blockade injected a new life into the Hurriyat Conference and the separatists," Abdullah declared at a rally of his party workers. "It is time the Samiti saw the writing on the wall. It is not required. It has damaged Jammu's cause and that of the whole state," National Conference's provincial president Ajay Sadhotra told the media. The Jammu Chamber of Commerce and Industry too has asked everyone not to meddle in trade relations between the Jammu region and Kashmir valley. "It would be prudent if the trade is left alone (out) of the political discourse," chamber president Ram Sahai has said in a statement. This was seen as a rebuff to the Samiti, who had warned the government of dire consequences if Jammu's products were not bought by Kashmiri traders. Ram Sahai has had to hear persistent taunts from his Kashmiri counterparts that his chamber was part of the Samiti that enforced an "economic blockade" of the valley. That was cited as the reason for Kashmiri traders saying "no trade" to Jammu businessmen. From reyhanchaudhuri at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 22:03:50 2008 From: reyhanchaudhuri at hotmail.com (Dr. Reyhan Chaudhuri) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:33:50 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: Brooding on Eid by Irfan Hussain(in Dawn) In-Reply-To: <13df7c120810060426t5dca83f0jf0c6e814e92b037c@mail.gmail.com> References: <13df7c120810060426t5dca83f0jf0c6e814e92b037c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: reyhanchaudhuri at hotmail.comTo: rashneek at gmail.comSubject: RE: [Reader-list] Brooding on Eid by Irfan Hussain(in Dawn)Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:33:01 +0000 Dear Rashneek,You would be interested to know that two years ago,Delhi got the 'Holi' festival date mixed up.And two parts of the city,celebrated it on different days;Even for navrathri some do the ashtami puja and end their fasts while others do the navami! So,it is not even different parts of the country but families in the samec ity....There must be some Asian psyche in all that.,somewhere....In felictitations (for the festive season),R.Chaudhuri > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:56:07 +0530> From: rashneek at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Brooding on Eid by Irfan Hussain(in Dawn)> > ON Tuesday I got a call from this newspaper, informing me that as Eid would> be celebrated on Thursday, there would be no issue of Dawn on Saturday and I> did not therefore need to send a column this week.> > So I slept late the next morning in the belief that I had a day off.> However, my cellphone soon informed me that the mullahs had changed their> minds, and Eid was now on Wednesday, so a column was required after all.> Another Eid, another round of confusion. Ever since I can remember, we have> not been able to resolve this relatively simple problem. Year in and year> out, the members of the Ruet-i-Hilal Committee (or 'moon-men', according to> the long-defunct Sun) have one straightforward task to perform, and each> year they goof up. You'd think that with just one useful thing to do in 365> days, they would occasionally get it right. And yet, even Saudi Arabia> announces ahead of time when Eid will be celebrated, so it can't be rocket> science.> > Across the Muslim world, Eid is being celebrated on three different days.> This is fine, but at least these other Islamic countries have one Eid> internally. In Pakistan, on the other hand, we have often marked the> festival on different days in different places. So when people talk of the> unity of the Ummah, I can only roll my eyes in disbelief.> > While scrolling through Dawn's Internet edition, I learned that our sports> minister was very upset over the Australian decision to cancel its cricket> tour of Pakistan because of security concerns. The minister complained that> although bombs were going off in India too, the Australians were going ahead> with their visit to our neighbour. Well, the truth is that there are bombs,> and there are bombs: the devices that have taken such a tragic toll in> Indian cities were locally made, and did not involve suicide bombers. Above> all, they did not target foreigners.> > In Pakistan, given half a chance, our home-grown heroes would happily kill> as many foreigners as they could. The suicide attack at the Islamabad> Marriott appeared intended to slaughter as many westerners as possible. The> other difference is that the terrorist attacks in India were universally> condemned. In Pakistan, there is much more ambivalence in people's attitudes> towards these killers, with many in the media coming up with the "Yes, but> …" argument to somehow equate terrorism with western policies.> > We in Pakistan have lost touch with reality to the extent that we do not> realise how out of step we are with the rest of the world. Even before> Pakistan became a no-go land for foreigners, it was not a particularly> attractive destination. When Ian Botham famously declared that Pakistan was> a country he would like to send his mother-in-law to, there was an explosion> of indignation in our media. But look at it from a touring cricketer's point> of view: after a day of competitive sport, he would like to get to explore> and shop, like any other tourist. In Pakistan, however, security> considerations keep him a virtual prisoner in his hotel.> > In other countries, visiting sportsmen go off to pubs, clubs and parties;> they shop for presents; and when they are at the seaside, they go to the> beach. None of these normal activities are possible in Pakistan. So> unsurprisingly, many tours are now routinely cancelled on security grounds,> and the players probably heave a sigh of relief.> > One result of this sporting isolation is that our standards are falling> sharply. And rather than playing tough matches against visiting teams, our> players are embroiled in endless inquiries into their conduct. In fact, I> doubt if there's another cricket team in the world with greater disciplinary> issues than ours. In a way, this is a reflection on the general environment> of decline and lawlessness that has come to characterise us.> > We constantly complain that Muslims are discriminated against by the rest of> the world, but we refuse to see what a laughing stock we have reduced> ourselves to by our own actions. Recently, a publisher's house was> firebombed in London because he was about to print a novel called Jewel of> Medina. This book has still not seen the light of day, so the attackers> could not have possibly read it. And yet they were willing to kill or wound> a person for daring to agree to print it. I have little doubt that when the> book does appear, it will offend many Muslims.> > By rioting, raving and ranting against material deemed to be offensive,> Muslims do not do themselves any favours. The entire Rushdie episode, for> instance, was far more damaging to Muslims than it was to the author or his> publishers. The manner of protest over the Danish cartoons did not harm> either the offending newspaper or the cartoonist.> > Any day of the week, it is easy to watch a TV show or a stand-up comedy act> in England that people belonging to, say, the Christian faith may find> offensive but nobody gets worked up and threatens the artists involved.> Occasionally, Ofcom, the watchdog for the media, gets a complaint from a> Christian group, and it investigates to see if its guidelines have been> breached. But the Vatican or the Church of England do not issue fatwas> demanding that somebody should be murdered for a work of literature.> > More and more, Muslim societies are being seen as intolerant, violent and> irrational. And more and more, Muslims around the world seem determined to> prove their detractors right. Instead of introspection and self-analysis, we> are forever condemning the rest of the world for our plight, our isolation> and our image. This paranoia feeds our perpetual state of self-righteous> indignation.> > Re-reading this column, I can see that it is not entirely appropriate for> Eid. But that's what the mullahs get for depriving me of my day off. And> Happy Eid, no matter when or where you celebrated it.> > > http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm> > -- > Rashneek Kher> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> MSN Technology brings you the latest on gadgets, gizmos and the new hits in the gaming market. Try it now! _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 22:36:48 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:36:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation Message-ID: Politicisation of an issue=dirty, partisan play by political parties. Play by political parties=realm of social, political negotiation=openly roughing it out=mob political culture=civil war with a bumbling authoritarian state Is that news Is there another way From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Thu Oct 9 01:41:37 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:11:37 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation Message-ID: <169ff67c0810081311r6f06063cyda951d33c9df36ec@mail.gmail.com> Yes. There is. How about a dastan goi performance on Jamia and other stories, with Aamir Hamza as a terrorist/storyteller. Retelling of the present as fantastic history. N [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation mahmood farooqui mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 22:36:48 IST 2008 * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE journals until October 31, 2008 * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Politicisation of an issue=dirty, partisan play by political parties. Play by political parties=realm of social, political negotiation=openly roughing it out=mob political culture=civil war with a bumbling authoritarian state Is that news Is there another way * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE journals until October 31, 2008 * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the reader-list mailing list From mosmi_bhim at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 04:38:15 2008 From: mosmi_bhim at hotmail.com (Mosmi Bhim) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:08:15 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [iradcrea] Fwd: Protest Against attacks on christain in Orissa and Karnataka In-Reply-To: References: <219393.3284.qm@web8708.mail.in.yahoo.com> <71a661040810040015nc13728co854b1f2dc6dad516@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, My best wishes are with you, during this march. I hope authorities take note of the issues you are raising - that religious and racial discrimination violates the basic principles of human rights. Please do publicise photos and stories of the march to international media outlets, so the outside world can be aware of such continuing attacks on minority religious groups. In Fiji, the problem is opposite - it is largely Christian youths (from indigenous communities) that desecrate Hindu temples. Three Hindu temples were broken into, over the weekend. The looters failed in their attempts to burn one temple. However, the police have treated the matter very seriously. One person has already been arrested and authorities have assured that the arsonists will face the full brunt of law. Best regards, Mosmi Bhim (IRAD March 2008) To: sexualityinstitute2002 at yahoogroups.co.in; vikalp at yahoogroups.com; reader-list at sarai.net; iradcrea at yahoogroups.comFrom: phadkeshilpa at gmail.comDate: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:00:48 +0530Subject: [iradcrea] Fwd: Protest Against attacks on christain in Orissa and Karnataka ---------- Forwarded message ----------From: hasina khan Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:01:33 +0530 (IST)Subject: Protest Against attacks on christain in Orissa and KarnatakaDear all,As women's groups, we are organising a silent march, protesting thecontinuing attacks on Christians, their homes, property and churchesin Orissa and Karnataka, on the 8th of October from 3 pm. We shallgather at 3 pm at Churchgate station and march in silence to HutatmaChowk, from there we shall continue to Azad Maidan, where there willbe a few speakers who will address the gathering, and songs and someslogans. As groups we will be carrying placards and banners but themarch itself will be a protest in silence. Several students fromNirmala Niketan and TISS will be participating in the march.Please join in large numbers and inform others too about this protest march.Hasina for Awaaz-e-Niswan, Mumbai __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group New web site? Drive traffic now. Get your business on Yahoo! search. All-Bran Day 10 Club on Yahoo! Groups Feel better with fiber. Best of Y! Groups Check out the best of what Yahoo! Groups has to offer. . __,_._,___ _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 08:59:54 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Asia Journalism Fellowship Message-ID: <361032.45983.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Asia Journalism Fellowship The Fellowship brings up to 15 journalists from Asia to Singapore's Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information at Nanyang Technological University for three months. As a Fellow, you will have the opportunity to pursue your intellectual interests together with other accomplished journalists from the region, away from the deadline pressures of your job. The semi-structured programme is designed to sharpen your professional skills and deepen your understanding of trends in media and communication at a time of rapid and sweeping change. It will also provide access to key newsmakers in Singapore's public sector, business community and civil society, giving you insights into the challenges faced by one of Asia's most cosmopolitan hub cities. Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information, NTU The Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information is one of the leading schools of its kind in Asia. It has an enrollment of around 1,000 undergraduate and postgraduate students in fields such as journalism, public relations and knowledge management. Its more than 40 full-time faculty are engaged in diverse research, ranging from media law and censorship, public opinion and health communication, to video game culture and Asian film. The Wee Kim Wee School is also the home of the Asian Media Information and Communication Centre (AMIC), an NGO that spearheads the development of media and communication expertise in Asia within the broad framework of economic, social and cultural development. For more than 30 years, its programmes and publications have crossed the boundaries between academia, media professions and policy makers, allowing those with an interest in communication in Asia to share perspectives, challenges, and best practices. Temasek Foundation The Fellowship is made possible by Temasek Foundation, a non-profit philanthropic organisation anchored in Singapore that seeks to contribute to sustainable growth and a bright future of hope and opportunities for people in Asia. The foundation works with partners to support programmes that develop people through health care, education and research, programmes that build bridges between peoples, programmes that build institutions of excellence through good governance and ethics, and programmes that rebuild lives and livelihoods affected by natural disasters. For more details see: http://www.ajf.sg/index.php From patrice at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 9 15:55:24 2008 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:25:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Encounters', Colombian style Message-ID: <16290.82.233.50.198.1223547924.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Observers have wondered at the speed at which new techniques of torture and repression spread from one conflict area to another, sometimes continents away. I hope I am not contributing to this phenomenon... French daily 'Liberation' reports that in Colombia, the army now abducts destitute civilians in the cities' streets or in the countryside, bus/trucks them a few hunderd miles, and shoot them in staged 'encounters' in order to fatten up the tally of 'guerrillas'/ 'terrorists'/ 'drug dealers' eliminated, and pocket premiums, bonusses and other rewards (one 'ennemy of the state' killed = 5 days furlow). How low can you go? Meanwhile the Colombian govt has ordered inquests "in order to clean up the name of our army". Article in Liberation (in French): http://tinyurl.com/3t9xza From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 18:52:35 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:52:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] whose terror is worse then? Message-ID: Bajrang Dal dares govt to ban it 9 Oct 2008, 1330 hrs IST, IANS NEW DELHI: Bajrang Dal, the youth wing of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), has dared the Indian government to ban it, warning that the authorities will face the "consequences" if it was outlawed. "We will fight the ban and we will go to the people to explain the injustice done to us. The elections are coming up soon and it (a ban) will prove costly for the government," Prakash Sharma, national convenor of the Bajrang Dal, said. The Hindu group has in recent weeks been accused of targeting Christians and vandalising churches in Orissa and Karnataka. A far more serious charged hurled at the group in recent times has been making bombs with a view to attack Muslims. Sharma denied that Bajrang Dal members had anything to do with the violence in Orissa, where 35 Christians, mostly poor villagers, have been killed in a series of violent incidents sparked by the gunning down of a Hindu leader. "Bajrang Dal does not believe in violence of any kind. Our aim is ... public agitation by mobilising democratic governments to protect Hindus," Sharma maintained. He accused the media of portraying the Bajrang Dal negatively. "Are newspapers competent enough to tell the truth? They print anything," said Sharma. Besides Muslim organisations, mainstream politicians too have started demanding a ban on the Bajrang Dal, whose members are known to resort to violence at the slightest perceived insult to Hindu religion. Its members often take to the streets brandishing tridents and khukris. Its ideology is virulently anti-Muslim and anti-Christian. Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar is the latest Indian politician to seek a ban on the Bajrang Dal, which takes its name after the Hindu god Hanuman or Bajrang Bali. The group has been linked to a bomb blast in August 2006 at Nanded in Maharashtra where two people were killed. Apparently, its members were making bombs when one or more exploded. A similar incident occurred in August this year in Kanpur. "The person involved in the Kanpur incident used to be with Bajrang Dal 10 years ago. By that analogy, the Congress should also be banned. Their minister ... was caught for the 1993 serial blasts in Surat and now he has been jailed for 20 years," said Sharma. Sharma is unapologetic about the Bajrang Dal's role in "reconversions" in Orissa -- making Hindus who became Christians embrace Hinduism again. "What is reconversion? We are making them return to where they were before. This is 'ghar wapasi' (coming back home), and we are doing it. And it is legal," argued Sharma. Despite talk of banning the Bajrang Dal, the group is planning to launch its silver jubilee celebrations from this month. "There will be 'yagya' and 'havan' in Ayodhya Oct 13. It will be a religious event," Sharma said. The Bajrang Dal, formed in 1984, played a big role in the events leading to the demolition of the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya in December 1992, which led to widespread Hindu-Muslim violence in the country. On Wednesday, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, presiding over a cabinet meeting, said the government needed to have a "foolproof case" if Bajrang Dal needed to be banned. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Bajrang_Dal_dares_govt_to_ban_it/articleshow/3577380.cms From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 22:21:48 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:21:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] New face of terror: Educated and professionals In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0810070720x332b415bo14d03bda2888b8c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810070720x332b415bo14d03bda2888b8c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810090951r6939b6afs45cca14ae34fd0a4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Nazo i dont if this is what we call black humour, but your creative piece has indeed intensified the unfortunate subject 'New Face of Terror' . i thought of Ronald Barthes who wrote a famous pieces on the Negro Boy in French Uniform in Salute ( image in Paris Match ). it is indeed sad..... and time to ask questions love is On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote: > Dear all, > > To continue the thread of postings and forwards on Jamia and other ghastly > incidents, here's one more. It seems that now, even these 'educated' Muslims > of India, cannot keep their hands of from juvenile adventurism! But the > question we need to ask is, what kind of message does one wants to convey > when one writes 'New face of terror'? Isn't this communal profiling of the > most insidious sort? This report had a photograph of Mumbai police > commissioner Hasan Gafoor, and I was thinking who fits more to the headline? > please see > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/new-face-of-terror-educated-and-professionals/370409/ > > I propose that all educated, professional Muslims of India, particularly > those who live in metros like Delhi or Mumbai, must not let go of this once > in a life time opportunity to avail themselves of this brand. The sikhs had > this opportunity but they sadly missed it, so did the tamils, the naxals, > the manipuris. > > Here are some preliminary suggestions, first and foremost, push an > application to patent this brand, 'Terrorist'. Then a logical step must be > taken to franchise it. The organization must be strictly not-for-prophet > (ooops! profit) of course! > > Introducing brand TERRORIST > sign: T > attributes: educated, muslim > rewards to be associated with this brand: immediate visibility, TV > interviews, documentaries on life, mobility, social acceptance > psychological attributes: loyalty, committed, devoted, unflinching, can take > challenges, flexibility in work. > > 'T' > > Franchise: Terrorist cafes, Terrorist Bars, Terrorist Pubs, Terrorist > T-shirts, Terrorist condoms, Terrorist cups, Terrorist glasses, Terrorist > bindis, Terrorist saries and Terrorist bangles, Terrorist bras and panties. > There must be a Terrorist drink too. For children, it must milk with Nutmeg > or Jaiphal to induce immediate hallucination for adults it must be one shot > of Chardonnay with one shot of Vodka and two shots of beer with egg yolk, to > be taken in one gulp! > > > The Terrorist Anthem must go like: > > Mazhab nahi sikata aapas main bair rakhna > Terrorist hain hum > Watan Hai hindu-sthaan hamara hamara > Saare Jahan se accha... > > The Terrorist prayer must go like: > > Lab pe aati hai dua ban ke tammanna mere > ho mere kam zaifoon ki, dardmando ki khidtmat karna > Ilm ki shamma se ho mujhko muhabbat ya rab > > Mere allah burai se bachana mujhko > TERRORIST ki joh rah hai us reh pe chala mujhko > > > > There must be a Terrorist Academy also to train Dj's, Nurses, Waiters, > Graphic artists etc basically to supply labor to a burgeoning market created > by this brand. The prime consumer would be of course GOI. > > I don't think SRK will have any problem endorsing it. The ad will go like- > > First sequence- SRK is a middle class boy is sitting in front of a computer. > Searching for work. You know pushing employment applications. In the > background one can see trophies lined up on the wall. The search goes on. > The computer screen blinks -sorry no vacancy-. > > Second sequence- SRK is sitting dejected on the sea front in Bombay with his > girl friend. Conversation ensues- > > SRK: No jobs. They don't want me. (Looks dejected. Head bows down. Soft > breeze is hitting his face, throwing his hair to the wind) > Girlfirend: Don't worry (Places her hand on his shoulder. Looks far into the > ocean) > SRK: What will happen? When will I find my job? When will I marry you. (SRK > is almost in tears now) > Girlfriend: Wait a minute! In the Job application what do you write? > SRK: What do you mean? What do I write. > Girlfirend: (has got a glint in her eyes) No no it is important. VERY > IMPORTANT. Do you mention that you are a muslim. > SRK: No of course not. I am educated. What has my religion got to do with > this? > Girlfirend: Arre ghantu! You are an educated Muslim. Don't you see you are > a TERRORIST. You are not like those Ram sunders or Vinod sharma's. > SRK: Amina, I love you! You are my darling. (hugs her) > > Next shot: > > SRK: (Sitting in front of computer filing a job application. Typing his > religion also) Muslim. Terrorist. > Compter screen: Congratulations! You got a Job. > > SRK: (PUNCH LINE) SRK is wearing a white lenin shirt with blue jean. He is > facing the camera and an office acts as a backdrop. > > If you are educated and a muslim. you are not an educated muslim. (SRK > smiles) > > You are a Terrorist! (SRK smiles) > > DON'T EVER FORGET THAT. (Close up shot of SRK's Mouth when he says this > line) > > > > Regards > > Nazo > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 01:29:20 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:59:20 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Neel Kashkari/MBA, Soft Drink, Electric Car, Kashmir Message-ID: The folks at South Asian Journalists Association (New York) have rounded up coverage of Neel Kashkari, head of $700B bailout plan, in US media, and here are some brief excerpts. 1. NYT: "Bailout Role Elevates U.S. Official" by Charlie Savage and Ben White: Samuel L. Hayes, an emeritus professor of finance at Harvard Business School, said Mr. Kashkari will face tremendous pressures. "It's amazing to me that a guy who is only six years out of business school has been given this kind of assignment, because it would be an enormous challenge for someone with 30 years of experience," Mr. Hayes said. 2. WSJ blogger Heidi N. Moore's post, "What Neel Kashkari Learned in MBA School": Since 2006, Kashkari has been one of Paulson's regular advisers, sharing with his mentor a hairstyle, Midwestern roots, a Goldman alumni card and even the same taste in popular soft drinks. 3. "Morning Edition" profile on NPR by Yuki Naguchi: Back in the 1990s, Tom Dautel worked on a team led by Kashkari to design a solar car called the Photon Torpedo at the University of Illinois. He says Kashkari worked like a slave, often even on projects he wasn't directly overseeing. 4. Gilbert Cruz's "Two-minute Bio" of Kashkari in Time.com: "When he does anything, if you ask him to make an electric car or ask him to plan an outing to Niagara Falls, he is so meticulous."—Chaman Kashkari, father, USA Today, October 6, 2008 "I'm a free-market Republican."—Kashkari, at an American Enterprise Institute conference, Sept. 19, 2008 5. "Rakesh Kaul, a leader in the Kashmiri-American community and chairman of Spherenomics (he knows the Kashkari family)" on SAJAForum: "I view Neel's appointment in some ways as even more important than the signing of the Nuclear deal. It is the final rubber stamp of how our Indo-American community has achieved acceptance at the highest and most critical positions in the land. If there is a change in administration then we should think long and hard and see if Indians on both the Democratic and Republican side, in a spirit of bipartisanship, can ensure that he has the support to continue in his job." "Interestingly the name Neel means the color blue but also it stands for the blue sapphire in Sanskrit and as your readers may well know the best sapphires in the world came from Kashmir. Finally as a postscript. To all the Kashmiri Pandits who have been ethnically cleansed from their land and are suffering either in refugee camps or have been scattered into environments that are below their dignity and human potential. Neel is one inspiring story that took two generations from Kashmir to the US to happen but there will be many others. We will return back to our homeland from a position of strength, a strength founded on a 5,000-year culture that can produce a Neel, a Jawahar, an Abhinav Gupta, a Kalidas and many more!" And finally a photo: http://sajablogs.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/07/photo_100608_001_2.jpg From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Fri Oct 10 06:26:37 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:56:37 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation In-Reply-To: References: <169ff67c0810081311r6f06063cyda951d33c9df36ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0810091756t40d5882fvdb9bd9ded0a0d1b1@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mahmood, Thank you for replying to suggestion. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM, mahmood farooqui wrote: Good idea. But tell me a little bit about your ancestry first, not necessarily biological Pray, I wonder. What's my ancestry got to do with anything I write. I may be to a kam jaat born for all you know! I am sorry I cannot contribute to your Project Genealogy! By the way, despite all your Rhodes education and your warm latkas and jhatkas as a dastan go, your perhaps well meaning and innocuous question betray a deep rooted and a banal male castiest anxiety about strangers, something which I absolutely loathe among Indians, a la ' Kaun Jaat ', if you may. Warm regards Nazo PS: I am sorry but please don't be upset to see this reply on the reader list. it's just that i have a pathological allergy to unnecessary personal conversations. You may have noticed that I have had this conversation with other list members too, in the past. I have joined this esteemed online community to engage in a public dialogue only! I hope that is not an issue with you. And despite all the respect that I have and Will always have for the exemplary work that you are doing to revive an ancient art form of storytelling, I think I deserve an apology, to be considered as a deserving recipient to this most disgusting question, which I, in my humble opinion, think, does not fit well to the public persona that you have so carefully crafted. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM, mahmood farooqui wrote: > Good idea. But tell me a little bit about your ancestry first, not > necessarily biological > > 2008/10/9 Nazneen Anand Shamsi > > Yes. There is. >> >> How about a dastan goi performance on Jamia and other stories, with >> Aamir Hamza as a terrorist/storyteller. Retelling of the present as >> fantastic history. >> >> N >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation >> mahmood farooqui mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com >> Wed Oct 8 22:36:48 IST 2008 >> >> * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE >> journals until October 31, 2008 >> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >> >> >> >> Politicisation of an issue=dirty, partisan play by political parties. >> >> Play by political parties=realm of social, political negotiation=openly >> roughing it out=mob political culture=civil war with a bumbling >> authoritarian state >> >> Is that news >> >> Is there another way >> >> * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE >> journals until October 31, 2008 >> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >> >> More information about the reader-list mailing list >> > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 09:47:35 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:47:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami Message-ID: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal security and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have been missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise their 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came out in today's newspaper. Love Aditya Raj Kaul *Behind the Batla House shootout * Praveen Swami * Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. * "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, "I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent students, not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators and politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some reason, though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell the tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient honest officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, mundane. When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat where he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It turned out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the perpetrators between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and July 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became active again in Ahmedabad. The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the Ahmedabad bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — the sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after this, a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope that he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad left Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector Sharma was asked to settle the issue. 'Vodaphone salesman' Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up the stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and called his boss. According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the two men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped corridor which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as they entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, combat tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla House-style operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their resources and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting through the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted with Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's shirt was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, too, is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have been driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that there is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi violence; a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. Much political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit in which the lies have bred. *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm * From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 12:12:28 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:12:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Neel Kashkari/MBA, Soft Drink, Electric Car, Kashmir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6353c690810092342o789e01aex3ca3604ad9ef61f8@mail.gmail.com> Kashkari family just memories under a bridge *Muzamil Jaleel - Indian Express **Srinagar, October 7 * The 35-year-old Indian who has been tasked with bailing out the US economy from the credit crunch has his roots in Srinagar's Safriyar locality. But nobody in this rundown neighbourhood knows Neel Kashkari. His identity here is through his grandfather Sudarshan Kashkari, a former head clerk in the Electric Department, the well known Kashkari clan, a brick house on the banks of the Jhelum and a Kashkari neighbourhood which no longer exists. Neel Kashkari's family once lived in this Kashmiri Pandit locality around the Somyar temple. "We remember Sudarshan Kashkari and his three sons," says Bashir Ahmad Wani who has been running a shop in the area for over 50 years. "We were neighbours." Their house and the rest of the Kashkari neighbourhood were dismantled in 2000 to make way for a new bridge. "The temple is still there," says Wani, pointing towards two brick houses. "These are the houses of the Sadhu family, the only remnants of the time other than the memories." The only Kashmiri Pandit shopkeeper in the neighbourhood, 65-year-old Manohar Nath Chrungo, now has just a few bales on the wooden shelves. A neighbouring shopkeeper, 75-year-old Noor-ul-Hassan, sits next to him. "Are you planning to buy any property," Chrungo asks when The Indian Express inquires about Kashkari family. "There is nothing left. The entire Safriyar locality came under the bridge project." But Chrungu, Hassan and Wani are surprised to hear that we were searching for the roots of a young man who has become news worldwide. "For years, only people interested in buying the property would come. But we are happy to know one of our sons will bring fame to this neglected neighbourhood," says Wani, before joining the other two to figure out how much $700 billion would be in rupees. Neel Kashkari's father Chaman Nath Kashkari left for the US soon after completing his engineering in 1950. "It was a big family with a house right on the banks of the Jhelum," says cousin Sham Lal Kashkari, who now lives in Jammu. "Both his brothers are dead. We have met Neel's father a few times. He used to attend marriages in the family. We haven't seen his children." In fact, Neel Kashkari's uncle Som Nath Kashkari was a known city doctor. Chrungu and Wani, meanwhile, walk towards the bridge. "This is where the house stood," says Chrungo, pointing at an iron electric pole at the river bank a few feet away, the Somyar mandir, one of Srinagar's ancient temples, stands in all its grandeur. It is surrounded by bunkers and spools of barbed wire. "There's no Kashmiri Pandit here. It is just us," shouts a CRPF jawan from behind the sandbags. Link - http://www.indianexpress.com/news/kashkari-family-just-memories-under-a-bridge/370559/2 On 10/10/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > The folks at South Asian Journalists Association (New York) have > rounded up coverage of Neel Kashkari, head of $700B bailout plan, in > US media, and here are some brief excerpts. > > > 1. NYT: "Bailout Role Elevates U.S. Official" by Charlie Savage and Ben > White: > Samuel L. Hayes, an emeritus professor of finance at Harvard Business > School, said Mr. Kashkari will face tremendous pressures. "It's > amazing to me that a guy who is only six years out of business school > has been given this kind of assignment, because it would be an > enormous challenge for someone with 30 years of experience," Mr. Hayes > said. > > > 2. WSJ blogger Heidi N. Moore's post, "What Neel Kashkari Learned in > MBA School": > Since 2006, Kashkari has been one of Paulson's regular advisers, > sharing with his mentor a hairstyle, Midwestern roots, a Goldman > alumni card and even the same taste in popular soft drinks. > > > 3. "Morning Edition" profile on NPR by Yuki Naguchi: > Back in the 1990s, Tom Dautel worked on a team led by Kashkari to > design a solar car called the Photon Torpedo at the University of > Illinois. He says Kashkari worked like a slave, often even on projects > he wasn't directly overseeing. > > > 4. Gilbert Cruz's "Two-minute Bio" of Kashkari in Time.com: > "When he does anything, if you ask him to make an electric car or ask > him to plan an outing to Niagara Falls, he is so meticulous."—Chaman > Kashkari, father, USA Today, October 6, 2008 > > "I'm a free-market Republican."—Kashkari, at an American Enterprise > Institute conference, Sept. 19, 2008 > > > 5. "Rakesh Kaul, a leader in the Kashmiri-American community and > chairman of Spherenomics (he knows the Kashkari family)" on SAJAForum: > "I view Neel's appointment in some ways as even more important than > the signing of the Nuclear deal. It is the final rubber stamp of how > our Indo-American community has achieved acceptance at the highest and > most critical positions in the land. If there is a change in > administration then we should think long and hard and see if Indians > on both the Democratic and Republican side, in a spirit of > bipartisanship, can ensure that he has the support to continue in his > job." > > "Interestingly the name Neel means the color blue but also it stands > for the blue sapphire in Sanskrit and as your readers may well know > the best sapphires in the world came from Kashmir. Finally as a > postscript. To all the Kashmiri Pandits who have been ethnically > cleansed from their land and are suffering either in refugee camps or > have been scattered into environments that are below their dignity and > human potential. Neel is one inspiring story that took two generations > from Kashmir to the US to happen but there will be many others. We > will return back to our homeland from a position of strength, a > strength founded on a 5,000-year culture that can produce a Neel, a > Jawahar, an Abhinav Gupta, a Kalidas and many more!" > > And finally a photo: > > http://sajablogs.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/07/photo_100608_001_2.jpg > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 15:57:54 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:57:54 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 42, Intolrent individuals, tolerent society, that is India.? Message-ID: <820456.49837.qm@web94905.mail.in2.yahoo.com> As I was going thru the posts of this edition, I could not but feel the wave of happenings, intolerence of individuals in a tolerent society that is India. Amrtya Sen, was talking about the argumentative indian in his book, but the list reflects not only argumentas for the sake of arguments, but total lack of tolerence in one guise or the other.!    If there is an encounter, the celebrities come out and show off their intolerence against such happenings. If christians , poor ones are attacked, the intolerence again is on show. If the bhajrang dal is to be discussed, again the same intolerence about the very word.Every individual seems to be intolerent of freedom or right of others in the society  but are very particular about their right to freedom.? How can the freedom be unfettered without the rights of the society is not neglected.? Muslims , most of them are socially aware, politically aware of their rights, but does it mean that whatever a few deviant in the community indulge in is to be ignored.?     Christians mostly are involved in sedate and dignified life, but recent influx of funds from the new life foundation to India, to use for increase in the numerical strength of the community is evident in the social turmoil that is gripping the rural life in many parts of India. Should it not be disciplined by the state of governance. ? A few followers of christian faith, in retaliation were on top of the church roofs, stoning the public, police and all and sundry. The bishop  of Mangalore has had nothing to say about this unruly behaviour of his community.? The bishop of Bangalore in most uncivilised behaviour as messenger and servant of god behaved  with the CM of the state, who had gone to visit him and assure him of all the safety and necessary measures to keep peace.   Bhajrang dal Karnataka chief claimed that his men had destroyed the place of worship, was arrested and still in custody. But what about those who were "retaliating" and injuring the public and police because they were hurt? Even media has shown its intolerence in selective reportage of happenings in Karnataka and Orissa. Killing of 83 year old swami and Yagamaya swamini aged 67 years along with three others in their fag end of life has no importance in news coverage. But "rape" of the nun is important, as it gets more trps and sensations. ?   Then talk of ban on Bhajrang dal, does the system of governance has the courage to take such logical actions and then follow it up sternly? The answer is big no. After banning SIMI, it only transpired that the same SIMI resurfaced in many other hydra headed monsters as indian mujaheedeen, jehadi council, warriors of islam in south India etc. Instead of any sort of ban on SIMI or Bhajrang dal, let the governance be firm in action against any individual who is deviant in society for religion or faith, then the message of communal harmony will be settling better.   Even media seems to be very partisan in coverage of incidents at Orissa, as converted crowds hit back and retaliate, it is peaceful demonstrations and when other tribals retaliate it is communal, bhajrangis.? The individual anchors in news channels are not journalists as they are only celeb anchors doing the mercenary work for their media bosses to garner more trps, then more advertisement revenues.  The entire business of terror is money honey, those who are in it are there only for money, no faith , no idealogies, it is all about power and money, honey.! ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 10 October, 2008 9:47:44 AM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 42 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Asia Journalism Fellowship (Yousuf)   2. 'Encounters', Colombian style (Patrice Riemens)   3. whose terror is worse then? (Javed)   4. Re: New face of terror: Educated and professionals (inder salim)   5. FINANCE: Neel Kashkari/MBA, Soft Drink, Electric Car,    Kashmir       (Naeem Mohaiemen)   6. Re: rants against media and politicisation (Nazneen Anand Shamsi)   7. Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami (Aditya Raj Kaul) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:29:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Yousuf Subject: [Reader-list] Asia Journalism Fellowship To: sarai list ,    Media Watch     ,    x britindia     Message-ID: <361032.45983.qm at web51401..mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Asia Journalism Fellowship The Fellowship brings up to 15 journalists from Asia to Singapore's Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information at Nanyang Technological University for three months. As a Fellow, you will have the opportunity to pursue your intellectual interests together with other accomplished journalists from the region, away from the deadline pressures of your job. The semi-structured programme is designed to sharpen your professional skills and deepen your understanding of trends in media and communication at a time of rapid and sweeping change. It will also provide access to key newsmakers in Singapore's public sector, business community and civil society, giving you insights into the challenges faced by one of Asia's most cosmopolitan hub cities. Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information, NTU The Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information is one of the leading schools of its kind in Asia. It has an enrollment of around 1,000 undergraduate and postgraduate students in fields such as journalism, public relations and knowledge management. Its more than 40 full-time faculty are engaged in diverse research, ranging from media law and censorship, public opinion and health communication, to video game culture and Asian film. The Wee Kim Wee School is also the home of the Asian Media Information and Communication Centre (AMIC), an NGO that spearheads the development of media and communication expertise in Asia within the broad framework of economic, social and cultural development. For more than 30 years, its programmes and publications have crossed the boundaries between academia, media professions and policy makers, allowing those with an interest in communication in Asia to share perspectives, challenges, and best practices. Temasek Foundation The Fellowship is made possible by Temasek Foundation, a non-profit philanthropic organisation anchored in Singapore that seeks to contribute to sustainable growth and a bright future of hope and opportunities for people in Asia. The foundation works with partners to support programmes that develop people through health care, education and research, programmes that build bridges between peoples, programmes that build institutions of excellence through good governance and ethics, and programmes that rebuild lives and livelihoods affected by natural disasters. For more details see: http://www.ajf.sg/index.php       ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:25:24 +0200 (CEST) From: "Patrice Riemens" Subject: [Reader-list] 'Encounters', Colombian style To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <16290.82.233.50.198.1223547924.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Observers have wondered at the speed at which new techniques of torture and repression spread from one conflict area to another, sometimes continents away. I hope I am not contributing to this phenomenon... French daily 'Liberation' reports that in Colombia, the army now abducts destitute civilians in the cities' streets or in the countryside, bus/trucks them a few hunderd miles, and shoot them in staged 'encounters' in order to fatten up the tally of 'guerrillas'/ 'terrorists'/ 'drug dealers' eliminated, and pocket premiums, bonusses and other rewards (one 'ennemy of the state' killed = 5 days furlow). How low can you go? Meanwhile the Colombian govt has ordered inquests "in order to clean up the name of our army". Article in Liberation (in French): http://tinyurl.com/3t9xza ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:52:35 +0530 From: Javed Subject: [Reader-list] whose terror is worse then? To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Bajrang Dal dares govt to ban it 9 Oct 2008, 1330 hrs IST, IANS NEW DELHI: Bajrang Dal, the youth wing of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), has dared the Indian government to ban it, warning that the authorities will face the "consequences" if it was outlawed. "We will fight the ban and we will go to the people to explain the injustice done to us. The elections are coming up soon and it (a ban) will prove costly for the government," Prakash Sharma, national convenor of the Bajrang Dal, said. The Hindu group has in recent weeks been accused of targeting Christians and vandalising churches in Orissa and Karnataka. A far more serious charged hurled at the group in recent times has been making bombs with a view to attack Muslims. Sharma denied that Bajrang Dal members had anything to do with the violence in Orissa, where 35 Christians, mostly poor villagers, have been killed in a series of violent incidents sparked by the gunning down of a Hindu leader. "Bajrang Dal does not believe in violence of any kind. Our aim is ... public agitation by mobilising democratic governments to protect Hindus," Sharma maintained. He accused the media of portraying the Bajrang Dal negatively. "Are newspapers competent enough to tell the truth? They print anything," said Sharma. Besides Muslim organisations, mainstream politicians too have started demanding a ban on the Bajrang Dal, whose members are known to resort to violence at the slightest perceived insult to Hindu religion. Its members often take to the streets brandishing tridents and khukris. Its ideology is virulently anti-Muslim and anti-Christian. Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar is the latest Indian politician to seek a ban on the Bajrang Dal, which takes its name after the Hindu god Hanuman or Bajrang Bali. The group has been linked to a bomb blast in August 2006 at Nanded in Maharashtra where two people were killed. Apparently, its members were making bombs when one or more exploded. A similar incident occurred in August this year in Kanpur. "The person involved in the Kanpur incident used to be with Bajrang Dal 10 years ago. By that analogy, the Congress should also be banned. Their minister ... was caught for the 1993 serial blasts in Surat and now he has been jailed for 20 years," said Sharma. Sharma is unapologetic about the Bajrang Dal's role in "reconversions" in Orissa -- making Hindus who became Christians embrace Hinduism again. "What is reconversion? We are making them return to where they were before. This is 'ghar wapasi' (coming back home), and we are doing it. And it is legal," argued Sharma. Despite talk of banning the Bajrang Dal, the group is planning to launch its silver jubilee celebrations from this month. "There will be 'yagya' and 'havan' in Ayodhya Oct 13. It will be a religious event," Sharma said. The Bajrang Dal, formed in 1984, played a big role in the events leading to the demolition of the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya in December 1992, which led to widespread Hindu-Muslim violence in the country. On Wednesday, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, presiding over a cabinet meeting, said the government needed to have a "foolproof case" if Bajrang Dal needed to be banned. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Bajrang_Dal_dares_govt_to_ban_it/articleshow/3577380.cms ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:21:48 +0530 From: "inder salim" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] New face of terror: Educated and     professionals To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     <47e122a70810090951r6939b6afs45cca14ae34fd0a4 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear Nazo i dont if this is what we call black humour, but  your creative  piece has indeed intensified the unfortunate subject 'New Face of Terror' . i thought of Ronald Barthes who wrote a famous pieces on the Negro Boy in French Uniform in Salute ( image in Paris Match ). it is indeed sad..... and time to ask questions love is On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote: > Dear all, > > To continue the thread of postings and forwards on Jamia and other ghastly > incidents, here's one more. It seems that now, even these 'educated' Muslims > of India, cannot keep their hands of from juvenile adventurism! But the > question we need to ask is, what kind of message does one wants to convey > when one writes 'New face of terror'? Isn't this communal profiling of the > most insidious sort? This report had a photograph of Mumbai police > commissioner Hasan Gafoor, and I was thinking who fits more to the headline? > please see > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/new-face-of-terror-educated-and-professionals/370409/ > > I propose that all educated, professional Muslims of India, particularly > those who live in metros like Delhi or Mumbai, must not let go of this once > in a life time opportunity to avail themselves of this brand. The sikhs had > this opportunity but they sadly missed it, so did the tamils, the naxals, > the manipuris. > > Here are some preliminary suggestions, first and foremost, push an > application to patent this brand, 'Terrorist'. Then a logical step must be > taken to franchise it. The organization must be strictly not-for-prophet > (ooops! profit) of course! > > Introducing brand TERRORIST > sign: T > attributes: educated, muslim > rewards to be associated with this brand: immediate visibility, TV > interviews, documentaries on life, mobility, social acceptance > psychological attributes: loyalty, committed, devoted, unflinching, can take > challenges, flexibility in work. > > 'T' > > Franchise: Terrorist cafes, Terrorist Bars, Terrorist Pubs, Terrorist > T-shirts, Terrorist condoms, Terrorist cups, Terrorist glasses, Terrorist > bindis, Terrorist saries and Terrorist bangles, Terrorist bras and panties. > There must be a Terrorist drink too. For children, it must milk with Nutmeg > or Jaiphal to induce immediate hallucination for adults it must be one shot > of Chardonnay with one shot of Vodka and two shots of beer with egg yolk, to > be taken in one gulp! > > > The Terrorist Anthem must go like: > > Mazhab nahi sikata aapas main bair rakhna > Terrorist hain hum > Watan Hai hindu-sthaan hamara hamara > Saare Jahan se accha... > > The Terrorist prayer must go like: > > Lab pe aati hai dua ban ke tammanna mere > ho mere kam zaifoon ki, dardmando ki khidtmat karna > Ilm ki shamma se ho mujhko muhabbat ya rab > > Mere allah burai se bachana mujhko > TERRORIST ki joh rah hai us reh pe chala mujhko > > > > There must be a Terrorist Academy also to train Dj's, Nurses, Waiters, > Graphic artists etc basically to supply labor to a burgeoning market created > by this brand. The prime consumer would be of course GOI. > > I don't think SRK will have any problem endorsing it. The ad will go like- > > First sequence- SRK is a middle class boy is sitting in front of a computer. > Searching for work.. You know pushing employment applications. In the > background one can see trophies lined up on the wall. The search goes on. > The computer screen blinks -sorry no vacancy-. > > Second sequence- SRK is sitting dejected on the sea front in Bombay with his > girl friend. Conversation ensues- > > SRK: No jobs. They don't want me. (Looks dejected. Head bows down. Soft > breeze is hitting his face, throwing his hair to the wind) > Girlfirend: Don't worry (Places her hand on his shoulder. Looks far into the > ocean) > SRK: What will happen? When will I find my job? When will I marry you. (SRK > is almost in tears now) > Girlfriend: Wait a minute! In the Job application what do you write? > SRK: What do you mean? What do I write. > Girlfirend: (has got a glint in her eyes) No no it is important. VERY > IMPORTANT. Do you mention that you are a muslim. > SRK: No of course not. I am educated. What has my religion got to do with > this? > Girlfirend: Arre ghantu!  You are an educated Muslim. Don't you see you are > a TERRORIST. You are not like those Ram sunders  or Vinod sharma's. > SRK: Amina, I love you! You are my darling. (hugs her) > > Next shot: > > SRK: (Sitting in front of computer filing a job application. Typing his > religion also) Muslim. Terrorist. > Compter screen: Congratulations! You got a Job. > > SRK: (PUNCH LINE) SRK is wearing a white lenin shirt with blue jean. He is > facing the camera and an office acts as a backdrop. > > If you are educated and a muslim. you are not an educated muslim. (SRK > smiles) > > You are a Terrorist! (SRK smiles) > > DON'T EVER FORGET THAT. (Close up shot of SRK's Mouth when he says this > line) > > > > Regards > > Nazo > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:59:20 +0600 From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Neel Kashkari/MBA, Soft Drink,     Electric Car,    Kashmir To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" The folks at South Asian Journalists Association (New York) have rounded up coverage of Neel Kashkari, head of $700B bailout plan, in US media, and here are some brief excerpts. 1. NYT: "Bailout Role Elevates U.S. Official" by Charlie Savage and Ben White: Samuel L. Hayes, an emeritus professor of finance at Harvard Business School, said Mr. Kashkari will face tremendous pressures. "It's amazing to me that a guy who is only six years out of business school has been given this kind of assignment, because it would be an enormous challenge for someone with 30 years of experience," Mr. Hayes said. 2. WSJ blogger Heidi N. Moore's post, "What Neel Kashkari Learned in MBA School": Since 2006, Kashkari has been one of Paulson's regular advisers, sharing with his mentor a hairstyle, Midwestern roots, a Goldman alumni card and even the same taste in popular soft drinks. 3. "Morning Edition" profile on NPR by Yuki Naguchi: Back in the 1990s, Tom Dautel worked on a team led by Kashkari to design a solar car called the Photon Torpedo at the University of Illinois. He says Kashkari worked like a slave, often even on projects he wasn't directly overseeing. 4. Gilbert Cruz's "Two-minute Bio" of Kashkari in Time.com: "When he does anything, if you ask him to make an electric car or ask him to plan an outing to Niagara Falls, he is so meticulous."—Chaman Kashkari, father, USA Today, October 6, 2008 "I'm a free-market Republican."—Kashkari, at an American Enterprise Institute conference, Sept. 19, 2008 5. "Rakesh Kaul, a leader in the Kashmiri-American community and chairman of Spherenomics (he knows the Kashkari family)" on SAJAForum: "I view Neel's appointment in some ways as even more important than the signing of the Nuclear deal. It is the final rubber stamp of how our Indo-American community has achieved acceptance at the highest and most critical positions in the land. If there is a change in administration then we should think long and hard and see if Indians on both the Democratic and Republican side, in a spirit of bipartisanship, can ensure that he has the support to continue in his job." "Interestingly the name Neel means the color blue but also it stands for the blue sapphire in Sanskrit and as your readers may well know the best sapphires in the world came from Kashmir. Finally as a postscript. To all the Kashmiri Pandits who have been ethnically cleansed from their land and are suffering either in refugee camps or have been scattered into environments that are below their dignity and human potential. Neel is one inspiring story that took two generations from Kashmir to the US to happen but there will be many others. We will return back to our homeland from a position of strength, a strength founded on a 5,000-year culture that can produce a Neel, a Jawahar, an Abhinav Gupta, a Kalidas and many more!" And finally a photo: http://sajablogs.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/07/photo_100608_001_2.jpg ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:56:37 +0100 From: "Nazneen Anand Shamsi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation To: "mahmood farooqui" Cc: sarai list Message-ID:     <169ff67c0810091756t40d5882fvdb9bd9ded0a0d1b1 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear Mahmood, Thank you for replying to suggestion. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM, mahmood farooqui wrote: Good idea. But tell me a little bit about your ancestry first, not necessarily biological Pray, I wonder. What's my ancestry got to do with anything I write. I may be to a kam jaat born for all you know! I am sorry I cannot contribute to your Project Genealogy! By the way, despite all your Rhodes education and your warm latkas and jhatkas as a dastan go, your perhaps well meaning and innocuous question betray a deep rooted and a banal male castiest anxiety about strangers, something  which I absolutely loathe among Indians, a la ' Kaun Jaat ', if you may. Warm regards Nazo PS: I am sorry but please don't be upset to see this reply on the reader list. it's just that i have a pathological allergy to unnecessary personal conversations. You may have noticed that I have had this conversation with other list members too, in the past. I have joined this esteemed online community to engage in a public dialogue only! I hope that is not an issue with you. And despite all the respect that I have and Will always have for the exemplary work that you are doing to revive an ancient art form of storytelling, I think I deserve an apology, to be considered as a deserving recipient to this most disgusting question, which I, in my humble opinion, think, does not fit well to the public persona that you have so carefully crafted. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM, mahmood farooqui wrote: > Good idea. But tell me a little bit about your ancestry first, not > necessarily biological > > 2008/10/9 Nazneen Anand Shamsi > > Yes. There is. >> >> How about a dastan goi performance on Jamia and other stories, with >> Aamir Hamza as a terrorist/storyteller. Retelling of the present as >> fantastic history. >> >> N >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation >> mahmood farooqui mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com >> Wed Oct 8 22:36:48 IST 2008 >> >>    * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE >> journals until October 31, 2008 >>    * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >> >> >> >> Politicisation of an issue=dirty, partisan play by political parties. >> >> Play by political parties=realm of social, political negotiation=openly >> roughing it out=mob political culture=civil war with a bumbling >> authoritarian state >> >> Is that news >> >> Is there another way >> >>    * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE >> journals until October 31, 2008 >>    * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >> >> More information about the reader-list mailing list >> > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:47:35 +0530 From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal security and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have been missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise their 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came out in today's newspaper. Love Aditya Raj Kaul *Behind the Batla House shootout * Praveen Swami * Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. * "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, "I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent students, not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators and politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some reason, though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell the tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient honest officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, mundane. When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat where he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It turned out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the perpetrators between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and July 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became active again in Ahmedabad. The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the Ahmedabad bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — the sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after this, a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope that he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad left Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector Sharma was asked to settle the issue. 'Vodaphone salesman' Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up the stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and called his boss. According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the two men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped corridor which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as they entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, combat tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla House-style operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their resources and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two directions.. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting through the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted with Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's shirt was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, too, is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have been driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that there is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi violence; a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. Much political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit in which the lies have bred. *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm * ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 42 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 19:05:46 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:05:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810080744m1f4a6c46u29ed89d74fd9b75a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810080744m1f4a6c46u29ed89d74fd9b75a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810100635h498ca62p47b74f85bd72522d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:14 PM, inder salim wrote: > thanks for forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily > news papers all over the world. > > i remember a Wim Wenders ( i dont remember the title of the film ), > wherein a middle class man kills his wife, his child, a neighbor, and > finally himself. That was quite profound as far as my understanding of > cinema is considered. The reason for the action was triggered almost > by nothing. The victim-cum-murderer was not a interactive person, and > would easily lapse into some incoherence while speaking to friends in > a party. He was a draftsman working in the office an architect's firm. > Drawing lines on sheets all the day. one can interpret his job of > drawing lines in many ways... > > I dont know how to describe actions like these, because the present > ways of living can drive a man into some depression. Chasing a dream > can land a person into a strange unpredictable domain, which instantly > gives her/him an alien look. > > Just a couple of moment ago, he was just one like us, this is how > friends/relatives think after hearing about such a thing..... ,but the > quantum of flux hidden inside a person is difficult to fathom. We were > perhaps never in a position to judge the other. Our own beings too > can devastate/transform a so called smooth living in a fraction of a > second. No one to blame. The desire has an abstract face too, which > are not familiar with. We are always, perhaps, trying to know its > form, texture and meaning . But the element of chaos hidden inside us > perplexes us all the time. > > Some one said, Kartik Rajaram was a HAPPY GO LUCKY person, but then > how many amongst are like that. I feel most of times we are surrounded > by situations which are simply meant for fun. > > I dont if some psychoanalytic treatment could have helped him out > the situation. He had perhaps, lost some necessary grains in his > brains. or had replaced them with some other cells which are alien to > us right now. > > Only 'Americanism' is not the culprit. > > love > is > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen > wrote: >> Father kills family and himself, despondent over financial losses >> By Richard Winton, Evelyn Larrubia and Kimi Yoshino >> Los Angeles Times >> October 7, 2008 >> http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-porterranch7-2008oct07,0,523407,full.story >> >> Karthik Rajaram was found dead in his Porter Ranch home along with his >> wife, mother-in-law and 3 sons. Neighbors and coworkers say he was a >> loving father, but 'very intense' and at times unstable. >> >> Karthik Rajaram had fallen hard. >> >> The 45-year-old Porter Ranch financial manager who once made more than >> $1.2 million in a London-based venture fund had lost his job. His luck >> playing the stock market ran out. >> >> On Sept. 16, he bought a gun. He wrote two suicide notes and a last >> will and testament. And then, sometime between Saturday night and >> Monday morning, he killed his wife, mother-in-law and three sons, and >> took his own life. >> >> "This is a perfect American family behind me that has absolutely been >> destroyed, apparently because of a man who just got stuck in a rabbit >> hole, if you will, of absolute despair, somehow working his way into >> believing this to be an acceptable exit," said LAPD Deputy Chief >> Michel Moore. "It is critical to step up and recognize we are in some >> pretty troubled times." >> >> In a letter addressed to police, Rajaram blamed his actions on >> economic hardships. A second letter, labeled "personal and >> confidential," was addressed to family friends; the third contained a >> last will and testament, Moore said. >> >> The letter to police voiced two options: taking his own life, or >> killing himself and his entire family. "He talked himself into the >> second strategy," Moore said. "That that would be the honorable thing >> to do." >> >> Authorities believe Rajaram killed his family and himself after seeing >> his finances wiped out by the stock market collapse, according to a >> source familiar with the case, who spoke on condition of anonymity >> because the investigation is ongoing. >> >> Concern about the family's welfare began Monday morning when Rajaram's >> wife, 39-year-old Subasri, did not show up for her carpool. Friends >> went to the house in the 20600 block of Como Lane, only to find it >> strangely quiet. The morning newspaper lay in the frontyard. The >> family's two cars, a Suburban and a Lexus SUV, were parked in the >> driveway. >> >> When police entered the home in the gated, Spanish-style community, >> they first found the gunman's mother-in-law, Indra Ramasesham, 69, >> dead in a downstairs bedroom. His wife and three sons -- Krishna, 19, >> a sophomore at UCLA majoring in business economics; Ganesha, 12; and >> Arjuna, 7, all named after Indian gods and warriors -- were discovered >> in various upstairs bedrooms, all shot in the head, some with multiple >> gunshot wounds. >> >> Their father was found dead in a bedroom with Ganesha and Arjuna, the >> gun still in his hand, police said. >> >> The Rajarams had lived in the upscale Sorrento neighborhood of Porter >> Ranch for a couple years in a 2,800-square-foot rented house. The >> landlords, another Indian couple, said that the family paid their rent >> on time and that there were no indications of trouble. >> >> Neighbors in the Northridge neighborhood where the family previously >> lived said they were well-liked and enjoyed entertaining guests. >> Except for one night when residents heard a man screaming for hours, >> the family seemed content for the nine years they lived there. >> >> "He loved those kids more than any man I've seen love his sons," said >> next-door neighbor Sue Karns. >> >> But Karthik Rajaram, who held an MBA from UCLA, was a hard-driving >> businessman. He was involved in several financial ventures. Between >> his home sale and another lucrative investment, he should have had a >> pile of cash. >> >> A 2001 article in The Daily Telegraph of London, under the headline >> "Bust, but big bucks for the big boys," called Rajaram a "winner" in a >> deal for NanoUniverse, a Los Angeles- and London-based venture fund >> taken public on the London Stock Exchange. >> >> For a 12,500-pound investment, Rajaram, one of the company's founders, >> received 875,000 pounds -- or about $1.2 million in 2001 dollars -- >> after a voluntary liquidation, the newspaper reported. >> >> He also sold his house in 2006, a calculated decision even though his >> wife, a bookkeeper at a pharmacy, did not want to move, their former >> neighbors said. >> >> He sold the house for $750,000, making a sizable profit on a home the >> couple purchased in 1997 for $274,000. >> >> "The market was going down and he wanted to get out before the bottom >> dropped out," Karns said. "I talked to him last December and he said, >> 'I feel I did a good thing by selling when I did.' " >> >> It is unclear how Rajaram invested the cash since then and how he lost it. >> >> In 2003 and 2004, he worked for Greg Robinson, an entrepreneur and >> founder of several companies, at Azur Partners LLC, a management >> consulting agency. >> >> Robinson said he was forced to fire Rajaram because "his life wasn't >> moving in the right direction." >> >> "He had some behavioral problems," Robinson said. "He wasn't reliable. >> . . . He was not an emotionally stable person. It was a real problem >> and would affect any business he was involved in." >> >> The two had also worked together in the Century City office of >> PriceWaterhouseCoopers and Robinson recalled Rajaram as being "a very >> smart guy," who he believed posted a perfect score on his business >> school entrance exam. >> >> Although Karns and her husband said they liked Karthik Rajaram and >> were stunned by the news, they said he was "very high-strung, very >> intense." >> >> "The man was never relaxed," Sue Karns said. >> >> In the Porter Ranch neighborhood, next-door neighbor Kinda Almukaddem >> said she had rarely spoken to the family since they moved in a couple >> of years ago. But in the last two weeks, Karthik Rajaram visited her >> twice asking whether she would be home this past weekend. He urged her >> to keep her side windows shut because he had heard of burglaries in >> the area. >> >> Rajaram seemed nervous -- shaking, pacing and taking notes on a >> notepad as he spoke to her, she said. >> >> "He noticed my side windows were open, the side that my house shares >> with him," she said. "Now, come to think of it, I think he was trying >> to have me close my windows on that side so I wouldn't hear anything." >> >> Police said nobody reported hearing gunshots or anything out of the ordinary. >> >> But on Monday, the neighborhood was far from normal, with police >> leading convoys of media into the gated community. Children at nearby >> Alfred B. Nobel Middle School, where 12-year-old Ganesha Rajaram was a >> seventh-grade honors student, were sent home with notes informing >> their parents of the news. >> >> "This one will shake people to the core," Principal Robert Coburn >> said. "When you think about it, all kids have a mom and dad. And if a >> father can do this to his kids, it's very scary." >> >> richard.winton at latimes.com >> evelyn.larrubia at latimes.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Fri Oct 10 19:07:54 2008 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 6th World Day Against Death Penalty In India, Delhi: A Report Message-ID: <257611.68456.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> 6th World Day Against Death Penalty In India: A Report 10th October 2008 On the World Day against Death Penalty, Amnesty International India called on all citizens around the world to take action to end executions in Asia and called upon India, South Korea and Taiwan to join the global trend and establish a moratorium on the death penalty immediately. Amnesty International believes that the death penalty violates the right to life, has no deterrent effect on crime and has no place in a modern criminal justice system. Justice without death penalty is possible. On 10th October 2008 at 10.30 a.m. Amnesty International India observed the 6th World Day against Death Penalty through a stunt in the high security area near India Gate in front of a large crowd and impressive presence of media. Five Amnesty members/stuntmen performed with an imposing hanging post to create a visual protest against death penalty in India. They wore black hoods and sported a noose around their necks and carried a larger than life hanging post with them. This was staged along with an interactive session on Death Penalty with the interested gatherers and media persons. This went on for a while till Police intervened and seized the hanging post, nooses and detained four Amnesty International India stuntmen at the Tilak Marg Police Station. AI India has launched a countrywide campaign involving a wide range of activities, including stunts, protests, seminars, film screenings, making of rangolis depicting symbols and slogans against death penalty. The activities were carried out in at least 23 places across the country. Earlier, in December 2007, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution, ‘Moratorium on Death Penalty’ by an overwhelming majority. This year Amnesty International India asked Asian leaders to take steps towards making this a reality. The organization has recorded at least 1252 executions in 24 countries in 2007 with at least 3347 people sentenced to death in 51 countries. Unfortunately, the balance of nature decrees that a super-abundance of dreams is paid for by a growing potential for nightmares. Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit. Peter Ustinov From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 19:32:22 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:32:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] New face of terror: Educated and professionals In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810090951r6939b6afs45cca14ae34fd0a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810070720x332b415bo14d03bda2888b8c3@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810090951r6939b6afs45cca14ae34fd0a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810100702u4a003a1p2641493d46595fea@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:21 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Nazo > > i dont if this is what we call black humour, but your creative piece > has indeed intensified the unfortunate subject 'New Face of Terror' . > > i thought of Ronald Barthes who wrote a famous pieces on the Negro Boy > in French Uniform in Salute ( image in Paris Match ). > > it is indeed sad..... and time to ask questions > > love > is > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi > wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> To continue the thread of postings and forwards on Jamia and other ghastly >> incidents, here's one more. It seems that now, even these 'educated' Muslims >> of India, cannot keep their hands of from juvenile adventurism! But the >> question we need to ask is, what kind of message does one wants to convey >> when one writes 'New face of terror'? Isn't this communal profiling of the >> most insidious sort? This report had a photograph of Mumbai police >> commissioner Hasan Gafoor, and I was thinking who fits more to the headline? >> please see >> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/new-face-of-terror-educated-and-professionals/370409/ >> >> I propose that all educated, professional Muslims of India, particularly >> those who live in metros like Delhi or Mumbai, must not let go of this once >> in a life time opportunity to avail themselves of this brand. The sikhs had >> this opportunity but they sadly missed it, so did the tamils, the naxals, >> the manipuris. >> >> Here are some preliminary suggestions, first and foremost, push an >> application to patent this brand, 'Terrorist'. Then a logical step must be >> taken to franchise it. The organization must be strictly not-for-prophet >> (ooops! profit) of course! >> >> Introducing brand TERRORIST >> sign: T >> attributes: educated, muslim >> rewards to be associated with this brand: immediate visibility, TV >> interviews, documentaries on life, mobility, social acceptance >> psychological attributes: loyalty, committed, devoted, unflinching, can take >> challenges, flexibility in work. >> >> 'T' >> >> Franchise: Terrorist cafes, Terrorist Bars, Terrorist Pubs, Terrorist >> T-shirts, Terrorist condoms, Terrorist cups, Terrorist glasses, Terrorist >> bindis, Terrorist saries and Terrorist bangles, Terrorist bras and panties. >> There must be a Terrorist drink too. For children, it must milk with Nutmeg >> or Jaiphal to induce immediate hallucination for adults it must be one shot >> of Chardonnay with one shot of Vodka and two shots of beer with egg yolk, to >> be taken in one gulp! >> >> >> The Terrorist Anthem must go like: >> >> Mazhab nahi sikata aapas main bair rakhna >> Terrorist hain hum >> Watan Hai hindu-sthaan hamara hamara >> Saare Jahan se accha... >> >> The Terrorist prayer must go like: >> >> Lab pe aati hai dua ban ke tammanna mere >> ho mere kam zaifoon ki, dardmando ki khidtmat karna >> Ilm ki shamma se ho mujhko muhabbat ya rab >> >> Mere allah burai se bachana mujhko >> TERRORIST ki joh rah hai us reh pe chala mujhko >> >> >> >> There must be a Terrorist Academy also to train Dj's, Nurses, Waiters, >> Graphic artists etc basically to supply labor to a burgeoning market created >> by this brand. The prime consumer would be of course GOI. >> >> I don't think SRK will have any problem endorsing it. The ad will go like- >> >> First sequence- SRK is a middle class boy is sitting in front of a computer. >> Searching for work. You know pushing employment applications. In the >> background one can see trophies lined up on the wall. The search goes on. >> The computer screen blinks -sorry no vacancy-. >> >> Second sequence- SRK is sitting dejected on the sea front in Bombay with his >> girl friend. Conversation ensues- >> >> SRK: No jobs. They don't want me. (Looks dejected. Head bows down. Soft >> breeze is hitting his face, throwing his hair to the wind) >> Girlfirend: Don't worry (Places her hand on his shoulder. Looks far into the >> ocean) >> SRK: What will happen? When will I find my job? When will I marry you. (SRK >> is almost in tears now) >> Girlfriend: Wait a minute! In the Job application what do you write? >> SRK: What do you mean? What do I write. >> Girlfirend: (has got a glint in her eyes) No no it is important. VERY >> IMPORTANT. Do you mention that you are a muslim. >> SRK: No of course not. I am educated. What has my religion got to do with >> this? >> Girlfirend: Arre ghantu! You are an educated Muslim. Don't you see you are >> a TERRORIST. You are not like those Ram sunders or Vinod sharma's. >> SRK: Amina, I love you! You are my darling. (hugs her) >> >> Next shot: >> >> SRK: (Sitting in front of computer filing a job application. Typing his >> religion also) Muslim. Terrorist. >> Compter screen: Congratulations! You got a Job. >> >> SRK: (PUNCH LINE) SRK is wearing a white lenin shirt with blue jean. He is >> facing the camera and an office acts as a backdrop. >> >> If you are educated and a muslim. you are not an educated muslim. (SRK >> smiles) >> >> You are a Terrorist! (SRK smiles) >> >> DON'T EVER FORGET THAT. (Close up shot of SRK's Mouth when he says this >> line) >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> Nazo >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From turbulence at turbulence.org Wed Oct 8 23:16:24 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:46:24 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence Commission: "Touching Gravity 2/Tilt" by Caryn Heilman Message-ID: <001801c9296d$c98c29b0$5ca47d10$@org> October 8, 2008 Turbulence Commission: "Touching Gravity 2/Tilt" by Caryn Heilman (LiquidBody MediaDance), with music by Nana Simopoulos http://turbulence.org/works/touching_gravity Needs Flash player and core duo Mac or PC "Touching Gravity 2/Tilt" is an interactive, aerial videodance superimposed on a composited image of two rivers in the towns of North Adams and Adams, Massachusetts. Part of the "Networked Realities: (Re)Connecting the Adamses" project, the two New England towns are (re)connected through a colorful, fluid, multilayered dance that incorporates the movement of the natural landscape from each town, seen through the "difference" blend mode of the Flash interface. Users can create and save their own versions of the dance by determining the order and timing of five different clips. Periodically, additional clips will be added so that both the dance and the user experience may evolve. Composer and instrumentalist Nana Simopoulos has contributed five tracks to accompany the five dance clips; each piece is played on a single instrument representing a different continent. Together, they form a single composition that is layered over the sounds of the two rivers, providing the listener with the ability to remix the musical textures. "Touching Gravity 2/Tilt" is part of the larger project "Networked Realities: (Re)Connecting the Adamses" -- a collaboration between Greylock Arts and Turbulence.org -- that includes four commissioned networked art works that will all eventually be housed on the commissioned website www.newadams.es. "Touching Gravity 2/Tilt" will also be part of an interactive, site-specific series at Topia Arts Center (Adams) that looks at the idea of tilting angles of perception to reveal new possibilities. "Touching Gravity 2/Tilt" is a 2008 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., (aka Ether-Ore) for its Turbulence web site. It was made possible with funding from the Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts. Additional support was provided by Frank and Barbara Peters through the Medici Circle award at the University of California at Irvine. BIOGRAPHIES Caryn Heilman danced for the Paul Taylor Dance Company for ten years before founding her own company, LiquidBody media, movement and dance. With PTDC, she performed on the world's most prestigious stages and acted as a cultural ambassador for the United States in India, China, Turkey, Hungary and Japan. She is featured in the Emmy-nominated documentary film, Dancemaker. With LiquidBody, performance highlights include Jacob's Pillow, MA; Dixon Place, NY; amphitheaters in Greece; a spa in Italy; and the Electronic Festival in Warsaw, Poland. Having received a foundation of choreographic tutelage from Paul Taylor - a master of American Modern Dance -- Caryn is diving into more experimental territory, focusing on the fluid systems of the body and choreographic structures that include audience interaction, multimedia, live music and aerial dance. Caryn has received scholarships from the American Dance Festival, Alvin Ailey and is currently on fellowship at the University of California at Irvine completing her MFA in Dance and Technology. For the past three years, she served on the Professional Advisory Committee of the Dance Notation Bureau. LiquidBody's second home is in the Northern Berkshires in Adams, MA where Caryn is Artistic Director of Topia Arts Center, a green arts and education center in development. Nana Simopoulos draws her music's melodic color from the map of world cultures. She artfully blends sounds and textures from around the world. Indian sarangi master Ustad Sultan Khan accompanies her on her last two releases, "After The Moon" and "Daughters Of The Sun" (Na Records), #1 on the NAV New Age and World radio charts. Nana's first album, "Pandora's Blues," won critic's choice from DOWNBEAT Magazine. Nana has been commissioned by numerous dance companies, such as Joffrey Ballet, American Dance Festival, Ballet Hispanico, North Carolina Dance Theater; and by former Pilobolus choreographer Peter Pucci. She has also written for film and theater, including "An Absolute Mystery," which premiered at La Mama, and "American Dreams, Lost and Found." For more Turbulence commissions, please visit http://turbulence.org. Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 20:24:59 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:24:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] J &K painting poetry at Habitate Message-ID: <47e122a70810100754x4cc2f26cp472d6d29b25ceb1a@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Dear All are invited to join. Strains of the Himalayan Spirit. event initiated by Keshav Malik (Paintings and Poetry from J&K) India Habitat Centre On 12th oct 5.7 pm Heart Has Its Reasons Why a motley gathering of art works and poetic voices? Because this fraternity of the pursuers of the creative arts-- from the divine flute playing Jammu and those from the blessed Vale-- have not yet drawn a line around their hearts so clearly; because its impossible to tell where one begins and where one ends; and because its hard to say 'no' to love. Oh yes the truer among the artist community know by instinct that all parts of the universe are interwoven with one another and that the bond is sacred. The muses instruct them that to be enlightened is to remove the barriers between self and self. Indeed to be creative is to forget the self. Now, though this event is modest, a mere flash in the pan, yet the sufferings, the pangs and sorrows in our own region, as indeed in several corners of this great and vast country, has spurred us to a moment of communion, so that the clairvoyant vision of an ancient culture finally once again shines forth in the robes of glory. Surely, a tall talk without a foundation! But then, that is how fresh beginnings ever are, no matter on shoestrings. All intent on the learning of the creative imagination have a stake in an eternal enterprise: to be free from stupidity, from prejudice, from parochialism, and to be enabled to think and feel for oneself. It is precisely this sort of freedom that has empowered human beings. Sagacity about life, as search for meaning, and fraternity, - - all these are a part of ancient wisdom - - that way alone lies reality. The other way lies the abyss and the shattered image of the Buddha of compassion. The 'learnings' of the heart, let us remember, are enjoined by all who live by the law above all laws. Let us also remember that the artists of the peak order are people whose vocation is to see as much as possible, to see the whole of things rather than their division into categories; they are attuned to wholeness, they believe it is necessary for humans to be proponent over the passing appearances. Artists, of this order grasp this very truth if only by synoptic and symbolic signs, attending to minute particulars. Still, we would not wish to romanticize the figure of the artist. Art is a quest for order and sanity undertaken by people who can at moments themselves be disorderly and perhaps not even lovable. Mercifully, art itself is greater than the sum of the artists. To create voices in the viewers or listeners, images in the mind's eye, imaginary presences with lives of their own, requires much self awareness and self denial - - modesty even - - fascination with a vision with a life of its own, quite independent of its maker and his noisy ego. But this is not an image of the artist that comes easily in an age of personalities, celebrities, show-biz and self promotion, when people are less interested in the work of art than in what is in it for them. So, counterfeit art is always with us. And one sad thing more, that in fact some sort of cultural 'progress' itself now is founded on barbarism. Art in our own times may indeed fail to humanize, and in fact subvert the humane; it may completely forget the actual immediacies of human and social circumstance. So that such art can become too rarified, and aesthetes are deficient in compassion. But the truer artist even while exclusively responding to the order in a work of art, will yet at the same time never be inattentive to, or passive in the face of the reality of injustice, of enslavements, of massacres. Thus, even when the arts must retain their highest standards at any cost, yet they must not remain merely content addressing themselves to the privileged few. The 'masses', though they are liable to be easily swayed by base or blind emotions, could nevertheless, by the artists' labours, be turned into reflective, inward looking individual persons. All in all, we sincerely believe that the arts are the highest expression of the human spirit: and that we humans yearn to transcend the merely ephemeral, and to participate in something mysterious and shared called 'culture' and that this yearning is as strong in the human species as the yearning to reproduce the species. Even through the local, or the regional, (e.g. Ladakh, Jammu and Kashmir) individual expressions and voices are aimed to create works that speak, to fellow humans who know nothing of them. In their very obliqueness to one another, an unexpected intimacy and fraternity can nevertheless be born, that sign of deep affection for the mortals of one and the same earth. The individual voice, then, is the voice of the whole community. The regional voice, the universal voice. Let us therefore bless all mortals. Did not the seers of the Himalayas teach exactly that? KESHAV MALIK -- From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 21:06:06 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:06:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0810091756t40d5882fvdb9bd9ded0a0d1b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0810081311r6f06063cyda951d33c9df36ec@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0810091756t40d5882fvdb9bd9ded0a0d1b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Nazo. I just wanted to probe your deep anxiety about the personal. I do believe in caste. I am also doing exemplary work in other fields but I am deeply dissatisfied with the examples that abound. My public persona is best crafted after sundown. And since Zaat, in the sense that you use it, is about biological ancestry, you should go back to my original question. I am not interested in it. But it is good to pique my interest. 2008/10/10 Nazneen Anand Shamsi > Dear Mahmood, > > Thank you for replying to suggestion. > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM, mahmood farooqui < > mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com> wrote: > > Good idea. But tell me a little bit about your ancestry first, not > necessarily biological > > > Pray, I wonder. What's my ancestry got to do with anything I write. I may > be to a kam jaat born for all you know! I am sorry I cannot contribute to > your Project Genealogy! > > By the way, despite all your Rhodes education and your warm latkas and > jhatkas as a dastan go, your perhaps well meaning and innocuous question > betray a deep rooted and a banal male castiest anxiety about strangers, > something which I absolutely loathe among Indians, a la ' Kaun Jaat ', if > you may. > > Warm regards > > Nazo > > PS: I am sorry but please don't be upset to see this reply on the reader > list. it's just that i have a pathological allergy to unnecessary personal > conversations. You may have noticed that I have had this conversation with > other list members too, in the past. I have joined this esteemed online > community to engage in a public dialogue only! I hope that is not an issue > with you. And despite all the respect that I have and Will always have for > the exemplary work that you are doing to revive an ancient art form of > storytelling, I think I deserve an apology, to be considered as a deserving > recipient to this most disgusting question, which I, in my humble opinion, > think, does not fit well to the public persona that you have so carefully > crafted. > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM, mahmood farooqui < > mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Good idea. But tell me a little bit about your ancestry first, not >> necessarily biological >> >> 2008/10/9 Nazneen Anand Shamsi >> >> Yes. There is. >>> >>> How about a dastan goi performance on Jamia and other stories, with >>> Aamir Hamza as a terrorist/storyteller. Retelling of the present as >>> fantastic history. >>> >>> N >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [Reader-list] rants against media and politicisation >>> mahmood farooqui mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com >>> Wed Oct 8 22:36:48 IST 2008 >>> >>> * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE >>> journals until October 31, 2008 >>> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >>> >>> >>> >>> Politicisation of an issue=dirty, partisan play by political parties. >>> >>> Play by political parties=realm of social, political negotiation=openly >>> roughing it out=mob political culture=civil war with a bumbling >>> authoritarian state >>> >>> Is that news >>> >>> Is there another way >>> >>> * Previous message: [Reader-list] Fwd: Online access to all SAGE >>> journals until October 31, 2008 >>> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >>> >>> More information about the reader-list mailing list >>> >> >> > From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 10:37:28 2008 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:07:28 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Army Officers In Civillian Administration Message-ID: BANGLADESH: Military must not dominate civil administration A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission BANGLADESH: Military must not dominate civil administration The government of Bangladesh has directed its civil administration to work in collaboration with the officers of the "Joint Forces" stationed across the country. The government made the decision on August 25, after having reshuffled its administration by appointing 35 new Deputy Commissioners (DCs), the apex bureaucratic authorities in the district administrations. The government briefed the media on its policies on the proposed local and general elections, implementation and monitoring mechanisms and emphasized the need for friendly relations with the local people. Cabinet Division Secretary Mr. Ali Imam Mazumdar chairing the meeting on 25 August directed the officers to work together with the SPs (Superintendents of Police) and the commanders of the Join Forces across the country. The direction to the administrators asserting collaboration with the Joint Forces which comprises of officers of the armed forces and which is dominated by the army, practically renders the civil administration officials subordinate to the army. It also generates multiple suspicions regarding the government motives behind such controversial directives. This adds to the already adopted government policy of placing the armed forces over the civil administration. This is a small picture of the ongoing disaster in the governance in Bangladesh. Here are some facts: The Ministry of Home Affairs is headed by Major General (Retired) M A Matin. Major General (retired) Ghulam Quader, former director general of National Security Intelligence, has been made adviser to the Ministry of Communications. Brigadier General (Retired) M A Malek is the Special Assistant to the Chief Adviser for Ministries of Social Welfare and Telecommunications Founding Director General of the Rapid Action Battalion, allegedly the arbiter of hundreds of extra judicial killings, and former head of the Bangladesh Police Mr. Anwarul Iqbal has grabbed the position of the adviser to the Ministry of Local Government, Rural Development and Cooperatives. Another Major General (retired), ASM Matiur Rahman previously occupying the Ministry of Health was later asked to resign from his position for poor performance. Immediate past army chief Lt. Gen. (Retired) Hassan Mashud Chowdhury is the chairperson of the Anti Corruption Commission while Colonel Mr. Hanif Iqbal occupies the position of Director General (Administration). Brigadier General (Retired) Muhammad Sakhawat Hussain is in the constitutional position of Commissioner of the Election Commission. Bangladesh Army has been given official responsibility to prepare the voter list for the whole country. The army deputed its Principal Staff Officer (PSO) of Armed Forces Division Lieutenant General Masud Uddin Chowdhury to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs when he had been serving as the Chief Coordinator of the National Coordination Committee for deciding the corruption cases. Major General (retd) Manzurul Alam chairs Bangladesh Telecommunication Regulatory Commission while Colonel Md. Saiful Islam takes the position of the Director General and Lieutenant Colonel Shahidul Alam is the Director of its Spectrum Management Department. Lieutenant Colonel Shahidul Alam is the Project Director of a World Bank funded project while Major Rakibul Hassan is a Deputy Director of its Systems & Services Department. Captain of Bangladesh Navy Mr. A.K.M Shafiqullah is occupying the position of the Director General of the Department of Shipping while Commodore Mr. A K M Alauddin occupying the position of the Chief Engineer and Ship Supervisor. Navy Captain Mr. Yeaheya Sayeed is a Director of Chittagong Dry Dock Limited, an enterprise of the Bangladesh Steel & Engineering Corporation and also a Member of the Chittagong Port Authority. Captain Mr. SY Kamal is Member (operations), Captain Mr. Ramjan Ali is Deputy Conservator of the Chittagong Port Authority, and Captain Mr. Zahir Mahmood is Deputy Conservator of the Port of Chalna Authority in Khulna. Brigadier General Md. Rafiqul Islam is the Director (signals) of the Bangladesh Telecommunications Company Ltd. Major Gen (retd) Manzur Rashid Chowdhury has been made the newly formed Truth and Accountability Commission's member. Even the sports sector is not safe from their interference. The current army chief General Moeen U Ahmed grabs the positions of the Chairman of the National Sports Council and the President of Bangladesh Olympic Association. The chief of air force Vice Marshal Ziaur Rahman Khan heads Bangladesh Hockey Federation while the naval chief Admiral Sarwar Jahan Nizam heads the Swimming Federation. Major General Ahsab Uddin, the General Officer Commanding of the 9th Infantry Division, is the President of the National Shooting Federation. The chief of general staff of the army Major General Seena Ibn Jamali is the President of Bangladesh Cricket Board with Lieutenant Colonel (Retired) Md. Abdul Latif Khan as Vice President. Lieutenant Commodore A K Sirker is occupying the post of General Secretary of the Basketball Federation. These are very few out of the numerous positions occupied by the officers of the armed forces in the civil administration and autonomous institutions of Bangladesh. All information on such events is not available as the authorities suppress information to skip criticism. Moreover, the armed forces have been deployed in all the district headquarters of the 64 districts of Bangladesh since the state of emergency besides the decades' long full-fledged militarization of three districts in the hill tracks of Chittagong region. Initially, the government deployed armed forces in all the upazillas (sub-district units) as soon as the emergency was imposed. The DCs have been severely humiliate because army Majors being much junior to them have been placed in the districts levels. These Majors hurl abusive and exert illegal influences before the DCs, making the district heads embarrassed and frustrated. "People should no longer have patience and resist the audacity of these uncivilized Majors", commented a DC, who did not wish to be identified. All the national level policy decisions are made, changed and influenced by the top officials of the armed forces. The "National Coordinating Committee", which oversees the corruption issues staying atop all administrative setups, recommends the Anti Corruption Commission as to who will be charged and who will not be. The top officers of the armed forces occupy the coordinating body. The Rapid Action Battalion, also drenched with the officers of the armed forces on deputation, is extended to the district and upazilla levels with their own setups besides the regular police force. The police who are supposed to be responsible for maintaining law and order in the country have excessively been supported by the Rapid Action Battalion (RAB) and the armed forces during the state of emergency. So, in reality, all the forces arrest people. The common people have access only to the police stations for enquiring on the whereabouts of the arrested and detained persons, and none of the law-enforcing agencies explain to anyone whenever arrests are made. When the armed forces and RAB arrest, detain and torture people the police remain out of the picture and none of the police stations record any case regarding such incidents. Even the lawyers rarely agree to assist the victims by drafting and lodging a complaint with the Magistrate's Court, which is last resort for the vulnerable people to seek redress following a denial by the police. According to reports, the armed force officers frequently make phone calls to the Magistrates and Judges regarding pending cases to address the issues meeting the interest of the officers. Magistrates also cannot ignore fearing the security of themselves, their families and relatives. However, none of these magistrates agreed to disclose it officially other than "off the record". The condition of the prosecutors is worse than that of the judges and magistrates. The offices of the prosecutors and attorneys are filled up with members of the intelligence agencies and in special cases the officers of the armed forces, who insist and direct them to lead the proceedings as the agencies wish. Surprisingly enough, under the coverage of emergency provisions, officers of the armed forces remain present in the courtrooms and relevant offices of the courts during, before and after the trials as members of "Task Force". They visit the courts and the relevant offices to monitor, dictate and insist the staffs for the cases they are more interested. The military remains far away from any mechanism of accountability unlike any other organizations of Bangladesh. Thus, the armed forces enjoy absolute impunity for their unlawful actions supported by the laws made by the government during the state of emergency. The existing situation evidently shows the silent but gradual, and eventually complete, militarization in Bangladesh. The joint forces deployed across the country frequently intervene into many local and private institutions including the activities of the media, NGO, and human right activisms though they are not eligible and competent to do so. These unlawful attempts have already demoralized the concerned professionals. As a consequence of regular interventions by the armed forces into their work, they cannot contribute to the society and to their respective fields by accomplishing their official responsibilities. The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) is highly concerned about the all out militarization in Bangladesh. The military cannot be capable or substitute of the civil administration in any place of the world because of their training with arbitrariness. The armed forces are accustomed to command rather than being accountable to any civil authority. The ongoing huge militarization has been destroying the fabrics of democracy and rule of law in the country. AHRC urges the civil society and human rights groups in the country and the international community to insist the authorities of Bangladesh to immediately demilitarize all institutions the armed forces have been occupying illegibly. # # # About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984. Posted on 2008-09-01 http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2008statements/1671/ From rohitism at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 11:53:21 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:53:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Send fax to Chief Minister of Maharashtra against the coming up of Dow Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Shashi Sonawane Date: Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:32 AM Friends, The International Campaign for Justice in Bhopal had launched a fax campaign against the coming up of Dow Chemicals in Shinde, Pune. We have been fighting and shall continue to fight tooth and nail against Dow. We request you all to send fax to our Chief Minister of Maharashtra through the link given below. Stop Dow in Pune – send a fax to the Chief Minister of Maharashtra today! Supporters from all over the world are sending this fax. Please join this campaign. Tell our friends send this fax. This action might also make difference. Shashi Sonwane National Convenor - Yuva Bharat - -- LOKSHASAN ANDOLAN Swatantrya - Samata - Bandhutva - Swawalamban FOUNDER - Justice P.B. Sawant (retd.) President - Justice B.G. Kolse-patil (retd.) (9822434343) Working President - Com. Vilas Sonawane (9422520574) Shashi Sonawane (9967134717) ____________________________________________________________ Justice for Bhopal! www.studentsforbhopal.org From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 18:31:23 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:31:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] watch "Saffron Terror" on CNN IBN Message-ID: "Saffron Terror" on CNN IBN at 2pm and 9.30 pm IST on Oct 12 2008 An expose of how a network of extremist and militant hindutva organizations have embarked on a systematic campaign to terrorize minorities. Subhash Gatade From asitredsalute at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 21:21:56 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 21:21:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arrest of Sebastian Rodrigues and other activists in Goa at Quepem Poilice Station In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:20 PM, Asit asitreds wrote: > Dear Friends > > > > Today, ten activists including Sebastian Rodrigues of Mand Adivasi Resource > Centre struggling against mining activities in the area for the past two > decades have been arrested at Quepem Police Station. It is to be noted that > the police shamelessly watched the activists being beaten up by local mining > mafia at the site of struggle clearly exposing the nexus between the mining > mafia-corrupt politicians, bureaucrats and local police. > > > > Mining activities in the area will create a devastating impact on the > ecology and livelihoods of the farmers. People in the area have been > resisting against forcible evictions, release of toxic wastes into local > waters and springs, release of waste water into agricultural fields which > created huge losses for farmers in the past and initiating mining > activities in rich buffer zones of sanctuary areas. It is clear in the > Wildlife Protection Act that no such activities should be allowed in the > area. It is shocking to hear that clearances have been given even though in > the public hearing for the mining activities in Maina, Cowrem and Rivona > majority of the people had said 'no to mining' making its clearance against > the will of the people , undemocratic and anti people. The mining > authorities, here Tarcar Mines have been consistently using their nexus with > politicians, police to get easy clearances for their activities making a > mockery of all the environmental laws. > > > > The protests at Maina today is a sign of the kind of atrocities being meted > out to people resisting mining terrorism in the Goa. Cheryl D'Souza, her > daughter and mother have refused to be compensated for their farmlands to > allow mining in the area and yet have been facing continuous threats from > the mining mafia. Cheryl had approached the Goa Chief Minister two days ago > to act on the issue but he could not promise anything. Her family chained > themselves to the trucks today with support from activists from Mand > Adivasi Resource Centre and resisted transportation of ore of 200 trucks > from the area. The protests turned ugly when the local mafia beat them up, > destroyed their cameras and the police watched the situation. They have been > arrested by the police and we demand their immediate release from Quepem > Police Station. > > > > We appeal to you to kindly send letters to the Chief Minister and Governor > of Goa > > for immediate release of the arrested activists, arrest and initiate police > action against the goons who physically assaulted the activists and > immediately halt mining in the area. > > > > Their phone and fax numbers are > > > > *Goa** Chief Minister* > > *Digambar Kamat* > > *Office:* 2419841,2411049, FAX-2419846 > > Residence : 2730432, FAX-2223648 > > Goa,Pin:-403601 > > Email: mla-marg.goa at nic.in > > > > *Goa** Governor * > > *S C Jamir* > > Telephone (Off) : (0832) 2453506, 2453507, 2453508 > Fax : (0832) 2453510 > Email : gv.goa at nic.in > > > > > > We request you to immediately write to the Chief Minister and Governor and > express solidarity with the struggle. > > > > In Solidarity, > > > > Vijay Pratap, Convenor, Lokayan/SADED-CSDS, Kuldeep Nair, Asit Das, > People's Political Front, Sayantoni Datta, SADED-CSDS, Shaweta Anand > SADED-CSDS > > > > > > *Note:* For more details please visit mandgoa.blogspot.com > From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 21:37:19 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 21:37:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Music for peace, justice, dignity/Oct 11/5:30 pm In-Reply-To: <35f96d470810110906t6212f4b4v1e43f7b7d13825f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <989281.43156.qm@web45210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <35f96d470810092330r5edd3b95o866bd8e4fd3be0aa@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470810110906t6212f4b4v1e43f7b7d13825f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470810110907u61c92306r8f1876479849f332@mail.gmail.com> hi Do forward this invite widely! Anivar ------------------------------------------------------- Vinay Mahajan and Charul Bharwada (of Loknaad, Ahmedabad), whose poem "Mandir, masjid, girja ghar" is one of the most widely-sung songs for communal harmony in the country will making a musical presentation in Bangalore on Oct 11, 2008. For years, this truly inspiring activist-researcher-singer duo has been consistently working amongst the poorest communities in Gujarat such as the maldharis (camel-herders), the salt-pan workers, and so on, often using song as a powerful communication medium in their work. Please do attend and also forward this invitation widely. "Mandir, masjid, girja ghar ne, baant liya bhagwan ko, Dharti baanti, sagar baanta, mat baanto insaan ko" - Vinay Mahajan In these times of fear and violence, In these times of growing hatred, A Voice of Hope... A Voice for Peace ... INSAAN HAIN HUM Lakeeron Se Banti Insaaniyat Ke Naam You are cordially invited to a unique musical presentation on peace, justice and dignity by Charul Bharwada and Vinay Mahajan, Loknaad, Ahmedabad Date: Saturday, 11 Oct 2008 Time: 5:30 pm Venue: Ashirwad, 30, St Marks Road, Opp SBI, Bengaluru Warm regards, Alternative Law Forum, Anivar Aravind, Du Saraswathi, KP Sasi, Namma Manasa, Nilanjana, Manohar, Prof Hasan Mansoor, Prof Ramdas Rao, Sumathy Murthy, Ullaas For more details, contact Siddharth at 9845001168 or Nilanjana at 9845651818 From veryseriousmail at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 11 22:34:02 2008 From: veryseriousmail at yahoo.ca (Sophie Le-Phat Ho) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Call for participation: Artivistic 2009 // TURN*ON Message-ID: <713463.26726.qm@web52908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> *********** please distribute widely ********** ............. sorry for x-postings ............ :::feel free to translate in other languages::: Call for participation TURN*ON Artivistic 2009 (Fall) Montreal, Canada http://artivistic.org/ The world to come is so sexy. We are unstoppable for we are fueled with an incredible urge to embrace the pleasure provided by difference, exchange and freedom. Our actions today are charged with an energy that is animated by the rise of change and a movement that is simply irresistible. New movements are arising at the intersections of sex, politics and technology. These movements are inspired by, as well as critical of, the long traditions of struggle they stem from, remixing gender bending, sex work (and play), and media activism. From body hacking to the implosion of the service economy, where are we today and what new possibilities can we envision and nurture? For its upcoming fourth edition, Artivistic is going sexy. Discussing, questioning, and imagining the past, present, future, and infinite possibilities of sex. While keeping issues of power and control in question, we want to turn to the potency of pleasure, curiosity, humor, and desire in order to TURN*ON that which has yet to be thought and experienced differently. Building on previous generations of gatherings, Artivistic 2009 asks the following questions: * What kind of world is worth fantasizing about? How can imagination act as a productive tool to think sex with and beyond the body? Fantasy always plays a role in political projects when we imagine the "world we want", but how does that fantasy become reality? Where does the line blur? What feedback loops are created between what we desire and the lives we live everyday? * What actually makes resistance irresistible? The different notions of sex, gender and sexuality draw our attention to the task of naming. That task can be appropriated in liberating ways. How do we move away from tired and troublesome terminology in order to create different relationships that unleash new ways of thinking (and relating) and new strategies for political action? How can reimagining sex contribute to a process of decolonization in every sense of the word? * What are the alternative infrastructures of sex? Sex is everywhere. Everyone talks about sex and this can tend to be polarizing and unproductive. How we address sex might get us somewhere more, say... stimulating, by welcoming the critical analysis of the production and consumption of sex, and an exploration of self-organized, even intimate, initiatives. What new libidinal economies of service and information are emerging with respect to sex work and how can we struggle for the rights of communities forging these new paths? In line with the self-organized aspect of the upcoming gathering, the Artivistic collective seeks proposals that intervene in the very (infra)structure of the event, welcoming proposals that involve food, space, venue, communications, hardware, software, skill sharing, documentation, dissemination and so on. The gathering further encourages submissions that take on the challenge of collective participation and collaboration, opening onto unconventional praxes and theses of knowledge production. Artivistic is an international transdisciplinary three-day gathering on the interPlay between art, information and activism. Artivistic emerges out of the proposition that not only artists talk about art, academics about theory, and activists about activism. Founded in 2004, the event aims to promote transdisciplinary and intercultural dialogue on activist art beyond critique, to create and facilitate a human network of diverse peoples, and to inspire, proliferate, activate. To submit a proposal, please use the online form via: http://artivistic.org Alternatively, you can send your proposal to: participation at artivistic.org Deadline: 1st November 2008 Questions: info at artivistic.org * * * Découvrez les photos les plus intéressantes du jour. http://www.flickr.com/explore/interesting/7days/ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Oct 11 22:40:28 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 23:10:28 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] EVENT: Many Marxisms Message-ID: http://mercury.soas.ac.uk/hm/conference2008.htm MANY MARXISMS: HISTORICAL MATERIALISM ANNUAL CONFERENCE 2008 7-9 November 2008 School of Oriental and African Studies, Central London Organised in collaboration with the Isaac and Tamara Deutscher Memorial Prize Committee and with Socialist Register. Organised in association with the International Initiative for the Promotion of Political Economy, the journal Situations and the Journal of Agrarian Change, and with the assistance of the Faculty of Law and Social Sciences of SOAS. Ever since its foundation in 1997, Historical Materialism has sought to contribute to the intellectual recomposition of the global Left by serving as an international venue for critical Marxist research. The journal's initial wager - that Marxism remains a vital, and heterogeneous and many-faceted political and theoretical tradition - has been borne out in a conjuncture where Marxist thinkers have amply demonstrated the critical resources at their disposal (witness recent debates on imperialism and neoliberalism). Within the academy, the facile dismissal of Marxism seems to have run out of steam, and the attitudes of new generations of students and researchers have changed accordingly. Marxist intellectuals are no longer simply forced to survive in hostile conditions or to retreat into isolated academic subcultures, despite an often adverse global political context. In this setting, they face new challenges, which this conference seeks to address How can we develop the plurality of Marxist debates, fields and schools without making concessions to eclecticism, narcissism or compartmentalisation? How do we square the concrete multiplicity of Marxisms with the strong commonalities in intellectual vocabularies, theoretical sources and political aims? Hasn't the question of the diversity of Marxism - of many Marxisms - accompanied the tradition's entire development, a testament both to its internationalist horizon, and to the inexhaustible potential of its many critical insights and conceptual formulations? What strategies can allow us to confront, and perhaps overcome, some of the disparities or even misunderstandings born of these processes of differentiation? Having tried to foster a form of critical cosmopolitanism and debate in past conferences, bringing together thinkers working in different fields, and out of different traditions, this year's Historical Materialism conference wants to emphasise problems and opportunities raised by the existence of 'Many Marxisms'. To this end, it aims to take stock of recent developments in Marxist thought, surveying the most vibrant recent debates; to confront critical moments in the historical development of Marxism; to identify crucial concepts and areas of research that can cut across any preconceived academic specialisation or geographical isolation of Marxism; to reflect on the ways in which Marxism has and continues to intervene in mainstream intellectual debates; and, finally, to generate a space in which the outlines of the many twenty-first century Marxisms may be delineated. THE FULL TIMETABLE AND ONLINE REGISTRATION DETAILS WILL BE AVAILABLE SOON For more details, please contact: historicalmaterialism at soas.ac.uk THEMES COVERED WILL INCLUDE: Approaching Passive Revolutions * Art and Capitalism * Aspects of Imperialism * Base and Superstructure * Beyond Global Value Chain Analysis in Commodity Studies * Bolshevism: Yesterday and Tomorrow * Capitalism / Knowledge Capitalism * Capitalism and Architecture * Climate Change, Sustainability and Socialism * Contemporary Radical Thought and Marxism: Agamben, Holloway, Zizek * Early Modern Capitalism * Ecological Crisis and Marxist Theory * Everyday Life * Finance and Neo-Liberalism * Financialisation and Crisis * Food Crisis * From the Grundrisse to Capital * Future of World Capitalism * Historical Materialism and Late Development * Historiography in the Development of Marxism * International Financial Institutions * Is Today's Capitalism Actually-Existing Barbarism? * Labour-Process and Resistance * Latin American Left Today * Learning from Enemies and Rivals: Schmitt, Strauss, Weber * Life, Politics & Capitalism * Many Marxisms and India * Many Marxisms: Key Figures * Many Marxisms: Problems and Polemics * Marx and Fetishism * Marx on World Economy and World Politics * Marxism and Cinema: Film Noir and Neo-Noir * Marxism and Metropolitics * Marxism and Philosophy * Marxism and the Sciences * Marxism Outside the West * Marxism, Feminism and Women's Politics * Marxisms and Literature * Marxisms and Religion * Marxisms and Southern Africa * Marxisms and Violences: Gender and Race * Marxist Theories of Practice * Modes of Foreign Relations * Monetary Policy and Banking under Neoliberalism * Money * Negativity and Revolution * North East Asian Marxisms and Socialisms * On the Concept of Surplus Populations * Perspectives from Althusser * Perspectives from Marx's 'Jewish Question' * Philosophies of Revolt and Revolution * Philosophy in the Early Marx * Political Categories of Marxism * Political Economy and Economics Today * Politics of the Promotion of Global Competitiveness * Racism, Class and Politics * Restructuring, Capital and Labour * Revolutionary Politics in the Middle East * Sexual Liberation: Historical Materialist Approaches * Situationism at the Limits: Must we Burn Debord? * Socialism in Search of an Economic System * State in the Bolivarian revolution * Theories of Class * Theories of Imperialism * Time, Temporality, History * Transformations in the Neoliberal State * Uneven and Combined Development: Towards a Marxist Theory of 'the International'? * US Financial Power in Crisis * Utopianism * Value: Political and Economic Dimensions * 'Western' Marxism and the Anti-Colonial World/Intellectuals * Windows on Empire: Perspectives from History, Culture and Political Economy * Workerism: a Generation Later * PARTICIPANTS INCLUDE: Rabab Ibrahim Abdulhadi, Gilbert Achcar, Talat Ahmed, Greg Albo, Jamie Allinson, Kevin Anderson, Ricardo Antunes, Giovanni Arrighi, Sam Ashman, Antonio Carmona Báez, Richard Bailey, Metin Bal, Colin Barker, Kate Bayliss, Pınar Bedirhanoğlu, Mike Beggs, Riccardo Bellofiore, Aaron Benanav, Ted Benton, Henry Bernstein, Cyrus Bina, Werner Bonefeld, Mark Bould, Pepijn Brandon, Peter Bratsis, Robert Brenner, Dennis Broe, Dick Bryan, Ergun Bulut, Verity Burgmann, Alex Callinicos, Paul Cammack, Mauro Farnesi Camellone, Al Campbell, Bob Cannon, Gavin Capps, Thomas Carmichael, Emilia Castorina, Maria Elisa Cevasco, Hsiu-Man Chen, Vivek Chibber, Alexander Chryssis, Martin Cobian, Peter Custers, John Darwin, Neil Davidson, Charles Davis, Chuck Davis, Gail Day, Tim Dayton, Roni Demirbag, Radhika Desai, Pat Devine, Paulo dos Santos, Peter Drucker, Jean-Numa Ducange, Gérard Duménil, Nick Dyer-Witheford, Timm Ebner, Bolivar Echeverria, Juliane Edler, Ersin Vedat Elgur, Katsuhiko Endo, Sara R. Farris, Lucy Ferguson, Don Filtzer, Ben Fine, Robert Fine, Bridget Fowler, Carl Freedman, Alan Freeman, Andrea Fumagalli, Cristina Morini, Lindsey German, Melanie Gilligan, Ruth Wilson Gilmour, Saroj Giri, Richard Godden, Maya Gonzalez, Jamie Gough, Peter Gowan, Kevin Gray, Nick Gray, Chris Harman, Barbara Harriss-White, Owen Hatherley, Cristoph Hermann, Andy Higginbottom, Mike Hill, Christian Høgsbjerg, Evren Hosgor, Nik Howard, David Jack, Elinor Jean, Oliver Jelinski, Nicholas Joll, Ismail Karatepe, Ken Kawashima, Paul Kellogg, Geoff Kennedy, Sami Khatib, Aykut Kilic, Donald Kingsbury, Nick Knight, Martijn Konings, Michael Krätke, Rick Kuhn, Ishay Landa, Tim Lang, Spyros Lapatsioras, Paul LeBlanc, Sergio Lessa, Alex Levant, Peter Linebaugh, Alex Loftus, Rob Lucas, Dennis Maeder, Matteo Mandarini, Christian Marazzi, Jonathan Martineau, Paul Mattick, David Mayer, Andrew McGettigan, Philip McMichael, David McNally, James Meadway, John Milios, Owen Miller, Andrew Milner, Dimitris Milonakis, John Molyneux, David Moore, Cristina Morini, Adam Morton, Zwi Negator, Susan Newman, Jörg Nowak, Benjamin Noys, Bertel Nygaard, Bridget O'Laughlin, Keith O'Regan, Sebnem Oguz, Ulrich Oslender, Ceren Özselçuk, Maria Cristina Soares Paniago, Leo Panitch, F. Papadatos, Juan Pablo Painceira Paschoa, Leda Maria Paulani, Simon Pirani, Iain Pirie, Nina Power, Gonzalo Pozo-Martin, Thomas Purcell, Diana Raby, Michael Rafferty, Geert Reuten, Paul Reynolds, Ben Richardson, John Riddell, John Roberts, Bruce Robinson, John Rose, Thomas Sablowski, Spyros Sakellaropoulos, Jorgen Sandemose, Saskia Sassen, Michael Sayeau, Sean Sayers, David Schwartzman, Alan Sears, Lynne Segal, Ben Selwyn, Sanjay Seth, Stuart Shields, Nicola Short, Joe Sim, Rick Simon, Subir Sinha, Panagiotis Sotiris, Dimitris P. Sotiropoulos, Kerstin Stakemeier, Guido Starosta, Marcel Stoetzler, Robert Stolz, Gaspar Miklós Tamás, Bruno Tinel, Peter Thomas, Massimiliano Tomba, Alberto Toscano, Greg Tuck, Mehmet Ufuk Tutan, Kees van der Pijl, Jan Douwe van der Ploeg, Carlo Vercellone, Danga Vileisis, Sherryl Vint, Satnam Virdee, Andriana Vlachou, Elisa Waeyenberge, Jeffery R. Webber, Dominic Wetzel, Adrian Wilding, Evan Calder Williams, Frieder Otto Wolf, Andrew Wright, Steve Wright, Galip Yalman, Iván Zatz From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 00:50:23 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 00:50:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] THE RIGHT VIEW - A secular protocol - Tarun Vijay Message-ID: <6353c690810111220i379a8e79ga3b3fad304a5f816@mail.gmail.com> THE RIGHT VIEW - A secular protocol Tarun Vijay - The Times of India 11th October 2008 Patience is the key that defines facilitating others' survival more than your own. Earth, mother we call her, symbolises that element of life. She lets the barbarian exploit her boons and the bliss, and waits for a millennium to show she is angry. Indian society, which believes in the values of the civilisational flow so painstakingly preserved and handed over to us, is being subjected the same kind of test of patience by the forces that represent the colors of Roman and Arab ancestry. Like history can't be understood through secondary or tertiary sources, original references have to be consulted, watershed incidents in a nation's life have to be analysed through original events. Hence after Meenakshipuram, the forced exodus of Kashmiri Hindus, Godhra and Kandhmal murders, its now the turn of Bodo Hindus in Assam to face Muslim attacks. So far 40 Hindus have been reported killed and 76,000 people have left their villages out of fear and taken refuge in 32 state government camps in Udalguri and Darrang. Twelve villages have been burnt. In Jhakuapara village the gaon budhaa (village head) was burnt alive along with his mother and sister. It all began after local Hindus resisted the forcible occupation of their lands by Muslims. The area has suddenly seen Bodo Hindus reduced to a minority and a spurt in the activities of the All Assam Minority Students Union (AMSU), SIMI, All Assam Muslim Chatra Parishad and Muslim Students Association (MUSA). Now, having burnt Hindu villages and forced them to flee, Muslims are occupying the villages vacated by Hindus. The Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF - Badruddin Ajmal's Muslim Political Party) MLA Rasul Haq Bahadur and AAMSU president Abdul Aziz have been demanding a separate autonomous area for the Muslims in lower Assam. The recent violence is considered as a 'warming up' exercise' to chase away Hindus from their traditional hamlets. Saw any report or interviews of the victims or front page 'shame' editorials condemning the roasting alive of Hindus, or making them refugees in their own land? Got any call from Vatican or admonishment from Paris? Sorry, the victims happened to be Hindus so we can devote our space and time on matters more earthly like ICL cricket and red alerts in the stock exchange. Hate sells. The more you add poison to it, the more you get elevated on the scales of leadership and fame. They say terrorism is the main issue. But do you think any one wants to fight it? All that appears on the list are a few ghastly pictures of the terror-struck common people, a few 'good' slogans, emotional lines of poetry and the election plank is ready. Greed, intolerance, revenge and bigotry of the secular kind have taken centrestage to constitutionalise a hate regime that thrives on disrobing India of her unique characteristics. Anything that defines that uniqueness is under assault and like a colonial dispensation; this has become a business of profit and comfort. Grants, awards and fellowships are reserved for those who yield and say yes to the secular protocol that defines India as a non-Hindu entity, using terms like 'shackled in the old', 'outdated', 'obscurantist Brahmanism' and 'weird ritualism which makes the practitioner rigid, backward looking' and 'pot-bellied, unintelligent creature with a tuft'. The sultans of this secular protocol define an assertive Hindu as anti-women, anti-minority (read Muslims and Christians), Hindi chauvinist, having a fossilized vision that tries to revive a dead language like Sanskrit, worshipper of snakes, rats, cow, phallus, trees, who uses cow urine, cow dung for various purposes including medicine. They light fire and throw some herbs to please gods, who are elephant-shaped, and use peacocks, oxen and owls as their vehicles. They have to be civilized. And to do that they get grants from the ministry of culture. >From the Germans and Dutch. The contemporary seculars use exactly the same language and show identical concern as was used and shown by the British when they urged the Christian missionaries to civilise the Hindu savages a hundred years ago. In 1913, British forces under Major Hamilton shot dead 1,500 Hindu Bhil freedom fighters who had waged a struggle under the leadership of a great reformist, Govind Giri, a disciple of Swami Dayananda. Having performed this act of "valour", Major Hamilton invited the church to start work amongst the Bhils to "give them the divine message". He made the following appeal to Rev. D.G. Cock of the Presbyterian mission, Neemuch: "Against my wishes, I ordered police to fire on the innocent persons. Knew and loved them for years together. Really it was a sad experience of my life. You go there and do work which I could not do for them. Their hearts have broken. Give them divine message. I want to do something and I know the best one will be to establish a mission centre." (Planting a mission among the Bhils of south Rajasthan', in man and Life, vol 10, pp 77-96). Fifteen hundred innocent Bhils were killed. And the British officer asks the Church, almost as an order, to go and work among them. First physical annihilation, then organizing efforts for disrobing them of their culture and religion. And they are the adorable icons of the contemporary secular. Hindus, medical doctors, MDs, law graduates, IITians,MBAs, working among tribals to help them get better education never finds a place of honour or even a mention in the passing. Because they preserve the culture and indigenous traditions. In secular protocol, only those who dispossess Hindus of their identity are eligible for enlisting. Hence converting tribals to Christianity is acceptable, preserving their culture is not. An assault on a nun is deplorable; a murder of a lady Hindu monk is no news. Burning alive of Hindu Bodos finds a brief mention, burning alive of non-Hindus deserve a front page editorial. Post Godhra, Kandhmal, and Mangalore, Hindu symbols like Trishul must be turned into symbols of 'Hindu terrorism'. Post 90s till this date, jihadi symbols like crossed rifles in the backdrop of Koran or a jihadi killing infants or a NSCN activist in Nagaland demanding Nagalim for Christ, must not be used as symbols of hate because that's against secular tenets. It's a universally accepted norm of the secular fraternity. Have you ever, anywhere seen a jjhadi's barbaric face as a symbol of terrorism? The only face you might have seen shows a Muslim tailor with folded hands, a Hindu "goon" with a saffron headband, a trishul terrifying the minorities. Even the Maoists are never depicted as barbaric goons who have killed more than 12,000 Indians so far and government has to set up a special cell in the Ministry of Home Affairs to tackle the left extremism problem. They are seculars, hence can't be depicted as terrorists. Recently I saw a magazine depicting Jesus crucified on a trishul . Even if for the sake of argument one may say some Hindus are indulging in such activities which these seculars find bad, is their depiction of a Jesus crucifixion on a trishul to convey their dismay and disapproval acceptable and responsible behavior? Do they think the trishul is the sole property or the patented symbol of the kind of Hindus they despise? What about those Hindus who do not vote BJP or support Bajrang Dal? Do they all belong to a non-Trishul order of faith? Depicting and institutionalizing the trishul as a hate symbol is acceptable behavior for the secular. What about the cross of the separatists in Nagaland who kill and maim non-conformists? And the two AK-47s around the Koran used by terrorist groups? Has any one; any secular, journalist, leader or human rightists ever used such symbols to depict bloodthirsty aggressors? A subservient media, a colonized mindset, a "manageable" pen – this is all that is needed to clothe a secular protocol. It's a protocol that directs them to bury and subvert the truth. When the killers of Swami Lakshmananada were arrested, the news was filtered and published in a muffled way. Only in one newspaper did I see a statement that pointed towards Christian involvement in the ghastly murders. Maoist leader Sabyasachi Panda admitted to a group of media persons that "it is a fact that Christians form the majority in our organisation. Our supporters in Rayagada, Gajapati and Kandhamal also belonged to the Christian community". According to him, Saraswati was killed because he did not pay heed when the Maoists' warned him to end his anti-Christian activities. Anyone condemned the confession? This secular protocol insults a police officer even in death, humiliates his family in grief, reinstates a teacher involved in the attack on Parliament, demand a ban on Hindu organizations without any proof or court order, but comes out on the streets seeking freedom for a terrorist sentenced to death by the highest court of the land. The secular protocol accepts permissiveness and exploitation of women as acceptable smart behavior; opposition to sex in Meerut parks was booed as "moral policing", "they" were dubbed anti-environment and as consuming more and conserving nothing. This protocol is anti-family values – it turns homes into serais by legitimizing 'live-in' relations, it is anti-societal stability – which rejects institutionalised relationships, replacing them with discount coupons of pleasure trips, likes to invest in old age homes rather take care of parents. (So much power this secular protocol has wielded that the state felt compelled to make a law to punish children who do not care for their parents). It supports gay marriages as a mark of human advancement and abhors the only institution that has sustained global societies – motherhood, as a symbol of women's slavery. Having done that, it organizes seminars on the fall in civility and ethics. They love to say they are not Hindus but 'humans' and when it comes to making profit they are in the forefront to sell Hindu songs and bhajans .All those media houses who love to deride Hindutva as a house policy, do not hesitate to make millions by selling Sanskrit mantras, bhajans, kirtans, in CDs and VCDs, and present the same dramas they deplore as "mythological" called Ramayana and Mahabharata, to increase TRP ratings. They are the same seculars who had opposed such Ramanand Sagar serials during the 90s, saying "such mythological dramas" helped fan the flames of the Ayodhya movement, which was, in their eyes, anti-minority. When it comes to lucre and power sharing and a good berth after life, everyone comes closer to the forces representing Rama's side. So not a single secular would say he should be buried after death and no Sanskrit mantra be chanted because it's a dead language of deplorable Brahmins. So a sense of personal profit, here or after life, makes them to protect and support a Hindu character. If votes too begin flowing to their boxes this way, they, and not the BJP, would be the first to build Ram temple at Ayodhya. That's the moral of their secular protocol. Link - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Columnists/Tarun_Vijay_A_secular_protocol/articleshow/3584631.cms From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 10:29:42 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:29:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPI (M) goons kill RSS swayam-sewak by a crude bomb in Kannur Message-ID: <6353c690810112159n1fe64f92occded7f22c5220b0@mail.gmail.com> RSS activist killed, shutdown in Kerala town Kannur (Kerala), Oct 11 (IANS) A daylong shutdown was called by the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) in a town in Kerala's northern Kannur district Saturday after the killing of an RSS activist.RSS activist C.K. Anoop was killed in a bomb explosion at Eranjoli near Thalassery, about 25 km from here, late Friday night. Another activist, identified as Rijesh, was admitted to hospital with serious injuries. The RSS has alleged that Anoop was killed in a bomb attack carried out by workers of the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M). The CPI-M has, however, refuted the charge saying that the RSS activist was killed while handling a country-made bomb himself. Police officials in Kannur said they are yet to confirm whether the death was caused in a bomb attack or in an explosion caused while handling a bomb. Kannur district has been a hotbed of political violence between the CPI-M and the BJP-RSS combine. A bout of such violence in March, triggered by an attack on an RSS leader, claimed at least seven lives. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 17:58:48 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 05:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? Message-ID: <793737.90155.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> What should one call it when a person condemns an act by someone and praises an identical act by someone else?   ACT A ------   On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President". He reproduces the news item and gives the weblink.   He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President .........".   (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan Durrani --------- "  WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? UNLESS  THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . HUMBLY IS ACT B -------   One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, Naeem Mohaimen posts  "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself". He too reproduces the news item and gives the weblink.   Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item.   Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- "thanks for forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all over the world."   How should one consider this person Inder Salim?    This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator similarly displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one person for abusive language and not having taken similar action against another person who also had used abusive language ( equally abusive and crude)   Kshmendra         From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 18:51:12 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:51:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810120621s6c5ae31ct1180a9da86db48fd@mail.gmail.com> Surely you jest Aditya? I am sure you are fully aware of the word on the street about Pravin Swami. The fact that he has anything to say about the encounter at all should alert us to the fact that it is absolutely fake. No more evidence is needed, than that Pravin the great expert hath spoken. Clearly his bosses in dark and mysetrious places are feeling the heat being generated by the volume of questions, and so like always, he has been instructed to perform his usual ventroloquist act. regards Aarti On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal > security > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have been > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise their > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came > out > in today's newspaper. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > *Behind the Batla House shootout > * Praveen Swami * > > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. > > * > > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, "I've > believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." > > Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have > been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent students, > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators and > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some reason, > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell the > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient > honest > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also > killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. > > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, mundane. > > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat where > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It turned > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. > > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators > determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the perpetrators > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, > calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and July > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became > active > again in Ahmedabad. > > The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the > Ahmedabad > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — > the > sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after this, > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope > that > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough > last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the > investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad > left > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this > information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. > 'Vodaphone salesman' > > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up > the > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and > shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and > called his boss. > > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the two > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped > corridor > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as > they > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. > When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. > > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, combat > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla > House-style > operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their > resources > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. > > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting > through > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted > with > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. > > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's > shirt > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, too, > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have been > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, > by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More > important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" > representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that > there > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi violence; > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." > > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the > Jamia > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. Much > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit > in which the lies have bred. > > *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > * > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:21:00 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:21:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0810120621s6c5ae31ct1180a9da86db48fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810120621s6c5ae31ct1180a9da86db48fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810120651g1f48d20u93c253865581a49c@mail.gmail.com> Just too amusing, Aartiji. When the fact is too hard to digest, people start deviating towards excuses and encouraging rumours. It for sure tells us how brilliantly Praveen Swami has exposed the propaganda of those few "jhollahwaalahs" working at the behest of politicians and their bosses and enjoying all perks. It is just too disturbing to see those "few individuals" coming to the rescue of Terrorists and their dastardly acts. Where are those people now ? It would have been interesting if similar words would have come against a Terrorist like Yasin Malik; who has suddenly become a Godly figure for all those "few" sitting here in the capital. Maybe, remaining in his shadow benifits their stomach and pockets; so what if he is a terrorist or anti-national. Wah ! You trust street rumours more than an intellectual piece which has been written on the basis of assimilated report from intelligence sources, networking and hard research. Do I need say more on your so proper and honest "verdict" ? After all, Its Aarti Sethi ji who has spoken those golden words. Though I'm no one to defend Praveen Swami; but the fact always remains a fact. His exceptional - blunt 'on the face' articles on Kashmir, Terrorism, Intelligence etc. are in no comparison to other writers or journalists and experts. He exposes them openly. I know it pains you to see how such a respected commentator argues in favour of the encounter. Its just alright. Chill :-) Note of Caution - There is a political game behind this tirade against the Police on this encounter. Common citizens, genuine media and even genuine activists for that matter shouldn't get entangled in this trap which is in reality to garner votes. I hereby attach only a few letters published in response to this honest article - Opinion - Letters to the Editor [image: Printer Friendly Page] [image: Send this Article to a Friend] * Batla House shootout * It was heartening to read Praveen Swami's analysis of the Jamia Nagar shootout (October 10). Newspapers and commentators, trying to be too politically correct, have been spewing a lot of nonsense on this issue, sullying the dead inspector's name. Rather than confronting the real threat of home-grown jihad these tactics further muddle the issue and foster enmity in the community. Policemen who are operating under the most trying and unenviable circumstances will be demoralised if the media castigate them for not doing enough or accuse them of overzealous action. Some restraint on the media glare is needed to let the policeman do his job. *Arvind Narayan, * *Mauritius * * * * The death of an honest and brave police officer at the hands of terrorists is unfortunate. What is more unfortunate is that some irresponsible and narrow-minded individuals like to see this as the death of some "innocent" kid at the hands of scheming police officers. A terrorist is a terrorist, irrespective of the religion he follows. Belonging to the "majority" or "minority" community does not make his sin any smaller. *Narendra A. * *Bangalore * * * * The security forces, even without negative publicity, are fighting with one hand tied behind their back. The fact that a dedicated officer became a martyr hardly holds any significance for the so-called human rights activists and an equally sensation-mongering media. Strong political and public support alone can wipe out this menace. The other pressing necessity is inculcating basic human values in our children and society. *R.Unni Krishnan, * *Kochi * Love* *Aditya Raj Kaul* * On 10/12/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Surely you jest Aditya? I am sure you are fully aware of the word on the > street about Pravin Swami. The fact that he has anything to say about the > encounter at all should alert us to the fact that it is absolutely fake. No > more evidence is needed, than that Pravin the great expert hath spoken. > Clearly his bosses in dark and mysetrious places are feeling the heat being > generated by the volume of questions, and so like always, he has been > instructed to perform his usual ventroloquist act. > > regards > Aarti > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal >> security >> and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have >> been >> missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least >> portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise >> their >> 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came >> out >> in today's newspaper. >> >> Love >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> *Behind the Batla House shootout >> * Praveen Swami * >> >> Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. >> >> * >> >> "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, >> "I've >> believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." >> >> Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have >> been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent >> students, >> not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators >> and >> politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have >> paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the >> shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: >> Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim >> paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some >> reason, >> though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell >> the >> tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient >> honest >> officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also >> killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. >> >> A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, >> mundane. >> >> When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat >> where >> he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two >> missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident >> contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in >> Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy >> Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the >> mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It >> turned >> out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. >> >> Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators >> determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the >> perpetrators >> between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that >> the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, >> calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and >> July >> 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been >> used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all >> from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became >> active >> again in Ahmedabad. >> >> The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the >> Ahmedabad >> bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone >> received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — >> the >> sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after >> this, >> a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, >> registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a >> discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope >> that >> he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. >> >> Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough >> last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing >> lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the >> investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad >> left >> Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this >> information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either >> provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector >> Sharma was asked to settle the issue. >> 'Vodaphone salesman' >> >> Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up >> the >> stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and >> shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a >> salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and >> called his boss. >> >> According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the >> two >> men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. >> There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped >> corridor >> which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as >> they >> entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. >> When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to >> support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded >> front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. >> >> It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. >> However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, >> combat >> tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla >> House-style >> operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit >> equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their >> resources >> and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. >> >> Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family >> Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India >> Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two >> directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the >> left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting >> through >> the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted >> with >> Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. >> >> Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's >> shirt >> was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was >> shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from >> firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop >> films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having >> ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, >> too, >> is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. >> >> In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more >> about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have >> been >> driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, >> by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More >> important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious >> right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently >> pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. >> >> In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic >> Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" >> representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that >> there >> is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to >> conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, >> the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations >> [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi >> violence; >> a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." >> >> It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the >> Jamia >> Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. >> Much >> political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit >> in which the lies have bred. >> >> *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm >> * >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:39:25 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:39:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?CBI_Asks_Court_To_Cancel_Malik=92s?= =?windows-1252?q?_Bail?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690810120707q50c7c230xe71938e7485e8cea@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810111231o25d26913vbb2ac5980ede3d3@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120704j6a9f8adejb7a700ecb46c765e@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120705h2af6f412q1982fac0d6dee47e@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120705m63906be7tab7d431e78dcb413@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120706w41a150a9g1737355207f9819d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120706q264aaec2mbc0e24caf879b03f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120707qf42d25dm1412c50bd8dfd909@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120707j75c4c0e4w16603ef6a091fe18@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120707t3b572f09va463c9ca3c63d3ef@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810120707q50c7c230xe71938e7485e8cea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810120709r5dac9f06gfd712f678791a84f@mail.gmail.com> CBI Asks Court To Cancel Malik's Bail * Srinagar, Oct 11, KONS: *The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has approached a Jammu court with a petition to cancel the bail of Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) chief, Muhammad Yasin Malik, and his other associates. The others named in the petition include senior front leaders Javed Ahmad Mir, Shaukat Ahmad Bakhshi, Muhammad Iqbal Gundroo, Manzoor Ahmad Sofi, Javed Ahmad Zargar, Merajuddin Sheikh, Ali Muhammad Mir and Mir Muhammad Ramzan. According to JKLF sources, Yasin Malik and the others had not been able to attend hearings in Jammu on July 12, August 1, and September 1 during the Jammu agitation because the Shri Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti and other extremist groups had threatened them with attacks if they stepped into Jammu city. In view of the situation, their lawyer, Imtiyaz Ahmad Sofi, requested a special court yesterday to exempt the accused from personnel appearance in the hearings. This prompted the special CBI prosecutor to ask the court to cancel the bail of Malik and his associates. Though the court exempted the accused from personal appearance in yesterday's hearing, it directed the JKLF leaders to produce themselves on October 25 at Jammu. The court hearing of the CBI's application would also take place on the same date," the spokesman added. Yasin Malik and other JKLF leaders are facing trial for their alleged involvement in a militancy case way back in early ninetees. Malik has served several years in prison already. He of late has been speaheading a mass movement in Kashmir. *CBI seeks revocation of Malik's bail**GK NEWS NETWORK Greater Kashmir * Updated at 1515 hours IST Srinagar, Oct 11: Central Bureau of Investigation has filed an application in the court seeking revocation of bail of the JKLF chairman Muhammad Yasin Malik and other front leaders for not appearing in person in the Jammu court, sources said. They said Malik and other leaders didn't appear in the Jammu court on July 12, August 1 and September 1, when agitation in the Jammu region against land row was at its peak. A spokesman of the JKLF in a statement here said that Malik and other leaders couldn't go to Jammu as the activists of Amarnath yatra Sangharsh Samiti had threatened them. " Their lawyer has filed an application in the court to seek relaxation from the personal appearance. However, court has ordered Malik and others to appear in person on October 25 at Jammu, and hearing of the CBI's application would also take place on the same date," the spokesman added. From saminasarai at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 19:59:15 2008 From: saminasarai at gmail.com (Samina Mishra) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:59:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" Message-ID: <9df304c00810120729kf773e9exa8e2a95d692a6860@mail.gmail.com> This is a piece I wrote for India Today but the version that has appeared in the magazine is an edit that I did not agree to. It's not clear to me how that happened since I edited the longer article down to this final version and sent it in to them. But the magazine is out and I am both angry and saddened at their careless editing of ideas that are particularly under siege at this point of time. So, here is my edit and I would be glad if it was circulated widely on the net - more widely than the magazine! Samina Mishra Not far from L18, in the posh part of Jamia Nagar, is a house on a tree-lined avenue that will always be home to me. But my life, with all its easy privileges, could not be more different from Atif and Sajid's, the two young men shot as alleged terrorists at L18. I contain multitudes, Whitman so eloquently said. But we live in a time when even multitudes are forced to lay claim to a singular label. And so by writing this, perhaps, I will forever be labelled the voice of the liberal secular Muslim. A voice that is accused of not speaking up. Ironically, it is this very tyranny of labels that grants me this space in a mainstream national magazine. As someone with a Muslim first name and a Hindu surname, I suppose I have always swung between labels - a poster girl for communal harmony or a confused, rootless individual, depending on who was doing the labelling. I went to a public school and have never worn a burkha. I might escape being thrown in the big cauldron with "Islamic Terrorists" but I will certainly be added to the one for "misguided intellectuals". While there is no mistaking that it is zealous nationalists who seek to light the fire under the first cauldron, the other is a bone of contention between those who seek to define for me how to be Indian and those who seek to define for me how to be Muslim. My condemnation of the demolition of the Babri Masjid, Imrana's rape or the media circus around Gudiya will always be seen in the context of my privileged background, my gender, my religious identity. Perhaps, it can be no other way. In this rhetoric of binaries of "us and them", it is difficult to find the space to create a new paradigm of discussion. And so, in conversations that throw up Islamic terrorists, rigid religious beliefs, Pakistan and madrasas, the response is inevitably another set of questions - why is the Bajrang Dal not labelled a terrorist outfit, why is the growing public display of Hindu festivals like Navratras and Karva Chauth not considered rigid religious beliefs, why should Muslims in India be answerable for what goes on in Pakistan, what spaces other than madrasas are available for thousands of believing Muslims who choose to get educated and still retain their Muslim-ness. As a Muslim in India today, not only are you fighting to shrug off the label of fundamentalist- if not terrorist - but you are also succumbing to a paradigm of dialogue which has been set for homogenous communities with clear markers of identities. But how does one fight that when shared cultural spaces, other than those created by the market, shrink? How does one speak of the diversity of being Indian when Diwali is celebrated in schools and Eid just in Muslim homes? How does one avoid a singular label for experiences that are diverse and yet have a common thread running through them - the experience of a tailor in Ahmedabad whose Hindu patrons have stopped giving work to, the butcher in Batla House who couldn't get a bank loan, the software professional who will now have to watch every single byte that leaves his computer. Being Muslim in India today means many things to many people. But how easy it is to forget that one fundamental reality. How easy it is to say, as someone said to me after the Delhi blasts - "These are all educated Muslims. Don't they know that their bombs can also kill their own?" As if everyone with a Muslim name is a terrorist's very "own". From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 12 20:28:44 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 07:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Questions for Embedded "Journalists" of Delhi Police Message-ID: <165792.1313.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group Some Questions for the Delhi Police and Embedded 'Journalists' The last few days have seen the Delhi Police "returning fire" at the critics of the Jamia Nagar encounter. Pressured by the mounting skepticism about police claims, the Delhi Police have now responded with a new round of theories and stories, which nevertheless remain as riddled with holes, as their earlier version(s). Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group responds to the latest Police claims. 1) The police was caught by surprise. Or was it? In its response to the questions being raised by the civil society, the police say, "the presence of armed terrorists took them by surprise." "The police did not expect an encounter at L-18." (Indian Express October 9) However, Praveen Swami in his "Alice in wonderland" article in The Hindu (October 10) writes that "the investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault armed squad left Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar." Further he says, "the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person." Surely, there can be only one truth: a) The police knew that a "top commander" and his "armed assault team "was residing in L-18 (as claimed confidently by Swami). In which case, the Special Cell's almost cavalier approach is inexplicable — unless we accept Swami's contention that Inspector Sharma's team did as well as it could "given their resources and training". While Swami and his ilk may rue the lack of "state of the art surveillance equipment" that can be found in United States or Europe, surely, even Third World police can use, upon knowledge that "dreaded terrorists" are holed up in a house, methods such as sealing the building, and making public announcements asking them to surrender. b) The Police went to L-18 merely for investigation and was ambushed. In which case, isn't it surprising that it took them only a few hours to crack nearly all cases of bomb blasts that have occurred across the country? It was of course inconvenient for UP, Gujarat, Rajasthan and Maharashtra state police, who had been claiming their own successes in uncovering their 'masterminds'. The Police commissioner Y.S. Dadwal announced at a news conference the same day that "Atif was the mastermind behind all the recent serial blasts," and that he had plotted the Saturday blasts... was also involved in the Ahmedabad blasts on July 26, Jaipur blasts on May 13, and one of the August 25 blasts last year in Hyderabad. Sajid was described as bomb-maker. "Explosives made by him and his team bore their signature — two detonators, wooden frame, ammonium nitrate and analog quartz clocks," Dadwal said (HindustanTimes, 20 September). The question is that, the Police which did not even expect an 'encounter' in the morning, was able to say with confidence that the bombs used in Delhi blasts bore the 'signature' of the slain Sajid by evening. The Police must pick one of these 'truths'. It cannot claim both to be true simultaneously. 2) The puzzle of the Bullet Proof Jacket Again, the Delhi Police has not made up its mind on this one. JCP, Karnail Singh and Deputy Commissioner of Police (Special Cell) Alok Kumar have reiterated that the Special Cell team members were not wearing BPVs. ["Entering a crowded locality would alert the suspects and give them time to escape" {Indian Express Oct 9); "To maintain secrecy in a cramped area like Batla House." (Tehelka Oct 4)]. However, now we are also told that some police men were wearing Bullet proof vests. This new version has appeared following the outcry after the publication of pictures of Sajid's body, which clearly show that he had been shot repeatedly in the head. Such bullet injuries suggest that he could have been killed from extreme close range while he was crouching or kneeling. This it self raises a huge question mark over the 'encounter'. "Senior police sources" now claim that Sajid was "lying on the floor when he opened fire at a cop. The cop, unlike Inspector Sharma, was wearing a bulletproof vest. He retaliated by firing a burst from his AK-47, which hit Sajid on his head." (Times of India, Oct 8). Neat. It explains why and how Sajid was killed. And also, why the cop in question was not as much as injured when Sajid was supposedly firing at him. But it doesn't square with the line the Delhi Police have been pushing up till now, that Inspector Sharma's men did not deliberately wear bullet proof vests. Nor with the claim that the Special team was "armed only with small arms". (The Hindu, October 10) Nonetheless, the Delhi Police must clearly make up its mind if the cops that day were wearing Bullet proof vests or not? 3) Corroborative evidence? Believe it or not, the evidence in support of their claim that the boys living in L-18 were terrorists, the police presents a bucket, adhesive tape and a bag! (Indian Express, Oct 9). The bucket was used to keep bombs (but was presumably empty at the time of'seizure'); the adhesive tape was used to seal the explosives (!!!); and finally the bag was used to carry the bombs (but again presumably empty when the police 'recovered' it). Let it be noted that legal requirements were flouted with regard to seizures. The police is required to prepare a seizure list of all items recovered from the site and it should be attested by two public witnesses unconnected with the police. Given that a huge crowd had gathered at the site, surely, the police could have sought the assistance of members of the public. And why does L-18 continue to remain sealed? 4) Injuries and Bullets: Photographs of the bodies of Atif and Sajid, taken during the ritual bathing before burial clearly indicate injury marks on the bodies. These marks could definitely not have been caused by bullets. The skin on Atif s back is ripped off. What caused these injury marks? Were they captured before they were eliminated? The Police is now citing the elusive post mortem report, saying that the two did not have any injuries on them apart from those caused by bullets, in order to buttress their claim of the "shootout being genuine". (TOI, Oct 9). The documentary proof of the existence of such marks on the bodies however belies their claims. Rattled by the photographs of an injured Inspector Sharma being escorted from the L-18 building, where no blood stain is visible on the front, the Police have stated that he was hit from the front as "one bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the left arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting through the hip." (The Hindu, October 10) For this reason, they argue, the bleeding was from the back—the points of exit. However, according to a senior doctor who conducted the postmortem on Inspector MC Sharma at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, "It was difficult to establish the entry and exit points of the bullet because conclusive evidence had been wiped out by the interventions of the doctors at Holy Family [where Sharma was rushed to]." (Tehelka, October 4). But at least one enthusiastic journalist doesn't stop here. He tells us that the "abdomen wound was inflicted with Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid". And how does he know? "The investigators believe that." (The Hindu, October 10)And he believes the investigators. Has he seen a copy of the post mortem? Or the videography of the post mortem? What bullets were fired upon Inspector Sharma? What was the weapon that killed Sajid and Atif? Why are the post mortem reports of Inspector Sharma and Atif and Sajid not being made public? 5 "Over confident terrorists": In response to why these supposed 'terrorists' left a trail of identification marks which would have made them sitting ducks, the police have a simple answer. They were over confident. (Indian Express, October 9) These boys (aged 17 years — 24 years) were so confident that they had their tenant verifications done in which they provided their genuine addresses; Atif had his driving license made by providing his genuine details; carried out blasts and returned home coolly to watch their exploits on television; felt no need to flee or change residences frequently; bought sim cards in their own names; registered as students in schools and institutions; sat for examinations midway through planning and executing blasts. And yet, these masterminds had no inkling of the special cell surveillance, and indeed helpfully stored material such as photographs of blast sites on their laptops and cell phones, so that their guilt could be proved promptly by the police whenever they were caught. Mr. Praveen Swami writes that that "the allegations leveled over the encounter tell us more about the critics than the event itself." Sure, we are skeptics, unwilling to lap up everything that comes forth from "police sources", senior or otherwise; but what does taking dictations from the Special Cell tell us about you, Mr. 'journalist'? Our doubts remain. Our questions unanswered. Only a time bound, independent inquiry under the sitting judge of the Supreme Court can illumine the truth. What does the Delhi Police and the Government have to fear if the truth is on their side? (Manisha Sethi) From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 20:41:13 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:41:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Opening J&K-PoK borders without Pakistan changing its policy is dangerous. Message-ID: <6353c690810120811m1879d575he4558315afef3987@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dr. Jagan N. Kaul Date: Oct 12, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: *KPNetwork* Opening J&K-PoK borders without Pakistan changing its policy is dangerous. *Letter against dangerous suggestion for making "Kashmir-PoK Borders Irrelevant"* ** *FORUM FOR SECULARISM & DEVELOPMENT (USA)* *3145 Gilbert Ave.**, Roseburg, OR 97471* Phone and Fax 1-541-957-841 October 11, 2008 Hon'ble Political Leaders, Hon'ble Community and Religious Leaders, and Hon'ble Nationalist activists: Subject:* Study by Peace Institute suggesting to make "Kashmir-PoK Borders Irrelevant" is toxic to National Security & dangerously misleading.* Being overwhelmingly influenced by naivety and an inherently impulsive mindset the Indian establishment seems once again at the verge of doing some thing extremely dangerous and highly unthinkable, i.e. opening the Kashmir border for free travel and trade not only with Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) but also with the Islamic republic itself. Utilizing its usual undemocratic and non-transparent mode of operation as a tool it has denied any role to the national Parliament, judiciary, media and above all to the Indian public for arriving at this risk laden, full of pitfalls decision of historic nature. Taking such adventurous decisions without analyzing costs and benefits, void of pragmatism and pregnant with enormous risks and threats to the welfare of the citizenry and the integrity of the state itself, is nothing new for the modern rulers of India. In the past, during the early years of India's independence, they similarly invoked the mantra of "Hindi China Bhai Bhai" signifying the great brotherly relations between India & China. In the ultimate context the outcome of that questionable philosophical dogma is universally known – loss of Tibet's independence and its occupation by the People's Republic of China (PRC); two Sino-Indian wars and loss of territory and its occupation by PRC in India's North Eastern Region; loss of territory and its occupation by PRC in J&K's Ladakh region. Recently even Nepal has fallen prey to the Chinese supported Maoists rendering the north-central India vulnerable to external penetration. But the official India, holding contempt for real democracy and transparency, intoxicated with absolute power, refuses to learn from its past mistakes. 1)*From its very inception, during the past sixty plus years, three full-fledged armed confrontations and the illegal occupation of nearly half of the J&K State, Pakistan's territorial, religious, demographic, economic, ideological and political war against India has never ended.* Even today when another armed conflict is only a matter of time, the Islamic State's entire politics continues to be organized around anti-Indianism and anti-Hinduism. Through its Jihad brigades and terrorists, Hindus by the thousands are killed and bomb blasts and violent agitations have become an every day phenomenon in the targeted country of India. The ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation of the properties of the dislodged people, murder of Hindus and destruction of their religious infrastructure is a common occurrence. The Indian Home Minister has confessed that there were upwards of 800 terrorist cells and other such networks existing and operating in every nook and corner of India. Needless to emphasize that all these outfits, which are capable of paralyzing if not blowing up India at will, are either directly created or indirectly supported by Islamabad. India can ignore these realities only at her own peril. Furthermore, has Pakistan taken any administrative, judicial, legislative or political measures towards normalizing the relationship with India? Has it defeated and outlawed any terrorist organizations? Has it abrogated the treaty with the Taliban establishing a virtual independent state for Al Qaeda in Waziristan? Has it defeated and captured Osama bin Laden, Ali Zachary and Mullah Omar, the worst enemies of USA & India? Has it outlawed Al Qaeda, Taliban, Mujahideen and other such outfits and put behind the bars their operatives? Did it declare a new policy to vacate the aggression and occupation of Kashmir? Did it declare Pak's intention to disband 25, 000 Madrassas, terrorist training camps, Jihad factories and Jihad itself as a tool for bringing about change? If the Islamic Republic has not taken any of these measures then why should India be foolishly so magnanimous and open her doors to welcome the members of the Wahabi culture from the epicenter of the Islamic Jihad? 2)* A few sugar coated words uttered by Pak's new President Mr. Zardari due to eco-political compulsions and internal volatility prevailing in his country and casually describing the Islamic separatists of Kashmir as "terrorists" does not represent the change of policy by the Islamic Republic*. Pakistan must take concrete administrative, judicial and legislative steps to destroy the Islamic, terrorist, and anti-India culture created and perpetuated during the past sixty years before expecting India to adopt an open door policy. Until then New Delhi must feel duty bound to strictly follow the policy of Ronald Regan towards Mr. Gorbachev's Russia - the policy of "trust but verify". Anything short of that will be foolhardy and outright dangerous for India. New Delhi cannot ignore the call for a "100 year war" against it and declarations to take Kashmir forcibly given by President Zardari's father-in-law and the former Pak-premier Z.A. Bhutto and a similar call given by his recently assassinated wife Benazir Bhutto. After all the new Pak President has not invented or made public any new magic approach for normalizing his country's relations with India? To stay in power he has no choice but to follow the populist policies formulated by his wife and father-in-law and those policies have always been anti-Kashmir, anti-India and anti-Hindus. 3)When the rest of the world including the super powers -- USA, UK, France, Germany, Russia, China, Australia, Israel, Canada, NATO above all the United Nations are engaged in effectively combating the Pak generated Islamic terrorists and are taking every conceivable action to destroy them and squeeze the life out of them how can India, whose security and territoriality are already in jeopardy, in the name of peace and friendship open her borders and doors to facilitate their entering and operating from her soil? Doesn't New Delhi realize that as the US led NATO forces increase their attacks on Taliban & Al Qaeda strong holds and use guided drones to blow them up both in and out side Afghanistan and Pakistan the only logical place for these subversives is to slip into India where they have already built self sustaining organizations and cultivated a mass support system. Opening the border posts for traffic, without first Pakistan having destroyed its terrorist organizations and their infrastructure under its jurisdiction, will actually facilitate and make considerably easier their transit into India which will in turn more seriously threaten India's peace, tranquility and safety of her people. 4)With intent to legitimize the reckless yet irrational decision of New Delhi a recent study "*Making Borders Irrelevant*," undertaken by the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies (IPCS), New Delhi, aided and published by the United States Institute of Peace (USIP), a research institute based in Washington DC with Pak researchers on board, exploring the possibility of permitting the cross-LoC trade from five crossing points in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K), has simply ignored the history of partition, Islamic violence, separatism and the goals of the Pan Islamic Movement in this region (Attachment A). The conclusion erroneously drawn by this politically motivated study supports Islamic Jihadists in their quest for eventual Talibanization and secession of J&K. The present truncated nature of J&K is the result of Pakistan's unprovoked aggression and occupation despite Kashmir's voluntary and enthusiastic accession to India. The Indian part of the state has been flourishing. If the other side has remained unattended to and backward that is due to Pakistan's intentional neglect and bad policies. The unification of the state can be realized by simply removing the illegal occupation by Pakistan. * 5) In their eagerness to draw the designated conclusion these ** unlettered** Institutes in New Delhi and Washington have completely ignored the Islamist crusade in Kashmir and its links with Pan-Islamic militancy and systematic terrorist violence spread by Pakistan and the mounting Jihadist terror attacks across India.* "*Making Borders Irrelevant*" is an idealistic objective but possible only where people of the neighborhood believe in equitable rule of Law, respect for each others boundaries and freedom of personal faith. There exists any thing but those characteristics in Islamic states. The conclusions of the study drawn under a scholastic façade seem intended to mislead the Hindus while engineering some Islamist pathways for advancing the cause of the exclusivist Dar- ul- Islam. If Borders could be made irrelevant or even porous why was Yugoslavia divided into seven tiny parts with dependable borders, East Timor separated from Indonesia and Pakistan and Bangladesh sliced away from India. Why is the US fortifying its long southern border with Mexico? In the sphere of "geopolitical world" the concept of irrelevant borders cuts at the very roots of sovereignty and territorial integrity of states. Additionally the inability of Islamists to coexist in peace with other religionists is well known. With contempt and animosity they call Hindus "*Kafirs*" and express hatred for their "*idolatrous*" ways. How can India with a population of 85% Hindus disregard this dangerous mindset and ideological indoctrination of Pakistani Islamists? In fact historically it was the religious intolerance and incompatibility of Islamists that was at the center of India's partition in 1947. * 6) Opening more travel & trade points (transit) will only make it easier for Jihadists to walk in and create havoc in India.* It must be noted that after the so-called normalization process enforced by UPA with Pakistan the infiltration of terrorists into India has multiplied. The Jihadists have created a formidable infrastructure in the country giving them capacity to attack anywhere anytime. Earlier they snuck into India through Nepal and Bangladesh but now they come by the bus, truck and train loads direct from the Islamic republic to Hindustan. Opening more points for trade across the line of control (LOC) without first neutralizing the culture of Jihad, anti Hinduism and anti-Indianism in Pakistan, will blow the security interests of India and the harmonious conduct of her civil society into the thin air. Overlooking these interests could take India back to the days of "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai" thus extracting from her an excruciatingly painful cost. Are Indians born to suffer due to the naivety of their decision makers? * 7) Currently the dominant issue in Kashmir is that of human rights violations and atrocities on Hindus and Sikhs* committed by Islamists and the total indifference exhibited by its Muslim led Govt. – an authority that did not allow even the use of 100 acres of land for building temporary shelters in summer for Amarnath bound Hindu pilgrims. The idealistic authors of the study ignore the fact that atrocities in Kashmir were actually committed by Islamists who killed tens of thousands of Hindus and Sikhs in the region since 1989 (over 65,000 by some estimates) and drove out more than 350,000 of them into exile, after thousands were tortured and maimed and thousands of Hindu females were molested and forcibly converted to Islam. This was in addition to the complete ethnic cleansing in PoK from where more than 700,000 Pandits, Dogras and Sikhs were driven by the Jihadis. India cannot forget the process of desecration, loot, vandalizing and destruction of Hindu temples that took place in J&K under the anti-Hindu Islamic rule through generations. The intent of committing these crimes was to wipe out all traces of religious and cultural symbols of Hindus. After Kashmir's accession to India the destruction of Hinduism and its infrastructure under the new Islamic regimes wearing secular turbans received added impetus and acceleration. Consequently during the past two decades with the help of Al Qaeda, Taliban and Pakistan trained terrorists hundreds of more temples were destroyed. * 8) Due to stringent measures taken in the US, not a single terrorist act has occurred after the devastating one on the World Trade Center in New York on September 11, 2001.* However, by comparison there have been relentless terrorist bomb explosions killing as many Hindus in India as Americans were in five years of war in Iraq. Apart from the multiple explosions in New Delhi major terrorist strikes have taken place in Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Ayodhya, Mumbai, Varanasi, Hyderabad, Malegaon, Panipat, Ajmer, Ludhiana, Lucknow, Faizabad, etc. killing Hindu men, women and children by the hundreds. In these terrorists attacks nothing not even Govt. offices, Parliament, court houses, hospitals, police, railway and bus stations and above all Hindu temples, homes and market places were spared. And now these crimes take place almost every day. Thanks to the Govt. failure in preventing the establishment of deep rooted terrorist networks, the bomb blasts in India with indigenous operators and materials seems to be happening regularly and the authorities are doing precious little to stop it. Of course as usual there is no dearth of condemnatory and bombastic statements by the people in charge blaming others for such violent acts. The official policy of indifference towards Hindus, who generally are the victims in these blasts, has made their blood the cheapest and risk free in the entire world. Unlike the US and other countries taking seriously and respecting the security and welfare of their citizens India has miserably failed in setting up even a national security or anti-terrorism wing for combating and uprooting this menace. 9) *Before giving any credence to the irrational academics dogma of "Irrelevant Borders" which inescapably supports the Islamists agenda, India's painful history and experience with inhumanities inflicted by Islamists must not be dismissed summarily.* Some of the treacherous examples of that genocidal era include: a) killing of 50-100 million Hindus during the 700 years of Islamists rule by terror, plunder, arson and building 98% of the Islamic population by forcible conversions; b) wiping out more than 20,000 people in Calcutta by Islamists in 1946 to force partition on Congress; c) Elimination of millions of Sikhs & Hindus during the partition in 1947; d) Putting to death over three million Hindus in East Pakistan; driving out some 9 million Bangladeshi Hindus into India; and the illegal infiltration by an additional 30 million Bangladeshi Muslims; e) Expulsion of the entire Hindu-Sikh population from Kashmir and PoK; f) Ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan where they are now less than 1% reduced from over 25% in 1947. In Bangladesh where the non-Muslims were more than 30% in 1947 they have been reduced to less than 8%. These one sided anti-Hindu crimes committed by Islamists do not justify India's unconditional change of policy towards Pakistan – the epicenter of Islamic terrorism, unless India too has a contempt for its population of which 85% is Hindu. (Foot notes 1 & 2) * 10)"The jihad in Kashmir by the terrorists is not just for independence. Its real goal is to form a Darul Islam with Kashmir as a part of the Caliphate.* Considering its implications upon the region and national security India cannot allow the emergence of such a lawless and militant entity at a close proximity to her frontiers. Therefore, the suggestion of parting with Kashmir is simply unthinkable. The constitutions of J&K State and India do not provide any provisions allowing separation of any part of the country. Accordingly India should concentrate on doing every thing possible to maintain it as an integral part of the country in which people of all ethnicities and religious formations particularly the Hindus (which include Pandits, Dogras, Buddhists & Sikhs) and Muslims can live in peace and harmony sharing power equally in its reorganized form. * 11) Hon'ble National Leaders and Activists:* These ultras have targeted the entire Indian subcontinent for Islamic subversion. Their goal is to destroy the very fabric of India's traditional society and culture. The citizens of the county must understand that the prescribed recommendation by the irrational and unlettered academics for making borders irrelevant has the potential of fundamentally altering the complexion of the ground realities to the detriment of India. Under the prevailing political environment when Kashmiri Muslims by the millions have marched in city centers, villages and towns raising slogans like "we are Pakistanis and Pakistan is ours" while carrying Pakistani flags and burning the tri-colors, opening the doors for their possible integration with Pakistanis will effectively lead Kashmir into the enemy Islamic camp thus irreparably harming the country's sovereignty and territoriality. In such an environment opening the gates to the Islamists and terrorists under the garb of free travel and trade, without conditions and without first seeking a radical political, ideological and policy transformation in Pakistan for shunning her claim on Kashmir and for renouncing her anti-India and anti-Hindu policies, could be tantamount to a repeat grand betrayal of mother India. Patriotic Indians cannot and must not allow such a transformation to take place at any cost. Because the Hurriyat, the multi-party conglomerate (Islamists) in Kashmir, is an organization that cannot go against Pakistan, India has a very short period of time at her disposal, as suggested by Dr. Subramanian Swamy, to prepare for a decisive and defining war with Pakistan and she must plan and prepare to win it to avoid the balkanization of the country. She should, therefore, refute those Indian columnists, academicians and politicians who are desperately desirous and are seeking being popular in Pakistan by sounding reasonable and secular on the issue of Kashmir. 12)*"Kashmir is our defining identity and a touchstone for our resolve to preserve our national integrity.* The population of that state may be majority Muslim, but the land and its history is pre-dominantly Hindu. For our commitment to the survival of the ancient civilization of India and the composite culture that secularists talk about, we have not only to win that coming inevitable war but also to never part with Kashmir" (Subramanian Swamy). Furthermore, we could not be oblivious of Pakistan's overwhelming expenditure on military and her obsession for a war with India. Therefore, the cleverly designed tactical move aiding the Islamists agenda for "irrelevant borders" through irrational and unlettered Institutes must summarily be rejected as it will alienate the Muslims of Kashmir and make them vulnerable for being gobbled up by the Pan Islamic Movement. It might even trigger a domino effect and encourage a chain of secessions leading to the eventual disintegration of India. At this pivotal point in the history of modern India the brave people of Jammu, during the recent unprecedented struggle on Shri Amarnath Land issue, have shown the way for preventing such a thing from happening. Dr. Jagan Kaul Krishan Bhatnagar Forum for Secularism and Development (USA) October 11, 2008 email: *krishan.kb at verizon.net* Note: This message will soon be posted on : *http://www.bharatjagran.com/* ============== Footnote 1: *The Leaders and the public must beware of the Islamists subtle moves: *"A will to eliminate the weeds and face the wrath of malevolent elements with the confidence of a victor is the prerequisite to be a ruler and, yes, to be a citizen. If it's there, you build a nation. If not, civilizations vanish. If citizens encourage and harbour the wicked, forget dates like December 13 that should be remembered, forget to take revenge on anti-nationals, continue with their late-night parties when dead bodies of their fellow citizens lie splattered in busy fashion markets, no one can save that deadwood society" (Tarun Vijay). Footnote 2: *The single line, "Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah" -- "Non - Violence is the greatest Dharma" in its over - emphasis, has sapped both initiative and energy in our millions, *and, instead of making us all irresistible moral giants, we have been reduced to poltroons and cowards. And banking on this cowardly resignation of the majority, a handful of fanatics have been perpetrating crimes which even the most barbarous cave dwellers would have avenged. ..........Today when looting, arson and rape are the dharma of a few, it is rank cowardice for the many to suffer the tyranny of the unprovoked violence in meek submission. In the battlefield, when violence is rampant, it is the dharma of everyone to meet that maniacal violence with determined, restrained, violence not only in self - defence but also to convince the aggressive vicious few that 'it rarely pays to be violent.' (Swami Chinmayananda, Attachment B). ============================================== Attachment A *From**:* Kavita Suri *Sent:* Friday, October 03, 2008 3:44 AM *Subject:*VERY IMPORTANT IPCS PRESS RELEASE * *VERY IMPORTANT IPCS PRESS RELEASE *"Permit cross-LoC trade from five crossing points in J&K", suggests a joint Indo-Pak study* NEW DELHI, OCT 03: While India and Pakistan are all set to start cross-LoC trade from Uri-Muzaffarabad and Poonch-Rawalakote roads from October 21 later this month, a recent study supported by a US-based research institute has suggested exploring the possibility of permitting the cross-LoC trade from five crossing points in Jammu and Kashmir which were opened for earthquake relief when a massive quake had hit the region in 2005. "The possibility of border trade being permitted at the five crossing points opened for earthquake relief is worth exploring for the convenience of people living on both sides of the LOC," recommends the research study entitled, "Making Borders Irrelevant," undertaken by the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies (IPCS), New Delhi, supported and published by the United States Institute of Peace (USIP), a research institute based in Washington DC. Making an interesting observation for "border trade", which is different from normal bilateral trade, the study says that the roads that lead to these crossing points could be upgraded to permit truck traffic, assuming that such traffic is found to be commercially viable and official fears about smuggling can be overcome. Besides looking into the traditional export route for timber from the Valley before partition, which was through the Jhelum river, which flows into Pakistan, the study also asks to explore the possibilities of riverine transportation, as Cross-LoC cooperation in this area might prove productive, though the river would need considerable de-silting before it could once again carry significant traffic. Undertaken by two leading scholars from India and Pakistan - PR Chari, a Research Professor at the IPCS, a leading think tank in New Delhi and Hasan Askari Rizvi, a leading defence expert from Pakistan who is now a visiting a Professor in Washington DC, this study is supported by two parallel surveys carried out by Suba Chandran and Rashid Khan, on both sides of the Line of Control. Calling for re-opening of pilgrimage routes on all parts of J&K, including Ladakh and Northern Areas, the study also suggests the "the establishment of rail links between Jammu and Sialkot, and between Srinagar and Muzaffarabad (and from there onward to Abbotabad and Rawalpindi)." Regarding cross-LoC travels, it asks the governments of India and Pakistan to expand the eligibility criteria to include other categories of travelers such as tourists, persons requiring medical treatment, traders, and even dissident political leaders. Besides, it says that there is also a need to simplify permit procedure, through shortening the process of obtaining travel documentation. Chari and Rizvi make recommendations under four broad categories: promoting people-to-people contact; increasing trade and commerce across the LoC; encouraging humanitarian aid and development; and improving governance, including security administration. The study provides specific recommendations under each of the above four categories. Under promoting people to people contacts between the two parts of J&K, the study concludes, "the roads do not presently carry enough traffic to make commercial bus services viable, but their opening would allow people to move across the LOC by private transport and might eventually generate enough traffic to permit commercial bus services." The study is based on the premise that "neither India nor Pakistan has been able to impose its preferred solution on the long-standing Kashmir conflict, and both sides have gradually shown more flexibility in their traditional positions on Kashmir, without officially abandoning them. This development has encouraged the consideration of new, creative approaches to the management of the conflict." The study also recommends a multi-campus university straddling the LoC. According to Chari and Rizvi, "two campuses could be situated in Muzaffarabad and Srinagar, with other campuses established subsequently in other cities on both sides of the LOC. This would facilitate the exchange of teachers and students." This report also calls for the restoration of telephone landlines that were cut in 1965, besides asking for an expansion of mobile telephone services across the LoC. Even today, people in J&K are not allowed to make direct telephone calls across the LoC. According to the authors of the study, "this prohibition makes little sense, for calls can of course be made via mobile phones and satellite-linked communications." Besides, the study also calls for enhanced access to the Internet on both sides of the LOC, as it "would greatly stimulate contact between people on both sides of the border, allowing them to exchange e-mail, post and respond to blogs, and stay abreast of developing news stories." More importantly, internet access would also allow journalists for electronic and print media to develop closer cross-border contacts with one another. Also, television programs broadcast from one side of the LOC can usually be watched on the other side, and some attract large audiences, reflecting the common culture of the people on both sides of the LOC. The study also considers sharing of information between both parts of J&K on weather conditions, seismic activity, and flow of water in rivers, which will help to generate early warnings of floods and other natural disasters. Such cooperation, the report says, could evolve into a long-term process of monitoring and researching the retreat of glaciers, the incidence of earthquakes, and other environmental concerns. The study says, "No steps, whether short term or long term, can be taken until the tensions between India and Pakistan erode. This will not happen suddenly. The reality is that India-Pakistan relations cannot be dramatically improved over the short run, nor can all their outstanding problems be resolved quickly. Unrealistic expectations that progress in making borders irrelevant in Kashmir will be swift and that India-Pakistan relations will rapidly improve could lead to frustrations. Moreover, the task of making borders irrelevant in Kashmir cannot be considered in isolation from ongoing efforts to do the same thing elsewhere along the international border between India and Pakistan." "As all sides are coming to recognize, the present borders cannot be changed, but they can be made more porous, and a larger measure of self-governance devolved" to both J&K and PoK," the study concludes. - ----- For any further information, please contact Dr. D. Suba Chandran, Deputy Director, IPCS, *subachandran at gmail.com*, 91-11-4100-1900 (O) & 93126-80858 (M) _________________________________________________ *KAVITA SURI ** Ph.D* Associate Professor/Assistant Director Centre for Adult, Continuing Education & Extension (CACE&E) University of Jammu, Jammu, J&K, India www.jammuuniversity.in/academics_aeducation.asp - -------------------- *Columnist* The Statesman, J&K, India - ------------------------------ *Editor-in-Chief* Kashmir Perspective A weekly print & an online daily newspaper of J&K www.kashmirperspective.org ========================================= Attachment B *http://www.chinmaya.org.nz/Articles/Swami%20Chinmayananda/11.htm* *DHARMA HIMSA TATHAIVA CA* by Swami Chinmayananda Personally, I am no advocate of violence. But violence, too, has its rightful place in life, life does not preclude death. The average Indian has been moulded into a particular national mentality of quixotic tolerance. His attitude is shaped into its distinct pattern by the ideologies and moralities preached in our national literature. And no single work in our classics has gained such a wide influence on our people as the Bhagawad Gita: and in, this century, no other single message had such a universal appeal to our countrymen as the single line, "Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah" -- "Non - Violence is the greatest Dharma." This line in its over - emphasis, has sapped both initiative and energy in our millions, and, instead of making us all irresistible moral giants, we have been reduced to poltroons and cowards. And banking on this cowardly resignation of the majority, a handful of fanatics have been perpetrating crimes which even the most barbarous cave dwellers would have avenged. To clothe our weaknesses, we attribute to them glorious names and purposefully persuade ourselves to believe that they are brilliant ideologists ! Let us for a moment go to the original sacred verse and investigate the significances of the moral precept: Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah. This is the opening line of a stanza, and the very next line reads: Dharma himsaa tathaiva cha. "So too is all righteous violence." Indeed, non - violence is the supreme policy to be adopted by man to foster enduring peace in the world; but there are certain dire moments in the life of individuals, as of nations, when we will have to meet force with force in order that justice be done. To every individual his mother, wife and children are the nearest dependents and to guard their honour and life is the unavoidable first moral duty of each head of the family. This is an obligation whether the victim be a member of the majority or of the minority class within a country, province or city. By the over - emphasis laid on non - violence we have come to witness the pathetic situation of today, when thousands, in cowardly fear take to precipitate flight, leaving their innocent children to be butchered and their unarmed helpless women to be dishonoured or converted or killed. Under the cloak of glorified non - violence, an entire nation of cowards fly from their homes, when a small sect of fanatic barbarians boldly stalk in and out of their open undefended thresholds to kill, to rape, and to loot. When will we learn to fully interpret our Vedas, scriptures and Upanishads. If only we all learn that dharma - himsa is equally noble as ahimsa. To me it seems that the only solution for the day's internal chaos is to bring home to the people the significance of the much neglected teaching of dharma - himsa. As it is, a misled and over - excited minority in the country has the sole monopoly of violence; and non - violence is a dangerous folly. However ideal a moral precept may be, so long as, in a society, innocent children, helpless women and defenceless old are left to be butchered dishonoured and tortured, while the youth of the land is made to watch impassionately the hellish scene, we are to conclude that either the idea is a dangerous one, or that we have not rightly understood the full meaning of the precept. Under the present available scheme of chaos in this country, when under the planned instigation of a few power blind, reckless men, a minority community is rendered into a murderous gang of fanatics, it is the duty of the majority to win back the erring thousands. The cure depends upon the disease; the potency of the medicine is decided upon the virulence of the illness. Today when looting, arson and rape are the dharma of a few, it is rank cowardice for the many to suffer the tyranny of the unprovoked violence in meek submission. In the battlefield, when violence is rampant, it is the dharma of everyone to meet that maniacal violence with determined, restrained, violence not only in self - defence but also to convince the aggressive vicious few that 'it rarely pays to be violent.' __,_._,___ From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 21:12:23 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:12:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aditya I would simply like to ask you one question (since you consider Praveen Swamy as a great journalist and renowned expert of security and all): The police is not allowing any one (and I mean ANYONE) to meet the accused boys arrested from Batla House - they did not allow the lawyer, nor the relatives of the accused until the Delhi high court gave a judgment that they should be allowed to meet for one hour. Then the relatives and the lawyer Prashant Bhushan could meet only once for a few minutes. The police also did not allow any journalist or TV crew to enter the L-18 flat until now. In such a situation, how can somebody like Praveen Swamy (or Mihir Srivastava of India Today, who promptly took a cover-story interview) have such a deep access to the secrets of Special Cell? Did they find all this out by some sting-operation? Or are they above law? Or are they the mouthpieces of the Police? Or are they copywriting all these stories and feeding to the state? The 3 accused were presented to the media with their faces hidden in Arab scarves. They were presented to the court (for extension of remand) with muffled faces. But their faces were exhibited openly for INDIA TODAY cover story! Wow, is this country being run by Prabhu Chawla? Give us a break Mr. Praveen Swami and Prabhu Chawla. Or at least show us the "Mind of the Terror" from Orissa and Bangalore too, if you are the upholders of unbiased journalism. J On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal security > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have been > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise their > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came out > in today's newspaper. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > *Behind the Batla House shootout > * Praveen Swami * > > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. > > * > > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, "I've > believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." > > Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have > been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent students, > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators and > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some reason, > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell the > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient honest > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also > killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. > > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, mundane. > > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat where > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It turned > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. > > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators > determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the perpetrators > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, > calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and July > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became active > again in Ahmedabad. > > The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the Ahmedabad > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — the > sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after this, > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope that > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough > last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the > investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad left > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this > information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. > 'Vodaphone salesman' > > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up the > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and > shirt, just like other membersof Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and > called his boss. > > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the two > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped corridor > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as they > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. > When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. > > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, combat > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla House-style > operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their resources > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. > > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting through > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted with > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. > > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's shirt > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, too, > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have been > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, > by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More > important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" > representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that there > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi violence; > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." > > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the Jamia > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. Much > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit > in which the lies have bred. > > *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > * > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From saminamishra at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 08:30:02 2008 From: saminamishra at gmail.com (Samina Mishra) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:30:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India Today and Being Muslim Message-ID: <8ced26e0810112000y2d887072lc03d2e7c23c7b20d@mail.gmail.com> This is a piece I wrote for India Today but the version that has appeared in the magazine is an edit that I did not agree to. It's not clear to me how that happened since I edited the longer article down to this final version and sent it in to them. But the magazine is out and I am both angry and saddened at their careless editing of ideas that are particularly under siege at this point of time. So, here is my edit and I would be glad if it was circulated widely on the net - more widely than the magazine! Samina Not far from L18, in the posh part of Jamia Nagar, is a house on a tree-lined avenue that will always be home to me. But my life, with all its easy privileges, could not be more different from Atif and Sajid's, the two young men shot as alleged terrorists at L18. I contain multitudes, Whitman so eloquently said. But we live in a time when even multitudes are forced to lay claim to a singular label. And so by writing this, perhaps, I will forever be labelled the voice of the liberal secular Muslim. A voice that is accused of not speaking up. Ironically, it is this very tyranny of labels that grants me this space in a mainstream national magazine. As someone with a Muslim first name and a Hindu surname, I suppose I have always swung between labels - a poster girl for communal harmony or a confused, rootless individual, depending on who was doing the labelling. I went to a public school and have never worn a burkha. I might escape being thrown in the big cauldron with "Islamic Terrorists" but I will certainly be added to the one for "misguided intellectuals". While there is no mistaking that it is zealous nationalists who seek to light the fire under the first cauldron, the other is a bone of contention between those who seek to define for me how to be Indian and those who seek to define for me how to be Muslim. My condemnation of the demolition of the Babri Masjid, Imrana's rape or the media circus around Gudiya will always be seen in the context of my privileged background, my gender, my religious identity. Perhaps, it can be no other way. In this rhetoric of binaries of "us and them", it is difficult to find the space to create a new paradigm of discussion. And so, in conversations that throw up Islamic terrorists, rigid religious beliefs, Pakistan and madrasas, the response is inevitably another set of questions - why is the Bajrang Dal not labelled a terrorist outfit, why is the growing public display of Hindu festivals like Navratras and Karva Chauth not considered rigid religious beliefs, why should Muslims in India be answerable for what goes on in Pakistan, what spaces other than madrasas are available for thousands of believing Muslims who choose to get educated and still retain their Muslim-ness. As a Muslim in India today, not only are you fighting to shrug off the label of fundamentalist- if not terrorist - but you are also succumbing to a paradigm of dialogue which has been set for homogenous communities with clear markers of identities. But how does one fight that when shared cultural spaces, other than those created by the market, shrink? How does one speak of the diversity of being Indian when Diwali is celebrated in schools and Eid just in Muslim homes? How does one avoid a singular label for experiences that are diverse and yet have a common thread running through them - the experience of a tailor in Ahmedabad whose Hindu patrons have stopped giving work to, the butcher in Batla House who couldn't get a bank loan, the software professional who will now have to watch every single byte that leaves his computer. Being Muslim in India today means many things to many people. But how easy it is to forget that one fundamental reality. How easy it is to say, as someone said to me after the Delhi blasts - "These are all educated Muslims. Don't they know that their bombs can also kill their own?" As if everyone with a Muslim name is a terrorist's very "own". Samina Mishra / October 2008 -- So much is unfolding that must complete its gesture, so much is in bud. Samina Mishra 264/1, Gulmohar Avenue Jamia Nagar New Delhi 25 Tel 91 11 26832030 Fax 91 11 26928553 saminamishra at gmail.com From iram at sarai.net Sun Oct 12 22:27:49 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:27:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Screening: 'Swapnabhumi' film by Tanvir Mokammel@SAA Message-ID: <48F22C8D.1080305@sarai.net> fwd================= School of Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University Presents Tanvir Mokammel With his Film Swapnabhumi (The Promised Land) A Documentary on the Urdu-speaking community of Bangladesh - also known as "stranded Pakistanis" or "Biharis" - who live in a situation of "statelessness" in Bangladesh. The film goes back to the painful partition of India in 1947 and the ensuing mass migration of peoples. At the SAA Auditorium Wednesday, 15th October at 4.30 p.m A Discussion with the Director chaired by Professor Tanika Sarkar will follow the Screening From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 22:33:07 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:03:07 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: GreenLeft's Guide to Wall Street Meltdown Message-ID: http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/770/39726 A guide to the Wall Street meltdown From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 23:11:34 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:11:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4fcaee300810121041w12eb3f60v9a0363f6c38ded96@mail.gmail.com> I wish Swami Ji also reads it! Best "Our doubts remain. Our questions unanswered. Only a time bound, independent inquiry under the sitting judge of the Supreme Court can illumine the truth. What does the Delhi Police and the Government have to fear if the truth is on their side?" Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group Some Questions for the Delhi Police and Embedded 'Journalists' The last few days have seen the Delhi Police "returning fire" at the critics of the Jamia Nagar encounter. Pressured by the mounting skepticism about police claims, the Delhi Police have now responded with a new round of theories and stories, which nevertheless remain as riddled with holes, as their earlier version(s). *Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group *responds to the latest Police claims. *1) The police was caught by surprise. Or was it?* In its response to the questions being raised by the civil society, the police say, "the presence of armed terrorists took them by surprise." "The police did not expect an encounter at L- 18." *(Indian Express *October 9) However, Praveen Swami in his "Alice in wonderland" article in *The Hindu *(October 10) writes that "the investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault armed squad left Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar." Further he says, "the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person." *Surely, there can be only one truth:* a) The police knew that a "top commander" and his "armed assault team "was residing in L- 18 (as claimed confidently by Swami). In which case, the Special Cell's almost cavalier approach is inexplicable — unless we accept Swami's contention that Inspector Sharma's team did as well as it could "given their resources and training". While Swami and his ilk may rue the lack of "state of the art surveillance equipment" that can be found in United States or Europe, surely, even Third World police can use, upon knowledge that "dreaded terrorists" are holed up in a house, methods such as sealing the building, and making public announcements asking them to surrender. b) The Police went to L-18 merely for investigation and was ambushed. In which case, isn't it surprising that it took them only a few hours to crack nearly all cases of bomb blasts that have occurred across the country? It was of course inconvenient for UP, Gujarat, Rajasthan and Maharashtra state police, who had been claiming their own successes in uncovering their 'masterminds'. The Police commissioner Y.S. Dadwal announced at a news conference the same day that "Atif was the mastermind behind all the recent serial blasts," and that he had plotted the Saturday blasts... was also involved in the Ahmedabad blasts on July 26, Jaipur blasts on May 13, and one of the August 25 blasts last year in Hyderabad. Sajid was described as bomb-maker. "Explosives made by him and his team bore their signature — two detonators, wooden frame, ammonium nitrate and analog quartz clocks," Dadwal said *(HindustanTimes, *20 September). The question is that, the Police which did not even expect an 'encounter' in the morning, was able to say with confidence that the bombs used in Delhi blasts bore the 'signature' of the slain Sajid by evening. *The Police must pick one of these 'truths'. It cannot claim both to be true **simultaneously.* *2) The puzzle of the Bullet Proof Jacket* Again, the Delhi Police has not made up its mind on this one. JCP, Karnail Singh and Deputy Commissioner of Police (Special Cell) Alok Kumar have reiterated that the Special Cell team members were not wearing BPVs. ["Entering a crowded locality would alert the suspects and give them time to escape" *{Indian Express *Oct 9); "To maintain secrecy in a cramped area like Batla House." (*Tehelka *Oct 4)]*.* *However, now we are also told that some police men were wearing Bullet proof vests.* This new version has appeared following the outcry after the publication of pictures of Sajid's body, which clearly show that he had been shot repeatedly in the head. Such bullet injuries suggest that he could have been killed from extreme close range while he was crouching or kneeling. This it self raises a huge question mark over the 'encounter'. "Senior police sources" now claim that Sajid was "lying on the floor when he opened fire at a cop. The cop, unlike Inspector Sharma, was wearing a bulletproof vest. He retaliated by firing a burst from his AK-47, which hit Sajid on his head." *(Times of India, *Oct 8). Neat. It explains why and how Sajid was killed. And also, why the cop in question was not as much as injured when Sajid was supposedly firing at him. But it doesn't square with the line the Delhi Police have been pushing up till now, that Inspector Sharma's men did *not *deliberately wear bullet proof vests. Nor with the claim that the Special team was "armed only with small arms". (The Hindu, October *1*0) *Nonetheless, the Delhi Police must clearly make up its mind if the cops that day were wearing Bullet proof vests or not?* *3) Corroborative evidence?* Believe it or not, the evidence in support of their claim that the boys living in L-18 were terrorists, the police presents a *bucket, adhesive tape and a bag! **(Indian Express, *Oct 9). The bucket was used to keep bombs (but was presumably empty at the time of'seizure'); the adhesive tape was used to seal the explosives (!!!); and finally the bag was used to carry the bombs (but again presumably empty when the police 'recovered' it). Let it be noted that legal requirements were flouted with regard to seizures. The police is required to prepare a seizure list of all items recovered from the site and it should be attested by two public witnesses unconnected with the police. Given that a huge crowd had gathered at the site, surely, the police could have sought the assistance of members of the public. And why does L-18 continue to remain sealed? 4) *Injuries and Bullets:* Photographs of the bodies of Atif and Sajid, taken during the ritual bathing before burial clearly indicate injury marks on the bodies. These marks could definitely not have been caused by bullets. The skin on Atif s back is ripped off. What caused these injury marks? Were they captured before they were eliminated? The Police is now citing the elusive post mortem report, saying that the two did not have any injuries on them apart from those caused by bullets, in order to buttress their claim of the "shootout being genuine". *(TOI, *Oct 9). The documentary proof of the existence of such marks on the bodies however belies their claims. Rattled by the photographs of an injured Inspector Sharma being escorted from the L-18 building, where no blood stain is visible on the front, the Police have stated that he was hit from the front as "one bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the left arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting through the hip." *(The Hindu, *October 10) For this reason, they argue, the bleeding was from the back—the points of exit. However, according to a senior doctor who conducted the postmortem on Inspector MC Sharma at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, "It was difficult to establish the entry and exit points of the bullet because conclusive evidence had been wiped out by the interventions of the doctors at Holy Family [where Sharma was rushed to]." *(Tehelka, *October 4). But at least one enthusiastic journalist doesn't stop here. He tells us that the "abdomen wound was inflicted with Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid". And how does he know? "The investigators believe that." *(The Hindu, *October 10)And he believes the investigators. Has he seen a copy of the post mortem? Or the videography of the post mortem? What bullets were fired upon Inspector Sharma? What was the weapon that killed Sajid and Atif? *Why are the post mortem reports of Inspector Sharma and Atif and Sajid not being **made public?* *5 "Over confident terrorists":* In response to why these supposed 'terrorists' left a trail of identification marks which would have made them sitting ducks, the police have a simple answer. They were over confident. *(Indian Express, *October 9) These boys (aged 17 years — 24 years) were so confident that they had their tenant verifications done in which they provided their genuine addresses; Atif had his driving license made by providing his genuine details; carried out blasts and returned home coolly to watch their exploits on television; felt no need to flee or change residences frequently; bought sim cards in their own names; registered as students in schools and institutions; sat for examinations midway through planning and executing blasts. And yet, these masterminds had no inkling of the special cell surveillance, and indeed helpfully stored material such as photographs of blast sites on their laptops and cell phones, so that their guilt could be proved promptly by the police whenever they were caught. Mr. Praveen Swami writes that that "the allegations leveled over the encounter tell us more about the critics than the event itself." Sure, we are skeptics, unwilling to lap up everything that comes forth from "police sources", senior or otherwise; but what does taking dictations from the Special Cell tell us about you, Mr. 'journalist'? Our doubts remain. Our questions unanswered. Only a time bound, independent inquiry under the sitting judge of the Supreme Court can illumine the truth. What does the Delhi Police and the Government have to fear if the truth is on their side? ** * Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group* On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal > security > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have been > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise their > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came > out > in today's newspaper. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > *Behind the Batla House shootout > * Praveen Swami * > > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. > > * > > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, "I've > believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." > > Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have > been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent students, > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators and > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some reason, > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell the > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient > honest > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also > killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. > > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, mundane. > > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat where > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It turned > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. > > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators > determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the perpetrators > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, > calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and July > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became > active > again in Ahmedabad. > > The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the > Ahmedabad > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — > the > sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after this, > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope > that > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough > last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the > investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad > left > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this > information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. > 'Vodaphone salesman' > > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up > the > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and > shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and > called his boss. > > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the two > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped > corridor > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as > they > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. > When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. > > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, combat > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla > House-style > operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their > resources > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. > > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting > through > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted > with > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. > > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's > shirt > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, too, > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have been > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, > by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More > important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" > representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that > there > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi violence; > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." > > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the > Jamia > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. Much > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit > in which the lies have bred. > > *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > * > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 00:14:14 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:14:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810121144g618e9a96u97917388d1dfdbba@mail.gmail.com> Javed bhai, Aadab. The discussion was on the authenticity of the encounter; which as clearly visible is being deviated to post-encounter period now. So, I suppose we can only go ahead when all agree that Encounter was no doubt genuine and bravely fought by our martyr Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma. Thanks for your silent support :-) Now, coming to your queries there after. I consider Praveen Swami an excellent writer and intelligence expert of Terrorism and to some extent also on Kashmir. However, this does not mean, I'm there to defend him every time. So, maybe you can direct these questions to him on his e-mail or else to "The Hindu" newspaper; which was the lone newspaper to have the guts to publish the truth so blunt apart from a few hindi dailies. Since, The terrorists who have been arrested from Jamia or elsewhere are lodged in a sensitive prison inside Asia's largest prison; you do have some security concerns to address. At the same time, they are not VIP's on some tour to the Jail, that your ANYONE can meet them ANYTIME. There are a few visits allowed per week to certain amount of people including lawyers and they need to take prior permission. If there were problems faced in meeting them, its very unfortunate; and I think this is more so an administrative problem. Even I was arrested sometime back and lodged inside a Jail; even I wasn't permitted to a lawyer or to directly interact with relatives personally for hours. This surely is a serious concern and needs to be addressed. Its a shame that Govt. doesn't take steps in this regard. Agreeing to the above, at the same time we can't take this out of bounds to compare this with Human Rights, Biased Government and anti-state rhetoric. Enough of that crap. Get above all this Drama now. Prashant Bhushan isn't the loan lawyer; just to fill you up with information. There a few more, though young and even they faced tough time; but did manage to meet the terrorists lodged inside the Jail and take necessary signatures and details from them. If L-18 hasn't been open to media, then again its a sad story. But, I think now there is less of Police force around the area and the people are back to normal routine. Its unfortunate some elements tried to instigate communal tension in the area. Fortunately, nothing happened. The questions about India Today, can be best addressed to them. They were the one's to invite Terrorist Yasin Malik to the India Today Conclave a few months back,Do I need say more ? Pravin Swami's information was based on whatever intelligence information Police shared with media from time to time. To add to this, obviously senior Journalists and experts no doubt have sources in the Government, Police etc. This isn't an old news. Faces of accused is covered for their benefit alone. Don't see a reason why it bothers you ? These are simple excuses to just corner the state and the Police for just no reason. Just to fan imaginary anti-Muslim wave, all this is being done. I made rest of the things amply clear in my last e-mail; please do go through it. Journalism these days is all about biased editorials, bought news articles and market. How do you expect a Terrorist Yasin Malik to get so much attention in media then ? Give me a break too Sir, most media groups are hell bent on proving this encounter as fake; which till now they have failed to. How will they possibly hide the truth ? Brave M.C. Sharma did a fabulous job. You have seen Amar Singh and others. Who is the next politician hunting for votes ? This is all about Muslim Appeasement. On 14th Sept. Muslim clerics are meeting to disuss this sudden so called Muslim terrorising thing. Note: The PM himself has said no to probe. What more can you do ? Arundhati Roy may pose for shutter bugs by visiting her friends in Jamia; but that won't help. It just exposes their corrupt mindset and divisive policies. Instigating Muslims is what they can do most, only to widen the gap. How will this result in PEACE ? Wake Up !!!! Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/12/08, Javed wrote: > > Dear Aditya > I would simply like to ask you one question (since you consider > Praveen Swamy as a great journalist and renowned expert of security > and all): > > The police is not allowing any one (and I mean ANYONE) to meet the > accused boys arrested from Batla House - they did not allow the > lawyer, nor the relatives of the accused until the Delhi high court > gave a judgment that they should be allowed to meet for one hour. Then > the relatives and the lawyer Prashant Bhushan could meet only once for > a few minutes. The police also did not allow any journalist or TV crew > to enter the L-18 flat until now. In such a situation, how can > somebody like Praveen Swamy (or Mihir Srivastava of India Today, who > promptly took a cover-story interview) have such a deep access to the > secrets of Special Cell? Did they find all this out by some > sting-operation? Or are they above law? Or are they the mouthpieces of > the Police? Or are they copywriting all these stories and feeding to > the state? > > The 3 accused were presented to the media with their faces hidden in > Arab scarves. They were presented to the court (for extension of > remand) with muffled faces. But their faces were exhibited openly for > INDIA TODAY cover story! Wow, is this country being run by Prabhu > Chawla? > > Give us a break Mr. Praveen Swami and Prabhu Chawla. Or at least show > us the "Mind of the Terror" from Orissa and Bangalore too, if you are > the upholders of unbiased journalism. > > > J > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal > security > > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have > been > > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least > > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise > their > > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came > out > > in today's newspaper. > > > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > *Behind the Batla House shootout > > * Praveen Swami * > > > > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. > > > > * > > > > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, > "I've > > believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." > > > > Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics > have > > been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent > students, > > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators > and > > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have > > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the > > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like > this: > > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim > > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some > reason, > > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell > the > > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient > honest > > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also > > killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him > live. > > > > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, > mundane. > > > > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat > where > > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two > > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident > > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in > > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy > > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the > > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It > turned > > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. > > > > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators > > determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the > perpetrators > > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that > > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, > > calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and > July > > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had > been > > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, > all > > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became > active > > again in Ahmedabad. > > > > The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the > Ahmedabad > > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone > > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — > the > > sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after > this, > > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, > > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted > a > > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope > that > > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > > > > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough > > last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing > > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the > > investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad > left > > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this > > information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either > > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. > Inspector > > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. > > 'Vodaphone salesman' > > > > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up > the > > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and > > shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a > > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and > > called his boss. > > > > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the > two > > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. > > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped > corridor > > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as > they > > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. > > When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to > > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded > > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. > > > > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. > > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, > combat > > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla > House-style > > operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit > > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their > resources > > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. > > > > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family > > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India > > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two > > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through > the > > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting > through > > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted > with > > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. > > > > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's > shirt > > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was > > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from > > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop > > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having > > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, > too, > > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > > > > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more > > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have > been > > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than > not, > > by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More > > important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious > > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently > > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > > > > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic > > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" > > representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that > there > > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to > > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on > Israel, > > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three > nations > > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi > violence; > > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." > > > > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the > Jamia > > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. > Much > > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and > deceit > > in which the lies have bred. > > > > *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > > > * > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 00:18:01 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:18:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congress on disinformation campaign against pro-nationalists: BJP In-Reply-To: <6353c690810121147x2a6e0478sf44bb9e11bdfafb4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810121147x2a6e0478sf44bb9e11bdfafb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810121148i5831925fwe5143b5f4581d1ba@mail.gmail.com> Congress on disinformation campaign against pro-nationalists: BJP PTI Jammu, Oct 12: Signalling the start of its political campaign ahead of the Assembly Elections, BJP on Sunday launched a tirade against Congress by charging the party with carrying out "machinations and disinformation campaigns" against pro-nationalist forces. "We caution the people of Jammu region against machinations and disinformation campaign being carried out against pro-nationalist forces -- Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangrash Samiti (SAYSS) and BJP. It is being done by Congress," BJP state president Ashok Kahjuria told a public rally here. Khajuria said Congress, in its "disinformation campaign", accuses BJP of being not sincere while the fact is that "almost every Congress minister had been under investigation for corruption and financial misconduct by the vigilance department and the accountability commission". Coming down sharply on Congress state president Saif-uddin Soz, Khajuria, who was flanked by former state party presidents -- Chaman Lal Gupta and Nirmal Singh – said till two years back, the Kashmir region was secular but has ceased to be so. Jammu is secular and remains so till date, he said adding that Soz did not feel pained for secularism when minority Kashmiri Pandits were hounded out of the Valley and their houses burnt and destroyed. "The Pandit incident was worst kind of ethnic cleansing in post-Independence era. The recent public movement over Amarnath issue is the outcome of the Congress and its erstwhile Chief Minister Gulam Nabi Azad," he said. "The restoration of land to the Amarnath shrine board cannot be termed as communal as all people, including Muslims and Sikhs of the Jammu region, stood by the agitation," he said. Khajuria appealed to the people of the region to get united and claimed only BJP can restart the trend of Jammu empowerment "in a manner similar to the path taken by the people of Jammu during the Amarnath agitation". From rana at ranadasgupta.com Mon Oct 13 08:48:28 2008 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:48:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Orissa Crisis (forwarded from Felix Padel) Message-ID: <48F2BE04.6080803@ranadasgupta.com> Dear Friends It's hard to summarise the crises hitting Orissa all at oince. The bare statistics is: 180,000 people displaced by floods 'cos of dams, and at least 50,000 Christian refugees from Hindutva hate killings, squatting terrified in camps. But much worse still (& related), is the drive to force through a number of key industrial projects, which are just going to devastate Orissa's environment as well as its villages & farmers if they're allowed to happen. But Orissa’s farmers are putting up a Non-violent fight that should really be seen as an example to the whiole world. The 3 biggest companies involved are Vedanta (most of you know about the sacred mountain they're after for its aluminium content), Tata, and *Posco: the Pohang steel company of S.Korea.* The anti-Posco movement has faced off titanic odds in the last 3 years, and managed to delay this insane steel project, construction of a vast size steel plant + new port on Orissa's coast. The main aim is to get Iron ore form a magnificent Mt in N.Orissa called Kandadhara (Sword Holder), which has an extraordinary peak, and one of India's highest waterfalls, that falls right down a cliff face, visible from miles away - but the Mt has top quality iron ore. The fact that so much tribal & elephant forest has been devastated by mining in N.Orissa doesn't count.... ANYWAY the great inspiring leader of the anti-Posco movement has suddenly been arrested. PLEASE PLEASE if you can, write a letter to Orissa's Chief Minister to ask for his release. You can do this by email or post - probably good if people do both, so do whichever is easiest. It'd be good to send a lot of mails from abroad to let the Orissa Govt know that people abroad as well as in India are really watching their behaviour on the humnan rights & environment fronts, since basically the Govt of Naveen Patnaik is selling Orissa for a song, & it's totally outrageous. Below are 2 drafts of letters, one by me, one drafted by Indian activists who are close friends. I think, esp for people writing from abroad, a politer less confrontational tone'd be better, but this gives you a choice. Make your own or use either. Just to explain, Naveen Patnaik is Orissa’s Chief Minister because his Dad was; he was educated in Briatin & US, and doesn't speak Oriya, but magazine articles say he "knows everybody worth knowing in Britain's modern aristocracy". When he speaks on TV he sounds like colonel Blimp, and I remember him saying "No-one - I repeat no-one - will be allowed to stand in the way of Orissa's progress". Thousands of small-scale farmers have never stopped standing up to his brutal tactics though, and no-one's been braver than ABAHAYA SAHU, the leader who's just been arrested. He's a communist, (member of the CPI - Communist Party of India, which on the whole is good), but the movement has been scrupulously non-violent, despite appalling violence used by goondas (hired thugs) against them. You can find out lots more from the internet. It's shocking though how this movement has been virtually censored from the western media. The Independent carried one article about how the project wd have a catastrophic effect on Orissa's famous turtles - without one word mentioning this movement, that is among the strongest & best known in India, truly carrying on the spirit that moved Gandhi. So please write!!! I'll draft a suggested letter now, quoting a beautiful book that Naveen wrote when he was a dilettante in the US, about India's healing plants..... To explain one other thing: *THIS IS VERY CLOSELY LINKED WITH THE PRESENT FINANCIAL CRISIS*. To explain this in a few words: No-one I've heard is asking *WHY ICELAND? *The answer is: ALUMINIUM. Iceland's Govt's sold the country to set up a series of the world's biggest smelters, powered by massive dams that have already drowned vast areas of very special wilderness. As a result (as always happens with aluminium) the country borrowed 50 times what they had, so people there have been rolling in new money, while a minority have been strongly protesting at the rape of the environment. This is why the credit ratings agencies recommended investing in Iceland till 10 days ago! Actually, Iceland was selling itself into a slavery of debt (which is what the aluminium industry does to a country). This is why Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, WWF etc didn't touch the Iceland issue or support the acitivists - too much at stake; too much money. Even charities have invested heavily in Icelandic banks, without asking WHAT'S THIS MONEY FOR? WHERE'S IT GOING? Basically, with steel and aluminium where it's going (as well as the car industry, planes, food/transport/construction boom) is* the arms industry: feeding the world's wars with a military-industrial complex based on profligate overuse of the earth's minerals*. People barely seem to notice this connection now! But the Icelandic situation does imply that ethical investment may prove now to be wiser investment too. And basically, the same thing's happening in Orissa: offers of colossal foreign investment, but the farmers not willing to get displaced, holding the projects up. And in the present crisis, the tycoons are losing money so the projects are absolutely at stake now: Vedanta's lost 2 billion$ in last few days, Mittal 20b$. This is why Vedanta and Posco are suddenly being more aggressive right now - just as Orissa's reeling from the horrendous ethnic cleansing of Christians, who are being hunted down like animals in the forests of central Orissa. So now is the critical time to stop these insane mega-projects. Tata's car factory has just been stopped by a heroic farmers' movement in Bengal, and I believe the movements against these titans in Orissa too will succeed. But *the farmers need all the support they can get*, and people outside India need to know what's happening, 'cos the newspapers are barely saying it, and I'd say this is among the most important news nywhere in the world. Please B a part of it & *write*.......There are 3 people to write to (& if for some reason you can't write this yourself, please forward it to contacts who will):- To: Shri Naveen Patnaik Chief Minister of Orissa Naveen Nivas, Aerodrome Road, P.O. Bhubaneswar Distt. Khurda, Pin - 751 001 E-mail cmo at ori.nic. in Office Phone 0674-2531100, 2535100, 2531500 Office Fax 0674-2400100 Residence Phone 0674-2590299 Principal Secretary to the CM, BK Patnaik: 2536682, 2322164 Email: cmo at ori.nic. in Shri M.C. Bhandare Governor of Orissa Raj Bhavan Bhubaneshwar Phone: 0674-2536111, 0674-2536582 DRAFT APPEAL To: Shri Naveen Patnaik Chief Minister of Orissa Secretariat Bhubaneshwar Dear Naveen/Honourable Sir (choose how you address the gentleman) We are horrified to hear of the arrest of Abhaya Sahu. From all we understand, his opposition to the Posco project has been scrupulously non-violent, while the villagers involved have faced considerable harrassment by goondas, who have used bombs and other weapons against protesting villagers. *Abhaya has shown himself as a man of the greatest integrity and highest principles. Please release him. Holding him would reflect poorly on your administration.* Many people remember Dula Mandal, who was murdered by pro-Posco goons in his village of Govindpur on 21.6.08. He was an ordinary villager, kjilled after a day’s hard work alongside hundreds of others, dredging the Jetadhari river mouth. Villagers had alerted the authorities to the importance of this task to avert floods, but after huge delays, and talk of a multimillion rupee contract for the job, the villagers had decided to do it themselves, which angered businessmen who had hoped to get this contract. After completing the dredging on 30^th June, the villagers held a memorial for Dula attended by several thousand villagers and supporters. A few days later, as you must recall, villagers captured several goondas who had used violence against them, along with six boxes of home-made bombs and other weapons, from the school in Govindpur, handing these over to the police. When serious violence erupted before this, on 29^th November 2007, and bombs had been thrown by goondas at a crowd consisting largely of women, Priyabrat Patnaik was heard to make a statement on TV that “those people have been taught a lesson”. Naveen – Orissa’s environment is in greatest jeopardy from the Posco project. Kandadhara Mountain is one of the State’s real treasures. Meanwhile the inhabitants of Dhinkia and the other villagers on the coast are standing up for the world’s Conscience. You must be aware by now, from financial events as well as a stream of environmental reports, that the vast majority of Orissa’s villagers will not benefit from this type of project. It repeats precisely the worst mistakes of the West’s history, and the very reason that the world is in such financial and environmental crisis now. Your own words written some years ago expressed this most eloquently in the beautiful introduction you wrote to your book on Ayurvedic plants: *“/The man who recognizes how he is linked with universal life is a man who possesses a sound soul because he is not isolated from his own energies, nor from the energies of nature. But as the highest form of life, man also becomes its guardian, recognizing his very survival depends on seeing that the fragile balance of nature, and living organisms, is not disturbed… If a man wilfully disturbs the balance of living things he inevitably damages himself…/”* (“The Garden of Life/” /1993)// Please act now.. FREE ABHAYA. Either cancel the Posco project if this is in your power, or at least allow open debate and dissent on the subject. This is the hallmark of a civilised society. When non-violent dissent is crushed by repression, this is the absolute antithesis of real development, and nothing good can come of it for your State or yourself. *We call on you to make a stand for civilised values here and order Abhaya's release*. Sincerely. DRAFT BY ACTIVISTS IN INDIA: Sub: Condemning continued repression of protests against POSCO project and recent arrest of Shri Abhay Sahoo, POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti leader To Naveen Patnaik, Chief Minister of Orissa To the Principal Secretary to the CM, BK Patnaik To the Governor of Orissa, MC Bhandare (addresses above) Dear Sir, We are writing to condemn the arrest of Shri Abhay Sahoo, leader of the POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti, and the continued repression of the protests against the proposed POSCO project in Jagatsinghpur District. On the evening of Sunday, October 12th, Abhay Sahoo was arrested near Paradip. It is not yet known what Shri Sahoo is being charged with. However the police had earlier filed numerous false cases against him, while taking no action against those responsible for the violent attacks on the people of the area. We fear that these false cases will now be used to unjustly detain Shri Sahoo in order to silence him and to intimidate those opposed to the project. The POSCO project is a gigantic corporate crime, an attempt by a multinational corporation to seize the land and resources of the affected people and of the nation. The POSCO project will benefit no one except POSCO itself. Moreover, the State government's moves to hand over the land are illegal and a criminal offence under the Forest Rights Act, 2006. Despite these facts, for the last three years the State government has been brutally repressing the people's protests, including through killings, bomb attacks and siege tactics. Much of the area is under de facto occupation by the police. We therefore call upon you to ensure: * The immediate cancellation of the POSCO project and the withdrawal of all police from the area; * The immediate release of Shri Sahoo and all other arrested PPSS leaders; * Prosecution of all those responsible for violence against the people of the area and compensation to the people for the repression that they have suffered. Sincerely, Covering letter: Dear All, As you might be aware by now, Shri Abhaya Sahu, leader of POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti (PPSS) was arrested earlier this evening in Orissa and was kept in the Circuit House in Paradip. Pasted below as well as attached is an appeal letter for immediate release. Please feel free to modify it and send it to the Chief Minister and the Governor at the earliest. The arrest is yet another measure of repression by the state and must be severely condemned. This is an appeal to one and all to write to all concerned for immediate and unconditional release of Shri Abhaya Sahu. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 11:05:07 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:35:07 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] "Stranded Pakistanis" in Bangladesh Message-ID: For more on the "Stranded Pakistani" community of Bangladesh, read Hana Shams' cover story on Biharis: http://hanashams.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/bihari/ This cover story was cited in the court proceedings this year that led to the landmark decision finally giving "Stranded Pakistanis" Bangladeshi citizenship. > Jawaharlal Nehru University > Tanvir Mokammel > Swapnabhumi > (The Promised Land) > > A Documentary on the Urdu-speaking community of Bangladesh - also known > as "stranded Pakistanis" or "Biharis" - who live in a situation of > "statelessness" in Bangladesh. The film goes back to the painful > partition of India in 1947 and the ensuing mass migration of peoples. From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 11:25:13 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:25:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? In-Reply-To: <793737.90155.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <793737.90155.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Im not interested in ' how should one consider this person Inder salim' but im concern about how should one person consider people, who say, write, & lobby to malign somebody. On 10/12/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > What should one call it when a person condemns an act by someone and > praises an identical act by someone else? > > ACT A ------ > > On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K Militants are terrorists : > Pakistan President". He reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. > > He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and important statement > from Pakistan President .........". > > (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan Durrani --------- > " WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? > UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . > HUMBLY > IS > > ACT B ------- > > One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, Naeem Mohaimen > posts "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself". He too reproduces > the news item and gives the weblink. > > Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item. > > Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- "thanks for > forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all > over the world." > > How should one consider this person Inder Salim? > > This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator similarly > displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one person for abusive > language and not having taken similar action against another person who also > had used abusive language ( equally abusive and crude) > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Change is the only constant in life ! From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 13:07:09 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:07:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? In-Reply-To: References: <793737.90155.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810130037u7f5df8ex4467280aa5f678b0@mail.gmail.com> Quite Interesting Kshmendra ji. Inder Salim as I said is just trying his appeasement policy. Same was the case when he desperately tried to discuss so called cateism in Kashmiri Pandits. Such mentality is disgusting. Just Pathetic. Your current post reflect the true double standards in him. Hope he understands his problems, and works on it. Everything is possible in this world; if one isn't ignorant. Try Inder. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/13/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > > Im not interested in ' how should one consider this person Inder > salim' but > im concern about how should one person consider people, who say, write, & > lobby to malign somebody. > > > On 10/12/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > What should one call it when a person condemns an act by someone and > > praises an identical act by someone else? > > > > ACT A ------ > > > > On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K Militants are terrorists : > > Pakistan President". He reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. > > > > He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and important statement > > from Pakistan President .........". > > > > (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan Durrani --------- > > " WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD > IT? > > UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . > > HUMBLY > > IS > > > > ACT B ------- > > > > One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, Naeem Mohaimen > > posts "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself". He too > reproduces > > the news item and gives the weblink. > > > > Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item. > > > > Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- "thanks for > > forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all > > over the world." > > > > How should one consider this person Inder Salim? > > > > This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator similarly > > displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one person for abusive > > language and not having taken similar action against another person who > also > > had used abusive language ( equally abusive and crude) > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Oct 13 13:13:57 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:13:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In Defense of Piracy - Lawrence Lessig Message-ID: <15E5871F-C227-48CC-86EE-70283BFD0994@sarai.net> OCTOBER 11, 2008 Essay In Defense of Piracy Digital technology has made it easy to create new works from existing art, but copyright law has yet to catch up. By LAWRENCE LESSIG http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122367645363324303.html In early February 2007, Stephanie Lenz's 13-month-old son started dancing. Pushing a walker across her kitchen floor, Holden Lenz started moving to the distinctive beat of a song by Prince, "Let's Go Crazy." He had heard the song before. The beat had obviously stuck. So when Holden heard the song again, he did what any sensible 13-month- old would do -- he accepted Prince's invitation and went "crazy" to the beat. Holden's mom grabbed her camcorder and, for 29 seconds, captured the priceless image of Holden dancing, with the barely discernible Prince playing on a CD player somewhere in the background. Ms. Lenz wanted her mother to see the film. But you can't easily email a movie. So she did what any citizen of the 21st century would do: She uploaded the file to YouTube and sent her relatives and friends the link. They watched the video scores of times. It was a perfect YouTube moment: a community of laughs around a homemade video, readily shared with anyone who wanted to watch. Sometime over the next four months, however, someone from Universal Music Group also watched Holden dance. Universal manages the copyrights of Prince. It fired off a letter to YouTube demanding that it remove the unauthorized "performance" of Prince's music. YouTube, to avoid liability itself, complied. A spokeswoman for YouTube declined to comment. This sort of thing happens all the time today. Companies like YouTube are deluged with demands to remove material from their systems. No doubt a significant portion of those demands are fair and justified. Universal's demand, however, was not. The quality of the recording was terrible. No one would download Ms. Lenz's video to avoid paying Prince for his music. There was no plausible way in which Prince or Universal was being harmed by Holden Lenz. YouTube sent Ms. Lenz a notice that it was removing her video. She wondered, "Why?" What had she done wrong? She pressed that question through a number of channels until it found its way to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (on whose board I sat until the beginning of 2008). The foundation's lawyers thought this was a straightforward case of fair use. Ms. Lenz consulted with the EFF and filed a "counter- notice" to YouTube, arguing that no rights of Universal were violated by Holden's dance. Yet Universal's lawyers insist to this day that sharing this home movie is willful copyright infringement under the laws of the United States. On their view of the law, she is liable to a fine of up to $150,000 for sharing 29 seconds of Holden dancing. Universal declined to comment. How is it that sensible people, people no doubt educated at some of the best universities and law schools in the country, would come to think it a sane use of corporate resources to threaten the mother of a dancing 13-month-old? What is it that allows these lawyers and executives to take a case like this seriously, to believe there's some important social or corporate reason to deploy the federal scheme of regulation called copyright to stop the spread of these images and music? "Let's Go Crazy" indeed! It doesn't have to be like this. We could craft copyright law to encourage a wide range of both professional and amateur creativity, without threatening Prince's profits. We could reject the notion that Internet culture must oppose profit, or that profit must destroy Internet culture. But real change will be necessary if this is to be our future -- changes in law, and changes in us. For now, trials like Ms. Lenz's are becoming increasingly common. Both professionals, such as the band Girl Talk or the artist Candice Breitz, and amateurs, including thousands creating videos posted on YouTube, are finding themselves the target of overeager lawyers. Because their creativity captures or includes the creativity of others, the owners of the original creation are increasingly invoking copyright to stop the spread of this unauthorized speech. This new work builds upon the old by in effect "quoting" the old. But while writers with words have had the freedom to quote since time immemorial, "writers" with digital technology have not yet earned this right. Instead, the lawyers insist permission is required to include the protected work in anything new. Not all owners, of course. Viacom, for example, has effectively promised to exempt practically any amateur remix from its lawyers' concerns. But enough owners insist on permission to have touched, and hence, taint, an extraordinary range of extraordinary creativity, including remixes in the latest presidential campaign. During the Republican primary, for example, Fox News ordered John McCain's campaign to stop using a clip of Sen. McCain at a Fox News-moderated debate in an ad. And two weeks ago, Warner Music Group got YouTube to remove a video attacking Barack Obama, which used pieces of songs like the Talking Heads' "Burning Down the House." (Spokesman Will Tanous of Warner Music Group, which represents the Talking Heads, says the request came from the band's management.) Around the same time, NBC asked the Obama campaign to pull an ad that remixed some NBC News footage with Tom Brokaw and Keith Olbermann. We are in the middle of something of a war here -- what some call "the copyright wars"; what the late Jack Valenti called his own "terrorist war," where the "terrorists" are apparently our kids. But if I asked you to shut your eyes and think about these "copyright wars," your mind would not likely run to artists like Girl Talk or creators like Stephanie Lenz. Peer-to-peer file sharing is the enemy in the "copyright wars." Kids "stealing" stuff with a computer is the target. The war is not about new forms of creativity, not about artists making new art. Yet every war has its collateral damage. These creators are this war's collateral damage. The extreme of regulation that copyright law has become makes it difficult, sometimes impossible, for a wide range of creativity that any free society -- if it thought about it for just a second -- would allow to exist, legally. In a state of "war," we can't be lax. We can't forgive infractions that might at a different time not even be noticed. Think "Eighty-year-old Grandma Manhandled by TSA Agents," and you're in the right frame for this war as well. The work of these remix creators is valuable in ways that we have forgotten. It returns us to a culture that, ironically, artists a century ago feared the new technology of that day would destroy. In 1906, for example, perhaps America's then most famous musician, John Phillip Sousa, warned Congress about the inevitable loss that the spread of these "infernal machines" -- the record player -- would cause. As he described it: "When I was a boy...in front of every house in the summer evenings you would find young people together singing the songs of the day or the old songs. Today you hear these infernal machines going night and day. We will not have a vocal chord left. The vocal chords will be eliminated by a process of evolution, as was the tail of man when he came from the ape." A professional fearful that new technology would destroy the amateur. "The tide of amateurism cannot but recede," he predicted. A recession that he believed would only weaken culture. A new generation of "infernal machines" has now reversed this trend. New technology is restoring the "vocal chords" of millions. Wikipedia is a text version of this amateur creativity. Much of YouTube is the video version. A new generation has been inspired to create in a way our generation could not imagine. And tens of thousands, maybe millions, of "young people" again get together to sing "the songs of the day or the old songs" using this technology. Not on corner streets, or in parks near their homes. But on platforms like YouTube, or MySpace, with others spread across the world, whom they never met, or never even spoke to, but whose creativity has inspired them to create in return. The return of this "remix" culture could drive extraordinary economic growth, if encouraged, and properly balanced. It could return our culture to a practice that has marked every culture in human history -- save a few in the developed world for much of the 20th century -- where many create as well as consume. And it could inspire a deeper, much more meaningful practice of learning for a generation that has no time to read a book, but spends scores of hours each week listening, or watching or creating, "media." Yet our attention is not focused on these creators. It is focused instead upon "the pirates." We wage war against these "pirates"; we deploy extraordinary social and legal resources in the absolutely failed effort to get them to stop "sharing." This war must end. It is time we recognize that we can't kill this creativity. We can only criminalize it. We can't stop our kids from using these tools to create, or make them passive. We can only drive it underground, or make them "pirates." And the question we as a society must focus on is whether this is any good. Our kids live in an age of prohibition, where more and more of what seems to them to be ordinary behavior is against the law. They recognize it as against the law. They see themselves as "criminals." They begin to get used to the idea. That recognition is corrosive. It is corrupting of the very idea of the rule of law. And when we reckon the cost of this corruption, any losses of the content industry pale in comparison. Copyright law must be changed. Here are just five changes that would make a world of difference: Deregulate amateur remix: We need to restore a copyright law that leaves "amateur creativity" free from regulation. Before the 20th century, this culture flourished. The 21st century could see its return. Digital technologies have democratized the ability to create and re-create the culture around us. Where the creativity is an amateur remix, the law should leave it alone. It should deregulate amateur remix. What happens when others profit from this creativity? Then a line has been crossed, and the remixed artists plainly ought to be paid -- at least where payment is feasible. If a parent has remixed photos of his kid with a song by Gilberto Gil (as I have, many times), then when YouTube makes the amateur remix publicly available, some compensation to Mr. Gil is appropriate -- just as, for example, when a community playhouse lets neighbors put on a performance consisting of a series of songs sung by neighbors, the public performance of those songs triggers a copyright obligation (usually covered by a blanket license issued to the community playhouse). There are plenty of models within the copyright law for assuring that payment. We need to be as creative as our kids in finding a model that works. Deregulate "the copy": Copyright law is triggered every time there is a copy. In the digital age, where every use of a creative work produces a "copy," that makes as much sense as regulating breathing. The law should also give up its obsession with "the copy," and focus instead on uses -- like public distributions of copyrighted work -- that connect directly to the economic incentive copyright law was intended to foster. Simplify: If copyright regulation were limited to large film studios and record companies, its complexity and inefficiency would be unfortunate, though not terribly significant. But when copyright law purports to regulate everyone with a computer, there is a special obligation to make sure this regulation is clear. It is not clear now. Tax-code complexity regulating income is bad enough; tax-code complexity regulating speech is a First Amendment nightmare. Restore efficiency: Copyright is the most inefficient property system known to man. Now that technology makes it trivial, we should return to the system of our framers requiring at least that domestic copyright owners maintain their copyright after an automatic, 14-year initial term. It should be clear who owns what, and if it isn't, the owners should bear the burden of making it clear. Decriminalize Gen-X: The war on peer-to-peer file-sharing is a failure. After a decade of fighting, the law has neither slowed file sharing, nor compensated artists. We should sue not kids, but for peace, and build upon a host of proposals that would assure that artists get paid for their work, without trying to stop "sharing." —Adapted from "Remix" by Lawrence Lessig, to be published by The Penguin Press on Oct. 16, 2008. Copyright by Lawrence Lessig, 2008. Printed by arrangement with The Penguin Press, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. Lawrence Lessig is a professor of law at Stanford Law School, and co- founder of Creative Commons. From javedmasoo at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 16:38:43 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:38:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: <6353c690810121144g618e9a96u97917388d1dfdbba@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810121144g618e9a96u97917388d1dfdbba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aditya ji Yes we are all saddened by the death of Inspector Sharma. I think he died a martyr's death - we should be proud of him. But it is still not clear who killed him - terrorists or someone else. The autopsy report has not been made public. The AIIMS doctors have said that the Holy Family hospital mutilated the evidence from his body. On one hand you are asking me to go and ask Praveen Swami and India Today myself. Then on the other hand you are answering on their behalf. You don't have to apologetic about the system. The current situation cannot be compared with all the previous situations, including your own imprisonment, although you didn't specify what was your crime. In this case, it is very clear that the authorities have selectively invited India Today and Praveen Swami to get deep access to all their secrets. When everyone is asking for transparency and a judicial enquiry, and the govt categorically denies both, why do they become transparent only to some journalists? It is not an ordinary case - its a matter of national security. Are these journalists favoured because they will not ask any questions, and write what it told to them. Others are likely to question. This is not a matter of anti-state propaganda or Muslim appeasement. When an entire community is being driven up the wall for harbouring terrorism, peaceful people need to defend themselves. If the local residents have not been given satisfactory answers to their questions, they have the right to ask. Why are you answering on behalf of the police - no one is questioning you. I have nothing against you. J On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Javed bhai, > > Aadab. The discussion was on the authenticity of the encounter; which as > clearly visible is being deviated to post-encounter period now. So, I > suppose we can only go ahead when all agree that Encounter was no doubt > genuine and bravely fought by our martyr Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma. > Thanks for your silent support :-) > > Now, coming to your queries there after. I consider Praveen Swami an > excellent writer and intelligence expert of Terrorism and to some extent > also on Kashmir. However, this does not mean, I'm there to defend him every > time. So, maybe you can direct these questions to him on his e-mail or else > to "The Hindu" newspaper; which was the lone newspaper to have the guts to > publish the truth so blunt apart from a few hindi dailies. > > Since, The terrorists who have been arrested from Jamia or elsewhere are > lodged in a sensitive prison inside Asia's largest prison; you do have some > security concerns to address. At the same time, they are not VIP's on some > tour to the Jail, that your ANYONE can meet them ANYTIME. There are a few > visits allowed per week to certain amount of people including lawyers and > they need to take prior permission. If there were problems faced in meeting > them, its very unfortunate; and I think this is more so an administrative > problem. > > Even I was arrested sometime back and lodged inside a Jail; even I wasn't > permitted to a lawyer or to directly interact with relatives personally for > hours. This surely is a serious concern and needs to be addressed. Its a > shame that Govt. doesn't take steps in this regard. > > Agreeing to the above, at the same time we can't take this out of bounds to > compare this with Human Rights, Biased Government and anti-state rhetoric. > Enough of that crap. Get above all this Drama now. > > Prashant Bhushan isn't the loan lawyer; just to fill you up with > information. There a few more, though young and even they faced tough time; > but did manage to meet the terrorists lodged inside the Jail and take > necessary signatures and details from them. > > If L-18 hasn't been open to media, then again its a sad story. But, I think > now there is less of Police force around the area and the people are back to > normal routine. Its unfortunate some elements tried to instigate communal > tension in the area. Fortunately, nothing happened. > > The questions about India Today, can be best addressed to them. They were > the one's to invite Terrorist Yasin Malik to the India Today Conclave a few > months back,Do I need say more ? > > Pravin Swami's information was based on whatever intelligence information > Police shared with media from time to time. To add to this, obviously senior > Journalists and experts no doubt have sources in the Government, Police etc. > This isn't an old news. > > Faces of accused is covered for their benefit alone. Don't see a reason why > it bothers you ? > > These are simple excuses to just corner the state and the Police for just no > reason. Just to fan imaginary anti-Muslim wave, all this is being done. I > made rest of the things amply clear in my last e-mail; please do go through > it. > > Journalism these days is all about biased editorials, bought news articles > and market. How do you expect a Terrorist Yasin Malik to get so much > attention in media then ? Give me a break too Sir, most media groups are > hell bent on proving this encounter as fake; which till now they have failed > to. How will they possibly hide the truth ? Brave M.C. Sharma did a fabulous > job. > > You have seen Amar Singh and others. Who is the next politician hunting for > votes ? > > This is all about Muslim Appeasement. On 14th Sept. Muslim clerics are > meeting to disuss this sudden so called Muslim terrorising thing. > > Note: The PM himself has said no to probe. What more can you do ? Arundhati > Roy may pose for shutter bugs by visiting her friends in Jamia; but that > won't help. It just exposes their corrupt mindset and divisive policies. >Instigating Muslims is what they can do most, only to widen the gap. How > will this result in PEACE ? > > Wake Up !!!! > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 10/12/08, Javed wrote: >> >> Dear Aditya >> I would simply like to ask you one question (since you consider >> Praveen Swamy as a great journalist and renowned expert of security >> and all): >> >> The police is not allowing any one (and I mean ANYONE) to meet the >> accused boys arrested from Batla House - they did not allow the >> lawyer, nor the relatives of the accused until the Delhi high court >> gave a judgment that they should be allowed to meet for one hour. Then >> the relatives and the lawyer Prashant Bhushan could meet only once for >> a few minutes. The police also did not allow any journalist or TV crew >> to enter the L-18 flat until now. In such a situation, how can >> somebody like Praveen Swamy (or Mihir Srivastava of India Today, who >> promptly took a cover-story interview) have such a deep access to the >> secrets of Special Cell? Did they find all this out by some >> sting-operation? Or are they above law? Or are they the mouthpieces of >> the Police? Or are they copywriting all these stories and feeding to >> the state? >> >> The 3 accused were presented to the media with their faces hidden in >> Arab scarves. They were presented to the court (for extension of >> remand) with muffled faces. But their faces were exhibited openly for >> INDIA TODAY cover story! Wow, is this country being run by Prabhu >> Chawla? >> >> Give us a break Mr. Praveen Swami and Prabhu Chawla. Or at least show >> us the "Mind of the Terror" from Orissa and Bangalore too, if you are >> the upholders of unbiased journalism. >> >> >> J >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> >> > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal >> security >> > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have >> been >> > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least >> > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise >> their >> > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came >> out >> > in today's newspaper. >> > >> > Love >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > >> > >> > *Behind the Batla House shootout >> > * Praveen Swami * >> > >> > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. >> > >> > * >> > >> > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, >> "I've >> > believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." >> > >> > Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics >> have >> > been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent >> students, >> > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators >> and >> > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have >> > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the >> > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like >> this: >> > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim >> > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some >> reason, >> > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell >> the >> > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient >> honest >> > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also >> > killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him >> live. >> > >> > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, >> mundane. >> > >> > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat >> where >> > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two >> > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident >> > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in >> > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy >> > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the >> > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It >> turned >> > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. >> > >> > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators >> > determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the >> perpetrators >> > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that >> > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, >> > calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and >> July >> > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had >> been >> > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, >> all >> > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became >> active >> > again in Ahmedabad. >> > >> > The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the >> Ahmedabad >> > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone >> > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — >> the >> > sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after >> this, >> > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, >> > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted >> a >> > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope >> that >> > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. >> > >> > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough >> > last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing >> > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the >> > investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad >> left >> > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this >> > information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either >> > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. >> Inspector >> > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. >> > 'Vodaphone salesman' >> > >> > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up >> the >> > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and >> > shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a >> > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and >> > called his boss. >> > >> > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the >> two >> > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. >> > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped >> corridor >> > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as >> they >> > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. >> > When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to >> > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded >> > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. >> > >> > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. >> > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, >> combat >> > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla >> House-style >> > operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit >> > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their >> resources >> > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. >> > >> > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family >> > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India >> > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two >> > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through >> the >> > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting >> through >> > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted >> with >> > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. >> > >> > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's >> shirt >> > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was >> > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from >> > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop >> > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having >> > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, >> too, >> > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. >> > >> > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more >> > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have >> been >> > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than >> not, >> > by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More >> > important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious >> > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently >> > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. >> > >> > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic >> > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" >> > representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that >> there >> > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to >> > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on >> Israel, >> > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three >> nations >> > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi >> violence; >> > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." >> > >> > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the >> Jamia >> > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. >> Much >> > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and >> deceit >> > in which the lies have bred. >> > >> > *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm >> >> > * >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From asitredsalute at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 16:53:20 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:53:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Appeal for release of Abhay Sahoo, leader of the anti POSCO movement Message-ID: Dear Friends Mr. Abhay Sahoo, leader of the anti POSCO movement in Orissa has been arrested. Please write to the Chief Minister for his immediate release. Shri Naveen Patnaik Chief Minister of Orissa Naveen Nivas, Aerodrome Road, P.O. Bhubaneswar Distt. Khurda, Pin - 751 001 E-mail cmo at ori.nic.in Office Phone 0674-2531100, 2535100, 2531500 Office Fax 0674-2400100 Residence Phone 0674-2590299 Principal Secretary to the CM, BK Patnaik: 2536682, 2322164 Email: cmo at ori.nic.in Shri M.C. Bhandare Governor of Orissa Raj Bhavan Bhubaneshwar Phone: 0674-2536111, 0674-2536582 To: Shri Naveen Patnaik Chief Minister of Orissa Secretariat Bhubaneshwar Sub: Condemning continued repression of protests against POSCO project and recent arrest of Shri Abhay Sahoo, POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti leader Dear Sir, We are writing to condemn the arrest of Shri Abhay Sahoo, leader of the POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samiti, and the continued repression of the protests against the proposed POSCO project in Jagatsinghpur District. On the evening of Sunday, October 12th, Abhay Sahoo was arrested near Paradip. It is not yet known what Shri Sahoo is being charged with. However the police had earlier filed numerous false cases against him, while taking no action against those responsible for the violent attacks on the people of the area. We fear that these false cases will now be used to unjustly detain Shri Sahoo in order to silence him and to intimidate those opposed to the project. The POSCO project is a gigantic corporate crime, an attempt by a multinational corporation to seize the land and resources of the affected people and of the nation. The POSCO project will benefit no one except POSCO itself. Moreover, the State government's moves to hand over the land are illegal and a criminal offence under the Forest Rights Act, 2006. Despite these facts, for the last three years the State government has been brutally repressing the people's protests. Much of the area is under occupation by the police. We therefore call upon you to ensure: * The immediate cancellation of the POSCO project and the withdrawal of all police from the area; * The immediate release of Shri Sahoo and all other arrested PPSS leaders; * Prosecution of all those responsible for violence against the people of the area and compensation to the people for the repression that they have suffered. Sincerely, From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 17:20:58 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:50:58 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] ECONOMICS: Bush Critic Krugman wins Nobel Prize Message-ID: Paul Krugman has won Nobel Prize for Economics... >From his blog... "The crisis isn't the only scary thing going on. Something very ugly is taking shape on the political scene: as McCain's chances fade, the crowds at his rallies are, by all accounts, increasingly gripped by insane rage. It's not just a mob phenomenon — it's visible in the right-wing media, and to some extent in the speeches of McCain and Palin. We've seen this before. One thing that has been sort of written out of the mainstream history of politics is the sheer insanity of the attacks on the Clintons — they were drug smugglers, they murdered Vince Foster (and lots of other people), they were in league with foreign powers. And this stuff didn't just show up in fringe publications — it was discussed in Congress, given props by the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, and so on. What it came down to was that a significant fraction of the American population, backed by a lot of money and political influence, simply does not consider government by liberals (even very moderate liberals) legitimate. Ronald Reagan was supposed to have settled that once and for all. What happens when Obama is elected? It will be even worse than it was in the Clinton years. For sure there will be crazy accusations, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some violence. The next few years are going to be very, very tough." From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 17:25:37 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: GreenLeft's Guide to Wall Street Meltdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <559421.55996.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Naeem   Some thoughts after reading your posted link. The comments therein about Wall Street Meltdown and Marx led my thoughts to one of my favourite topics - Islamic Financing.   I have often wondered whether Marx had studied Islam.   On this list one often sees people discuss Marxism in depth. Presumably at least some of them would also have a detailed knowledge of the thought processes and influences that Marx went through.   I would be highly obliged if any person would give some informed opinion on whether Marx was influenced by Islamic thought.   Some of the finest precepts in Islam find themselves reflected in some of the finest precepts in Marxism. One of those is the distaste for the bullying and arm-twisting that 'capital' resorts to.   In the context of the "Wall Street Meltdown" and what led to it, it is my contention that the world would be better off and benefit from applying the Islamic Principles connected with Finance and Financing.    Islamic thought seeks to protect individuals and society from the greed and fear and exploitation that almost invariably gets associated with 'capital'.   In this context the finest of advisories come from Islam on the regulatory environment in which 'capital' should be allowed to operate.   One of the basic principles in Islam is that anything about the future is unknown to man.   This principle would debar the existence of the obscenely exploitative Credit Card system. Since man has no certainty of whether he will exist in the future (next moment, day, month or year), the promise to pay back would be made on a false premise even if the intention were sincere. A Charge Card also would flout the principle.   The "Debit Card" would be appropriate under Islamic norms since it can be used only to the extent that funds are already lying in the Bank Account of the holder.     Purist Islamic Financing takes this principle to also exclude "Personal Loans" since such Loans seek to repay from earnings in the future.   Modern Islamic Financing has tried to stick to this but improvised by modifying "Personal Loan" to "Mortgaged Financing" or "Hire Purchase". So a window is opened for financing acquisition of 'Goods for Personal Use (including residences)'. If there is an inability to re-pay (for whatever reason), the Goods are simple repossessed.   This would seem to be identical to "Non-Islamic Financing". It is not supposed to be in two ways.   One, Purist Islam does not allow loading of Interest on the cost of the goods. The "Financier" would therefore try to ensure the goods are available at the lowest price so that they are easily resaleable after any eventuality of repossession. Meaning that the goods are mortgaged (or co-owned) at the lowest possible value.   Purist Islamic Finance Institutions would not apply "Interest" in any of their transactions whether in lendings or borrowings or deposits. They would be expected to operate only on "Shared Profit and Loss".  There are varied opinions on this as to whether "Interest" per se is 'Haraam' (forbidden) or "Exploitative Interest" ('Ribba' - Usury) is forbidden.   My personal opinion is that Interest in any form and to any small or large extent is forbidden.    Unfortunately, most so called Islamic Financing does use the instrument of "Interest" under various guises. So the above "Mortgage" or "Hire Purchase" goods would have their cost structured in such a way that Interest is woven into it. The "Interest" part of the costs is sought to be recovered at the start of the repayment so that in the eventuality of repossession the goods have the lowest face value or depreciated value.   The other difference, and a critical one, that Purist Islamic Financing would have with "Non-Islamic Financing"  is that the "Repayment Schedule" is not the sword of Promissory Notes which if not honoured on specified due dates separates the Goods from the User by immediate repossession. Islamic Financing is expected to show understanding for any unaccounted for problems faced by the User. It is expected to be kind, compassionate and benevolent. Repossession would therefore be the absolute exception and a rarity.   Of course Non-Islamic Financing also restructures repayment if the borrower has a difficulty. This is however done mostly in such cases where the Financing Institution itself will seriously suffer or collapse if the borrower 'goes under'. Most times the Financing Institution moves in for quick repossession because they would usually Profit from that especially in cases where the borrowings are of the 'less rich'. That is how the Loans are structured.   Also, in Islamic Financing, the "Mortgage" or "Hire Purchase" value of the goods would not change with "supply and demand" leading to change in "market value". So, "Mortgage Top-Ups" would be obviated.   In my opinion, Purist Islamic Financing (even with the improvised modifications) would not finance any such acquisition that is even remotely outside the 'economic bracket' of the User. It is my firm belief that no Financial Institution (Islamic or Non-Islamic) should finance any such acquisition whether for House, Vehicle or "White Goods".    In Islam (as in any sensible philosophy), living "beyond your means" is heavily frowned upon. It is the responsibility of the "State" to look after those citizens who are the less fortunate in terms of their 'economic well being' and have no immediate possibility of bettering their lot. Look after their needs to a reasonable extent.   I hope that the above will be seen in the context of the "Wall Street Meltdown" and the generally known reasons that seem to have led to it.   The above comments on Islamic Financing for "Goods for Personal Use (including residences)" are subjective to my own understanding of this topic.   To my mind, the absolute brilliance of Islamic Financing is recognisable when applied to "Business".   At the time of Mohammed, Agriculture and Trade were the main businesses. Consequently most of the advisories from Mohammed are connected with the two. There are numerous illustrative examples of the Islamic Principles as advised to be practiced by Mohammed in the "Hadeeth" (reportings of Mohammed's life and advices) especially in the 6 Hadeeth Books called 'Sahih Sitta' which are revered and followed predominantly by the Sunni Sect of Muslims.   These advisories can be extrapolated in their principles to any form of "Business". Some salient points (as interpreted by me):   - Interest application in any form at any stage under any guise would be "Haraam"  (forbidden)   - The "Financier" does not simply Loan money but buys into the "Business" and is therefore receives an 'agreed upon return' or can be a pro-rata recipient of Profits or Loss (of what has been given).   - The participation can be in the form of Money or Goods, or Services or any form of 'Capital Investment'   - Even if 'Money' has been given, return in monetary form is frowned upon. The "Financier" is expected to take his return in the form of produce/products/goods/services and then monetize it.   - Since the "Financier" is co-owner (of sorts), there is essentially no "'fixed repayment schedule". The "Financier" is expected 'know' the 'business' before participating and 'know' what to expect and 'when'.     Interestingly, (to my mind) the finest example of application of the Islam Principles of Business Financing can be found in what without any argument has been globally the fastest growing 'business'. That is the IT Software (and connected) Industry.  The growth impetus was (arguably) primarily from the Venture Capital system.   The Venture Capital system of Financing mirrors the finest principles of the Islam Financing System for Business.   My thoughts, so I alone carry the responsibility of an errors.     Kshmendra        --- On Sun, 10/12/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: [Reader-list] FINANCE: GreenLeft's Guide to Wall Street Meltdown To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, October 12, 2008, 10:33 PM http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/770/39726 A guide to the Wall Street meltdown _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 18:10:08 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:40:08 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] "Stranded Pakistanis" in Bangladesh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very sad. This should open the eyes of those who are instigated to raise Pakistani flags & chant 'azadi -bara -e- Islam' slogan in Srinagar. Regards all LA > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:35:07 +0600> From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] "Stranded Pakistanis" in Bangladesh> > For more on the "Stranded Pakistani" community of Bangladesh, read> Hana Shams' cover story on Biharis:> > http://hanashams.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/bihari/> > This cover story was cited in the court proceedings this year that led> to the landmark decision finally giving "Stranded Pakistanis"> Bangladeshi citizenship.> > > Jawaharlal Nehru University> > Tanvir Mokammel> > Swapnabhumi> > (The Promised Land)> >> > A Documentary on the Urdu-speaking community of Bangladesh - also known> > as "stranded Pakistanis" or "Biharis" - who live in a situation of> > "statelessness" in Bangladesh. The film goes back to the painful> > partition of India in 1947 and the ensuing mass migration of peoples.> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 13 19:10:48 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 06:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <155711.67124.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Syed Yunus   Were you suggesting that I had maligned Inder Salim?   If not, then please ignore this post and read no further.   On the other hand if you were actually suggesting that I had maligned Inder Salim then I would request you to think before making such foolish pronouncements.   To malign someone is to accuse them falsely of something.   I highlighted two resposnes of Inder Salim to two identical types of postings. I highlighted his hypocrisy in berating one for posting a News Item and praising another one for doing the same. Those were representations of Inder Salim's contradictions.   Where was the maligning if what i presented was factual? Think. Think Think.   Now there is a new question (inspired by your very own):   How should one consider this person Syed Yunus who MALIGNED me by falsely accusing me of maligning someone??????   I hope the List Administrator makes a note of your having MALIGNED me.   Kshmendra   ( I would have sent this as a private mail if not for the fact that you MALIGNED me in the 'public space' of this List)         - On Mon, 10/13/08, Syed Yunus wrote: From: Syed Yunus Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 11:25 AM Im not interested in ' how should one consider this person Inder salim'  but im concern about how should one person consider people, who say, write, & lobby to malign somebody. On 10/12/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: What should one call it when a person condemns an act by someone and praises an identical act by someone else? ACT A ------ On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President". He reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President .........". (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan Durrani --------- "  WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? UNLESS  THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . HUMBLY IS ACT B ------- One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, Naeem Mohaimen posts  "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself". He too reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item. Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- "thanks for forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all over the world." How should one consider this person Inder Salim? This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator similarly displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one person for abusive language and not having taken similar action against another person who also had used abusive language ( equally abusive and crude) Kshmendra _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Change is the only constant in life ! From pranesh at cis-india.org Mon Oct 13 19:26:16 2008 From: pranesh at cis-india.org (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:26:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tomorrow (October 14) is Open Access Day In-Reply-To: <4785f1e20810130604h102dc0a1mb995ec209ca9be9c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4785f1e20810130604h102dc0a1mb995ec209ca9be9c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4785f1e20810130656v3bbf6afbi9a63c1f378877fd8@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, This is to remind everyone that tomorrow is Open Access Day, and that the Centre for Culture, Media & Governance, Jamia Millia Islamia (New Delhi) and the Centre for Internet and Society (Bangalore) are jointly organizing a meeting at Jamia Millia Islamia to celebrate the occasion. Details at: http://cis-india.org/advocacy/open-access/open-access-day/agenda A map for those attending: http://cis-india.org/advocacy/open-access/open-access-day/map.jpg Regards, Pranesh Prakash Programme Manager Centre for Internet and Society P: +91 80 40926283 W: http://cis-india.org ---- Centre for Culture, Media & Governance, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi and Cente for Internet and Society, Bangalore, request your presence at the celebrations of the first Open Access Day on 14th October 2008, at Tagore Hall, Dayar-i-Mir Taqi Mir, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi Agenda 1400 – 1415 Welcome and Introduction – Prof. Biswajit Das, Director, Centre for Culture, Media & Governance, Jamia Millia Islamia 1415 – 1535 Chair: Prof. Arif Ali, Head Dept. of Bio-Technology, Jamia Milia Islamia Panelists: 1. Mr. Zakir Thomas, Project Director - Open Source Drug Discovery 2. Dr. Anshu Bhardwaj, Scientist CSIR, New Delhi. 3. Dr. Andrew Lynn, Professor, Department of Bio-informatics, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi. 4. Prof. Subbiah Arunachalam, Distinguished Fellow, Centre for Internet and Society 1535 – 1600 Questions and Answers Open Discussion 1600 - 1615 Vote of thanks and closure by Sunil Abraham, Director – Policy, Centre for Internet and Society. End with Tea/Coffee About the Open Access Movement Open Access is a growing international movement that uses the Internet to throw open the locked doors that once hid knowledge. It encourages the unrestricted sharing of research results with everyone, everywhere, for the advancement and enjoyment of science and society. Open Access is the principle that publicly funded research should be freely accessible online, immediately after publication, and it's gaining ever more momentum around the world as research funders and policy makers put their weight behind it. The Open Access philosophy was firmly articulated in 2002, when the Budapest Open Access Initiative was introduced. It quickly took root in the scientific and medical communities because it offered an alternative route to research literature that was frequently closed off behind costly subscription barriers. Today, the OAIster search engine provides access to 17,799,314 Open Access records from 1015 contributors. According to the Directory of Open Access Journals – India publishes 105 Open Access journals. Both INSA and IASc have made their journals open access journals. Indian Institute of Science has an EPrints repository and it has over 11,000 papers and this year, the Institute's centenary year, the number is expected to cross 23,000. NIT, Rourkela, has mandated open access to all faculty research papers. There are about thirty OA institutional repositories in India today. The IITs and IISc have formed a consortium and are making their class lectures open access under a project called NPTEL. These lectures are available in web, video and YouTube formats. About Open Access Day October 14, 2008 will be the world's first Open Access Day. The founding partners for this Day are SPARC (the Scholarly Publishing and Academic Resources Coalition), Students for FreeCulture, and the Public Library of Science. Open Access Day will help to broaden awareness and understanding of Open Access, including recent mandates and emerging policies, within the international higher education community and the general public. Contact Details: New Delhi Vibodh Parthasarathi Reader/Associate Professor Centre for Culture, Media and Governance Nelson Mandela House, Mujib Bagh Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi 110 025 P.: +91 11 26933810. 26933842 M: +91 9873458688 E: ccmgjmi at gmail.com W: http://jmi.nic.in/ccmg Bangalore Sunil Abraham Director - Policy Centre for Internet and Society No. D2, 3rd Floor, Shariff Chambers 14, Cunningham Road, Bangalore - 560 052 P: +91 80 4092 6283 F: +91 80 4114 8130 M: +91 9611100817 E: sunil at cis-india.org W: www.cis-india.org From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 17:52:42 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:52:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Film Screening @ SAA: Swapnabhumi Message-ID: <48c2916d0810120522kcc45df6qb6e5fa246d47d2c0@mail.gmail.com> *School** of Arts** and Aesthetics* *Jawaharlal** Nehru University** * Presents *Tanvir Mokammel* With his Film *Swapnabhumi * *(The Promised Land)*** A Documentary on the Urdu-speaking community of Bangladesh - also known as "stranded Pakistanis" or "Biharis" - who live in a situation of "statelessness" in Bangladesh. The film goes back to the painful partition of India in 1947 and the ensuing mass migration of peoples. *At the SAA Auditorium * *Wednesday, 15th October* *at 4.30 p.m* A Discussion with the Director chaired by *Professor* *Tanika Sarkar* will follow the Screening * * -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon Oct 13 23:54:34 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:24:34 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" In-Reply-To: <9df304c00810120729kf773e9exa8e2a95d692a6860@mail.gmail.com> References: <9df304c00810120729kf773e9exa8e2a95d692a6860@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history. If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route at those uninhabitable heights. Similarly no concern is shown for those credulous wailing mothers,orphans,widows whose dear ones continue to fall prey to pan islamic indoctrination & the mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from secular india. Terror commanders who self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks, courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest & the police action that followed). To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to avenge some perceived injustice back home. And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly. There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie. Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the valentine even. Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building process.Let us stop being parochial & selective. Regards all LA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:59:15 +0530> From: saminasarai at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"> > This is a piece I wrote for India Today but the version that has appeared in> the magazine is an edit that I did not agree to. It's not clear to me how> that happened since I edited the longer article down to this final version> and sent it in to them. But the magazine is out and I am both angry and> saddened at their careless editing of ideas that are particularly under> siege at this point of time.> > So, here is my edit and I would be glad if it was circulated widely on the> net - more widely than the magazine!> > Samina Mishra> > > Not far from L18, in the posh part of Jamia Nagar, is a house on a> tree-lined avenue that will always be home to me. But my life, with all its> easy privileges, could not be more different from Atif and Sajid's, the two> young men shot as alleged terrorists at L18. I contain multitudes, Whitman> so eloquently said. But we live in a time when even multitudes are forced to> lay claim to a singular label. And so by writing this, perhaps, I will> forever be labelled the voice of the liberal secular Muslim. A voice that is> accused of not speaking up. Ironically, it is this very tyranny of labels> that grants me this space in a mainstream national magazine.> > As someone with a Muslim first name and a Hindu surname, I suppose I have> always swung between labels - a poster girl for communal harmony or a> confused, rootless individual, depending on who was doing the labelling. I> went to a public school and have never worn a burkha. I might escape being> thrown in the big cauldron with "Islamic Terrorists" but I will certainly be> added to the one for "misguided intellectuals". While there is no mistaking> that it is zealous nationalists who seek to light the fire under the first> cauldron, the other is a bone of contention between those who seek to define> for me how to be Indian and those who seek to define for me how to be> Muslim. My condemnation of the demolition of the Babri Masjid, Imrana's rape> or the media circus around Gudiya will always be seen in the context of my> privileged background, my gender, my religious identity. Perhaps, it can be> no other way.> > In this rhetoric of binaries of "us and them", it is difficult to find the> space to create a new paradigm of discussion. And so, in conversations that> throw up Islamic terrorists, rigid religious beliefs, Pakistan and madrasas,> the response is inevitably another set of questions - why is the Bajrang Dal> not labelled a terrorist outfit, why is the growing public display of Hindu> festivals like Navratras and Karva Chauth not considered rigid religious> beliefs, why should Muslims in India be answerable for what goes on in> Pakistan, what spaces other than madrasas are available for thousands of> believing Muslims who choose to get educated and still retain their> Muslim-ness. As a Muslim in India today, not only are you fighting to shrug> off the label of fundamentalist- if not terrorist - but you are also> succumbing to a paradigm of dialogue which has been set for homogenous> communities with clear markers of identities.> > But how does one fight that when shared cultural spaces, other than those> created by the market, shrink? How does one speak of the diversity of being> Indian when Diwali is celebrated in schools and Eid just in Muslim homes?> How does one avoid a singular label for experiences that are diverse and yet> have a common thread running through them - the experience of a tailor in> Ahmedabad whose Hindu patrons have stopped giving work to, the butcher in> Batla House who couldn't get a bank loan, the software professional who will> now have to watch every single byte that leaves his computer.> > Being Muslim in India today means many things to many people. But how easy> it is to forget that one fundamental reality. How easy it is to say, as> someone said to me after the Delhi blasts - "These are all educated Muslims.> Don't they know that their bombs can also kill their own?" As if everyone> with a Muslim name is a terrorist's very "own".> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From rohitism at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 07:50:56 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:50:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: India Today and Being Muslim In-Reply-To: <82afb4ca0810131303v10de1053hbfdecf36ca62a5fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ced26e0810112000y2d887072lc03d2e7c23c7b20d@mail.gmail.com> <82afb4ca0810131303v10de1053hbfdecf36ca62a5fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Samina Mishra This is a piece I wrote for India Today but the version that has appeared in the magazine is an edit that I did not agree to. It's not clear to me how that happened since I edited the longer article down to this final version and sent it in to them. But the magazine is out and I am both angry and saddened at their careless editing of ideas that are particularly under siege at this point of time. So, here is my edit and I would be glad if it was circulated widely on the net - more widely than the magazine! Samina Not far from L18, in the posh part of Jamia Nagar, is a house on a tree-lined avenue that will always be home to me. But my life, with all its easy privileges, could not be more different from Atif and Sajid's, the two young men shot as alleged terrorists at L18. I contain multitudes, Whitman so eloquently said. But we live in a time when even multitudes are forced to lay claim to a singular label. And so by writing this, perhaps, I will forever be labelled the voice of the liberal secular Muslim. A voice that is accused of not speaking up. Ironically, it is this very tyranny of labels that grants me this space in a mainstream national magazine. As someone with a Muslim first name and a Hindu surname, I suppose I have always swung between labels - a poster girl for communal harmony or a confused, rootless individual, depending on who was doing the labelling. I went to a public school and have never worn a burkha. I might escape being thrown in the big cauldron with "Islamic Terrorists" but I will certainly be added to the one for "misguided intellectuals". While there is no mistaking that it is zealous nationalists who seek to light the fire under the first cauldron, the other is a bone of contention between those who seek to define for me how to be Indian and those who seek to define for me how to be Muslim. My condemnation of the demolition of the Babri Masjid, Imrana's rape or the media circus around Gudiya will always be seen in the context of my privileged background, my gender, my religious identity. Perhaps, it can be no other way. In this rhetoric of binaries of "us and them", it is difficult to find the space to create a new paradigm of discussion. And so, in conversations that throw up Islamic terrorists, rigid religious beliefs, Pakistan and madrasas, the response is inevitably another set of questions - why is the Bajrang Dal not labelled a terrorist outfit, why is the growing public display of Hindu festivals like Navratras and Karva Chauth not considered rigid religious beliefs, why should Muslims in India be answerable for what goes on in Pakistan, what spaces other than madrasas are available for thousands of believing Muslims who choose to get educated and still retain their Muslim-ness. As a Muslim in India today, not only are you fighting to shrug off the label of fundamentalist- if not terrorist - but you are also succumbing to a paradigm of dialogue which has been set for homogenous communities with clear markers of identities. But how does one fight that when shared cultural spaces, other than those created by the market, shrink? How does one speak of the diversity of being Indian when Diwali is celebrated in schools and Eid just in Muslim homes? How does one avoid a singular label for experiences that are diverse and yet have a common thread running through them - the experience of a tailor in Ahmedabad whose Hindu patrons have stopped giving work to, the butcher in Batla House who couldn't get a bank loan, the software professional who will now have to watch every single byte that leaves his computer. Being Muslim in India today means many things to many people. But how easy it is to forget that one fundamental reality. How easy it is to say, as someone said to me after the Delhi blasts - "These are all educated Muslims. Don't they know that their bombs can also kill their own?" As if everyone with a Muslim name is a terrorist's very "own". Samina Mishra / October 2008 - -- So much is unfolding that must complete its gesture, so much is in bud. Samina Mishra 264/1, Gulmohar Avenue Jamia Nagar New Delhi 25 Tel 91 11 26832030 Fax 91 11 26928553 saminamishra at gmail.com _________________________________________ From virtuallyme at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 09:42:13 2008 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:42:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva Message-ID: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Am forwarding an interesting article which explores the concept of Hindutva and tries to point out the differences between it and Hinduism. The author puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a political project, grounded in the principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating and maintaining an authoritarian state, with suppressive control over human beings. He also brings out the difference between the inclusive, open approach of Hinduism and the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva. Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there have been many discussions around similar issues. Regards, Rohan ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L. D'Souza. Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, Ahmedabad" sjprashant at gmail.com Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT)) UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - Averthanus L. D'Souza. Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a former Secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus are the Muslims, the Christians, the Hindu intellectuals and the media." It is very significant as well as intriguing that Vispute included the Hindu intellectuals and the media in his category of the "enemies" of Hindus. It does not take great intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this statement by a very prominent Hindutva promoter. It is quite obvious that Hindu intellectuals (nor any other reasonably educated person for that matter) will refuse to swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by the Hindutva propagandists to arouse anger and hatred against Muslims and Christians, for which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person (including Hindu "intellectuals") will see through the falsity of the arguments which the VHP advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely because the position of the Hindutva campaign is irrational and untenable that the propagandists prefer to recruit uneducated and unthinking followers who can easily be manipulated to believe anything that is fed to them. The Bajrang Dal, which is considered to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of the VHP is a good example of uneducated youth, with more passion than reason, who are willing to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are conditioned to believe that heroism consists in slaughtering helpless women and children, and burning innocent people alive. In this respect the Bajrang Dal is no different from the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the youth brigades of the other fascist movements in Europe who were used to terrorize the population into submission. With their saffron head-bands and wielding 'trishuls', and screaming full-throated war-cries, these rampaging gangs can cause terror anywhere - which is precisely what they are trained to do. They are 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of the morality of the orders or the consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent RSS leader, personally met the Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini in Rome on 19 March, 1931, visited some important military schools and educational institutions and became acquainted with the Balilla and the Avanguardisti organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the keystone of the fascist system is the 'indoctrination' of youths, rather than education. This is the foundation on which the Bajrang Dal is built. While cultivated ignorance of the youth is one facet which is promoted by the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate falsification of current facts as well as of History is another method of indoctrination used. Lal .Krishna. Advani closely studied the system of propaganda developed by Nazi Germany. He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action developed two other distinctive characteristics: firstly, adoption of propaganda as a key instrument of State policy; and secondly, the systematic development of a demonology to keep the masses in a mood of perpetual tension and hysteria." (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's Scrap Book" ) Advani and his colleagues have tried hard to refine and improve upon the propaganda-cum-terror machinery which was developed by Nazi Germany, specially by Hitler's most trusted lieutenant Paul Joseph Goebbels, whose name has now become synonymous with high-voltage mendacious propaganda. One of the more prominent falsifications which the Hindutva protagonists are propagating is that Hindutva is an integral part of Hinduism. No sensible person, (including thinking Hindus) accepts this claim. In fact, the vast majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of Hinduism with Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly respected religion of long standing. It is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one of the oldest religions in human history. It outlived the ancient religions of the Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and the Egyptians. Hinduism has always been associated with 'sanatana' which denotes timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has never been associated with any particular political system; nor has it ever shown a preference for any particular cultural context. In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through that very path." In sharp contrast to Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is a clearly distinguishable "political" ideology which is straining to concoct a "national" identity based on the Hindu religion. Hindutva is a clearly fascist political movement, which has drawn much of its inspiration from European fascism and German Nazism. The most prominent protagonists of Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav Sadashiv Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama Prasad Mukherjee (1901 - 1953) among others, have derived their ideologies from European fascism and modified it to suit Indian conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the "International General Secretary" of the VHP explicitly says that India is a Hindu Rashtra since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a religion but a synonym for Hindu nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that the rejection of the claims of Hindutva cannot be construed as being anti-Hinduism. In fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of Hinduism by the Hindutva brigade that the Hindu intellectuals have rejected it. The Hindutva fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between Hindutva and Hinduism. They have been able to increase their popularity because they repeat the (false) propaganda that the promotion of Hindutva is the promotion of Hinduism There are many distortions which the Hindutva fascists have wrought on Hinduism. Suffice it to indicate only a few blatant contradictions in their propaganda. One: Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu "Rashtra". The secularism enshrined in the Indian Constitution is violently rejected by the Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they have made a conscious and vigorous effort to create an "international" Hindu community. The formation of the "World Hindu Council" and the creation of the post of an "International General Secretary" of the VHP is a clear contradiction of the claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of creating a Hindu "nation." This contradiction is obvious to every sane person, except, of course, the rabid Hindutva ideologues. The claim made by Pravin Togadia that Hindutva as a "Rashtra" has existed since millennia is patently false. By all historical accounts, whether in ancient or mediaeval India, there were several "kingdoms" or "empires." Among the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan empire of Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 B.C. to 184 B.C.) and the Asokan empire (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other lesser kingdoms like those of Kushana. In the south there were the numerous kingdoms of Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan dynasty and the Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to 1567 A.D.) and the better known Maratha Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the course of history, all these kingdoms were in conflict with one or another with a view to expand their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had been taken away by force. There was never a "nation" called India. Even after the gaining of political independence from Britain in 1947, it was left to Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel to consolidate the various major and minor kingdoms into a unified Nation. It is indisputable that it was under Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called "Princely States" were abolished and integrated into the State of India, which, for the first time in its entire history adopted a Constitution which was to govern the "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim that India was always a Hindu "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it is still seeking to "create" the Hindu Rashtra of its dream. Two: the VHP claims that people who profess and practice other religions cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This is in stark contradiction to the repeated statements made by the Hindutva leaders that Hindutva is a "secular" concept. In fact, they claim that they are secular precisely because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being "pseudo-secular." They continue to trumpet this obvious contradiction that only Hindus are secular and the followers of all other religions are not secular. Yet, they also claim that Hindutva is a "composite" culture which embraces a variety of religions, cults, languages and ethnic cultures. The Hindutva ideologues have never been able to reconcile this glaring contradiction in their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other ethnic cultures, why is it that they are systematically forcing tribals (who are not, and never have been, Hindu) to "convert" to Hinduism? On the one hand they have sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion" legislation in many States; because they are ostensibly opposed to conversions by force, fraud or inducements; yet on the other hand, they themselves are forcibly "converting" tribals, members of scheduled castes and followers of other religions. They offer the lame and unconvincing argument that they are only bringing back these people to the Hindu fold. They have called this movement a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the tribals have never been Hindu. They have their own culture, religion and social practices. "Ghar vapasi" in their case simply does not make any sense. Former Indian Prime Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that "ultimately what they are aiming at is authoritarian rule. Then not only will the minorities be targeted, but also those who do not agree with them. You will be declared an anti-national and treated thus." One of the more prominent characteristics of any dictatorial political movement is the systematic creation of confusion in the minds of the citizens so that they can never be sure of what the truth is. This is done in two ways. One is to spread rumours through the cadres of grassroots level workers, and another is to simultaneously issue "official" statements "clarifying" the official position on any particular issue. This is a very subtle psychological game which is being played by the top leadership of the Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and not fall into the trap which is deliberately created by the Hindutva ideologues. A glaringly example of this "double-speak" is the fact that the Bajrang Dal leaders in Karnataka have openly stated on TV channels that they are responsible for the attacks against Christian churches, institutions and personnel. At the same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the VHP leadership insist that the Bajrang Dal had nothing to do with the attacks. There are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal of the Sangh Parivar to be treated at length in a brief essay, but this short analysis will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions: Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu Solidarity. The entire Hindutva movement is grounded on the principle that India is a Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights of citizenship in India. In this view, Muslims and Christians, in particular, but also Jews, Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as non-Indian. Each time a violent attack is carried out against Muslims or Christians, the Bajrang Dal terrorists shout that the Muslims and Christians should either become Hindus or leave the country. Islam and Christianity are considered to be "impositions" by foreign Muslim conquerors or by Western Christian missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S. Golwalkar are very explicit about this. According to them, non-Hindus cannot enjoy rights of citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned that their continued presence in India is entirely dependent on the "goodwill" of the Hindus and the Christians are "advised" to form an Indian Church under the complete control of the Indian Government, similar to the National Church in China. The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only those who sever their links with any international community and become entirely Hindu will be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India. The stark contradiction in this position is the fact that Hindutva is Not confined to the geographical territory of India; it is sought to be made an international religion. Ever since the famous Parliament of Religions was addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the "missionary" dimension of Hinduism was begun with the formation of the Vedanta Society in 1893 in New York. Today there are Hindu "missions" all over the world, in the U.S.A., in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the West Indies, and in South Africa. The claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a Hindu "Rashtra," is, therefore, patently false. The comparison with the expansionist movement of Nazi Germany is too striking to be missed. First it started with the unification of German speaking countries; then it was extended to include all people of Aryan ethnic stock. Since racial characteristics could not be "assimilated" the Nazis began a systematic extermination, first of the Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. The Hindutva claim to form a Hindu Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud perpetrated by the Hindutva ideologues. From a close examination of the literature available, it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to establish a theocratic Hindu State in India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of neighbouring Pakistan. Tolerance v/s xenophobia. Another myth which has been created by the Hindutva protagonists is the claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and is based on secular values. This is far from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly intolerant movement which thrives on spreading hatred and fear among people. In fact it is so intolerant that it seeks to re-write history, which, according to it, has been written by "pseudo-secularists." Its distortion of history is so blatant that it has even created the myth that Asoka and Chandragupta Maurya were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification of History. All reliable sources tell us that Asoka ruled over a Buddhist kingdom, and that Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the Jaina tradition. The Hindutva view of history is not based on scientific research, but on an imagination running wild. The Hindutva "historians" are worthy disciples of Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and over again, people will soon begin to accept it as the truth. If Hindutva is a tolerant political ideology which respects secular values, why is it that in all the States which are ruled by the BJP there is a systematic attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is it that tribals, who are not, and never have been, Hindu are being terrorized into converting to Hinduism? The Hindutva fanatics claim that they are against conversion by force, fraud or by material inducements. In fact they accuse the Christians of having converted Hindus by offering such material inducements. Yet, the duplicity of their claims is starkly evident in the fact that wherever they have attacked the Christians, independent Commissions of Enquiry have not been able to confirm a single case of conversion by the use of fraud, force or material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear about such conversions. If the Hindutva terrorists have any evidence of such conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. Instead, they resort to violence and terror against helpless, innocent and weak communities. They themselves use force to (re)convert people. The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations of falsehood, force and terror. In times of natural calamities, like the earthquake in Gujarat, they prevented anyone else from assisting the affected people. They sought exclusive rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this aid in a highly reprehensible manner. Muslim victims were carefully and deliberately excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that they swore to remain or to become Hindu. There is voluminous evidence of such discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And these very people claim that Hindutva is a humanitarian and generous movement. Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the Hindutva movement. They should examine all their claims critically; and most of all, citizens should not be beguiled into believing that the Hindutva movement has any redeeming features. It is an unmitigated evil. The battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all faiths, varieties of cultures and languages, are facing a grave threat to the secular, democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We need to join forces to defeat the evil forces of fascism and authoritarianism. The fight is not between Hinduism and other religions. The fight is really between secularism and democracy, on the one hand, and fascism on the other. Averthanus L. D'Souza, D-13, La Marvel Colony, Dona Paula, Goa 403 004. Tel: 2453628 From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 14:03:30 2008 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?WINDOWS-1256?Q?yasir_~=ED=C7_=D3=D1?=) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 01:33:30 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: pk: Cabinet panel suggests drastic changes in FCR In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0810140132p2558d7b6ub2245e78e62dc6a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0810140132p2558d7b6ub2245e78e62dc6a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0810140133s19047d5bj7fc3e99bbb2d49ce@mail.gmail.com> a http://www.dawn.com/2008/10/14/top1.htm b http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=17811 c http://www.ajoka.org.pk/ajoka/burqa.asp it was a blast (ahem) ! http://www.dawn.com/2008/10/14/local14.htm From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 14:57:06 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Glitch in Reader List circulation???? Message-ID: <256530.28694.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   A posting would normally get circulated within a few minutes of having been sent. Now it appears after quite a few hours   Am I alone seeing this glitch in circulation of postings into Reader List? From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 17:29:43 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:29:43 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 47, regarding the police action in Jamia nagar, secular views.? Message-ID: <805611.24335.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com> It is interesting and fascinating how our secular citizens in their enthusiasm to please all the votes and their friends go out of the way to put up silliest of "facts" forgetting that they are safe and secure because of the defence forces guarding the boundaries, police force enforcing the laws of the land. True the individuals in the armed forces and police are also humans, with human flaws, but they are not foolish to lay down their life for a society for vote banks.? Brave police officer who had his progeny in the hospital for medical treatment, needed blood transfusion for the child, but call of duty was such that he left the family to fend for itself, did not bother to take the bullet proof vest, but was in action. If the same were to happen in any other area none would have raised any doubts about the encounter, but as it happened in an area where minority are majority, the questions are raised about the very facts of the encounter, by who else but a "senior" supreme court advovate, who has forgotten the procedure to meet the detainees he has to move the application in the court of a magistrate.! But he prefers to sit on dharna in front of the police station, with a intellectual, from bookers gang, who has understood the "freedom" is that she can take license to condemn the constitution, advocate secession with seditious statements after supping with the terrorist friends.!   No wonder, if individuals in armed forces and police really do a rethink whether it is worthwhile to be laying down their life for a society which "tolerates" such licentious behaviour as freedom?No doubt to be in spotlight, in tv camera frames such juvenile axts are to be condemned, but is it the only way to behave in this nation?   To top it there are members on the list who talk of the encounter being fake, express doubts about the whole incident as all the youth are paragons of virtue, as if none in the society are of deviant behaviour, that too if they are from a particyular faith.? How many of you have really seen inside of a jamia nagar and many such ghettos in India.? Wherever the minority is majority, it is welknown fact that law enforcing is real headache as the goons inside the ghetto take over the management of the ghettos. No doubt there are many good individuals in the muslim community, who are compassionate, considerate, sensitive and humane, but such voices are stubbonly stifled by the "leaders' of the community which normally are the mullas like the bukharis,  who have political axe to grind.?  If any of you have very holy thoughts that jamia nagar is only full of good individuals, then think again, there are enough individuals of dubious character, there are enough pimps and sex workers who assure you all the sensous pleasures for right kind of give and take. Police in uniform can not go easily without sufficient numbers into this area to even inquiries, leave alone apprehending.!  Compare this with any other area where majority is majority in that area, police are capable of apprehending anyone with deviant behaviour, none will object, no write ups from day one to day ten in the blogs, no one thinks that the majority community is targetted for the police action.?    When do we as individuals learn to behave as responsive citizens and respect laws of the land.?For every incident, we try to color it with faith, that is the reason today the individuals get away in a society with their deviant behaviour, as even law and lawyers are ready to take the brief for right figures? In secular governance the nedd is to respect all faiths, but not pamper the individuals of any faith for their votes and tolerate their indecent, criminal and treacherous behaviour because they belong to any faith.! The yadav can loot the chara funds, a obc can throw the dalit into fire, then he is seen as "hindu" but when electon comes the yadav becomes yadav community, jat becomes the leader of jat vote bank, thus hindus have to first learn to be correct and give space to all in hindu society, then none need search the faith of any arabic origin or hijacked religion of betheleham of roman hijack.   One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, Naeem Mohaimen posts  "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself". He too reproduces the news item and gives the weblink.   Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item.   Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- "thanks for forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all over the world."   How should one consider this person Inder Salim?    This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator similarly displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one person for abusive language and not having taken similar action against another person who also had used abusive language ( equally abusive and crude)   Kshmendra               ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:51:12 +0530 From: "Aarti Sethi" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen     Swami To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: sarai list Message-ID:     <48c2916d0810120621s6c5ae31ct1180a9da86db48fd at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" Surely you jest Aditya? I am sure you are fully aware of the word on the street about Pravin Swami. The fact that he has anything to say about the encounter at all should alert us to the fact that it is absolutely fake. No more evidence is needed, than that Pravin the great expert hath spoken. Clearly his bosses in dark and mysetrious places are feeling the heat being generated by the volume of questions, and so like always, he has been instructed to perform his usual ventroloquist act. regards Aarti On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal > security > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have been > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise their > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came > out > in today's newspaper. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > *Behind the Batla House shootout > * Praveen Swami * > > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. > > * > > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, "I've > believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." > > Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have > been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent students, > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators and > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some reason, > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell the > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient > honest > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also > killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. > > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, mundane. > > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat where > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It turned > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. > > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators > determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the perpetrators > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, > calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and July > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became > active > again in Ahmedabad. > > The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the > Ahmedabad > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — > the > sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after this, > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope > that > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough > last month, when his investDEFANGED.154> ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 12 October, 2008 7:21:08 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 47 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. CPI (M) goons kill RSS swayam-sewak by a crude bomb    in Kannur       (Aditya Raj Kaul)   2. Condemning one person's act;    praising the same act by       another. Munaafaqat? (Kshmendra Kaul)   3. Re: Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami (Aarti Sethi)   4. Re: Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami       (Aditya Raj Kaul) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:29:42 +0530 From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Subject: [Reader-list] CPI (M) goons kill RSS swayam-sewak by a crude     bomb    in Kannur To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     <6353c690810112159n1fe64f92occded7f22c5220b0 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" RSS activist killed, shutdown in Kerala town Kannur (Kerala), Oct 11 (IANS) A daylong shutdown was called by the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) in a town in Kerala's northern Kannur district Saturday after the killing of an RSS activist.RSS activist C.K.. Anoop was killed in a bomb explosion at Eranjoli near Thalassery, about 25 km from here, late Friday night. Another activist, identified as Rijesh, was admitted to hospital with serious injuries. The RSS has alleged that Anoop was killed in a bomb attack carried out by workers of the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M). The CPI-M has, however, refuted the charge saying that the RSS activist was killed while handling a country-made bomb himself. Police officials in Kannur said they are yet to confirm whether the death was caused in a bomb attack or in an explosion caused while handling a bomb. Kannur district has been a hotbed of political violence between the CPI-M and the BJP-RSS combine. A bout of such violence in March, triggered by an attack on an RSS leader, claimed at least seven lives. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 05:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act;    praising the same     act by another. Munaafaqat? To: sarai list Message-ID: <793737.90155.qm at web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What should one call it when a person condemns an act by someone and praises an identical act by someone else?   ACT A ------   On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President". He reproduces the news item and gives the weblink.   He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President .........".   (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan Durrani --------- "  WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? UNLESS  THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . HUMBLY IS ACT B -------igators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the > investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad > left > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this > information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. >  'Vodaphone salesman' > > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up > the > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and > shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and > called his boss. > > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the two > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped > corridor > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as > they > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. > When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. > > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, combat > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla > House-style > operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their > resources > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. > > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting > through > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted > with > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. > > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's > shirt > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, too, > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have been > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, > by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More > important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" > representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that > there > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi violence; > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." > > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the > Jamia > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. Much > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit > in which the lies have bred. > > *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > * > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> - ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:21:00 +0530 From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen     Swami To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     <6353c690810120651g1f48d20u93c253865581a49c at mail.gmail.com> Just too amusing, Aartiji. When the fact is too hard to digest, people start deviating towards excuses and encouraging rumours. It for sure tells us how brilliantly Praveen Swami has exposed the propaganda of those few "jhollahwaalahs" working at the behest of politicians and their bosses and enjoying all perks. It is just too disturbing to see those "few individuals" coming to the rescue of Terrorists and their dastardly acts. Where are those people now ? It would have been interesting if similar words would have come against a Terrorist like Yasin Malik; who has suddenly become a Godly figure for all those "few" sitting here in the capital. Maybe, remaining in his shadow benifits their stomach and pockets; so what if he is a terrorist or anti-national. Wah ! You trust street rumours more than an intellectual piece which has been written on the basis of assimilated report from intelligence sources, networking and hard research. Do I need say more on your so proper and honest "verdict" ? After all, Its Aarti Sethi ji who has spoken those golden words. Though I'm no one to defend Praveen Swami; but the fact always remains a fact. His exceptional - blunt 'on the face' articles on Kashmir, Terrorism, Intelligence etc. are in no comparison to other writers or journalists and experts. He exposes them openly. I know it pains you to see how such a respected commentator argues in favour of the encounter. Its just alright. Chill :-) Note of Caution - There is a political game behind this tirade against the Police on this encounter. Common citizens,  genuine media and even genuine activists for that matter shouldn't get entangled in this trap which is in reality to garner votes. I hereby attach only a few letters published in response to this honest article - Opinion - Letters to the Editor [image: Printer Friendly Page] [image: Send this Article to a Friend] * Batla House shootout * It was heartening to read Praveen Swami's analysis of the Jamia Nagar shootout (October 10). Newspapers and commentators, trying to be too politically correct, have been spewing a lot of nonsense on this issue, sullying the dead inspector's name. Rather than confronting the real threat of home-grown jihad these tactics further muddle the issue and foster enmity in the community. Policemen who are operating under the most trying and unenviable circumstances will be demoralised if the media castigate them for not doing enough or accuse them of overzealous action. Some restraint on the media glare is needed to let the policeman do his job. *Arvind Narayan, * *Mauritius * * * * The death of an honest and brave police officer at the hands of terrorists is unfortunate. What is more unfortunate is that some irresponsible and narrow-minded individuals like to see this as the death of some "innocent" kid at the hands of scheming police officers. A terrorist is a terrorist, irrespective of the religion he follows. Belonging to the "majority" or "minority" community does not make his sin any smaller. *Narendra A. * *Bangalore * * * * The security forces, even without negative publicity, are fighting with one hand tied behind their back. The fact that a dedicated officer became a martyr hardly holds any significance for the so-called human rights activists and an equally sensation-mongering media. Strong political and public support alone can wipe out this menace. The other pressing necessity is inculcating basic human values in our children and society. *R.Unni Krishnan, * *Kochi * Love* *Aditya Raj Kaul* * On 10/12/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Surely you jest Aditya? I am sure you are fully aware of the word on the > street about Pravin Swami. The fact that he has anything to say about the > encounter at all should alert us to the fact that it is absolutely fake. No > more evidence is needed, than that Pravin the great expert hath spoken. > Clearly his bosses in dark and mysetrious places are feeling the heat being > generated by the volume of questions, and so like always, he has been > instructed to perform his usual ventroloquist act. > > regards > Aarti > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal >> security >> and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have >> been >> missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least >> portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise >> their >> 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which came >> out >> in today's newspaper. >> >> Love >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> *Behind the Batla House shootout >> * Praveen Swami * >> >> Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the Wonderland. >> >> * >> >> "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, >> "I've >> believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." >> >> Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have >> been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent >> students, >> not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning commentators >> and >> politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to have >> paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the >> shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like this: >> Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up anti-Muslim >> paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some >> reason, >> though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to tell >> the >> tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient >> honest >> officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also >> killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him live. >> >> A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, >> mundane. >> >> When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat >> where >> he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two >> missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch resident >> contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in >> Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy >> Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: the >> mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It >> turned >> out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. >> >> Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators >> determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the >> perpetrators >> between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned that >> the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security procedures, >> calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and >> July >> 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had been >> used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, all >> from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became >> active >> again in Ahmedabad. >> >> The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the >> Ahmedabad >> bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone >> received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number — >> the >> sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after >> this, >> a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia Nagar, >> registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities mounted a >> discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope >> that >> he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. >> >> Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next breakthrough >> last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing >> lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the >> investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault squad >> left >> Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this >> information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either >> provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. Inspector >> Sharma was asked to settle the issue. >>  'Vodaphone salesman' >> >> Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging up >> the >> stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie and >> shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be a >> salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — and >> called his boss. >> >> According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, the >> two >> men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police officers. >> There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped >> corridor >> which led to a second door.. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as >> they >> entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the door. >> When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in to >> support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the now-unguarded >> front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. >> >> It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical errors. >> However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, >> combat >> tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla >> House-style >> operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit >> equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their >> resources >> and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. >> >> Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family >> Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India >> Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two >> directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the >> left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting >> through >> the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was inflicted >> with >> Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. >> >> Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's >> shirt >> was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was >> shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from >> firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop >> films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having >> ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, >> too, >> is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. >> >> In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us more >> about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have >> been >> driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than not, >> by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More >> important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious >> right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan recently >> pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. >> >> In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic >> Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" >> representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that >> there >> is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to >> conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on Israel, >> the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three nations >> [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi >> violence; >> a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." >> >> It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the >> Jamia >> Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. >> Much >> political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and deceit >> in which the lies have bred. >> >> *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm >> * >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 47 ******************************************* Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 18:43:25 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" Message-ID: <246011.80423.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I agree with you Lalit ! One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide. Regards, Prabhakar   ----- Original Message ---- From: Lalit Ambardar To: Samina Mishra ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history. If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route at those uninhabitable heights. Similarly  no concern is shown for those credulous wailing mothers,orphans,widows whose  dear ones continue to fall prey to  pan islamic indoctrination & the  mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from  secular india. Terror commanders who self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks,  courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest & the police action that followed). To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to avenge some perceived injustice back home. And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly. There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie. Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the valentine even. Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building process.Let us stop being parochial & selective. Regards all LA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:59:15 +0530> From: saminasarai at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"> > This is a piece I wrote for India Today but the version that has appeared in> the magazine is an edit that I did not agree to. It's not clear to me how> that happened since I edited the longer article down to this final version> and sent it in to them. But the magazine is out and I am both angry and> saddened at their careless editing of ideas that are particularly under> siege at this point of time.> > So, here is my edit and I would be glad if it was circulated widely on the> net - more widely than the magazine!> > Samina Mishra> > > Not far from L18, in the posh part of Jamia Nagar, is a house on a> tree-lined avenue that will always be home to me. But my life, with all its> easy privileges, could not be more different from Atif and Sajid's, the two> young men shot as alleged terrorists at L18. I contain multitudes, Whitman> so eloquently said. But we live in a time when even multitudes are forced to> lay claim to a singular label. And so by writing this, perhaps, I will> forever be labelled the voice of the liberal secular Muslim. A voice that is> accused of not speaking up. Ironically, it is this very tyranny of labels> that grants me this space in a mainstream national magazine.> > As someone with a Muslim first name and a Hindu surname, I suppose I have> always swung between labels - a poster girl for communal harmony or a> confused, rootless individual, depending on who was doing the labelling. I> went to a public school and have never worn a burkha. I might escape being> thrown in the big cauldron with "Islamic Terrorists" but I will certainly be> added to the one for "misguided intellectuals". While there is no mistaking> that it is zealous nationalists who seek to light the fire under the first> cauldron, the other is a bone of contention between those who seek to define> for me how to be Indian and those who seek to define for me how to be> Muslim. My condemnation of the demolition of the Babri Masjid, Imrana's rape> or the media circus around Gudiya will always be seen in the context of my> privileged background, my gender, my religious identity. Perhaps, it can be> no other way.> > In this rhetoric of binaries of "us and them", it is difficult to find the> space to create a new paradigm of discussion. And so, in conversations that> throw up Islamic terrorists, rigid religious beliefs, Pakistan and madrasas,> the response is inevitably another set of questions - why is the Bajrang Dal> not labelled a terrorist outfit, why is the growing public display of Hindu> festivals like Navratras and Karva Chauth not considered rigid religious> beliefs, why should Muslims in India be answerable for what goes on in> Pakistan, what spaces other than madrasas are available for thousands of> believing Muslims who choose to get educated and still retain their> Muslim-ness. As a Muslim in India today, not only are you fighting to shrug> off the label of fundamentalist- if not terrorist - but you are also> succumbing to a paradigm of dialogue which has been set for homogenous> communities with clear markers of identities.> > But how does one fight that when shared cultural spaces, other than those> created by the market, shrink? How does one speak of the diversity of being> Indian when Diwali is celebrated in schools and Eid just in Muslim homes?> How does one avoid a singular label for experiences that are diverse and yet> have a common thread running through them - the experience of a tailor in> Ahmedabad whose Hindu patrons have stopped giving work to, the butcher in> Batla House who couldn't get a bank loan, the software professional who will> now have to watch every single byte that leaves his computer.> > Being Muslim in India today means many things to many people. But how easy> it is to forget that one fundamental reality. How easy it is to say, as> someone said to me after the Delhi blasts - "These are all educated Muslims.> Don't they know that their bombs can also kill their own?" As if everyone> with a Muslim name is a terrorist's very "own".> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 23:35:36 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:35:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arab Science and Renaissance Art: by Hans Belting at IGNCA Message-ID: <47e122a70810141105k19c9558ev8d792f6744ed6796@mail.gmail.com> presentation by Hans Belting at INGCA on 14th Oct. Arab Science and Renaissance Art. A cross cultural History of Gaze. for those who were not there: Mr. Belting ended his presentation almost like this : In Islamic culture ( the other ) the image has to be inside the book. The image on its own will attain an iconic status which will eventually omit out the details that manifested it in the first place. The image in Islamic art is not outside but something which happens though a thorough understanding of light, both through its reflected and refracted phenomenon. His presentation was quite methodical, I guess precisely because of his acute sense of role played by science in the making of art. That science which was part of Arab culture during ottoman umpire and beyond. He elegantly dismissed what we casually call 'decorative in Islamic Art' This so called decorative pattern had in fact happened because of some acute understanding of science of Geometry in Arab world. The hero of his presentation was Alhazen ( born 950 AD, basra ) http://home.att.net/~mleary/alhazen.htm . He said that the change from Alhazen's work on PERESPECTIVE to OPTICS was like changing it from Latin ton Greek, which immensely distorted his original work based on scientific research. It is not his subject to enter the ways of Sufi dealing with Light, and simultaneously added that it is quite boring to hear only about Quran and Mohammad ( prophet ) when we talk about Islamic world. He also pointed out that even those are doing research on Islamic art need to look into this segment of Alhazen's scientific understanding of perspective and light, without which it is bound to become decorative only, or something else. One of his titles is THE INVISIBLE MASTER PIECE, THE MYTH OF MODERN ART, which he talked about what the other is all about. The culture of the other, becomes invisible because of this western gaze. Here he mentioned himself as the westerner, who is at the same time looking at what is west and what is this other. At that time, of course I thought of Edward Said's Orientalism. http://www.nature.com/eye/journal/v18/n11/fig_tab/6701578f2.html just this slide from his presentation was simply breath taking. He talked about ' gireya ( knots ) which are created by the light passing though various parts of body after going though myriad reflections and refraction in cosmos, So there is no single perspective to understand what is visible. The symbolism, therefore, was radically different from Renaissance in this respect at least. http://longstreet.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/17/blogoptics040.jpg If you know more about this hero Alhazen, please share Love is -- From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 23:53:03 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:53:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: "dinner whore" from Urban Dictionary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70810141123h1f3ef67bo4c7d05921b21ebc@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ana gonzalez Date: Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:21 AM Subject: "dinner whore" from Urban Dictionary To: dinner whore I propose this definition as a challenge to the first definition, which, although substantially correct, is not entirely accurate. A dinner whore is a woman who accepts high-priced dinner dates from successful men with the knowledge that she has little, if any, romantic or sexual interest in them. Nevertheless, the dinner whore accepts these dates knowing full well that the invitation is motivated exclusively by the man's interest in a romantic or sexual relationship with her. The dinner whore is usually of upper middle-class birth, although the genus has been known to comprise the occasional middle-class aspirant. The dinner whore is almost always of average or better aesthetic merits yet tends to regard herself as more attractive than she actually is. She is rarely a knockout but is almost always well manicured and has invested substantial time, money, and effort in seeking to maximize what physical gifts she has been given. The dinner whore is usually youthful (21-35) and is most active between ages 24 and 30. She dwells in all climates and locales but is most often found in a metropolis, with most concentrated in or around New York City and Los Angeles. She has fairly eclectic appetites but evinces a general predisposition to doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, and other men who are associated, however ambiguously, with the world of finance. Although it is commonly assumed that the dinner whore's primary aim is to obtain a high-priced dinner for nothing, this is but one element of a larger and more sordid agenda, which is predicated chiefly on general self-aggrandizement and ego innervation masked by the pretext of romantic interest. In addition to the free dinner, the dinner whore desires to be lavished with attention, even if it is from someone to whom she is not attracted. To the dinner whore, any moneyed attention is good attention. Further, the setting of an upscale restaurant furnishes the dinner whore with a captive audience of other socioeconomic elites, both men and women, who will see her receiving this attention and, she hopes, think better of her for it. Contrary to most assumptions, the dinner whore only rarely has sex with her prey. Although she is clearly interested in a quid pro quo, the ideal exchange is not sex in consideration of expensive dinners. Rather, she is interested in trading the PROSPECT of sex, however illusory, not only for the expensive dinners but also for the moneyed attention and the increased social visibility of an upscale setting. * The dinner whore usually leaves the game in her early 30s, by which time her looks have begun to flag or, at least, be outshined by younger dinner whores. At this time, the dinner whore usually leaves the game and marries a short, balding Jewish man of significant although not overwhelming means. 'I thought I had something going with that chick Kristin, but I dropped $500 at Jean-Georges, and she didn't even give me head. Fucking bitch. She might be just another dinner whore.' - -- http://www.urbandictionary.com/ ________________________________ ¡Haz tu clic solidario y ayuda a África! ¡Puedes empezar ahora! - -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Tue Oct 14 20:01:58 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:31:58 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Glitch in Reader List circulation???? In-Reply-To: <256530.28694.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <256530.28694.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes,I felt it too. Regards LA > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:27:06 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> CC: monica at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Glitch in Reader List circulation????> > > A posting would normally get circulated within a few minutes of having been sent. Now it appears after quite a few hours> > Am I alone seeing this glitch in circulation of postings into Reader List?> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Search for videos of Bollywood, Hollywood, Mollywood and every other wood, only on Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 00:12:43 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:42:43 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> References: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Nothing new - routine Hindu bashing on this forum. Doesn't deserve any response. But still a few observations to help you guys to know your nation better. Netaji Subash Chandra Bose- the hero of the nation had met Hitler & had sought his help in the freedom struggle against the British colonialism. Is he too sought to be declared a fascist? Following sentences in the article itself contradict the very claim in the article that tribals aren't Hindus: In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism> is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular> practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna> tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through> that very path." And this is precisely why Hindus are traditionally secular. Why is it that faith of innocents is being sought in exchange for so called charity? Who dedicated this century to 'one' particular 'faith' in Asia ? It is preposterous to attribute motives to Swami Vivekananda's famous visit to the USA. Hindus have welcome all persecuted communities from world over. It is only in india that Jews never faced any persecution. India is not secular just because the secularism is enshrined in the constitution of India- it is because Hindus are secular & they constitute a majority in this country. Name the country that practices secularism that prevails here . Remember what the Australian PM advised his Muslim subjects recently. It is ironic that it is the very Hindu who is being now taught the lessons on secularism. Who sought the two nation theory based partition of India? Why are you self proclaimed secularists silent over the 'ethnic cleansing' of a minority Hindu Pandit community in Kashmir by those kalashnikov wielding pan Islamists who are seeking 'azadi bara e islam'( freedom through Islam) in kashmir? You know what that former PM was doing when Hindu Pandits were being butchered in the streets of Kashmir- he was having 'laddos' with that known part politician Imam , celebrating his win. Instead of digging in to the history of 'yours' ( that earlier said Ram did not exist & now claims Ram only ordered sethu demolishing), why don't we stick to the idea of India that remained after its vivisection ( Muslims demanded & they were granted land in 1947), that vowed inspite of provocations, to continue to adhere to the Hindu tradition of secularism . Is Shyama Prasad Mukherjee a fascist just because he opposed the then prevailing system of entry in to the state of J&K through permit/visa? It is not to justify any kind of violence. Stop being myopic .This nation belongs to all its citizens. Let us build it on its own traditions. Regards all LA > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:42:13 +0530> From: virtuallyme at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > Dear All,> > Am forwarding an interesting article which explores the concept of Hindutva> and tries to point out the differences between it and Hinduism. The author> puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a political project, grounded in> the principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating and maintaining> an authoritarian state, with suppressive control over human beings.> > He also brings out the difference between the inclusive, open approach of> Hinduism and the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva.> > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there have been many> discussions around similar issues.> > Regards,> Rohan> ________________________________________________________________________> ________________________________________________________________________> UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L. D'Souza.> Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, Ahmedabad" sjprashant at gmail.com> Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT))> > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA> - Averthanus L. D'Souza.> > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a former Secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad> (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus are the Muslims, the> Christians, the Hindu intellectuals and the media." It is very significant> as well as intriguing that Vispute included the Hindu intellectuals and the> media in his category of the "enemies" of Hindus. It does not take great> intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this statement by a very> prominent Hindutva promoter. It is quite obvious that Hindu intellectuals> (nor any other reasonably educated person for that matter) will refuse to> swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by the Hindutva> propagandists to arouse anger and hatred against Muslims and Christians,> for which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person (including Hindu> "intellectuals") will see through the falsity of the arguments which the VHP> advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely because the position of the> Hindutva campaign is irrational and untenable that the propagandists prefer> to recruit uneducated and unthinking followers who can easily be manipulated> to believe anything that is fed to them. The Bajrang Dal, which is> considered to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of the VHP is a good> example of uneducated youth, with more passion than reason, who are willing> to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are conditioned to> believe that heroism consists in slaughtering helpless women and children,> and burning innocent people alive. In this respect the Bajrang Dal is no> different from the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the youth brigades of the> other fascist movements in Europe who were used to terrorize the population> into submission. With their saffron head-bands and wielding 'trishuls',> and screaming full-throated war-cries, these rampaging gangs can cause> terror anywhere - which is precisely what they are trained to do. They are> 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of the morality of the orders or> the consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent RSS leader,> personally met the Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini in Rome on 19> March, 1931, visited some important military schools and educational> institutions and became acquainted with the Balilla and the Avanguardisti> organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the keystone of the fascist> system is the 'indoctrination' of youths, rather than education. This is> the foundation on which the Bajrang Dal is built.> > While cultivated ignorance of the youth is one facet which is promoted by> the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate falsification of current facts as well> as of History is another method of indoctrination used. Lal .Krishna.> Advani closely studied the system of propaganda developed by Nazi Germany.> He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action developed two other> distinctive characteristics: firstly, adoption of propaganda as a key> instrument of State policy; and secondly, the systematic development of a> demonology to keep the masses in a mood of perpetual tension and hysteria."> (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's Scrap Book" ) Advani and his colleagues have> tried hard to refine and improve upon the propaganda-cum-terror machinery> which was developed by Nazi Germany, specially by Hitler's most trusted> lieutenant Paul Joseph Goebbels, whose name has now become synonymous with> high-voltage mendacious propaganda.> > One of the more prominent falsifications which the Hindutva protagonists are> propagating is that Hindutva is an integral part of Hinduism. No sensible> person, (including thinking Hindus) accepts this claim. In fact, the vast> majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of Hinduism with> Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly respected religion of long standing. It> is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one of the oldest> religions in human history. It outlived the ancient religions of the> Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and the Egyptians.> Hinduism has always been associated with 'sanatana' which denotes> timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has never been associated with any> particular political system; nor has it ever shown a preference for any> particular cultural context. In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism> is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular> practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna> tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through> that very path."> > In sharp contrast to Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is a clearly> distinguishable "political" ideology which is straining to concoct a> "national" identity based on the Hindu religion. Hindutva is a clearly> fascist political movement, which has drawn much of its inspiration from> European fascism and German Nazism. The most prominent protagonists of> Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav Sadashiv> Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama Prasad Mukherjee (1901 - 1953) among> others, have derived their ideologies from European fascism and modified it> to suit Indian conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the "International> General Secretary" of the VHP explicitly says that India is a Hindu Rashtra> since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a religion but a synonym for Hindu> nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that the rejection of> the claims of Hindutva cannot be construed as being anti-Hinduism. In> fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of Hinduism by the Hindutva> brigade that the Hindu intellectuals have rejected it. The Hindutva> fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between Hindutva and Hinduism.> They have been able to increase their popularity because they repeat the> (false) propaganda that the promotion of Hindutva is the promotion of> Hinduism> > There are many distortions which the Hindutva fascists have wrought on> Hinduism. Suffice it to indicate only a few blatant contradictions in> their propaganda.> > One: Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu "Rashtra". The> secularism enshrined in the Indian Constitution is violently rejected by the> Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they have made a conscious and> vigorous effort to create an "international" Hindu community. The> formation of the "World Hindu Council" and the creation of the post of an> "International General Secretary" of the VHP is a clear contradiction of the> claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of creating a Hindu> "nation." This contradiction is obvious to every sane person, except, of> course, the rabid Hindutva ideologues.> > The claim made by Pravin Togadia that Hindutva as a "Rashtra" has existed> since millennia is patently false. By all historical accounts, whether in> ancient or mediaeval India, there were several "kingdoms" or "empires."> Among the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan empire of> Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 B.C. to 184 B.C.) and the Asokan empire> (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other lesser kingdoms like> those of Kushana. In the south there were the numerous kingdoms of> Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan dynasty and the> Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to 1567 A.D.) and the better known Maratha> Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the course of history, all> these kingdoms were in conflict with one or another with a view to expand> their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had been taken away by force.> There was never a "nation" called India. Even after the gaining of> political independence from Britain in 1947, it was left to Sardar> Vallabhbhai Patel to consolidate the various major and minor kingdoms into a> unified Nation. It is indisputable that it was under Pandit Jawaharlal> Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called "Princely States" were> abolished and integrated into the State of India, which, for the first time> in its entire history adopted a Constitution which was to govern the> "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim that India was always a Hindu> "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it is still seeking to "create"> the Hindu Rashtra of its dream.> > Two: the VHP claims that people who profess and practice other religions> cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This is in stark contradiction to the> repeated statements made by the Hindutva leaders that Hindutva is a> "secular" concept. In fact, they claim that they are secular precisely> because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being "pseudo-secular."> They continue to trumpet this obvious contradiction that only Hindus are> secular and the followers of all other religions are not secular. Yet,> they also claim that Hindutva is a "composite" culture which embraces a> variety of religions, cults, languages and ethnic cultures. The Hindutva> ideologues have never been able to reconcile this glaring contradiction in> their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other ethnic cultures, why is it> that they are systematically forcing tribals (who are not, and never have> been, Hindu) to "convert" to Hinduism? On the one hand they have> sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion" legislation in many States;> because they are ostensibly opposed to conversions by force, fraud or> inducements; yet on the other hand, they themselves are forcibly> "converting" tribals, members of scheduled castes and followers of other> religions. They offer the lame and unconvincing argument that they are only> bringing back these people to the Hindu fold. They have called this> movement a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the tribals have never been> Hindu. They have their own culture, religion and social practices. "Ghar> vapasi" in their case simply does not make any sense. Former Indian Prime> Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that "ultimately what they are> aiming at is authoritarian rule. Then not only will the minorities be> targeted, but also those who do not agree with them. You will be declared an> anti-national and treated thus."> > One of the more prominent characteristics of any dictatorial political> movement is the systematic creation of confusion in the minds of the> citizens so that they can never be sure of what the truth is. This is done> in two ways. One is to spread rumours through the cadres of grassroots> level workers, and another is to simultaneously issue "official" statements> "clarifying" the official position on any particular issue. This is a very> subtle psychological game which is being played by the top leadership of the> Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and not fall into the> trap which is deliberately created by the Hindutva ideologues. A glaringly> example of this "double-speak" is the fact that the Bajrang Dal leaders in> Karnataka have openly stated on TV channels that they are responsible for> the attacks against Christian churches, institutions and personnel. At the> same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the VHP leadership insist> that the Bajrang Dal had nothing to do with the attacks.> > There are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal of the Sangh> Parivar to be treated at length in a brief essay, but this short analysis> will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions:> > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu Solidarity.> > The entire Hindutva movement is grounded on the principle that India is a> Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights of citizenship in India.> In this view, Muslims and Christians, in particular, but also Jews,> Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as non-Indian. Each time a violent> attack is carried out against Muslims or Christians, the Bajrang Dal> terrorists shout that the Muslims and Christians should either become Hindus> or leave the country. Islam and Christianity are considered to be> "impositions" by foreign Muslim conquerors or by Western Christian> missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S. Golwalkar are very> explicit about this. According to them, non-Hindus cannot enjoy rights of> citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned that their continued> presence in India is entirely dependent on the "goodwill" of the Hindus and> the Christians are "advised" to form an Indian Church under the complete> control of the Indian Government, similar to the National Church in China.> The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only those who sever> their links with any international community and become entirely Hindu will> be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India.> > The stark contradiction in this position is the fact that Hindutva is Not> confined to the geographical territory of India; it is sought to be made an> international religion. Ever since the famous Parliament of Religions was> addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the "missionary" dimension of> Hinduism was begun with the formation of the Vedanta Society in 1893 in New> York. Today there are Hindu "missions" all over the world, in the U.S.A.,> in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the West Indies, and in South Africa.> The claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a Hindu "Rashtra," is,> therefore, patently false. The comparison with the expansionist movement> of Nazi Germany is too striking to be missed. First it started with the> unification of German speaking countries; then it was extended to include> all people of Aryan ethnic stock. Since racial characteristics could not be> "assimilated" the Nazis began a systematic extermination, first of the> Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. The Hindutva claim to> form a Hindu Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud perpetrated by the> Hindutva ideologues. From a close examination of the literature available,> it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to establish a theocratic Hindu> State in India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of neighbouring> Pakistan.> > Tolerance v/s xenophobia.> > Another myth which has been created by the Hindutva protagonists is the> claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and is based on secular values.> This is far from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly intolerant movement> which thrives on spreading hatred and fear among people. In fact it is so> intolerant that it seeks to re-write history, which, according to it, has> been written by "pseudo-secularists." Its distortion of history is so> blatant that it has even created the myth that Asoka and Chandragupta> Maurya were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification of History. All> reliable sources tell us that Asoka ruled over a Buddhist kingdom, and that> Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the Jaina tradition. The> Hindutva view of history is not based on scientific research, but on an> imagination running wild. The Hindutva "historians" are worthy disciples> of Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and over again, people> will soon begin to accept it as the truth.> > If Hindutva is a tolerant political ideology which respects secular values,> why is it that in all the States which are ruled by the BJP there is a> systematic attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is it that tribals,> who are not, and never have been, Hindu are being terrorized into converting> to Hinduism?> > The Hindutva fanatics claim that they are against conversion by force, fraud> or by material inducements. In fact they accuse the Christians of having> converted Hindus by offering such material inducements. Yet, the duplicity> of their claims is starkly evident in the fact that wherever they have> attacked the Christians, independent Commissions of Enquiry have not been> able to confirm a single case of conversion by the use of fraud, force or> material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear about such> conversions. If the Hindutva terrorists have any evidence of such> conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. Instead, they resort to> violence and terror against helpless, innocent and weak communities. They> themselves use force to (re)convert people.> > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations of falsehood, force and> terror. In times of natural calamities, like the earthquake in Gujarat,> they prevented anyone else from assisting the affected people. They sought> exclusive rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this aid in a highly> reprehensible manner. Muslim victims were carefully and deliberately> excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that they swore to> remain or to become Hindu. There is voluminous evidence of such> discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And these very people> claim that Hindutva is a humanitarian and generous movement.> > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the Hindutva movement. They> should examine all their claims critically; and most of all, citizens> should not be beguiled into believing that the Hindutva movement has any> redeeming features. It is an unmitigated evil.> > The battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all faiths, varieties of> cultures and languages, are facing a grave threat to the secular,> democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We need to join> forces to defeat the evil forces of fascism and authoritarianism. The> fight is not between Hinduism and other religions. The fight is really> between secularism and democracy, on the one hand, and fascism on the other.> > Averthanus L. D'Souza,> D-13, La Marvel Colony,> Dona Paula, Goa 403 004.> Tel: 2453628> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Tue Oct 14 19:59:45 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (=?utf-8?B?4KSr4KS84KS+4KSk4KS/4KSu4KS+IEZhdGltYQ==?=) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:59:45 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] regarding the police action in Jamia nagar, secular views.? In-Reply-To: <805611.24335.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <97751.24460.qm@web8401.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Rejendra I agree with everything you say. The police does provide us the protection, and their sacrifice should not be doubted in any way. But you mentioned: "For every incident, we try to color it with faith" Let us assume terrorism has no religion (which everyone says any way), and let us treat the terrorists as ordinary criminals without putting any religious identity on them. Do you agree? Why is it then that the terror suspects arrested by the police were paraded before the media with Arab head-scarves on their heads? I know their faces needed to be hidden by law, but why with Arab scarves? This clearly shows that some individuals in the police (I'm not blaming the whole govt.) are hell-bent on proving that terrorism belongs to a certain religion. And media is their partner in getting the message across. Am I wrong? When some of the arrested boys (from Jamia) were released at the night of 19th Sept. by the police (when they found no evidence of their involvement), the Special Branch officials abused them by saying that "you wretched people (saley tum log) are only meant to blast bombs - that's what your religion teaches you." So, who is bringing the religion in this debate? And why the perpetrators of mass violence from the other religions (in Kandhamal) not being banned after repeated appeals? This is not a matter between so-called Rightists and Leftists, or between Hindus and Muslims. Its an issue between the victimized power-less people and the prejudiced powerful people. Period. SF --- मंगल, 14/10/08 को, rajendra bhat ने लिखा: > द्वारा: rajendra bhat > विषय: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 47, regarding the police action in Jamia nagar, secular views.? > To: reader-list at sarai.net > दिनांक: मंगलवार, 14 अक्टूबर, 2008, 5:29 PM > It is interesting and fascinating how our secular citizens > in their enthusiasm to please all the votes and their > friends go out of the way to put up silliest of > "facts" forgetting that they are safe and secure > because of the defence forces guarding the boundaries, > police force enforcing the laws of the land. True the > individuals in the armed forces and police are also humans, > with human flaws, but they are not foolish to lay down their > life for a society for vote banks.? > Brave police officer who had his progeny in the hospital > for medical treatment, needed blood transfusion for the > child, but call of duty was such that he left the family to > fend for itself, did not bother to take the bullet proof > vest, but was in action. If the same were to happen in any > other area none would have raised any doubts about the > encounter, but as it happened in an area where minority are > majority, the questions are raised about the very facts of > the encounter, by who else but a "senior" supreme > court advovate, who has forgotten the procedure to meet the > detainees he has to move the application in the court of a > magistrate.! But he prefers to sit on dharna in front of the > police station, with a intellectual, from bookers gang, who > has understood the "freedom" is that she can take > license to condemn the constitution, advocate secession with > seditious statements after supping with the terrorist > friends.! >   No wonder, if individuals in armed forces and police > really do a rethink whether it is worthwhile to be laying > down their life for a society which "tolerates" > such licentious behaviour as freedom?No doubt to be in > spotlight, in tv camera frames such juvenile axts are to be > condemned, but is it the only way to behave in this nation? > >   To top it there are members on the list who talk of the > encounter being fake, express doubts about the whole > incident as all the youth are paragons of virtue, as if none > in the society are of deviant behaviour, that too if they > are from a particyular faith.? How many of you have really > seen inside of a jamia nagar and many such ghettos in > India.? Wherever the minority is majority, it is welknown > fact that law enforcing is real headache as the goons inside > the ghetto take over the management of the ghettos. No doubt > there are many good individuals in the muslim community, who > are compassionate, considerate, sensitive and humane, but > such voices are stubbonly stifled by the "leaders' > of the community which normally are the mullas like the > bukharis,  who have political axe to grind.? > >  If any of you have very holy thoughts that jamia nagar is > only full of good individuals, then think again, there are > enough individuals of dubious character, there are enough > pimps and sex workers who assure you all the sensous > pleasures for right kind of give and take. Police in uniform > can not go easily without sufficient numbers into this area > to even inquiries, leave alone apprehending.!  Compare this > with any other area where majority is majority in that area, > police are capable of apprehending anyone with deviant > behaviour, none will object, no write ups from day one to > day ten in the blogs, no one thinks that the majority > community is targetted for the police action.?  > >   When do we as individuals learn to behave as responsive > citizens and respect laws of the land.?For every incident, > we try to color it with faith, that is the reason today the > individuals get away in a society with their deviant > behaviour, as even law and lawyers are ready to take the > brief for right figures? > In secular governance the nedd is to respect all faiths, > but not pamper the individuals of any faith for their votes > and tolerate their indecent, criminal and treacherous > behaviour because they belong to any faith.! The yadav can > loot the chara funds, a obc can throw the dalit into fire, > then he is seen as "hindu" but when electon comes > the yadav becomes yadav community, jat becomes the leader of > jat vote bank, thus hindus have to first learn to be correct > and give space to all in hindu society, then none need > search the faith of any arabic origin or hijacked religion > of betheleham of roman hijack. > > > > >   > One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, > Naeem Mohaimen posts  "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills > Family, Himself". He too reproduces the news item and > gives the weblink. >   > Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item. >   > Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- > "thanks for forwarding the news item which appeared in > all the daily news papers all over the world." >   > How should one consider this person Inder Salim?  >   > This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator > similarly displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one > person for abusive language and not having taken similar > action against another person who also had used abusive > language ( equally abusive and crude) >   > Kshmendra >   >   >   > >   > > >       > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:51:12 +0530 > From: "Aarti Sethi" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout > - Praveen >     Swami > To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: >     > <48c2916d0810120621s6c5ae31ct1180a9da86db48fd at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="WINDOWS-1252" > > Surely you jest Aditya? I am sure you are fully aware of > the word on the > street about Pravin Swami. The fact that he has anything to > say about the > encounter at all should alert us to the fact that it is > absolutely fake. No > more evidence is needed, than that Pravin the great expert > hath spoken. > Clearly his bosses in dark and mysetrious places are > feeling the heat being > generated by the volume of questions, and so like always, > he has been > instructed to perform his usual ventroloquist act. > > regards > Aarti > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned > expert on internal > > security > > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major > areas which have been > > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this > encounter or at least > > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory > or else revise their > > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The > Hindu' column below which came > > out > > in today's newspaper. > > > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > *Behind the Batla House shootout > > * Praveen Swami * > > > > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong > in the Wonderland. > > > > * > > > > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis > Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, "I've > > believed as many as six impossible things before > breakfast." > > > > Ever since last month's encounter in New > Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have > > been claiming that the two men killed by the police > were innocent students, > > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of > well-meaning commentators and > > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. > Few seem to have > > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything > mysterious about the > > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read > something like this: > > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and > whip up anti-Muslim > > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent > Muslims. For some reason, > > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad > Saif, alive to tell the > > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of > an inconvenient > > honest > > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the > Delhi police also > > killed one of their own. They also shot another > officer, but let him live. > > > > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in > comparison, mundane. > > > > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the > door of the flat where > > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for > a man with two > > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, > a Bharuch resident > > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used > as car bombs in > > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime > Branch Deputy > > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar > one small clue: the > > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with > the landlord. It turned > > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad > bombings. > > > > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police > investigators > > determined that the cell phone was one of the five > used by the perpetrators > > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial > bombings. They learned that > > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication > security procedures, > > calling these numbers only from public telephones. > Between July 16 and July > > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five > Gujarat phones had been > > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received > just five calls, all > > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, > the phone became > > active > > again in Ahmedabad. > > > > The investigators also found evidence of a second link > between the > > Ahmedabad > > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the > Bharuch cell phone > > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern > Uttar Pradesh number — > > the > > sole break in the communication-security procedure. > Immediately after this, > > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a > number at Jamia Nagar, > > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The > authorities mounted a > > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to > question him in the hope > > that > > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > > > > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the > next breakthrough > > last month, when his investDEFANGED.154> > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, 12 October, 2008 7:21:08 PM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 47 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >     reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to >     reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at >     reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >   1. CPI (M) goons kill RSS swayam-sewak by a crude > bomb    in Kannur >       (Aditya Raj Kaul) >   2. Condemning one person's act;    praising the > same act by >       another. Munaafaqat? (Kshmendra Kaul) >   3. Re: Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami > (Aarti Sethi) >   4. Re: Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami >       (Aditya Raj Kaul) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:29:42 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > Subject: [Reader-list] CPI (M) goons kill RSS swayam-sewak > by a crude >     bomb    in Kannur > To: "sarai list" > Message-ID: >     > <6353c690810112159n1fe64f92occded7f22c5220b0 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > RSS activist killed, shutdown in Kerala town > Kannur (Kerala), Oct 11 (IANS) A daylong shutdown was > called by the > Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak > Sangh (RSS) in a > town in Kerala's northern Kannur district Saturday >after the killing of an > RSS activist.RSS activist C.K.. Anoop was killed in a bomb > explosion at > Eranjoli near Thalassery, about 25 km from here, late > Friday night. Another > activist, identified as Rijesh, was admitted to hospital > with serious > injuries. > > The RSS has alleged that Anoop was killed in a bomb attack > carried out by > workers of the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M). > > The CPI-M has, however, refuted the charge saying that the > RSS activist was > killed while handling a country-made bomb himself. > > Police officials in Kannur said they are yet to confirm > whether the death > was caused in a bomb attack or in an explosion caused while > handling a bomb. > > Kannur district has been a hotbed of political violence > between the CPI-M > and the BJP-RSS combine. A bout of such violence in March, > triggered by an > attack on an RSS leader, claimed at least seven lives. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 05:28:48 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's > act;    praising the same >     act by another. Munaafaqat? > To: sarai list > Message-ID: > <793737.90155.qm at web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > What should one call it when a person condemns an act by > someone and praises an identical act by someone else? >   > ACT A ------ >   > On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K > Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President". He > reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. >   > He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and > important statement from Pakistan President .........". > >   > (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan > Durrani --------- "  WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . > WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? UNLESS  THERE IS > SOMETHING TO ADD . > HUMBLY > IS > > ACT B -------igators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing > > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. > From Usmani, the > > investigators learned that top commander > 'Bashir' and his assault squad > > left > > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. > Armed with this > > information, the investigators came to believe that > Atif Amin either > > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the > same person. Inspector > > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. > >  'Vodaphone salesman' > > > > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy > task of trudging up > > the > > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. > Dressed in a tie and > > shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, > Kumar pretended to be a > > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's > flat, he heard noises — and > > called his boss. > > > > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by > Sharma's side, the two > > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves > as police officers. > > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down > an 'L' shaped > > corridor > > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. > Sharma and Rana, as > > they > > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the > right of the door. > > When the rest of the special team, armed only with > small arms, went in to > > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out > through the now-unguarded > > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. > > > > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made > several tactical errors. > > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire > will testify, combat > > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or > Europe, a Batla > > House-style > > operation would have been carried out by a highly > trained assault unit > > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. > Given their > > resources > > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could > be expected. > > > > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by > doctors at the Holy Family > > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later > re-examined at the All-India > > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he > was fired at from two > > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder > and exited through the > > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the > abdomen, exiting > > through > > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen > wound was inflicted > > with > > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad > Sajid. > > > > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which > shows that Sharma's > > shirt > > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it > demonstrates he was > > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that > bleeding from > > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — > not, as in bad pop > > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs > of a bullet having > > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his > visible shoulder; so, too, > > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > > > > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the > encounter tell us more > > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the > allegations have been > > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the > product, more often than not, > > by journalists who have not followed the Indian > Mujahideen story. More > > important, though, the controversy was driven by the > Muslim religious > > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif > Mohammad Khan recently > > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > > > > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's > Director of Islamic > > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the > "intellectually dishonest" > > representatives of Muslims who "live in > denial." "They first deny that > > there > > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan > noted, "resorting to > > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi > violence either on Israel, > > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by > these three nations > > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause > for jihadi violence; > > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already > denied." > > > > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove > the claim that the > > Jamia > > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian > Mujahideen is a fiction. Much > > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps > of denial and deceit > > in which the lies have bred. > > > > *Link - > http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > > * > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > - ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:21:00 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout > - Praveen >     Swami > To: "sarai list" > Message-ID: >     > <6353c690810120651g1f48d20u93c253865581a49c at mail.gmail.com> > > Just too amusing, Aartiji. When the fact is too hard to > digest, people start > deviating towards excuses and encouraging rumours. It for > sure tells us how > brilliantly Praveen Swami has exposed the propaganda of > those few > "jhollahwaalahs" working at the behest of > politicians and their bosses and > enjoying all perks. > > It is just too disturbing to see those "few > individuals" coming to the > rescue of Terrorists and their dastardly acts. Where are > those people now ? > It would have been interesting if similar words would have > come against a > Terrorist like Yasin Malik; who has suddenly become a Godly > figure for all > those "few" sitting here in the capital. Maybe, > remaining in his shadow > benifits their stomach and pockets; so what if he is a > terrorist or > anti-national. Wah ! > > You trust street rumours more than an intellectual piece > which has been > written on the basis of assimilated report from > intelligence sources, > networking and hard research. Do I need say more on your so > proper and > honest "verdict" ? After all, Its Aarti Sethi ji > who has spoken those golden > words. > > Though I'm no one to defend Praveen Swami; but the fact > always remains a > fact. His exceptional - blunt 'on the face' > articles on Kashmir, Terrorism, > Intelligence etc. are in no comparison to other writers or > journalists and > experts. He exposes them openly. I know it pains you to see > how such a > respected commentator argues in favour of the encounter. > Its just alright. > Chill :-) > > Note of Caution - There is a political game behind this > tirade against the > Police on this encounter. Common citizens,  genuine media > and even genuine > activists for that matter shouldn't get entangled in > this trap which is in > reality to garner votes. > > I hereby attach only a few letters published in response to > this honest > article - > > Opinion > - > Letters to the > Editor [image: Printer Friendly > Page] > [image: Send this Article to a > Friend] > > * Batla House shootout * > > It was heartening to read Praveen Swami's analysis of > the Jamia Nagar > shootout (October 10). Newspapers and commentators, trying > to be too > politically correct, have been spewing a lot of nonsense on > this issue, > sullying the dead inspector's name. Rather than > confronting the real threat > of home-grown jihad these tactics further muddle the issue > and foster enmity > in the community. Policemen who are operating under the > most trying and > unenviable circumstances will be demoralised if the media > castigate them for > not doing enough or accuse them of overzealous action. Some > restraint on the > media glare is needed to let the policeman do his job. > > *Arvind Narayan, * > > *Mauritius * > * * * > > The death of an honest and brave police officer at the > hands of terrorists > is unfortunate. What is more unfortunate is that some > irresponsible and > narrow-minded individuals like to see this as the death of > some "innocent" > kid at the hands of scheming police officers. > > A terrorist is a terrorist, irrespective of the religion he > follows. > Belonging to the "majority" or > "minority" community does not make his sin > any smaller. > > *Narendra A. * > > *Bangalore * > * * * > > The security forces, even without negative publicity, are > fighting with one > hand tied behind their back. The fact that a dedicated > officer became a > martyr hardly holds any significance for the so-called > human rights > activists and an equally sensation-mongering media. Strong > political and > public support alone can wipe out this menace. The other > pressing necessity > is inculcating basic human values in our children and > society. > > *R.Unni Krishnan, * > > *Kochi > * > > Love* > *Aditya Raj Kaul* > * > > > On 10/12/08, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > > > > Surely you jest Aditya? I am sure you are fully aware > of the word on the > > street about Pravin Swami. The fact that he has > anything to say about the > > encounter at all should alert us to the fact that it > is absolutely fake. No > > more evidence is needed, than that Pravin the great > expert hath spoken. > > Clearly his bosses in dark and mysetrious places are > feeling the heat being > > generated by the volume of questions, and so like > always, he has been > > instructed to perform his usual ventroloquist act. > > > > regards > > Aarti > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > >> An interesting piece by one of the most renowned > expert on internal > >> security > >> and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the > major areas which have > >> been > >> missed by those campaigning hard to convert this > encounter or at least > >> portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better > theory or else revise > >> their > >> 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at > 'The Hindu' column below which came > >> out > >> in today's newspaper. > >> > >> Love > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > >> > >> > >> *Behind the Batla House shootout > >> * Praveen Swami * > >> > >> Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake > belong in the Wonderland. > >> > >> * > >> > >> "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis > Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, > >> "I've > >> believed as many as six impossible things before > breakfast." > >> > >> Ever since last month's encounter in New > Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics have > >> been claiming that the two men killed by the > police were innocent > >> students, > >> not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of > well-meaning commentators > >> and > >> politicians have expressed concern over the > encounter. Few seem to have > >> paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything > mysterious about the > >> shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would > read something like this: > >> Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials > and whip up anti-Muslim > >> paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent > Muslims. For some > >> reason, > >> though, they left a third innocent Muslim, > Mohammad Saif, alive to tell > >> the > >> tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid > of an inconvenient > >> honest > >> officer, depending on who is telling the story — > the Delhi police also > >> killed one of their own. They also shot another > officer, but let him live. > >> > >> A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House > is, in comparison, > >> mundane. > >> > >> When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through > the door of the flat > >> where > >> he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking > for a man with two > >> missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat > bombings, a Bharuch resident > >> contacted the police to report that the vehicles > used as car bombs in > >> Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat > Crime Branch Deputy > >> Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, > bar one small clue: the > >> mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate > with the landlord. It > >> turned > >> out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad > bombings. > >> > >> Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat > police investigators > >> determined that the cell phone was one of the five > used by the > >> perpetrators > >> between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial > bombings. They learned that > >> the perpetrators had observed rigorous > communication security procedures, > >> calling these numbers only from public telephones. > Between July 16 and > >> July > >> 22, the investigators learned, another of the five > Gujarat phones had been > >> used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had > received just five calls, all > >> from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July > 24, the phone became > >> active > >> again in Ahmedabad. > >> > >> The investigators also found evidence of a second > link between the > >> Ahmedabad > >> bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the > Bharuch cell phone > >> received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern > Uttar Pradesh number — > >> the > >> sole break in the communication-security > procedure. Immediately after > >> this, > >> a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a > number at Jamia Nagar, > >> registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. > The authorities mounted a > >> discreet watch on his phone but decided not to > question him in the hope > >> that > >> he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > >> > >> Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made > the next breakthrough > >> last month, when his investigators held Afzal > Usmani, a long-standing > >> lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz > Bhatkal. From Usmani, the > >> investigators learned that top commander > 'Bashir' and his assault squad > >> left > >> Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia > Nagar. Armed with this > >> information, the investigators came to believe > that Atif Amin either > >> provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and > the same person. Inspector > >> Sharma was asked to settle the issue. > >>  'Vodaphone salesman' > >> > >> Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the > unhappy task of trudging up > >> the > >> stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for > Bashir. Dressed in a tie and > >> shirt, just like other members of Sharma's > team, Kumar pretended to be a > >> salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's > flat, he heard noises — and > >> called his boss. > >> > >> According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was > by Sharma's side, the > >> two > >> men knocked on the front door, identifying > themselves as police officers. > >> There was no response. Then, the officers walked > down an 'L' shaped > >> corridor > >> which led to a second door.. This door was > unlocked. Sharma and Rana, as > >> they > >> entered, were fired upon from the front of and to > the right of the door. > >> When the rest of the special team, armed only with > small arms, went in to > >> support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out > through the now-unguarded > >> front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a > toilet. > >> > >> It takes little to see that Sharma's team made > several tactical errors. > >> However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile > fire will testify, > >> combat > >> tends not to be orderly. In the United States or > Europe, a Batla > >> House-style > >> operation would have been carried out by a highly > trained assault unit > >> equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance > equipment. Given their > >> resources > >> and training, Sharma and his men did as well as > could be expected. > >> > >> Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by > doctors at the Holy Family > >> Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later > re-examined at the All-India > >> Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, > he was fired at from two > >> directions. One bullet hit him in the left > shoulder and exited through the > >> left upper arm; the other hit the right side of > the abdomen, exiting > >> through > >> the hip. The investigators believe that the > abdomen wound was inflicted > >> with > >> Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by > Mohammad Sajid. > >> > >> Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which > shows that Sharma's > >> shirt > >> was not covered in blood, with some charging that > it demonstrates he was > >> shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note > that bleeding from > >> firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds > — not, as in bad pop > >> films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, > signs of a bullet having > >> ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on > his visible shoulder; so, > >> too, > >> is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > >> > >> In some sense, the allegations levelled over the > encounter tell us more > >> about the critics than the event itself. In part, > the allegations have > >> been > >> driven by poor reporting and confusion — the > product, more often than not, > >> by journalists who have not followed the Indian > Mujahideen story. More > >> important, though, the controversy was driven by > the Muslim religious > >> right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif > Mohammad Khan recently > >> pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > >> > >> In a recent article, the University of > Delaware's Director of Islamic > >> Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the > "intellectually dishonest" > >> representatives of Muslims who "live in > denial." "They first deny that > >> there > >> is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. > Khan noted, "resorting to > >> conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi > violence either on Israel, > >> the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust > wars by these three nations > >> [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary > cause for jihadi > >> violence; > >> a phenomenon whose very existence they have > already denied." > >> > >> It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that > drove the claim that the > >> Jamia > >> Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian > Mujahideen is a fiction. > >> Much > >> political work, though, is needed to drain the > swamps of denial and deceit > >> in which the lies have bred. > >> > >> *Link - > http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > >> * > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > - ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 47 > ******************************************* > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 08:56:03 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:56:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] EVENT: Many Marxisms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The titles of the the themes to be discussed provide interesting parallels with islamist seminars, particularly in India. Islam and Capitalism, Islam and Science, Islam and Nuclear Energy, Islam and Culture: i can wager at least a hundred Urdu books on each of these themes. Interesting. 2008/10/11 Naeem Mohaiemen > http://mercury.soas.ac.uk/hm/conference2008.htm > > MANY MARXISMS: > > HISTORICAL MATERIALISM ANNUAL CONFERENCE 2008 > > 7-9 November 2008 > > School of Oriental and African Studies, Central London > > > > Organised in collaboration with the Isaac and Tamara Deutscher > Memorial Prize Committee and with Socialist Register. > > Organised in association with the International Initiative for the > Promotion of Political Economy, the journal Situations and the Journal > of Agrarian Change, and with the assistance of the Faculty of Law and > Social Sciences of SOAS. > > Ever since its foundation in 1997, Historical Materialism has sought > to contribute to the intellectual recomposition of the global Left by > serving as an international venue for critical Marxist research. The > journal's initial wager - that Marxism remains a vital, and > heterogeneous and many-faceted political and theoretical tradition - > has been borne out in a conjuncture where Marxist thinkers have amply > demonstrated the critical resources at their disposal (witness recent > debates on imperialism and neoliberalism). Within the academy, the > facile dismissal of Marxism seems to have run out of steam, and the > attitudes of new generations of students and researchers have changed > accordingly. Marxist intellectuals are no longer simply forced to > survive in hostile conditions or to retreat into isolated academic > subcultures, despite an often adverse global political context. In > this setting, they face new challenges, which this conference seeks to > address > > How can we develop the plurality of Marxist debates, fields and > schools without making concessions to eclecticism, narcissism or > compartmentalisation? How do we square the concrete multiplicity of > Marxisms with the strong commonalities in intellectual vocabularies, > theoretical sources and political aims? Hasn't the question of the > diversity of Marxism - of many Marxisms - accompanied the tradition's > entire development, a testament both to its internationalist horizon, > and to the inexhaustible potential of its many critical insights and > conceptual formulations? What strategies can allow us to confront, and > perhaps overcome, some of the disparities or even misunderstandings > born of these processes of differentiation? > > Having tried to foster a form of critical cosmopolitanism and debate > in past conferences, bringing together thinkers working in different > fields, and out of different traditions, this year's Historical > Materialism conference wants to emphasise problems and opportunities > raised by the existence of 'Many Marxisms'. To this end, it aims to > take stock of recent developments in Marxist thought, surveying the > most vibrant recent debates; to confront critical moments in the > historical development of Marxism; to identify crucial concepts and > areas of research that can cut across any preconceived academic > specialisation or geographical isolation of Marxism; to reflect on the > ways in which Marxism has and continues to intervene in mainstream > intellectual debates; and, finally, to generate a space in which the > outlines of the many twenty-first century Marxisms may be delineated. > > > > THE FULL TIMETABLE AND ONLINE REGISTRATION DETAILS WILL BE AVAILABLE > SOON > > > > For more details, please contact: historicalmaterialism at soas.ac.uk > > THEMES COVERED WILL INCLUDE: > > > > Approaching Passive Revolutions * Art and Capitalism * Aspects of > Imperialism * Base and Superstructure * Beyond Global Value Chain > Analysis in Commodity Studies * Bolshevism: Yesterday and Tomorrow * > Capitalism / Knowledge Capitalism * Capitalism and Architecture * > Climate Change, Sustainability and Socialism * Contemporary Radical > Thought and Marxism: Agamben, Holloway, Zizek * Early Modern > Capitalism * Ecological Crisis and Marxist Theory * Everyday Life * > Finance and Neo-Liberalism * Financialisation and Crisis * Food Crisis > * From the Grundrisse to Capital * Future of World Capitalism * > Historical Materialism and Late Development * Historiography in the > Development of Marxism * International Financial Institutions * Is > Today's Capitalism Actually-Existing Barbarism? * Labour-Process and > Resistance * Latin American Left Today * Learning from Enemies and > Rivals: Schmitt, Strauss, Weber * Life, Politics & Capitalism * Many > Marxisms and India * Many Marxisms: Key Figures * Many Marxisms: > Problems and Polemics * Marx and Fetishism * Marx on World Economy and > World Politics * Marxism and Cinema: Film Noir and Neo-Noir * Marxism > and Metropolitics * Marxism and Philosophy * Marxism and the Sciences > * Marxism Outside the West * Marxism, Feminism and Women's Politics * > Marxisms and Literature * Marxisms and Religion * Marxisms and > Southern Africa * Marxisms and Violences: Gender and Race * Marxist > Theories of Practice * Modes of Foreign Relations * Monetary Policy > and Banking under Neoliberalism * Money * Negativity and Revolution * > North East Asian Marxisms and Socialisms * On the Concept of Surplus > Populations * Perspectives from Althusser * Perspectives from Marx's > 'Jewish Question' * Philosophies of Revolt and Revolution * > Philosophy in the Early Marx * Political Categories of Marxism * > Political Economy and Economics Today * Politics of the Promotion of > Global Competitiveness * Racism, Class and Politics * Restructuring, > Capital and Labour * Revolutionary Politics in the Middle East * > Sexual Liberation: Historical Materialist Approaches * Situationism at > the Limits: Must we Burn Debord? * Socialism in Search of an Economic > System * State in the Bolivarian revolution * Theories of Class * > Theories of Imperialism * Time, Temporality, History * Transformations > in the Neoliberal State * Uneven and Combined Development: Towards a > Marxist Theory of 'the International'? * US Financial Power in > Crisis * Utopianism * Value: Political and Economic Dimensions * > 'Western' Marxism and the Anti-Colonial World/Intellectuals * > Windows on Empire: Perspectives from History, Culture and Political > Economy * Workerism: a Generation Later * > > > > PARTICIPANTS INCLUDE: > > > > Rabab Ibrahim Abdulhadi, Gilbert Achcar, Talat Ahmed, Greg Albo, Jamie > Allinson, Kevin Anderson, Ricardo Antunes, Giovanni Arrighi, Sam > Ashman, Antonio Carmona Báez, Richard Bailey, Metin Bal, Colin Barker, > Kate Bayliss, Pınar Bedirhanoğlu, Mike Beggs, Riccardo Bellofiore, > Aaron Benanav, Ted Benton, Henry Bernstein, Cyrus Bina, Werner > Bonefeld, Mark Bould, Pepijn Brandon, Peter Bratsis, Robert Brenner, > Dennis Broe, Dick Bryan, Ergun Bulut, Verity Burgmann, Alex > Callinicos, Paul Cammack, Mauro Farnesi Camellone, Al Campbell, Bob > Cannon, Gavin Capps, Thomas Carmichael, Emilia Castorina, Maria Elisa > Cevasco, Hsiu-Man Chen, Vivek Chibber, Alexander Chryssis, Martin > Cobian, Peter Custers, John Darwin, Neil Davidson, Charles Davis, > Chuck Davis, Gail Day, Tim Dayton, Roni Demirbag, Radhika Desai, Pat > Devine, Paulo dos Santos, Peter Drucker, Jean-Numa Ducange, Gérard > Duménil, Nick Dyer-Witheford, Timm Ebner, Bolivar Echeverria, Juliane > Edler, Ersin Vedat Elgur, Katsuhiko Endo, Sara R. Farris, Lucy > Ferguson, Don Filtzer, Ben Fine, Robert Fine, Bridget Fowler, Carl > Freedman, Alan Freeman, Andrea Fumagalli, Cristina Morini, Lindsey > German, Melanie Gilligan, Ruth Wilson Gilmour, Saroj Giri, Richard > Godden, Maya Gonzalez, Jamie Gough, Peter Gowan, Kevin Gray, Nick > Gray, Chris Harman, Barbara Harriss-White, Owen Hatherley, Cristoph > Hermann, Andy Higginbottom, Mike Hill, Christian Høgsbjerg, Evren > Hosgor, Nik Howard, David Jack, Elinor Jean, Oliver Jelinski, Nicholas > Joll, Ismail Karatepe, Ken Kawashima, Paul Kellogg, Geoff Kennedy, > Sami Khatib, Aykut Kilic, Donald Kingsbury, Nick Knight, Martijn > Konings, Michael Krätke, Rick Kuhn, Ishay Landa, Tim Lang, Spyros > Lapatsioras, Paul LeBlanc, Sergio Lessa, Alex Levant, Peter Linebaugh, > Alex Loftus, Rob Lucas, Dennis Maeder, Matteo Mandarini, Christian > Marazzi, Jonathan Martineau, Paul Mattick, David Mayer, Andrew > McGettigan, Philip McMichael, David McNally, James Meadway, John > Milios, Owen Miller, Andrew Milner, Dimitris Milonakis, John Molyneux, > David Moore, Cristina Morini, Adam Morton, Zwi Negator, Susan Newman, > Jörg Nowak, Benjamin Noys, Bertel Nygaard, Bridget O'Laughlin, Keith > O'Regan, Sebnem Oguz, Ulrich Oslender, Ceren Özselçuk, Maria > Cristina Soares Paniago, Leo Panitch, F. Papadatos, Juan Pablo > Painceira Paschoa, Leda Maria Paulani, Simon Pirani, Iain Pirie, Nina > Power, Gonzalo Pozo-Martin, Thomas Purcell, Diana Raby, Michael > Rafferty, Geert Reuten, Paul Reynolds, Ben Richardson, John Riddell, > John Roberts, Bruce Robinson, John Rose, Thomas Sablowski, Spyros > Sakellaropoulos, Jorgen Sandemose, Saskia Sassen, Michael Sayeau, Sean > Sayers, David Schwartzman, Alan Sears, Lynne Segal, Ben Selwyn, Sanjay > Seth, Stuart Shields, Nicola Short, Joe Sim, Rick Simon, Subir Sinha, > Panagiotis Sotiris, Dimitris P. Sotiropoulos, Kerstin Stakemeier, > Guido Starosta, Marcel Stoetzler, Robert Stolz, Gaspar Miklós Tamás, > Bruno Tinel, Peter Thomas, Massimiliano Tomba, Alberto Toscano, Greg > Tuck, Mehmet Ufuk Tutan, Kees van der Pijl, Jan Douwe van der Ploeg, > Carlo Vercellone, Danga Vileisis, Sherryl Vint, Satnam Virdee, > Andriana Vlachou, Elisa Waeyenberge, Jeffery R. Webber, Dominic > Wetzel, Adrian Wilding, Evan Calder Williams, Frieder Otto Wolf, > Andrew Wright, Steve Wright, Galip Yalman, Iván Zatz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 09:31:04 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:31:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Zardari=92s_overture_to_India_by_M?= =?windows-1252?q?ahir_Ali=28in_Dawn=29?= Message-ID: <13df7c120810142101m1f26877emffccb45c1d67183d@mail.gmail.com> THERE is something remarkably refreshing about a Pakistani head of state declaring that "India has never been a threat to Pakistan." In terms of factual accuracy, it's a risible claim; it would be equally ridiculous, of course, for anyone on the Indian side to proclaim that Pakistan has never posed a threat to India. Could the threatening postures — not to mention the three and a half outbreaks of war — have been avoided? And can they be transcended? The correct answer on both counts, hopefully, is yes. What's more, fibs and illusions cannot serve as the basis for meaningful progress: the unpleasantness of the past cannot effectively be exorcised by pretending that it never really existed. In some circumstances it is indeed wise to let bygones be bygones, but it's important to know precisely what is being relegated. If you turn a blind eye to past mistakes, the chances that they will be repeated multiply manifold. For all that, Asif Ali Zardari's remark about India — made last month to a reporter from The Wall Street Journal during an interview "held under tight security at a midtown Manhattan hotel" — is welcome because it holds out the prospect of India losing its status as Pakistan's primary official foe. If New Delhi senses a genuinely conciliatory mood in Islamabad, chances are that it will be happy to reciprocate. One cannot, of course, be too sure: all too often in the past, hesitant expressions of warmth from one side or the other have been coldly received. Nor can anyone deny that in the past governments on both sides have frequently sought to derive political advantage from the adversarial relationship. In Pakistan, anti-Indian sentiment has even been mobilised to serve as a spurious raison d'etre, a substitute for nationalism in a country bedevilled by regional, ethnic and sectarian rivalries; equally crucially, it has long served as an excuse for bloated defence budgets. For all that, notwithstanding decades of official and semi-official propaganda, the majority of Pakistanis would be inclined to accept friendship with India without a great deal of persuasion. Hopefully, most Indians would feel the same way. After all, cultural and historical affinities between the two countries run deeper than the machinations of shallow politicians and generals.It would of course be premature for anyone to jump to the conclusion that Zardari's remarks signal a sea change in Islamabad's mindset. As has been demonstrated often enough in the past eight months, his words and intentions don't always coincide. It would nonetheless be churlish not to acknowledge that "Why would we begrudge the largest democracy in the world getting friendly with one of the oldest democracies in the world?" is a sensible sentiment vis-à-vis Indo-US relations. In the past, whenever Delhi and Washington have shown signs of getting fresh with one another, Pakistan has invariably adopted the jilted posture of a jealous concubine, refusing over the decades to acknowledge that, given her stature and size, Uncle Sam has always been more interested in Mother India. In his interview with the Journal, Zardari also broached the question of trade with India, saying "there is no other economic survival for nations like us". There can be little question that restrictions on Indo-Pakistan commerce have not benefited either nation. This also happens to be a sphere in which, given the requisite will, considerable progress is possible within a relatively short period of time. And, what's more, growing commercial relations are bound to increase the incentive for rapprochement at the political level. The single sentence in the Journal's report that attracted most attention in Pakistan and its environs reads as follows: "He speaks of the militant Islamic groups operating in Kashmir as 'terrorists' — former President Musharraf would more likely have called them 'freedom fighters' …" The outburst that followed necessitated hasty clarifications from Sherry Rehman in Islamabad and Wajid Shamsul Hasan in London, but neither of them could prevent Zardari from notching up another first: no previous Pakistani leader has been burnt in effigy on the streets of Srinagar. To be fair, only a complete transcript of the president's remarks could indicate whether his condemnation was wholesale or selective. After all, it's hardly a state secret that jihadi infiltrators from the Pakistani side wreaked havoc in Jammu and Kashmir, until the flow was stemmed by Pervez Musharraf. Whatever the case, Kashmiri leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani's riposte that "Zardari made these remarks to please the Americans" is, in all probability, an accurate enough critique that could be extended to more or less everything the president said in New York. It would be a shame if the broader, potentially groundbreaking comments about India were made purely to ingratiate himself with his hosts, with no intention of following through. On the other hand, if American pressure could push India and Pakistan towards amity — as happened under Musharraf, albeit to an inadequate extent — the consequences may well be positive. Ultimately, however, improved relations between the two nations can be sustained only if both of them realise that good-neighbourliness is in their own interests. It comes as no surprise that in his Journal interview Zardari vociferously declared: "I am an American friend." If that relationship is not entirely unilateral, and if he is also a friend of Pakistan, it may behove him to raise the occasional question during bouts of intimacy. Such as why is it that any kind of dialogue between Pakistani authorities and belligerent militants invariably attracts a stern American reprimand, whereas the Karzai regime is being encouraged to pursue the path of negotiations? And why is it that Pakistani exports to the US are so heavily penalised?As last month's report by the US Pakistan Policy Working Group points out, "We raise the same tariff revenue from Pakistan's $3.7bn in exports to the US as from France's $37bn in textile exports to the US. The average US tariff rate on Chinese exports to the US is three per cent, compared to 10 per cent on Pakistani exports." Surely, seeking to slash this absurdly discriminatory level of protectionism would be less degrading than extending a begging bowl inscribed with the phenomenal figure of $100bn? Zardari appears, during his American sojourn, to have charmed neocons and so-called liberals alike. The Journal report was tagged 'The Most Difficult Job in the World'. A companion piece in The New York Times by Roger Cohen was headlined 'The Most Dangerous Job on Earth'. In both cases, that might not be much of an exaggeration. It is undoubtedly a tough job. But there is little kudos to be gained from botching it. http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mahir/mahir.htm -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From machleetank at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 03:55:10 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:25:10 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Blank Noise : Step by Step Guide to Unapologetic Walking In-Reply-To: <277f58b70810141519o177d657ajcd508408e292cc88@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70810131223o516eff61yf1779e92843a6b4f@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70810141519o177d657ajcd508408e292cc88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: *on behalf of Blank Noise best wishes Jasmeen * ******************************************** Hello! Our street actions over the last few years have been based on emphasizing small simple scenarios- which can be challenging even though they appear 'normal' and everyday. For instance- should it be hard to just 'stand' on the street as an 'idle' woman? Would you 'dare' try it? Keeping in sync with that trajectory of thought we have published this poster on the Blank Noise Blog. Here's a *Step By Step Guide To Unapologetic Walking * http://blog.blanknoise.org/2008/10/step-by-step-guide-to-unapologetic.html Some of you who have been associated with Blank Noise for a while may have already tried the step by step guide- in that case we invite you to share your experiences from or try it again! We request you to take charge by volunteering to translate the poster in your local language as well. Do email us at blurtblanknoise at gmail dot com to inform us if you're interested. Ofcourse, your response is crucial to this proposal. share your response here https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=pXj9QqBrUiZ5eWN3JPPMhMQ or simply leave it at the comments section on the post. You could also confirm via facebook: http://www.facebook.com/inbox/#/event.php?eid=30359653023 Be an Action Hero! *yours truly*, * Blank Noise Team* BLANK NOISE http://blog.blanknoise.org http://blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com http://blanknoisespectators.blogspot.com http://flickr.com/photos/blanknoisethisplace http://flickr.com/photos/blanknoise From virtuallyme at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 09:27:56 2008 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:27:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: References: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79e82f610810142057l79af5afey8d29627ef0f7d099@mail.gmail.com> Dear Lalit, Im not sure how you see this article as Hindu bashing. It actually talks about the merits of Hinduism. In fact wherever the author has talked of Hinduism, he has talked about it in a reverential manner. For eg - "It is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one of the oldest religions in human history. It outlived the ancient religions of the Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and the Egyptians. Hinduism has always been associated with 'sanatana' which denotes timelessness or ancientness" Another section, which you yourself has quoted says, "In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through that very path." What I think the author is doing and which I agree with is, to differentiate between the eclectic and all encompassing nature of the Hindu approach and the exclusive, hate driven approach of Hindutva, which also incidentally is a fairly recent concoction (as compared to the ancient nature of Hinduism), courtsey people like Sarvakar, Shyam prasad Mukherjee etc. And also how confusion is sought to be created between Hindutva and Hinduism for the benefit of proponents of Hindutva such as LK Advani, Ashok Singhal etc. You ask, 'Is Shyama Prasad Mukherjee a fascist just because he opposed the then prevailing system of entry in to the state of J&K through permit/visa?' and my response is he is fascist because of his belief in the ideology of fascism which plays out in different ways, including propogating the superiroity of one 'race' over another and therefore promoting subjugation and decimation of others. And to me, if Subhash Chandra Bose hobnobbed with Hitler, Mussoilin and the Fascist axis, sought their help and believed in their approach, he was also as much a fascist as they were. My intention (and perhaps even the authors) is not at giving anyone a lesson on secularism, but pointing out the differences between Hinduism and Hindutva and the dangers of embracing the latter. Sure, I agree the nation belongs to all its citizens, be they Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Jains etc, but then thats not what the Hindutva approach and Hindu Rashtra model envisages! Regards, Rohan On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 12:12 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > Nothing new - routine Hindu bashing on this forum. Doesn't deserve any > response. But still a few observations to help you guys to know your nation > better. > > Netaji Subash Chandra Bose- the hero of the nation had met Hitler & had > sought his help in the freedom struggle against the British colonialism. Is > he too sought to be declared a fascist? > Following sentences in the article itself contradict the very claim in the > article that tribals aren't Hindus: > > *In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism > > is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular > > practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna > > tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them > through > > that very path." * > > And this is precisely why Hindus are traditionally secular. > > Why is it that faith of innocents is being sought in exchange for so called > charity? Who dedicated this century to 'one' particular 'faith' in Asia ? > > It is preposterous to attribute motives to Swami Vivekananda's famous > visit to the USA. > > Hindus have welcome all persecuted communities from world over. It is only > in india that Jews never faced any persecution. India is not secular just > because the secularism is enshrined in the constitution of India- it is > because Hindus are secular & they constitute a majority in this country. > Name the country that practices secularism that prevails here . Remember > what the Australian PM advised his Muslim subjects recently. > > It is ironic that it is the very Hindu who is being now taught the lessons > on secularism. Who sought the two nation theory based partition of India? > Why are you self proclaimed secularists silent over the 'ethnic cleansing' > of a minority Hindu Pandit community in Kashmir by those kalashnikov > wielding pan Islamists who are seeking 'azadi bara e islam'( freedom > through Islam) in kashmir? > You know what that former PM was doing when Hindu Pandits were being > butchered in the streets of Kashmir- he was having 'laddos' with that known > part politician Imam , celebrating his win. > > Instead of digging in to the history of 'yours' ( that earlier said Ram > did not exist & now claims Ram only ordered sethu demolishing), why don't we > stick to the idea of India that remained after its vivisection ( Muslims > demanded & they were granted land in 1947), that vowed inspite of > provocations, to continue to adhere to the Hindu tradition of secularism . > > Is Shyama Prasad Mukherjee a fascist just because he opposed the then > prevailing system of entry in to the state of J&K through permit/visa? > > It is not to justify any kind of violence. Stop being myopic .This nation > belongs to all its citizens. Let us build it on its own traditions. > Regards all > LA > > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:42:13 +0530 > > From: virtuallyme at gmail.com > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Am forwarding an interesting article which explores the concept of > Hindutva > > and tries to point out the differences between it and Hinduism. The > author > > puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a political project, grounded in > > the principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating and > maintaining > > an authoritarian state, with suppressive control over human beings. > > > > He also brings out the difference between the inclusive, open approach of > > Hinduism and the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva. > > > > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there have been many > > discussions around similar issues. > > > > Regards, > > Rohan > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L. D'Souza. > > Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, Ahmedabad" sjprashant at gmail.com > > Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT)) > > > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA > > - Averthanus L. D'Souza. > > > > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a former Secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad > > (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus are the Muslims, the > > Christians, the Hindu intellectuals and the media." It is very > significant > > as well as intriguing that Vispute included the Hindu intellectuals and > the > > media in his category of the "enemies" of Hindus. It does not take great > > intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this statement by a very > > prominent Hindutva promoter. It is quite obvious that Hindu intellectuals > > (nor any other reasonably educated person for that matter) will refuse to > > swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by the Hindutva > > propagandists to arouse anger and hatred against Muslims and Christians, > > for which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person (including Hindu > > "intellectuals") will see through the falsity of the arguments which the > VHP > > advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely because the position of > the > > Hindutva campaign is irrational and untenable that the propagandists > prefer > > to recruit uneducated and unthinking followers who can easily be > manipulated > > to believe anything that is fed to them. The Bajrang Dal, which is > > considered to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of the VHP is a > good > > example of uneducated youth, with more passion than reason, who are > willing > > to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are conditioned to > > believe that heroism consists in slaughtering helpless women and > children, > > and burning innocent people alive. In this respect the Bajrang Dal is no > > different from the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the youth brigades of > the > > other fascist movements in Europe who were used to terrorize the > population > > into submission. With their saffron head-bands and wielding 'trishuls', > > and screaming full-throated war-cries, these rampaging gangs can cause > > terror anywhere - which is precisely what they are trained to do. They > are > > 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of the morality of the orders > or > > the consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent RSS leader, > > personally met the Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini in Rome on 19 > > March, 1931, visited some important military schools and educational > > institutions and became acquainted with the Balilla and the Avanguardisti > > organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the keystone of the fascist > > system is the 'indoctrination' of youths, rather than education. This is > > the foundation on which the Bajrang Dal is built. > > > > While cultivated ignorance of the youth is one facet which is promoted by > > the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate falsification of current facts as > well > > as of History is another method of indoctrination used. Lal .Krishna. > > Advani closely studied the system of propaganda developed by Nazi > Germany. > > He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action developed two other > > distinctive characteristics: firstly, adoption of propaganda as a key > > instrument of State policy; and secondly, the systematic development of a > > demonology to keep the masses in a mood of perpetual tension and > hysteria." > > (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's Scrap Book" ) Advani and his colleagues have > > tried hard to refine and improve upon the propaganda-cum-terror machinery > > which was developed by Nazi Germany, specially by Hitler's most trusted > > lieutenant Paul Joseph Goebbels, whose name has now become synonymous > with > > high-voltage mendacious propaganda. > > > > One of the more prominent falsifications which the Hindutva protagonists > are > > propagating is that Hindutva is an integral part of Hinduism. No sensible > > person, (including thinking Hindus) accepts this claim. In fact, the vast > > majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of Hinduism with > > Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly respected religion of long standing. It > > is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one of the oldest > > religions in human history. It outlived the ancient religions of the > > Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and the Egyptians. > > Hinduism has always been associated with 'sanatana' which denotes > > timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has never been associated with any > > particular political system; nor has it ever shown a preference for any > > particular cultural context. In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism > > is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular > > practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna > > tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them > through > > that very path." > > > > In sharp contrast to Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is a clearly > > distinguishable "political" ideology which is straining to concoct a > > "national" identity based on the Hindu religion. Hindutva is a clearly > > fascist political movement, which has drawn much of its inspiration from > > European fascism and German Nazism. The most prominent protagonists of > > Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav Sadashiv > > Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama Prasad Mukherjee (1901 - 1953) among > > others, have derived their ideologies from European fascism and modified > it > > to suit Indian conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the "International > > General Secretary" of the VHP explicitly says that India is a Hindu > Rashtra > > since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a religion but a synonym for > Hindu > > nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that the rejection of > > the claims of Hindutva cannot be construed as being anti-Hinduism. In > > fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of Hinduism by the > Hindutva > > brigade that the Hindu intellectuals have rejected it. The Hindutva > > fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between Hindutva and > Hinduism. > > They have been able to increase their popularity because they repeat the > > (false) propaganda that the promotion of Hindutva is the promotion of > > Hinduism > > > > There are many distortions which the Hindutva fascists have wrought on > > Hinduism. Suffice it to indicate only a few blatant contradictions in > > their propaganda. > > > > One: Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu "Rashtra". The > > secularism enshrined in the Indian Constitution is violently rejected by > the > > Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they have made a conscious and > > vigorous effort to create an "international" Hindu community. The > > formation of the "World Hindu Council" and the creation of the post of an > > "International General Secretary" of the VHP is a clear contradiction of > the > > claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of creating a Hindu > > "nation." This contradiction is obvious to every sane person, except, of > > course, the rabid Hindutva ideologues. > > > > The claim made by Pravin Togadia that Hindutva as a "Rashtra" has existed > > since millennia is patently false. By all historical accounts, whether in > > ancient or mediaeval India, there were several "kingdoms" or "empires." > > Among the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan empire of > > Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 B.C. to 184 B.C.) and the Asokan empire > > (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other lesser kingdoms like > > those of Kushana. In the south there were the numerous kingdoms of > > Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan dynasty and the > > Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to 1567 A.D.) and the better known Maratha > > Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the course of history, all > > these kingdoms were in conflict with one or another with a view to expand > > their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had been taken away by force. > > There was never a "nation" called India. Even after the gaining of > > political independence from Britain in 1947, it was left to Sardar > > Vallabhbhai Patel to consolidate the various major and minor kingdoms > into a > > unified Nation. It is indisputable that it was under Pandit Jawaharlal > > Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called "Princely States" > were > > abolished and integrated into the State of India, which, for the first > time > > in its entire history adopted a Constitution which was to govern the > > "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim that India was always a Hindu > > "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it is still seeking to "create" > > the Hindu Rashtra of its dream. > > > > Two: the VHP claims that people who profess and practice other religions > > cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This is in stark contradiction to > the > > repeated statements made by the Hindutva leaders that Hindutva is a > > "secular" concept. In fact, they claim that they are secular precisely > > because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being "pseudo-secular." > > They continue to trumpet this obvious contradiction that only Hindus are > > secular and the followers of all other religions are not secular. Yet, > > they also claim that Hindutva is a "composite" culture which embraces a > > variety of religions, cults, languages and ethnic cultures. The Hindutva > > ideologues have never been able to reconcile this glaring contradiction > in > > their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other ethnic cultures, why is it > > that they are systematically forcing tribals (who are not, and never have > > been, Hindu) to "convert" to Hinduism? On the one hand they have > > sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion" legislation in many States; > > because they are ostensibly opposed to conversions by force, fraud or > > inducements; yet on the other hand, they themselves are forcibly > > "converting" tribals, members of scheduled castes and followers of other > > religions. They offer the lame and unconvincing argument that they are > only > > bringing back these people to the Hindu fold. They have called this > > movement a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the tribals have never been > > Hindu. They have their own culture, religion and social practices. "Ghar > > vapasi" in their case simply does not make any sense. Former Indian Prime > > Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that "ultimately what they > are > > aiming at is authoritarian rule. Then not only will the minorities be > > targeted, but also those who do not agree with them. You will be declared > an > > anti-national and treated thus." > > > > One of the more prominent characteristics of any dictatorial political > > movement is the systematic creation of confusion in the minds of the > > citizens so that they can never be sure of what the truth is. This is > done > > in two ways. One is to spread rumours through the cadres of grassroots > > level workers, and another is to simultaneously issue "official" > statements > > "clarifying" the official position on any particular issue. This is a > very > > subtle psychological game which is being played by the top leadership of > the > > Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and not fall into the > > trap which is deliberately created by the Hindutva ideologues. A > glaringly > > example of this "double-speak" is the fact that the Bajrang Dal leaders > in > > Karnataka have openly stated on TV channels that they are responsible for > > the attacks against Christian churches, institutions and personnel. At > the > > same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the VHP leadership insist > > that the Bajrang Dal had nothing to do with the attacks. > > > > There are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal of the Sangh > > Parivar to be treated at length in a brief essay, but this short analysis > > will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions: > > > > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu Solidarity. > > > > The entire Hindutva movement is grounded on the principle that India is a > > Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights of citizenship in > India. > > In this view, Muslims and Christians, in particular, but also Jews, > > Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as non-Indian. Each time a > violent > > attack is carried out against Muslims or Christians, the Bajrang Dal > > terrorists shout that the Muslims and Christians should either become > Hindus > > or leave the country. Islam and Christianity are considered to be > > "impositions" by foreign Muslim conquerors or by Western Christian > > missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S. Golwalkar are very > > explicit about this. According to them, non-Hindus cannot enjoy rights of > > citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned that their continued > > presence in India is entirely dependent on the "goodwill" of the Hindus > and > > the Christians are "advised" to form an Indian Church under the complete > > control of the Indian Government, similar to the National Church in > China. > > The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only those who sever > > their links with any international community and become entirely Hindu > will > > be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India. > > > > The stark contradiction in this position is the fact that Hindutva is Not > > confined to the geographical territory of India; it is sought to be made > an > > international religion. Ever since the famous Parliament of Religions was > > addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the "missionary" dimension of > > Hinduism was begun with the formation of the Vedanta Society in 1893 in > New > > York. Today there are Hindu "missions" all over the world, in the U.S.A., > > in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the West Indies, and in South > Africa. > > The claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a Hindu "Rashtra," is, > > therefore, patently false. The comparison with the expansionist movement > > of Nazi Germany is too striking to be missed. First it started with the > > unification of German speaking countries; then it was extended to include > > all people of Aryan ethnic stock. Since racial characteristics could not > be > > "assimilated" the Nazis began a systematic extermination, first of the > > Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. The Hindutva claim to > > form a Hindu Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud perpetrated by > the > > Hindutva ideologues. From a close examination of the literature > available, > > it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to establish a theocratic > Hindu > > State in India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of neighbouring > > Pakistan. > > > > Tolerance v/s xenophobia. > > > > Another myth which has been created by the Hindutva protagonists is the > > claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and is based on secular > values. > > This is far from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly intolerant movement > > which thrives on spreading hatred and fear among people. In fact it is so > > intolerant that it seeks to re-write history, which, according to it, has > > been written by "pseudo-secularists." Its distortion of history is so > > blatant that it has even created the myth that Asoka and Chandragupta > > Maurya were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification of History. All > > reliable sources tell us that Asoka ruled over a Buddhist kingdom, and > that > > Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the Jaina tradition. The > > Hindutva view of history is not based on scientific research, but on an > > imagination running wild. The Hindutva "historians" are worthy disciples > > of Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and over again, > people > > will soon begin to accept it as the truth. > > > > If Hindutva is a tolerant political ideology which respects secular > values, > > why is it that in all the States which are ruled by the BJP there is a > > systematic attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is it that tribals, > > who are not, and never have been, Hindu are being terrorized into > converting > > to Hinduism? > > > > The Hindutva fanatics claim that they are against conversion by force, > fraud > > or by material inducements. In fact they accuse the Christians of having > > converted Hindus by offering such material inducements. Yet, the > duplicity > > of their claims is starkly evident in the fact that wherever they have > > attacked the Christians, independent Commissions of Enquiry have not been > > able to confirm a single case of conversion by the use of fraud, force or > > material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear about such > > conversions. If the Hindutva terrorists have any evidence of such > > conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. Instead, they resort > to > > violence and terror against helpless, innocent and weak communities. They > > themselves use force to (re)convert people. > > > > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations of falsehood, force and > > terror. In times of natural calamities, like the earthquake in Gujarat, > > they prevented anyone else from assisting the affected people. They > sought > > exclusive rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this aid in a > highly > > reprehensible manner. Muslim victims were carefully and deliberately > > excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that they swore to > > remain or to become Hindu. There is voluminous evidence of such > > discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And these very people > > claim that Hindutva is a humanitarian and generous movement. > > > > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the Hindutva movement. They > > should examine all their claims critically; and most of all, citizens > > should not be beguiled into believing that the Hindutva movement has any > > redeeming features. It is an unmitigated evil. > > > > The battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all faiths, varieties of > > cultures and languages, are facing a grave threat to the secular, > > democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We need to join > > forces to defeat the evil forces of fascism and authoritarianism. The > > fight is not between Hinduism and other religions. The fight is really > > between secularism and democracy, on the one hand, and fascism on the > other. > > > > Averthanus L. D'Souza, > > D-13, La Marvel Colony, > > Dona Paula, Goa 403 004. > > Tel: 2453628 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Watch useful tips on recipes, fitness, yoga and fashion only on MSN videos. > Try it! > From kaksanjay at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 12:55:54 2008 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:55:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Help with a phrase Message-ID: <5c5369880810150025r7e30f0e5k3fd7eb69faaf7cce@mail.gmail.com> Since this List is fast emerging as a one-stop resource on all things to do with Kashmir, I wonder if someone could help with a phrase that I've started encountering quite frequently in posts here: 'azadi bara e islam' (freedom through Islam), presumably as a slogan raised in/about Kashmir. Since this is not a slogan that I've heard in Kashmir in the period 2003-08, and or even encountered (oops! bad word) in my reading of old classics such as Jagmohan's "My Frozen Turbulence", I would really like to know what the provenance of this phrase is. Is this a recent slogan in Kashmir? Is it an old one? With all thanks for the help Sanjay Kak From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Wed Oct 15 13:13:35 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (Fatima) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:13:35 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <249115.40005.qm@web8404.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Lalit If, according to you "Hindus have welcome all persecuted communities from world over", why are Hindu-persecuted communities taking refuge today in the forests and relief camps in Orissa, Gujarat, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Andhra? SF --- On Tue, 14/10/08, Rohan DSouza wrote: > From: Rohan DSouza > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 9:42 AM > Dear All, > > Am forwarding an interesting article which explores the > concept of Hindutva > and tries to point out the differences between it and > Hinduism. The author > puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a political > project, grounded in > the principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating > and maintaining > an authoritarian state, with suppressive control over human > beings. > > He also brings out the difference between the inclusive, > open approach of > Hinduism and the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva. > > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there have > been many > discussions around similar issues. > > Regards, > Rohan > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L. > D'Souza. > Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, Ahmedabad" > sjprashant at gmail.com > Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT)) > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA > - Averthanus L. D'Souza. > > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a former Secretary of the Vishwa > Hindu Parishad > (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus are > the Muslims, the > Christians, the Hindu intellectuals and the media." > It is very significant > as well as intriguing that Vispute included the Hindu > intellectuals and the > media in his category of the "enemies" of Hindus. > It does not take great > intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this > statement by a very > prominent Hindutva promoter. It is quite obvious that > Hindu intellectuals > (nor any other reasonably educated person for that matter) > will refuse to > swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by > the Hindutva > propagandists to arouse anger and hatred against Muslims > and Christians, > for which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person > (including Hindu > "intellectuals") will see through the falsity of > the arguments which the VHP > advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely because > the position of the > Hindutva campaign is irrational and untenable that the > propagandists prefer > to recruit uneducated and unthinking followers who can > easily be manipulated > to believe anything that is fed to them. The Bajrang > Dal, which is > considered to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of > the VHP is a good > example of uneducated youth, with more passion than reason, > who are willing > to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are > conditioned to > believe that heroism consists in slaughtering helpless > women and children, > and burning innocent people alive. In this respect the > Bajrang Dal is no > different from the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the > youth brigades of the > other fascist movements in Europe who were used to > terrorize the population > into submission. With their saffron head-bands and > wielding 'trishuls', > and screaming full-throated war-cries, these rampaging > gangs can cause > terror anywhere - which is precisely what they are trained > to do. They are > 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of the > morality of the orders or > the consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent > RSS leader, > personally met the Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini > in Rome on 19 > March, 1931, visited some important military schools and > educational > institutions and became acquainted with the Balilla and the > Avanguardisti > organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the > keystone of the fascist > system is the 'indoctrination' of youths, rather > than education. This is > the foundation on which the Bajrang Dal is built. > > While cultivated ignorance of the youth is one facet which > is promoted by > the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate falsification of > current facts as well > as of History is another method of indoctrination used. > Lal .Krishna. > Advani closely studied the system of propaganda developed > by Nazi Germany. > He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action > developed two other > distinctive characteristics: firstly, adoption of > propaganda as a key > instrument of State policy; and secondly, the systematic > development of a > demonology to keep the masses in a mood of perpetual > tension and hysteria." > (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's Scrap Book" ) > Advani and his colleagues have > tried hard to refine and improve upon the > propaganda-cum-terror machinery > which was developed by Nazi Germany, specially by > Hitler's most trusted > lieutenant Paul Joseph Goebbels, whose name has now become > synonymous with > high-voltage mendacious propaganda. > > One of the more prominent falsifications which the Hindutva > protagonists are > propagating is that Hindutva is an integral part of > Hinduism. No sensible > person, (including thinking Hindus) accepts this claim. > In fact, the vast > majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of > Hinduism with > Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly respected religion of > long standing. It > is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one > of the oldest > religions in human history. It outlived the ancient > religions of the > Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and > the Egyptians. > Hinduism has always been associated with > 'sanatana' which denotes > timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has never been > associated with any > particular political system; nor has it ever shown a > preference for any > particular cultural context. In the broadest sense of the > word, Hinduism > is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of > rituals, beliefs, popular > practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, > Lord Krishna > tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I > accept them through > that very path." > > In sharp contrast to Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is > a clearly > distinguishable "political" ideology which is > straining to concoct a > "national" identity based on the Hindu religion. > Hindutva is a clearly > fascist political movement, which has drawn much of its > inspiration from > European fascism and German Nazism. The most prominent > protagonists of > Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav > Sadashiv > Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama Prasad Mukherjee (1901 - > 1953) among > others, have derived their ideologies from European fascism > and modified it > to suit Indian conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the > "International > General Secretary" of the VHP explicitly says that > India is a Hindu Rashtra > since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a religion but a > synonym for Hindu > nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that > the rejection of > the claims of Hindutva cannot be construed as being > anti-Hinduism. In > fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of > Hinduism by the Hindutva > brigade that the Hindu intellectuals have rejected it. > The Hindutva > fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between > Hindutva and Hinduism. > They have been able to increase their popularity because > they repeat the > (false) propaganda that the promotion of Hindutva is the > promotion of > Hinduism > > There are many distortions which the Hindutva fascists have > wrought on > Hinduism. Suffice it to indicate only a few blatant > contradictions in > their propaganda. > > One: Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu > "Rashtra". The > secularism enshrined in the Indian Constitution is > violently rejected by the > Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they have made a > conscious and > vigorous effort to create an "international" > Hindu community. The > formation of the "World Hindu Council" and the > creation of the post of an > "International General Secretary" of the VHP is a > clear contradiction of the > claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of creating > a Hindu > "nation." This contradiction is obvious to > every sane person, except, of > course, the rabid Hindutva ideologues. > > The claim made by Pravin Togadia that Hindutva as a > "Rashtra" has existed > since millennia is patently false. By all historical > accounts, whether in > ancient or mediaeval India, there were several > "kingdoms" or "empires." > Among the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan > empire of > Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 B.C. to 184 B.C.) and > the Asokan empire > (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other > lesser kingdoms like > those of Kushana. In the south there were the numerous > kingdoms of > Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan > dynasty and the > Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to 1567 A.D.) and the better > known Maratha > Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the > course of history, all > these kingdoms were in conflict with one or another with a > view to expand > their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had been taken > away by force. > There was never a "nation" called India. Even > after the gaining of > political independence from Britain in 1947, it was left > to Sardar > Vallabhbhai Patel to consolidate the various major and > minor kingdoms into a > unified Nation. It is indisputable that it was under > Pandit Jawaharlal > Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called > "Princely States" were > abolished and integrated into the State of India, which, > for the first time > in its entire history adopted a Constitution which was to > govern the > "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim > that India was always a Hindu > "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it is > still seeking to "create" > the Hindu Rashtra of its dream. > > Two: the VHP claims that people who profess and practice > other religions > cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This is in stark > contradiction to the > repeated statements made by the Hindutva leaders that > Hindutva is a > "secular" concept. In fact, they claim that they > are secular precisely > because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being > "pseudo-secular." > They continue to trumpet this obvious contradiction that > only Hindus are > secular and the followers of all other religions are not > secular. Yet, > they also claim that Hindutva is a "composite" > culture which embraces a > variety of religions, cults, languages and ethnic cultures. > The Hindutva > ideologues have never been able to reconcile this glaring > contradiction in > their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other > ethnic cultures, why is it > that they are systematically forcing tribals (who are not, > and never have > been, Hindu) to "convert" to Hinduism? On the > one hand they have > sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion" > legislation in many States; > because they are ostensibly opposed to conversions by > force, fraud or > inducements; yet on the other hand, they themselves are > forcibly > "converting" tribals, members of scheduled castes > and followers of other > religions. They offer the lame and unconvincing argument > that they are only > bringing back these people to the Hindu fold. They have > called this > movement a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the > tribals have never been > Hindu. They have their own culture, religion and social > practices. "Ghar > vapasi" in their case simply does not make any sense. > Former Indian Prime > Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that > "ultimately what they are > aiming at is authoritarian rule. Then not only will the > minorities be > targeted, but also those who do not agree with them. You > will be declared an > anti-national and treated thus." > > One of the more prominent characteristics of any > dictatorial political > movement is the systematic creation of confusion in the > minds of the > citizens so that they can never be sure of what the truth > is. This is done > in two ways. One is to spread rumours through the cadres > of grassroots > level workers, and another is to simultaneously issue > "official" statements > "clarifying" the official position on any > particular issue. This is a very > subtle psychological game which is being played by the top > leadership of the > Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and > not fall into the > trap which is deliberately created by the Hindutva > ideologues. A glaringly > example of this "double-speak" is the fact that > the Bajrang Dal leaders in > Karnataka have openly stated on TV channels that they are > responsible for > the attacks against Christian churches, institutions and > personnel. At the > same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the VHP > leadership insist > that the Bajrang Dal had nothing to do with the attacks. > > There are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal > of the Sangh > Parivar to be treated at length in a brief essay, but this > short analysis > will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions: > > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu Solidarity. > > The entire Hindutva movement is grounded on the principle > that India is a > Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights of > citizenship in India. > In this view, Muslims and Christians, in particular, but > also Jews, > Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as non-Indian. > Each time a violent > attack is carried out against Muslims or Christians, the > Bajrang Dal > terrorists shout that the Muslims and Christians should > either become Hindus > or leave the country. Islam and Christianity are > considered to be > "impositions" by foreign Muslim conquerors or by > Western Christian > missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S. > Golwalkar are very > explicit about this. According to them, non-Hindus cannot > enjoy rights of > citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned that their > continued > presence in India is entirely dependent on the > "goodwill" of the Hindus and > the Christians are "advised" to form an Indian > Church under the complete > control of the Indian Government, similar to the National > Church in China. > The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only > those who sever > their links with any international community and become > entirely Hindu will > be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India. > > The stark contradiction in this position is the fact that > Hindutva is Not > confined to the geographical territory of India; it is > sought to be made an > international religion. Ever since the famous Parliament > of Religions was > addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the > "missionary" dimension of > Hinduism was begun with the formation of the Vedanta > Society in 1893 in New > York. Today there are Hindu "missions" all > over the world, in the U.S.A., > in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the West Indies, and > in South Africa. > The claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a > Hindu "Rashtra," is, > therefore, patently false. The comparison with the > expansionist movement > of Nazi Germany is too striking to be missed. First it > started with the > unification of German speaking countries; then it was > extended to include > all people of Aryan ethnic stock. Since racial > characteristics could not be > "assimilated" the Nazis began a systematic > extermination, first of the > Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. > The Hindutva claim to > form a Hindu Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud > perpetrated by the > Hindutva ideologues. From a close examination of the > literature available, > it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to establish a > theocratic Hindu > State in India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of > neighbouring > Pakistan. > > Tolerance v/s xenophobia. > > Another myth which has been created by the Hindutva > protagonists is the > claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and is based on > secular values. > This is far from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly > intolerant movement > which thrives on spreading hatred and fear among people. > In fact it is so > intolerant that it seeks to re-write history, which, > according to it, has > been written by "pseudo-secularists." Its > distortion of history is so > blatant that it has even created the myth that Asoka and > Chandragupta > Maurya were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification > of History. All > reliable sources tell us that Asoka ruled over a Buddhist > kingdom, and that > Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the Jaina > tradition. The > Hindutva view of history is not based on scientific > research, but on an > imagination running wild. The Hindutva > "historians" are worthy disciples > of Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and > over again, people > will soon begin to accept it as the truth. > > If Hindutva is a tolerant political ideology which respects > secular values, > why is it that in all the States which are ruled by the BJP > there is a > systematic attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is > it that tribals, > who are not, and never have been, Hindu are being > terrorized into converting > to Hinduism? > > The Hindutva fanatics claim that they are against > conversion by force, fraud > or by material inducements. In fact they accuse the > Christians of having > converted Hindus by offering such material inducements. > Yet, the duplicity > of their claims is starkly evident in the fact that > wherever they have > attacked the Christians, independent Commissions of > Enquiry have not been > able to confirm a single case of conversion by the use of > fraud, force or > material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear > about such > conversions. If the Hindutva terrorists have any evidence > of such > conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. > Instead, they resort to > violence and terror against helpless, innocent and weak > communities. They > themselves use force to (re)convert people. > > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations of > falsehood, force and > terror. In times of natural calamities, like the > earthquake in Gujarat, > they prevented anyone else from assisting the affected > people. They sought > exclusive rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this > aid in a highly > reprehensible manner. Muslim victims were carefully and > deliberately > excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that > they swore to > remain or to become Hindu. There is voluminous evidence > of such > discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And > these very people > claim that Hindutva is a humanitarian and generous > movement. > > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the Hindutva > movement. They > should examine all their claims critically; and most of > all, citizens > should not be beguiled into believing that the Hindutva > movement has any > redeeming features. It is an unmitigated evil. > > The battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all > faiths, varieties of > cultures and languages, are facing a grave threat to the > secular, > democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We > need to join > forces to defeat the evil forces of fascism and > authoritarianism. The > fight is not between Hinduism and other religions. The > fight is really > between secularism and democracy, on the one hand, and > fascism on the other. > > Averthanus L. D'Souza, > D-13, La Marvel Colony, > Dona Paula, Goa 403 004. > Tel: 2453628 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 14:20:34 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" In-Reply-To: <246011.80423.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <674825.57868.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Prabhakar   Unless I remember incorrectly, you are a poet, are you not? Where is your sensitivity?   Samina certainly has not "blamed Hindus for everything" nor does, what she has written, suggest that "her hate for Hindus is so intense". Where is your honesty?   Try and understand this:   - There are some who are very conscious of their Hindu identity. They have many concerns about the attacks that take place on that identity from the State or elements from outside the Hindu fold.   - From amongst those who are very conscious of their Hindu identity, there are Hindus who are higly concerned about many acts that are taking place in the name of Hindus from within the Hindu fold.   - There are also some WHO ARE NOT OBSESSED with their Hindu identity but get identified as Hindus and therefore also have concerns about acts against Hindus from the State, or from outside the Hindu fold, or from within the Hindu fold.   SIMILARLY, there are such identical paradigms amongst the Muslims and Christians etc.    Someone who truly loves India would be a fool to ignore that or dismiss it. Taking the example of Muslims:   - There are some Muslims who are very conscious of their Islamic identity. They have many concerns about the attacks that take place on that identity from the State or elements from outside the fold of Muslims.   - From amongst those who are very conscious of their Islamic identity, there are Muslims  who are higly concerned about many acts that are taking place in the name of Islam from within the Muslim fold.   - There are also some Muslims WHO ARE NOT OBSESSED with their Islamic identity but get identified as Muslims and therefore also have concerns about acts against Muslims from the State, or from outside the fold of Muslims, or from within the Muslim fold.   Now read Samina's article again and you might have a more sensitive appreciation of what she is trying to convey. That does not mean that you have to agree with everything she has written.   I am reproducing below, the (only) critical part of Samina's writing that was edited out by India Today:   """""" As a Muslim in India today, not only are you fighting to shrug off the label of fundamentalist - if not terrorist - but you are also succumbing to a paradigm of dialogue which has been set for homogenous communities with clear markers of identities. """""    Incidentally, asking someone to keep or remove a 'surname' is none of your business.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: From: Prabhakar Singh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" To: "Lalit Ambardar" , "Samina Mishra" , reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2008, 6:43 PM I agree with you Lalit ! One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide. Regards, Prabhakar   ----- Original Message ---- From: Lalit Ambardar To: Samina Mishra ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history. If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route at those uninhabitable heights. Similarly  no concern is shown for those credulous wailing mothers,orphans,widows whose  dear ones continue to fall prey to  pan islamic indoctrination & the  mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from  secular india. Terror commanders who self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks,  courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest & the police action that followed). To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to avenge some perceived injustice back home. And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly. There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie. Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the valentine even. Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building process.Let us stop being parochial & selective. Regards all LA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:59:15 +0530> From: saminasarai at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"> > This is a piece I wrote for India Today but the version that has appeared in> the magazine is an edit that I did not agree to. It's not clear to me how> that happened since I edited the longer article down to this final version> and sent it in to them. But the magazine is out and I am both angry and> saddened at their careless editing of ideas that are particularly under> siege at this point of time.> > So, here is my edit and I would be glad if it was circulated widely on the> net - more widely than the magazine!> > Samina Mishra> > > Not far from L18, in the posh part of Jamia Nagar, is a house on a> tree-lined avenue that will always be home to me. But my life, with all its> easy privileges, could not be more different from Atif and Sajid's, the two> young men shot as alleged terrorists at L18. I contain multitudes, Whitman> so eloquently said. But we live in a time when even multitudes are forced to> lay claim to a singular label. And so by writing this, perhaps, I will> forever be labelled the voice of the liberal secular Muslim. A voice that is> accused of not speaking up. Ironically, it is this very tyranny of labels> that grants me this space in a mainstream national magazine.> > As someone with a Muslim first name and a Hindu surname, I suppose I have> always swung between labels - a poster girl for communal harmony or a> confused, rootless individual, depending on who was doing the labelling. I> went to a public school and have never worn a burkha. I might escape being> thrown in the big cauldron with "Islamic Terrorists" but I will certainly be> added to the one for "misguided intellectuals". While there is no mistaking> that it is zealous nationalists who seek to light the fire under the first> cauldron, the other is a bone of contention between those who seek to define> for me how to be Indian and those who seek to define for me how to be> Muslim. My condemnation of the demolition of the Babri Masjid, Imrana's rape> or the media circus around Gudiya will always be seen in the context of my> privileged background, my gender, my religious identity. Perhaps, it can be> no other way.> > In this rhetoric of binaries of "us and them", it is difficult to find the> space to create a new paradigm of discussion. And so, in conversations that> throw up Islamic terrorists, rigid religious beliefs, Pakistan and madrasas,> the response is inevitably another set of questions - why is the Bajrang Dal> not labelled a terrorist outfit, why is the growing public display of Hindu> festivals like Navratras and Karva Chauth not considered rigid religious> beliefs, why should Muslims in India be answerable for what goes on in> Pakistan, what spaces other than madrasas are available for thousands of> believing Muslims who choose to get educated and still retain their> Muslim-ness. As a Muslim in India today, not only are you fighting to shrug> off the label of fundamentalist- if not terrorist - but you are also> succumbing to a paradigm of dialogue which has been set for homogenous> communities with clear markers of identities.> > But how does one fight that when shared cultural spaces, other than those> created by the market, shrink? How does one speak of the diversity of being> Indian when Diwali is celebrated in schools and Eid just in Muslim homes?> How does one avoid a singular label for experiences that are diverse and yet> have a common thread running through them - the experience of a tailor in> Ahmedabad whose Hindu patrons have stopped giving work to, the butcher in> Batla House who couldn't get a bank loan, the software professional who will> now have to watch every single byte that leaves his computer.> > Being Muslim in India today means many things to many people. But how easy> it is to forget that one fundamental reality. How easy it is to say, as> someone said to me after the Delhi blasts - "These are all educated Muslims.> Don't they know that their bombs can also kill their own?" As if everyone> with a Muslim name is a terrorist's very "own".> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. 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To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 15 14:45:56 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:45:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Nagar Encounter: Was it a Recce or a Planned Raid Message-ID: <7AE224EC-038D-4503-9BE8-F64807518053@sarai.net> Dear All, In light of the continuing discussions on the Jamia Nagar/Batla House encounter - here is a recent text by Aziz Burney, Editor, Rashtriya Sahra (Urdu), Delhi. It appeared yesterday on Kafila.org regards Shuddha -------------------------------------------- Was it a recce or a planned raid? Aziz Burney,Editor, Rashtriya Sahara (Urdu), Delhi http://kafila.org/2008/10/14/was-it-a-recce-or-a-planned-raid/ It is a truth universally acknowledged that anything viewed from various angles presents various shapes. It is also a fact that your angle of view determines to a large extent the picture registered by your brain. An askew angle of view is bound to distort the picture. Reality defies comprehension without proper perspective. To date, we have not been able to understand what kind of picture the Delhi police is trying to draw in order to explain the incidents of September 19 as they happened. There can be only three possibilities about the ‘encounter’: (1) it was planned and could not be properly executed; (2) it was a I recce’ that tamed into a premature clash due to someone’s misplaced enthusiasm (3) it was a hurriedly planned exercise under orders to “do something, anything, about the Delhi blasts to appease the angry opposition parties and save the honour and position of the minister held responsible. Since the police, or any other authority for that matter, shall never acknowledge the third possibility which can only emerge from a fair and thorough enquiry, we take up the first two possibilities to one of which the police will have to stick once and for all. The very first version (and how self-congratulatory it was) given out by the police was that they had successfully “worked out” the case after ‘painstaking’ investigations. This would mean that the raid at L-18 was planned in advance after the police had finally determined the identities of “terrorists” and their respective roles in Delhi blasts. However, after serious questions were raised about the manner in which the two boys were brutally killed and one of their important and highly decorated officers lost his life (there is now a mystery shrouding the death of Inspector Sharma as well) the police did a turnaround and said that it was basically a recce (reconnaissance) undertaken to take stock of the situation and determine and confirm the identities of the suspects. The subject, in its present shape, requires a very detailed probe and analysis. But the pivotal point for our discussion today is the presence on the spot at the material time of a senior police officer, namely. Alok Kumar, Deputy Commissioner of Police posted in the Special Operations cell of Delhi Police. Now, a DCP is a Class-I officer of Govt. of India. In the official hierarchy, the position of a class-I officer is that of an official representative and spokesperson of the government. In certain postings all class-I officers, be they from administrative or police services, enjoy even judicial powers. A DCP, posted anywhere as a police officer, is considered to be the head of his branch or section. He is responsible in every way for all officers and men under his command and even routine matters and day to day working of his unit requires his sanction and approval. Seen in this light, the presence of DCP Alok Kumar outside L-18 on September 19, 2008 bespeaks a well-organized, well-orchestrated and well-supervised operation to achieve one of the three above-mentioned possibilities. As a general rule, senior officers are not supposed to accompany the raiding parties unless the nature of operation is so sensitive as to necessitate their presence for various reasons ranging from answerability to public and/or government to ensuring the success of the operation for a political exigency due to immense public pressure which was the case at the time. In this scenario, DCP ALOK KUMAR IS PERSONALLY, OFFICIALLY AND TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE INCIDENTS OF SEPTEMBER 19, 2008 IN GENERAL AND FOR THE AVOIDABLE, UNFORTUNATE AND UNTIMELY DEATH OF INSPECTOR SHARMA IN PARTICULAR. And DCP Alok Kumar has not been questioned by anyone, far less by the electronic media, a section of which has made such a song and dance about the ‘eyewitness’ account of head constable Balwant Rana who was admitted to a ‘trauma’ center of a reputed govt. hospital for a laceration on his right arm while the fatally wounded Inspector Sharma was taken to an ill equipped charitable hospital despite the fact that two state of the art specialty hospitals viz. Escorts and Apollo were respectively two and seven minutes away. We have collected some vitally important material regarding the background and the manner in which Inspector Sharma was injured and taken to hospital and it will be brought forth after a few more facts are verified. For now, we pose the following questions, which have to be answered considering the presence of Alok Kumar on the scene: 1. Alok Kumar was not only the senior-most officer on the spot but the official head of the unit as well; and yet SI Dharmendra communicated with Inspector Sharma. Why? 2. Since he was personally supervising the raid, why did he allow Inspector Sharma to confront the perceived terrorists without having a bulletproof vest on? 3. If it was a mere recce why was he standing in full public view with a drawn gun in hand? 4. Where was he when there was exchange of fire allegedly on the fourth floor? 5. Did he follow Inspector Sharma and head constable Balwant Rana into the building? 6. Why didn’t he help his injured inspector or accompany him to the hospital? 7. Why has he not come forward to give a firsthand account of the entire incident? 8. The police initially rejoiced and proclaimed that the raid had been successful and the case had been worked out, and yet the name of Alok Kumar was nowhere mentioned. Why? Was he on a different kind of mission? Answers to these questions will go a long way in clearing the air of doubts and give credit where credit is due. It is not an insoluble mystery and viewed from a correct perspective things will fall into proper places and all the pieces of jigsaw will fit together to form a logical picture. But let the police decide this way or that. Was it a recce or a planned raid? From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 15:33:52 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:33:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Behind the Batla House shootout - Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810092117g19c2d818k4dd8d4b02138ce66@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810121144g618e9a96u97917388d1dfdbba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810150303s545018a3rca96d2c5e41aa165@mail.gmail.com> Javaed bhai, Thanks for your reply. I wholeheartedly welcome the first two lines of your e-mail. Not many on this forum have had the courage to call him a martyr of this nation. Anti-State Bashers are sleeping, I guess, and wake up only when their "Wonderland" stories are crisp and fine to present. However, The next part of your mail; really doesn't go too well. How have you come to the conclusion that Inspector Sharma's death is unclear and hazy. AIIMS doctors have submitted their report saying terrorists pumped bullets into him. Also, an expert would know that if it is fired from a very close range the bullet crosses one's body and leaves more wound and blood at the exit point. That is where this bull-shit theory of bullet being fired from back came in. These are all rumours spread by all those who don't want peace; many such people are in a great rush on this forum too. They love media publicity they get by speaking against the state and the police; even though they don't have any strong evidence to back their sick argument. - Why don't you question the terrorists at any moment of time ? - How do you think these terrorists managed to get AK-47's in Jamia Nagar ? Please read my last mail again. I've mentioned clearly that I don't want to defend any agency, any newspaper or other media; or even pseudo-scalars present here. I've my point; which I'm trying to make easy for you to understand. Why should I speak for anyone ? Rather you are doing it. Kindly introspect and then write. In regard to the example of my imprisonment; I was just making things easier for you and explaining the wide range in crime; to help you understand it in tits and bits. I was arrested with friends during an agitation recently in the New Delhi area; and was in a lock up for more than 24 hrs and even though there was strict discipline and we had to pass through law at every minute. Now, how could you expect a terrorist being given VIP treatment when an ordinary person with almost no serious crime even faced a tough law and for good ? Terrorists can't be given all freedom in Jails. They need to be taken to task; but whatever legal rights they are entitled to should be provided. And, if state comes in way, Court needs to intervene; that would be most unfortunate. This, however hasn't happened till now. Obviously, we can't compare this encounter with any such or other incident before. This was after a while that something of this nature happened in such a location in the capital. Surely, it had some larger strategy in mind. I don't understand how, why and from where and in which context do you blame Praveen Swami and India Today. Why would have Praveen Swami then written about it in the newspaper column and not a front page article ? Doesn't this tinkle in your mind anywhere ? If India Today did it, where was Aaj Tak and Headlines Today ? Blaming is the best and easiest you can do. In that case, even I can say that only channels like NDTV, CNN-IBN and a few more are more pseudo and are covering only your point of view. They lay emphasis on this false story that this encounter was fake. How would you justify this ? You are speaking more like any rival media group....lol Please don't get this intra-media war in here. As I said, crime journalists have sources in Police and even Home Ministry and elsewhere; that is where they get their store of information. Maybe, other journalists are not interested. That is their choice. Also, "The Hindu" is more of a leftist paper. That is more strange for you, for me. I think 'India Today' in the last year or more have been one of the only media groups to counter and expose the Government at the Centre from various corners. How can you come to such a strange conclusion then ? Isn't it just to immature on your part ? They did ask questions, and continue to. I'm not defending. My opinion. I reiterate, this mere anti-state propaganda by activists who are 'good at nothing' and trying to appease Musims; as elections are round the corner. I'm not at fault, if all TERRORISTS are MUSLIMS :-) They call it Jihad. Am I wrong ? Even I've nothing against you. So, kindly don't be the one to defend terrorists and speak on their behalf. As you said, Prashant Bhushan is there to handle that. Isn't it ? Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/13/08, Javed wrote: > > Dear Aditya ji > Yes we are all saddened by the death of Inspector Sharma. I think he > died a martyr's death - we should be proud of him. But it is still not > clear who killed him - terrorists or someone else. The autopsy report > has not been made public. The AIIMS doctors have said that the Holy > Family hospital mutilated the evidence from his body. > > On one hand you are asking me to go and ask Praveen Swami and India > Today myself. Then on the other hand you are answering on their > behalf. You don't have to apologetic about the system. The current > situation cannot be compared with all the previous situations, > including your own imprisonment, although you didn't specify what was > your crime. > > In this case, it is very clear that the authorities have selectively > invited India Today and Praveen Swami to get deep access to all their > secrets. When everyone is asking for transparency and a judicial > enquiry, and the govt categorically denies both, why do they become > transparent only to some journalists? It is not an ordinary case - its > a matter of national security. Are these journalists favoured because > they will not ask any questions, and write what it told to them. > Others are likely to question. > > This is not a matter of anti-state propaganda or Muslim appeasement. > When an entire community is being driven up the wall for harbouring > terrorism, peaceful people need to defend themselves. If the local > residents have not been given satisfactory answers to their questions, > they have the right to ask. Why are you answering on behalf of the > police - no one is questioning you. I have nothing against you. > > J > > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > Javed bhai, > > > > Aadab. The discussion was on the authenticity of the encounter; which as > > clearly visible is being deviated to post-encounter period now. So, I > > suppose we can only go ahead when all agree that Encounter was no doubt > > genuine and bravely fought by our martyr Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma. > > Thanks for your silent support :-) > > > > Now, coming to your queries there after. I consider Praveen Swami an > > excellent writer and intelligence expert of Terrorism and to some extent > > also on Kashmir. However, this does not mean, I'm there to defend him > every > > time. So, maybe you can direct these questions to him on his e-mail or > else > > to "The Hindu" newspaper; which was the lone newspaper to have the guts > to > > publish the truth so blunt apart from a few hindi dailies. > > > > Since, The terrorists who have been arrested from Jamia or elsewhere are > > lodged in a sensitive prison inside Asia's largest prison; you do have > some > > security concerns to address. At the same time, they are not VIP's on > some > > tour to the Jail, that your ANYONE can meet them ANYTIME. There are a few > > visits allowed per week to certain amount of people including lawyers and > > they need to take prior permission. If there were problems faced in > meeting > > them, its very unfortunate; and I think this is more so an administrative > > problem. > > > > Even I was arrested sometime back and lodged inside a Jail; even I wasn't > > permitted to a lawyer or to directly interact with relatives personally > for > > hours. This surely is a serious concern and needs to be addressed. Its a > > shame that Govt. doesn't take steps in this regard. > > > > Agreeing to the above, at the same time we can't take this out of bounds > to > > compare this with Human Rights, Biased Government and anti-state > rhetoric. > > Enough of that crap. Get above all this Drama now. > > > > Prashant Bhushan isn't the loan lawyer; just to fill you up with > > information. There a few more, though young and even they faced tough > time; > > but did manage to meet the terrorists lodged inside the Jail and take > > necessary signatures and details from them. > > > > If L-18 hasn't been open to media, then again its a sad story. But, I > think > > now there is less of Police force around the area and the people are back > to > > normal routine. Its unfortunate some elements tried to instigate communal > > tension in the area. Fortunately, nothing happened. > > > > The questions about India Today, can be best addressed to them. They were > > the one's to invite Terrorist Yasin Malik to the India Today Conclave a > few > > months back,Do I need say more ? > > > > Pravin Swami's information was based on whatever intelligence information > > Police shared with media from time to time. To add to this, obviously > senior > > Journalists and experts no doubt have sources in the Government, Police > etc. > > This isn't an old news. > > > > Faces of accused is covered for their benefit alone. Don't see a reason > why > > it bothers you ? > > > > These are simple excuses to just corner the state and the Police for just > no > > reason. Just to fan imaginary anti-Muslim wave, all this is being done. I > > made rest of the things amply clear in my last e-mail; please do go > through > > it. > > > > Journalism these days is all about biased editorials, bought news > articles > > and market. How do you expect a Terrorist Yasin Malik to get so much > > attention in media then ? Give me a break too Sir, most media groups are > > hell bent on proving this encounter as fake; which till now they have > failed > > to. How will they possibly hide the truth ? Brave M.C. Sharma did a > fabulous > > job. > > > > You have seen Amar Singh and others. Who is the next politician hunting > for > > votes ? > > > > This is all about Muslim Appeasement. On 14th Sept. Muslim clerics are > > meeting to disuss this sudden so called Muslim terrorising thing. > > > > Note: The PM himself has said no to probe. What more can you do ? > Arundhati > > Roy may pose for shutter bugs by visiting her friends in Jamia; but that > > won't help. It just exposes their corrupt mindset and divisive policies. > > Instigating Muslims is what they can do most, only to widen the gap. How > > will this result in PEACE ? > > > > Wake Up !!!! > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > > > On 10/12/08, Javed wrote: > >> > >> Dear Aditya > >> I would simply like to ask you one question (since you consider > >> Praveen Swamy as a great journalist and renowned expert of security > >> and all): > >> > >> The police is not allowing any one (and I mean ANYONE) to meet the > >> accused boys arrested from Batla House - they did not allow the > >> lawyer, nor the relatives of the accused until the Delhi high court > >> gave a judgment that they should be allowed to meet for one hour. Then > >> the relatives and the lawyer Prashant Bhushan could meet only once for > >> a few minutes. The police also did not allow any journalist or TV crew > >> to enter the L-18 flat until now. In such a situation, how can > >> somebody like Praveen Swamy (or Mihir Srivastava of India Today, who > >> promptly took a cover-story interview) have such a deep access to the > >> secrets of Special Cell? Did they find all this out by some > >> sting-operation? Or are they above law? Or are they the mouthpieces of > >> the Police? Or are they copywriting all these stories and feeding to > >> the state? > >> > >> The 3 accused were presented to the media with their faces hidden in > >> Arab scarves. They were presented to the court (for extension of > >> remand) with muffled faces. But their faces were exhibited openly for > >> INDIA TODAY cover story! Wow, is this country being run by Prabhu > >> Chawla? > >> > >> Give us a break Mr. Praveen Swami and Prabhu Chawla. Or at least show > >> us the "Mind of the Terror" from Orissa and Bangalore too, if you are > >> the upholders of unbiased journalism. > >> > >> > >> J > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > >> > An interesting piece by one of the most renowned expert on internal > >> security > >> > and terrorism, Praveen Swami. It highlights the major areas which have > >> been > >> > missed by those campaigning hard to convert this encounter or at least > >> > portray it as fake one. Hope they plan a better theory or else revise > >> their > >> > 'Wonderland' stories. Have a look at 'The Hindu' column below which > came > >> out > >> > in today's newspaper. > >> > > >> > Love > >> > Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > *Behind the Batla House shootout > >> > * Praveen Swami * > >> > > >> > Charges that the Jamia Nagar encounter was fake belong in the > Wonderland. > >> > > >> > * > >> > > >> > "Sometimes," said the Queen in Lewis Carroll's *Alice in Wonderland*, > >> "I've > >> > believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." > >> > > >> > Ever since last month's encounter in New Delhi's Jamia Nagar, critics > >> have > >> > been claiming that the two men killed by the police were innocent > >> students, > >> > not Indian Mujahideen terrorists. A number of well-meaning > commentators > >> and > >> > politicians have expressed concern over the encounter. Few seem to > have > >> > paused to wonder if there was, in fact, anything mysterious about the > >> > shootout. If it was indeed fake, the story would read something like > >> this: > >> > Hoping to redeem their anti-terrorism credentials and whip up > anti-Muslim > >> > paranoia, the Delhi police shot dead two innocent Muslims. For some > >> reason, > >> > though, they left a third innocent Muslim, Mohammad Saif, alive to > tell > >> the > >> > tale. Either because of incompetence or to get rid of an inconvenient > >> honest > >> > officer, depending on who is telling the story — the Delhi police also > >> > killed one of their own. They also shot another officer, but let him > >> live. > >> > > >> > A riveting fiction? The truth about Batla House is, in comparison, > >> mundane. > >> > > >> > When inspector Mohan Chand Sharma walked through the door of the flat > >> where > >> > he was to die, all he knew was that he was looking for a man with two > >> > missing front teeth. Soon after the Gujarat bombings, a Bharuch > resident > >> > contacted the police to report that the vehicles used as car bombs in > >> > Ahmedabad had been parked by his tenant. Gujarat Crime Branch Deputy > >> > Commissioner Abhay Chudasma had little to go on, bar one small clue: > the > >> > mobile phone used by the tenant to communicate with the landlord. It > >> turned > >> > out that the phone went silent after the Ahmedabad bombings. > >> > > >> > Based on the interrogation of suspects, Gujarat police investigators > >> > determined that the cell phone was one of the five used by the > >> perpetrators > >> > between July 7 and 26 — the day of the serial bombings. They learned > that > >> > the perpetrators had observed rigorous communication security > procedures, > >> > calling these numbers only from public telephones. Between July 16 and > >> July > >> > 22, the investigators learned, another of the five Gujarat phones had > >> been > >> > used in the Jamia Nagar area. This phone had received just five calls, > >> all > >> > from public phones at Jamia Nagar. Then, on July 24, the phone became > >> active > >> > again in Ahmedabad. > >> > > >> > The investigators also found evidence of a second link between the > >> Ahmedabad > >> > bombings and the Jamia Nagar area. On July 19, the Bharuch cell phone > >> > received a call from Mumbai, made from an eastern Uttar Pradesh number > — > >> the > >> > sole break in the communication-security procedure. Immediately after > >> this, > >> > a call was made from the eastern U.P. phone to a number at Jamia > Nagar, > >> > registered to local resident Mohammad Atif Amin. The authorities > mounted > >> a > >> > discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the > hope > >> that > >> > he would again be contacted by the perpetrators. > >> > > >> > Mumbai police crime branch chief Rakesh Maria made the next > breakthrough > >> > last month, when his investigators held Afzal Usmani, a long-standing > >> > lieutenant of ganglord-turned-jihadist Riyaz Bhatkal. From Usmani, the > >> > investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault > squad > >> left > >> > Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar. Armed with this > >> > information, the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either > >> > provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person. > >> Inspector > >> > Sharma was asked to settle the issue. > >> > 'Vodaphone salesman' > >> > > >> > Sub-inspector Dharmindar Kumar was given the unhappy task of trudging > up > >> the > >> > stairs in the sweltering heat, searching for Bashir. Dressed in a tie > and > >> > shirt, just like other members of Sharma's team, Kumar pretended to be > a > >> > salesman for Vodaphone. At the door of Amin's flat, he heard noises — > and > >> > called his boss. > >> > > >> > According to head constable Balwant Rana, who was by Sharma's side, > the > >> two > >> > men knocked on the front door, identifying themselves as police > officers. > >> > There was no response. Then, the officers walked down an 'L' shaped > >> corridor > >> > which led to a second door. This door was unlocked. Sharma and Rana, > as > >> they > >> > entered, were fired upon from the front of and to the right of the > door. > >> > When the rest of the special team, armed only with small arms, went in > to > >> > support Sharma and Rana, two terrorists ran out through the > now-unguarded > >> > front door. Saif wisely locked himself up in a toilet. > >> > > >> > It takes little to see that Sharma's team made several tactical > errors. > >> > However, as anyone who has actually faced hostile fire will testify, > >> combat > >> > tends not to be orderly. In the United States or Europe, a Batla > >> House-style > >> > operation would have been carried out by a highly trained assault unit > >> > equipped with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment. Given their > >> resources > >> > and training, Sharma and his men did as well as could be expected. > >> > > >> > Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy > Family > >> > Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India > >> > Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two > >> > directions. One bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through > >> the > >> > left upper arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting > >> through > >> > the hip. The investigators believe that the abdomen wound was > inflicted > >> with > >> > Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid. > >> > > >> > Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's > >> shirt > >> > was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he > was > >> > shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from > >> > firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop > >> > films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet > having > >> > ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, > >> too, > >> > is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back. > >> > > >> > In some sense, the allegations levelled over the encounter tell us > more > >> > about the critics than the event itself. In part, the allegations have > >> been > >> > driven by poor reporting and confusion — the product, more often than > >> not, > >> > by journalists who have not followed the Indian Mujahideen story. More > >> > important, though, the controversy was driven by the Muslim religious > >> > right-wing whose myth-making, as politician Arif Mohammad Khan > recently > >> > pointed out, has passed largely unchallenged. > >> > > >> > In a recent article, the University of Delaware's Director of Islamic > >> > Studies, Muqtedar Khan, lashed out at the "intellectually dishonest" > >> > representatives of Muslims who "live in denial." "They first deny that > >> there > >> > is such a thing as jihadi terrorism," Dr. Khan noted, "resorting to > >> > conspiracy theories blaming every act of jihadi violence either on > >> Israel, > >> > the U.S. or India. Then they argue that unjust wars by these three > >> nations > >> > [in Palestine, Iraq and Kashmir] are the primary cause for jihadi > >> violence; > >> > a phenomenon whose very existence they have already denied." > >> > > >> > It is easy to rip apart the pseudo-facts that drove the claim that the > >> Jamia > >> > Nagar encounter was fake — or that the Indian Mujahideen is a fiction. > >> Much > >> > political work, though, is needed to drain the swamps of denial and > >> deceit > >> > in which the lies have bred. > >> > > >> > *Link - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm > >> > >> > * > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 16:10:10 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:10:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arab Science and Renaissance Art: by Hans Belting at IGNCA In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810141105k19c9558ev8d792f6744ed6796@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810141105k19c9558ev8d792f6744ed6796@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810150340g441fd212p2fc044e75898f539@mail.gmail.com> presentation by Hans Belting at INGCA on 14th Oct. Arab Science and Renaissance Art. A cross cultural History of Gaze. for those who were not there: Mr. Belting ended his presentation almost like this : In Islamic culture ( the other ) the image has to be inside the book. The image on its own will attain an iconic status which will eventually omit out the details that manifested it in the first place. The image in Islamic art is not outside but something which happens though a thorough understanding of light, both through its reflected and refracted phenomenon. His presentation was quite methodical, I guess precisely because of his acute sense of role played by science in the making of art. That science which was part of Arab culture during ottoman umpire and beyond. He elegantly dismissed what we casually call 'decorative in Islamic Art' This so called decorative pattern had in fact happened because of some acute understanding of science of Geometry in Arab world. The hero of his presentation was Alhazen ( born 950 AD, basra ) http://home.att.net/~mleary/alhazen.htm . He said that the change from Alhazen's work on PERESPECTIVE to OPTICS was like changing it from Latin ton Greek, which immensely distorted his original work based on scientific research. It is not his subject to enter the ways of Sufi dealing with Light, and simultaneously added that it is quite boring to hear only about Quran and Mohammad ( prophet ) when we talk about Islamic world. He also pointed out that even those are doing research on Islamic art need to look into this segment of Alhazen's scientific understanding of perspective and light, without which it is bound to become decorative only, or something else. One of his titles is THE INVISIBLE MASTER PIECE, THE MYTH OF MODERN ART, which he talked about what the other is all about. The culture of the other, becomes invisible because of this western gaze. Here he mentioned himself as the westerner, who is at the same time looking at what is west and what is this other. At that time, of course I thought of Edward Said's Orientalism. http://www.nature.com/eye/journal/v18/n11/fig_tab/6701578f2.html just this slide from his presentation was simply breath taking. He talked about ' gireya ( knots ) which are created by the light passing though various parts of body after going though myriad reflections and refraction in cosmos, So there is no single perspective to understand what is visible. The symbolism, therefore, was radically different from Renaissance in this respect at least. http://longstreet.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/17/blogoptics040.jpg If you know more about this hero Alhazen, please share Love is -- -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 15 16:35:00 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:35:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: References: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Lalit, Actually, Subhash Chandra Bose, didn't have any problems being called a Fascist. So you don't have to get your knickers in a twist if anyone should choose to call him one. And nor should we have any hesitation in calling him a Fascist. A Fascist is, well, a Fascist. Bose's book, 'The Indian Struggle' which he wrote in Vienna while courting Austrian Fascists in the 1930s actually calls for a synthesis of Fascism and the kind of state being developed in Stalin's Russia. He also courted Mussolini (not very successfully) the most important Italian Fascist politician, in the same period. This is way before the well known alliance with Hitler and Tojo, which most Indian nationalists sort of turn a blind eye to while performing their genuflections to the obscenity of war-time realpolitik. As early as 1930 -- in his inaugural speech as mayor of Calcutta -- Bose first expressed his support for a fusion of socialism and fascism. This is not long after the time when he personally led a lathi charge against a procession of agitating Industrial Workers in Calcutta, who were peacefully asking for the Congress leadership, including Bose, who they thought (mistakenly) would be sympathetic to their demands, to pay some attention to their plight. In doing this, Bose played the role of the Fascist Storm Trooper leader to the hilt, dressed in a quasi military uniform, leading a band of armed thugs on a violent rampage against a peaceful assembly of workers. But it wasn't just the 'fancy-dress' aspects of Fascism that attracted Bose. Let us pay attention to his own words. “... I would say we have here in this policy and program a synthesis of what modern Europe calls Socialism and Fascism. We have here the justice, the equality, the love, which is the basis of Socialism, and combined with that we have the efficiency and the discipline of Fascism as it stands in Europe today.” ( From Bose's inaugural speech of Sept. 24, 1930. Quoted in: Leonard A. Gordon, Brothers Against the Raj: A Biography of Indian Nationalists Sarat and Subhas Chandra Bose (New York: 1990), p. 234.) For example, in late 1944 -- almost a decade-and-a-half later -- in a speech to students at Tokyo University, he asserted that India must have a political system "of an authoritarian character. . . To repeat once again, our philosophy should be a synthesis between National Socialism and Communism." (Speech of November 22, 1944, in S.C. Bose, Fundamental Questions of Indian Revolution (Calcutta: Netaji Research Bureau, 1970), pp. 403-4.) His detailed comments on Fascism in his book The Indian Struggle: 1920-1934, which was first published in 1935, accurately represent the views he held throughout most of his career. This is what he says, for instance about 'Democracy and Freedom' “ It (the future Indian political order) will not stand for a democracy in the Mid-Victorian sense of the term, but will believe in government by a strong party bound together by military discipline, as the only means of holding India together and preventing a chaos, when Indians are free and are thrown entirely on their own resources." Here he is again, on 'Fascism' “One is inclined to hold that the next phase in world- history will produce a synthesis between Communism and Fascism. And will it be a surprise if that synthesis in produced in India?... In spite of the antithesis between Communism and Fascism, there are certain traits in common. Both Communism and Fascism believe in the supremacy of the State over the individual. Both denounce parliamentary democracy. Both believe in party rule. Both believe in the dictatorship of the party and in the ruthless suppression of all dissenting minorities. Both believe in a planned industrial reorganization of the country. These common traits will form the basis of the new synthesis. That synthesis is called by the writer "Samyavada" -- an Indian word, which means literally "the doctrine of synthesis or equality." It will be India's task to work out this synthesis.” Subsequently, in an interview to the British Indian communist journalist, Rajani Palme Dutt, Bose muted his enthusiasm for Fascism somewhat, while not abandoning it altogether, but came back with fulsome endorsements of Fascism as is evident in his speeches and declarations made in Germany and Japan. Bose's was not a the 'fascism of an opportunist'. Rather his occasional 'anti-fascism' was certainly opportunist and totally in keeping with the Machieavellian political personality that he assiduously cultivated for himself. All of this is rather well documented. And all you need to do is to go to any decent research library and look up a few books and documents (the ones I have cited will suffice) to know exactly what Bose thought of Fascism and when he said what he said. I think the fact that Bose either died, or did not choose to appear, or could not choose to appear and stake his claim at the political sweepstakes in India after the transfer of power in 1947 is probably the greatest stroke of good fortune to have befallen the people of this country. I do not suffer from any nostalgia for the Nehruvian epoch. But the banal mediocrity of the Nehru years, in my opinion, are a far cry from the disaster that a combination of Bose and Patel would have meant for India. Bose's dreams for India were a brutal and authoritarian dictatorship, suitably 'Indianized' by a high dose of Vedantic Messianism and somewhat coloured by radical sounding slogans. (In welding this nightmare together, Bose inspired by what he had seen or knew of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan). I am sure that this would have landed us in a far greater mess than we are in already. As always, I would have been happier if our uber-patriotic list members done a little more homework before embarassing themselves and all of us, yet again. best, Shuddha On 15-Oct-08, at 12:12 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > . > > Netaji Subash Chandra Bose- the hero of the nation had met Hitler & > had sought his help in the freedom struggle against the British > colonialism. Is he too sought to be declared a fascist? > From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 17:04:46 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:04:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Nagar Jan Sunwai Message-ID: <564b2fca0810150434q5e944f3m9cd14ad9fa662218@mail.gmail.com> This would interest folks on this list. Naga Verdict of the Jan Sunwai Jury Academics and activists seek Judicial probe into the 19th September encounter by a sitting Supreme Court judge; Demand that investigations be handed over to the Central Bureau of Investigations A Jan Sunwai on the Batla House 'Encounter' was organized by the Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group outside Khalilullah Masjid in Jamia Nagar on 12th October (Sunday). The following scholars and activists associated with civil rights movement constituted the jury: Swami Agnivesh, Member, National Integration Council John Dayal, Member, National Integration Council Tanika Sarkar, Professor of History, JNU Tripta Wahi, Rtd. Professor of History, Delhi University Vijay Singh, Professor of History, Delhi University Nirmalangshu Mukherji, Professor of Philosophy, Delhi University Harsh Mandar, Social Activist The need to hold a Public Hearing in the neighbourhood became imperative to counter the increasing communalization of public discourse in relation to the issue of terrorism and its association with the Muslim community. The on-going targeting of the community by the media and the different institutions of the State as well as political parties has increased the sense of alienation and fear. To overcome this situation and to extend solidarity to the community residing in the Jamia Nagar area particularly by members of the liberal, secular, democratic intelligentsia belonging to different communities created a space of dialogue. This act of solidarity was welcomed by the people who attended in thousands to be part of the deliberations. After hearing over a dozen testimonies given by local residents, the jury observed the following. A) The people of Jamia Nagar participated overwhelmingly in the Jan Sunwai. The predominant sentiment among the local residents about the 'encounter' is one of anger and disbelief. This feeling was articulated by the participants and those who gave testimony. Local residents have taken strong exception to the stereotyping of young Muslim educated youth in this area and also in general as terrorists. The links that the media and the state is making between education, especially professional technical education among the Muslim youth and terrorism has fueled fears that it will inhibit the progress and social advancement of the community. B) It is noted that prior to moving to L-18, the deceased had verifications proofs in place with the local police. Sajid had appeared for his 11th class examination at Jamia School and all address details were genuine. Atif had enrolled in Jamia Millia islamia. Till date, all identification records submitted by them have been found to be true. The verification details for obtaining their mobile connections are also genuine. These proofs establish the credibility of the boys killed in the encounter as students seeking opportunities and a career in the city. C) The statement by people who bathed the bodies of the dead boys before their burial was striking: they testified that the skin on Atif's back was sloughed off; there were multiple bullet injuries on Sajid's head. These cast aspersions on the police version. D) On the nature of firing, all residents uniformly testified that the firing happened in quick succession punctuated by short intervals for nearly an hour after Inspector Sharma was brought down. The members of the locality raised questions about the long duration of firing in L-18. The death of Inspector Sharma too is shrouded in mystery. E) The witnesses also expressed their anguish about the way in which the police kept the community on tenterhooks about the burial of the bodies. The handing over of the bodies was delayed and the entire process was marked by complete lack of sensitivity in relation to the dead. The Jury feels that minimum human sensibilities must be respected regardless of the charges against the dead. The jury strongly feels that there is ample ground to doubt the veracity of the police version of the sequence of events on 19th September. Following these observations in the jan sunwai, the Jury demands: A) Judicial probe into the 19th September encounter by a sitting Supreme Court judge B) The investigations must be handed over to the Central Bureau of Investigations. The jury is of the view that the on-going targeting of the Muslim minority in the country has created an atmosphere of fear and anxiety. The complete disregard and violation of fundamental civil rights in the process of the State's efforts to control 'terrorist' activities has raised questions regarding the secular character of the Indian democracy and the impartiality of its institutions. The widespread sense of alienation among the minorities can only be mitigated by ensuring justice. Released by the Jamia teachers' Solidarity Group From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 17:07:54 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <208641.74105.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Lalit   I did not see any 'Hindu bashing' in the article "Understanding Hindutva" by Averthanus L. D'Souza.   I thought he made some unwarranted generalisations at a few places and made a few  superficial comments but there was no 'Hindu bashing'.   Lalit, I happen to be a Kashmiri Pandit and I am quite connected with that identity. Because of that I get to be seen as a Hindu too. I consider that unfortunate but I have no choice in that.   Explaining 'unfortunate', in general I have a lot of contempt for very many of the rituals, precepts that are recognised as being Hindu but are far removed from the Heritage of Dharmic Treatises with which these degraded practices and thoughts get indistiguishably linked because of the Hindu tag.   My 'spiritual food' is provided by "Dharma" but my recorded religion is Hinduism.   I have deep concerns about many acts and propagations in the name of Hinduism and Hindus with which I too get linked because of my being a Hindu on the records. I am allowed those concerns, am I not?   My ultimate societal identity is of an Indian. It is my primary identity. All my other identities or identifications are secondary in nature because their existence and/or practice is possible only under the enabling environment (Constitution) that ensures and testifies to my primary identity of being an Indian.   Any word or act  that directly or indirectly threatens to disintegrate India which is the enabler of my primary identity will be seen by me with deep concern. It does not matter what the rationale, justification or philosophy or ideology might be used in support of any such act or word. It does not matter whether it is "Hindu" or "Islamic" or "Christian" etc or "Atheist" or "Agnostic" or "Marxist" or "Capitalist" etc.    I thought the article made some excellent points and at very many places faithfully articulated my own thoughts/feelings/concerns.   - Is there a concept of Hindutva that is sought to be put into practice? Yes there is.   - Do all "Hindus" subscribe to this concept of Hindutva? No they do not.   - Is an attack on "Hindutva" therefore an attack on Hindus or on Hinduism? No it is not.   The article has covered the elemental beliefs of the Hindutva philosophy. I see that you have not contested those as being incorrect.   Propagation and/or microcosmic practice of Hindutva will create nothing but turmoil and strife in India. Hindutva therefore becomes the enemy of India and my enemy. There is no difference between it and the vision of a Pan-Islamic World that you yourself often speak against. How can you condemn one and not the other?   Hindutva translated into reality will mean the disintegration of India. Hindutva therefore becomes the enemy of India and my enemy. How can it be acceptable to me as an Indian? It is not.   Hindutva is not acceptable to me as a "Hindu" or a Kashmiri Pandit either.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 10/15/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: From: Lalit Ambardar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva To: "Rohan DSouza" , reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 12:12 AM Nothing new - routine Hindu bashing on this forum. Doesn't deserve any response. But still a few observations to help you guys to know your nation better. Netaji Subash Chandra Bose- the hero of the nation had met Hitler & had sought his help in the freedom struggle against the British colonialism. Is he too sought to be declared a fascist? Following sentences in the article itself contradict the very claim in the article that tribals aren't Hindus: In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism> is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular> practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna> tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through> that very path." And this is precisely why Hindus are traditionally secular. Why is it that faith of innocents is being sought in exchange for so called charity? Who dedicated this century to 'one' particular 'faith' in Asia ? It is preposterous to attribute motives to Swami Vivekananda's famous visit to the USA. Hindus have welcome all persecuted communities from world over. It is only in india that Jews never faced any persecution. India is not secular just because the secularism is enshrined in the constitution of India- it is because Hindus are secular & they constitute a majority in this country. Name the country that practices secularism that prevails here . Remember what the Australian PM advised his Muslim subjects recently. It is ironic that it is the very Hindu who is being now taught the lessons on secularism. Who sought the two nation theory based partition of India? Why are you self proclaimed secularists silent over the 'ethnic cleansing' of a minority Hindu Pandit community in Kashmir by those kalashnikov wielding pan Islamists who are seeking 'azadi bara e islam'( freedom through Islam) in kashmir? You know what that former PM was doing when Hindu Pandits were being butchered in the streets of Kashmir- he was having 'laddos' with that known part politician Imam , celebrating his win. Instead of digging in to the history of 'yours' ( that earlier said Ram did not exist & now claims Ram only ordered sethu demolishing), why don't we stick to the idea of India that remained after its vivisection ( Muslims demanded & they were granted land in 1947), that vowed inspite of provocations, to continue to adhere to the Hindu tradition of secularism . Is Shyama Prasad Mukherjee a fascist just because he opposed the then prevailing system of entry in to the state of J&K through permit/visa? It is not to justify any kind of violence. Stop being myopic .This nation belongs to all its citizens. Let us build it on its own traditions. Regards all LA > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:42:13 +0530> From: virtuallyme at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > Dear All,> > Am forwarding an interesting article which explores the concept of Hindutva> and tries to point out the differences between it and Hinduism. The author> puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a political project, grounded in> the principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating and maintaining> an authoritarian state, with suppressive control over human beings.> > He also brings out the difference between the inclusive, open approach of> Hinduism and the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva.> > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there have been many> discussions around similar issues.> > Regards,> Rohan> ________________________________________________________________________> ________________________________________________________________________> UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L. D'Souza.> Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, Ahmedabad" sjprashant at gmail.com> Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT))> > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA> - Averthanus L. D'Souza.> > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a former Secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad> (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus are the Muslims, the> Christians, the Hindu intellectuals and the media." It is very significant> as well as intriguing that Vispute included the Hindu intellectuals and the> media in his category of the "enemies" of Hindus. It does not take great> intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this statement by a very> prominent Hindutva promoter. It is quite obvious that Hindu intellectuals> (nor any other reasonably educated person for that matter) will refuse to> swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by the Hindutva> propagandists to arouse anger and hatred against Muslims and Christians,> for which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person (including Hindu> "intellectuals") will see through the falsity of the arguments which the VHP> advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely because the position of the> Hindutva campaign is irrational and untenable that the propagandists prefer> to recruit uneducated and unthinking followers who can easily be manipulated> to believe anything that is fed to them. The Bajrang Dal, which is> considered to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of the VHP is a good> example of uneducated youth, with more passion than reason, who are willing> to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are conditioned to> believe that heroism consists in slaughtering helpless women and children,> and burning innocent people alive. In this respect the Bajrang Dal is no> different from the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the youth brigades of the> other fascist movements in Europe who were used to terrorize the population> into submission. With their saffron head-bands and wielding 'trishuls',> and screaming full-throated war-cries, these rampaging gangs can cause> terror anywhere - which is precisely what they are trained to do. They are> 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of the morality of the orders or> the consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent RSS leader,> personally met the Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini in Rome on 19> March, 1931, visited some important military schools and educational> institutions and became acquainted with the Balilla and the Avanguardisti> organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the keystone of the fascist> system is the 'indoctrination' of youths, rather than education. This is> the foundation on which the Bajrang Dal is built.> > While cultivated ignorance of the youth is one facet which is promoted by> the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate falsification of current facts as well> as of History is another method of indoctrination used. Lal .Krishna.> Advani closely studied the system of propaganda developed by Nazi Germany.> He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action developed two other> distinctive characteristics: firstly, adoption of propaganda as a key> instrument of State policy; and secondly, the systematic development of a> demonology to keep the masses in a mood of perpetual tension and hysteria."> (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's Scrap Book" ) Advani and his colleagues have> tried hard to refine and improve upon the propaganda-cum-terror machinery> which was developed by Nazi Germany, specially by Hitler's most trusted> lieutenant Paul Joseph Goebbels, whose name has now become synonymous with> high-voltage mendacious propaganda.> > One of the more prominent falsifications which the Hindutva protagonists are> propagating is that Hindutva is an integral part of Hinduism. No sensible> person, (including thinking Hindus) accepts this claim. In fact, the vast> majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of Hinduism with> Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly respected religion of long standing. It> is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one of the oldest> religions in human history. It outlived the ancient religions of the> Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and the Egyptians.> Hinduism has always been associated with 'sanatana' which denotes> timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has never been associated with any> particular political system; nor has it ever shown a preference for any> particular cultural context. In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism> is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular> practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna> tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through> that very path."> > In sharp contrast to Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is a clearly> distinguishable "political" ideology which is straining to concoct a> "national" identity based on the Hindu religion. Hindutva is a clearly> fascist political movement, which has drawn much of its inspiration from> European fascism and German Nazism. The most prominent protagonists of> Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav Sadashiv> Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama Prasad Mukherjee (1901 - 1953) among> others, have derived their ideologies from European fascism and modified it> to suit Indian conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the "International> General Secretary" of the VHP explicitly says that India is a Hindu Rashtra> since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a religion but a synonym for Hindu> nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that the rejection of> the claims of Hindutva cannot be construed as being anti-Hinduism. In> fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of Hinduism by the Hindutva> brigade that the Hindu intellectuals have rejected it. The Hindutva> fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between Hindutva and Hinduism.> They have been able to increase their popularity because they repeat the> (false) propaganda that the promotion of Hindutva is the promotion of> Hinduism> > There are many distortions which the Hindutva fascists have wrought on> Hinduism. Suffice it to indicate only a few blatant contradictions in> their propaganda.> > One: Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu "Rashtra". The> secularism enshrined in the Indian Constitution is violently rejected by the> Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they have made a conscious and> vigorous effort to create an "international" Hindu community. The> formation of the "World Hindu Council" and the creation of the post of an> "International General Secretary" of the VHP is a clear contradiction of the> claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of creating a Hindu> "nation." This contradiction is obvious to every sane person, except, of> course, the rabid Hindutva ideologues.> > The claim made by Pravin Togadia that Hindutva as a "Rashtra" has existed> since millennia is patently false. By all historical accounts, whether in> ancient or mediaeval India, there were several "kingdoms" or "empires."> Among the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan empire of> Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 B.C. to 184 B.C.) and the Asokan empire> (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other lesser kingdoms like> those of Kushana. In the south there were the numerous kingdoms of> Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan dynasty and the> Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to 1567 A.D.) and the better known Maratha> Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the course of history, all> these kingdoms were in conflict with one or another with a view to expand> their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had been taken away by force.> There was never a "nation" called India. Even after the gaining of> political independence from Britain in 1947, it was left to Sardar> Vallabhbhai Patel to consolidate the various major and minor kingdoms into a> unified Nation. It is indisputable that it was under Pandit Jawaharlal> Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called "Princely States" were> abolished and integrated into the State of India, which, for the first time> in its entire history adopted a Constitution which was to govern the> "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim that India was always a Hindu> "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it is still seeking to "create"> the Hindu Rashtra of its dream.> > Two: the VHP claims that people who profess and practice other religions> cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This is in stark contradiction to the> repeated statements made by the Hindutva leaders that Hindutva is a> "secular" concept. In fact, they claim that they are secular precisely> because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being "pseudo-secular."> They continue to trumpet this obvious contradiction that only Hindus are> secular and the followers of all other religions are not secular. Yet,> they also claim that Hindutva is a "composite" culture which embraces a> variety of religions, cults, languages and ethnic cultures. The Hindutva> ideologues have never been able to reconcile this glaring contradiction in> their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other ethnic cultures, why is it> that they are systematically forcing tribals (who are not, and never have> been, Hindu) to "convert" to Hinduism? On the one hand they have> sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion" legislation in many States;> because they are ostensibly opposed to conversions by force, fraud or> inducements; yet on the other hand, they themselves are forcibly> "converting" tribals, members of scheduled castes and followers of other> religions. They offer the lame and unconvincing argument that they are only> bringing back these people to the Hindu fold. They have called this> movement a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the tribals have never been> Hindu. They have their own culture, religion and social practices. "Ghar> vapasi" in their case simply does not make any sense. Former Indian Prime> Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that "ultimately what they are> aiming at is authoritarian rule. Then not only will the minorities be> targeted, but also those who do not agree with them. You will be declared an> anti-national and treated thus."> > One of the more prominent characteristics of any dictatorial political> movement is the systematic creation of confusion in the minds of the> citizens so that they can never be sure of what the truth is. This is done> in two ways. One is to spread rumours through the cadres of grassroots> level workers, and another is to simultaneously issue "official" statements> "clarifying" the official position on any particular issue. This is a very> subtle psychological game which is being played by the top leadership of the> Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and not fall into the> trap which is deliberately created by the Hindutva ideologues. A glaringly> example of this "double-speak" is the fact that the Bajrang Dal leaders in> Karnataka have openly stated on TV channels that they are responsible for> the attacks against Christian churches, institutions and personnel. At the> same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the VHP leadership insist> that the Bajrang Dal had nothing to do with the attacks.> > There are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal of the Sangh> Parivar to be treated at length in a brief essay, but this short analysis> will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions:> > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu Solidarity.> > The entire Hindutva movement is grounded on the principle that India is a> Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights of citizenship in India.> In this view, Muslims and Christians, in particular, but also Jews,> Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as non-Indian. Each time a violent> attack is carried out against Muslims or Christians, the Bajrang Dal> terrorists shout that the Muslims and Christians should either become Hindus> or leave the country. Islam and Christianity are considered to be> "impositions" by foreign Muslim conquerors or by Western Christian> missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S. Golwalkar are very> explicit about this. According to them, non-Hindus cannot enjoy rights of> citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned that their continued> presence in India is entirely dependent on the "goodwill" of the Hindus and> the Christians are "advised" to form an Indian Church under the complete> control of the Indian Government, similar to the National Church in China.> The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only those who sever> their links with any international community and become entirely Hindu will> be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India.> > The stark contradiction in this position is the fact that Hindutva is Not> confined to the geographical territory of India; it is sought to be made an> international religion. Ever since the famous Parliament of Religions was> addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the "missionary" dimension of> Hinduism was begun with the formation of the Vedanta Society in 1893 in New> York. Today there are Hindu "missions" all over the world, in the U.S.A.,> in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the West Indies, and in South Africa.> The claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a Hindu "Rashtra," is,> therefore, patently false. The comparison with the expansionist movement> of Nazi Germany is too striking to be missed. First it started with the> unification of German speaking countries; then it was extended to include> all people of Aryan ethnic stock. Since racial characteristics could not be> "assimilated" the Nazis began a systematic extermination, first of the> Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. The Hindutva claim to> form a Hindu Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud perpetrated by the> Hindutva ideologues. From a close examination of the literature available,> it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to establish a theocratic Hindu> State in India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of neighbouring> Pakistan.> > Tolerance v/s xenophobia.> > Another myth which has been created by the Hindutva protagonists is the> claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and is based on secular values.> This is far from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly intolerant movement> which thrives on spreading hatred and fear among people. In fact it is so> intolerant that it seeks to re-write history, which, according to it, has> been written by "pseudo-secularists." Its distortion of history is so> blatant that it has even created the myth that Asoka and Chandragupta> Maurya were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification of History. All> reliable sources tell us that Asoka ruled over a Buddhist kingdom, and that> Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the Jaina tradition. The> Hindutva view of history is not based on scientific research, but on an> imagination running wild. The Hindutva "historians" are worthy disciples> of Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and over again, people> will soon begin to accept it as the truth.> > If Hindutva is a tolerant political ideology which respects secular values,> why is it that in all the States which are ruled by the BJP there is a> systematic attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is it that tribals,> who are not, and never have been, Hindu are being terrorized into converting> to Hinduism?> > The Hindutva fanatics claim that they are against conversion by force, fraud> or by material inducements. In fact they accuse the Christians of having> converted Hindus by offering such material inducements. Yet, the duplicity> of their claims is starkly evident in the fact that wherever they have> attacked the Christians, independent Commissions of Enquiry have not been> able to confirm a single case of conversion by the use of fraud, force or> material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear about such> conversions. If the Hindutva terrorists have any evidence of such> conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. Instead, they resort to> violence and terror against helpless, innocent and weak communities. They> themselves use force to (re)convert people.> > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations of falsehood, force and> terror. In times of natural calamities, like the earthquake in Gujarat,> they prevented anyone else from assisting the affected people. They sought> exclusive rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this aid in a highly> reprehensible manner. Muslim victims were carefully and deliberately> excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that they swore to> remain or to become Hindu. There is voluminous evidence of such> discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And these very people> claim that Hindutva is a humanitarian and generous movement.> > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the Hindutva movement. They> should examine all their claims critically; and most of all, citizens> should not be beguiled into believing that the Hindutva movement has any> redeeming features. It is an unmitigated evil.> > The battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all faiths, varieties of> cultures and languages, are facing a grave threat to the secular,> democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We need to join> forces to defeat the evil forces of fascism and authoritarianism. The> fight is not between Hinduism and other religions. The fight is really> between secularism and democracy, on the one hand, and fascism on the other.> > Averthanus L. D'Souza,> D-13, La Marvel Colony,> Dona Paula, Goa 403 004.> Tel: 2453628> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 15 17:15:05 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:15:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KHAIRLANJI: book launch on 16 October Message-ID: <9c06aab30810150445g3bd37003u20a01b1eaf738192@mail.gmail.com> Navayana invites you to the launch of Khairlanji: A Strange and Bitter Crop Anand Teltumbde with a panel discussion featuring Rajendra Yadav Sukhadeo Thorat Arundhati Roy Harsh Mander Nivedita Menon & Anand Teltumbde Khairlanji A Strange and Bitter Crop By Anand Teltumbde Demy Octavo, 215 pages, Rs 190 ISBN: 978-81-89059-15-6 "Anand Teltumbde's analysis of the public, ritualistic massacre of a dalit family in 21st century India exposes the gangrenous heart of our society. It contextualizes the massacre and describes the manner in which the social, political and state machinery, the police, the mass media and the judiciary all collude to first create the climate for such bestiality, and then cover it up. This is not a book about the last days of relic feudalism, but a book about what modernity means in India. It discusses one of the most important issues in contemporary India." — Arundhati Roy On 29 September 2006, in Khairlanji, Maharashtra, Surekha Bhotmange and her daughter Priyanka Bhotmange were stripped, paraded naked, raped repeatedly and killed. Surekha's sons Roshan and Sudhir were lynched. The entire village was involved. The four bodies were dumped into a canal. The Bhotmanges were dalit. The Bhotmanges have been forgotten. After all, two dalits are murdered every day in India. Anand Teltumbde reconstructs one of post-independence India's worst caste atrocities and tells us how and why Khairlanjis are always around us. www.navayana.org Available in bookstores from 10 October 2008. Buy online at www.scholarswithoutborders.in From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 17:17:12 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:17:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jamia Nagar Jan Sunwai In-Reply-To: <564b2fca0810150434q5e944f3m9cd14ad9fa662218@mail.gmail.com> References: <564b2fca0810150434q5e944f3m9cd14ad9fa662218@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810150447g6c8b7e94xa02a52a09ddbe9f4@mail.gmail.com> Wonder what Swami Agneewesh was doing there along with Mr. Harsh Mandhere... There is certainly no Agni in this so called Swami and surely all Andhere in this Mandhere. Which Civil Rights Movement do they belong to ? Can someone kindly explain ? They belong to the Save Islamic Terrorist Front (SITF) alone. It does interest us for sure, Nagraj Adve. The fact that such a congregation was allowed to speak against the state so openly at the site of encounter; only tells us how much freedom these Pseudos have. Swami travels to Srinagar to spend night with Geelani and meet terrorists like Yasin Malik. Harsh on the other hand leaves no stone unturned to defend Islamic Terrorists. God Be with all. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/15/08, Nagraj Adve wrote: > > This would interest folks on this list. > Naga > > Verdict of the Jan Sunwai Jury > > Academics and activists seek Judicial probe into the 19th September > encounter by a sitting Supreme Court judge; > Demand that investigations be handed over to the Central Bureau of > Investigations > > A Jan Sunwai on the Batla House 'Encounter' was organized by the Jamia > Teachers' Solidarity Group outside Khalilullah Masjid in Jamia Nagar > on 12th October (Sunday). The following scholars and activists > associated with civil rights movement constituted the jury: > > Swami Agnivesh, Member, National Integration Council > John Dayal, Member, National Integration Council > Tanika Sarkar, Professor of History, JNU > Tripta Wahi, Rtd. Professor of History, Delhi University > Vijay Singh, Professor of History, Delhi University > Nirmalangshu Mukherji, Professor of Philosophy, Delhi University > Harsh Mandar, Social Activist > > The need to hold a Public Hearing in the neighbourhood became > imperative to counter the increasing communalization of public > discourse in relation to the issue of terrorism and its association > with the Muslim community. The on-going targeting of the community by > the media and the different institutions of the State as well as > political parties has increased the sense of alienation and fear. To > overcome this situation and to extend solidarity to the community > residing in the Jamia Nagar area particularly by members of the > liberal, secular, democratic intelligentsia belonging to different > communities created a space of dialogue. This act of solidarity was > welcomed by the people who attended in thousands to be part of the > deliberations. > After hearing over a dozen testimonies given by local residents, the > jury observed the following. > A) The people of Jamia Nagar participated overwhelmingly in the > Jan Sunwai. The predominant sentiment among the local residents about > the 'encounter' is one of anger and disbelief. This feeling was > articulated by the participants and those who gave testimony. Local > residents have taken strong exception to the stereotyping of young > Muslim educated youth in this area and also in general as terrorists. > The links that the media and the state is making between education, > especially professional technical education among the Muslim youth and > terrorism has fueled fears that it will inhibit the progress and > social advancement of the community. > B) It is noted that prior to moving to L-18, the deceased had > verifications proofs in place with the local police. Sajid had > appeared for his 11th class examination at Jamia School and all > address details were genuine. Atif had enrolled in Jamia Millia > islamia. Till date, all identification records submitted by them have > been found to be true. The verification details for obtaining their > mobile connections are also genuine. These proofs establish the > credibility of the boys killed in the encounter as students seeking > opportunities and a career in the city. > C) The statement by people who bathed the bodies of the dead boys > before their burial was striking: they testified that the skin on > Atif's back was sloughed off; there were multiple bullet injuries on > Sajid's head. These cast aspersions on the police version. > D) On the nature of firing, all residents uniformly testified that > the firing happened in quick succession punctuated by short intervals > for nearly an hour after Inspector Sharma was brought down. The > members of the locality raised questions about the long duration of > firing in L-18. The death of Inspector Sharma too is shrouded in > mystery. > E) The witnesses also expressed their anguish about the way in > which the police kept the community on tenterhooks about the burial of > the bodies. The handing over of the bodies was delayed and the entire > process was marked by complete lack of sensitivity in relation to the > dead. The Jury feels that minimum human sensibilities must be > respected regardless of the charges against the dead. > > The jury strongly feels that there is ample ground to doubt the > veracity of the police version of the sequence of events on 19th > September. Following these observations in the jan sunwai, the Jury > demands: > A) Judicial probe into the 19th September encounter by a sitting > Supreme Court judge > B) The investigations must be handed over to the Central Bureau > of Investigations. > The jury is of the view that the on-going targeting of the Muslim > minority in the country has created an atmosphere of fear and anxiety. > The complete disregard and violation of fundamental civil rights in > the process of the State's efforts to control 'terrorist' activities > has raised questions regarding the secular character of the Indian > democracy and the impartiality of its institutions. The widespread > sense of alienation among the minorities can only be mitigated by > ensuring justice. > > Released by the Jamia teachers' Solidarity Group > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 17:48:15 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:48:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KHAIRLANJI: book launch on 16 October In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810150445g3bd37003u20a01b1eaf738192@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30810150445g3bd37003u20a01b1eaf738192@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810150518q55d3e28doa04977693b311f89@mail.gmail.com> Can you tell us the date, time and venue Shivam? thanks A On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Navayana > invites you to the launch of > > Khairlanji: A Strange and Bitter Crop > Anand Teltumbde > > with a panel discussion featuring > > Rajendra Yadav > Sukhadeo Thorat > Arundhati Roy > Harsh Mander > Nivedita Menon & > Anand Teltumbde > > Khairlanji > A Strange and Bitter Crop > By Anand Teltumbde > Demy Octavo, 215 pages, Rs 190 > ISBN: 978-81-89059-15-6 > > "Anand Teltumbde's analysis of the public, ritualistic massacre of a > dalit family in 21st century India exposes the gangrenous heart of our > society. It contextualizes the massacre and describes the manner in > which the social, political and state machinery, the police, the mass > media and the judiciary all collude to first create the climate for > such bestiality, and then cover it up. This is not a book about the > last days of relic feudalism, but a book about what modernity means in > India. It discusses one of the most important issues in contemporary > India." — Arundhati Roy > > On 29 September 2006, in Khairlanji, Maharashtra, Surekha Bhotmange > and her daughter Priyanka Bhotmange were stripped, paraded naked, > raped repeatedly and killed. Surekha's sons Roshan and Sudhir were > lynched. The entire village was involved. The four bodies were dumped > into a canal. The Bhotmanges were dalit. The Bhotmanges have been > forgotten. After all, two dalits are murdered every day in India. > Anand Teltumbde reconstructs one of post-independence India's worst > caste atrocities and tells us how and why Khairlanjis are always > around us. > > www.navayana.org > > Available in bookstores from 10 October 2008. > Buy online at www.scholarswithoutborders.in > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 15 18:48:09 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:48:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Jamia Nagar Encounter: 'Curioser and Curioser' Message-ID: <2A86CE9C-F02D-46C3-BE5B-C9AC9B05E370@sarai.net> Dear All, (apologies for cross posting on Kafila.org) The well known journalist Praveen Swami, who is celebrated by some as an 'encounter expert' and 'authority on terrorism' has finally offered his comment on the Jamia Nagar encounter in the Hindu. See - http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/10/stories/2008101053621100.htm I am grateful to Aditya Raj Kaul for having dutifully forwarded Swamijis latest offering on to the Reader List. It smells fresh. Now, I really like Lewis Carrol, and am happy that Swami has invoked Carrol, Alice and Wonderland while criticising those (like me) who have chosen to take a sceptical stance towards the official handout of what exactly happened on the 19th of October in L-18, Batla House, Jamia Nagar. With due respect to Praveen Swami, lets read him in the spirit of Carrol and come to conclusions about who is Alice, who is the Red Queen and who is the white Rabbit, in due course. It takes far more intelligence to read Swami than it must take for Swami to write like Swami. Which is disconcerting, given, that in Swamis case, he has a whole bureau full of intelligence to back him up, and all we have is the stuff between our individual ears, and occasionally our own eyes, our own ears and our own two feet. No wonder, we have to strain our credibility to believe the six and more impossible things that the police's special cell, the intelligence bureau and its anointed experts would would have us swallow whole for breakfast, with each morning's headlines in the newspapers. Swami is not alone. His statements must be seen in tandem with the curt responses that the National Security Adviser, Mr. M.K. Narayanan made to a suitably deferential Barkha Dutt ("those doubting the police version of the encounter are indulging in a travesty"), the intrepid journalist Mihir Srivastava, who has apparently heard three young canaries sing of desiring to blow up their mothers, while he sits with them under police escort (see his cover story 'inside the mind of the bombers' India Today, ) That this story totally contradicts what the same three said earlier in interviews to journalists and television channels (Mail Today, and Headlines Today - both of which are 'sister concerns' of India Today I recently attended the 'Jan Sunwai' that Nagraj Adve forwarded a report of on to this list. And no, I will not talk of what Swami Agnivesh, or Harsh Mander, or Arundhati Roy or Tripta Wahi said or did not say at that meeting. But I will mention that I heard Badr Taslim, Fayyaz Ahmed, Masih Aalam, Hamid Ali, Sohail Khan, Abdur Rahman Abid, Reza Hyder and Ateeq Jamil. These were neighbours and acquaintiainces of some of those killed and detained in the Jamia Nagar encounter. I heard them recount the details of what happened that morning, what shots they heard, which directions they were coming from, how far they were from Mohan Chand Sharma as he walked out of that lane into a waiting Indica car. What was the state of his shirt. i head Abdur Rahman Abid talk of what he saw when he bathed and prepared the bodies of Atif (in his twenties) and Sajid (seventeen, and so, a minor) and the exact location of the bullets holes on Atif's skull. I also heard Saquib Nisar's father speak about how he had been allowed to meet his son only once, and that too for ten minutes, and how no other relatives had been allowed to see him. I contrasted this with the two extensive, by all accounts, lengthy meetings that Mihir Srivastava had had with three of the detenus, including Saqib Nisar, under the watchful eye and strong arm of the Delhi police. I wondered about the legal status of confessions made to a reporter under conditions that cannot be said to be free of coercion. Before the meeting began, I also went to the house directly behind L 18, on to the terrace above its third floor, directly behind the fourth floor of the house where Atif and Sajid were shot on that day saw that there was no possibility of jumping on to any rooftop from the rooftop on L 18 without either breaking ones bones, or entering and then exiting another house through the door (which would have been impossible to do given that there were some of those eight policemen who are said to have gone up on to the fourth floor, waiting in the narrow passage that runs between L 18 and the flat immediately adjacent to it). I was not alone, several people who attended this meeting were with me. We can vouch for and corroborate each others statements. Contrary to all this, which I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears, we are being asked to believe the following (1) that two terrorists escaped by jumping from roofs (that are way too high to jump from in the first instance) at the same time as we were asked to believe (2) that they also simply walked out of the front door under the very nose of a gun wielding policeman. (3) that there was an exchange of fire when eyewitnesses and neighbours clearly say that they did not hear the acoustic differences due to directionality that occur when people use firearms against each other. (4) that the absence of bloodstains as a man walks down four floors and then some more on the street from a weapon fired at close range are not necessarily indicative of the absence of a lethal, life threatening gunshot wound. (5) that the 'two alleged terrorists' one of whom has several bullet injuries in his cranium (and we have seen the photographs that were taken of his head, just prior to burial, which have been published in Mail Today and Rashtriya Sahara) were sustained during combat. How a man who is clearly at the feet of his assailant and is shot in the head from above can be 'in combat' is another matter. (6) that a highly experienced counter-terrorism expert would go into a terrorist hideout without adequate protection, after his team had been watching this 'hideout' for more than two months. That makes exactly six things that are impossible to believe, and yet, Swami and Friends (Do I hear the wailing ghost of R.K. Narayan somewhere) want us to believe them all. This leads me to ask as to who exactly is the Queen here, and where, or who is Alice? And is every young man who gets caught or shot in Jamia Nagar by the long arm of the very special police, just another rabbit being made to run down a very dark hole ? When Swami writes, when the NSA comes to give his one on one interview to Barkha, when India Today does a cover splash, denying most of what it's own sister publication Mail Today has been saying, then it is a sure sign that the big boys have now come out to play. Swamiji admonishes those of us who persist in our terribly unsporting habit of asking questions about the absence of appropriate bloodstains on Mohan Chand Sharma's shirt, or other slightly opaque details of this so called encounter by saying that we inhabit a 'wonderland'. "Much has been made of a newspaper photograph which shows that Sharma's shirt was not covered in blood, with some charging that it demonstrates he was shot in the back. Forensic experts, however, note that bleeding from firearms injuries takes place through exit wounds — not, as in bad pop films, at the point of entry. In the photograph, signs of a bullet having ripped through Sharma's shirt are evident on his visible shoulder; so, too, is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back." It is way too convenient to dismiss this photograph simply by stating that it does not show evidence of Mohan Chand Sharma being shot from the back. The fundamental issue is not about whether he was shot from the front or the back. The fact is, we have been told that the bullet has not been found on his body. In which case, there must be an 'exit wound', somewhere.The dispute is not only about the trajectory and directionality of the bullet (shot from 'back' or 'front' or 'side') but about its timing, or, about whether or not it actually exited. The specific bloodstains that we are looking for would not appear on the shirt, eithe if (a) Sharma was not shot until the time this photograph was taken, or (b) if the bullet had not yet exited the body. If it is (a) we need to know who shot Sharma after this photograph was taken, when exactly was he shot (because we know that he was 'bleeding profusely' by the time he reached Holy Family hospital) and why he was shot. If (b) the bullet was still in Sharma's body (if it stays inside, it can, on occasion arrest hamorrhage by blocking an outlet) then, we need to know what happened to the bullet, why did it disappear, and what kind of bullet it was in the first place (which gun was it fired from). The only way to know what happened is to do a careful analysis of the authentic untampered autopsy report. This is one of the many reasons why the incident needs to be investigated independently. As has been stated elsewhere, the body was not given to the doctors performing the autopsy in a state where clear indications of entrance and exit wounds could be ascertained. see - "Police Theories Encountered" by Shobita Naithani, Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 39, Dated Oct 04, 2008, The Tehelka report says "...a senior doctor who conducted the postmortem on Inspector MC Sharma at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences spoke to TEHELKA of the damage to his vital organs. “It was difficult to establish the entry and exit points of the bullet because conclusive evidence had been wiped out by the interventions of the doctors at Holy Family [where Sharma was rushed to].” Swami, in his text, says "Judging by Sharma's injuries, as recorded by doctors at the Holy Family Hospital in New Friend's Colony and later re-examined at the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences' Trauma Centre, he was fired at from two directions." Now, how can we ascertain that there were 'two directions' of fire, when it is not even possible to tell an entry from an exit wound because of the interventions done on the body at Holy Family Hospital. Either Swami is fantasizing about the contents of the autopsy, or he knows what the autopsy report contains, and is deliberately misleading us. Further, while discussing what is visible in the photograph, Swami says - :so, too, is evidence of the profuse bleeding from the back". Now, I have examined the photograph very carefully as it was reproduced in the Hindustan Times. and I see no evidence of profuse bleeding from the back". There is evidence of "profuse bleeding" from his left shoulder, but then a shoulder is not an abdomen. Should we then conclude that our distinguished counter terrorism expert is the kind of person who would be colloquially recognized (pardon my french) as someone who can't tell his "arse from his elbow". Finally, I come to the most colourful aspects of Swami's theory. Once again, we are asked to attend to the arcana of telephone surveillance. Its curious, for instance, that Swami mentions the fact that one of the dead alleged terrorist's Atif Amin's phone (and hence his movements) was under surveillance from as early as immediately after the 19th of July (a week before the Ahmedabad bombings) This occurred, because, a number traced to Bharuch, Gujarat, which was purported to be that of a person who had parked the bomb laden cars in Ahmedabad, had also both received calls from Jamia Nagar and had itself been traced on occasion to Jamia Nagar. Swami says 'The authorities mounted a discreet watch on his phone but decided not to question him in the hope that he would again be contacted by the perpetrators..." (of the Ahmedabad bombings). That moreover, 'investigations' had revealed that an 'assault squad' with a 'top commander' called Bashir had left Ahmedabad for a 'safe house' in Jamia Nagar, Delhi on the 26th of July. So the Delhi Police's special cell, and its 'top phone surveillance and interception' expert, according to the 'top counter-terrorism expert commentator' Praveen Swami, had been watching Atif from around two months before the bomb blasts in Delhi (which Atif, and the other inhabitants and visitors to L-18, Batla House were supposed to have had a hand in). Atif, as we know, listed his name and address on numerous documents. Which included phone registrations, driving licenses, tenant verification forms. His phone number and address are said to have been uploaded even on his orkut profile. What can we make of the import of this suggestion, that the special cell had been 'watching' or 'listening' to Atif for two months before the alleged encounter. That the special cell, either, followed Atif and allowed him to plant his bombs (logical possibility 1), or, neglected to keep its watch (logical possibility 2) or, is inventing the story of the phone records, in exactly the same way in which it invented the story of phone records, IMEI numbers and other details in the 13 December case (logical possibility 3). Unfortunately, there are no other possibilities. If possibilities 1 and 2 regarding the alleged phone taps are to be believed, then, the incompetence, or lethargy of the special cell, including the late Mohan Chand Sharma, is directly to blame for allowing a terrorist outrage to happen. (and this would be the only conclusions that can be drawn, were Swami to be right in this case). If Swami is right in this regard, we have to ask "what prevented the special cell from mounting a 24 hour seven days a week watch on the inhabitants of a house from which calls were made to the bombers in Gujarat, and finally, what prevented them from catching them red handed as they went to plant bombs in Delhi" If, on the other hand, Swami and his 'extra-curricular' colleagues in the security apparatus are lying, and there was in fact no surveillance of the kind that they say occurred on Atif's phone, then, the special cell is guilty of pre-meditated assasination, and bureaucrats, journalists, commentators and so called 'experts' who are covering for them are aiding and abetting them in their crime. They are using our sense of danger, our daily apprehension about yet another pathetic, violent, condemnable incident of terrorism as a plaything as they go about charting their pathetic course. In all likelihood, they and their masters, which include the home minister and the prime minister of this government, and all those who ratchet up the rhetoric on the so called war against terror are either not interested in making sure that terrorism does not end, or have a vested interest in seeing the macabre dance of terror and counter terror go on, an on. And yet, for many people, Swamiji can say no wrong. If this is indeed so, then we are trulyin wonderland, and this wonderland we all inhabit, like any respectable fairground attraction has its chambers of horrors, its roller coaster rides between contradictory positions, its talking corpses and its decomposing truths. In Alice in Wonderland, the Cheshire Cat, after vanishing, left its grin behind, here, Swami and friends, having said their pieces, leaves us only with their hovering grimaces. Unfortunately, while this effort might make do as an example of the second rate variety of first information reports, it does not pass muster as a convincing body of argument. For that, Swami, Mr. Narayanan, Mihir Srivastav and all the rest who have danced their dance of death, will have to try harder. Like Alice, the most interesting sojourner through Wonderland till date, we might be tempted to say, as we continue to read journalists with excellent sources in the intelligence apparatus, or, should we say intelligence operatives with impeccable clout and credentials within certain respectable newspapers, magazines and television channels - 'curioser and curioser'. From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 15 18:50:34 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:50:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KHAIRLANJI: book launch on 16 October In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0810150518q55d3e28doa04977693b311f89@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30810150445g3bd37003u20a01b1eaf738192@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810150518q55d3e28doa04977693b311f89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810150620v76e0066frc088b8d66d0be446@mail.gmail.com> Apologies - the date is tomorrow 16 October; 6:30 pm; the venue is Indian Social Institute, 10 Institutional Area, Lodhi Road, New Delhi. best shivam On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Can you tell us the date, time and venue Shivam? > > thanks > A > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: >> >> Navayana >> invites you to the launch of >> >> Khairlanji: A Strange and Bitter Crop >> Anand Teltumbde >> >> with a panel discussion featuring >> >> Rajendra Yadav >> Sukhadeo Thorat >> Arundhati Roy >> Harsh Mander >> Nivedita Menon & >> Anand Teltumbde >> >> Khairlanji >> A Strange and Bitter Crop >> By Anand Teltumbde >> Demy Octavo, 215 pages, Rs 190 >> ISBN: 978-81-89059-15-6 >> >> "Anand Teltumbde's analysis of the public, ritualistic massacre of a >> dalit family in 21st century India exposes the gangrenous heart of our >> society. It contextualizes the massacre and describes the manner in >> which the social, political and state machinery, the police, the mass >> media and the judiciary all collude to first create the climate for >> such bestiality, and then cover it up. This is not a book about the >> last days of relic feudalism, but a book about what modernity means in >> India. It discusses one of the most important issues in contemporary >> India." — Arundhati Roy >> >> On 29 September 2006, in Khairlanji, Maharashtra, Surekha Bhotmange >> and her daughter Priyanka Bhotmange were stripped, paraded naked, >> raped repeatedly and killed. Surekha's sons Roshan and Sudhir were >> lynched. The entire village was involved. The four bodies were dumped >> into a canal. The Bhotmanges were dalit. The Bhotmanges have been >> forgotten. After all, two dalits are murdered every day in India. >> Anand Teltumbde reconstructs one of post-independence India's worst >> caste atrocities and tells us how and why Khairlanjis are always >> around us. >> >> www.navayana.org >> >> Available in bookstores from 10 October 2008. >> Buy online at www.scholarswithoutborders.in >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 20:22:50 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:50 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" In-Reply-To: <246011.80423.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <246011.80423.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48F603C2.2010007@gmail.com> Dear Prabhakar and Lalit, Prabhakar, as you were my batchmate at one of the IITs and I am the one who introduced you to this list in the context of a list member's abusive attack on our common alma mater, I must confess to being a little concerned about offending you with this post, in which I shall be contradicting your argument. Hope you will take it not personally but in the spirit of a reasoned conversation about an extremely divisive issue that is vitally important to us both and to every Indian, and indirectly important to the rest of the world. Although I simply cannot afford to take the time to read Reader-list posts at this time, much less post comments myself, I am now writing specifically with you in mind, because I would like you, as my batchmate, to know what I think is correct and why I think so. Apologies in advance if I take a long time to respond to your, Lalit's or anyone else's response to this post. That said, what I understand from a quick scan of the two comments posted by the two of you (below) is that (a) Hindus are treated shabbily in India, (b) Hindu extremism is a reaction to Muslim extremism in Kashmir, and (c) someone with a Muslim name (partly in the case of Samina) should not criticize views held by Hindus - a *section* of Hindus in this case, as your views are not held by all Hindus as you can see on this list, as well as in the election results of the last decade or more. I think those Hindus who believe in argument (a) need to rethink the issue in light of concrete socio-economic indicators, such as levels of employment, education, etc., which are far lower for Muslims as far as I know (though cannot cite figures at this time) and social practices that result from a view - held to this day by what I believe is a large section of Hindus - of Muslims as being alien and socially unacceptable. A linguistic expression of this is the practice of referring to Muslims in the words for which Radhikarajen was banned from this list. It would be inappropriate to mention here the very common Hindi word of the street which Radhikarajen translated into English, and which I am sure most if not all Indians on this list are already familiar with. Argument (b) is ahistorical in my opinion. Radical Hinduism in fact preceded not only radical Islamism but even Jinnah-style Islamic politics. I pointed this out to Radhikarajen in the course of a prolonged conversation. Please excuse me for being unable to reproduce it here, but it can be found in the archive. As for argument (c), I think one's affiliation is irrelevant to his or her right to criticize something. The argument that someone with a Hindu name should not criticize the views of some Hindus or even Hinduism itself, goes against modern values, which since the Enlightenment has taught us to be rational, i.e., judge everything by reason and nothing else. There are different kinds of rationality, of course, and Enlightenment rationality has had some very negative consequences, but I am referring specifically to that aspect of it which taught Christians to criticize and challenge the church in Europe and Indian Hindus to criticize and challenge Hinduism in the "Indian/Bengal Renaissance". The first led to an arguably better Christianity (in most denominations) without excommunication, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. The second led to an arguably better Hinduism *as a whole* without sati (with exceptions that take place even now), virulent casteism (except for certain regions in which caste-based killings and massacres still take place now and then), ban on widow remarriage, etc., and a kind of liberalism in Indian society as a whole, reflected in the Constitution, that would have been unthinkable before it - and aspects of which, such as the ban on sati, the already enlightened British rulers initially opposed on political considerations. The question now is, are we ready to renounce those values? Personally, I consider myself perfectly within my rights to criticize not only my own religion but also my ethnic group, city, state, country, alma mater and so on, right down to my own parents. Best, Tapas Prabhakar Singh wrote: > I agree with you Lalit ! > One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide. > Regards, > Prabhakar > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Lalit Ambardar > To: Samina Mishra ; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" > > One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history. > > If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route at those uninhabitable heights. > Similarly no concern is shown for those credulous wailing mothers,orphans,widows whose dear ones continue to fall prey to pan islamic indoctrination & the mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from secular india. Terror commanders who self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks, courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest & the police action that followed). > > To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to avenge some perceived injustice back home. > > And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly. > There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie. > Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the valentine even. > > Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building process.Let us stop being parochial & selective. > Regards all > LA > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 21:32:40 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Request for Unsubscribing Message-ID: <834039.91851.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Moderater, I want to unsubscribe from this forum.Please remove my name at the earliest. Regards, Prabhakar Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Wed Oct 15 21:34:12 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Request for Unsubscribing Message-ID: <542218.94836.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Moderater, I want to unsubscribe from this forum.Please remove my name at the earliest. Regards, Prabhakar Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 22:42:16 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:12:16 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" In-Reply-To: <48F603C2.2010007@gmail.com> References: <246011.80423.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48F603C2.2010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: Correction: I meant "someone with a Hindu name" ... Apologies. 2008/10/15 Tapas Ray : > and (c) someone with a Muslim name (partly in the case of Samina) should not > criticize views held by Hindus ... From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 22:47:28 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:17:28 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Help with a phrase In-Reply-To: <5c5369880810150025r7e30f0e5k3fd7eb69faaf7cce@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880810150025r7e30f0e5k3fd7eb69faaf7cce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is no ignorance but a syndrome. Quite typical of those who refuse to see or hear any thing that doesn’t suit their senses or their uni-track ideological persuasions or personal interests. Anyway here is the update. “Azadi- bara- e- Islam” (freedom through Islam) is just an improvised version of those more familiar provocations like “hum ko kya chahiye- azadi, azadi ka matlab kya- la ilah e ilallah” (what do we want-independence, what dose independence mean- la ilah e ilallah) and “yahan kya chalega –Nizam e Mustafa” (what will rule here- Nizam e Mustafa) etc.etc. (it is hoped ignorance is not feigned about these as well) often resorted to by the Kashmiri pan Islaimists seeking secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from India. This one ‘azadi bara e Islam’ was raised recently when the Kashmiri pan Islamists exhibited rabid intolerance against the allocation of a mere 100 acres of land for temporary facilities along arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route by none other than that senior Islamist who also attempted to seek exclusive leadership rights in his favour from the zealots much to the annoyance of the other contenders. He is the guy who was airlifted in a state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to Mumbai for treatment not long ago. Oh, yes he is also seen in that ‘devotional’ film ‘Jashn e azadi’ consoling the wailing relatives of dead militants & justifying their martyrdom citing holy scriptures. What is so particular about the period 2003-2008?Yes, this is the period when tourism has picked up in Kashmir, property values have gone up – properties left by exiled Hindu Pandits usurped & sold & resold on premium- you have malls & above all you see all those terror commanders who should be tried for crimes against humanity going around as politicians ( makeover courtesy same self acclaimed unitrack liberal mindset). And what about the period 1989-90, when the process of ethnic cleansing of Hindu Pandits was launched? By the way, there was this rabid one then “asy gasce Pakistan- batav rocs ta batnev san” (we want Pakistan- along with the Hindu Pandit women but without the Pandit men) or that killer one “Raliv, galiv, ya caliv” (join, perish or flee). These were some of the rants along with the then freshly acquired AK47s that were used against the beleaguered Hindu Pandits. Doesn’t suit the senses so feign ignorance. Or is it that ‘devotional’ films are not expected to show gory pictures of brutalities committed by the protagonists. And yes, it is heartening to know that ‘frozen turbulence is finally being referred to albeit selectively to suit the senses. Regards all LA > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:55:54 +0530> From: kaksanjay at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Help with a phrase> > Since this List is fast emerging as a one-stop resource on all things to do> with Kashmir, I wonder if someone could help with a phrase that I've started> encountering quite frequently in posts here: 'azadi bara e islam' (freedom> through Islam), presumably as a slogan raised in/about Kashmir.> Since this is not a slogan that I've heard in Kashmir in the period 2003-08,> and or even encountered (oops! bad word) in my reading of old classics such> as Jagmohan's "My Frozen Turbulence", I would really like to know what the> provenance of this phrase is.> Is this a recent slogan in Kashmir? Is it an old one?> With all thanks for the help> Sanjay Kak> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 22:55:58 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:25:58 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: <249115.40005.qm@web8404.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> <249115.40005.qm@web8404.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sadia, Are you suggesting that the Hindus are persecuting? Hope you are'nt justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu Pandits in Kashmir? Let us condemn violence both physical as well as mental & not be selective about it. Regards all LA > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:13:35 +0530> From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> To: reader-list at sarai.net; virtuallyme at gmail.com; lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > Dear Lalit> If, according to you "Hindus have welcome all persecuted communities from world over", why are Hindu-persecuted communities taking refuge today in the forests and relief camps in Orissa, Gujarat, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Andhra?> > SF> > > --- On Tue, 14/10/08, Rohan DSouza wrote:> > > From: Rohan DSouza > > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > To: reader-list at sarai.net> > Date: Tuesday, 14 October, 2008, 9:42 AM> > Dear All,> > > > Am forwarding an interesting article which explores the> > concept of Hindutva> > and tries to point out the differences between it and> > Hinduism. The author> > puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a political> > project, grounded in> > the principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating> > and maintaining> > an authoritarian state, with suppressive control over human> > beings.> > > > He also brings out the difference between the inclusive,> > open approach of> > Hinduism and the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva.> > > > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there have> > been many> > discussions around similar issues.> > > > Regards,> > Rohan> > ________________________________________________________________________> > ________________________________________________________________________> > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L.> > D'Souza.> > Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, Ahmedabad"> > sjprashant at gmail.com> > Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT))> > > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA> > - Averthanus L. D'Souza.> > > > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a former Secretary of the Vishwa> > Hindu Parishad> > (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus are> > the Muslims, the> > Christians, the Hindu intellectuals and the media." > > It is very significant> > as well as intriguing that Vispute included the Hindu> > intellectuals and the> > media in his category of the "enemies" of Hindus.> > It does not take great> > intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this> > statement by a very> > prominent Hindutva promoter. It is quite obvious that > > Hindu intellectuals> > (nor any other reasonably educated person for that matter)> > will refuse to> > swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by> > the Hindutva> > propagandists to arouse anger and hatred against Muslims> > and Christians,> > for which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person> > (including Hindu> > "intellectuals") will see through the falsity of> > the arguments which the VHP> > advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely because> > the position of the> > Hindutva campaign is irrational and untenable that the> > propagandists prefer> > to recruit uneducated and unthinking followers who can> > easily be manipulated> > to believe anything that is fed to them. The Bajrang> > Dal, which is> > considered to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of> > the VHP is a good> > example of uneducated youth, with more passion than reason,> > who are willing> > to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are> > conditioned to> > believe that heroism consists in slaughtering helpless> > women and children,> > and burning innocent people alive. In this respect the> > Bajrang Dal is no> > different from the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the> > youth brigades of the> > other fascist movements in Europe who were used to> > terrorize the population> > into submission. With their saffron head-bands and> > wielding 'trishuls',> > and screaming full-throated war-cries, these rampaging> > gangs can cause> > terror anywhere - which is precisely what they are trained> > to do. They are> > 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of the> > morality of the orders or> > the consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent> > RSS leader,> > personally met the Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini> > in Rome on 19> > March, 1931, visited some important military schools and> > educational> > institutions and became acquainted with the Balilla and the> > Avanguardisti> > organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the> > keystone of the fascist> > system is the 'indoctrination' of youths, rather> > than education. This is> > the foundation on which the Bajrang Dal is built.> > > > While cultivated ignorance of the youth is one facet which> > is promoted by> > the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate falsification of> > current facts as well> > as of History is another method of indoctrination used. > > Lal .Krishna.> > Advani closely studied the system of propaganda developed> > by Nazi Germany.> > He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action> > developed two other> > distinctive characteristics: firstly, adoption of> > propaganda as a key> > instrument of State policy; and secondly, the systematic > > development of a> > demonology to keep the masses in a mood of perpetual> > tension and hysteria."> > (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's Scrap Book" ) > > Advani and his colleagues have> > tried hard to refine and improve upon the> > propaganda-cum-terror machinery> > which was developed by Nazi Germany, specially by> > Hitler's most trusted> > lieutenant Paul Joseph Goebbels, whose name has now become> > synonymous with> > high-voltage mendacious propaganda.> > > > One of the more prominent falsifications which the Hindutva> > protagonists are> > propagating is that Hindutva is an integral part of> > Hinduism. No sensible> > person, (including thinking Hindus) accepts this claim. > > In fact, the vast> > majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of> > Hinduism with> > Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly respected religion of> > long standing. It> > is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one> > of the oldest> > religions in human history. It outlived the ancient> > religions of the> > Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and> > the Egyptians.> > Hinduism has always been associated with> > 'sanatana' which denotes> > timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has never been> > associated with any> > particular political system; nor has it ever shown a> > preference for any> > particular cultural context. In the broadest sense of the> > word, Hinduism> > is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of> > rituals, beliefs, popular> > practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita,> > Lord Krishna> > tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I> > accept them through> > that very path."> > > > In sharp contrast to Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is> > a clearly> > distinguishable "political" ideology which is> > straining to concoct a> > "national" identity based on the Hindu religion.> > Hindutva is a clearly> > fascist political movement, which has drawn much of its> > inspiration from> > European fascism and German Nazism. The most prominent> > protagonists of> > Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav> > Sadashiv> > Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama Prasad Mukherjee (1901 -> > 1953) among> > others, have derived their ideologies from European fascism> > and modified it> > to suit Indian conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the> > "International> > General Secretary" of the VHP explicitly says that> > India is a Hindu Rashtra> > since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a religion but a> > synonym for Hindu> > nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that> > the rejection of> > the claims of Hindutva cannot be construed as being> > anti-Hinduism. In> > fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of> > Hinduism by the Hindutva> > brigade that the Hindu intellectuals have rejected it. > > The Hindutva> > fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between> > Hindutva and Hinduism.> > They have been able to increase their popularity because> > they repeat the> > (false) propaganda that the promotion of Hindutva is the> > promotion of> > Hinduism> > > > There are many distortions which the Hindutva fascists have> > wrought on> > Hinduism. Suffice it to indicate only a few blatant> > contradictions in> > their propaganda.> > > > One: Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu> > "Rashtra". The> > secularism enshrined in the Indian Constitution is> > violently rejected by the> > Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they have made a> > conscious and> > vigorous effort to create an "international" > > Hindu community. The> > formation of the "World Hindu Council" and the> > creation of the post of an> > "International General Secretary" of the VHP is a> > clear contradiction of the> > claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of creating> > a Hindu> > "nation." This contradiction is obvious to> > every sane person, except, of> > course, the rabid Hindutva ideologues.> > > > The claim made by Pravin Togadia that Hindutva as a> > "Rashtra" has existed> > since millennia is patently false. By all historical> > accounts, whether in> > ancient or mediaeval India, there were several> > "kingdoms" or "empires."> > Among the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan> > empire of> > Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 B.C. to 184 B.C.) and> > the Asokan empire> > (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other> > lesser kingdoms like> > those of Kushana. In the south there were the numerous> > kingdoms of> > Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan> > dynasty and the> > Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to 1567 A.D.) and the better> > known Maratha> > Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the> > course of history, all> > these kingdoms were in conflict with one or another with a> > view to expand> > their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had been taken> > away by force.> > There was never a "nation" called India. Even> > after the gaining of> > political independence from Britain in 1947, it was left> > to Sardar> > Vallabhbhai Patel to consolidate the various major and> > minor kingdoms into a> > unified Nation. It is indisputable that it was under> > Pandit Jawaharlal> > Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called> > "Princely States" were> > abolished and integrated into the State of India, which,> > for the first time> > in its entire history adopted a Constitution which was to> > govern the> > "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim> > that India was always a Hindu> > "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it is> > still seeking to "create"> > the Hindu Rashtra of its dream.> > > > Two: the VHP claims that people who profess and practice> > other religions> > cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This is in stark> > contradiction to the> > repeated statements made by the Hindutva leaders that> > Hindutva is a> > "secular" concept. In fact, they claim that they> > are secular precisely> > because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being> > "pseudo-secular."> > They continue to trumpet this obvious contradiction that> > only Hindus are> > secular and the followers of all other religions are not> > secular. Yet,> > they also claim that Hindutva is a "composite"> > culture which embraces a> > variety of religions, cults, languages and ethnic cultures.> > The Hindutva> > ideologues have never been able to reconcile this glaring> > contradiction in> > their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other > > ethnic cultures, why is it> > that they are systematically forcing tribals (who are not,> > and never have> > been, Hindu) to "convert" to Hinduism? On the> > one hand they have> > sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion"> > legislation in many States;> > because they are ostensibly opposed to conversions by> > force, fraud or> > inducements; yet on the other hand, they themselves are> > forcibly> > "converting" tribals, members of scheduled castes> > and followers of other> > religions. They offer the lame and unconvincing argument> > that they are only> > bringing back these people to the Hindu fold. They have> > called this> > movement a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the> > tribals have never been> > Hindu. They have their own culture, religion and social> > practices. "Ghar> > vapasi" in their case simply does not make any sense.> > Former Indian Prime> > Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that> > "ultimately what they are> > aiming at is authoritarian rule. Then not only will the> > minorities be> > targeted, but also those who do not agree with them. You> > will be declared an> > anti-national and treated thus."> > > > One of the more prominent characteristics of any> > dictatorial political> > movement is the systematic creation of confusion in the> > minds of the> > citizens so that they can never be sure of what the truth> > is. This is done> > in two ways. One is to spread rumours through the cadres> > of grassroots> > level workers, and another is to simultaneously issue> > "official" statements> > "clarifying" the official position on any> > particular issue. This is a very> > subtle psychological game which is being played by the top> > leadership of the> > Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and> > not fall into the> > trap which is deliberately created by the Hindutva> > ideologues. A glaringly> > example of this "double-speak" is the fact that> > the Bajrang Dal leaders in> > Karnataka have openly stated on TV channels that they are> > responsible for> > the attacks against Christian churches, institutions and> > personnel. At the> > same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the VHP> > leadership insist> > that the Bajrang Dal had nothing to do with the attacks.> > > > There are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal> > of the Sangh> > Parivar to be treated at length in a brief essay, but this> > short analysis> > will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions:> > > > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu Solidarity.> > > > The entire Hindutva movement is grounded on the principle> > that India is a> > Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights of> > citizenship in India.> > In this view, Muslims and Christians, in particular, but> > also Jews,> > Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as non-Indian. > > Each time a violent> > attack is carried out against Muslims or Christians, the> > Bajrang Dal> > terrorists shout that the Muslims and Christians should> > either become Hindus> > or leave the country. Islam and Christianity are> > considered to be> > "impositions" by foreign Muslim conquerors or by> > Western Christian> > missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S.> > Golwalkar are very> > explicit about this. According to them, non-Hindus cannot> > enjoy rights of> > citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned that their> > continued> > presence in India is entirely dependent on the> > "goodwill" of the Hindus and> > the Christians are "advised" to form an Indian> > Church under the complete> > control of the Indian Government, similar to the National> > Church in China.> > The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only> > those who sever> > their links with any international community and become> > entirely Hindu will> > be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India.> > > > The stark contradiction in this position is the fact that> > Hindutva is Not> > confined to the geographical territory of India; it is> > sought to be made an> > international religion. Ever since the famous Parliament> > of Religions was> > addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the> > "missionary" dimension of> > Hinduism was begun with the formation of the Vedanta> > Society in 1893 in New> > York. Today there are Hindu "missions" all> > over the world, in the U.S.A.,> > in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the West Indies, and> > in South Africa.> > The claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a> > Hindu "Rashtra," is,> > therefore, patently false. The comparison with the> > expansionist movement> > of Nazi Germany is too striking to be missed. First it> > started with the> > unification of German speaking countries; then it was> > extended to include> > all people of Aryan ethnic stock. Since racial> > characteristics could not be> > "assimilated" the Nazis began a systematic> > extermination, first of the> > Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. > > The Hindutva claim to> > form a Hindu Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud> > perpetrated by the> > Hindutva ideologues. From a close examination of the> > literature available,> > it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to establish a> > theocratic Hindu> > State in India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of> > neighbouring> > Pakistan.> > > > Tolerance v/s xenophobia.> > > > Another myth which has been created by the Hindutva> > protagonists is the> > claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and is based on> > secular values.> > This is far from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly> > intolerant movement> > which thrives on spreading hatred and fear among people. > > In fact it is so> > intolerant that it seeks to re-write history, which,> > according to it, has> > been written by "pseudo-secularists." Its> > distortion of history is so> > blatant that it has even created the myth that Asoka and> > Chandragupta> > Maurya were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification> > of History. All> > reliable sources tell us that Asoka ruled over a Buddhist> > kingdom, and that> > Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the Jaina> > tradition. The> > Hindutva view of history is not based on scientific> > research, but on an> > imagination running wild. The Hindutva> > "historians" are worthy disciples> > of Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and> > over again, people> > will soon begin to accept it as the truth.> > > > If Hindutva is a tolerant political ideology which respects> > secular values,> > why is it that in all the States which are ruled by the BJP> > there is a> > systematic attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is> > it that tribals,> > who are not, and never have been, Hindu are being> > terrorized into converting> > to Hinduism?> > > > The Hindutva fanatics claim that they are against> > conversion by force, fraud> > or by material inducements. In fact they accuse the> > Christians of having> > converted Hindus by offering such material inducements. > > Yet, the duplicity> > of their claims is starkly evident in the fact that> > wherever they have> > attacked the Christians, independent Commissions of> > Enquiry have not been> > able to confirm a single case of conversion by the use of> > fraud, force or> > material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear> > about such> > conversions. If the Hindutva terrorists have any evidence> > of such> > conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. > > Instead, they resort to> > violence and terror against helpless, innocent and weak> > communities. They> > themselves use force to (re)convert people.> > > > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations of> > falsehood, force and> > terror. In times of natural calamities, like the> > earthquake in Gujarat,> > they prevented anyone else from assisting the affected> > people. They sought> > exclusive rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this> > aid in a highly> > reprehensible manner. Muslim victims were carefully and> > deliberately> > excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that> > they swore to> > remain or to become Hindu. There is voluminous evidence> > of such> > discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And> > these very people> > claim that Hindutva is a humanitarian and generous> > movement.> > > > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the Hindutva> > movement. They> > should examine all their claims critically; and most of> > all, citizens> > should not be beguiled into believing that the Hindutva> > movement has any> > redeeming features. It is an unmitigated evil.> > > > The battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all> > faiths, varieties of> > cultures and languages, are facing a grave threat to the> > secular,> > democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We> > need to join> > forces to defeat the evil forces of fascism and> > authoritarianism. The> > fight is not between Hinduism and other religions. The > > fight is really> > between secularism and democracy, on the one hand, and> > fascism on the other.> > > > Averthanus L. D'Souza,> > D-13, La Marvel Colony,> > Dona Paula, Goa 403 004.> > Tel: 2453628> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject> > header.> > To unsubscribe:> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive:> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address _________________________________________________________________ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 23:36:50 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:36:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Help with a phrase In-Reply-To: References: <5c5369880810150025r7e30f0e5k3fd7eb69faaf7cce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810151106u99aeb9eg96721452629dab00@mail.gmail.com> Well said Lalitji. I need not say anything more. Its self explanatory. Just wanted to add something interesting in a news item; informing people about Syed Ali Shah Geelani's surgery in the Indian Capital. In a blockbuster movie titled "Jashn-e-Aazadi" (read: Freedom to kill Kashmiri Pandits) directed by none other than Sanjay Kak (Need I say more?!); Geelani goes on to say; even if they (India) lay roads of gold for us; we won't accept them. We'll boycott just everything. Wonder how the Indian Pacemaker works out well with him? Indian Pacemaker Battery is worse? He shouldn't take chances I guess. Read the attached story for more on this. I'll return hale and hearty: Geelani* Rising Kashmir News* Srinagar, Oct 10: Two days ahead of his departure for treatment in Delhi, Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman, Syed Ali Geelani expressed hope that he will return home hale and hearty after the surgery. "Indian agencies attacked me 14 times but they could not take away even my single hair. I will be return soon hale and hearty after undergoing treatment in Delhi's Escorts hospital," the septuagenarian leader said. Geelani said the pacemaker in his heart installed on April 25, 1997 is one of the longest living pacemakers. "Its battery has to be replaced and people should not work. It will be a normal treatment," said Geelani. "Doctors SKIMS has advised me to go for the intestinal checkup (gastroenterology) at Delhi. I will leave for treatment to Delhi Sunday afternoon and will be treated by the doctors at Escorts hospital," he added. Geelani to have pacemaker change Kashmir Watch Srinagar, Oct 8: Hurriyat Conference (G) Chairman, Syed Ali Geelani, was discharged from Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences, Soura, with an advice for a pacemaker change in New Delhi's Escort's Hospital. He is likely to leave for New Delhi on October, 12 but will attend the Co-ordination Committee meet scheduled for today. Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/15/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > This is no ignorance but a syndrome. Quite typical of those who refuse to > see or hear any thing that doesn't suit their senses or their uni-track > ideological persuasions or personal interests. Anyway here is the update. > > "Azadi- bara- e- Islam" (freedom through Islam) is just an improvised > version of those more familiar provocations like "hum ko kya chahiye- > azadi, azadi ka matlab kya- la ilah e ilallah" (what do we > want-independence, what dose independence mean- la ilah e ilallah) and > "yahan kya chalega –Nizam e Mustafa" (what will rule here- Nizam e Mustafa) > etc.etc. (it is hoped ignorance is not feigned about these as well) often > resorted to by the Kashmiri pan Islaimists seeking secession of Muslim > majority Kashmir valley from India. > > This one 'azadi bara e Islam' was raised recently when the Kashmiri pan > Islamists exhibited rabid intolerance against the allocation of a mere 100 > acres of land for temporary facilities along arduous Amarnath pilgrimage > route by none other than that senior Islamist who also attempted to seek > exclusive leadership rights in his favour from the zealots much to the > annoyance of the other contenders. He is the guy who was airlifted in a > state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to Mumbai for treatment not long ago. > Oh, yes he is also seen in that 'devotional' film 'Jashn e azadi' consoling > the wailing relatives of dead militants & justifying their martyrdom citing > holy scriptures. > > What is so particular about the period 2003-2008?Yes, this is the > period when tourism has picked up in Kashmir, property values have gone up > – properties left by exiled Hindu Pandits usurped & sold & resold on > premium- you have malls & above all you see all those terror commanders who > should be tried for crimes against humanity going around as politicians ( > makeover courtesy same self acclaimed unitrack liberal mindset). > > And what about the period 1989-90, when the process of ethnic cleansing of > Hindu Pandits was launched? By the way, there was this rabid one then "asy > gasce Pakistan- batav rocs ta batnev san" (we want Pakistan- along with the > Hindu Pandit women but without the Pandit men) or that killer one "Raliv, > galiv, ya caliv" (join, perish or flee). These were some of the rants along > with the then freshly acquired AK47s that were used against the beleaguered > Hindu Pandits. Doesn't suit the senses so feign ignorance. Or is it that > 'devotional' films are not expected to show gory pictures of brutalities > committed by the protagonists. > > > And yes, it is heartening to know that 'frozen turbulence is finally being > referred to albeit selectively to suit the senses. > Regards all > LA > > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:55:54 +0530> From: kaksanjay at gmail.com> To: > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Help with a phrase> > Since > this List is fast emerging as a one-stop resource on all things to do> with > Kashmir, I wonder if someone could help with a phrase that I've started> > encountering quite frequently in posts here: 'azadi bara e islam' (freedom> > through Islam), presumably as a slogan raised in/about Kashmir.> Since this > is not a slogan that I've heard in Kashmir in the period 2003-08,> and or > even encountered (oops! bad word) in my reading of old classics such> as > Jagmohan's "My Frozen Turbulence", I would really like to know what the> > provenance of this phrase is.> Is this a recent slogan in Kashmir? Is it an > old one?> With all thanks for the help> Sanjay Kak> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: From lawrence at altlawforum.org Wed Oct 15 23:57:26 2008 From: lawrence at altlawforum.org (Lawrence Liang) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 23:57:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Day 8 of Naz Hearings 15.10.08 In-Reply-To: <4def3c470810150919x2e08d922ta2993916f0d65c02@mail.gmail.com> References: <4def3c470810150919x2e08d922ta2993916f0d65c02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: wow, golden showers in the delhi high court , what a joy :) Day eight of the Naz hearings 15.10.08 The ASG submitted some additional material to the Court based on which he made the following submissions : The ASG continued his submissions by making the point that HIV transmission was through sexual contact and as per the study of sexual behavior in the US , over 89% of the transmission was due to homosexual behaviour. J. Shah asked a question about the validity of the article relied upon by the ASG and made the point that the author of the piece was a Minster in the Catholic Church. Justice Muralidhar noted that on page six of the article submitted by the ASG the entire discussion was based on the Bible. J. Shah went on to read from the article that 'AIDS was a judgment of God' and noted the the article seemed to be complete propaganda. The ASG retorted by saying how come anything on the other side is accepted and anything on this side is seen as propaganda. J. Shah noted that the ASG should refer to the NACO affidavit on the point. The ASG went on to read from the article titled, 'The health risks of gay sex ' by Dr John Diggs to say, that there were five distinctions between gay and heterosexual relationships. Those differences include: A.Levels of promiscuity B.Physicalhealth C.Mentalhealth D.Lifespan E. Definition of "monogamy" THE ASG went on to read from the article to make the points that there was a high level of promiscuity among gay men with 75% of male homosexuals having more than 100 partners. This according to the ASG would mean that HIV would spread like wildfire. The medical consequence would be the spread of HIV, syphilis etc. He also noted that lesbians are 3-4 times more likely to have risky sex. There was a high incidence of psychological abuse among gay and lesbian people. There was also a high rate of intravenous drug use among lesbian, gay and bisexual people. Long term sexual fidelity is rare in gay relationships. J. Shah responded by asking who was Dr. John Diggs , the author of the article? He made the point that he was a practicing internist and not a doctor. He noted that the Court was interested in scientific opinions not the opinions of religious bodies. He noted that a view of a religious body which viewed them as sinners could not be taken notice of by the Court. The ASG responded by saying that Dr. John Diggs has produced statistics on the serious health consequences of engaging in homosexual sodomy. Homosexual sodomy is an efficient transmitter of STD/HIV and anal intercourse is a serious health hazard. J. Shah by asking who were the traditional values coalition on whose website, the John Diggs article was hosted. He said 'what are his credentials and how do we accept it? On one hand we have NACO and on the other we have Dr. Diggs from America ?' The ASG said that the only reason he cited the study was to show that homosexuality caused a very serious health problem. He went on to read from the study to say that, the sexual activity enjoyed by homosexuals results in bacterial infections, and even cancer. There are activities like golden showers, and insertion of objects into the rectum which cause oral and anal cancer. A study of homosexual practices shows 37% enjoyed sodomitical activities and 23% enjoyed water sports. J. Shah asked by everything on the internet was to be taken as gospel: He noted that they were not taking it and that they were going by the Governments own affidavit. The ASG said that AID's is causing havoc in society. J, Shah noted that the NACO Report had to be countered by scientific material by bodies such as the WHO and not religious bodies. He asked the ASG to get material on what the position of bodies such as the WHO were? The ASG went on to cite another study which also noted the high levels of promiscuity and unhealthy behaviour among the homosexual community. He noted that 29% of homosexuals had 300 partners in a lifetime and 8% had over 300 partners. In New York and San Francisco where gays were concentrated one report suggests that they had even 1000 partners. J. Shah interjected to say that going by the ASG's argument should we then put 20 lakh homosexuals behind bars? He went on to quote from the study by saying that 'homosexuality is death' is really a one sided view of religious bodies. The ASG noted that the figures were based on research by a research scholar. J. Shah said that there were doctors among religious bodies as well and anyway what does the WHO say? J. Shah noted that the key issue was how far can the government intervene in the privacy of a person and whether the state's intervention was correct? The ASG made another submission about the spread of HIV through homosexual sex to which JH. Shah noted that he recently addressed a gathering of 600 widows whose husbands had died of HIV. So it was not only gay partners who suffered from HIV AIDS. THE ASG then went on to cite another report which had the figures HIV is 6 times higher in white men 15 times higher in white women Blacks account for 46% of all infection Blacks are 12% but account for a major part of the infection. J., Shah strongly objected to the study and said that this study seemed to target the black community as spreading HIV/AIDS. J. Muralidhar asked the ASG to show some statistics relevant to India. He went on to ask if the ASG could produce any study to show that this activity increases risk to such an extent that it needs to be criminalized ? "There are two arguments which you have put forward. One is on public morality and the other is on public health and safety. All literature including the NACO affidavit points to the contrary of what you are suggesting in terms of the second argument. NACO is telling us that continued criminalization will result in denial of the right to health of this group." The ASG replied by saying that they are entitled to all health benefits. J. Muralidhar responded by saying that they are not entitled but have a right to health and continued criminalization prevents their exercising this right. This is the argument of the other side, whether Sec 377 prevents a person from exercising his right? The ASG asked whether in the garb of this right whether one can deny the right to health of the rest of society? On being asked to produce statistics from India the ASG noted that the other side went to the US and other places but he was being asked to keep to India? J. Muralidhar noted that for facts and statistics we must first and foremost, go to expert bodies in India,. But law and judgments could go to other jurisdictions. J. Shah asked the ASG to show some scientific material that retaining criminalization would work as a deterrent . The ASG noted that 'this kind of activity, by a man and a woman it spreads. In normal sex, man is required by law to have sex with one person. Now if they are having sex with 100s of persons, 200 , 500 even more, its more likely to transmit disease. Counsel for Naz Foundation intervened by citing a UN AID's policy brief on HIV and Sex between men , which noted that the criminalization and stigmatization of MSM impeded HIV prevention work. J. Shah noted that ' you want to disown the NACO affidavit and say that criminalization is a must. We are trying to say that its not only NACO but UNAIDs as well which is a UN body which is arguing for respecting rights of MSM. J. Muralidhar said that another argument the ASG could make would be to show that decriminalization had led to the spread of HIV/AIDs . J. Shah noted that in both the Dudgeon and the Modinos case the same arguments were advanced. The Court did not see any merit in them. Even within the UN the consensus seems to be that discrimination and stigmatization has not helped. The ASG took the judges to a compilation which showed in which countries homosexuality was decriminalized and in which countries it continued to be an offence. J. Shah noted that the point one could get from the compilation was that all democratic countries are in favour of decriminalization. The ASG then cited from an article titled , 'Why gay marriage is not only wrong but socially destructive.', to make the point that after gay marriage was made legal in the Netherlands, HIV/ STD rates were soaring. J. Shah noted that marriage was a very different issue which was not being discussed here. Then the ASG read an article titled homosexuality and religion with its source being the wikipedia. At which point consul for the petitioners submitted that wikepedia was an unreliable source as anybody could modify the article. The ASG then went on to read and respond to the written arguments of the petitioners. He noted that with respect to Art 14 , Sec 377 did not violate the provision as the law applied to all persons equally. It did not single out certain persons. It applied equally to all classes of persons – whether female or male , with this kind of unnatural thing being prohibited by law. It does not for example state that the provision applies only to women, men above 50 etc. It applies to every citizen uniformly. J. Shah noted that the argument of the petitioners was the over inclusivity of the provision. The Court then rose with the next hearing fixed for the next day, 16.10.08. Mayur Suresh and Arvind Narrain From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 00:38:40 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:38:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Day 8 of Naz Hearings 15.10.08 In-Reply-To: References: <4def3c470810150919x2e08d922ta2993916f0d65c02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810151208u628aabe0q52fa56444e65b909@mail.gmail.com> which apparently cause cancer it seems.... On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Lawrence Liang wrote: > wow, golden showers in the delhi high court , what a joy :) > > > Day eight of the Naz hearings 15.10.08 > > The ASG submitted some additional material to the Court based on which he > made the following submissions : > The ASG continued his submissions by making the point that HIV > transmission > was through sexual contact and as per the study of sexual behavior in the > US > , over 89% of the transmission was due to homosexual behaviour. > J. Shah asked a question about the validity of the article relied upon by > the ASG and made the point that the author of the piece was a Minster in > the Catholic Church. Justice Muralidhar noted that on page six of the > article submitted by the ASG the entire discussion was based on the Bible. > J. Shah went on to read from the article that 'AIDS was a judgment of God' > and noted the the article seemed to be complete propaganda. > > The ASG retorted by saying how come anything on the other side is accepted > and anything on this side is seen as propaganda. > J. Shah noted that the ASG should refer to the NACO affidavit on the point. > The ASG went on to read from the article titled, 'The health risks of gay > sex ' by Dr John Diggs to say, that there were five distinctions between > gay and heterosexual relationships. Those differences include: > A.Levels of promiscuity > B.Physicalhealth > C.Mentalhealth > D.Lifespan > E. Definition of "monogamy" > THE ASG went on to read from the article to make the points that there was > a high level of promiscuity among gay men with 75% of male homosexuals > having more than 100 partners. This according to the ASG would mean that > HIV > would spread like wildfire. The medical consequence would be the spread of > HIV, syphilis etc. He also noted that lesbians are 3-4 times more likely > to > have risky sex. There was a high incidence of psychological abuse among > gay > and lesbian people. There was also a high rate of intravenous drug use > among > lesbian, gay and bisexual people. Long term sexual fidelity is rare in gay > relationships. > J. Shah responded by asking who was Dr. John Diggs , the author of the > article? He made the point that he was a practicing internist and not a > doctor. He noted that the Court was interested in scientific opinions not > the opinions of religious bodies. He noted that a view of a religious body > which viewed them as sinners could not be taken notice of by the Court. > The ASG responded by saying that Dr. John Diggs has produced statistics on > the serious health consequences of engaging in homosexual sodomy. > Homosexual sodomy is an efficient transmitter of STD/HIV and anal > intercourse is a serious health hazard. > J. Shah by asking who were the traditional values coalition on whose > website, the John Diggs article was hosted. He said 'what are his > credentials and how do we accept it? On one hand we have NACO and on the > other we have Dr. Diggs from America ?' > The ASG said that the only reason he cited the study was to show that > homosexuality caused a very serious health problem. He went on to read > from > the study to say that, the sexual activity enjoyed by homosexuals results > in > bacterial infections, and even cancer. There are activities like golden > showers, and insertion of objects into the rectum which cause oral and anal > cancer. A study of homosexual practices shows 37% enjoyed sodomitical > activities and 23% enjoyed water sports. > J. Shah asked by everything on the internet was to be taken as gospel: He > noted that they were not taking it and that they were going by the > Governments own affidavit. > The ASG said that AID's is causing havoc in society. > J, Shah noted that the NACO Report had to be countered by scientific > material by bodies such as the WHO and not religious bodies. He asked the > ASG to get material on what the position of bodies such as the WHO were? > The ASG went on to cite another study which also noted the high levels of > promiscuity and unhealthy behaviour among the homosexual community. He > noted > that 29% of homosexuals had 300 partners in a lifetime and 8% had over 300 > partners. In New York and San Francisco where gays were concentrated one > report suggests that they had even 1000 partners. > J. Shah interjected to say that going by the ASG's argument should we then > put 20 lakh homosexuals behind bars? He went on to quote from the study by > saying that 'homosexuality is death' is really a one sided view of > religious > bodies. > The ASG noted that the figures were based on research by a research > scholar. > > J. Shah said that there were doctors among religious bodies as well and > anyway what does the WHO say? > J. Shah noted that the key issue was how far can the government intervene > in > the privacy of a person and whether the state's intervention was correct? > The ASG made another submission about the spread of HIV through homosexual > sex to which JH. Shah noted that he recently addressed a gathering of 600 > widows whose husbands had died of HIV. So it was not only gay partners who > suffered from HIV AIDS. > THE ASG then went on to cite another report which had the figures > HIV is 6 times higher in white men > 15 times higher in white women > Blacks account for 46% of all infection > Blacks are 12% but account for a major part of the infection. > J., Shah strongly objected to the study and said that this study seemed to > target the black community as spreading HIV/AIDS. > J. Muralidhar asked the ASG to show some statistics relevant to India. He > went on to ask if the ASG could produce any study to show that this > activity increases risk to such an extent that it needs to be criminalized > ? > "There are two arguments which you have put forward. One is on public > morality and the other is on public health and safety. All literature > including the NACO affidavit points to the contrary of what you are > suggesting in terms of the second argument. NACO is telling us that > continued criminalization will result in denial of the right to health of > this group." > The ASG replied by saying that they are entitled to all health benefits. > J. Muralidhar responded by saying that they are not entitled but have a > right to health and continued criminalization prevents their exercising > this > right. This is the argument of the other side, whether Sec 377 prevents a > person from exercising his right? > The ASG asked whether in the garb of this right whether one can deny the > right to health of the rest of society? > On being asked to produce statistics from India the ASG noted that the > other > side went to the US and other places but he was being asked to keep to > India? > J. Muralidhar noted that for facts and statistics we must first and > foremost, go to expert bodies in India,. But law and judgments could go to > other jurisdictions. > J. Shah asked the ASG to show some scientific material that retaining > criminalization would work as a deterrent . > The ASG noted that 'this kind of activity, by a man and a woman it spreads. > In normal sex, man is required by law to have sex with one person. Now if > they are having sex with 100s of persons, 200 , 500 even more, its more > likely to transmit disease. > Counsel for Naz Foundation intervened by citing a UN AID's policy brief on > HIV and Sex between men , which noted that the criminalization and > stigmatization of MSM impeded HIV prevention work. > J. Shah noted that ' you want to disown the NACO affidavit and say that > criminalization is a must. We are trying to say that its not only NACO but > UNAIDs as well which is a UN body which is arguing for respecting rights of > MSM. > J. Muralidhar said that another argument the ASG could make would be to > show > that decriminalization had led to the spread of HIV/AIDs . > J. Shah noted that in both the Dudgeon and the Modinos case the same > arguments were advanced. The Court did not see any merit in them. Even > within the UN the consensus seems to be that discrimination and > stigmatization has not helped. > The ASG took the judges to a compilation which showed in which countries > homosexuality was decriminalized and in which countries it continued to be > an offence. > J. Shah noted that the point one could get from the compilation was that > all > democratic countries are in favour of decriminalization. > The ASG then cited from an article titled , 'Why gay marriage is not only > wrong but socially destructive.', to make the point that after gay marriage > was made legal in the Netherlands, HIV/ STD rates were soaring. > J. Shah noted that marriage was a very different issue which was not being > discussed here. > Then the ASG read an article titled homosexuality and religion with its > source being the wikipedia. > At which point consul for the petitioners submitted that wikepedia was an > unreliable source as anybody could modify the article. > The ASG then went on to read and respond to the written arguments of the > petitioners. He noted that with respect to Art 14 , Sec 377 did not violate > the provision as the law applied to all persons equally. It did not single > out certain persons. It applied equally to all classes of persons – whether > female or male , with this kind of unnatural thing being prohibited by law. > It does not for example state that the provision applies only to women, men > above 50 etc. It applies to every citizen uniformly. > J. Shah noted that the argument of the petitioners was the over inclusivity > of the provision. > The Court then rose with the next hearing fixed for the next day, > 16.10.08. > > Mayur Suresh and Arvind Narrain > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From alice at tank.tv Mon Oct 13 22:17:09 2008 From: alice at tank.tv (Alice O'Reilly) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:47:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] tank.tv: 1st 2008/9 International Call for Submissions Message-ID: <442eb4460810130947l424520fey9634d3c1313c8b50@mail.gmail.com> *tank.tv 1st International Call for Submissions - Solo Shows on www.tank.tv tank.tv is inviting submissions from artists who wish to be considered for two week solo exhibitions on www.tank.tv.* In 2009 tank.tv will be hosting an ambitious series of solo shows from established and emerging artists working with the moving image. We would like to allocate 3 of these shows to artists who respond to a series of three open calls for entries. You must have a body of work consisting of at least 10 moving image pieces that are ready for exhibition and which run no longer than ten minutes (although we are happy to consider excerpts from longer pieces). We will consider all forms of moving image work and welcome submissions from artists working at any stage of their careers, of all nationalities. The first selected artist will have a two week online show early in 2009 and be part of our external events programme which will be toured to galleries and institutions internationally. Deadline: 10th December 2008. Please submit examples of work (accompanied by a submission form, downloadable from www.tank.tv) as Quicktime files or on mini DV to: tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA UK If you have any questions about this opportunity then please get in touch with Alice O'Reilly, alice at tank.tv. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - Alice O'Reilly tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA alice at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: 'The Young and Evil', curated by Stuart Comer. 14th July - 21st September 2008 Book now for tank.tv screenings at Tate Modern. 19 September – Sunday 21 September 2008. Fresh Moves - Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From logos.theword at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 11:51:03 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:51:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Invitation to two performances in Delhi Message-ID: <33bc2ee60810112321p4c70c767he662a575a5988040@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, I'd like to invite you to two upcoming performances at IIT-Delhi: On the 18th, I'd be performing "Somewhere A Country", a solo performance in Spoken Word and "Unword", at the IIT auditorium at half past six in the evening. This features Spoken Word (my own poetry as well as pieces by Dylan Thomas, Anna Akhmatova, Mahmoud Derwish, etc.), movement, and digital imagery by Honey Bajaj, Shilo Shiv Suleiman and others. On the 21st, I am performing Shreds and Patches, my solo, devised Shakespeare piece, also at the IIT auditorium at half past six in the evening. This is a piece which has been in performance over the last year and a half all over the country and tries to look for many Shakespeares - the deeply personal, the political and the universal. Please do come to watch the performances, and do extend the invitation to your friends in Delhi. Both performances are open to all. Warm regards, Arka -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From machleetank at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 03:55:10 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:25:10 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Blank Noise : Step by Step Guide to Unapologetic Walking In-Reply-To: <277f58b70810141519o177d657ajcd508408e292cc88@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70810131223o516eff61yf1779e92843a6b4f@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70810141519o177d657ajcd508408e292cc88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: *on behalf of Blank Noise best wishes Jasmeen * ******************************************** Hello! Our street actions over the last few years have been based on emphasizing small simple scenarios- which can be challenging even though they appear 'normal' and everyday. For instance- should it be hard to just 'stand' on the street as an 'idle' woman? Would you 'dare' try it? Keeping in sync with that trajectory of thought we have published this poster on the Blank Noise Blog. Here's a *Step By Step Guide To Unapologetic Walking * http://blog.blanknoise.org/2008/10/step-by-step-guide-to-unapologetic.html Some of you who have been associated with Blank Noise for a while may have already tried the step by step guide- in that case we invite you to share your experiences from or try it again! We request you to take charge by volunteering to translate the poster in your local language as well. Do email us at blurtblanknoise at gmail dot com to inform us if you're interested. Ofcourse, your response is crucial to this proposal. share your response here https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=pXj9QqBrUiZ5eWN3JPPMhMQ or simply leave it at the comments section on the post. You could also confirm via facebook: http://www.facebook.com/inbox/#/event.php?eid=30359653023 Be an Action Hero! *yours truly*, * Blank Noise Team* BLANK NOISE http://blog.blanknoise.org http://blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com http://blanknoisespectators.blogspot.com http://flickr.com/photos/blanknoisethisplace http://flickr.com/photos/blanknoise -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From chiarapassa at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 19:25:30 2008 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:55:30 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] "Landspace" out now! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends & colleagues, I'm glad to announce "Landspace 01", the first (of a series) interactive video-landscape that will be placed as a site-specific installation in a public space. Thanks & regards, Chiara. "Landspace", by Chiara Passa. Interactive video installation-site-specific, 2008. Music by Netherworld. "Landspace" provides a view into a virtual extension through motion. Various overlayed currents compiled of a range of extreme terrain ebb and swell, transforming the artwork's internal atmosphere through harmonized fluctuations with Landscape's counterpart, an isolationist visual and musical artwork. Constituting it's self through the concept of the new "second nature" of our digital time, the interactive video installation shows a sort of artificial 'natura-naturans' composed of large atmospheres in a state of constant change. The installation projects a virtual and interactive Land-Art, developed to be planned in the wide-open spaces which we inhabit, reiterating synthetic and essential notions of architectural atmosphere. Italiano: Il progetto "Landspace" è costituito da una serie di paesaggi sintetici ed essenziali che si modificano attraverso il suono. Essi sono stati pensati per essere proiettati in ampi spazi aperti proprio con il fine di riprogettare artificialmente l'architettura e l'ambiente circostante. I Landspace sono un'estensione virtuale, uno studio sul concetto della nostra seconda natura, ossia quella che viviamo attraverso il nostro tempo digitale. La video installazione interattiva mostra una sorta di 'natura naturans-artificiale', costituita da ampi spazi sempre in trasformazione; Una Land-Art virtuale e interattiva che ridisegna altre atmosfere in luoghi reali, a ritmo di musica isolazionista. To watch a short: http://www.chiarapassa.it/videoenglish.html -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.net http://twitter.com/jogador Skype: ideasonair _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From surya_rajan21 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 09:32:56 2008 From: surya_rajan21 at yahoo.com (surya upadhyay) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:32:56 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <143729.88060.qm@web94807.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear All, A few comments or you can call it one more addition into Hindu-wadi or intentionally called Hindutva. I pick up the point raised by Dear Lalit on the cessation of considering Tribal as the part of Hinduism but before that Hinduism is briefed: Firstly, the word Hinduism can not bring all the varieties of folk practices into its fold. We all know that it is a British term or if you can sketch little before to their regime, it came from Persians in Bharat i.e. India. It originated on the Indian sub-continent during the Vedic age and flourished during Iron Age. Secondly, Tribal religion is a part of Hinduism. Animism or naturism is not forbidden in Hinduism at all. Vedas and other scriptures delineate several verses that are directly devoted to nature or soul. The tribal religion is also a variety of large number of folk or community ritual practices. It does not mean that those who worship idol of Hanuman are not part of Vedantic tradition or those who believe in reincarnation of soul could not immerse themselves in bhakti. It is all the varieties that make Hinduism beyond a religion. In Popular Hinduism, the nature worship is also well evident. To name a few: Bargadi Puja, or Karvachauth. Thirdly, Hinduism is not a religion of faith in one fellow or his precepts. Rather it is a journey of life, an exploration of real-self, an excavation of ones own reality. since everyone is not so qualified to understand the features of scriptures, so there emerged various forms of worships of Gods and Goddesses. Idolatry has been employed to respond to the questions of those who want to see god [and that we all know, god or anything at its place could not be seen, He could only be experienced]. The emergence of various gods and goddesses is just to make people realize the defining figure of the universe. Fourthly, the Australian Aborigines or Red Indians were also not Christians in that sense because they were also worshipers of nature, spirit or their own clan and family. They were made Christians and elsewhere Tribal communities were converted to Islam. They should also not be counted into all these religions. Also, Christianity or Islam appeared in the last two millennia, and I really wonder; how they increased so swiftly across the world? It means they were either reproducing excessively or converted people. Since reproduction has its limitations then it is sure that they spread across boundaries because they were converting people. Since the advent of Islam in India and the way they have treated Hinduism is uncountable for our Intellectuals. They never look behind at the history. Can they deny the number of people slaughtered in those many centuries? Can they answer to the reason of tax levied on Hindu pilgrimage? I really wonder when I listen or read their secular view. Only Hinduism is targeted, only Hindus are blamed as if Muslims or Christians were always week or marginalized, they never hurt Hindus in the past nor are they doing anything wrong today even. The much celebrated Babri Masjid demolition is documented or discussed here and there and the role of State in it. But it is never discussed when thousands of people were gunned down at Ayodhya just a year before the demolition in the Mulayam Singh Yadav's regime. I am not justifying the demolition of shrine. I am rightly putting it forward the way Hinduism has been treated by the so-called Secular Politicians or Intellectuals. The anthropologists and sociologists have carved up Tribals, Dalits out of Hinduism. It is a very tacit move that resonate with the British Policy of "Divide and Rule". Firstly, they divide these communities which eventually restrict Hindus to intervene in the process of conversion. It naturally excludes Hindus to stop religious conversion. In the garb of helping people, they convert tribal into their fold. If the Christian missionaries or Islamic groups are helping people then they are not going to be objected. For helping people, they need not to convert. They are objected because of their intentions and deeds. Actually, Hinduism is not a religion of increasing the number of people. It does not promote that if you convert this much people into its fold then you will be granted jannat. Here jannat is granted on the basis of your good deeds and karma. Also, the Christianity and Islam in India discriminate the new converts. They are divided on the caste lines, they are never brought into marriage relations, and they are restricted from certain rights and prerogatives that they must enjoy after conversion. For reference see “India Untouched” – a documentary by Mr. Stalin. If our intellectuals are so generous, then why do they not write about the caste system that operates in Indian Christianity or Islam? Does it non-existent in these religions in India? Please refer to the articles on Caste in Christianity and Islam in M.N. Srinivas’ edited book, Caste: Its 20th Century Avatar. I have seen the life of new converts in a village of Basanti block in Sunderbans named Sajinatola. Please go any try to understand the life of Protestant Christians and how they have been internally divided and exploited. The promise of Christian missionaries remains in question after looking life in villages. Also, Bajrang Dal is active only where Christian missionaries are converting people. The other example could be cited from Dang, Gujarat where missionaries have introduced a new phenomenon of worship, garlanding and singing aarti for the Christ. When I explored the reason for such introduction, I was told, “This Hindu god is more potent then Hanuman or Ram.” Another question: why do Christian missionaries help rural poor only? Are there no poor in Urban locales? Why do they convert only low caste Hidnu? If the philosophy is so rich then it should be given to all irrespective of their caste, class, gender and locality. It is really surprising and alarming that people in this country always were blind when it comes to respond to the external threat. For the cessation of caste and its exploitative nature, it should be cured internally i.e. by changing the upper caste Hindus. Dear Lalit, in a nutshell, India has still not emerged out of dependence and this dependence is more enduring than economic or political. At last, I have a question to all the readers who consider themselves as secular. Why should people be converted? And can you, write anything against Madarsa. I have the answer- No. Why? That you know very well its aftermath. If any painter is showing nudity in Durga or kali’s picture and Hidnus are responding to it then it is considered as the lack of sense of aesthetics. On the other hand, if a cartoonist draws or writes a line on Mohammad Sahab, then there is an obvious question: How could any one hurt the religious sentiments of 25% population of the world? It operates in the same way: that if you have many children and if one of them dies then you should not cry because you have enough children while those who have only one, they should be taken care in every possible way and even coughing or sneezing could alert the parents. Surya =================================================== --- On Wed, 15/10/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > From: Lalit Ambardar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in, reader-list at sarai.net, "Rohan DSouza" > Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 10:55 PM > Dear Sadia, > Are you suggesting that the Hindus are persecuting? > Hope you are'nt justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu > Pandits in Kashmir? > Let us condemn violence both physical as well as mental > & not be selective about it. > Regards all > LA > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:13:35 +0530> From: > sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> To: reader-list at sarai.net; > virtuallyme at gmail.com; lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > > Dear Lalit> If, according to you "Hindus have > welcome all persecuted communities from world over", > why are Hindu-persecuted communities taking refuge today in > the forests and relief camps in Orissa, Gujarat, Karnataka, > Maharashtra, Andhra?> > SF> > > --- On Tue, > 14/10/08, Rohan DSouza > wrote:> > > From: Rohan DSouza > > > Subject: > [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > To: > reader-list at sarai.net> > Date: Tuesday, 14 October, > 2008, 9:42 AM> > Dear All,> > > > Am > forwarding an interesting article which explores the> > > concept of Hindutva> > and tries to point out the > differences between it and> > Hinduism. The author> > > puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a > political> > project, grounded in> > the > principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating> > > and maintaining> > an authoritarian state, with > suppressive control over human> > beings.> > > > > He also brings out the difference between the > inclusive,> > open approach of> > Hinduism and > the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva.> > > > > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there > have> > been many> > discussions around similar > issues.> > > > Regards,> > Rohan> > > ________________________________________________________________________> > > > ________________________________________________________________________> > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L.> > > D'Souza.> > Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, > Ahmedabad"> > sjprashant at gmail.com> > Date: > Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT))> > > > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA> > - Averthanus L. > D'Souza.> > > > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a > former Secretary of the Vishwa> > Hindu Parishad> > > (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus > are> > the Muslims, the> > Christians, the Hindu > intellectuals and the media." > > It is very > significant> > as well as intriguing that Vispute > included the Hindu> > intellectuals and the> > > media in his category of the "enemies" of > Hindus.> > It does not take great> > > intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this> > > statement by a very> > prominent Hindutva > promoter. It is quite obvious that > > Hindu > intellectuals> > (nor any other reasonably educated > person for that matter)> > will refuse to> > > swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by> > > the Hindutva> > propagandists to arouse anger and > hatred against Muslims> > and Christians,> > for > which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person> > > (including Hindu> > "intellectuals") will > see through the falsity of> > the arguments which the > VHP> > advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely > because> > the position of the> > Hindutva > campaign is irrational and untenable that the> > > propagandists prefer> > to recruit uneducated and > unthinking followers who can> > easily be > manipulated> > to believe anything that is fed to > them. The Bajrang> > Dal, which is> > considered > to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of> > the > VHP is a good> > example of uneducated youth, with > more passion than reason,> > who are willing> > > to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are> > > conditioned to> > believe that heroism consists > in slaughtering helpless> > women and children,> > > and burning innocent people alive. In this respect > the> > Bajrang Dal is no> > different from the > Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the> > youth brigades > of the> > other fascist movements in Europe who were > used to> > terrorize the population> > into > submission. With their saffron head-bands and> > > wielding 'trishuls',> > and screaming > full-throated war-cries, these rampaging> > gangs can > cause> > terror anywhere - which is precisely what > they are trained> > to do. They are> > > 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of > the> > morality of the orders or> > the > consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent> > > RSS leader,> > personally met the Italian fascist > leader Benito Mussolini> > in Rome on 19> > > March, 1931, visited some important military schools and> > > educational> > institutions and became acquainted > with the Balilla and the> > Avanguardisti> > > organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the> > > keystone of the fascist> > system is the > 'indoctrination' of youths, rather> > than > education. This is> > the foundation on which the > Bajrang Dal is built.> > > > While cultivated > ignorance of the youth is one facet which> > is > promoted by> > the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate > falsification of> > current facts as well> > as > of History is another method of indoctrination used. > > > Lal .Krishna.> > Advani closely studied the > system of propaganda developed> > by Nazi Germany.> > > He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action> > > developed two other> > distinctive > characteristics: firstly, adoption of> > propaganda as > a key> > instrument of State policy; and secondly, the > systematic > > development of a> > demonology to > keep the masses in a mood of perpetual> > tension and > hysteria."> > (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's > Scrap Book" ) > > Advani and his colleagues > have> > tried hard to refine and improve upon the> > > propaganda-cum-terror machinery> > which was > developed by Nazi Germany, specially by> > > Hitler's most trusted> > lieutenant Paul Joseph > Goebbels, whose name has now become> > synonymous > with> > high-voltage mendacious propaganda.> > > > > One of the more prominent falsifications which the > Hindutva> > protagonists are> > propagating is > that Hindutva is an integral part of> > Hinduism. No > sensible> > person, (including thinking Hindus) > accepts this claim. > > In fact, the vast> > > majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of> > > Hinduism with> > Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly > respected religion of> > long standing. It> > is > recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one> > > of the oldest> > religions in human history. It > outlived the ancient> > religions of the> > > Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks > and> > the Egyptians.> > Hinduism has always > been associated with> > 'sanatana' which > denotes> > timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has > never been> > associated with any> > particular > political system; nor has it ever shown a> > > preference for any> > particular cultural context. In > the broadest sense of the> > word, Hinduism> > > is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of> > > rituals, beliefs, popular> > practices and > dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita,> > Lord > Krishna> > tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path > men come to me, I> > accept them through> > that > very path."> > > > In sharp contrast to > Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is> > a clearly> > > distinguishable "political" ideology which > is> > straining to concoct a> > > "national" identity based on the Hindu > religion.> > Hindutva is a clearly> > fascist > political movement, which has drawn much of its> > > inspiration from> > European fascism and German > Nazism. The most prominent> > protagonists of> > > Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav> > > Sadashiv> > Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama > Prasad Mukherjee (1901 -> > 1953) among> > > others, have derived their ideologies from European > fascism> > and modified it> > to suit Indian > conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the> > > "International> > General Secretary" of the > VHP explicitly says that> > India is a Hindu > Rashtra> > since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a > religion but a> > synonym for Hindu> > > nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that> > > the rejection of> > the claims of Hindutva cannot > be construed as being> > anti-Hinduism. In> > > fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of> > > Hinduism by the Hindutva> > brigade that the Hindu > intellectuals have rejected it. > > The Hindutva> > > fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between> > > Hindutva and Hinduism.> > They have been able to > increase their popularity because> > they repeat > the> > (false) propaganda that the promotion of > Hindutva is the> > promotion of> > Hinduism> > > > > There are many distortions which the Hindutva > fascists have> > wrought on> > Hinduism. Suffice > it to indicate only a few blatant> > contradictions > in> > their propaganda.> > > > One: > Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu> > > "Rashtra". The> > secularism enshrined in > the Indian Constitution is> > violently rejected by > the> > Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they > have made a> > conscious and> > vigorous effort > to create an "international" > > Hindu > community. The> > formation of the "World Hindu > Council" and the> > creation of the post of > an> > "International General Secretary" of > the VHP is a> > clear contradiction of the> > > claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of > creating> > a Hindu> > "nation." This > contradiction is obvious to> > every sane person, > except, of> > course, the rabid Hindutva > ideologues.> > > > The claim made by Pravin > Togadia that Hindutva as a> > "Rashtra" has > existed> > since millennia is patently false. By all > historical> > accounts, whether in> > ancient or > mediaeval India, there were several> > > "kingdoms" or "empires."> > Among > the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan> > > empire of> > Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 > B.C. to 184 B.C.) and> > the Asokan empire> > > (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other> > > lesser kingdoms like> > those of Kushana. In the > south there were the numerous> > kingdoms of> > > Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan> > > dynasty and the> > Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to > 1567 A.D.) and the better> > known Maratha> > > Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the> > > course of history, all> > these kingdoms were in > conflict with one or another with a> > view to > expand> > their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had > been taken> > away by force.> > There was never > a "nation" called India. Even> > after the > gaining of> > political independence from Britain in > 1947, it was left> > to Sardar> > Vallabhbhai > Patel to consolidate the various major and> > minor > kingdoms into a> > unified Nation. It is indisputable > that it was under> > Pandit Jawaharlal> > Nehru > and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called> > > "Princely States" were> > abolished and > integrated into the State of India, which,> > for the > first time> > in its entire history adopted a > Constitution which was to> > govern the> > > "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim> > > that India was always a Hindu> > > "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it > is> > still seeking to "create"> > the > Hindu Rashtra of its dream.> > > > Two: the VHP > claims that people who profess and practice> > other > religions> > cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This > is in stark> > contradiction to the> > repeated > statements made by the Hindutva leaders that> > > Hindutva is a> > "secular" concept. In fact, > they claim that they> > are secular precisely> > > because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being> > > "pseudo-secular."> > They continue to > trumpet this obvious contradiction that> > only Hindus > are> > secular and the followers of all other > religions are not> > secular. Yet,> > they also > claim that Hindutva is a "composite"> > > culture which embraces a> > variety of religions, > cults, languages and ethnic cultures.> > The > Hindutva> > ideologues have never been able to > reconcile this glaring> > contradiction in> > > their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other > > > ethnic cultures, why is it> > that they are > systematically forcing tribals (who are not,> > and > never have> > been, Hindu) to "convert" to > Hinduism? On the> > one hand they have> > > sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion"> > > legislation in many States;> > because they are > ostensibly opposed to conversions by> > force, fraud > or> > inducements; yet on the other hand, they > themselves are> > forcibly> > > "converting" tribals, members of scheduled > castes> > and followers of other> > religions. > They offer the lame and unconvincing argument> > that > they are only> > bringing back these people to the > Hindu fold. They have> > called this> > movement > a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the> > > tribals have never been> > Hindu. They have their own > culture, religion and social> > practices. > "Ghar> > vapasi" in their case simply does > not make any sense.> > Former Indian Prime> > > Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that> > > "ultimately what they are> > aiming at is > authoritarian rule. Then not only will the> > > minorities be> > targeted, but also those who do not > agree with them. You> > will be declared an> > > anti-national and treated thus."> > > > One > of the more prominent characteristics of any> > > dictatorial political> > movement is the systematic > creation of confusion in the> > minds of the> > > citizens so that they can never be sure of what the > truth> > is. This is done> > in two ways. One is > to spread rumours through the cadres> > of > grassroots> > level workers, and another is to > simultaneously issue> > "official" > statements> > "clarifying" the official > position on any> > particular issue. This is a > very> > subtle psychological game which is being > played by the top> > leadership of the> > > Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and> > > not fall into the> > trap which is deliberately > created by the Hindutva> > ideologues. A glaringly> > > example of this "double-speak" is the fact > that> > the Bajrang Dal leaders in> > Karnataka > have openly stated on TV channels that they are> > > responsible for> > the attacks against Christian > churches, institutions and> > personnel. At the> > > same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the > VHP> > leadership insist> > that the Bajrang Dal > had nothing to do with the attacks.> > > > There > are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal> > > of the Sangh> > Parivar to be treated at length > in a brief essay, but this> > short analysis> > > will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions:> > > > > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu > Solidarity.> > > > The entire Hindutva movement > is grounded on the principle> > that India is a> > > Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights > of> > citizenship in India.> > In this view, > Muslims and Christians, in particular, but> > also > Jews,> > Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as > non-Indian. > > Each time a violent> > attack is > carried out against Muslims or Christians, the> > > Bajrang Dal> > terrorists shout that the Muslims and > Christians should> > either become Hindus> > or > leave the country. Islam and Christianity are> > > considered to be> > "impositions" by foreign > Muslim conquerors or by> > Western Christian> > > missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S.> > > Golwalkar are very> > explicit about this. > According to them, non-Hindus cannot> > enjoy rights > of> > citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned > that their> > continued> > presence in India is > entirely dependent on the> > "goodwill" of > the Hindus and> > the Christians are > "advised" to form an Indian> > Church under > the complete> > control of the Indian Government, > similar to the National> > Church in China.> > > The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only> > > those who sever> > their links with any > international community and become> > entirely Hindu > will> > be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India.> > > > > The stark contradiction in this position is > the fact that> > Hindutva is Not> > confined to > the geographical territory of India; it is> > sought > to be made an> > international religion. Ever since > the famous Parliament> > of Religions was> > > addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the> > > "missionary" dimension of> > Hinduism was > begun with the formation of the Vedanta> > Society in > 1893 in New> > York. Today there are Hindu > "missions" all> > over the world, in the > U.S.A.,> > in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the > West Indies, and> > in South Africa.> > The > claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a> > > Hindu "Rashtra," is,> > therefore, patently > false. The comparison with the> > expansionist > movement> > of Nazi Germany is too striking to be > missed. First it> > started with the> > > unification of German speaking countries; then it was> > > extended to include> > all people of Aryan ethnic > stock. Since racial> > characteristics could not > be> > "assimilated" the Nazis began a > systematic> > extermination, first of the> > > Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. > > > The Hindutva claim to> > form a Hindu > Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud> > > perpetrated by the> > Hindutva ideologues. From a > close examination of the> > literature available,> > > it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to > establish a> > theocratic Hindu> > State in > India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of> > > neighbouring> > Pakistan.> > > > Tolerance > v/s xenophobia.> > > > Another myth which has > been created by the Hindutva> > protagonists is > the> > claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and > is based on> > secular values.> > This is far > from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly> > intolerant > movement> > which thrives on spreading hatred and fear > among people. > > In fact it is so> > intolerant > that it seeks to re-write history, which,> > according > to it, has> > been written by > "pseudo-secularists." Its> > distortion of > history is so> > blatant that it has even created the > myth that Asoka and> > Chandragupta> > Maurya > were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification> > > of History. All> > reliable sources tell us that Asoka > ruled over a Buddhist> > kingdom, and that> > > Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the > Jaina> > tradition. The> > Hindutva view of > history is not based on scientific> > research, but on > an> > imagination running wild. The Hindutva> > > "historians" are worthy disciples> > of > Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and> > > over again, people> > will soon begin to accept > it as the truth.> > > > If Hindutva is a > tolerant political ideology which respects> > secular > values,> > why is it that in all the States which are > ruled by the BJP> > there is a> > systematic > attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is> > it > that tribals,> > who are not, and never have been, > Hindu are being> > terrorized into converting> > > to Hinduism?> > > > The Hindutva fanatics claim > that they are against> > conversion by force, > fraud> > or by material inducements. In fact they > accuse the> > Christians of having> > converted > Hindus by offering such material inducements. > > Yet, > the duplicity> > of their claims is starkly evident in > the fact that> > wherever they have> > attacked > the Christians, independent Commissions of> > Enquiry > have not been> > able to confirm a single case of > conversion by the use of> > fraud, force or> > > material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear> > > about such> > conversions. If the Hindutva > terrorists have any evidence> > of such> > > conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. > > > Instead, they resort to> > violence and terror against > helpless, innocent and weak> > communities. They> > > themselves use force to (re)convert people.> > > > > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations > of> > falsehood, force and> > terror. In times > of natural calamities, like the> > earthquake in > Gujarat,> > they prevented anyone else from assisting > the affected> > people. They sought> > exclusive > rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this> > > aid in a highly> > reprehensible manner. Muslim > victims were carefully and> > deliberately> > > excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that> > > they swore to> > remain or to become Hindu. There > is voluminous evidence> > of such> > > discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And> > > these very people> > claim that Hindutva is a > humanitarian and generous> > movement.> > > > > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the > Hindutva> > movement. They> > should examine all > their claims critically; and most of> > all, > citizens> > should not be beguiled into believing that > the Hindutva> > movement has any> > redeeming > features. It is an unmitigated evil.> > > > The > battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all> > > faiths, varieties of> > cultures and languages, are > facing a grave threat to the> > secular,> > > democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We> > > need to join> > forces to defeat the evil forces > of fascism and> > authoritarianism. The> > fight > is not between Hinduism and other religions. The > > > fight is really> > between secularism and democracy, > on the one hand, and> > fascism on the other.> > > > > Averthanus L. D'Souza,> > D-13, La > Marvel Colony,> > Dona Paula, Goa 403 004.> > > Tel: 2453628> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: send an email to> > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject> > header.> > To unsubscribe:> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive:> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get > yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________________________________ > Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From logos.theword at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 09:41:21 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:41:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Invitation to two performances in Delhi Message-ID: <33bc2ee60810152111m74edf874if6ef5f57a5c61f65@mail.gmail.com> Correction - 'Somewhere A Country', the Spoken Word performance, is on the 18th, at 18:30, at Anandgram, Sanskriti Kendra, Meherauli-Gurgaon Road, Ayanagar, And not as previously mentioned. Apologies for the error. 'Shreds and Patches', the solo Shakespeare performance, is at the IIT auditorium on the 21st at 18:30, as previously mentioned. Both performances are non-ticketed and open to all. Warm regards, Arka ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:51:03 +0530 From: "Logos Theatre" Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Invitation to two performances in Delhi To: announcements at sarai.net Message-ID: <33bc2ee60810112321p4c70c767he662a575a5988040 at mail.gmail.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hello everyone, > I'd like to invite you to two upcoming performances at IIT-Delhi: > > On the 18th, I'd be performing "Somewhere A Country", a solo performance in > Spoken Word and "Unword", at the IIT auditorium at half past six in the > evening. This features Spoken Word (my own poetry as well as pieces by > Dylan > Thomas, Anna Akhmatova, Mahmoud Derwish, etc.), movement, and digital > imagery by Honey Bajaj, Shilo Shiv Suleiman and others. > > On the 21st, I am performing Shreds and Patches, my solo, devised > Shakespeare piece, also at the IIT auditorium at half past six in the > evening. This is a piece which has been in performance over the last year > and a half all over the country and tries to look for many Shakespeares - > the deeply personal, the political and the universal. > > Please do come to watch the performances, and do extend the invitation to > your friends in Delhi. Both performances are open to all. > > Warm regards, > Arka > > -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Thu Oct 16 09:58:37 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (Fatima) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:58:37 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <84879.2144.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Lalit Ethnic cleansing of Hindu pandits in Kashmir certainly needs to be condemned - no body is justifying that. I never claimed that Kashmiri Muslims or Muslims in general or Arabs welcome everyone in their fold. It is you made the claim that "Hindus have always welcomed persecuted communities from the entire world". So why are they persecuting their fellow Indians now in Kandhamal? F --- On Wed, 15/10/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > From: Lalit Ambardar > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in, reader-list at sarai.net, "Rohan DSouza" > Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 10:55 PM > Dear Sadia, > Are you suggesting that the Hindus are persecuting? > Hope you are'nt justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu > Pandits in Kashmir? > Let us condemn violence both physical as well as mental > & not be selective about it. > Regards all > LA > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:13:35 +0530> From: > sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> To: reader-list at sarai.net; > virtuallyme at gmail.com; lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > > Dear Lalit> If, according to you "Hindus have > welcome all persecuted communities from world over", > why are Hindu-persecuted communities taking refuge today in > the forests and relief camps in Orissa, Gujarat, Karnataka, > Maharashtra, Andhra?> > SF> > > --- On Tue, > 14/10/08, Rohan DSouza > wrote:> > > From: Rohan DSouza > > > Subject: > [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > To: > reader-list at sarai.net> > Date: Tuesday, 14 October, > 2008, 9:42 AM> > Dear All,> > > > Am > forwarding an interesting article which explores the> > > concept of Hindutva> > and tries to point out the > differences between it and> > Hinduism. The author> > > puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a > political> > project, grounded in> > the > principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating> > > and maintaining> > an authoritarian state, with > suppressive control over human> > beings.> > > > > He also brings out the difference between the > inclusive,> > open approach of> > Hinduism and > the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva.> > > > > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there > have> > been many> > discussions around similar > issues.> > > > Regards,> > Rohan> > > ________________________________________________________________________> > > > ________________________________________________________________________> > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L.> > > D'Souza.> > Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, > Ahmedabad"> > sjprashant at gmail.com> > Date: > Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT))> > > > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA> > - Averthanus L. > D'Souza.> > > > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a > former Secretary of the Vishwa> > Hindu Parishad> > > (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus > are> > the Muslims, the> > Christians, the Hindu > intellectuals and the media." > > It is very > significant> > as well as intriguing that Vispute > included the Hindu> > intellectuals and the> > > media in his category of the "enemies" of > Hindus.> > It does not take great> > > intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this> > > statement by a very> > prominent Hindutva > promoter. It is quite obvious that > > Hindu > intellectuals> > (nor any other reasonably educated > person for that matter)> > will refuse to> > > swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by> > > the Hindutva> > propagandists to arouse anger and > hatred against Muslims> > and Christians,> > for > which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person> > > (including Hindu> > "intellectuals") will > see through the falsity of> > the arguments which the > VHP> > advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely > because> > the position of the> > Hindutva > campaign is irrational and untenable that the> > > propagandists prefer> > to recruit uneducated and > unthinking followers who can> > easily be > manipulated> > to believe anything that is fed to > them. The Bajrang> > Dal, which is> > considered > to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of> > the > VHP is a good> > example of uneducated youth, with > more passion than reason,> > who are willing> > > to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are> > > conditioned to> > believe that heroism consists > in slaughtering helpless> > women and children,> > > and burning innocent people alive. In this respect > the> > Bajrang Dal is no> > different from the > Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the> > youth brigades > of the> > other fascist movements in Europe who were > used to> > terrorize the population> > into > submission. With their saffron head-bands and> > > wielding 'trishuls',> > and screaming > full-throated war-cries, these rampaging> > gangs can > cause> > terror anywhere - which is precisely what > they are trained> > to do. They are> > > 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of > the> > morality of the orders or> > the > consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent> > > RSS leader,> > personally met the Italian fascist > leader Benito Mussolini> > in Rome on 19> > > March, 1931, visited some important military schools and> > > educational> > institutions and became acquainted > with the Balilla and the> > Avanguardisti> > > organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the> > > keystone of the fascist> > system is the > 'indoctrination' of youths, rather> > than > education. This is> > the foundation on which the > Bajrang Dal is built.> > > > While cultivated > ignorance of the youth is one facet which> > is > promoted by> > the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate > falsification of> > current facts as well> > as > of History is another method of indoctrination used. > > > Lal .Krishna.> > Advani closely studied the > system of propaganda developed> > by Nazi Germany.> > > He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action> > > developed two other> > distinctive > characteristics: firstly, adoption of> > propaganda as > a key> > instrument of State policy; and secondly, the > systematic > > development of a> > demonology to > keep the masses in a mood of perpetual> > tension and > hysteria."> > (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's > Scrap Book" ) > > Advani and his colleagues > have> > tried hard to refine and improve upon the> > > propaganda-cum-terror machinery> > which was > developed by Nazi Germany,specially by> > > Hitler's most trusted> > lieutenant Paul Joseph > Goebbels, whose name has now become> > synonymous > with> > high-voltage mendacious propaganda.> > > > > One of the more prominent falsifications which the > Hindutva> > protagonists are> > propagating is > that Hindutva is an integral part of> > Hinduism. No > sensible> > person, (including thinking Hindus) > accepts this claim. > > In fact, the vast> > > majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of> > > Hinduism with> > Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly > respected religion of> > long standing. It> > is > recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one> > > of the oldest> > religions in human history. It > outlived the ancient> > religions of the> > > Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks > and> > the Egyptians.> > Hinduism has always > been associated with> > 'sanatana' which > denotes> > timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has > never been> > associated with any> > particular > political system; nor has it ever shown a> > > preference for any> > particular cultural context. In > the broadest sense of the> > word, Hinduism> > > is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of> > > rituals, beliefs, popular> > practices and > dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita,> > Lord > Krishna> > tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path > men come to me, I> > accept them through> > that > very path."> > > > In sharp contrast to > Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is> > a clearly> > > distinguishable "political" ideology which > is> > straining to concoct a> > > "national" identity based on the Hindu > religion.> > Hindutva is a clearly> > fascist > political movement, which has drawn much of its> > > inspiration from> > European fascism and German > Nazism. The most prominent> > protagonists of> > > Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav> > > Sadashiv> > Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama > Prasad Mukherjee (1901 -> > 1953) among> > > others, have derived their ideologies from European > fascism> > and modified it> > to suit Indian > conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the> > > "International> > General Secretary" of the > VHP explicitly says that> > India is a Hindu > Rashtra> > since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a > religion but a> > synonym for Hindu> > > nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that> > > the rejection of> > the claims of Hindutva cannot > be construed as being> > anti-Hinduism. In> > > fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of> > > Hinduism by the Hindutva> > brigade that the Hindu > intellectuals have rejected it. > > The Hindutva> > > fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between> > > Hindutva and Hinduism.> > They have been able to > increase their popularity because> > they repeat > the> > (false) propaganda that the promotion of > Hindutva is the> > promotion of> > Hinduism> > > > > There are many distortions which the Hindutva > fascists have> > wrought on> > Hinduism. Suffice > it to indicate only a few blatant> > contradictions > in> > their propaganda.> > > > One: > Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu> > > "Rashtra". The> > secularism enshrined in > the Indian Constitution is> > violently rejected by > the> > Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they > have made a> > conscious and> > vigorous effort > to create an "international" > > Hindu > community. The> > formation of the "World Hindu > Council" and the> > creation of the post of > an> > "International General Secretary" of > the VHP is a> > clear contradiction of the> > > claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of > creating> > a Hindu> > "nation." This > contradiction is obvious to> > every sane person, > except, of> > course, the rabid Hindutva > ideologues.> > > > The claim made by Pravin > Togadia that Hindutva as a> > "Rashtra" has > existed> > since millennia is patently false. By all > historical> > accounts, whether in> > ancient or > mediaeval India, there were several> > > "kingdoms" or "empires."> > Among > the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan> > > empire of> > Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 > B.C. to 184 B.C.) and> > the Asokan empire> > > (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other> > > lesser kingdoms like> > those of Kushana. In the > south there were the numerous> > kingdoms of> > > Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan> > > dynasty and the> > Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to > 1567 A.D.) and the better> > known Maratha> > > Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the> > > course of history, all> > these kingdoms were in > conflict with one or another with a> > view to > expand> > their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had > been taken> > away by force.> > There was never > a "nation" called India. Even> > after the > gaining of> > political independence from Britain in > 1947, it was left> > to Sardar> > Vallabhbhai > Patel to consolidate the various major and> > minor > kingdoms into a> > unified Nation. It is indisputable > that it was under> > Pandit Jawaharlal> > Nehru > and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called> > > "Princely States" were> > abolished and > integrated into the State of India, which,> > for the > first time> > in its entire history adopted a > Constitution which was to> > govern the> > > "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim> > > that India was always a Hindu> > > "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it > is> > still seeking to "create"> > the > Hindu Rashtra of its dream.> > > > Two: the VHP > claims that people who profess and practice> > other > religions> > cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This > is in stark> > contradiction to the> > repeated > statements made by the Hindutva leaders that> > > Hindutva is a> > "secular" concept. In fact, > they claim that they> > are secular precisely> > > because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being> > > "pseudo-secular."> > They continue to > trumpet this obvious contradiction that> > only Hindus > are> > secular and the followers of all other > religions are not> > secular. Yet,> > they also > claim that Hindutva is a "composite"> > > culture which embraces a> > variety of religions, > cults, languages and ethnic cultures.> > The > Hindutva> > ideologues have never been able to > reconcile this glaring> > contradiction in> > > their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other > > > ethnic cultures, why is it> > that they are > systematically forcing tribals (who are not,> > and > never have> > been, Hindu) to "convert" to > Hinduism? On the> > one hand they have> > > sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion"> > > legislation in many States;> > because they are > ostensibly opposed to conversions by> > force, fraud > or> > inducements; yet on the other hand, they > themselves are> > forcibly> > > "converting" tribals, members of scheduled > castes> > and followers of other> > religions. > They offer the lame and unconvincing argument> > that > they are only> > bringing back these people to the > Hindu fold. They have> > called this> > movement > a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the> > > tribals have never been> > Hindu. They have their own > culture, religion and social> > practices. > "Ghar> > vapasi" in their case simply does > not make any sense.> > Former Indian Prime> > > Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that> > > "ultimately what they are> > aiming at is > authoritarian rule. Then not only will the> > > minorities be> > targeted, but also those who do not > agree with them. You> > will be declared an> > > anti-national and treated thus."> > > > One > of the more prominent characteristics of any> > > dictatorial political> > movement is the systematic > creation of confusion in the> > minds of the> > > citizens so that they can never be sure of what the > truth> > is. This is done> > in two ways. One is > to spread rumours through the cadres> > of > grassroots> > level workers, and another is to > simultaneously issue> > "official" > statements> > "clarifying" the official > position on any> > particular issue. This is a > very> > subtle psychological game which is being > played by the top> > leadership of the> > > Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and> > > not fall into the> > trap which is deliberately > created by the Hindutva> > ideologues. A glaringly> > > example of this "double-speak" is the fact > that> > the Bajrang Dal leaders in> > Karnataka > have openly stated on TV channels that they are> > > responsible for> > the attacks against Christian > churches, institutions and> > personnel. At the> > > same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the > VHP> > leadership insist> > that the Bajrang Dal > had nothing to do with the attacks.> > > > There > are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal> > > of the Sangh> > Parivar to be treated at length > in a brief essay, but this> > short analysis> > > will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions:> > > > > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu > Solidarity.> > > > The entire Hindutva movement > is grounded on the principle> > that India is a> > > Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights > of> > citizenship in India.> > In this view, > Muslims and Christians, in particular, but> > also > Jews,> > Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as > non-Indian. > > Each time a violent> > attack is > carried out against Muslims or Christians, the> > > Bajrang Dal> > terrorists shout that the Muslims and > Christians should> > either become Hindus> > or > leave the country. Islam and Christianity are> > > considered to be> > "impositions" by foreign > Muslim conquerors or by> > Western Christian> > > missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S.> > > Golwalkar are very> > explicit about this. > According to them, non-Hindus cannot> > enjoy rights > of> > citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned > that their> > continued> > presence in India is > entirely dependent on the> > "goodwill" of > the Hindus and> > the Christians are > "advised" to form an Indian> > Church under > the complete> > control of the Indian Government, > similar to the National> > Church in China.> > > The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only> > > those who sever> > their links with any > international community and become> > entirely Hindu > will> > be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India.> > > > > The stark contradiction in this position is > the fact that> > Hindutva is Not> > confined to > the geographical territory of India; it is> > sought > to be made an> > international religion. Ever since > the famous Parliament> > of Religions was> > > addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the> > > "missionary" dimension of> > Hinduism was > begun with the formation of the Vedanta> > Society in > 1893 in New> > York. Today there are Hindu > "missions" all> > over the world, in the > U.S.A.,> > in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the > West Indies, and> > in South Africa.> > The > claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a> > > Hindu "Rashtra," is,> > therefore, patently > false. The comparison with the> > expansionist > movement> > of Nazi Germany is too striking to be > missed. First it> > started with the> > > unification of German speaking countries; then it was> > > extended to include> > all people of Aryan ethnic > stock. Since racial> > characteristics could not > be> > "assimilated" the Nazis began a > systematic> > extermination, first of the> > > Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. > > > The Hindutva claim to> > form a Hindu > Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud> > > perpetrated by the> > Hindutva ideologues. From a > close examination of the> > literature available,> > > it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to > establish a> > theocratic Hindu> > State in > India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of> > > neighbouring> > Pakistan.> > > > Tolerance > v/s xenophobia.> > > > Another myth which has > been created by the Hindutva> > protagonists is > the> > claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and > is based on> > secular values.> > This is far > from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly> > intolerant > movement> > which thrives on spreading hatred and fear > among people. > > In fact it is so> > intolerant > that it seeks to re-write history, which,> > according > to it, has> > been written by > "pseudo-secularists." Its> > distortion of > history is so> > blatant that it has even created the > myth that Asoka and> > Chandragupta> > Maurya > were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification> > > of History. All> > reliable sources tell us that Asoka > ruled over a Buddhist> > kingdom, and that> > > Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the > Jaina> > tradition. The> > Hindutva view of > history is not based on scientific> > research, but on > an> > imagination running wild. The Hindutva> > > "historians" are worthy disciples> > of > Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and> > > over again, people> > will soon begin to accept > it as the truth.> > > > If Hindutva is a > tolerant political ideology which respects> > secular > values,> > why is it that in all the States which are > ruled by the BJP> > there is a> > systematic > attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is> > it > that tribals,> > who are not, and never have been, > Hindu are being> > terrorized into converting> > > to Hinduism?> > > > The Hindutva fanatics claim > that they are against> > conversion by force, > fraud> > or by material inducements. In fact they > accuse the> > Christians of having> > converted > Hindus by offering such material inducements. > > Yet, > the duplicity> > of their claims is starkly evident in > the fact that> > wherever they have> > attacked > the Christians, independent Commissions of> > Enquiry > have not been> > able to confirm a single case of > conversion by the use of> > fraud, force or> > > material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear> > > about such> > conversions. If the Hindutva > terrorists have any evidence> > of such> > > conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. > > > Instead, they resort to> > violence and terror against > helpless, innocent and weak> > communities. They> > > themselves use force to (re)convert people.> > > > > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations > of> > falsehood, force and> > terror. In times > of natural calamities, like the> > earthquake in > Gujarat,> > they prevented anyone else from assisting > the affected> > people. They sought> > exclusive > rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this> > > aid in a highly> > reprehensible manner. Muslim > victims were carefully and> > deliberately> > > excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that> > > they swore to> > remain or to become Hindu. There > is voluminous evidence> > of such> > > discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And> > > these very people> > claim that Hindutva is a > humanitarian and generous> > movement.> > > > > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the > Hindutva> > movement. They> > should examine all > their claims critically; and most of> > all, > citizens> > should not be beguiled into believing that > the Hindutva> > movement has any> > redeeming > features. It is an unmitigated evil.> > > > The > battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all> > > faiths, varieties of> > cultures and languages, are > facing a grave threat to the> > secular,> > > democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We> > > need to join> > forces to defeat the evil forces > of fascism and> > authoritarianism. The> > fight > is not between Hinduism and other religions. The > > > fight is really> > between secularism and democracy, > on the one hand, and> > fascism on the other.> > > > > Averthanus L. D'Souza,> > D-13, La > Marvel Colony,> > Dona Paula, Goa 403 004.> > > Tel: 2453628> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: send an email to> > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject> > header.> > To unsubscribe:> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive:> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get > yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________________________________ > Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From mrsg at vsnl.com Thu Oct 16 11:11:26 2008 From: mrsg at vsnl.com (MRSG) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:11:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation for Exhibition Message-ID: <005e01c92f51$d5dbfb70$0201a8c0@MRAY> You are all cordially invited to the Exhibition of Paintings of Amlan Ray and Samirendra Ray 18-24 October 2008 at Muktadhara, Banga Sanskriti Bhavan, 18 Bhai Veer Singh Marg, Gole Market, New Delhi Amlan with his paintings immersed in human forms and Samirendra with his abstract touches will expect your presence. M Ray From patrice at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 16 13:00:13 2008 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:30:13 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] fwd from Denmark: Shut Down the Camp - civil disobedience against the racist, dehumanisng asylum system] Message-ID: <20081016073013.GF60624@xs4all.nl> bwo Nettime, with usual aps for X-posting. Denmark is the somewat forgotten (very) naughty boy in the Fortress Europe School... This is a timely reminder of what actually plays out there. ----- Forwarded message from Carsten Agger ----- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:18:27 +0200 Subject: Shut Down the Camp - civil disobedience against the racist, dehumanisng asylum system Luk Lejren (Shut down the camp!) is a Danish initiative of civil disobedience against the government's inhumane asylum policy. In Denmark, asylum seekers waiting for asylum are obliged to live for years in camps behind barbed wire. They can leave the camps, but must be back by nightfall. They are not allowed to receive schooling, they are not allowed to work - actually, they are not allowed to do anything. People who arrive traumatized by war are shattered by the Danish asylum system's negligence. The camps are run by the Danish Red Cross, and the government usually brushes off criticism of life in the camps by claiming they have nothing to do with it, the Red Cross is running the camps, and nobody wants to criticize the Red Cross. Thus, the Danish Red Cross are actually legitimizing Denmark's inhuman and dehumanizing asylum policy. On October 25, a non-violent demonstration with thousands of people will symbolically CLOSE THE CAMP by bringing down the barbed wire fences. This is done to demand that Danish authorities let these people participate in our society instead of going insane after years of oblivion and inactivity in the camps. Here's what the activists write in English on their home page: - ----------------------------------------- Shut Down the Camp The Shut Down the Camp Initiative calls for a day of action against the Sandholm refugee camp in North Zealand, Denmark (25km north of Copenhagen). On October the 25th we are planning a massive civil disobedience action. We do not use physical violence, we cut fences and shut down control posts. Our aim is to dismantle the Sandholm camp, and thereby physically challenge the racism of the Danish refugee policy. The way Denmark treats refugees is horrible. On several occasions the UNHCR has criticised Denmark for not complying with international regulations. Refugees that have risked their life to escape persecution are turned away at the border. Recently we have seen a number of Iraqis being escorted back to Iraq. Many of them have disappeared shortly after their return. The process of being granted an asylum in Denmark is long and hard. For years the refugees are waiting for their destiny to be decided, hidden away in remote locations. The purpose of isolation is pretty straight forward: It is to exclude the refugees from society and anything that resemble peaceful conditions and a normal life. The Sandholm refugee camp and the fences around it are brutal and concrete manifestations of racism. The Danish policy towards refugees are based on humiliation and dehumanisation of the the world???s most vulnerable. The Shut Down the Camp action is aiming to put an end to this. On October the 25th we march to the camp. This call goes out to anybody who wants to get involved. We need all the help we can get. In solidarity, Shut Down the Camp ("Luk Lejren") - ----------------------------------------- Denmark as a country has had a good reputation regarding human rights, but for many years the treatment of asylum seekers has been a serious blemish. Close the Camp is a unique point in Danish history, a point where people will turn to civil disobedience to stop the government's racist policies. Requesting the Red Cross to withdraw from the role as upkeepers of the brutal camp regime is an important first step. Read more in English about the conditions in Sandholm here: http://www.humanrightsblog.org/archives/cat_roma.html The projects' home page: http://www.luklejren.dk/ in English: http://www.luklejren.dk/spip.php?article14 best regards, Carsten Agger, Denmark - -- Blog: http://www.modspil.dk http://www.faklen.dk # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mail.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at kein.org - ----- End forwarded message ----- From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 15:12:29 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:12:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Islamists force removal of Baul Sculptures Message-ID: Baul/Lalan Shah statues have been removed after Islamist protests. Left activists are wearing gamcha in protest today. Once again, bullying a spineless state works wonders for the jongi mollah squad. Today I'm so angry, I can't give a **** about using sensitive words to describe my opponents. Why can the Islamists threaten to topple the state and everyone believes them and the left can't mount the same threat (at all!) in Bangladesh? angry angry angry ################# Sculptures near ZIA removed after protests Staff Correspondent Daily Star http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=58970 The Roads and Highways Department (RHD) and Civil Aviation Authority of Bangladesh (CAAB) were forced to remove five sculptures of Bauls (folk singers) including Lalon Shah in front of the Zia International Airport in the face of protests from an Islamist group. Sculptor Mrinal Haque told reporters that almost 50 percent task of the Tk 1crore project had been finished at a cost of around Tk 50 lakh. Two of the five sculptures had been removed by yesterday evening while the rest was to be removed by midnight, Officer-in-Charge (OC) of the Airport Police Station Sirajul Islam told the Daily Star. He said the erection of the sculptures began about a month ago. Earlier, Murti Protirodh Committee (Sculpture Prevention Committee) led by Khatme Nabuat Chairman Mufti Nur Hossain Nurani gave an ultimatum of 24 hours for removal of the sculptures. Witnesses said around 2,000 people gathered in the area when the task of removing the sculptures began at about 11:00am. The OC quoting the committee leaders said they do not want any sculptures in the airport area where the hajj camp is located. From basantptolani at yahoo.in Thu Oct 16 15:38:29 2008 From: basantptolani at yahoo.in (Basant P. Tolani) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:38:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] A Citizen For Peace Message-ID: <45830.9019.qm@web95109.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Friends, Hope this letter meets you in the best of health.   I am a filmmaker from Bombay. Looking at recent blasts all over the country and the agitations that it has lead to, pains my heart. I have written a  small article to express myself and would be highly grateful to you if you publish it.     My blog on this article is www.acitizenforpeace.blogspot.com   Regards Basant P. Tolani Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From s.arif.zaman at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 17:08:27 2008 From: s.arif.zaman at gmail.com (Arif Zaman) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:38:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Pakistan Workshop 2009: Call for Papers In-Reply-To: <19927f5f0810150751x209663fewf41bcd3c5a2ba9f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <19927f5f0810150751x209663fewf41bcd3c5a2ba9f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The Pakistan Workshop CALL FOR PAPERS: 'DREAMS, VISIONS AND NIGHTMARES: BETWEEN THE IMAGINED AND THE REAL' The Pakistan Workshop 8-10th May 2009 – Rook How, The Lake District, Cumbria, England Contact email address: PakistanWorkshop at googlemail.com Reality is a tangible concept. It is pervasive and powerful, and shapes the actions and thoughts of individuals and groups. However, if we assert that there is such a thing as imagined reality we begin to challenge the objective existence of obvious and observed phenomena, pay attention to the effects that social and cultural systems have on how reality is framed and articulated, and to how imaginaries are aspired to and projected. For 2009, the Pakistan Workshop warmly invites scholars of Pakistan, the Pakistani diaspora and Muslims of South Asia to submit abstracts for papers broadly interrogating the space between the 'imagined' and the 'real'. It is hoped that papers will address dreams, visions and nightmares among Pakistanis, particularly contestations of belonging and political aspirations. The enmeshing of ideas and material structures, subject positions and collective identities should be important focuses. This broad theme is meant as a prompt to help participants select aspects of their research for presentation, but is not intended to exclude people whose interest does not happen to coincide with the theme. The Pakistan Workshop was founded to bring together anthropologists and sociologists whose research involved Pakistan, the Pakistani diaspora and South Asian Islam. However, this workshop has also attracted scholars and researchers from a broad range of disciplines including historians, political scientists, economists and applied social scientists. The Workshop is a joint platform for new scholars (including postgraduate students) and established scholars, providing an opportunity to get acquainted with each other in order to motivate and inspire people working in common fields of interest. We particularly welcome postgraduates from UK and abroad who are working in relevant areas and wish to receive a friendly feedback from our group of academics and participants. This workshop is therefore normally kept small and intimate with a group of 25 or less people. REGISTRATIONS ARE LIMITED – EARLY REGISTRATIONS ARE RECOMMENDED. You can register by contacting Kaveri Harriss. A registration fee of £30 should be paid by cheque (payable to 'The Pakistan Workshop') and posted to: Kaveri Harriss Department of Anthropology Arts D412, University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9SJ The venue, Rook How, is one of the oldest Quaker Meeting Houses in Britain and is an important location in the Quaker world. The Rook How offers dormitory style sleeping arrangements which are comfortable and affordable. For those who prefer B&B accommodation, there are several nice places around the area which can only be accessed if they have their own car. The total cost of the Workshop will be approximately £65-70 for those staying at the Rook How (which includes Workshop registration, reception, breakfasts, Pakistani lunches, teas and coffees). Contact PakistanWorkshop at googlemail.com for more information about this event. *APOLOGIES FOR CROSS-POSTING* From lawrence at altlawforum.org Thu Oct 16 17:11:25 2008 From: lawrence at altlawforum.org (Lawrence Liang) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:11:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PM intervenes in Standoff on 377 Case Message-ID: Two stories on the ongoing 377 case: Some of the comments in the first story are really worth reading http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/oct/16gay.htm http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/oct/15gay.htm *PM intervenes in Patil-Ramadoss tiff over gay sex* October 16, 2008 15:59 IST The tug-of-war between Home Minister Shivraj Patil [Images] and Health Minister Anbumani Ramadoss over legalising homosexuality on Thursday reached the Union Cabinet with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] asking them to sit together and sort out the issue. "The prime minister has directed the two ministers to sit together and discuss the matter and sort out differences," Science and Technology Minister Kapil Sibal told reporters after the cabinet meeting. He said the cabinet deferred a decision on the issue which was being argued before the court. The Delhi [Images] high court is hearing a Public Interest Litigation challenging the legality of Section 377 of the Indian Penal Code which bans sexual relations among the people of the same gender. "Whatever the court decides, we will agree," Sibal said. The court had on Wednesday pulled up the Centre for relying on religious texts to justify the prohibition on gay sex in the country and asked it to come up with scientific reports to justify it. The issue has become controversial with Ramadoss saying that he would take up the matter with the prime minister after his ministry was ticked off by the home ministry before the court. The home ministry is opposing the health ministry's suggestion for legalising homosexuality. The home ministry has suggested not to decriminalise gay sex on moral grounds while the health ministry has proposed to abolish the penal provision which carries a punishment of up to life imprisonment for such acts. The health minister had sought legalisation of homosexuality arguing tat it can help in better treatment of people suffering from HIV/AIDS. The National Aids Control Organisation, in its affidavit filed on behalf of Union health ministry, had said that gay sex among consenting adults should be decriminalised. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 17:55:40 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:25:40 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Kado Lalon Kado Message-ID: October 16th, 2008: 118th death anniversary of Fakir Lalon Shah October 15th, 2008: Government Officials pull down Lalon statue after protests by Bigots Kado Lalon, Kado http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/16/lalon/ From lawrence at altlawforum.org Thu Oct 16 19:07:44 2008 From: lawrence at altlawforum.org (Lawrence Liang) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 19:07:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Day 9 of Naaz Petition Hearings Message-ID: I suppose you have to give it to the ASG for his tenacity...... the arguments are increasingly looking like versions of the ever returning Jason of the friday the 13th series, no matter how many times you knock him down, he keeps returning with more of the same *Day Nine of Naz Hearings (16.10.08)* The ASG continued his submissions with reference to the written arguments of the petitioner by noting that there is a distinction between sexual intercourse and carnal intercourse and it cannot be said that homosexuality is natural intercourse. 'The natural law is very clear, when it is between a husband and his wife , if it is unnatural it is an offence. Sec 377 applies to all citizens who are doing an unnatural act and hence does not violate Art 14.' J. Shah made the point that the Section does not make an distinction between consensual and non consensual , public and private and hence whether the Section was over inclusive as submitted by the petitioners ? The ASG responded by saying that consent will not 'make an offence not an offence'. If you look at Sec 375 sixtly, a man is said to commit rape if he has sexual intercourse with a girl who is under the age of sixteen with or without consent. J. Shah noted that why consent was not material for an offence under Sec 375 sixtly was because it was an act of sexual intercourse with a minor girl. The ASG noted that there were other conditions such as unsoundness of mind, intoxication all of which indicated that there was no question of consent. If Sec 377 was to be read to exclude consenting acts as was urged by the petitioners , then the language of the provision would have to be changed to record the above mentioned conditions. J. Shah noted that consent meant only valid consent. The ASG then said that the South African Constitution cannot be used to interpret our Constitution and that Sec 377 laid down a valid classification which was not hit by Art 14. With respect to the fact that Sec 377 applied to acts done both in private as well as in public he noted that an offence is something which is punishable under the IPC and that the behaviour under Sec 377 was an offence . He went on to submit that Art 14 is very clear as it applies uniformly to all persons who indulge in unnatural acts as prohibited by law- consent by one or two parties will not make the offence arbitrary. On the question of whether Sec 377 disproportionately affects sexuality minorities as was made out by the petitioner the ASG noted that the word sexual minority had no place in the Constitutional scheme. The word minority is defined and that there is no such thing as a sexual minority in the Constitution. 'Any group of 100 or 1000 people can start claiming that they are a minorityand the Court will be sitting on this only'. J. Shah responded by saying that the word minority was only used to indicate that it was a small group. Would you say that that the statement that 'those affected by tuberculosis or leprosy are vulnerable minorities is then a wrong statement?' The phrase sexual minority means that some two lakh people for example have a different sexual orientation. The ASG responded by saying that the word sexual orientation comes from South Africa and our Constitution does not say that. One is dividing the nation by recognizing that. J. Shah then asked if the law said that the disabled should be treated separately, are we then dividing the nation ? The ASG responded by saying that if there are 1,00,000 etc people who start claiming that we are entitled as a matter of right not to be prosecuted then every 1000 people will assemble and start saying that this is our right. J. Muralidhar then asked if MSM as a term was a fiction or a reality ? The ASG responded by saying that it is a perversity. J. Muralidhar then asked regardless of your moral opinion, the question is does the Government recognize that they exist ? The ASG then conceded that they exist and asked how is it possible to have' a grouping of such persons when our Constitution does not say this ?' J. Shah asked the ASG to keep his value judgments aside as the Court was discussing questions of law. The ASG responded by saying that as far as Art 14 was concerned this was the law. He said that 'they needed treatment, education, employment and that they should be treated well. J. Muralidhar then asked how then according to the ASG a person who was committing a crime was being given employment ? The ASG responded that it was a 'reformatory society ' and that they be given employment but not government employment. J. Shah asked whether a person who declared his status as gay would be entitled to employment ? J. Muralidhar wanted to know how the stance of them being entitled to employment was consistent with your position that they are persons without rights ? The ASG 's response was to say that ' should such a course of conduct be read down ?' J. Muralidhar noted that should it be criminalized in private and public according to you, it will be an offence ? The ASG noted that 'by their conduct, this kind of activity is a great health hazard and it enhances the chance of spreading disease.' J. Shah responded by saying that not very HIV infected person is a homosexual. J. Muralidhar said that even among the sources you have read to us , you have said that homosexual sex is only one of the sources of transmission. The ASG responded by asking whether the Court should encourage such sources ? J. Muralidhar objected to the ASGs' remarks by saying that 'you say that we are dividing the country'. J. Shah interjected to say that 'these are not arguments but comments against us.'. The ASG then went on to reiterate his point that Sec 377 is neutral, and what it prohibits is unknown to law and that the law lays down social standards. The ASG then began to read and rebut the written submission of Respondent 8, Voices Against Sec 377 on Art 14 He disagreed with the Voices argument that the provision was never intended to protect women and children and asserted that it meant to protect others including women and children. He asserted that there was no question of reading down Sec 377 and the language was clear. He noted that if Sec 377 hampered HIV/AIDs' interventions , they just had to come forward and the Government would help them. With respect to the submission that Sec 377 conferred unguided discretion upon the police which power was used by the police to blackmail and abuse the ASG asserted that the power was guided as all kinds of activity was barred under Sec 377. The ASG dismissed the reference to Sandra Day O Connor's concurring opinion in Lawrence v. Texas, which was making the point that if a certain kind of expression closely associated with a group is targeted ( anal sex ), in effect the group is targeted by remarking that 'our laws are different.'. He said that he would read the National Coalition judgement on which he was asked by J. Shah to refer the judgment with respect to all aspects. The ASG then went on to address arguments under Art 15 by referring to the Anuj Garg decesion. He was guided by J. Shah to the part of the judgment relied upon by both the petitioner , Naz Foundation and Voices Agaisnt Sec 377 which sought to make the point that under Art 15 discrimination was barred on the basis of 'sex, race, caste or any other like basis.' J. Shah inquired whether the phrase like basis could include sexual orientation ? The ASG responded that the word sexual orientation came from the South African Constitution and proceeded to read out Sec 9(3) in which sexual orientation was a prohibited marker of discrimination. J. Shah responded by saying that, 'we don't have the word pregnancy in our constitution and whether we should not refer to pregnancy as a marker of non discrimination because the word is not mentioned in the Constitution ? Could we justify special legislation for pregnant women on the basis of Art 15 protections ? If in the American Constitution , Fijian Constitution the word sexual orientation was not mentioned , did it preclude any argument based on sexual orientation being advanced ? The ASG conceded that women have a right of employment and a right to equality. The ASG then went on to cite (2005) 6 SCC 281 , to make the point that it was well settled that the mere possibility of abuse of law did not make the provision unconstitutional. The mere possibility of abuse of power will not make it ultra vires and only the action and not the section will be vulnerable. The Court only interprets the law and the Court cannot legislate and if the law was misused it was up to the legislature. The ASG then handed over to the Court four decisions which made the point that the presumption of constitutionality was in favour of the legislation. The ASG then noted that he would like to read an important case, Sakshi v. Union of India (2004) 5 SCC 518. The ASG was asked to read the relevant part of the judgment which noted that a radically enlarged meaning of sexual intercourse under Sec 376 may violate Art 20 (1 ) ( no person can be charged retroactively for an offence). J. Shah wanted to know what the submission of the ASG was on the point as the Sakshi judgment was on the point of broadening the section to create new offences ? The ASG submitted that the question was whether the provision should be interpreted in this manner. It was the same argument in this matter as the question was one of interpretation. J. Shah responded that the ASG should please try to understand that the question before the Court here was whether the provision was void vis a vis consenting adults. The ASG went on to read the assertions of the ASG in the Sakshi case to make the point that no Court can strike down a provision on the basis of an international treaty. J. Muralidhar made the point that what the ASG was quoting was merely the arguments before the Court, the Court in the Sakshi matter never pronounced on the matter cited by the ASG. J. Muralidhar observed that if there was a gap in the enacted law, international law can be used as interpretative tool to expand the scope of rights. He pointed out to Francis Coralie Mullin, where J. Bhagwati referred to and drew inspiration from the judgement of the US Supreme Court in Munn. V. State of Illinois. J,. Shah agreed with the ASG's assertion that international law cannot be used to strike down a domestic law. And went on to observe that international treaties, can be relied upon as tools to interpret provisions in the Constitution. The ASG asserted that the Court cannot make laws but only interpret it. He then went on to repeat his reading of Kharak Singh where the judges had noted that the harm complained of had to be tangible and not mere personal sensitivities. The ASG then referred to the judgment of Javed v. State ( 2003) 8 SCC 369 , in which the Court had upheld the law limiting the number of children any person elected to the Panchayat could have and had observed that Art 21 did not encompass the right to 'procreate as many children as one pleases'. That the right was to be read in the context of the 'menace of growing population which was judicially noticed. The ASG then referred to (2008) 2 SCC 254, to make the point that the the rule which should guide the Court is that one should always presume in favour of constitutionality. To doubt constitutional validity of a law is to resolve it in terms of its validity. The Court is not concerned with the wisdom or unwisdom, justice or injustice of law. J. Shah observed that the decesion related to a law which does not violate fundamental rights and if it does not violate the fundamental rights , then the Court cannot strike it down on the grounds that it is unjust. The ASG noted that the 'the fact that the legislation could be better was not material for the purposes of interpretation. It happened in South Africa, Hong Kong is not relevant. Whether the law causes hardship cannot be a basis of its challenge. J. Shah asked if when the right to health was violated, whether that could be dismissed on the ground of mere hardship ? The ASG replied that you 'cant infringe others fundamental rights to fulfil your rights. Society has a right to good health as well'. J. Shah noted that the Court was not going to rely upon the material the ASG produced and the Court had asked the ASG to produce WHO Reports etc. He noted that whether criminalization would stop HIV or not, there was no material before the Court in terms of scientific evidence. The ASG urged the Court to 'think further, if one of the sources which causes HIV/AIDS – would it not be increasing if every man on the street thinks its permissible lets do it ?' J. Shah asked if that was the case , why did the Government in its own affidavit make the point that Sec 377 had 'rarely been used against homosexual activities' The ASG replied that if a provision was there in the statute books and not used for 150 years , should it be struck down ? He said that there is no fear of prosecution, they have not been harmed. They have gone astray, they must be protected, should be educated. J. Shah observed that there were fifteen incidents which were brought before the Court. The ASG observed that 'their hardship is no ground to violate the law'. He went on to note that the IPC is divided into various Chapters and sexual offence come in the Sec 376 to Sec 377. The scheme of the Act had to be taken into account. The scheme of the Act is serious about punishing unnatural offences. If there is a change in Sec 377 many other laws would have to change, for example the Hindu Marriage Act. The Court rose with J. Shah pointing out that the matter could be resumed in the afternoon. The ASG submitted that he was busy and had many other matters and could not continue in the afternoon. The Counsel for BP Singhal was not present and expressed through JACK's Counsel , his inability to make his submissions in the afternoon. The Counsel for JACK on being asked if he would be prepared to make his submissions said that he would prefer to follow the ASG. The Court then asked the ASG as to let the Court know how much time he wanted. The ASG said that he wanted at least two days. The Court requested him to try and finish by tomorrow and to take a bit of time on Monday. The Court proposed to hear both the intervenors on Monday as well as the rejoinder so that the hearings could be completed. The next date of hearing was fixed for 17.10.08 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 19:11:24 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 06:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Petition for "Citizen to Citizen Dialogue" in Jammu & Kashmir Message-ID: <697247.76501.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Though rarely one to sign "Petitions On Line", I was heartened to see that the majority of the comments are positive and hopeful.   As expected some did not agree with all of the wording of the Petition.   Kshmendra     Petition Title:   "Citizen to Citizen Dialogue: A Tool for Negotiating the Future of Jammu and Kashmir" http://www.petitiononline.com/ashima08/petition.html     To:  Political Parties, Government, Social, Religious and Separatist Organisations in Jammu and Kashmir   We, the citizens of Jammu and Kashmir stand at decisive crossroads of our history. There is no room for complacency today. We are the ones who have to take the initiative for deciding the future of our State. We are the ones who have to decide whether we want to choose a future where our children will have to relive the horrors of 1947 or walk the path that gives peace a chance. We all know that the State of Jammu and Kashmir is a multicultural, multireligious, multiethnic, multilinguistic and our demographic composition vis-à-vis minorities and sub minorities is not unilaterally spread. In this unique landscape, people differ on the basis of their political aspirations, ideologies, experiences, historical memories and perspectives. Hence it is utmost important that the multinarratives and multi realties of our region are recognized, accepted and respected by each other. In order to do so, the citizens have to come forward to reject the exclusivist agendas and politics based on dividing people on the basis of religion and region. There is a designed agenda to lead people towards hating and detesting each other. We have to put a stop to the ongoing ‘hate ‘politics, bloodbath and mobilizing people on the basis of religion and region. The parochial agenda of political parties, whether elected or those which are separatist in nature, are shown the door and never to be accepted by any one of us. We have to become aware that the political constituencies which are being constructed on the cost human lives have destroyed homes, material and spiritual happiness of people and therefore they-messiahs of violence and hate should not find any space in our social and political lives. They have to be halted at any cost. It is for us the citizens of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh to make way for the true spirit of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism to guide and direct our relationships and respect for human life. It is for the citizens of this region to let the new creed of non-violence which does not mean mere rejection of external physical harm but upholding the values of inner deeper spiritual values of humanity to take charge of our daily lives. The need of the hour is for the citizens to come together and dialogue our differences, grievances, pain and humiliations. As citizens of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh, we sign and endorse this petition for dialogue between citizens of the region for resolving issues and deciding the future of Jammu and Kashmir. This petition will be considered as the voice of the people for choosing ‘Citizen to Citizen Dialogue’ and for rejecting communal, hate and vote bank politics. Sincerely, The Undersigned   From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 16 20:56:08 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:56:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Asghar Ali Engineer (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well as linguistic. However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, constitution and governance of the country. India was far more peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as a category and national identity was of great importance and often caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very articulate and loud. Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining districts, is indeed hair raising. More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers just look on. When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact with America than the communal explosion back home. The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such license to function freely. The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all key positions and they captured important academic positions too. Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as never before. Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is 'shameful'. But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for its complete inability to control communal violence. So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and Hitler. Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded terrorists'. The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and play determined role things can get far more worse. From lalitbatra77 at yahoo.co.in Thu Oct 16 21:23:51 2008 From: lalitbatra77 at yahoo.co.in (lalit batra) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:53:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Reader-list] A Response to the latest Delhi Police version(s) Message-ID: <907651.25711.qm@web7606.mail.in.yahoo.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: manisha sethi Date: Oct 12, 2008 5:45 PM Subject: A Response to the latest Delhi Police version(s) To: Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group Some Questions for the Delhi Police and Embedded 'Journalists' The last few days have seen the Delhi Police "returning fire" at the critics of the Jamia Nagar encounter. Pressured by the mounting skepticism about police claims, the Delhi Police have now responded with a new round of theories and stories, which nevertheless remain as riddled with holes, as their earlier version(s). Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group responds to the latest Police claims. 1) The police was caught by surprise. Or was it? In its response to the questions being raised by the civil society, the police say, "the presence of armed terrorists took them by surprise." "The police did not expect an encounter at L- 18." (Indian Express October 9) However, Praveen Swami in his "Alice in wonderland" article in The Hindu (October 10) writes that "the investigators learned that top commander 'Bashir' and his assault armed squad left Ahmedabad on July 26 for a safe house at Jamia Nagar." Further he says, "the investigators came to believe that Atif Amin either provided Bashir shelter or the two were one and the same person." Surely, there can be only one truth: a) The police knew that a "top commander" and his "armed assault team "was residing in L- 18 (as claimed confidently by Swami). In which case, the Special Cell's almost cavalier approach is inexplicable — unless we accept Swami's contention that Inspector Sharma's team did as well as it could "given their resources and training". While Swami and his ilk may rue the lack of "state of the art surveillance equipment" that can be found in United States or Europe, surely, even Third World police can use, upon knowledge that "dreaded terrorists" are holed up in a house, methods such as sealing the building, and making public announcements asking them to surrender. b) The Police went to L-18 merely for investigation and was ambushed. In which case, isn't it surprising that it took them only a few hours to crack nearly all cases of bomb blasts that have occurred across the country? It was of course inconvenient for UP, Gujarat, Rajasthan and Maharashtra state police, who had been claiming their own successes in uncovering their 'masterminds'. The Police commissioner Y.S. Dadwal announced at a news conference the same day that "Atif was the mastermind behind all the recent serial blasts," and that he had plotted the Saturday blasts... was also involved in the Ahmedabad blasts on July 26, Jaipur blasts on May 13, and one of the August 25 blasts last year in Hyderabad. Sajid was described as bomb-maker. "Explosives made by him and his team bore their signature — two detonators, wooden frame, ammonium nitrate and analog quartz clocks," Dadwal said (HindustanTimes, 20 September). The question is that, the Police which did not even expect an 'encounter' in the morning, was able to say with confidence that the bombs used in Delhi blasts bore the 'signature' of the slain Sajid by evening. The Police must pick one of these 'truths'. It cannot claim both to be true simultaneously. 2) The puzzle of the Bullet Proof Jacket Again, the Delhi Police has not made up its mind on this one. JCP, Karnail Singh and Deputy Commissioner of Police (Special Cell) Alok Kumar have reiterated that the Special Cell team members were not wearing BPVs. ["Entering a crowded locality would alert the suspects and give them time to escape" {Indian Express Oct 9); "To maintain secrecy in a cramped area like Batla House." (Tehelka Oct 4)]. However, now we are also told that some police men were wearing Bullet proof vests. This new version has appeared following the outcry after the publication of pictures of Sajid's body, which clearly show that he had been shot repeatedly in the head. Such bullet injuries suggest that he could have been killed from extreme close range while he was crouching or kneeling. This it self raises a huge question mark over the 'encounter'. "Senior police sources" now claim that Sajid was "lying on the floor when he opened fire at a cop. The cop, unlike Inspector Sharma, was wearing a bulletproof vest. He retaliated by firing a burst from his AK-47, which hit Sajid on his head." (Times of India, Oct 8). Neat. It explains why and how Sajid was killed. And also, why the cop in question was not as much as injured when Sajid was supposedly firing at him. But it doesn't square with the line the Delhi Police have been pushing up till now, that Inspector Sharma's men did not deliberately wear bullet proof vests. Nor with the claim that the Special team was "armed only with small arms". (The Hindu, October 10) Nonetheless, the Delhi Police must clearly make up its mind if the cops that day were wearing Bullet proof vests or not? 3) Corroborative evidence? Believe it or not, the evidence in support of their claim that the boys living in L-18 were terrorists, the police presents a bucket, adhesive tape and a bag! (Indian Express, Oct 9). The bucket was used to keep bombs (but was presumably empty at the time of'seizure'); the adhesive tape was used to seal the explosives (!!!); and finally the bag was used to carry the bombs (but again presumably empty when the police 'recovered' it). Let it be noted that legal requirements were flouted with regard to seizures. The police is required to prepare a seizure list of all items recovered from the site and it should be attested by two public witnesses unconnected with the police. Given that a huge crowd had gathered at the site, surely, the police could have sought the assistance of members of the public. And why does L-18 continue to remain sealed? 4) Injuries and Bullets: Photographs of the bodies of Atif and Sajid, taken during the ritual bathing before burial clearly indicate injury marks on the bodies. These marks could definitely not have been caused by bullets. The skin on Atif s back is ripped off. What caused these injury marks? Were they captured before they were eliminated? The Police is now citing the elusive post mortem report, saying that the two did not have any injuries on them apart from those caused by bullets, in order to buttress their claim of the "shootout being genuine". (TOI, Oct 9). The documentary proof of the existence of such marks on the bodies however belies their claims. Rattled by the photographs of an injured Inspector Sharma being escorted from the L-18 building, where no blood stain is visible on the front, the Police have stated that he was hit from the front as "one bullet hit him in the left shoulder and exited through the left arm; the other hit the right side of the abdomen, exiting through the hip." (The Hindu, October 10) For this reason, they argue, the bleeding was from the back—the points of exit. However, according to a senior doctor who conducted the postmortem on Inspector MC Sharma at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, "It was difficult to establish the entry and exit points of the bullet because conclusive evidence had been wiped out by the interventions of the doctors at Holy Family [where Sharma was rushed to]." (Tehelka, October 4). But at least one enthusiastic journalist doesn't stop here. He tells us that the "abdomen wound was inflicted with Amin's weapon and the shoulder hit, by Mohammad Sajid". And how does he know? "The investigators believe that." (The Hindu, October 10)And he believes the investigators. Has he seen a copy of the post mortem? Or the videography of the post mortem? What bullets were fired upon Inspector Sharma? What was the weapon that killed Sajid and Atif? Why are the post mortem reports of Inspector Sharma and Atif and Sajid not being made public? 5 "Over confident terrorists": In response to why these supposed 'terrorists' left a trail of identification marks which would have made them sitting ducks, the police have a simple answer. They were over confident. (Indian Express, October 9) These boys (aged 17 years — 24 years) were so confident that they had their tenant verifications done in which they provided their genuine addresses; Atif had his driving license made by providing his genuine details; carried out blasts and returned home coolly to watch their exploits on television; felt no need to flee or change residences frequently; bought sim cards in their own names; registered as students in schools and institutions; sat for examinations midway through planning and executing blasts. And yet, these masterminds had no inkling of the special cell surveillance, and indeed helpfully stored material such as photographs of blast sites on their laptops and cell phones, so that their guilt could be proved promptly by the police whenever they were caught. Mr. Praveen Swami writes that that "the allegations leveled over the encounter tell us more about the critics than the event itself." Sure, we are skeptics, unwilling to lap up everything that comes forth from "police sources", senior or otherwise; but what does taking dictations from the Special Cell tell us about you, Mr. 'journalist'? Our doubts remain. Our questions unanswered. Only a time bound, independent inquiry under the sitting judge of the Supreme Court can illumine the truth. What does the Delhi Police and the Government have to fear if the truth is on their side? Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group - --------------------------------- Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Click here. From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 22:40:29 2008 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:40:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <368945.82691.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer.   vedavati --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: From: Javed Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Asghar Ali Engineer (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well as linguistic. However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, constitution and governance of the country. India was far more peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as a category and national identity was of great importance and often caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very articulate and loud. Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining districts, is indeed hair raising. More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers just look on. When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact with America than the communal explosion back home. The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such license to function freely. The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all key positions and they captured important academic positions too. Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as never before. Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is 'shameful'. But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for its complete inability to control communal violence. So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and Hitler. Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded terrorists'. The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and play determined role things can get far more worse. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Thu Oct 16 22:50:42 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <368945.82691.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> India is secular: 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not have that. 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their own motherland 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal Not to say the last words.. If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies because we chose to remain Hindu. --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: From: Vedavati Jogi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "Javed" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer.   vedavati --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: From: Javed Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Asghar Ali Engineer (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well as linguistic. However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, constitution and governance of the country. India was far more peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as a category and national identity was of great importance and often caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very articulate and loud. Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining districts, is indeed hair raising. More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers just look on. When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact with America than the communal explosion back home. The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such license to function freely. The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all key positions and they captured important academic positions too. Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as never before. Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is 'shameful'. But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for its complete inability to control communal violence. So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and Hitler. Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded terrorists'. The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and play determined role things can get far more worse. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Oct 17 00:10:12 2008 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:40:12 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <74A1AB28-AE01-4465-B35D-E43296C44E7B@zedat.fu-berlin.de> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, subservience and silent suffering? Britta Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > India is secular: > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > have that. > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > own motherland > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > Not to say the last words.. > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Javed" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > Engineer. > > vedavati > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > From: Javed > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Oct 17 00:28:06 2008 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:58:06 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <74A1AB28-AE01-4465-B35D-E43296C44E7B@zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <74A1AB28-AE01-4465-B35D-E43296C44E7B@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <612AF941-0468-4014-94DD-9BABDF6F3103@zedat.fu-berlin.de> sorry, I meant 'differentiating' rather than 'not differentiating' - power of habit, thankfully difficult to shake off... B Am 16.10.2008 um 20:40 schrieb Britta Ohm: > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > subservience and silent suffering? > Britta > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >> India is secular: >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >> have that. >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >> own motherland >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >> >> Not to say the last words.. >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >> because we chose to remain Hindu. >> >> >> --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> From: Vedavati Jogi >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> To: "Javed" >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM >> >> i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali >> Engineer. >> >> vedavati >> >> --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: >> >> From: Javed >> Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> To: "sarai list" >> Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM >> >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> >> Asghar Ali Engineer >> >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) >> >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well >> as linguistic. >> >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and >> despite >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. >> >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's >> demand >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very >> articulate and loud. >> >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. >> >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check >> until >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. >> >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. >> >> Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian >> nationalism >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. >> >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than >> the >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. >> >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the >> Hindutva >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining >> districts, is indeed hair raising. >> >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and >> 35 >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar >> that >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? >> >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of >> minorities. When Christians and Muslimsare being so brutally >> targeted >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all >> to >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers >> just look on. >> >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. >> >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact >> with America than the communal explosion back home. >> >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and >> the >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such >> license to function freely. >> >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as >> never before. >> >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the >> newspapers >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems >> except >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. >> >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to >> Hindutva >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is >> 'shameful'. >> >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of >> Orissa. >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for >> its complete inability to control communal violence. >> >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and >> Hitler. >> >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot >> after >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. >> >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded >> terrorists'. >> >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite >> and >> play determined role things can get far more worse. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now >> http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ___________________ > > Britta Ohm > Postdoc > University of Zurich > UPRP Asia and Europe > > Office: > Scheuchzerstr. 21 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 > fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 > britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch > www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch > > Home: > Solmsstr. 36 > 10961 Berlin > Germany > +49-(0)30-695 07 155 > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > Ekkehardstr. 18 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > +41-(0)43-2689077 > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 02:17:14 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:47:14 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <368945.82691.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <368945.82691.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ... and Nepal, which used to be a Hindu state, should be a better place for Ms Vedavati Jogi. I don't know if it still is under the Maoist-led government, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it, and i am sure she would get some support from the ex-king and his people. 2008/10/16 Vedavati Jogi : > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer. > > vedavati > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > From: Javed > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 02:54:04 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <74A1AB28-AE01-4465-B35D-E43296C44E7B@zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <74A1AB28-AE01-4465-B35D-E43296C44E7B@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: Britta, Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a completely different language, which the rest of the members have no intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the list is not physically wrecked. Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. Tapas 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > subservience and silent suffering? > Britta > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >> India is secular: >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >> have that. >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >> own motherland >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >> >> Not to say the last words.. >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >> because we chose to remain Hindu. >> >> From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Oct 17 03:08:32 2008 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:32 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: References: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <74A1AB28-AE01-4465-B35D-E43296C44E7B@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <39DF362F-54A9-41EB-BD18-C270BFF883C1@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Thank you, Tapas. I had hoped that - by pre-empting foreseeable arguments - the mob could be at least silenced and vacate the chair for something nice. It seems to have worked. I know that I don't have to die in 'riots', but this list occasionally gives you a virtual idea of how it feels if you have survived. It indeed would be funny if it wasn't so sad. And do not underestimate the longivity and persistance of those we think we can laugh off by ignoring their bad breath. It might be longer than ours. All best -- Britta Am 16.10.2008 um 23:24 schrieb Tapas Ray: > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has >> been >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the >> paradigms >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, >> the >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, >> subservience and silent suffering? >> Britta >> >> >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: >> >>> India is secular: >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >>> have that. >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >>> own motherland >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >>> >>> Not to say the last words.. >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 07:35:55 2008 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:35:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d0d777b0810161905i76290f09od1006a2b02713595@mail.gmail.com> Dear javed, Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult some literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor it ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you understand what secularism means. On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal Goswami ATREE, Bangalore-24 From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 09:04:31 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 20:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <704470.19888.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That is true.. you will not die in riots... Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will accept Islam...   Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva (Communal)... rest all is secular..   We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... this land of Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require people like you who believe in more than one fathers (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we respect them.. but do not want them to hit our father...   And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why don't you conver to Islam once and for all... At least we will be clear that we are having clear opposition... not confused minds.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Tapas Ray To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Britta, Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a completely different language, which the rest of the members have no intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the list is not physically wrecked. Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. Tapas 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > subservience and silent suffering? > Britta > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >> India is secular: >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >> have that. >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >> own motherland >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >> >> Not to say the last words.. >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >> because we chose to remain Hindu. >> >> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From difusion at medialab-prado.es Thu Oct 16 21:58:36 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:28:36 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Collaborators> VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY Message-ID: <48F76BB4.2070108@medialab-prado.es> *MEDIALAB-PRADO* Plaza de las Letras C/ Alameda, 15 · 28014 Madrid (Spain) +34 913 692 303 info.m at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es * * Call for Collaborators VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY *Call for Collaborators' Deadline: October 31, 2008 **November 3 through 18, 2008 · Medialab-Prado (Madrid, Spain)* * * Directed by: José Luis de Vicente. Tutors: Bestiario and Fabien Girardin. Medialab-Prado issues a call for all those interested in taking part in the VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY project development workshop, by collaborating in any of the teams that will develop the selected proposals (see link below). Visualizar'08 will also include a Seminar Program and a showcase of the developed prototypes. The workshop constitutes an horizontal collaborative work environment, knowledge interchange and theoretical-practical training among teachers, authors and collaborators. Project proposals have been selected through an international open call (http://medialab-prado.es/article/visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_proyectos) Profile of collaborators: maths, computer graphics, 3D, graphic design, web design, advertising, journalism, communication, didactics, web programming, Processing, Actionscript, Java, Javascript, HTML/CSS, design and database programming, PHP and MySQL, OpenVisuals, models of spatial representation, molecular biology, environmental chemistry, toxicology, management of GIS data, parsing of RSS data and google queries, among others. * Call Guidelines and Registration Form (English/Spanish):* http://medialab-prado.es/article/taller_visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_colaboradores *Selected Proposals **(English/Spanish)**:* http://medialab-prado.es/article/visualizar08_proyectos *General Workshop Guidelines ** **(English/Spanish)**:* http://medialab-prado.es/article/taller_visualizar08_database_city * More information: *visualizar at medialab-prado.es Organized by: Medialab-Prado (Madrid City Council-Department of Arts). In collaboration with FECYT (Spanish Ministry of Science and Innovation). Supported by Madri+d. *More information: www.medialab-prado.es* -- Medialab-Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 913 692 303 info.m at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es "Antes de imprimir este documento asegúrate de que es realmente necesario. ¡Gracias por tu colaboración!" From javedmasoo at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 10:28:32 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:28:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW COMMUNAL IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: Dear Rajkamal Since you kindly advised me to consult some literature on Secularism before writing on the subject (which incidentally I have not - this piece is from Asghar saheb), it would be great if you could give me some pertinent references as what I should read. Do you have a bibliography available. In fact many people on this list would benefit if you could suggest what we should read. Also, I suggest you read Engineer's article fully since he has nowhere said that India is secular. He is simply asking whether it is? Thanks Javed On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 7:35 AM, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > Dear javed, > Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult some > literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not > grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor it > ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you > understand what secularism means. > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: >> >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> >> Asghar Ali Engineer >> >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) >> >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well >> as linguistic. >> >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. >> >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very >> articulate and loud. >> >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. >> >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. >> >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. >> >> Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. >> >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. >> >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining >> districts, is indeed hair raising. >> >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? >> >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers >> just look on. >> >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. >> >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact >> with America than the communal explosion back home. >> >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such >> license to function freely. >> >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as >> never before. >> >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. >> >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is >> 'shameful'. >> >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for >> its complete inability to control communal violence. >> >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and >> Hitler. >> >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. >> >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded >> terrorists'. >> >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and >> play determined role things can get far more worse. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Rajkamal Goswami > ATREE, Bangalore-24 > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 13:37:17 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:37:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <704470.19888.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <704470.19888.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810170107l21cb88den773a8d3f5b3d1deb@mail.gmail.com> oh be quiet chanchal! We thought we had got some much needed respite from your lunatic rants but it seems the honeymoon period is over and once again the pall of a bad marriage - the daily energy-sapping constant carping- descends on the reader-list. Spare us. Spare us. Spare us. Spare us. Why don't you go play with nice Prabhakar Singh wherever he is?... On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:04 AM, chanchal malviya < chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote: > That is true.. you will not die in riots... > Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will accept Islam... > > Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva (Communal)... rest > all is secular.. > > We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... this land of > Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require people like you who believe in > more than one fathers (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we > respect them.. but do not want them to hit our father... > > And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why don't you > conver to Islam once and for all... At least we will be clear that we are > having clear opposition... not confused minds.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > > already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > > subservience and silent suffering? > > Britta > > > > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > > > >> India is secular: > >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > >> have that. > >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > >> own motherland > >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >> > >> Not to say the last words.. > >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > >> because we chose to remain Hindu. > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 14:28:20 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:28:20 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.? Message-ID: <945725.24807.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> It was a week of rant and rumblings for all citizens about secular india and its life as secular republic. Mr. Asgar Ali Enginneer articulated his observations of secular india, which for most part are accurate and correct about being the citizens going for the crisis in identity of being Indian for the other prioritised identity of being marati, tamil or linguistic id or the caste id in the last sixty years of free India. But all his thoughts were clouded by one black paint, -- his hate for RSS, rastriya swayam sevak sangh.Many "secular" citizens and the followers of other faith have been consistently fed with the pison that RSS is fascist, RSS is against other faiths, RSS does not like muslims, christians etc. RSS ka havva dikake rule karne ka chance ab khatham hogaya, bhai, asgar engineer.   Many citizens now have forgotten the role of RSS in the situations when the nation was facing calamities and crisis. Ofcourse the left parties even today active in propaganda against RSS when they hit out their muslim citizens in singur or nandigram, where muslims peasants and poor villagers were the worst vistims.!  In the last sixty years of free India, there is distinct three generations of indians who have seen free India, -----from 1945 to 1965 as midnight children of free India, who are fed with thaparite history of India, -------from 1965 to 1985 who have seen the free India with all its riots and communal appeasements and the aspirations of citizens being thwarted by dynastic rule of the family and its sycophantic hangers on.The three wars with Pakistan, and china and the role of the left parties during these wars.The role of RSS in national calamity be it kashmir aggression in 1948, be it 1962 chinese aggression when RSS volanteers worked with defence forces in civil control and other duties, or the cyclone in eastern coast of India ,in particular, Andhra where none dared to touch the dead bodies of victims, when RSS volanteers were the ones who gave decent burials and cremation to the dead, irrespective of the faith of the vistims,  is forgotten.During the mergency imposed, the RSS was in the forefront to struggle for the rights and freedom of all citizens, again it never claimed any credit for the work as it is national duty that it performed with its volanteers.  The critical phase is the third phase, the present, where the this generation has citizens who have no respect for their duties but are only concerned about their rights in national life. From 1985 to now, we have seen the "intellectuals" of the all political spectrum taking the new thoughts of nation without boundaries, walking and talking republic citizens, who want all the rights but do not take any responsibilty for the duties of the citizens.! The very idea of rights without responsibilty  is irresponsible citizenship. Then came the bunch of NGOs, rights activists in this present national life, for whom, the rights means only those rights of deviant citizens.? Law abiding citizens have no rights.? Here lies the danger of undermining the law keepers  by law breakers in free India. It is ridiculous to see the NGOs defending the terror accused of one community only, and the basic fault line lies in law enforcers not acting quickly when any deviant behaviour occurs. In Godhra, if the action of burning the compartment was violent deviant criminal act, it was expected that the law would take immediate action to prosecute those involved, irrespective of the faith of such criminals, to book, prosecute and punish such deviant crime and behaviour. It did not happen.   In Ayodhya, a dilapidated structure which was not used for prayer offerings for decades was disputed land, pending in the courts for decades, nay almost century.. Prompt action from leadership of all the citizens involved would have ended in harmony and good national life of love and compassion, no, it never happened, a PM used it to appease hindu votes for his decaying oldest party, even though the leader himself was considered honest, Mr. Clean.To balance the act, personal laws of minority was tampered to alimony issues. Now the battle lines were drawn to fight with each other, thanks to this leadership, interference in the internal matters of another nation, Sri Lanka was another hall mark, with LTTE getting overt and covet support from this leader, for which he had to pay with his life., thus dravidian appeasement was the name of the game. With divided citizens along the faith, region and caste lines, who got the benefi to rule.? The lady from the back alleys of london, a bar tender who was in certificate course in English.But more importantly, the lady represented that 2 percent community, to rule, after the slavery of british days.! Divided citizens today have forgotten that they are indians first, the faith and region have taken over the id. More the division, better it is for the corrupt to rule, and it is easier for the rulers to be dictators.   Wake up, id forgotten citzens, your id is indian, not of any faith in democracy. Otherwise the bishops will take tothe rule with their proxies. ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 7:36:07 AM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray)   2. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray)   3. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Britta Ohm)   4. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Rajkamal Goswami) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:47:14 -0400 From: "Tapas Ray" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" ... and Nepal, which used to be a Hindu state, should be a better place for Ms Vedavati Jogi. I don't know if it still is under the Maoist-led government, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it, and i am sure she would get some support from the ex-king and his people. 2008/10/16 Vedavati Jogi : > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer. > > vedavati > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > From: Javed > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > >      Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos..yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400 From: "Tapas Ray" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Britta, Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a completely different language, which the rest of the members have no intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the list is not physically wrecked. Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. Tapas 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > subservience and silent suffering? > Britta > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >> India is secular: >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >> have that. >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >> own motherland >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >> >> Not to say the last words.. >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >> because we chose to remain Hindu. >> >> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:32 +0200 From: Britta Ohm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "Tapas Ray" Cc: reader-list at sarai..net Message-ID: <39DF362F-54A9-41EB-BD18-C270BFF883C1 at zedat.fu-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed;     delsp=yes Thank you, Tapas. I had hoped that - by pre-empting foreseeable  arguments - the mob could be at least silenced and vacate the chair  for something nice. It seems to have worked. I know that I don't have  to die in 'riots', but this list occasionally gives you a virtual idea  of how it feels if you have survived. It indeed would be funny if it  wasn't so sad. And do not underestimate the longivity and persistance  of those we think we can laugh off by ignoring their bad breath. It  might be longer than ours. All best -- Britta Am 16.10.2008 um 23:24 schrieb Tapas Ray: > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has  >> been >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the  >> paradigms >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits,  >> the >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, >> subservience and silent suffering? >> Britta >> >> >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: >> >>> India is secular: >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >>> have that. >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >>> own motherland >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >>> >>> Not to say the last words.. >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:35:55 +0530 From: "Rajkamal Goswami" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: Javed Cc: sarai list Message-ID:     <9d0d777b0810161905i76290f09od1006a2b02713595 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear javed, Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult some literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor it ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you understand what secularism means. On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal Goswami ATREE, Bangalore-24 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 ******************************************* Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Fri Oct 17 14:31:15 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (Fatima) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:31:15 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <704470.19888.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <776906.7676.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Dear Chanchal Who are you referring to when you mentioned "people like you who believe in more than one fathers..." Did you mean Britta and her ethnic world, or anyone from outside India? Sounds outrageous any way. I don't want to hurt anyone's sentiments here, but I wanted clear a bit of the family lineage here. When you say Hindutva is our only one father (rest are uncles), there must be a mother too, which I assume is Bharat mata. So, when people other than Hindus live in India, and call Bharat mata their mother, what about their fathers? If Muslims, Christians, Parsis find their religions as their fathers - we all have one mother? Its getting a bit confusing here? My uncle is also the husband of my mother...and so on. --- On Fri, 17/10/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > From: chanchal malviya > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Tapas Ray" , reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Friday, 17 October, 2008, 9:04 AM > That is true.. you will not die in riots... > Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will > accept Islam... >   > Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva > (Communal)... rest all is secular.. >   > We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... > this land of Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require > people like you who believe in more than one fathers > (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we respect > them.. but do not want them to hit our father... >   > And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why > don't you conver to Islam once and for all... At least > we will be clear that we are having clear opposition... not > confused minds.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die > in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but > who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of > these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, > have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few > gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to > mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather > perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they > speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the > members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these > things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack > this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they > can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so > that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing > how this list has been > > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how > deeply the paradigms > > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but > painstakingly flexible > > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by > saying this I > > already know the - superficially varied - reactions > that will refuse > > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext > of 'not > > differentiating' and with the accusation of > communalising, to go to > > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the > Kashmiri pundits, the > > injustice done to the 'majority community' and > - to leave this list. > > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really > only masochism, > > subservience and silent suffering? > > Britta > > > > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > > > >> India is secular: > >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no > Hindu personal law > >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, > but Hindus do not > >> have that. > >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they > are not engaged > >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied > on them in their > >> own motherland > >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and > Christianity to be > >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >> > >> Not to say the last words.. > >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you > convert to Islam or > >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. > The problem lies > >> because we chose to remain Hindu. > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at rocketmail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 14:45:54 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:45:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <776906.7676.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <704470.19888.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <776906.7676.qm@web8405.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810170215w445b283q8a3b033474acf0bd@mail.gmail.com> Absolutely Fatima. You have got it spot on. You see in my religion i.e. amongst us Hindus, this matter or fathers and mothers and uncles and aunts is terribly confusing. Pick up any text and genealogical confusions abound, so do excuse us when we export this to everyone else as well. Of course most of us are happy to live with it - I mean more fathers is only more patrimony all around, and a few extra children really don't add that much more to the family expense - but some like Chanchal find this terribly distressing. So you must excuse them. They are simply playing out their own deep insecurities on a societal scale. On behalf of my Hindu brethren Aarti On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Fatima wrote: > Dear Chanchal > Who are you referring to when you mentioned "people like you who believe in > more than one fathers..." Did you mean Britta and her ethnic world, or > anyone from outside India? Sounds outrageous any way. > > I don't want to hurt anyone's sentiments here, but I wanted clear a bit of > the family lineage here. When you say Hindutva is our only one father (rest > are uncles), there must be a mother too, which I assume is Bharat mata. So, > when people other than Hindus live in India, and call Bharat mata their > mother, what about their fathers? If Muslims, Christians, Parsis find their > religions as their fathers - we all have one mother? Its getting a bit > confusing here? My uncle is also the husband of my mother...and so on. > > > > > --- On Fri, 17/10/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > From: chanchal malviya > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "Tapas Ray" , reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Friday, 17 October, 2008, 9:04 AM > > That is true.. you will not die in riots... > > Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will > > accept Islam... > > > > Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva > > (Communal)... rest all is secular.. > > > > We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... > > this land of Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require > > people like you who believe in more than one fathers > > (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we respect > > them.. but do not want them to hit our father... > > > > And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why > > don't you conver to Islam once and for all... At least > > we will be clear that we are having clear opposition... not > > confused minds.. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Tapas Ray > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Britta, > > > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die > > in riots ... > > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but > > who knows ... > > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of > > these posts > > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, > > have simply > > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few > > gushers keep > > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to > > mark their > > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather > > perversely. > > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > > > They know they can never win an argument, because they > > speak a > > completely different language, which the rest of the > > members have no > > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these > > things ad > > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack > > this list as > > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they > > can't. I think the > > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so > > that the > > list is not physically wrecked. > > > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > > > Tapas > > > > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > > > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing > > how this list has been > > > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how > > deeply the paradigms > > > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but > > painstakingly flexible > > > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by > > saying this I > > > already know the - superficially varied - reactions > > that will refuse > > > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext > > of 'not > > > differentiating' and with the accusation of > > communalising, to go to > > > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the > > Kashmiri pundits, the > > > injustice done to the 'majority community' and > > - to leave this list. > > > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really > > only masochism, > > > subservience and silent suffering? > > > Britta > > > > > > > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > > > > > >> India is secular: > > >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no > > Hindu personal law > > >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, > > but Hindus do not > > >> have that. > > >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they > > are not engaged > > >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied > > on them in their > > >> own motherland > > >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and > > Christianity to be > > >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > >> > > >> Not to say the last words.. > > >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you > > convert to Islam or > > >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. > > The problem lies > > >> because we chose to remain Hindu. > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at rocketmail.com. > Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 14:53:15 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:53:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.? In-Reply-To: <945725.24807.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <945725.24807.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810170223m10ec1e98h3ac59a53e1f6a90f@mail.gmail.com> oh be quiet! On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:28 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > It was a week of rant and rumblings for all citizens about secular india > and its life as secular republic. Mr. Asgar Ali Enginneer articulated his > observations of secular india, which for most part are accurate and correct > about being the citizens going for the crisis in identity of being Indian > for the other prioritised identity of being marati, tamil or linguistic id > or the caste id in the last sixty years of free India. But all his thoughts > were clouded by one black paint, -- his hate for RSS, rastriya swayam sevak > sangh.Many "secular" citizens and the followers of other faith have been > consistently fed with the pison that RSS is fascist, RSS is against other > faiths, RSS does not like muslims, christians etc. RSS ka havva dikake rule > karne ka chance ab khatham hogaya, bhai, asgar engineer. > > Many citizens now have forgotten the role of RSS in the situations when > the nation was facing calamities and crisis. Ofcourse the left parties even > today active in propaganda against RSS when they hit out their muslim > citizens in singur or nandigram, where muslims peasants and poor villagers > were the worst vistims.! > > In the last sixty years of free India, there is distinct three generations > of indians who have seen free India, -----from 1945 to 1965 as midnight > children of free India, who are fed with thaparite history of India, > -------from 1965 to 1985 who have seen the free India with all its riots > and communal appeasements and the aspirations of citizens being thwarted by > dynastic rule of the family and its sycophantic hangers on.The three wars > with Pakistan, and china and the role of the left parties during these > wars.The role of RSS in national calamity be it kashmir aggression in 1948, > be it 1962 chinese aggression when RSS volanteers worked with defence forces > in civil control and other duties, or the cyclone in eastern coast of India > ,in particular, Andhra where none dared to touch the dead bodies of victims, > when RSS volanteers were the ones who gave decent burials and cremation to > the dead, irrespective of the faith of the vistims, is forgotten.During the > mergency imposed, the RSS was in the forefront to struggle for the rights > and freedom of all citizens, again it never claimed any credit for the work > as it is national duty that it performed with its volanteers. > > The critical phase is the third phase, the present, where the this > generation has citizens who have no respect for their duties but are only > concerned about their rights in national life. From 1985 to now, we have > seen the "intellectuals" of the all political spectrum taking the new > thoughts of nation without boundaries, walking and talking republic > citizens, who want all the rights but do not take any responsibilty for the > duties of the citizens.! The very idea of rights without responsibilty is > irresponsible citizenship. Then came the bunch of NGOs, rights activists in > this present national life, for whom, the rights means only those rights of > deviant citizens.? Law abiding citizens have no rights.? Here lies the > danger of undermining the law keepers by law breakers in free India. It is > ridiculous to see the NGOs defending the terror accused of one community > only, and the basic fault line lies in law enforcers not acting quickly when > any deviant > behaviour occurs. In Godhra, if the action of burning the compartment was > violent deviant criminal act, it was expected that the law would take > immediate action to prosecute those involved, irrespective of the faith of > such criminals, to book, prosecute and punish such deviant crime and > behaviour. It did not happen. > > In Ayodhya, a dilapidated structure which was not used for prayer > offerings for decades was disputed land, pending in the courts for decades, > nay almost century.. Prompt action from leadership of all the citizens > involved would have ended in harmony and good national life of love and > compassion, no, it never happened, a PM used it to appease hindu votes for > his decaying oldest party, even though the leader himself was considered > honest, Mr. Clean.To balance the act, personal laws of minority was tampered > to alimony issues. Now the battle lines were drawn to fight with each other, > thanks to this leadership, interference in the internal matters of another > nation, Sri Lanka was another hall mark, with LTTE getting overt and covet > support from this leader, for which he had to pay with his life., thus > dravidian appeasement was the name of the game. With divided citizens along > the faith, region and caste lines, who got the benefi to rule.? The lady > from the > back alleys of london, a bar tender who was in certificate course in > English.But more importantly, the lady represented that 2 percent community, > to rule, after the slavery of british days.! Divided citizens today have > forgotten that they are indians first, the faith and region have taken over > the id. More the division, better it is for the corrupt to rule, and it is > easier for the rulers to be dictators. > > Wake up, id forgotten citzens, your id is indian, not of any faith in > democracy. Otherwise the bishops will take tothe rule with their proxies. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 7:36:07 AM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray) > 2. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray) > 3. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Britta Ohm) > 4. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Rajkamal Goswami) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:47:14 -0400 > From: "Tapas Ray" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > ... and Nepal, which used to be a Hindu state, should be a better > place for Ms Vedavati Jogi. I don't know if it still is under the > Maoist-led government, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it, and i am > sure she would get some support from the ex-king and his people. > > > > 2008/10/16 Vedavati Jogi : > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer. > > > > vedavati > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > From: Javed > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > as linguistic. > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > articulate and loud. > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > just look on. > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > license to function freely. > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > never before. > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > 'shameful'. > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > Hitler. > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > terrorists'. > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.. > yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400 > From: "Tapas Ray" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > > already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > > subservience and silent suffering? > > Britta > > > > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > > > >> India is secular: > >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > >> have that. > >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > >> own motherland > >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >> > >> Not to say the last words.. > >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > >> because we chose to remain Hindu. > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:32 +0200 > From: Britta Ohm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Tapas Ray" > Cc: reader-list at sarai..net > Message-ID: <39DF362F-54A9-41EB-BD18-C270BFF883C1 at zedat.fu-berlin.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed; > delsp=yes > > Thank you, Tapas. I had hoped that - by pre-empting foreseeable > arguments - the mob could be at least silenced and vacate the chair > for something nice. It seems to have worked. I know that I don't have > to die in 'riots', but this list occasionally gives you a virtual idea > of how it feels if you have survived. It indeed would be funny if it > wasn't so sad. And do not underestimate the longivity and persistance > of those we think we can laugh off by ignoring their bad breath. It > might be longer than ours. > All best -- Britta > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 23:24 schrieb Tapas Ray: > > > Britta, > > > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > > list is not physically wrecked. > > > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > > > Tapas > > > > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has > >> been > >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the > >> paradigms > >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, > >> the > >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > >> subservience and silent suffering? > >> Britta > >> > >> > >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >> > >>> India is secular: > >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > >>> have that. > >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > >>> own motherland > >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >>> > >>> Not to say the last words.. > >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > ___________________ > > Britta Ohm > Postdoc > University of Zurich > UPRP Asia and Europe > > Office: > Scheuchzerstr. 21 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 > fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 > britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch > www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch > > Home: > Solmsstr. 36 > 10961 Berlin > Germany > +49-(0)30-695 07 155 > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > Ekkehardstr. 18 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > +41-(0)43-2689077 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:35:55 +0530 > From: "Rajkamal Goswami" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: Javed > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: > <9d0d777b0810161905i76290f09od1006a2b02713595 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Dear javed, > Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult some > literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not > grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor it > ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you > understand what secularism means. > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > as linguistic. > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > articulate and loud. > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > just look on. > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > license to function freely. > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > never before. > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > 'shameful'. > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > Hitler. > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > terrorists'. > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Rajkamal Goswami > ATREE, Bangalore-24 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 > ******************************************* > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 14:58:59 2008 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:58:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW COMMUNAL IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d0d777b0810170228q4215b1a2q5cbea9b69e50ae8e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Javed, If you yourself has read the first para of the article...its claims that " It(India) is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even when word secular was not added to it until 1975......." Hope you got it where engineer talks about India being secular? I am pasting a few biblio on secularism but before that you can just discuss any basic English language dictionary..and look at the meaning and don't do it just for secularism...do it for all the other words whose meaning you don't exactly know. Even wikipedia would do. Here's the biblio: *Nash, David. 'Secularism in the city : Geographies of dissidence and the importance of radical culture in the metropolis'.** **In** **Cragoe, Matthew; Taylor, Antony (ed.),** **London politics, 1760-1914** **(Basingstoke; New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2005), 97-120. ISBN 140399000X; 9781403990006. *** * * *Secularism** **and the Constitution of India** PB Gajendragadkar - 1971 - University of Bombay* *Secularism** **and the Constitution of India** PB Gajendragadkar - 1971 - University of Bombay* * * *The Politics of** **Secularism** **and the Recovery of Religious Tolerance* * A Nandy - Mirrors of Violence: Communities, Riots, and Survivors in …, 1990* * * *Secularism** **and its critics** R Bhargava - Oxford University Press* * * *Religious Pluralism:** **Secularism** **or Priority for Democracy?** V BADER - Political Theory, 1999* *Formations of the Secular: Christianity, Islam, Modernity** T Asad - 2003 - Stanford University Press* * * *Modes of** **Secularism** C Taylor - Secularism and its Critics, 1998* On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Javed wrote: > Dear Rajkamal > Since you kindly advised me to consult some literature on Secularism > before writing on the subject (which incidentally I have not - this > piece is from Asghar saheb), it would be great if you could give me > some pertinent references as what I should read. Do you have a > bibliography available. In fact many people on this list would benefit > if you could suggest what we should read. > > Also, I suggest you read Engineer's article fully since he has nowhere > said that India is secular. He is simply asking whether it is? > > Thanks > > Javed > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 7:35 AM, Rajkamal Goswami > wrote: > > Dear javed, > > Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult > some > > literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not > > grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor > it > > ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you > > understand what secularism means. > > > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: > >> > >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> > >> Asghar Ali Engineer > >> > >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > >> > >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > >> as linguistic. > >> > >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > >> > >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often > >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > >> articulate and loud. > >> > >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > >> > >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > >> > >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > >> > >> Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > >> > >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > >> > >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > >> districts, is indeed hair raising. > >> > >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > >> > >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > >> just look on. > >> > >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > >> > >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > >> with America than the communal explosion back home. > >> > >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > >> license to function freely. > >> > >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > >> never before. > >> > >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > >> > >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > >> 'shameful'. > >> > >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > >> its complete inability to control communal violence. > >> > >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > >> Hitler. > >> > >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > >> > >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > >> terrorists'. > >> > >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > >> play determined role things can get far more worse. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > Rajkamal Goswami > > ATREE, Bangalore-24 > > > -- Rajkamal Goswami ATREE, Bangalore-24 From javedmasoo at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 15:26:15 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:26:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW COMMUNAL IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <9d0d777b0810170228q4215b1a2q5cbea9b69e50ae8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9d0d777b0810170228q4215b1a2q5cbea9b69e50ae8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes I have read the first para - he doesn't say India is secular. He only says that the Indian constitution WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SECULAR (in theory), but could never become so in practice. And isn't this what you are saying? By the way, I assume that you have read all those books that you have mentioned. Could you provide us a gist of what they are all saying. Because this list of books and their authors seems confusing - many of those authors profess contradictory ideologies. Or at least tell us what exactly is your interpretation of secularism. What do you want me to know for which you are asking us to read the books? On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > Dear Javed, > If you yourself has read the first para of the article...its claims that > " It(India) is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975......." > > Hope you got it where engineer talks about India being secular? > I am pasting a few biblio on secularism but before that you can just discuss > any basic English language dictionary..and look at the meaning and don't do > it just for secularism...do it for all the other words whose meaning you > don't exactly know. Even wikipedia would do. > Here's the biblio: > > Nash, David. 'Secularism in the city : Geographies of dissidence and the > importance of radical culture in the metropolis'. In Cragoe, Matthew; > Taylor, Antony (ed.), London politics, 1760-1914 (Basingstoke; New York: > Palgrave Macmillan, 2005), 97-120. ISBN 140399000X; 9781403990006. > > > > Secularism and the Constitution of India > PB Gajendragadkar - 1971 - University of Bombay > > Secularism and the Constitution of India > PB Gajendragadkar - 1971 - University of Bombay > > > > The Politics of Secularism and the Recovery of Religious Tolerance > A Nandy - Mirrors of Violence: Communities, Riots, and Survivors in …, 1990 > > > > Secularism and its critics > R Bhargava - Oxford University Press > > > > Religious Pluralism: Secularism or Priority for Democracy? > V BADER - Political Theory, 1999 > > Formations of the Secular: Christianity, Islam, Modernity > T Asad - 2003 - Stanford University Press > > > > Modes of Secularism > C Taylor - Secularism and its Critics, 1998 > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Javed wrote: >> >> Dear Rajkamal >> Since you kindly advised me to consult some literature on Secularism >> before writing on the subject (which incidentally I have not - this >> piece is from Asghar saheb), it would be great if you could give me >> some pertinent references as what I should read. Do you have a >> bibliography available. In fact many people on this list would benefit >> if you could suggest what we should read. >> >> Also, I suggest you read Engineer's article fully since he has nowhere >> said that India is secular. He is simply asking whether it is? >> >> Thanks >> >> Javed >> >> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 7:35 AM, Rajkamal Goswami >> wrote: >> > Dear javed, >> > Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult >> > some >> > literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not >> > grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor >> > it >> > ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you >> > understand what secularism means. >> > >> > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: >> >> >> >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> >> >> >> Asghar Ali Engineer >> >> >> >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) >> >> >> >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and >> >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the >> >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even >> >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during >> >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal >> >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well >> >> as linguistic. >> >> >> >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, >> >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more >> >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, >> >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were >> >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite >> >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. >> >> >> >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as >> >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often >> >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the >> >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand >> >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very >> >> articulate and loud. >> >> >> >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi >> >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so >> >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to >> >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was >> >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or >> >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. >> >> >> >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great >> >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad >> >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 >> >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until >> >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like >> >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. >> >> >> >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence >> >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement >> >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull >> >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place >> >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite >> >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. >> >> >> >> Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos >> >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal >> >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, >> >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu >> >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism >> >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. >> >> >> >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the >> >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the >> >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus >> >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging >> >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. >> >> >> >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva >> >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent >> >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the >> >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. >> >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining >> >> districts, is indeed hair raising. >> >> >> >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman >> >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 >> >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? >> >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that >> >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not >> >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? >> >> >> >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of >> >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted >> >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert >> >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to >> >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers >> >> just look on. >> >> >> >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was >> >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA >> >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We >> >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the >> >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has >> >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling >> >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. >> >> >> >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA >> >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today >> >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. >> >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is >> >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime >> >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact >> >> with America than the communal explosion back home. >> >> >> >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the >> >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home >> >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given >> >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over >> >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such >> >> license to function freely. >> >> >> >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all >> >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. >> >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on >> >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded >> >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as >> >> never before. >> >> >> >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers >> >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is >> >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if >> >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays >> >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy >> >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except >> >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. >> >> >> >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong >> >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle >> >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is >> >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first >> >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva >> >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation >> >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is >> >> 'shameful'. >> >> >> >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done >> >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting >> >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying >> >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. >> >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly >> >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for >> >> its complete inability to control communal violence. >> >> >> >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of >> >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the >> >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that >> >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle >> >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large >> >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in >> >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and >> >> Hitler. >> >> >> >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It >> >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but >> >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders >> >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after >> >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks >> >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. >> >> >> >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is >> >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is >> >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is >> >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media >> >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions >> >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded >> >> terrorists'. >> >> >> >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and >> >> play determined role things can get far more worse. >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rajkamal Goswami >> > ATREE, Bangalore-24 >> > > > > > -- > Rajkamal Goswami > ATREE, Bangalore-24 > From brosius at sai.uni-heidelberg.de Fri Oct 17 15:25:40 2008 From: brosius at sai.uni-heidelberg.de (Christiane Brosius) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:55:40 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <704470.19888.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <704470.19888.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48F8611C.50904@sai.uni-heidelberg.de> dear chanchal please kindly stop burdening this list with the endless boredom of black and white rhetoric of aggressors versus good human beings in this family soap opera with uncles and mothers. If anything, then I guess this list is what it is, NOT because of the reproduction of clichés but because of its challenge to narrow-minded thinking. It should continue to offer new, fresh approaches to a range of topics and not become an old pan on which old food is warmed up once again, who wants to eat this at the end of the day? Christiane chanchal malviya schrieb: > That is true.. you will not die in riots... > Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will accept Islam... > > Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva (Communal)... rest all is secular.. > > We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... this land of Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require people like you who believe in more than one fathers (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we respect them.. but do not want them to hit our father... > > And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why don't you conver to Islam once and for all... At least we will be clear that we are having clear opposition... not confused minds.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, >> subservience and silent suffering? >> Britta >> >> >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: >> >> >>> India is secular: >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >>> have that. >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >>> own motherland >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >>> >>> Not to say the last words.. >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- –œ‡°±· From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 16:17:57 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:17:57 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.? Message-ID: <469555.34578.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Headmistress of which school is asking the students to be quiet.?Is this the  way  to behave in the list.? Moderator please be alert for this inept responses.! ----- Original Message ---- From: Aarti Sethi To: rajendra bhat Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 2:53:15 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.? oh be quiet! On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:28 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: It was a week of rant and rumblings for all citizens about secular india and its life as secular republic. Mr. Asgar Ali Enginneer articulated his observations of secular india, which for most part are accurate and correct about being the citizens going for the crisis in identity of being Indian for the other prioritised identity of being marati, tamil or linguistic id or the caste id in the last sixty years of free India. But all his thoughts were clouded by one black paint, -- his hate for RSS, rastriya swayam sevak sangh.Many "secular" citizens and the followers of other faith have been consistently fed with the pison that RSS is fascist, RSS is against other faiths, RSS does not like muslims, christians etc. RSS ka havva dikake rule karne ka chance ab khatham hogaya, bhai, asgar engineer.   Many citizens now have forgotten the role of RSS in the situations when the nation was facing calamities and crisis. Ofcourse the left parties even today active in propaganda against RSS when they hit out their muslim citizens in singur or nandigram, where muslims peasants and poor villagers were the worst vistims.!  In the last sixty years of free India, there is distinct three generations of indians who have seen free India, -----from 1945 to 1965 as midnight children of free India, who are fed with thaparite history of India, -------from 1965 to 1985 who have seen the free India with all its riots and communal appeasements and the aspirations of citizens being thwarted by dynastic rule of the family and its sycophantic hangers on.The three wars with Pakistan, and china and the role of the left parties during these wars.The role of RSS in national calamity be it kashmir aggression in 1948, be it 1962 chinese aggression when RSS volanteers worked with defence forces in civil control and other duties, or the cyclone in eastern coast of India ,in particular, Andhra where none dared to touch the dead bodies of victims, when RSS volanteers were the ones who gave decent burials and cremation to the dead, irrespective of the faith of the vistims,  is forgotten.During the mergency imposed, the RSS was in the forefront to struggle for the rights and freedom of all citizens, again it never claimed any credit for the work as it is national duty that it performed with its volanteers.  The critical phase is the third phase, the present, where the this generation has citizens who have no respect for their duties but are only concerned about their rights in national life.. From 1985 to now, we have seen the "intellectuals" of the all political spectrum taking the new thoughts of nation without boundaries, walking and talking republic citizens, who want all the rights but do not take any responsibilty for the duties of the citizens.! The very idea of rights without responsibilty  is irresponsible citizenship. Then came the bunch of NGOs, rights activists in this present national life, for whom, the rights means only those rights of deviant citizens.? Law abiding citizens have no rights.? Here lies the danger of undermining the law keepers  by law breakers in free India. It is ridiculous to see the NGOs defending the terror accused of one community only, and the basic fault line lies in law enforcers not acting quickly when any deviant  behaviour occurs. In Godhra, if the action of burning the compartment was violent deviant criminal act, it was expected that the law would take immediate action to prosecute those involved, irrespective of the faith of such criminals, to book, prosecute and punish such deviant crime and behaviour. It did not happen.   In Ayodhya, a dilapidated structure which was not used for prayer offerings for decades was disputed land, pending in the courts for decades, nay almost century.. Prompt action from leadership of all the citizens involved would have ended in harmony and good national life of love and compassion, no, it never happened, a PM used it to appease hindu votes for his decaying oldest party, even though the leader himself was considered honest, Mr. Clean.To balance the act, personal laws of minority was tampered to alimony issues. Now the battle lines were drawn to fight with each other, thanks to this leadership, interference in the internal matters of another nation, Sri Lanka was another hall mark, with LTTE getting overt and covet support from this leader, for which he had to pay with his life., thus dravidian appeasement was the name of the game. With divided citizens along the faith, region and caste lines, who got the benefi to rule.? The lady from the  back alleys of london, a bar tender who was in certificate course in English.But more importantly, the lady represented that 2 percent community, to rule, after the slavery of british days.! Divided citizens today have forgotten that they are indians first, the faith and region have taken over the id. More the division, better it is for the corrupt to rule, and it is easier for the rulers to be dictators.   Wake up, id forgotten citzens, your id is indian, not of any faith in democracy. Otherwise the bishops will take tothe rule with their proxies. ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 7:36:07 AM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray)   2. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray)   3. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Britta Ohm)   4. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Rajkamal Goswami) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:47:14 -0400 From: "Tapas Ray" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" ... and Nepal, which used to be a Hindu state, should be a better place for Ms Vedavati Jogi. I don't know if it still is under the Maoist-led government, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it, and i am sure she would get some support from the ex-king and his people. 2008/10/16 Vedavati Jogi : > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer. > > vedavati > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > From: Javed > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > >      Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos..yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400 From: "Tapas Ray" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID:     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Britta, Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a completely different language, which the rest of the members have no intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the list is not physically wrecked. Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. Tapas 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > subservience and silent suffering? > Britta > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >> India is secular: >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >> have that. >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >> own motherland >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >> >> Not to say the last words.. >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >> because we chose to remain Hindu. >> >> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:32 +0200 From: Britta Ohm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "Tapas Ray" Cc: reader-list at sarai..net Message-ID: <39DF362F-54A9-41EB-BD18-C270BFF883C1 at zedat.fu-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed;     delsp=yes Thank you, Tapas. I had hoped that - by pre-empting foreseeable  arguments - the mob could be at least silenced and vacate the chair  for something nice. It seems to have worked. I know that I don't have  to die in 'riots', but this list occasionally gives you a virtual idea  of how it feels if you have survived. It indeed would be funny if it  wasn't so sad. And do not underestimate the longivity and persistance  of those we think we can laugh off by ignoring their bad breath. It  might be longer than ours. All best -- Britta Am 16.10.2008 um 23:24 schrieb Tapas Ray: > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has  >> been >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the  >> paradigms >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits,  >> the >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, >> subservience and silent suffering? >> Britta >> >> >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: >> >>> India is secular: >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >>> have that. >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >>> own motherland >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >>> >>> Not to say the last words.. >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:35:55 +0530 From: "Rajkamal Goswami" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: Javed Cc: sarai list Message-ID:     <9d0d777b0810161905i76290f09od1006a2b02713595 at mail..gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dear javed, Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult some literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor it ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you understand what secularism means. On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajkamal Goswami ATREE, Bangalore-24 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 *******************************************      Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos..yahoo.com/address From rama.sangye at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 16:18:43 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:18:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW COMMUNAL IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0810170348j646a28d0x5596e7396ccc19c5@mail.gmail.com> There is "secularism" in the Western sense, or the Leftist sense. And there is the understanding of "secularism" as it exists in India. The latter is the former for some, but for most seculars, it means coexistence and respect for all religions and all communities, equality of all religions and communities. I would like to refer friends to my article on the subject - see: http://cuckooscall.blogspot.com/2007/02/building-positive-peace-between-hindu.html I had prepared a bibliography a few years ago, on Hindu-Muslim relations. I would be glad to send that to anyone interested. Its 11 pages or so. best rama From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 17:27:10 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:57:10 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva....who is a fascist...???..... In-Reply-To: References: <79e82f610810132112i436998f4tc14c7bc8eaee7a14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Shudhabrata & Dear Rohan, Well this kind of intellectual misappropriation is often adopted as a means to (mis) represent history in an intended manner or to eulogise or defame .You have done no different. Actually, I am not surprised though but it is sad that you have chosen to selectively pick in portions & mis- interpret text to denigrate a national icon. Please go through the following article by George Orwell. You don’t need to feel embarrassed if you find yourself fitting into one of the categories (of fascists) detailed out in the article. Regards all LA George Orwell What is Fascism? TRIBUNE 1944 Of all the unanswered questions of our time, perhaps the most important is: ‘What is Fascism?’ One of the social survey organizations in America recently asked this question of a hundred different people, and got answers ranging from ‘pure democracy’ to ‘pure diabolism’. In this country if you ask the average thinking person to define Fascism, he usually answers by pointing to the German and Italian régimes. But this is very unsatisfactory, because even the major Fascist states differ from one another a good deal in structure and ideology. It is not easy, for instance, to fit Germany and Japan into the same framework, and it is even harder with some of the small states which are describable as Fascist. It is usually assumed, for instance, that Fascism is inherently warlike, that it thrives in an atmosphere of war hysteria and can only solve its economic problems by means of war preparation or foreign conquests. But clearly this is not true of, say, Portugal or the various South American dictatorships. Or again, antisemitism is supposed to be one of the distinguishing marks of Fascism; but some Fascist movements are not antisemitic. Learned controversies, reverberating for years on end in American magazines, have not even been able to determine whether or not Fascism is a form of capitalism. But still, when we apply the term ‘Fascism’ to Germany or Japan or Mussolini's Italy, we know broadly what we mean. It is in internal politics that this word has lost the last vestige of meaning. For if you examine the press you will find that there is almost no set of people — certainly no political party or organized body of any kind — which has not been denounced as Fascist during the past ten years. Here I am not speaking of the verbal use of the term ‘Fascist’. I am speaking of what I have seen in print. I have seen the words ‘Fascist in sympathy’, or ‘of Fascist tendency’, or just plain ‘Fascist’, applied in all seriousness to the following bodies of people: Conservatives: All Conservatives, appeasers or anti-appeasers, are held to be subjectively pro-Fascist. British rule in India and the Colonies is held to be indistinguishable from Nazism. Organizations of what one might call a patriotic and traditional type are labelled crypto-Fascist or ‘Fascist-minded’. Examples are the Boy Scouts, the Metropolitan Police, M.I.5, the British Legion. Key phrase: ‘The public schools are breeding-grounds of Fascism’. Socialists: Defenders of old-style capitalism (example, Sir Ernest Benn) maintain that Socialism and Fascism are the same thing. Some Catholic journalists maintain that Socialists have been the principal collaborators in the Nazi-occupied countries. The same accusation is made from a different angle by the Communist party during its ultra-Left phases. In the period 1930-35 the Daily Worker habitually referred to the Labour Party as the Labour Fascists. This is echoed by other Left extremists such as Anarchists. Some Indian Nationalists consider the British trade unions to be Fascist organizations. Communists: A considerable school of thought (examples, Rauschning, Peter Drucker, James Burnham, F. A. Voigt) refuses to recognize a difference between the Nazi and Soviet régimes, and holds that all Fascists and Communists are aiming at approximately the same thing and are even to some extent the same people. Leaders in The Times (pre-war) have referred to the U.S.S.R. as a ‘Fascist country’. Again from a different angle this is echoed by Anarchists and Trotskyists. Trotskyists: Communists charge the Trotskyists proper, i.e. Trotsky's own organization, with being a crypto-Fascist organization in Nazi pay. This was widely believed on the Left during the Popular Front period. In their ultra-Right phases the Communists tend to apply the same accusation to all factions to the Left of themselves, e.g. Common Wealth or the I.L.P. Catholics: Outside its own ranks, the Catholic Church is almost universally regarded as pro-Fascist, both objectively and subjectively; War resisters: Pacifists and others who are anti-war are frequently accused not only of making things easier for the Axis, but of becoming tinged with pro-Fascist feeling. Supporters of the war: War resisters usually base their case on the claim that British imperialism is worse than Nazism, and tend to apply the term ‘Fascist’ to anyone who wishes for a military victory. The supporters of the People's Convention came near to claiming that willingness to resist a Nazi invasion was a sign of Fascist sympathies. The Home Guard was denounced as a Fascist organization as soon as it appeared. In addition, the whole of the Left tends to equate militarism with Fascism. Politically conscious private soldiers nearly always refer to their officers as ‘Fascist-minded’ or ‘natural Fascists’. Battle-schools, spit and polish, saluting of officers are all considered conducive to Fascism. Before the war, joining the Territorials was regarded as a sign of Fascist tendencies. Conscription and a professional army are both denounced as Fascist phenomena. Nationalists: Nationalism is universally regarded as inherently Fascist, but this is held only to apply to such national movements as the speaker happens to disapprove of. Arab nationalism, Polish nationalism, Finnish nationalism, the Indian Congress Party, the Muslim League, Zionism, and the I.R.A. are all described as Fascist but not by the same people. * * * It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. Yet underneath all this mess there does lie a kind of buried meaning. To begin with, it is clear that there are very great differences, some of them easy to point out and not easy to explain away, between the régimes called Fascist and those called democratic. Secondly, if ‘Fascist’ means ‘in sympathy with Hitler’, some of the accusations I have listed above are obviously very much more justified than others. Thirdly, even the people who recklessly fling the word ‘Fascist’ in every direction attach at any rate an emotional significance to it. By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come. But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one — not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword. 1944 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC: virtuallyme at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.netFrom: shuddha at sarai.netSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding HindutvaDate: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:35:00 +0530To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com Lalit, Actually, Subhash Chandra Bose, didn't have any problems being called a Fascist. So you don't have to get your knickers in a twist if anyone should choose to call him one. And nor should we have any hesitation in calling him a Fascist. A Fascist is, well, a Fascist. Bose's book, 'The Indian Struggle' which he wrote in Vienna while courting Austrian Fascists in the 1930s actually calls for a synthesis of Fascism and the kind of state being developed in Stalin's Russia. He also courted Mussolini (not very successfully) the most important Italian Fascist politician, in the same period. This is way before the well known alliance with Hitler and Tojo, which most Indian nationalists sort of turn a blind eye to while performing their genuflections to the obscenity of war-time realpolitik. As early as 1930 -- in his inaugural speech as mayor of Calcutta -- Bose first expressed his support for a fusion of socialism and fascism. This is not long after the time when he personally led a lathi charge against a procession of agitating Industrial Workers in Calcutta, who were peacefully asking for the Congress leadership, including Bose, who they thought (mistakenly) would be sympathetic to their demands, to pay some attention to their plight. In doing this, Bose played the role of the Fascist Storm Trooper leader to the hilt, dressed in a quasi military uniform, leading a band of armed thugs on a violent rampage against a peaceful assembly of workers. But it wasn't just the 'fancy-dress' aspects of Fascism that attracted Bose. Let us pay attention to his own words. “... I would say we have here in this policy and program a synthesis of what modern Europe calls Socialism and Fascism. We have here the justice, the equality, the love, which is the basis of Socialism, and combined with that we have the efficiency and the discipline of Fascism as it stands in Europe today.” ( From Bose's inaugural speech of Sept. 24, 1930. Quoted in: Leonard A. Gordon, Brothers Against the Raj: A Biography of Indian Nationalists Sarat and Subhas Chandra Bose (New York: 1990), p. 234.) For example, in late 1944 -- almost a decade-and-a-half later -- in a speech to students at Tokyo University, he asserted that India must have a political system "of an authoritarian character. . . To repeat once again, our philosophy should be a synthesis between National Socialism and Communism." (Speech of November 22, 1944, in S.C. Bose, Fundamental Questions of Indian Revolution (Calcutta: Netaji Research Bureau, 1970), pp. 403-4.) His detailed comments on Fascism in his book The Indian Struggle: 1920-1934, which was first published in 1935, accurately represent the views he held throughout most of his career. This is what he says, for instance about 'Democracy and Freedom' “ It (the future Indian political order) will not stand for a democracy in the Mid-Victorian sense of the term, but will believe in government by a strong party bound together by military discipline, as the only means of holding India together and preventing a chaos, when Indians are free and are thrown entirely on their own resources." Here he is again, on 'Fascism' “One is inclined to hold that the next phase in world- history will produce a synthesis between Communism and Fascism. And will it be a surprise if that synthesis in produced in India?... In spite of the antithesis between Communism and Fascism, there are certain traits in common. Both Communism and Fascism believe in the supremacy of the State over the individual. Both denounce parliamentary democracy. Both believe in party rule. Both believe in the dictatorship of the party and in the ruthless suppression of all dissenting minorities. Both believe in a planned industrial reorganization of the country. These common traits will form the basis of the new synthesis. That synthesis is called by the writer "Samyavada" -- an Indian word, which means literally "the doctrine of synthesis or equality." It will be India's task to work out this synthesis.” Subsequently, in an interview to the British Indian communist journalist, Rajani Palme Dutt, Bose muted his enthusiasm for Fascism somewhat, while not abandoning it altogether, but came back with fulsome endorsements of Fascism as is evident in his speeches and declarations made in Germany and Japan. Bose's was not a the 'fascism of an opportunist'. Rather his occasional 'anti-fascism' was certainly opportunist and totally in keeping with the Machieavellian political personality that he assiduously cultivated for himself. All of this is rather well documented. And all you need to do is to go to any decent research library and look up a few books and documents (the ones I have cited will suffice) to know exactly what Bose thought of Fascism and when he said what he said. I think the fact that Bose either died, or did not choose to appear, or could not choose to appear and stake his claim at the political sweepstakes in India after the transfer of power in 1947 is probably the greatest stroke of good fortune to have befallen the people of this country. I do not suffer from any nostalgia for the Nehruvian epoch. But the banal mediocrity of the Nehru years, in my opinion, are a far cry from the disaster that a combination of Bose and Patel would have meant for India. Bose's dreams for India were a brutal and authoritarian dictatorship, suitably 'Indianized' by a high dose of Vedantic Messianism and somewhat coloured by radical sounding slogans. (In welding this nightmare together, Bose inspired by what he had seen or knew of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan). I am sure that this would have landed us in a far greater mess than we are in already. As always, I would have been happier if our uber-patriotic list members done a little more homework before embarassing themselves and all of us, yet again. best, Shuddha On 15-Oct-08, at 12:12 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: . Netaji Subash Chandra Bose- the hero of the nation had met Hitler & had sought his help in the freedom struggle against the British colonialism. Is he too sought to be declared a fascist? _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 17:32:07 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:32:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.? In-Reply-To: <469555.34578.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <469555.34578.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810170502n57c9f65bpb4399a2e80192b66@mail.gmail.com> dear Rajendra the moment you write " IN AYODHYA, THE DILAPIDATED STRUCTURE" any one on the list will know which school you belong, and i see no harm if people from secular school bluntly says to you : be queit. you need to realize that most of shrines are dilapidated structures, be it a temple or a mosque even. how historicity speaks through these half broken structures is the most intersting thing about human civilization and its past. Offering prayers at a structure does not it meaningful or makes it impotent if there is none. . it is the thing-in-itself which has to be taken in on as it is basis, the only recommended alteration to such things is allowed through retoration of it, but never its demolition. now.if you think that we too should be quite, then you are again wasting your time on the List. because your way of living is markedly different from those who want to question the violence. Sacred texts are calling you, and those politicians urgently need you who mix hinduism and nationalism in on go. A true secular school is interested in ethics, justice moral judgement and respect to the other, there is no space for violence, any kind of violence. We need to know what is tolerance all about. It is entirely about the other. so my dear friend, i know you are not alone, on the list or out there, but i have no choice but to oppose the kind of thinking you are trying to impose on others. i have nothing but love for you is On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 4:17 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Headmistress of which school is asking the students to be quiet.?Is this the way > to behave in the list.? > Moderator please be alert for this inept responses.! > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Aarti Sethi > To: rajendra bhat > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 2:53:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.? > > > oh be quiet! > > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:28 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > > It was a week of rant and rumblings for all citizens about secular india and its life as secular republic. Mr. Asgar Ali Enginneer articulated his observations of secular india, which for most part are accurate and correct about being the citizens going for the crisis in identity of being Indian for the other prioritised identity of being marati, tamil or linguistic id or the caste id in the last sixty years of free India. But all his thoughts were clouded by one black paint, -- his hate for RSS, rastriya swayam sevak sangh.Many "secular" citizens and the followers of other faith have been consistently fed with the pison that RSS is fascist, RSS is against other faiths, RSS does not like muslims, christians etc. RSS ka havva dikake rule karne ka chance ab khatham hogaya, bhai, asgar engineer. > > Many citizens now have forgotten the role of RSS in the situations when the nation was facing calamities and crisis. Ofcourse the left parties even today active in propaganda against RSS when they hit out their muslim citizens in singur or nandigram, where muslims peasants and poor villagers were the worst vistims.! > > In the last sixty years of free India, there is distinct three generations of indians who have seen free India, -----from 1945 to 1965 as midnight children of free India, who are fed with thaparite history of India, > -------from 1965 to 1985 who have seen the free India with all its riots and communal appeasements and the aspirations of citizens being thwarted by dynastic rule of the family and its sycophantic hangers on.The three wars with Pakistan, and china and the role of the left parties during these wars.The role of RSS in national calamity be it kashmir aggression in 1948, be it 1962 chinese aggression when RSS volanteers worked with defence forces in civil control and other duties, or the cyclone in eastern coast of India ,in particular, Andhra where none dared to touch the dead bodies of victims, when RSS volanteers were the ones who gave decent burials and cremation to the dead, irrespective of the faith of the vistims, is forgotten.During the mergency imposed, the RSS was in the forefront to struggle for the rights and freedom of all citizens, again it never claimed any credit for the work as it is national duty that it performed with its volanteers. > > The critical phase is the third phase, the present, where the this generation has citizens who have no respect for their duties but are only concerned about their rights in national life.. From 1985 to now, we have seen the "intellectuals" of the all political spectrum taking the new thoughts of nation without boundaries, walking and talking republic citizens, who want all the rights but do not take any responsibilty for the duties of the citizens.! The very idea of rights without responsibilty is irresponsible citizenship. Then came the bunch of NGOs, rights activists in this present national life, for whom, the rights means only those rights of deviant citizens.? Law abiding citizens have no rights.? Here lies the danger of undermining the law keepers by law breakers in free India. It is ridiculous to see the NGOs defending the terror accused of one community only, and the basic fault line lies in law enforcers not acting quickly when any deviant > behaviour occurs. In Godhra, if the action of burning the compartment was violent deviant criminal act, it was expected that the law would take immediate action to prosecute those involved, irrespective of the faith of such criminals, to book, prosecute and punish such deviant crime and behaviour. It did not happen. > > In Ayodhya, a dilapidated structure which was not used for prayer offerings for decades was disputed land, pending in the courts for decades, nay almost century.. Prompt action from leadership of all the citizens involved would have ended in harmony and good national life of love and compassion, no, it never happened, a PM used it to appease hindu votes for his decaying oldest party, even though the leader himself was considered honest, Mr. Clean.To balance the act, personal laws of minority was tampered to alimony issues. Now the battle lines were drawn to fight with each other, thanks to this leadership, interference in the internal matters of another nation, Sri Lanka was another hall mark, with LTTE getting overt and covet support from this leader, for which he had to pay with his life., thus dravidian appeasement was the name of the game. With divided citizens along the faith, region and caste lines, who got the benefi to rule.? The lady from the > back alleys of london, a bar tender who was in certificate course in English.But more importantly, the lady represented that 2 percent community, to rule, after the slavery of british days.! Divided citizens today have forgotten that they are indians first, the faith and region have taken over the id. More the division, better it is for the corrupt to rule, and it is easier for the rulers to be dictators. > > Wake up, id forgotten citzens, your id is indian, not of any faith in democracy. Otherwise the bishops will take tothe rule with their proxies. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 7:36:07 AM > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray) > 2. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray) > 3. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Britta Ohm) > 4. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Rajkamal Goswami) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:47:14 -0400 > From: "Tapas Ray" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > ... and Nepal, which used to be a Hindu state, should be a better > place for Ms Vedavati Jogi. I don't know if it still is under the > Maoist-led government, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it, and i am > sure she would get some support from the ex-king and his people. > > > > 2008/10/16 Vedavati Jogi : >> i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer. >> >> vedavati >> >> --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: >> >> From: Javed >> Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> To: "sarai list" >> Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM >> >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> >> Asghar Ali Engineer >> >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) >> >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well >> as linguistic. >> >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. >> >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very >> articulate and loud. >> >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. >> >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. >> >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. >> >> Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. >> >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. >> >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining >> districts, is indeed hair raising. >> >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? >> >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers >> just look on. >> >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. >> >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact >> with America than the communal explosion back home. >> >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such >> license to function freely. >> >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as >> never before. >> >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. >> >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is >> 'shameful'. >> >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for >> its complete inability to control communal violence. >> >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and >> Hitler. >> >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. >> >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded >> terrorists'. >> >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and >> play determined role things can get far more worse. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos..yahoo.com/address >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400 > From: "Tapas Ray" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, >> subservience and silent suffering? >> Britta >> >> >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: >> >>> India is secular: >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >>> have that. >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >>> own motherland >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >>> >>> Not to say the last words.. >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. >>> >>> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:32 +0200 > From: Britta Ohm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Tapas Ray" > Cc: reader-list at sarai..net > Message-ID: <39DF362F-54A9-41EB-BD18-C270BFF883C1 at zedat.fu-berlin.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed; > delsp=yes > > Thank you, Tapas. I had hoped that - by pre-empting foreseeable > arguments - the mob could be at least silenced and vacate the chair > for something nice. It seems to have worked. I know that I don't have > to die in 'riots', but this list occasionally gives you a virtual idea > of how it feels if you have survived. It indeed would be funny if it > wasn't so sad. And do not underestimate the longivity and persistance > of those we think we can laugh off by ignoring their bad breath. It > might be longer than ours. > All best -- Britta > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 23:24 schrieb Tapas Ray: > >> Britta, >> >> Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... >> at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... >> can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts >> sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply >> filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep >> ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their >> territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. >> When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. >> >> They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a >> completely different language, which the rest of the members have no >> intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad >> nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as >> you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the >> time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the >> list is not physically wrecked. >> >> Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. >> >> Tapas >> >> >> 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : >>> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has >>> been >>> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the >>> paradigms >>> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible >>> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I >>> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse >>> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not >>> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to >>> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, >>> the >>> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. >>> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, >>> subservience and silent suffering? >>> Britta >>> >>> >>> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: >>> >>>> India is secular: >>>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >>>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >>>> have that. >>>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >>>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >>>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >>>> own motherland >>>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >>>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >>>> >>>> Not to say the last words.. >>>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >>>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >>>> because we chose to remain Hindu. >>>> >>>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > ___________________ > > Britta Ohm > Postdoc > University of Zurich > UPRP Asia and Europe > > Office: > Scheuchzerstr. 21 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 > fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 > britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch > www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch > > Home: > Solmsstr. 36 > 10961 Berlin > Germany > +49-(0)30-695 07 155 > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > Ekkehardstr. 18 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > +41-(0)43-2689077 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:35:55 +0530 > From: "Rajkamal Goswami" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: Javed > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: > <9d0d777b0810161905i76290f09od1006a2b02713595 at mail..gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Dear javed, > Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult some > literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not > grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor it > ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you > understand what secularism means. > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: > >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> >> Asghar Ali Engineer >> >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) >> >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well >> as linguistic. >> >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. >> >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very >> articulate and loud. >> >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. >> >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. >> >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. >> >> Now theidentity politics soared quite high and national ethos >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. >> >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. >> >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining >> districts, is indeed hair raising. >> >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? >> >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers >> just look on. >> >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. >> >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact >> with America than the communal explosion back home. >> >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such >> license to function freely. >> >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as >> never before. >> >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. >> >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is >> 'shameful'. >> >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for >> its complete inability to control communal violence. >> >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and >> Hitler. >> >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. >> >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded >> terrorists'. >> >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and >> play determined role things can get far more worse. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > > -- > Rajkamal Goswami > ATREE, Bangalore-24 > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 > ******************************************* > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos..yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 17:40:38 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:40:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Islamists force removal of Baul Sculptures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70810170510r6e5338cfh2c9b80d374b872f8@mail.gmail.com> it is all sad On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Baul/Lalan Shah statues have been removed after Islamist protests. > Left activists are wearing gamcha in protest today. Once again, > bullying a spineless state works wonders for the jongi mollah squad. > Today I'm so angry, I can't give a **** about using sensitive words to > describe my opponents. Why can the Islamists threaten to topple the > state and everyone believes them and the left can't mount the same > threat (at all!) in Bangladesh? > > angry angry angry > ################# > Sculptures near ZIA removed after protests > Staff Correspondent > > Daily Star > http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=58970 > > The Roads and Highways Department (RHD) and Civil Aviation Authority > of Bangladesh (CAAB) were forced to remove five sculptures of Bauls > (folk singers) including Lalon Shah in front of the Zia International > Airport in the face of protests from an Islamist group. > > Sculptor Mrinal Haque told reporters that almost 50 percent task of > the Tk 1crore project had been finished at a cost of around Tk 50 > lakh. > > Two of the five sculptures had been removed by yesterday evening while > the rest was to be removed by midnight, Officer-in-Charge (OC) of the > Airport Police Station Sirajul Islam told the Daily Star. > > He said the erection of the sculptures began about a month ago. > > Earlier, Murti Protirodh Committee (Sculpture Prevention Committee) > led by Khatme Nabuat Chairman Mufti Nur Hossain Nurani gave an > ultimatum of 24 hours for removal of the sculptures. > > Witnesses said around 2,000 people gathered in the area when the task > of removing the sculptures began at about 11:00am. > > The OC quoting the committee leaders said they do not want any > sculptures in the airport area where the hajj camp is located. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 18:01:02 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:01:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? In-Reply-To: <155711.67124.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <155711.67124.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810170531x7855cda0ye0f49cffc1ca71c6@mail.gmail.com> dear Kshmendra logically you are right, like efficient advocate, but what you miss is the subject logic is not the only key to all the kinds of discourses in the world. one was the simple forward of a news item on Zardari which was meant to appease the USA, and other was about a deep thing, it prompted me to write on death, intense subject, i like to talk about it endlessly. besides that, i find most of your reflection on List quite interesting and not in variance with what i think, be it caste or understanding of religion. there is nothing wrong to be boldly known as kashmiri pandit, but a sudden solidarity in support of KP brethren make it a little shallow. with due regards to your observation on my different take on matters which are similar. we differ on understanding on kashmir, but that normal. kashmir is a subject which generates outlooks, we are not the only exceptions. needless to say that how many times my identity as INDER SALIM has been abused by the same KP brethren, and your silence on that disappointed me. truly. i am really expecting much more than what you tell us through your reflections. you certainly have cultivated a better logistic than me, but as my younger brother, i suggest you to be cooler with lot of love is On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Syed Yunus > > Were you suggesting that I had maligned Inder Salim? > > If not, then please ignore this post and read no further. > > On the other hand if you were actually suggesting that I had maligned Inder Salim then I would request you to think before making such foolish pronouncements. > > To malign someone is to accuse them falsely of something. > > I highlighted two resposnes of Inder Salim to two identical types of postings. I highlighted his hypocrisy in berating one for posting a News Item and praising another one for doing the same. Those were representations of Inder Salim's contradictions. > > Where was the maligning if what i presented was factual? Think. Think Think. > > Now there is a new question (inspired by your very own): > > How should one consider this person Syed Yunus who MALIGNED me by falsely accusing me of maligning someone?????? > > I hope the List Administrator makes a note of your having MALIGNED me. > > Kshmendra > > ( I would have sent this as a private mail if not for the fact that you MALIGNED me in the 'public space' of this List) > > > > - On Mon, 10/13/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > > From: Syed Yunus > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 11:25 AM > > > Im not interested in ' how should one consider this person Inder salim' but im concern about how should one person consider people, who say, write, & lobby to malign somebody. > > > On 10/12/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > What should one call it when a person condemns an act by someone and praises an identical act by someone else? > > ACT A ------ > > On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K Militants are terrorists : Pakistan President". He reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. > > He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and important statement from Pakistan President .........". > > (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan Durrani --------- " WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . > HUMBLY > IS > > ACT B ------- > > One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, Naeem Mohaimen posts "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself". He too reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. > > Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item. > > Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- "thanks for forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all over the world." > > How should one consider this person Inder Salim? > > This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator similarly displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one person for abusive language and not having taken similar action against another person who also had used abusive language ( equally abusive and crude) > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 19:21:02 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:51:02 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: <208641.74105.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <208641.74105.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshmendra, It is a matter of satisfaction that we shear certain common concerns particularly on the menace of pan Islamism driven terrorism that is responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Hindu Pandits in Kashmir & is now increasingly targeting rest of India. That we both happen to be Kashmir Hindu Pandits is a mere coincidence & this is in no way a binding on both of us to agree or disagree on a particular topic. But as members of the exiled community it is desirable though again not imperative to hold similar opinion on the stated position of the community on issues like our forced exodus, our firm belief that Kashmir is an integral part of India, our commitment to return back to the valley etc. I am in total agreement with you on the issue of certain degraded practices within the Hindu fold which you have rightly observed as being against the ‘Dharmic treatise’. But I do not agree that it is being ‘unfortunate’ to be a Hindu on this account. You are Kashmiri Pandit – you are a Hindu .One can’t be an escapist. It is a collective responsibility. We speak so much on this forum with a concern- why can’t we do something about the ills ‘with in’ too. The reformers have to come from within the fold .Please try it out. I think as a Hindu you have every right to voice concerns that disturb you. By the way, you never christened yourself as a Hindu yourself. This is how we were described by explorers (….???.) when they touched (…???..) our shores. Interestingly, today if you are an Indian passport holder irrespective of whether you are a Hindu, Muslim, Christian, atheist, agnostic, a Marxist or a capitalist if you are asked to identify your nationality in Arabic you know the answer- “ona al Hindi” . Yes, integrity of India can not be allowed to be challenged. It is a serious issue & my posts on this forum are often on this subject. Hindu Pandits were subjected to ethnic cleansing in the valley because they were Hindus & they symbolised Indian presence in Kashmir. Today pan Islamism inspired terrorism is perceived to be a global threat. Look what is happening in Pakistan now – innocent Pakistanis falling prey to something that was meant to inflict cuts on India. It saddens me to see a young man from Bangluru going all the way to UK only to blow himself up at Glasgow – it is a young Indian life lost. Who knows he could have grown to be a great space scientist. That is why I keep pleading against any such move that justifies terrorism by attributing it to perceived injustice or deprivation to garner votes of a particular community. Inter communal disharmony i has also its roots in history as well as politics of appeasement. I am proud of being an Indian, a Kashmiri & a Hindu. I find it repulsive to relate patriotism to faith as I believe that India belongs to all Indians & hope & prey that we all learn to own it. And I do not find it necessary to analyse the said article that as you have rightly pointed out is full of ‘unwarranted generalisation’ & ‘superficial comments’. Regards all LA ------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 04:37:54 -0700From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding HindutvaTo: virtuallyme at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net; lalitambardar at hotmail.com Dear Lalit I did not see any 'Hindu bashing' in the article "Understanding Hindutva" by Averthanus L. D'Souza. I thought he made some unwarranted generalisations at a few places and made a few superficial comments but there was no 'Hindu bashing'. Lalit, I happen to be a Kashmiri Pandit and I am quite connected with that identity. Because of that I get to be seen as a Hindu too. I consider that unfortunate but I have no choice in that. Explaining 'unfortunate', in general I have a lot of contempt for very many of the rituals, precepts that are recognised as being Hindu but are far removed from the Heritage of Dharmic Treatises with which these degraded practices and thoughts get indistiguishably linked because of the Hindu tag. My 'spiritual food' is provided by "Dharma" but my recorded religion is Hinduism. I have deep concerns about many acts and propagations in the name of Hinduism and Hindus with which I too get linked because of my being a Hindu on the records. I am allowed those concerns, am I not? My ultimate societal identity is of an Indian. It is my primary identity. All my other identities or identifications are secondary in nature because their existence and/or practice is possible only under the enabling environment (Constitution) that ensures and testifies to my primary identity of being an Indian. Any word or act that directly or indirectly threatens to disintegrate India which is the enabler of my primary identity will be seen by me with deep concern. It does not matter what the rationale, justification or philosophy or ideology might be used in support of any such act or word. It does not matter whether it is "Hindu" or "Islamic" or "Christian" etc or "Atheist" or "Agnostic" or "Marxist" or "Capitalist" etc. I thought the article made some excellent points and at very many places faithfully articulated my own thoughts/feelings/concerns. - Is there a concept of Hindutva that is sought to be put into practice? Yes there is. - Do all "Hindus" subscribe to this concept of Hindutva? No they do not. - Is an attack on "Hindutva" therefore an attack on Hindus or on Hinduism? No it is not. The article has covered the elemental beliefs of the Hindutva philosophy. I see that you have not contested those as being incorrect. Propagation and/or microcosmic practice of Hindutva will create nothing but turmoil and strife in India. Hindutva therefore becomes the enemy of India and my enemy. There is no difference between it and the vision of a Pan-Islamic World that you yourself often speak against. How can you condemn one and not the other? Hindutva translated into reality will mean the disintegration of India. Hindutva therefore becomes the enemy of India and my enemy. How can it be acceptable to me as an Indian? It is not. Hindutva is not acceptable to me as a "Hindu" or a Kashmiri Pandit either. Kshmendra --- On Wed, 10/15/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: From: Lalit Ambardar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding HindutvaTo: "Rohan DSouza" , reader-list at sarai.netDate: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 12:12 AMNothing new - routine Hindu bashing on this forum. Doesn't deserve any response. But still a few observations to help you guys to know your nation better. Netaji Subash Chandra Bose- the hero of the nation had met Hitler & had sought his help in the freedom struggle against the British colonialism. Is he too sought to be declared a fascist? Following sentences in the article itself contradict the very claim in the article that tribals aren't Hindus: In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism> is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular> practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna> tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through> that very path." And this is precisely why Hindus are traditionally secular. Why is it that faith of innocents is being sought in exchange for so called charity? Who dedicated this century to 'one' particular 'faith' in Asia ? It is preposterous to attribute motives to Swami Vivekananda's famous visit to the USA. Hindus have welcome all persecuted communities from world over. It is only in india that Jews never faced any persecution. India is not secular just because the secularism is enshrined in the constitution of India- it is because Hindus are secular & they constitute a majority in this country. Name the country that practices secularism that prevails here . Remember what the Australian PM advised his Muslim subjects recently. It is ironic that it is the very Hindu who is being now taught the lessons on secularism. Who sought the two nation theory based partition of India? Why are you self proclaimed secularists silent over the 'ethnic cleansing' of a minority Hindu Pandit community in Kashmir by those kalashnikov wielding pan Islamists who are seeking 'azadi bara e islam'( freedom through Islam) in kashmir? You know what that former PM was doing when Hindu Pandits were being butchered in the streets of Kashmir- he was having 'laddos' with that known part politician Imam , celebrating his win. Instead of digging in to the history of 'yours' ( that earlier said Ram did not exist & now claims Ram only ordered sethu demolishing), why don't we stick to the idea of India that remained after its vivisection ( Muslims demanded & they were granted land in 1947), that vowed inspite of provocations, to continue to adhere to the Hindu tradition of secularism . Is Shyama Prasad Mukherjee a fascist just because he opposed the then prevailing system of entry in to the state of J&K through permit/visa? It is not to justify any kind of violence. Stop being myopic .This nation belongs to all its citizens. Let us build it on its own traditions. Regards all LA > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:42:13 +0530> From: virtuallyme at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > Dear All,> > Am forwarding an interesting article which explores the concept of Hindutva> and tries to point out the differences between it and Hinduism. The author> puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a political project, grounded in> the principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating and maintaining> an authoritarian state, with suppressive control over human beings.> > He also brings out the difference between the inclusive, open approach of> Hinduism and the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva.> > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there have been many> discussions around similar issues.> > Regards,> Rohan> ________________________________________________________________________> ________________________________________________________________________> UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L. D'Souza.> Posted by: "SJPRASHANT, Ahmedabad" sjprashant at gmail.com> Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT))> > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA> - Averthanus L. D'Souza.> > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a former Secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad> (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus are the Muslims, the> Christians, the Hindu intellectuals and the media." It is very significant> as well as intriguing that Vispute included the Hindu intellectuals and the> media in his category of the "enemies" of Hindus. It does not take great> intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this statement by a very> prominent Hindutva promoter. It is quite obvious that Hindu intellectuals> (nor any other reasonably educated person for that matter) will refuse to> swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by the Hindutva> propagandists to arouse anger and hatred against Muslims and Christians,> for which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person (including Hindu> "intellectuals") will see through the falsity of the arguments which the VHP> advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely because the position of the> Hindutva campaign is irrational and untenable that the propagandists prefer> to recruit uneducated and unthinking followers who can easily be manipulated> to believe anything that is fed to them. The Bajrang Dal, which is> considered to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of the VHP is a good> example of uneducated youth, with more passion than reason, who are willing> to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are conditioned to> believe that heroism consists in slaughtering helpless women and children,> and burning innocent people alive. In this respect the Bajrang Dal is no> different from the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the youth brigades of the> other fascist movements in Europe who were used to terrorize the population> into submission. With their saffron head-bands and wielding 'trishuls',> and screaming full-throated war-cries, these rampaging gangs can cause> terror anywhere - which is precisely what they are trained to do. They are> 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of the morality of the orders or> the consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent RSS leader,> personally met the Italian fascist leader Benito Mussolini in Rome on 19> March, 1931, visited some important military schools and educational> institutions and became acquainted with the Balilla and the Avanguardisti> organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the keystone of the fascist> system is the 'indoctrination' of youths, rather than education. This is> the foundation on which the Bajrang Dal is built.> > While cultivated ignorance of the youth is one facet which is promoted by> the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate falsification of current facts as well> as of History is another method of indoctrination used. Lal .Krishna.> Advani closely studied the system of propaganda developed by Nazi Germany.> He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action developed two other> distinctive characteristics: firstly, adoption of propaganda as a key> instrument of State policy; and secondly, the systematic development of a> demonology to keep the masses in a mood of perpetual tension and hysteria."> (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's Scrap Book" ) Advani and his colleagues have> tried hard to refine and improve upon the propaganda-cum-terror machinery> which was developed by Nazi Germany, specially by Hitler's most trusted> lieutenant Paul Joseph Goebbels, whose name has now become synonymous with> high-voltage mendacious propaganda.> > One of the more prominent falsifications which the Hindutva protagonists are> propagating is that Hindutva is an integral part of Hinduism. No sensible> person, (including thinking Hindus) accepts this claim. In fact, the vast> majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of Hinduism with> Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly respected religion of long standing. It> is recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one of the oldest> religions in human history. It outlived the ancient religions of the> Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks and the Egyptians.> Hinduism has always been associated with 'sanatana' which denotes> timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has never been associated with any> particular political system; nor has it ever shown a preference for any> particular cultural context. In the broadest sense of the word, Hinduism> is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of rituals, beliefs, popular> practices and dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna> tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path men come to me, I accept them through> that very path."> > In sharp contrast to Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is a clearly> distinguishable "political" ideology which is straining to concoct a> "national" identity based on the Hindu religion. Hindutva is a clearly> fascist political movement, which has drawn much of its inspiration from> European fascism and German Nazism. The most prominent protagonists of> Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav Sadashiv> Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama Prasad Mukherjee (1901 - 1953) among> others, have derived their ideologies from European fascism and modified it> to suit Indian conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the "International> General Secretary" of the VHP explicitly says that India is a Hindu Rashtra> since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a religion but a synonym for Hindu> nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that the rejection of> the claims of Hindutva cannot be construed as being anti-Hinduism. In> fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of Hinduism by the Hindutva> brigade that the Hindu intellectuals have rejected it. The Hindutva> fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between Hindutva and Hinduism.> They have been able to increase their popularity because they repeat the> (false) propaganda that the promotion of Hindutva is the promotion of> Hinduism> > There are many distortions which the Hindutva fascists have wrought on> Hinduism. Suffice it to indicate only a few blatant contradictions in> their propaganda.> > One: Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu "Rashtra". The> secularism enshrined in the Indian Constitution is violently rejected by the> Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they have made a conscious and> vigorous effort to create an "international" Hindu community. The> formation of the "World Hindu Council" and the creation of the post of an> "International General Secretary" of the VHP is a clear contradiction of the> claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of creating a Hindu> "nation." This contradiction is obvious to every sane person, except, of> course, the rabid Hindutva ideologues.> > The claim made by Pravin Togadia that Hindutva as a "Rashtra" has existed> since millennia is patently false. By all historical accounts, whether in> ancient or mediaeval India, there were several "kingdoms" or "empires."> Among the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan empire of> Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326 B.C. to 184 B.C.) and the Asokan empire> (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other lesser kingdoms like> those of Kushana. In the south there were the numerous kingdoms of> Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan dynasty and the> Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to 1567 A.D.) and the better known Maratha> Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the course of history, all> these kingdoms were in conflict with one or another with a view to expand> their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had been taken away by force.> There was never a "nation" called India. Even after the gaining of> political independence from Britain in 1947, it was left to Sardar> Vallabhbhai Patel to consolidate the various major and minor kingdoms into a> unified Nation. It is indisputable that it was under Pandit Jawaharlal> Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called "Princely States" were> abolished and integrated into the State of India, which, for the first time> in its entire history adopted a Constitution which was to govern the> "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim that India was always a Hindu> "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it is still seeking to "create"> the Hindu Rashtra of its dream.> > Two: the VHP claims that people who profess and practice other religions> cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This is in stark contradiction to the> repeated statements made by the Hindutva leaders that Hindutva is a> "secular" concept. In fact, they claim that they are secular precisely> because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being "pseudo-secular."> They continue to trumpet this obvious contradiction that only Hindus are> secular and the followers of all other religions are not secular. Yet,> they also claim that Hindutva is a "composite" culture which embraces a> variety of religions, cults, languages and ethnic cultures. The Hindutva> ideologues have never been able to reconcile this glaring contradiction in> their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other ethnic cultures, why is it> that they are systematically forcing tribals (who are not, and never have> been, Hindu) to "convert" to Hinduism? On the one hand they have> sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion" legislation in many States;> because they are ostensibly opposed to conversions by force, fraud or> inducements; yet on the other hand, they themselves are forcibly> "converting" tribals, members of scheduled castes and followers of other> religions. They offer the lame and unconvincing argument that they are only> bringing back these people to the Hindu fold. They have called this> movement a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the tribals have never been> Hindu. They have their own culture, religion and social practices. "Ghar> vapasi" in their case simply does not make any sense. Former Indian Prime> Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that "ultimately what they are> aiming at is authoritarian rule. Then not only will the minorities be> targeted, but also those who do not agree with them. You will be declared an> anti-national and treated thus."> > One of the more prominent characteristics of any dictatorial political> movement is the systematic creation of confusion in the minds of the> citizens so that they can never be sure of what the truth is. This is done> in two ways. One is to spread rumours through the cadres of grassroots> level workers, and another is to simultaneously issue "official" statements> "clarifying" the official position on any particular issue. This is a very> subtle psychological game which is being played by the top leadership of the> Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and not fall into the> trap which is deliberately created by the Hindutva ideologues. A glaringly> example of this "double-speak" is the fact that the Bajrang Dal leaders in> Karnataka have openly stated on TV channels that they are responsible for> the attacks against Christian churches, institutions and personnel. At the> same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the VHP leadership insist> that the Bajrang Dal had nothing to do with the attacks.> > There are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal of the Sangh> Parivar to be treated at length in a brief essay, but this short analysis> will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions:> > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu Solidarity.> > The entire Hindutva movement is grounded on the principle that India is a> Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights of citizenship in India.> In this view, Muslims and Christians, in particular, but also Jews,> Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as non-Indian. Each time a violent> attack is carried out against Muslims or Christians, the Bajrang Dal> terrorists shout that the Muslims and Christians should either become Hindus> or leave the country. Islam and Christianity are considered to be> "impositions" by foreign Muslim conquerors or by Western Christian> missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S. Golwalkar are very> explicit about this. According to them, non-Hindus cannot enjoy rights of> citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned that their continued> presence in India is entirely dependent on the "goodwill" of the Hindus and> the Christians are "advised" to form an Indian Church under the complete> control of the Indian Government, similar to the National Church in China.> The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only those who sever> their links with any international community and become entirely Hindu will> be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India.> > The stark contradiction in this position is the fact that Hindutva is Not> confined to the geographical territory of India; it is sought to be made an> international religion. Ever since the famous Parliament of Religions was> addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the "missionary" dimension of> Hinduism was begun with the formation of the Vedanta Society in 1893 in New> York. Today there are Hindu "missions" all over the world, in the U.S.A.,> in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the West Indies, and in South Africa.> The claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a Hindu "Rashtra," is,> therefore, patently false. The comparison with the expansionist movement> of Nazi Germany is too striking to be missed. First it started with the> unification of German speaking countries; then it was extended to include> all people of Aryan ethnic stock. Since racial characteristics could not be> "assimilated" the Nazis began a systematic extermination, first of the> Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races. The Hindutva claim to> form a Hindu Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud perpetrated by the> Hindutva ideologues. From a close examination of the literature available,> it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to establish a theocratic Hindu> State in India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of neighbouring> Pakistan.> > Tolerance v/s xenophobia.> > Another myth which has been created by the Hindutva protagonists is the> claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and is based on secular values.> This is far from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly intolerant movement> which thrives on spreading hatred and fear among people. In fact it is so> intolerant that it seeks to re-write history, which, according to it, has> been written by "pseudo-secularists." Its distortion of history is so> blatant that it has even created the myth that Asoka and Chandragupta> Maurya were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification of History. All> reliable sources tell us that Asoka ruled over a Buddhist kingdom, and that> Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the Jaina tradition. The> Hindutva view of history is not based on scientific research, but on an> imagination running wild. The Hindutva "historians" are worthy disciples> of Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and over again, people> will soon begin to accept it as the truth.> > If Hindutva is a tolerant political ideology which respects secular values,> why is it that in all the States which are ruled by the BJP there is a> systematic attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is it that tribals,> who are not, and never have been, Hindu are being terrorized into converting> to Hinduism?> > The Hindutva fanatics claim that they are against conversion by force, fraud> or by material inducements. In fact they accuse the Christians of having> converted Hindus by offering such material inducements. Yet, the duplicity> of their claims is starkly evident in the fact that wherever they have> attacked the Christians, independent Commissions of Enquiry have not been> able to confirm a single case of conversion by the use of fraud, force or> material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear about such> conversions. If the Hindutva terrorists have any evidence of such> conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. Instead, they resort to> violence and terror against helpless, innocent and weak communities. They> themselves use force to (re)convert people.> > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations of falsehood, force and> terror. In times of natural calamities, like the earthquake in Gujarat,> they prevented anyone else from assisting the affected people. They sought> exclusive rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this aid in a highly> reprehensible manner. Muslim victims were carefully and deliberately> excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that they swore to> remain or to become Hindu. There is voluminous evidence of such> discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And these very people> claim that Hindutva is a humanitarian and generous movement.> > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the Hindutva movement. They> should examine all their claims critically; and most of all, citizens> should not be beguiled into believing that the Hindutva movement has any> redeeming features. It is an unmitigated evil.> > The battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all faiths, varieties of> cultures and languages, are facing a grave threat to the secular,> democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We need to join> forces to defeat the evil forces of fascism and authoritarianism. The> fight is not between Hinduism and other religions. The fight is really> between secularism and democracy, on the one hand, and fascism on the other.> > Averthanus L. D'Souza,> D-13, La Marvel Colony,> Dona Paula, Goa 403 004.> Tel: 2453628> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From rohitism at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 20:01:10 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:01:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] With a pinch of salt Message-ID: I came across this definition, which I thought the members of this list might find interesting...:-)) *Fanatic:* One who can't change his mind nor change the topic Love, Rohit From project.labels at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 20:29:37 2008 From: project.labels at gmail.com (Raheema Begum) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:29:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ARE YOU CONVINCED YET? Message-ID: ALL!! INDIA PAKISTAN BANGLADESH.NO BORDER!! AAP KYA SOCHTE HAIN? FIND OUT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!! TAKE THIS SPECIAL POLL.ONLY FOR TONIGHT.RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!! http://onestatesolution.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/are-you-convinced-yet/ -- From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 20:59:09 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 08:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ARE YOU CONVINCED YET? Message-ID: <326534.79192.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> These geographical borders have lost their meaning in today's world.People and their cultures are same across these borders.It is high time we start thinking in terms of unification. Regards, Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Raheema Begum To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 7:59:37 AM Subject: [Reader-list] ARE YOU CONVINCED YET? ALL!! INDIA PAKISTAN BANGLADESH.NO BORDER!! AAP KYA SOCHTE HAIN? FIND OUT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!! TAKE THIS SPECIAL POLL.ONLY FOR TONIGHT.RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!! http://onestatesolution.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/are-you-convinced-yet/ -- Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 21:38:38 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <19670.73842.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Even if you are without religion, you will not be spared.. Read the texts... you are a Non-Believer.. it is that simple...   And do not hype about Hindutva.. Hinduism is the lone faith which do not talk about Religion... Yet it is hated...by I don't know.. I shall call them by people of lost world.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Britta Ohm To: chanchal malviya Cc: Tapas Ray ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:03:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? There is no guarantee, apparently, that Tapas will not die in a 'riot' - which he himself is very aware of and which your whole rhetoric, Chanchal, moves even more into the realm of likelihood. It is also not any more self-evident that I will not die in a pogrom when I come to India next and travel to Orissa or Gujarat again, because I might be mistaken for a Christian, even though I am without religion - not the same as secular - but these are precisely the small differentiations that do not count in the face of a caricatured 'Bharat Mata' (who would, I'm sure, cringe at what you're doing to her if she could). The reactions to Samina's wonderful and important piece - that fell victim to 'editorial necessities' (??) at India Today - have again, in the foreseeable fashion, undercrored this. The unwillingness to accept differentiations - rather than essentialising 'cultural differences' - is tantamount to the refusal to accept plurality. The resulting form of uncompromising hatred against minorities and their varied existences that has taken root in India over the past two decades deeply scares me and many others, particularly because it is increasingly carried, enacted and formulated by parts of the population itself, even if it still thrives most where the state and para-state organisations lend legitimacy to it.  I know that there is no use trying to discuss with you, Chanchal, or with the rest of the Hindutva mob on this list, that pedagogical and reasonable explanations and enlightenment are lost on you. It is as fruitless virtually as it is on the street, or, for that matter, in a seminar room - because it is a myth that Hindutva only appeals to non-intellectuals. I know your 'arguments', so please, kindly, spare me - or erupt again, if you can't help it, it hardly makes a difference. And that's the actually scary part, the communication breakdown. But maybe you can give it a thought that nobody on this list has so far called for your expellation or has suggested you find other fora to express your views. What do you think it means that people here endure your discriminations and calls for conversions without calling for your own? Could it have something to do with democracy? In the face of the latter's volatile situation, however, what is left, it seems, is to use the 'points' you keep raising as a documentation of this hatred, particularly for those in the 'West', who are in the wake of the 'war on terror' partly re-inforced in their  romanticist ideas of 'tolerant Hindus' and 'aggressive Muslims'. I'm attaching an article of mine that was published in the EPW in December last year, just before the Assembly elections in Gujarat. I advise you not to read it, Chanchal, but maybe, hopefully, it is of interest to some others. Best -- Britta         Am 17.10.2008 um 05:34 schrieb chanchal malviya: That is true.. you will not die in riots... Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will accept Islam...   Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva (Communal)... rest all is secular..   We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... this land of Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require people like you who believe in more than one fathers (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we respect them.. but do not want them to hit our father...   And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why don't you conver to Islam once and for all... At least we will be clear that we are having clear opposition... not confused minds.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Tapas Ray To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Britta, Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a completely different language, which the rest of the members have no intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the list is not physically wrecked. Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. Tapas 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, subservience and silent suffering? Britta Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: India is secular: 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not have that. 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their own motherland 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal Not to say the last words.. If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies because we chose to remain Hindu. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18  8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 21:45:33 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <131549.28507.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You have yourself found the answer... Islam has declined to call Bharat as Bharat Mata... and the even the anti-hindutva media has shown this...  M.F.Hussain will paint her nude... Aarthi can allow this thing... But I believe in that Hindutva, which Vivekananda told: "In west a woman other than mother is a wife, In India a woman other than wife is a mother" I believe in that Hindutva which Shivaji practiced: When a Muslim lady was brought before him, he could not stop staring at his beauty. But on being asked he said 'I wish I would have been your son, I would have been so handsome'   Does Islam teach this. Does Christianity teach this. Quran keeps on shouting about Christianity and Idolators. Bible does the same. Hindutva do not talk even about Hindutva...   And you feel ashamed to be a part of this Way of Living.. Forget... Kashmiri pandits were exactly the same what you are today... They have met the fate.. We will wait few decades to see if you still hold the same statement and vision as you are doing now.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Fatima To: Tapas Ray ; reader-list at sarai.net; chanchal malviya Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:31:15 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Dear Chanchal Who are you referring to when you mentioned "people like you who believe in more than one fathers..." Did you mean Britta and her ethnic world, or anyone from outside India? Sounds outrageous any way. I don't want to hurt anyone's sentiments here, but I wanted clear a bit of the family lineage here. When you say Hindutva is our only one father (rest are uncles), there must be a mother too, which I assume is Bharat mata. So, when people other than Hindus live in India, and call Bharat mata their mother, what about their fathers? If Muslims, Christians, Parsis find their religions as their fathers - we all have one mother? Its getting a bit confusing here? My uncle is also the husband of my mother...and so on. --- On Fri, 17/10/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > From: chanchal malviya > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Tapas Ray" , reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Friday, 17 October, 2008, 9:04 AM > That is true.. you will not die in riots... > Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will > accept Islam... >   > Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva > (Communal)... rest all is secular.. >   > We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... > this land of Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require > people like you who believe in more than one fathers > (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we respect > them.. but do not want them to hit our father... >   > And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why > don't you conver to Islam once and for all... At least > we will be clear that we are having clear opposition... not > confused minds.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die > in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but > who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of > these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, > have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few > gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to > mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather > perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they > speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the > members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these > things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack > this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they > can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so > that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing > how this list has been > > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how > deeply the paradigms > > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but > painstakingly flexible > > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by > saying this I > > already know the - superficially varied - reactions > that will refuse > > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext > of 'not > > differentiating' and with the accusation of > communalising, to go to > > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the > Kashmiri pundits, the > > injustice done to the 'majority community' and > - to leave this list. > > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really > only masochism, > > subservience and silent suffering? > > Britta > > > > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > > > >> India is secular: > >> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no > Hindu personal law > >> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, > but Hindus do not > >> have that. > >> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they > are not engaged > >> either in conversion, but the same can be applied > on them in their > >> own motherland > >> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and > Christianity to be > >> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >> > >> Not to say the last words.. > >> If all Religions are equal, why don't you > convert to Islam or > >> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. > The problem lies > >> because we chose to remain Hindu. > >> > >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at rocketmail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 21:49:03 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <372976.26945.qm@web90402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear all,   I may appear to be rude in my words.. But you all know I am talking what is there in the scriptures and actions.. However, my purpose was not to hurt any faith... I do not like Religion.. Because the world is moving fast towards a Religious war... And we all know that this war is not imposed by Hinduism.. Because had it been so.. HIndus would have been voilent in many other countries as they are spread in million across the globe.. Instead, the Hindus are fighting for their own existence in their own motherland.. The danger is because of other Religions... Anyway, let us not fight.. I will not post such things further.. ----- Original Message ---- From: Christiane Brosius To: chanchal malviya Cc: Tapas Ray ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:25:40 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? dear chanchal please kindly stop burdening this list with the endless boredom of black and white rhetoric of aggressors versus good human beings in this family soap opera with uncles and mothers. If anything, then I guess this list is what it is, NOT because of the reproduction of clichés but because of its challenge to narrow-minded thinking. It should continue to offer new, fresh approaches to a range of topics and not become an old pan on which old food is warmed up once again, who wants to eat this at the end of the day? Christiane chanchal malviya schrieb: > That is true.. you will not die in riots... > Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will accept Islam... >  > Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva (Communal)... rest all is secular.. >  > We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... this land of Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require people like you who believe in more than one fathers (Hindutva is our only father).. rest are Uncles.. we respect them.. but do not want them to hit our father... >  > And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why don't you conver to Islam once and for all... At least we will be clear that we are having clear opposition... not confused minds.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : >  >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, >> subservience and silent suffering? >> Britta >> >> >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: >> >>    >>> India is secular: >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >>> have that. >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >>> own motherland >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >>> >>> Not to say the last words.. >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. >>> >>> >>>      > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >  -- –œ‡°±· __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Fri Oct 17 21:52:16 2008 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:22:16 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <19670.73842.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <19670.73842.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Regrettably, my previous mail, which you find reproduced below, has not yet received approval from the list-administrator, probably because of the length of the article I attached. Readers can thus only see Chanchal's unsurprising reply to the mail-text, somewhat out of context. Apologies Britta Chanchal: there is not a single 'religion' that would not claim to be not a religion but a 'way of life'. Am 17.10.2008 um 18:08 schrieb chanchal malviya: > Even if you are without religion, you will not be spared.. > Read the texts... you are a Non-Believer.. it is that simple... > > And do not hype about Hindutva.. Hinduism is the lone faith which do > not talk about Religion... Yet it is hated...by I don't know.. I > shall call them by people of lost world.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Britta Ohm > To: chanchal malviya > Cc: Tapas Ray ; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:03:40 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > There is no guarantee, apparently, that Tapas will not die in a > 'riot' - which he himself is very aware of and which your whole > rhetoric, Chanchal, moves even more into the realm of likelihood. It > is also not any more self-evident that I will not die in a pogrom > when I come to India next and travel to Orissa or Gujarat again, > because I might be mistaken for a Christian, even though I am > without religion - not the same as secular - but these are precisely > the small differentiations that do not count in the face of a > caricatured 'Bharat Mata' (who would, I'm sure, cringe at what > you're doing to her if she could). The reactions to Samina's > wonderful and important piece - that fell victim to 'editorial > necessities' (??) at India Today - have again, in the foreseeable > fashion, undercrored this. The unwillingness to accept > differentiations - rather than essentialising 'cultural differences' > - is tantamount to the refusal to accept plurality. The resulting form > of uncompromising hatred against minorities and their varied > existences that has taken root in India over the past two decades > deeply scares me and many others, particularly because it is > increasingly carried, enacted and formulated by parts of the > population itself, even if it still thrives most where the state and > para-state organisations lend legitimacy to it. > I know that there is no use trying to discuss with you, Chanchal, or > with the rest of the Hindutva mob on this list, that pedagogical and > reasonable explanations and enlightenment are lost on you. It is as > fruitless virtually as it is on the street, or, for that matter, in > a seminar room - because it is a myth that Hindutva only appeals to > non-intellectuals. I know your 'arguments', so please, kindly, spare > me - or erupt again, if you can't help it, it hardly makes a > difference. And that's the actually scary part, the communication > breakdown. But maybe you can give it a thought that nobody on this > list has so far called for your expellation or has suggested you > find other fora to express your views. What do you think it means > that people here endure your discriminations and calls for > conversions without calling for your own? Could it have something to > do with democracy? In the face of the latter's volatile situation, > however, what is left, it seems, is > to use the 'points' you keep raising as a documentation of this > hatred, particularly for those in the 'West', who are in the wake of > the 'war on terror' partly re-inforced in their romanticist ideas > of 'tolerant Hindus' and 'aggressive Muslims'. I'm attaching an > article of mine that was published in the EPW in December last year, > just before the Assembly elections in Gujarat. I advise you not to > read it, Chanchal, but maybe, hopefully, it is of interest to some > others. > Best -- Britta > > > > > > Am 17.10.2008 um 05:34 schrieb chanchal malviya: > > That is true.. you will not die in riots... > Because before the sword comes to your throat, you will accept > Islam... > > Only they will be hit who dare to talk about Hindutva (Communal)... > rest all is secular.. > > We are proud of what we are originally... the hindus... this land of > Sanatan Dharma from eternity don't require people like you who > believe in more than one fathers (Hindutva is our only father).. > rest are Uncles.. we respect them.. but do not want them to hit our > father... > > And no one is answering... if Secularism is your say... why don't > you conver to Islam once and for all... At least we will be clear > that we are having clear opposition... not confused minds.. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tapas Ray > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 2:54:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Britta, > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > list is not physically wrecked. > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > > I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > > hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > > of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > > - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > > already know the - superficially varied- reactions that will refuse > > any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > > differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > > Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > > injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > > Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > > subservience and silent suffering? > > Britta > > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > > > India is secular: > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > have that. > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > own motherland > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > Not to say the last words.. > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ___________________ > > Britta Ohm > Postdoc > University of Zurich > UPRP Asia and Europe > > Office: > Scheuchzerstr. 21 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 > fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 > britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch > www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch > > Home: > Solmsstr. 36 > 10961 Berlin > Germany > +49-(0)30-695 07 155 > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > Ekkehardstr. 18 > 8006 Zürich > Switzerland > +41-(0)43-2689077 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 22:03:13 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:03:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] mockery of death: Tehelka Message-ID: <47e122a70810170933k21502c3ep95d9895ab43f083e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=cr251008mockery_ofdeath.asp Mockery Of Death As India continues its spree of untabulated death sentences, GOWHAR FAZILI questions the relevance of capital punishment today ON OCTOBER 10, 2008, five members of Amnesty International carried out a mock mass hanging near New Delhi's India Gate. They wore black hoods and nooses around their necks and hung themselves from a 12-foot life like hanging post made of foam. Their tshirts carried the message 'Mujhe Bacha Lo!' and 'Save Me'. Within 20 minutes, the police swung into action and stopped the performance, arresting four performers, including Inder Salim, a performance artist, and pushed them into a police van. Inder later said, "The disconnection between art and life makes it easier for the establishment to handle both by putting each in its box. But as soon as we bring it on to the street, it comes back to life imbued with new meaning. Also, the materials we use change the perception of art. In this case, simply because the hang post is made of foam and cloth and bends as one hangs, the act is transformed into something laughable even while it communicates the ugliness of the idea it represents; that is, to hang someone." The event was held on World Day Against Death Penalty, which commemorates the attempt to press home the demand for universal abolition of capital punishment by the World Coalition Against Death Penalty (WCADP), Anti Death Penalty Asia Network (ADPAN) and Amnesty International, along with a host of coalition partners. There is an increasing global shift away from inhuman practices like death penalty. Argentina, being the most recent example, was the latest to announce abolition of death penalty on September 12, 2008. Contrastingly, on December 18, 2007, India chose to vote against the motion along with Pakistan and China, in response to the UN General Assembly call for a Universal Moratorium on Death Penalty. This is shocking for a country which advocates non-violence worldwide. While the judiciary claims to issue Death Penalty only in the 'rarest of the rare' cases, death as a punishment in India is increasingly being offered as a short cut solution to most problems we face today. On May 2, 2008, Amnesty International India issued a report based on the study of 700 judgments on cases related to the death penalty. It conclusively established how the death penalty in India has lead to a miscarriage of justice on more than six counts. Among these are the fallibility of circumstantial evidence due to absence of forensic facilities, non-availability of adequate legal representation, absence of sufficient safe-guards especially in the case of ever increasing anti-terrorist legislation, delays in carrying out of sentences, etc. The legal fraternity has taken a serious note of the report. Even the Supreme Court has validated the findings of the report by quoting from it in its proceedings. The Government of India, in turn, has failed to study death penalty since 1979 and despite concerns about its misuse, finds it still relevant. Worse still, the government claims that it does not maintain statistics on death penalty cases and executions conducted in India since Independence. This absence of information is in clear violation of the international convention (resolution 1989/64 adopted on 24 May 1989), which requires the signatories to maintain annual statistics and transparency on the issue. Various National Human Rights Commission chairpersons have expressed the need to review capital punishment, but these have been mere statements falling on the deaf ears of the state. A significant number of judges and Presidents shift to opposition of death penalty after retirement. An increasing number of world bodies are calling for a universal moratorium on Death Penalty, including the European Union. But the government machinery, so far, is largely unmoved. For India, this could be an opportunity to seize leadership and help persuade the 14 residual Asian countries towards abolition, or else to trail behind in this regard, violating its founding spirit of Ahimsa and be counted among the rogue nations. Fazili is Coordinator, Anti Death Penalty Campaign, at Amnesty India >From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 42, Dated Oct 25, 2008 to see more media coverage http://www.amnesty.org.in/pages/media_coverage.aspx and images http://indersalim.livejournal.com warmly inder salim From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 22:36:55 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:06:55 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Tariq Ali on YouTube Message-ID: TA getting in on some hot, uncensored YouTube action...big up http://www.zcommunications.org/zvideo/2834 From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 22:55:44 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:25:44 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy on Brave New India Message-ID: Brave New India October, 12 2008 By Arundhati Roy [ARUNDHATI ROY is the celebrated author of The God of Small Things, winner of the prestigious Booker Prize. The New York Times calls her "India's most impassioned critic of globalization and American influence." She is the winner of the 2002 Lannan Award for Cultural Freedom. Her latest books are The Checkbook and the Cruise Missile, with David Barsamian, and An Ordinary Person's Guide to Empire. DAVID BARSAMIAN interviewed her in New Delhi on December 29, 2007. David Barsamian is the producer of Alternative Radio, based in Boulder, Colorado.] ALL NATIONS have ideas about themselves that are repeated without much scrutiny or examination: the United States—a beacon of freedom and liberty; India—the world's largest democracy, dedicated to secularism. INDIA HAS done a better job than the United States in recent years. The myth about the U.S. being a beacon of liberty has been more or less discredited amongst people who are even vaguely informed. India, on the other hand, has managed to pull off almost a miraculous public relations coup. It really is the flavor of the decade, I think. It's the sort of dream destination for world capital. All this done in the name of "India is not Afghanistan," "India is not Pakistan," "India is a secular democracy," and so on. India has among the highest number of custodial deaths in the world. It's a country where 25 percent of its territory is out of control of the government. But the thing is that these areas are so dark, whether it's Kashmir, whether it's the northeastern states, whether it's Chhattisgarh, whether it's parts of Andhra Pradesh. There is so much going on here, but it's just a diverse and varied place. So while there are killings going on, say, in Chhattisgarh, there's a festival in Tamil Nadu or a cricket match between India and Australia in Adelaide. Where the light is shone is where the Sensex stock market is jumping and investments are coming in. And where the lights are switched off are the states where farmers are committing suicide—I think the figure is now 136,000—and the killing, in say, Kashmir, which is 68,000 to 80,000. We have laws like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which allows even noncommissioned officers to shoot on suspicion. It's quite interesting what's going on right now, because we are at the cusp where the definition of terrorism is being expanded. Under the BJP, the Bharatiya Janata Party—that's the radical Hindu government previously in power—much of the emphasis was on Islamic terrorism. But now Islamic terrorism is not enough to net those that the government wants to net, because the minimum qualification is that you have to be a Muslim. Now, with these huge development projects and these Special Economic Zones that are being created and the massive displacement, the people that are protesting those have to be called terrorists, too. And they can't be Islamic terrorists, so now we have the Maoists. The fact is that both in the case of militancy in Kashmir as well as the expansion of the Maoist cadres, they are both realities—it's not that they are not—but they are realities that both sides benefit from exaggerating. So when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh says it's the greatest internal security threat, it allows various state governments to pass all kinds of laws that could call anybody a terrorist. Say, tomorrow, they came into my house here. Just the books that I have would make me qualify as a terrorist. In Chhattisgarh, if I had these books and if I weren't Arundhati Roy, I could be put into jail. Human rights activists, like, say, a very well-known doctor, Binayak Sen, has just been put into jail on charges of being a Maoist. He's being made an example of to discourage people from having any association with those who are resisting this kind of absolutely lawless takeover of land now. Thousands and thousands of acres are being handed over to corporates. So now we're sort of, as I said, on the cusp of expanding the definition of terrorist so that a lot of people who disagree with this mode of development can be actually imprisoned and are being imprisoned. Until recently, even post-1990s, when the sort of neoliberal model was imported into India, we were still talking about the privatization of water, the privatization of electricity, the devastation of the rivers. But when you look at privatization of water and electricity, still these corporate companies had to find their markets here, even if it was for the Indian elite, even if it was just making water and electricity too expensive for local people. But with the opening up of the mineral sector and the discovery of huge deposits of bauxite and iron ore in states like Orissa and Chhattisgarh, we are watching these places turn into what it was like in Africa, what it is like in the Middle East, where you don't have to find a local market. You just take the whole mountain of bauxite and you store it in the desert in Australia and you trade bauxite on the futures market. So the corporates are here, and their guns are trained on these minerals. If you look at a geographical map of India, you will see that the only areas where there are forests are where Adivasis, tribals, live, and under the forests are the minerals. It is these ecologically and socially most vulnerable parts of India that are now in the crosshairs of these big guns. So you have absolute devastation happening in Chhattisgarh and Orissa. Chhattisgarh is like Colombia. The Tatas, who until just a few years ago were trying to be the sort of good-uncle corporation, have now decided to go aggressive and enter the world market big time. So, for example, they signed an MOU, memorandum of understanding, with the Chhattisgarh government for the mining of iron ore. And within days, not by coincidence I'm sure, was the announcement of what's known as the Salva Judum, a people's militia, which purportedly is a spontaneous movement that sprang up to fight the menace of the Maoists. Salva Judum is armed by the government. Something like four hundred villages have been evacuatedand moved into police camps. Chhattisgarh is in a situation of sort of civil war, which is exactly what happened in Colombia. And while our eyes are on this supposed civil war, obviously the mining, the minerals, everything can be just taken away. If you look at what's going on in Orissa, the situation is similar. Orissa has bauxite mountains, which are beautiful and densely forested, with flat tops, like air fields. They are porous mountains, which are actually water tanks that store water for the fields in the plains. And whole mountains have just been taken away by private corporations, and, of course, destroying the forests, displacing the tribals, and devastating the land. It's really interesting, what's going on in India today. It's hard to know what to say or how to think about it anymore. We are all well versed in Noam Chomsky's thesis of the manufacture of consent, but actually what's going on now here is we're living in the era of the manufacture of dissent, where you have these corporations who are making so much money. For example, the way the bauxite business works is that the corporates just pay the Orissa government a royalty, a small percentage, and they are making billions. And with those billions they can set up an NGO. Somebody says they're going to set up Vedanta University in Orissa. They will mop up all the intellectuals and environmentalists. Alcan has given a million-dollar environmental award to one of the leading environmental activists in India. The Tatas have the Jamsetji Tata Trust and the Dorabji Tata Trust, which they use to fund activists, to stage cultural events and so on, to the point where these people are funding the dissent as well as the devastation. The dissent is on a leash; it's only apparent. It's a manufactured situation in which everyone is playing out this kind of theater. It's completely crazy. CLEARLY, THE state must be enabling these kinds of situations to occur and to continue. THIS IS the genius of the Indian state. It's an extremely sophisticated state. It has a lot to teach the Americans about occupation, it has a lot to teach the world about how you manage dissent. You just wear people down, you just wait things out. When they want to mow people down, when they want to kill and imprison, it does that, too. Who doesn't believe that this is a spiritual country where everybody just thinks that if it's not okay in this life it will be okay in the next life? Yet it is one of the most devastatingly cruel societies. Which other culture could dream up the caste system? Even the Taliban can't come up with the way Indian civilization has created Dalits. EXPLAIN WHO Dalits are. DALITS ARE the "untouchables" of India. THEY'RE ON the bottom of the economic, social ladder. THEY'RE ON the bottom of everything, everything. They are routinely bludgeoned, butchered, killed. I don't know whether it made it to the American press, but, for example, Dalits, because they have been at the bottom of Hindu society, often have converted and become Muslims, become Christians, become Sikhs. But they continue to be treated as untouchables, even in those religions. It's so pervasive. There was recently a man called Bant Singh, who is a Sikh Dalit. Even in India people would jump at the idea of there being such a thing as a Sikh Dalit. But, actually, 30 percent of Sikhs are Dalits and about 90 percent of them are landless. Because they are landless, obviously they work as labor on other people's farms. Their women are very vulnerable. Upper castes all over India think that they have the right to pick up a Dalit woman and have sex with her or rape her. Bant Singh's young daughter was raped by the upper-caste people in his village. Bant Singh was a member of the CPI (ML), which is the Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist), known as Naxalites, and he filed a case in court. They warned him. They said, "If you don't drop the case, we will kill you." He didn't drop the case, so they caught him and they cut off his arms and his legs. He was in the hospital in Delhi. I went to see him there. It was a lesson to me about how being a political person saved him. He said, "Do you think I don't have arms and legs? I do. Because all my comrades are my arms and legs." He's a singer, so he sang a song about a young girl's father getting her dowry ready for her just before her marriage, her trousseau. And she says to him, "I don't want this sari and these jewels. What will I do with them? Just give me a gun." Unfortunately, more and more, because of, I think, what happened with the Narmada movement and the fact that that nonviolent movement, where people fought for fifteen years and were just flicked aside like chaff, that has resulted in a lot of people saying, "I don't want the bangles, I don't want Gandhi. Just give me a gun." YOU WERE an active participant in, and observer and reporter on, the NBA, the Narmada Bachao Andolan. It was, of course, trying to fight many of these big dam projects in central India. Well, what happened exactly? Where did it go and where is it today? Is it still active? You once described it, I think, as the greatest nonviolent movement since [India's] independence. YES, I did. But I think people, including myself, are very disillusioned by what happened. And I personally feel that we really need to do a sort of post-mortem. The state did what's in its nature, and it has won that battle. The Supreme Court judgment that came out in 2001 was a devastating blow. But, in my opinion, that should have been the time when people began to question these institutions such as the Supreme Court. Instead, people have gone on and on and on trying to find some embers of hope there and have not broken the faith. I have broken the faith. I don't look to the court for any kind of real help, which is not to say that every single court judgment that comes out is terrible, but there is a systemic problem with the Supreme Court of India, with its views, with its ideologies. This is a huge subject separate to this question and, to me, one of the most important things that needs to be discussed. But the Narmada movement now refuses to question itself, and I think that's a problem. Because it was a wonderful and a magnificent effort, but it wasn't faultless. Unless we try and think about what is it that was wrong, we can't really just move on to something else. In fact, as I said, I think people have felt that there is a futility in these kind of hunger fasts and dharnas, sit-ins, and sitting on the pavement singing songs, because I think the government loves that. Now Sonia Gandhi is talking about satyagraha and Gandhi in Davos. We have satyagraha fairs in Connaught Place where they sell herbal shampoos. And when the government starts promoting satyagraha, it's time for us to think about it. I think it's time to radically question many things, including what this kind of joyful freedom movement of 1947 was about and who did it benefit and was it really a middle-class revolution that, as usual, fired its guns off the shoulders of the poor, which it was. The Indian elites stepped very easily into the shoes of our white sahibs. TALK ABOUT Narendra Modi and Gujarat. In December of 2007, he and his party were reelected. It was Modi in 2002 who presided over a pogrom resulting in the deaths of some two thousand primarily Muslims in Gujarat. What accounts for his ability to be reelected despite this record of promoting communal violence? No, it's not despite, it's because. That po?grom in which between 1,500 to 2,000 Muslims were massacred on the streets, women were gang-raped, 150,000 Muslims were driven from their homes and today they live in ghetto conditions, economically and socially ostracized in Gujarat, this was all an election campaign. So I think we really need to question, structurally, what is this democracy? It's kind of pointless to just demonize Modi, because there are going to be people like Modi, who understand that there is a very organic link between democracy and majoritarianism and between majoritarianism and fascism. As I keep saying, there is fire in the ducts. This has to be what's going to happen, because what is a politician spawned by this kind of complex society going to do? He's going to try and forge a majority for himself using the lowest common denominator, which will then be a sort of faithful vote bank. That's what Modi did. Modi is a brilliant politician, and he has the corporates eating out of his hand. So that connection—just like we know happened during the Nazi era in Germany—the connection between the fascists and the big corporations, it's no different here. Tata, Reliance, all these people say Gujarat is the dream destination for capital. The RSS, which is the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, the cultural guild that spawned the BJP (which is just its political wing) was founded in 1925, and it's been working all these years, sometimes underground, sometimes above ground. It was founded basically on the tenets of Mussolini's Italian fascism—very open about saying that the Muslims of India are like the Jews of Germany. It's the Indian liberals who try and say that it's not fascist, whereas they themselves are very comfortable with the idea of fascism. In fact, there was a ridiculous moment during the Gujarat elections when Sonia Gandhi, campaigning for the Congress, called Modi "maut ka saudagar," which is a merchant of death. And Advani, who is the leader of the BJP, and Modi both came out and said, "We don't mind being called Hitler, that's acceptable, but don't call him a merchant of death." In fact, in the history textbooks and things in Gujarat, Hitler gets quite high marks. So what we are seeing in Gujarat is a kind of fascism, because I keep saying that having a fascist dictator is one thing, but having a fascist democrat elected to power, fattened on the approbation of millions of people, is a different thing. Because we have now millions of little Modis running around in Gujarat. Recently, just before the elections, Tehelka news magazine did a sting operation. It was shown on a major prime-time channel, where you had people coming out saying very openly how they had raped and then pulped Muslim women, how they had hacked to death people and then Modi had given them refuge or sent them out of Gujarat for a while and protected them. THIS WAS all well documented? WELL DOCUMENTED. Tehelka had these guys come out and say it themselves. All the documentation exists in great detail from human rights groups, the People's Union for Democratic Rights, Communalism Combat. But when it was aired on TV, down the line everybody's reaction was, "Oh, what terrible timing. Now Modi is going to win the elections." Because these people are boasting about this kind of massacre. It's going to get him votes. So that's what I meant by saying it's not despite, it's because of. Having said that, it is important, when you look at the election results in some detail, to see that Modi in many constituencies just won by three hundred, five hundred, a thousand votes. It was close. But the thing is that if you look at how this democracy now has begun to function, I really find it chilling. For example, during the pogrom there was one episode—I'm just telling you one of many episodes—there was an MLA, a member of the legislative assembly, called Ehsan Jafari, a poet, who lived in Ahmedabad in a housing society called Gulbarga. When the mobs began to gather, something like sixty Muslims from that area went and sheltered with him thinking he's an MLA and he's not going to get killed. A mob of some twenty thousand people gathered and started baying for his blood. This man made two hundred phone calls that day, from Modi, to the home minister Advani, to the police, to Sonia Gandhi, saying, "Please help." The police even came there and went away. Ehsan Jafari was pulled out of his house and in front of everyone, in broad daylight, was hacked into pieces. Something like twelve women were gang-raped and killed and everybody was burned alive. And the policeman who was there was promoted. The man who was organizing this now became the police commissioner of Gujarat. The lawyers who were representing the Muslims were actually lawyers who had been the lawyers for the accused. Some of the survivors knew who the killers were. The police refused to write their names in the FIRs, First Information Reports. Just that it was general mob violence. The Supreme Court made some very virtuous sounds at that time, five years ago, saying Modi was like Nero: he was fiddling while Gujarat burned. And then they just clammed up. Nothing happened. And then you have these men come out and boast on prime-time TV of having raped and killed and looted, saying things like, "We know that these Muslims are terrified of being burned. They would need to be buried. That's why we decided to burn them." And nothing happened. So everything just goes on, every single institution has been penetrated by these people and functions, as long as you are open for investments, as long as all the Tatas and Reliance and all the rich people are happy. We're looking at something that no dictator could do. This level of penetration of all these various institutions drives you completely crazy. You sit there and you just don't know what to think. And even the political parties like, say, the Communist Party of India, that opposes Modi, then goes and does a Nandigram. You're really left to be a mad person in the wilderness. People are so disillusioned with the system. They are doing their own fighting. They are taking to arms, they have their own systems of justice, their own understanding of what's right and what's wrong and are turning their backs on this country with the greatest publicity in the world. YOU JUST mentioned Nandigram, which is a small village in West Bengal, a state that is ruled by the Communist Party (Marxist). In 2007 there were killings there. You went to Nandigram. Can you explain what happened and what is going on? Nandigram is not a small village. Nandigram is a district that consists of many, many villages. The Communist Party of India (Marxist) [CP(M)], which is the main parliamentary Left, which is in coalition with the center right now, has been in power in West Bengal for thirty years unchallenged. I grew up in Kerala, which also has had a communist government, but it's all the time in and out of power. When I went to Bengal, I realized the first thing you do is to question how in this tumultuous place can a party remain in power for thirty years unchallenged. There is something terribly wrong there. It's difficult to explain. I'll try and explain it simply, because obviously it has led to a lot of confusion in the world. This particular Communist Party (Marxist) has been sort of not calling itself that but has been at the level of organizing, say, the World Social Forum in India, saying "Another World Is Possible" and trying to align itself with all the various people's movements that have existed in India for many years. The Communist Party (Marxist), except in Bengal and to some extent in Kerala, does not have any cadres anywhere else in India, so it was consciously trying to sort of associate itself with all these various people's movements, which was why it was so big into the World Social Forum. IT WAS held in Mumbai in 2005. BUT EVEN the ones that were held in Porto Alegre, very many people who were associated with the CP(M) were involved. And then a year and a half or two years ago, the Indian government announced this. And, of course, the CP(M) has always had as its war cry anti-U.S., anti-imperialism, and all that, and anti this whole neoliberal project. But then the government announced this whole policy of SEZs, which are Special Economic Zones, an acronym that has spawned many sarcastic forms, such as Slavery Enabled Zones. These SEZs are huge economic enclaves, I don't know the exact figure but there are hundreds. India used to be a feudal society, with huge feudal zamindars. BIG LANDOWNERS. AND THEN there was a failed process of land reform in states like—actually, the state where the most successful land reforms happened, oddly enough, was Kashmir, and Kashmiris are still enjoying the benefits of that. But in places like Bengal and elsewhere there were some land reforms. And now this whole business of SEZs is almost reversing that whole process and taking away land and giving it to big corporations, like Reliance and Tata. What the Communist Party (Marxist) has been doing is vociferously opposing SEZs, and then suddenly in West Bengal turning around to create one of the biggest SEZs, which is to be this chemical hub in the district of Nandigram. An Indonesian corporation called the Salim Group was its sort of front, and it was going to make this chemical hub. Nandigram is right near Haldia port. Trouble started in West Bengal first with the Tatas in a place called Singur, where the government gave the Tatas something close to 1,000 hectares of land to make small cars. You can imagine the communist government wanting to make small cars, the people's car. You know who else made the people's car. So there was firing. People were killed in Singur. There was a huge resistance. But then it announced this chemical hub in Nandigram, and notices went out for land acquisition. This was something like 18,000 hectares. Thousands and thousands of people were going to be affected. And Nandigram just rose up in revolt. It was interesting, because Nandigram used to be a CP(M) stronghold. I think it was a case of a party being so unused to any kind of opposition that it just misread the situation and thought it could do exactly what it wanted. It resulted basically in the party having what the people in Nandigram call the cadre police, which is party people dressed in police uniforms going in and committing acts of violence and even murder. The first uprising was in March. It's a whole mess of all kinds of politics, but basically it was a fantastic resistance. They dug up the roads, they refused the police entry, and they said, "You can't come in and you can't have our land." I'll just tell you what happened when I was there. The government kept saying the people barricaded Nandigram and, "They're not allowing us in to do development work, they're not allowing the police in, we can't give polio drops." They kept saying this thing about polio drops. There is not a single health center in all those villages. The nearest hospital is in Nandigram town, which is very, very far for people to go. All these years, no electricity, none of that. And suddenly you're talking about polio drops. Really what it is about is regaining complete control. The second time I went, which was just last week, the people I had met the first time sent messages saying, "Please don't come to us, please don't recognize us, because we'll just be eliminated." They just dare, and anyone who pops their head up, it's off with their heads. So, in fact, just a few days ago, the last thing I did when I came out of Nandigram was I was present at the exhumation of a body in a field that had its legs smashed and two bullets in its back, and his wife had identified the body. The neighbor said to me that this man was a member of the Bhoomi Ucched Pratrirodh Committee, which is the resistance organization, and had been told several times that he must join the CP(M), otherwise he would be killed. And when he didn't, he was made an example of. I really salute the resistance there. I think it is so important for everyone else in India that they force the government to say they will not build the hub, even though nobody believes it. But even if it's a temporary victory, it's a great thing. It's so important for the CP(M) government to keep saying, "Oh, it was the Maoists. It wasn't the local people, it was outsiders." And this whole bullshit about outsiders. How dare a communist party come and say outsiders. What do they mean by outsiders? Beyond the district or outside Bengal? If they believe in that kind of rhetoric, what gives them the right to comment about Gujarat or fascism or the BJP or anything? KASHMIR IS an area of conflict, but it's largely unreported, particularly in the United States. The framework of the little information that is available is usually that these are Islamic extremists, terrorists. Now, since September 11, they're labeled as Taliban and al-Qaeda. You have been going to Kashmir. What have you learned? KASHMIR IS one of those places where every time I hear people say, "Oh, it's more complicated than that," I get a rash, because all you need to do is to get out of the airport to see that here is a small valley where there are—I keep saying that to fight a full-blown war in Iraq, the Americans have 135,000 troops, and in Kashmir it's something like 700,000 security personnel of different kinds: the army, the police, the paramilitary, the counterinsurgency, all the various kinds of people that are operating there. Certainly the situation has been made complicated with spies and double agents and informers and money being poured in by intelligence agencies from India and Pakistan. But the bottom line is that it is the people's will that the Indian government is seeking to subvert. Why is it so frightened of a referendum? Firstly, how can you talk about holding democratic, free, and fair elections in a place where a person isn't even allowed to breathe without an AK-47 being stuck up his nostril? So what is it that so frightens the Indian government that they do not wish to assess what the people really want? In a way, it's been complicated by the instrument of accession, genuine or not. Supposing it was genuine. Supposing it was. THE TRANSFER from the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir to the Indian union in 1947. RIGHT. I'M just saying that what is it that the people want now? If we are going to be talking about democracy as being the foundation, the keystone of democracy being the will of the people, everybody seems to feel that they can speak on behalf of the will of the people, but nobody wants to ascertain what is the will of the people. Though, of course, I think that we're not going to have an idealistic solution to the problem of Kashmir. India is never going to give up anything. Right now it's stronger than it ever was. So how that fight, how that battle is joined still remains to be seen. But it's clear that after having almost lost a whole generation of young people, the Kashmiris are nowhere close to saying "We give up." Of course, there is an elite that's been co-opted that's being made to feel like its stakes in peace are huge. But I think India is as far away from a solution to Kashmir as America is from a solution to Iraq or Afghanistan. THE J&K Coalition of Civil Society has published numerous reports about human rights violations, disappear?ances, torture, molestation and rapes of women, and extrajudicial execu?tions. What kind of attention has this attracted in civil society in the rest of India? ALMOST NONE. Because? BECAUSE THIS whole rhetoric of Muslim terrorism and so on is very deep. So you will see trucks going past that on the back say "Doodh mango to kheer deingay, Kashmir mango to cheer deingay." It means, Ask for milk and we'll give you cream. Ask for Kashmir and we'll disembowel you. Every part of the state machinery, including the press, is fully into the propaganda. At least Kashmiris have the hope, even if it's never realized, of freedom inside them. At least they have the dignity that they are doing battle. What do you do for the people in Chhattisgarh or the Muslims in Gujarat? Where are they going to go? Kashmir is in some ways an old-world, classical battle for freedom, like Algeria. I experienced one of the most beautiful moments of my life recently in Kerala. I heard that four thousand Dalit and Adivasi families captured a corporate rubber estate, about two hours away from where my mother lives. So I went there. It was amazing to me to watch the place that I had grown up in, to see a kind of nation rise up before me of people who are just disappeared by our society. It was just an amazing sight. It was the opposite of Nandigram, where the corporates are grabbing people's land. Here the people are grabbing corporate land. Each of them has a little blue plastic sheet that they've made into a hut under a rubber tree. They've been there for something like three hundred days. There are twenty thousand people, women and children, and each of them says that they have a 5-liter can of petrol in their house, and "If the police come, we are just going to immolate ourselves, because we have nowhere else to go." When I heard them speak and I saw that civilizational rage in them, it makes things very simple. They just said, "Look, this corporation has thirty-three estates. It has some 55,000 to 60,000 hectares of land. I have nowhere to sleep. I'm taking it." And I suddenly thought, someone like myself—I write, I've got all these figures and footnotes and statistics—am I turning into a clerk? Is this the way I want to fight? Because eventually who is one trying to convince? These people who read these things are never going to give up what they have. They have to be forced to. That is the battle that's coming here in India. The government is spawning these private militias. In Chhattisgarh you have the Salva Julum. In Gujarat you have the Bajrang Dal. In West Bengal you have the CP(M) cadre police. In Orissa the corporates have their own thugs. That's what's going on. And never mind that they are not even talking about what's happening in the northeast of India, an ongoing situation since 1947, which is worse than Kashmir. Frederick Douglass once said, "Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has, it never will." For myself, I think it's very important for us to also continue to question ourselves and what we do and our role in it. Today in India it's very easy for everybody to keep saying the Maoists are terrible, the government is also terrible, all violence is bad, one is the other side of the coin, these platitudes that are being mouthed. But today, unless I'm prepared to take up arms, I'm not in a position to tell others to take up arms. But unless I'm in a position where I'm at the other end of this battering ram, I'm also not going to sit around saying, "Let's go on a hunger strike" and "Let's go and sing songs outside the Ministry of Water Resources." I'm through with all that. AT THE World Tribunal on Iraq in Istanbul in June of 2005, you made some comments about resistance and the right of resistance that raised a few eyebrows. Have your views on that evolved since then? MY VIEWS on that have not changed since then. Maybe they've evolved. I think that it's very important for us to understand that every day people are being decimated now. I was one of the people who said that the globalization of dissent was the way to fight the globalization of corporate capital. But that was the era of the World Social Forum. But I think things have changed since then, because the World Social Forum has been taken over. So what has happened is a kind of corporatization of dissent. And the globalization of dissent then ends up creating hierarchies, where you pick and choose your genocide or you pick and choose the worst thing that's happening. Is what's happening in Nandigram worse than what happened in the Congo? Of course it's not. Everything gets slotted in and people locally get disempowered. Everyone is looking for star recommendations from the superstars of resistance. Even someone like me. I'm always being asked to say something about things I don't know enough about. I feel that it's very important not to disempower people who are fighting and not to tell them how to fight. For example, in India it's come to a stage where the only thing that people can do is to really do what the people in Nandigram did, dig the roads up and say "You can't come in," because the minute they go in, the minute they start taking over, they co-opt, they pick off the leaders, they buy off someone, it's over. There is a certain amount of brutality now that even resistance has to have, because the co-optation is amazing, the NGO-ization is amazing. I'll tell you a very interesting story. A lot of the royalties from my work I put into a trust. A few of us, friends, activists, run it. The only money that comes into it is the money from my writing and so on, because it's not about trying to raise money, it's just trying to give it out in solidarity to people who don't know how to write proposals and work the system. It's called Zindabad. Long live. We got a letter recently from the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, which is an institute that sometimes is like the post office to disburse funds given to various activists and movements by the Tata trusts. So on one hand you have Tatas, the capitalists, and on the other hand you have these trusts, as I told you, who are funding all these activists and so on. The letter says, "Dear Zindabad Trust, The tribals of Madhya Pradesh are grateful to the Tatas for having supported their struggles for rights and livelihood." And now, in order to expand their base, they want to have a seminar in the India International Centre to which judges and bureaucrats and activists and Adivasis will be invited. And there is a budget where, obviously, the bureaucrats' and judges' travel allowances are huge and the Adivasis' and activists' is very small. And there is a list of the activists and Adivasis, all of whom are funded by the Tatas. They are asking us to fund that seminar. It's like a frog open on a dissecting table. You see how the world works. And I said, Let's write to them and say basically we can't afford to fund the seminar, but why not call the survivors of the people that were shot in Kalingnagar and Singur for Tata projects to put their views across and disseminate them. IN THE last couple of years, India has had an expanding military relationship with the United States and Israel. What are the implications of that? AFTER BEING part of the nonaligned movement, India is now part of the completely aligned movement. The government of India never tires of saying, Israel and the U.S. are its natural allies. So the nuclear deal, joint military exercises, the Indo-U.S. knowledge exchange, all these are ways of tying itself intricately to America by governments that have no idea of what has been the history of America's non-white allies. I just find it insane that they don't just do a quick Google search on the various despotic regimes that have been supported and then deserted by the United States. But the thing is, in India we know that, for example, before the coup in Chile the Americans actually had a whole posse of young Chilean students taken to the Chicago school under Milton Friedman and taught free-market economics. In India, they don't have to do it. We are willing to do it. The Indian elite are just wagging their tails and lining up. Because, as I keep saying, the most successful secessionist movement in India has been the secession of the elite into this kind of global community. Almost every bureaucrat, every politician, every senior member of the judicial, of industry, of the business class, of the academic, everybody would have a very, very close relative, as in a son or a daughter or a brother, in America. So we are organically tied and linked. Manmohan Singh, the Indian prime minister, has never won an election in his life, has no imagination outside that of the IMF and the World Bank. He doesn't sound to me like he's ever read a primary textbook on history. He's probably the only prime minister in the history of the world of a former colony that goes to Cambridge and in his speech thanks colonialism for democracy and thanks the British for every institution of state repression that India has today—the colonial police, the bureaucracy, everything. So it is a country that's run on the lines of a colonial state, equally extractive, except that the colonizers are the upper caste. This is something Frantz Fanon wrote about in The Wretched of the Earth, that the old colonial masters would be replaced by their native equivalents. ABSOLUTELY. IT'S just like a comic book over here. WHAT IS the nuclear deal that you referred to that would tie India to the United States? And you didn't mention Israel in terms of its growing relationship with India as well. We know that Israel is the largest beneficiary of American aid, and it's like the American outpost in the Middle East, so I don't think that you need to see the two, Israel and America, as conceptually separate. I think it's a package. And it also helps to understand it because of the huge anti-Muslim feeling in the majority in India, the huge communal animosity toward the Muslims and terrorism, which just dovetails into all of that beautifully. The nuclear deal, just to put it simply, ties India's civil nuclear program entirely to America. Nuclear energy being the answer to India's energy problems is not something that's ever been studied in any kind of detail. Right now it's almost as good as nothing, civilian nuclear energy's contribution to the power grid. So what we're talking about is a situation in which India invests hugely into civilian nuclear reactors and then is held to ransom. Even if the nuclear deal only purports to deal with the supply of fissile material and so on, actually what it does is puts India itself in a position where it's entirely held to ransom on anything. If you don't sign this, we will renege on that. How absurd to put yourself in such a position. Unfortunately, all the criticism of it has been very unprincipled, even within India, even, say, the Communist Party, which once opposed nuclear weapons. Now its criticism is to say that we are a nuclear state and we mustn't surrender our sovereignty. It's almost standing on its head. I REMEMBER your saying it is dangerous to be a tall poppy. One such tall poppy was Hrant Dink, an Armenian Turkish journalist who was murdered by a Turkish nationalist in the streets of Istanbul in January of 2007. You've been asked to speak on the occasion of his death anniversary [Speech published in ISR 58, March-April 2008]. I know you're bombarded with requests from all over the world. What factors go into your making a decision? Why go to Istanbul? FIRST, A bulk of the bombardment of interviews has recently had to do in some slimy way or another with the promotion of India, and just on principle I am not prepared to do that. We are re-creating India in such-and-such a town and such-and-such a place. And it's all to do with corporate capital and it's all to do with this cuddly toy, teddy bear we have, this wonderful, colorful, bumbling nation where we have cricket and Bollywood, and even the queen of dissent, Arundhati Roy. We actually are really a happy family sort of thing. But about why I agreed to go to Istanbul. Partly because I think, once again, I am partial to going to places that are not just Europe and America, because that, too, can become a supermarket show—that we have everything, and everyone comes to us. Secondly, I think Turkey is fascinating, because it's so similar to India in terms of its aggressive secular elite, its religious fundamentalism, its ugly nationalism. I think it's far less subtle in some ways in its present-day self. It needs to take some lessons from the Brahmins. But it doesn't have this sort of hippy paradise bit. It fascinates me. How do you survive as a writer in a society like this? Recently in India, when this whole Nandigram issue erupted, one of the clever things that the CP(M) thought it did was to conjure up a protest against Taslima Nasrin, whose book Dwikhondito had been published four years ago and was on bestseller lists, and no one had anything to say about it. THE BANGLADESHI novelist? SHE WAS sort of thrown out of Bangla?desh and moved to Calcutta. The first people to ask for a ban were the CP(M). Then the high court lifted the ban. The book was published. Nothing happened. And then just at the time when massive protests erupted against the CP(M) for the first time in thirty years—because of Nandigram, where the bulk of the peasants to be displaced were Muslims, suddenly everything was sought to be distracted by suddenly saying "Taslima Nasrin insults Islam" and "Get her out of here." It was just a piece of currency put into the democratic negotiations that were going on. So how do you function in societies like Turkey and India as a writer? How do you continue to say the things you say? How do you try your best not to get killed? How do you understand that the countries that speak loudest and longest and have the most complex legislation about free speech, such as America, don't have any real free speech but have managed to hypnotize people into thinking that they do. All these things interest me. Obviously, the denial of the Armenian genocide is so blatant. Why do they deny it? Is it an admission that it's such a horrendous thing to do that you need to deny it? Is it the best form of acceptance, denial? That you can't bear to think that there was such a thing in your past? It's interesting. MAYBE IT has some analogy with the Indian government's stand vis-à-vis Kashmir. I don't think it has an analogy, because the government is quite proud of what it does in Kashmir. I don't think we've come to the stage where the government feels bad about it. I MEANT in terms of denying history and denying self-determination and those kinds of issues. The government is not denying its cruelties in Kashmir. The press doesn't report much and doesn't know much, but there's pretty proud parading of how we are dealing with the terrorists, even amongst people in India. For example, I was talking about Gujarat. There is a proud owning up to that killing. There is a proud thing about "This is what these Muslims deserve." So it's quite interesting, the psyche of these things. Which is what I was saying. When you deny something, inherently that denial is the acceptance that it's a terrible thing, which is why you're denying it. But in Gujarat it's not thought of as a terrible thing right now. It's thought of as a great thing. YOU CONTINUE writing your political essays. What about fiction? Have you gotten back to it? I'm trying to. As I said, I don't really want to continue to do the same thing all the time. And I feel a bit of a prisoner in the footnotes department right now. One is constantly being co-opted. I could be forever on mainstream TV in India debating people and putting across my point of view, but eventually you're just adding to the noise. That is part of the racket here right now, this wonderful, messy, noisy, argumentative, cutesy stuff that's going on. I'm not denying the fact that we need very incisive collections of things, but personally, as a writer, I feel that much of my writing was for myself to understand how it works. And now, if I were to write, it would be a reiteration of my understanding. I want to do something that does something with that understanding rather than just collates it. So fiction I think is that place. I want to surprise myself. I want to see what comes out without knowing in advance. WHAT WAS that comment you made about fiction and truth? THAT FICTION is the truest thing there ever was. From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 17 11:39:36 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:39:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <393881.3886.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Chanchal, you moron, 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any religion. 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. There is nothing wrong with that. 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of how I see my own faith or doubts). WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics bring shame and dishonour to theirs. Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless depths of your ignorance. Shuddha On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > India is secular: > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > have that. > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > own motherland > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > Not to say the last words.. > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Javed" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > Engineer. > > vedavati > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > From: Javed > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 00:22:32 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. Prabhakar   ----- Original Message ---- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Chanchal, you moron, 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is  the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in  Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any  religion. 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite  actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu  outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims,  Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them.  There is nothing wrong with that. 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them  communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the  Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the  Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me  neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested  in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of  how I see my own faith or doubts). WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you  are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing,  either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and  ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud  Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices  actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the  words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics  bring shame and dishonour to theirs. Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless  depths of your ignorance. Shuddha On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > India is secular: > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not  > have that. > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged  > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their  > own motherland > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be  > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > Not to say the last words.. > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or  > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies  > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Javed" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali  > Engineer. > > vedavati > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > From: Javed > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >      Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 00:47:26 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:47:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810171217g70b60385i875671f7f50ed14@mail.gmail.com> Prabhakar, It was actually, Shuddha's usual introduction of his-own-self. How can he not reflect his true street character ? :-) He better stay in his comfort zone; in his dreams - the intellectual he is !! Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > Prabhakar > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Chanchal, you moron, > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > religion. > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > There is nothing wrong with that. > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > depths of your ignorance. > > Shuddha > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > India is secular: > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > have that. > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > own motherland > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "Javed" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > Engineer. > > > > vedavati > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > From: Javed > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > as linguistic. > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > articulate and loud. > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > just look on. > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > license to function freely. > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > never before. > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > 'shameful'. > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > Hitler. > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > terrorists'. > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 00:48:57 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:48:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani... Message-ID: <6353c690810171218m3446056coe8fe5ae5ab1bc304@mail.gmail.com> Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani... "Hum Pakistan hain, Pakistan hamara hai" ..So goes Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the grand old man of the Kashmiri seperatists struggle. But perhaps now, after his fifth operation, he will have to add 'par mera pacemaker hindustani hai'. Mr Geelani recently had an operation in Delhi's Escorts hospital to have his pacemaker replaced. There can be little doubt as to who funded this operation in this top hospital of the Indian capital where not many of the cities residents itself would think of getting admitted due to the costs involved. Read more here - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/10/phir-bhi-dil-hai-hindustani.html Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On behalf of 'Roots In Kashmir' From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 01:34:22 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:04:22 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani... In-Reply-To: <6353c690810171218m3446056coe8fe5ae5ab1bc304@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810171218m3446056coe8fe5ae5ab1bc304@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aditya, If I remember correctly, you posted something three or four days ago, to the effect that the man was going to have that operation. I'm sure everyone got the point you were trying to make, which is the contradiction between Geelani's words and his deeds, at least when it came to his own wellbeing. There is no sense in providing us with a running commentary on his health now. Tapas 2008/10/17 Aditya Raj Kaul : > Phir Bhi Dil Hai > Hindustani... > "Hum > Pakistan hain, Pakistan hamara hai" > > ..So goes Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the grand old man of the Kashmiri > seperatists struggle. But perhaps now, after his fifth operation, he will > have to add 'par mera pacemaker hindustani hai'. > > Mr Geelani recently had an operation in Delhi's Escorts hospital to have his > pacemaker replaced. There can be little doubt as to who funded this > operation in this top hospital of the Indian capital where not many of the > cities residents itself would think of getting admitted due to the costs > involved. > > Read more here - > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/10/phir-bhi-dil-hai-hindustani.html > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On behalf of 'Roots In Kashmir' > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 08:55:23 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 08:55:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <6353c690810171217g70b60385i875671f7f50ed14@mail.gmail.com> References: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6353c690810171217g70b60385i875671f7f50ed14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810172025n4f559de6ra98f732d0c65d4ba@mail.gmail.com> IT IS ALWAYS A USUAL INTRODUCTION TO ONE'S OWN SELF, WHATEVER THE SUBJECT Dear Chanchal ji, a couple of days back, after the wonderful presentation by Hans Belting on Arab Science and Renaissance Art, a gentleman asked a question about palmistry, and you know what happened, people started leaving the hall at IGNCA. to my surpris the gentleman said said that whatever hunch you ( Mr. Belting's ) have on Alhazen... ( the great scientist ) so, with love and regards is On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Prabhakar, > > It was actually, Shuddha's usual introduction of his-own-self. How can he > not reflect his true street character ? :-) > > He better stay in his comfort zone; in his dreams - the intellectual he is > !! > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: >> >> Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and >> insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. >> Prabhakar >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> >> Chanchal, you moron, >> >> 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is >> the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. >> 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in >> Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any >> religion. >> 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite >> actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu >> outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, >> Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. >> There is nothing wrong with that. >> 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them >> communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the >> Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the >> Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me >> neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested >> in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of >> how I see my own faith or doubts). >> >> WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you >> are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, >> either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and >> ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud >> Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices >> actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the >> words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics >> bring shame and dishonour to theirs. >> >> Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless >> depths of your ignorance. >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: >> >> > India is secular: >> > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >> > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >> > have that. >> > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >> > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >> > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >> > own motherland >> > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >> > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >> > >> > Not to say the last words.. >> > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >> > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >> > because we chose to remain Hindu. >> > >> > >> > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> > From: Vedavati Jogi >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > To: "Javed" >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM >> > >> > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali >> > Engineer. >> > >> > vedavati >> > >> > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: >> > >> > From: Javed >> > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > To: "sarai list" >> > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM >> > >> > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > >> > Asghar Ali Engineer >> > >> > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) >> > >> > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and >> > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the >> > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even >> > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during >> > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal >> > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well >> > as linguistic. >> > >> > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, >> > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more >> > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, >> > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were >> > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite >> > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. >> > >> > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as >> > a category and national identity was of great importance and often >> > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the >> > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand >> > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very >> > articulate and loud. >> > >> > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi >> > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so >> > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to >> > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was >> > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or >> > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. >> > >> > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great >> > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad >> > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 >> > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until >> > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like >> > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. >> > >> > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence >> > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement >> > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull >> > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place >> > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite >> > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. >> > >> > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos >> > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal >> > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, >> > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu >> > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism >> > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. >> > >> > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the >> > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the >> > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus >> > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging >> > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. >> > >> > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva >> > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent >> > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the >> > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. >> > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining >> > districts, is indeed hair raising. >> > >> > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman >> > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 >> > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? >> > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that >> > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not >> > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? >> > >> > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of >> > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted >> > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert >> > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to >> > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers >> > just look on. >> > >> > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was >> > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA >> > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We >> > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the >> > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has >> > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling >> > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. >> > >> > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA >> > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today >> > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. >> > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is >> > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime >> > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact >> > with America than the communal explosion back home. >> > >> > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the >> > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home >> > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given >> > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over >> > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such >> > license to function freely. >> > >> > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all >> > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. >> > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on >> > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded >> > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as >> > never before. >> > >> > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers >> > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is >> > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if >> > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays >> > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy >> > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except >> > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. >> > >> > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong >> > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle >> > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is >> > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first >> > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva >> > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation >> > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is >> > 'shameful'. >> > >> > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done >> > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting >> > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying >> > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. >> > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly >> > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for >> > its complete inability to control communal violence. >> > >> > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of >> > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the >> > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that >> > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle >> > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large >> > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in >> > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and >> > Hitler. >> > >> > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It >> > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but >> > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders >> > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after >> > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks >> > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. >> > >> > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is >> > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is >> > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is >> > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media >> > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions >> > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded >> > terrorists'. >> > >> > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and >> > play determined role things can get far more worse. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> > >> > >> > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now >> > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 09:10:32 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <248261.18047.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have only one reply... I will wait for the day, when sword will reach your throat... even if you are an atheist... The sword would surely be not of Hindutva... Because Buddhism or Iscon has not spread on sword... It is the depth of knowledge that has made them sit in the heart of foreigners... Even Max Muller converted and realized that he was hurting the greatest faith of this world... Read his last works, for example, 'India what it can teach us' ... You people do not know Hinduism... What you know is evident from the slang you apply and the hatred you reflect... Even though I attack Islam and Christianity, I do not hate their followers... I am attacking the wrong teachings.. But all of your languages reflect hatred towards people... We will wait for the time.. If not you, your children will surely have to answer to your anti-national concept of Secularism and anti-Hindutva... Because you are betraying the very character of this motherland - Hinduism.... ----- Original Message ---- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Cc: Javed ; vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:39:36 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Chanchal, you moron, 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any religion. 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. There is nothing wrong with that. 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of how I see my own faith or doubts). WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics bring shame and dishonour to theirs. Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless depths of your ignorance. Shuddha On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: India is secular: 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not have that. 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their own motherland 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal Not to say the last words.. If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies because we chose to remain Hindu. --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: From: Vedavati Jogi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "Javed" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer. vedavati --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: From: Javed Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Asghar Ali Engineer (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well as linguistic. However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, constitution and governance of the country. India was far more peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as a category and national identity was of great importance and often caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very articulate and loud. Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining districts, is indeed hair raising. More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers just look on. When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact with America than the communal explosion back home. The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such license to function freely. The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all key positions and they captured important academic positions too. Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as never before. Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is 'shameful'. But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for its complete inability to control communal violence. So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and Hitler. Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded terrorists'. The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and play determined role things can get far more worse. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 18 09:47:55 2008 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 04:17:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Another 'encounter' averted in Jamia area? Message-ID: <759736.5388.qm@web25504.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>   Dear all,   This is to add to Yousuf's mail by the same heading on this list. The incident happened on the night of 16th Oct. The next day the English press reported the incident as follows: The police was trying to nab two young boys who were chain snatchers. Locals misunderstood the intentions of the police and infact two policemen were beaten up by the crowd. (The Indian Express, Oct 17th) Locals say that the boys had been picked up and beaten up badly by the police. One of them in a semi-conscious state overheard the police say that "iska to encounter kar dete hai", ( We should finish him off in an encounter). The boys were being taken to the Noida-Ghaziabad border where there is a stretch of uninhabited land. As the police van passed through Jamia, the boys started shouting for help. At this a huge crowd descended. The police deployed some 2000 riot control personnel.   Ambarien  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 10:36:45 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:36:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810172025n4f559de6ra98f732d0c65d4ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6353c690810171217g70b60385i875671f7f50ed14@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810172025n4f559de6ra98f732d0c65d4ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810172206w4c46ffd6oce20c909d4cc5453@mail.gmail.com> Inder Salim, Seems your computer hasn't still been cured. The Caps Lock is still stuck deep inside. Let it breathe at least.. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, inder salim wrote: > > IT IS ALWAYS A USUAL INTRODUCTION TO ONE'S OWN SELF, WHATEVER THE SUBJECT > > > Dear Chanchal ji, > > a couple of days back, after the wonderful presentation by Hans > Belting on Arab Science and Renaissance Art, a gentleman asked a > question about palmistry, and you know what happened, people started > leaving the hall at IGNCA. to my surpris the gentleman said said > that whatever hunch you ( Mr. Belting's ) have on Alhazen... ( the > great scientist ) > > so, > > with love and regards > is > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:47 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Prabhakar, > > > > It was actually, Shuddha's usual introduction of his-own-self. How can he > > not reflect his true street character ? :-) > > > > He better stay in his comfort zone; in his dreams - the intellectual he > is > > !! > > > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > >> > >> Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' > and > >> insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > >> Prabhakar > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > >> Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> > >> Chanchal, you moron, > >> > >> 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > >> the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > >> 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > >> Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > >> religion. > >> 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > >> actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > >> outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > >> Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > >> There is nothing wrong with that. > >> 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > >> communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > >> Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > >> Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > >> neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > >> in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > >> how I see my own faith or doubts). > >> > >> WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > >> are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > >> either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > >> ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > >> Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > >> actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > >> words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > >> bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > >> > >> Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > >> depths of your ignorance. > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > >> > >> > India is secular: > >> > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > >> > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > >> > have that. > >> > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >> > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > >> > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > >> > own motherland > >> > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > >> > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >> > > >> > Not to say the last words.. > >> > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > >> > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > >> > because we chose to remain Hindu. > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > >> > From: Vedavati Jogi > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> > To: "Javed" > >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > >> > > >> > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > >> > Engineer. > >> > > >> > vedavati > >> > > >> > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > >> > > >> > From: Javed > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> > To: "sarai list" > >> > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > >> > > >> > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> > > >> > Asghar Ali Engineer > >> > > >> > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > >> > > >> > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > >> > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > >> > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > >> > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > >> > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > >> > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > >> > as linguistic. > >> > > >> > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > >> > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > >> > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > >> > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > >> > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > >> > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > >> > > >> > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > >> > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > >> > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > >> > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > >> > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > >> > articulate and loud. > >> > > >> > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > >> > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > >> > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > >> > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > >> > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > >> > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > >> > > >> > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > >> > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > >> > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > >> > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > >> > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > >> > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > >> > > >> > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > >> > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > >> > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > >> > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > >> > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > >> > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > >> > > >> > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > >> > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > >> > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > >> > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > >> > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > >> > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > >> > > >> > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > >> > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > >> > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > >> > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > >> > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > >> > > >> > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > >> > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > >> > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > >> > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > >> > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > >> > districts, is indeed hair raising. > >> > > >> > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > >> > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > >> > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > >> > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > >> > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > >> > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > >> > > >> > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > >> > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > >> > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > >> > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > >> > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > >> > just look on. > >> > > >> > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > >> > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > >> > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > >> > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > >> > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > >> > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > >> > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > >> > > >> > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > >> > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > >> > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > >> > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > >> > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > >> > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > >> > with America than the communal explosion back home. > >> > > >> > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > >> > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > >> > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > >> > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > >> > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > >> > license to function freely. > >> > > >> > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > >> > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > >> > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > >> > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > >> > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > >> > never before. > >> > > >> > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > >> > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > >> > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > >> > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > >> > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > >> > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > >> > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > >> > > >> > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > >> > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > >> > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > >> > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > >> > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > >> > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > >> > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > >> > 'shameful'. > >> > > >> > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > >> > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > >> > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > >> > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > >> > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > >> > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > >> > its complete inability to control communal violence. > >> > > >> > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > >> > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > >> > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > >> > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > >> > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > >> > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > >> > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > >> > Hitler. > >> > > >> > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > >> > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > >> > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > >> > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > >> > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > >> > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > >> > > >> > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > >> > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > >> > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > >> > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > >> > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > >> > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > >> > terrorists'. > >> > > >> > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > >> > play determined role things can get far more worse. > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in > >> > the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > >> > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in > >> > the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> Raqs Media Collective > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> www.sarai.net > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: > >> > >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > >> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 10:37:27 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:37:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810172207g37fbd033vc5b4c9c202c92322@mail.gmail.com> I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. You are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, then I suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out on your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, then address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > Prabhakar > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Chanchal, you moron, > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > religion. > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > There is nothing wrong with that. > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > depths of your ignorance. > > Shuddha > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > India is secular: > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > have that. > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > own motherland > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "Javed" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > Engineer. > > > > vedavati > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > From: Javed > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > as linguistic. > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > articulate and loud. > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > just look on. > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > license to function freely. > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > never before. > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > 'shameful'. > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > Hitler. > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > terrorists'. > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 10:42:04 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 01:12:04 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Another 'encounter' averted in Jamia area? References: <759736.5388.qm@web25504.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <96E4105A10284E5D9706BA456FE9ED76@shabori> So we are reaching (if we haven't already reached) that stage where we will defend the chain snatchers and other criminals on the basis of their faith? Hindus will give protection to Hindu chain snatchers, pedophiles, molesters and Muslims will do likewise? A Hindu thief will scream for help in the vicinity of Jhandevalan (RSS office) and Muslim thief close to Jamia? All I can think of is Kamleshwar's "Kitne Pakistan". ----- Original Message ----- From: "ambarien qadar" To: ; "vikalp" Cc: "ambarien" Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Another 'encounter' averted in Jamia area? > > Dear all, > > This is to add to Yousuf's mail by the same heading on this list. > The incident happened on the night of 16th Oct. The next day the English > press reported the incident as follows: > The police was trying to nab two young boys who were chain snatchers. > Locals misunderstood the intentions of the police and infact two policemen > were beaten up by the crowd. (The Indian Express, Oct 17th) > Locals say that the boys had been picked up and beaten up badly by the > police. One of them in a semi-conscious state overheard the police say > that "iska to encounter kar dete hai", ( We should finish him off in an > encounter). > The boys were being taken to the Noida-Ghaziabad border where there is a > stretch of uninhabited land. As the police van passed through Jamia, the > boys started shouting for help. At this a huge crowd descended. The police > deployed some 2000 riot control personnel. > > Ambarien > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 10:44:33 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:44:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0810172207g37fbd033vc5b4c9c202c92322@mail.gmail.com> References: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48c2916d0810172207g37fbd033vc5b4c9c202c92322@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810172214g7ee80e62o9ce4a0d80cb70310@mail.gmail.com> Aarti ji, Was this High-School unwanted lecture addressed to your friend Shuddha ? If not, then you have a serious problem. Propaganda will remain a Propaganda. will it change ? We all obviously know who the trash people are (label:fake). And, they all so need be gifted with a delicate brain to be honest and genuine. Till then there are few out here who can help in. We sympathise with you and your gang. Do not consider yourself lonely. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. You > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, then > I > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out on > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, then > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. > > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. > Shuddha > is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it would be > insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh > wrote: > > > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > > Prabhakar > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Chanchal, you moron, > > > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > > religion. > > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > > There is nothing wrong with that. > > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > > depths of your ignorance. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > India is secular: > > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > > have that. > > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > > own motherland > > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "Javed" > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > > Engineer. > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > > > From: Javed > > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > > as linguistic. > > > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > > articulate and loud. > > > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > > just look on. > > > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > > license to function freely. > > > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > > never before. > > > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > > 'shameful'. > > > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > > Hitler. > > > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > > terrorists'. > > > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 10:48:09 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:48:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <6353c690810172214g7ee80e62o9ce4a0d80cb70310@mail.gmail.com> References: <626856.34612.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48c2916d0810172207g37fbd033vc5b4c9c202c92322@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810172214g7ee80e62o9ce4a0d80cb70310@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810172218j18e48131x2fb947c848381248@mail.gmail.com> you really crack me up Aditya. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Aarti ji, Was this High-School unwanted lecture addressed to your friend > Shuddha ? If not, then you have a serious problem. Propaganda will remain a > Propaganda. will it change ? > > We all obviously know who the trash people are (label:fake). And, they all > so need be gifted with a delicate brain to be honest and genuine. Till then > there are few out here who can help in. We sympathise with you and your > gang. Do not consider yourself lonely. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 10/18/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, > > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But > > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. > You > > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, > then > > I > > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out > on > > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, > then > > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say > > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than > > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, > > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. > > > > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. > > Shuddha > > is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it would > be > > insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh > > wrote: > > > > > > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' > and > > > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > > > Prabhakar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > Chanchal, you moron, > > > > > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > > > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > > > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > > > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > > > religion. > > > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > > > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > > > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > > > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > > > There is nothing wrong with that. > > > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > > > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > > > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > > > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > > > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > > > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > > > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > > > > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > > > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > > > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > > > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > > > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > > > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > > > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > > > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > > > > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > > > depths of your ignorance. > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > > > India is secular: > > > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > > > have that. > > > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > > > own motherland > > > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > To: "Javed" > > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > > > Engineer. > > > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Javed > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > To: "sarai list" > > > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > > > as linguistic. > > > > > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and > despite > > > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's > demand > > > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > > > articulate and loud. > > > > > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check > until > > > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian > nationalism > > > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than > the > > > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the > Hindutva > > > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and > 35 > > > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar > that > > > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally > targeted > > > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all > to > > > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > > > just look on. > > > > > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and > the > > > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > > > license to function freely. > > > > > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > > > never before. > > > > > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the > newspapers > > > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems > except > > > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to > Hindutva > > > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > > > 'shameful'. > > > > > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of > Orissa. > > > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > > > Hitler. > > > > > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot > after > > > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > > > terrorists'. > > > > > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite > and > > > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 10:49:45 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani... Message-ID: <142164.55697.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a need of peace-maker also alogwith the pace-maker. ----- Original Message ---- From: Tapas Ray To: sarai list Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 1:34:22 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani... Aditya, If I remember correctly, you posted something three or four days ago, to the effect that the man was going to have that operation. I'm sure everyone got the point you were trying to make, which is the contradiction between Geelani's words and his deeds, at least when it came to his own wellbeing. There is no sense in providing us with a running commentary on his health now. Tapas 2008/10/17 Aditya Raj Kaul : >  Phir Bhi Dil Hai > Hindustani... > "Hum > Pakistan hain, Pakistan hamara hai" > > ..So goes Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the grand old man of the Kashmiri > seperatists struggle. But perhaps now, after his fifth operation, he will > have to add 'par mera pacemaker hindustani hai'. > > Mr Geelani recently had an operation in Delhi's Escorts hospital to have his > pacemaker replaced. There can be little doubt as to who funded this > operation in this top hospital of the Indian capital where not many of the > cities residents itself would think of getting admitted due to the costs > involved. > > Read more here - > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/10/phir-bhi-dil-hai-hindustani.html > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On behalf of 'Roots In Kashmir' > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 10:54:29 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 01:24:29 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <248261.18047.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <248261.18047.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hear! Hear! 2008/10/17 chanchal malviya : > Even though I attack Islam and Christianity, I do not hate their followers... I am attacking the wrong teachings.. But all of your languages reflect hatred towards people... Keep waiting, Chanchal. And while you wait, try to reflect on the saying "those who live by the sword, die by the sword". > We will wait for the time.. If not you, your children will surely have to answer to your anti-national concept of Secularism and anti-Hindutva... Because you are betraying the very character of this motherland - Hinduism.... > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 11:16:17 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:16:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same act by another. Munaafaqat? In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810170531x7855cda0ye0f49cffc1ca71c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <155711.67124.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70810170531x7855cda0ye0f49cffc1ca71c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810172246g199c5595s6985f449551b7655@mail.gmail.com> You Will remain a Cheap Politician, hunting to APPEASE Muslims for God knows WHAT ? Till the time you remain INDER SALIM; a mistaken identity. Or, Major Identity Crisis. You didn't understand the meaning of your own sur-name "Tickoo" and how it originated. What can be most unfortunate ? Also, take it as a warning if you want; you need not write KP brethren. What for am I one for you ? Kshmendra ji, quoted your double standards so well. Now, that you are exposed in every one's eyes; you are hiding behind immature excuses. Do you really think you have an understanding on Kashmir ? "Mot lagun karse band weny" Hope you wake up from this deep sleep. Don't worry, I'll continue to wake you up. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > dear Kshmendra > > logically you are right, like efficient advocate, but what you miss is > the subject logic is not the only key to all the kinds of discourses > in the world. > > one was the simple forward of a news item on Zardari which was meant > to appease the USA, > and other was about a deep thing, it prompted me to write on death, > intense subject, i like to talk about it endlessly. > > besides that, i find most of your reflection on List quite > interesting and not in variance with what i think, be it caste or > understanding of religion. there is nothing wrong to be boldly known > as kashmiri pandit, but a sudden solidarity in support of KP brethren > make it a little shallow. with due regards to your observation on my > different take on matters which are similar. we differ on > understanding on kashmir, but that normal. kashmir is a subject which > generates outlooks, we are not the only exceptions. > > needless to say that how many times my identity as INDER SALIM has > been abused by the same KP brethren, and your silence on that > disappointed me. truly. > > i am really expecting much more than what you tell us through your > reflections. > > you certainly have cultivated a better logistic than me, but as my > younger brother, i suggest you to be cooler > > with lot of love > is > > > > > On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Syed Yunus > > > > Were you suggesting that I had maligned Inder Salim? > > > > If not, then please ignore this post and read no further. > > > > On the other hand if you were actually suggesting that I had maligned > Inder Salim then I would request you to think before making such foolish > pronouncements. > > > > To malign someone is to accuse them falsely of something. > > > > I highlighted two resposnes of Inder Salim to two identical types of > postings. I highlighted his hypocrisy in berating one for posting a News > Item and praising another one for doing the same. Those were representations > of Inder Salim's contradictions. > > > > Where was the maligning if what i presented was factual? Think. Think > Think. > > > > Now there is a new question (inspired by your very own): > > > > How should one consider this person Syed Yunus who MALIGNED me by falsely > accusing me of maligning someone?????? > > > > I hope the List Administrator makes a note of your having MALIGNED me. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > ( I would have sent this as a private mail if not for the fact that you > MALIGNED me in the 'public space' of this List) > > > > > > > > - On Mon, 10/13/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > > > > From: Syed Yunus > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Condemning one person's act; praising the same > act by another. Munaafaqat? > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 11:25 AM > > > > > > Im not interested in ' how should one consider this person Inder > salim' but im concern about how should one person consider people, who say, > write, & lobby to malign somebody. > > > > > > On 10/12/08, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > What should one call it when a person condemns an act by someone and > praises an identical act by someone else? > > > > ACT A ------ > > > > On Oct 6, '08 - Pawan Durrani posts "J&K Militants are terrorists : > Pakistan President". He reproduces the news item and gives the weblink. > > > > He introduces it with the comment "An interesting and important statement > from Pakistan President .........". > > > > (Not so humbly put) Reaction from Inder Salim to Pawan Durrani --------- > " WE ALL READ DAILY NEWSPAPERS . WE KNOW IT. WHAT IS POINT TO FORWARD IT? > UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING TO ADD . > > HUMBLY > > IS > > > > ACT B ------- > > > > One day later, on Oct 7, '08 - In an identical act, Naeem Mohaimen > posts "FINANCE: Karthik Rajaram Kills Family, Himself". He too reproduces > the news item and gives the weblink. > > > > Naeem makes no comment as an introduction to the news item. > > > > Response from Inder Salim to Naeem Mohaimen --------- "thanks for > forwarding the news item which appeared in all the daily news papers all > over the world." > > > > How should one consider this person Inder Salim? > > > > This comes in quick succession after the List Administrator similarly > displayed hypocritical attitudes by de-listing one person for abusive > language and not having taken similar action against another person who also > had used abusive language ( equally abusive and crude) > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > > > > Change is the only constant in life ! > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 11:46:57 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <671465.47088.qm@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called knowledge and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other members freely at their will by calling them "moron", "fool","senseless", "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people from this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to unsubscribe. ________________________________ From: Aarti Sethi To: Prabhakar Singh Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. You are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, then I suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out on your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, then address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. Prabhakar   ----- Original Message ---- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Chanchal, you moron, 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is  the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in  Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any  religion. 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite  actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu  outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims,  Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them.  There is nothing wrong with that. 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them  communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the  Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the  Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me  neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested  in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of  how I see my own faith or doubts). WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you  are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing,  either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and  ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud  Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices  actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the  words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics  bring shame and dishonour to theirs. Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless  depths of your ignorance. Shuddha On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > India is secular: > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not  > have that. > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged  > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their  > own motherland > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be  > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > Not to say the last words.. > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or  > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies  > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > From: Vedavati Jogi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "Javed" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali  > Engineer. > > vedavati > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > From: Javed > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > as linguistic. > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > articulate and loud. > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > just look on. > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > license to function freely. > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > never before. > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > 'shameful'. > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > Hitler. > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > terrorists'. > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > play determined role things can get far more worse. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > >      Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 12:00:59 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:00:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <671465.47088.qm@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <671465.47088.qm@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810172330gb662b4cp6397a331521324c9@mail.gmail.com> Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are in trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on part of so called List Administrators.. So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making > personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy > language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called knowledge > and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other > members freely at their will by calling them "moron", "fool","senseless", > "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System > Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people from > this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to unsubscribe. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Aarti Sethi > To: Prabhakar Singh > Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. You > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, then I > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out on > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, then > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. > > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. > Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it > would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh < > prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > Prabhakar > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Chanchal, you moron, > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > religion. > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > There is nothing wrong with that. > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > depths of your ignorance. > > Shuddha > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > India is secular: > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > have that. > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > own motherland > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "Javed" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > Engineer. > > > > vedavati > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > From: Javed > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > as linguistic. > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > articulate and loud. > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > just look on. > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > license to function freely. > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > never before. > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > 'shameful'. > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > Hitler. > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > terrorists'. > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: From navayana at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 12:08:10 2008 From: navayana at gmail.com (Navayana Publishing) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:08:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Help with a phrase In-Reply-To: <6353c690810151106u99aeb9eg96721452629dab00@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880810150025r7e30f0e5k3fd7eb69faaf7cce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810151106u99aeb9eg96721452629dab00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Sanjay! I did not know Jashn-e-Azadi was a blockbuster movie! I was under the impression that it was rather sombre documentary... but then, the real documentaries on Kashmir had Shammy Kapoor rolling in the snow and singing yahoooo or saira banu preening as the kashmir ki kali; and then there was the starkly real Roja, and more recently Yahaan.While Manirathnam makes documentaries, you are the real blockuster maker, funded surely by the Mumbai underworld (of course, also the terror-funders)... Anand On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Well said Lalitji. I need not say anything more. Its self explanatory. > > Just wanted to add something interesting in a news item; informing people > about Syed Ali Shah Geelani's surgery in the Indian Capital. In a > blockbuster movie titled "Jashn-e-Aazadi" (read: Freedom to kill Kashmiri > Pandits) directed by none other than Sanjay Kak (Need I say more?!); > Geelani > goes on to say; even if they (India) lay roads of gold for us; we won't > accept them. We'll boycott just everything. > > Wonder how the Indian Pacemaker works out well with him? Indian Pacemaker > Battery is worse? He shouldn't take chances I guess. Read the attached > story > for more on this. > > I'll return hale and hearty: Geelani* > > Rising Kashmir News* > > Srinagar, Oct 10: Two days ahead of his departure for treatment in Delhi, > Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman, Syed Ali Geelani expressed hope that he > will return home hale and hearty after the surgery. > > "Indian agencies attacked me 14 times but they could not take away even my > single hair. I will be return soon hale and hearty after undergoing > treatment in Delhi's Escorts hospital," the septuagenarian leader said. > > Geelani said the pacemaker in his heart installed on April 25, 1997 is one > of the longest living pacemakers. "Its battery has to be replaced and > people > should not work. It will be a normal treatment," said Geelani. > > "Doctors SKIMS has advised me to go for the intestinal checkup > (gastroenterology) at Delhi. I will leave for treatment to Delhi Sunday > afternoon and will be treated by the doctors at Escorts hospital," he > added. > > Geelani to have pacemaker change > Kashmir Watch > > Srinagar, Oct 8: Hurriyat Conference (G) Chairman, Syed Ali Geelani, was > discharged from Sher-e-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences, Soura, with > an > advice for a pacemaker change in New Delhi's Escort's Hospital. > > He is likely to leave for New Delhi on October, 12 but will attend the > Co-ordination Committee meet scheduled for today. > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 10/15/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > > > This is no ignorance but a syndrome. Quite typical of those who refuse to > > see or hear any thing that doesn't suit their senses or their uni-track > > ideological persuasions or personal interests. Anyway here is the update. > > > > "Azadi- bara- e- Islam" (freedom through Islam) is just an improvised > > version of those more familiar provocations like "hum ko kya chahiye- > > azadi, azadi ka matlab kya- la ilah e ilallah" (what do we > > want-independence, what dose independence mean- la ilah e ilallah) and > > "yahan kya chalega –Nizam e Mustafa" (what will rule here- Nizam e > Mustafa) > > etc.etc. (it is hoped ignorance is not feigned about these as well) often > > resorted to by the Kashmiri pan Islaimists seeking secession of Muslim > > majority Kashmir valley from India. > > > > This one 'azadi bara e Islam' was raised recently when the Kashmiri pan > > Islamists exhibited rabid intolerance against the allocation of a mere > 100 > > acres of land for temporary facilities along arduous Amarnath pilgrimage > > route by none other than that senior Islamist who also attempted to seek > > exclusive leadership rights in his favour from the zealots much to the > > annoyance of the other contenders. He is the guy who was airlifted in a > > state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to Mumbai for treatment not long > ago. > > Oh, yes he is also seen in that 'devotional' film 'Jashn e azadi' > consoling > > the wailing relatives of dead militants & justifying their martyrdom > citing > > holy scriptures. > > > > What is so particular about the period 2003-2008?Yes, this is the > > period when tourism has picked up in Kashmir, property values have gone > up > > – properties left by exiled Hindu Pandits usurped & sold & resold on > > premium- you have malls & above all you see all those terror commanders > who > > should be tried for crimes against humanity going around as politicians ( > > makeover courtesy same self acclaimed unitrack liberal mindset). > > > > And what about the period 1989-90, when the process of ethnic cleansing > of > > Hindu Pandits was launched? By the way, there was this rabid one then > "asy > > gasce Pakistan- batav rocs ta batnev san" (we want Pakistan- along with > the > > Hindu Pandit women but without the Pandit men) or that killer one "Raliv, > > galiv, ya caliv" (join, perish or flee). These were some of the rants > along > > with the then freshly acquired AK47s that were used against the > beleaguered > > Hindu Pandits. Doesn't suit the senses so feign ignorance. Or is it that > > 'devotional' films are not expected to show gory pictures of brutalities > > committed by the protagonists. > > > > > > And yes, it is heartening to know that 'frozen turbulence is finally > being > > referred to albeit selectively to suit the senses. > > Regards all > > LA > > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:55:54 +0530> From: kaksanjay at gmail.com> To: > > reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Help with a phrase> > > Since > > this List is fast emerging as a one-stop resource on all things to do> > with > > Kashmir, I wonder if someone could help with a phrase that I've started> > > encountering quite frequently in posts here: 'azadi bara e islam' > (freedom> > > through Islam), presumably as a slogan raised in/about Kashmir.> Since > this > > is not a slogan that I've heard in Kashmir in the period 2003-08,> and or > > even encountered (oops! bad word) in my reading of old classics such> as > > Jagmohan's "My Frozen Turbulence", I would really like to know what the> > > provenance of this phrase is.> Is this a recent slogan in Kashmir? Is it > an > > old one?> With all thanks for the help> Sanjay Kak> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Navayana Publishing M-110 (First Floor) Saket New Delhi--110017 Ph: +91 9971433117 Registered address: Navayana Publishing 54, I Floor Savarirayalu Stree Pondicherry 605001 Ph: 91-413-2223337 Mobile: 91-94430-33305 www.navayana.org Join Navayana Book Club and avail free books and special discounts! http://www.navayana.org/display.php?id=5 From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 18 12:12:13 2008 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:42:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Another 'encounter' averted in Jamia area? In-Reply-To: <96E4105A10284E5D9706BA456FE9ED76@shabori> Message-ID: <116914.78094.qm@web25508.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> There is no evidence to prove that the boys were chain-snatchers. It is a cooked-up, comfortable story at a time when things got out of control.   Ambarien Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 13:02:42 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:02:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Another 'encounter' averted in Jamia area? In-Reply-To: <116914.78094.qm@web25508.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <96E4105A10284E5D9706BA456FE9ED76@shabori> <116914.78094.qm@web25508.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810180032n76bc5b8cj711e130e4f69a97e@mail.gmail.com> And, you have no evidence to prove that they weren't chain snatchers. Even yours seems to be a cooked up story... 2000 riot control personnel ? ...LOL Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, ambarien qadar wrote: > > There is no evidence to prove that the boys were chain-snatchers. It is a > cooked-up, comfortable story at a time when things got out of control. > > > Ambarien > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat Oct 18 13:12:07 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:42:07 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" In-Reply-To: <48F603C2.2010007@gmail.com> References: <246011.80423.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48F603C2.2010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Tapas, You seem to have drawn conclusions even without having read my post. Nowhere have I mentioned any thing to suggest even remotely what all you have alleged. Do you mean to say that to raise concerns about the menace of pan Islamism inspired terrorism that is prevailing in Kashmir for the past two decades & is also now increasing spreading in rest of india amounts to being anti Muslim? I feel pain & anguish over the sufferings of credulous Muslims who are falling prey to indoctrination & religious blackmail & it is certainly not to appease you. But you seem to be justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu Pandits in Kashmir. We are supposed to be discussing here issues which are often serious in nature & in absence of mutual respect the discussion will only be reduced to acrimony & squabbles. It should not matter whose name sounds what. Please desist from promoting apartheid on the forum. I also wish to point out that you don't require a guaranteer to become a member on this list & you have done no favours to Mr. Prabhakar by introducing him to the forum. If he was worthy enough to support you on an alma mater related issue , he could be capable enough to articulate opinion on even more serious issues concerning the country. Why should you feel so let down by his opinion which as you have indicated does not match with yours. I do not know Mr. Prabhakar personally & I need not necessarily be in agreement or disagreement with him on issues, but you can not deprive him or for that matter anybody of his or her right to speak. It is unfortunate that a 'ban' was issued earlier against a member & let that not become a tool to muzzle opinion. Regards LA ps: It is not necessary to draw the gun just after mere scanning of the posts. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:50 -0400> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"> > Dear Prabhakar and Lalit,> > Prabhakar, as you were my batchmate at one of the IITs and I am the one > who introduced you to this list in the context of a list member's > abusive attack on our common alma mater, I must confess to being a > little concerned about offending you with this post, in which I shall be > contradicting your argument. Hope you will take it not personally but in > the spirit of a reasoned conversation about an extremely divisive issue > that is vitally important to us both and to every Indian, and indirectly > important to the rest of the world.> > Although I simply cannot afford to take the time to read Reader-list > posts at this time, much less post comments myself, I am now writing > specifically with you in mind, because I would like you, as my > batchmate, to know what I think is correct and why I think so. Apologies > in advance if I take a long time to respond to your, Lalit's or anyone > else's response to this post.> > That said, what I understand from a quick scan of the two comments > posted by the two of you (below) is that (a) Hindus are treated shabbily > in India, (b) Hindu extremism is a reaction to Muslim extremism in > Kashmir, and (c) someone with a Muslim name (partly in the case of > Samina) should not criticize views held by Hindus - a *section* of > Hindus in this case, as your views are not held by all Hindus as you can > see on this list, as well as in the election results of the last decade > or more.> > I think those Hindus who believe in argument (a) need to rethink the > issue in light of concrete socio-economic indicators, such as levels of > employment, education, etc., which are far lower for Muslims as far as I > know (though cannot cite figures at this time) and social practices that > result from a view - held to this day by what I believe is a large > section of Hindus - of Muslims as being alien and socially unacceptable. > A linguistic expression of this is the practice of referring to Muslims > in the words for which Radhikarajen was banned from this list. It would > be inappropriate to mention here the very common Hindi word of the > street which Radhikarajen translated into English, and which I am sure > most if not all Indians on this list are already familiar with.> > Argument (b) is ahistorical in my opinion. Radical Hinduism in fact > preceded not only radical Islamism but even Jinnah-style Islamic > politics. I pointed this out to Radhikarajen in the course of a > prolonged conversation. Please excuse me for being unable to reproduce > it here, but it can be found in the archive.> > As for argument (c), I think one's affiliation is irrelevant to his or > her right to criticize something. The argument that someone with a Hindu > name should not criticize the views of some Hindus or even Hinduism > itself, goes against modern values, which since the Enlightenment has > taught us to be rational, i.e., judge everything by reason and nothing > else. There are different kinds of rationality, of course, and > Enlightenment rationality has had some very negative consequences, but I > am referring specifically to that aspect of it which taught Christians > to criticize and challenge the church in Europe and Indian Hindus to > criticize and challenge Hinduism in the "Indian/Bengal Renaissance".> > The first led to an arguably better Christianity (in most denominations) > without excommunication, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. The > second led to an arguably better Hinduism *as a whole* without sati > (with exceptions that take place even now), virulent casteism (except > for certain regions in which caste-based killings and massacres still > take place now and then), ban on widow remarriage, etc., and a kind of > liberalism in Indian society as a whole, reflected in the Constitution, > that would have been unthinkable before it - and aspects of which, such > as the ban on sati, the already enlightened British rulers initially > opposed on political considerations.> > The question now is, are we ready to renounce those values? Personally, > I consider myself perfectly within my rights to criticize not only my > own religion but also my ethnic group, city, state, country, alma mater > and so on, right down to my own parents.> > Best,> > Tapas> > > Prabhakar Singh wrote:> > I agree with you Lalit !> > One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide.> > Regards,> > Prabhakar> > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Lalit Ambardar > > To: Samina Mishra ; reader-list at sarai.net> > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today"> > > > One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history.> > > > If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route at those uninhabitable heights.> > Similarly no concern is shown for those credulous wailing mothers,orphans,widows whose dear ones continue to fall prey to pan islamic indoctrination & the mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from secular india. Terror commanders who self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks, courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest & the police action that followed).> > > > To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to avenge some perceived injustice back home.> > > > And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly.> > There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie.> > Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the valentine even.> > > > Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building process.Let us stop being parochial & selective.> > Regards all> > LA> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Search for videos of Bollywood, Hollywood, Mollywood and every other wood, only on Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 13:13:45 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:13:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular India and its citizens rant and rublings.? In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810170502n57c9f65bpb4399a2e80192b66@mail.gmail.com> References: <469555.34578.qm@web94906.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70810170502n57c9f65bpb4399a2e80192b66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810180043v7f231d71y98aa7b50a408651c@mail.gmail.com> INDER SALIM - I wonder, if you at all have been to this place called "SCHOOL" ? Rajendra has a valid point; have the balls to hear the other view point or just 'get lost' - will you ? "A true secular school and crap...." - You just go on and on speaking mindlessly... Secular in today's India means "Muslim Appeasement".......Wherever Muslims are in minority; have a secular image....and wherever Muslims are in majority....just make is Islamic everywhere. There are loads of examples for you to study....You can begin with your on Kashmir and Gujarat. I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it. It is by far the most communal and dangerous. Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > dear Rajendra > > the moment you write " IN AYODHYA, THE DILAPIDATED STRUCTURE" any one > on the list will know which school you belong, > > and i see no harm if people from secular school bluntly says to you : be > queit. > > you need to realize that most of shrines are dilapidated structures, > be it a temple or a mosque even. > > how historicity speaks through these half broken structures is the > most intersting thing about human civilization and its past. Offering > prayers at a structure does not it meaningful or makes it impotent if > there is none. > > . it is the thing-in-itself which has to be taken in on as it is basis, > > the only recommended alteration to such things is allowed through > retoration of it, but never its demolition. > > now.if you think that we too should be quite, then you are again > wasting your time on the List. because your way of living is markedly > different from those who want to question the violence. Sacred texts > are calling you, and those politicians urgently need you who mix > hinduism and nationalism in on go. > > A true secular school is interested in ethics, justice moral > judgement and respect to the other, there is no space for violence, > any kind of violence. We need to know what is tolerance all about. It > is entirely about the other. > > so my dear friend, i know you are not alone, on the list or out there, > but i have no choice but to oppose the kind of thinking you are trying > to impose on others. > > i have nothing but love for you > > is > > > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 4:17 PM, rajendra bhat > > wrote: > > Headmistress of which school is asking the students to be quiet.?Is this > the way > > to behave in the list.? > > Moderator please be alert for this inept responses.! > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Aarti Sethi > > To: rajendra bhat > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 2:53:15 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69, secular > India and its citizens rant and rublings.? > > > > > > oh be quiet! > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:28 PM, rajendra bhat < > raja_starkglass at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > It was a week of rant and rumblings for all citizens about secular india > and its life as secular republic. Mr. Asgar Ali Enginneer articulated his > observations of secular india, which for most part are accurate and correct > about being the citizens going for the crisis in identity of being Indian > for the other prioritised identity of being marati, tamil or linguistic id > or the caste id in the last sixty years of free India. But all his thoughts > were clouded by one black paint, -- his hate for RSS, rastriya swayam sevak > sangh.Many "secular" citizens and the followers of other faith have been > consistently fed with the pison that RSS is fascist, RSS is against other > faiths, RSS does not like muslims, christians etc. RSS ka havva dikake rule > karne ka chance ab khatham hogaya, bhai, asgar engineer. > > > > Many citizens now have forgotten the role of RSS in the situations when > the nation was facing calamities and crisis. Ofcourse the left parties even > today active in propaganda against RSS when they hit out their muslim > citizens in singur or nandigram, where muslims peasants and poor villagers > were the worst vistims.! > > > > In the last sixty years of free India, there is distinct three > generations of indians who have seen free India, -----from 1945 to 1965 as > midnight children of free India, who are fed with thaparite history of > India, > > -------from 1965 to 1985 who have seen the free India with all its riots > and communal appeasements and the aspirations of citizens being thwarted by > dynastic rule of the family and its sycophantic hangers on.The three wars > with Pakistan, and china and the role of the left parties during these > wars.The role of RSS in national calamity be it kashmir aggression in 1948, > be it 1962 chinese aggression when RSS volanteers worked with defence forces > in civil control and other duties, or the cyclone in eastern coast of India > ,in particular, Andhra where none dared to touch the dead bodies of victims, > when RSS volanteers were the ones who gave decent burials and cremation to > the dead, irrespective of the faith of the vistims, is forgotten.During the > mergency imposed, the RSS was in the forefront to struggle for the rights > and freedom of all citizens, again it never claimed any credit for the work > as it is national duty that it performed with its volanteers. > > > > The critical phase is the third phase, the present, where the this > generation has citizens who have no respect for their duties but are only > concerned about their rights in national life.. From 1985 to now, we have > seen the "intellectuals" of the all political spectrum taking the new > thoughts of nation without boundaries, walking and talking republic > citizens, who want all the rights but do not take any responsibilty for the > duties of the citizens.! The very idea of rights without responsibilty is > irresponsible citizenship. Then came the bunch of NGOs, rights activists in > this present national life, for whom, the rights means only those rights of > deviant citizens.? Law abiding citizens have no rights.? Here lies the > danger of undermining the law keepers by law breakers in free India. It is > ridiculous to see the NGOs defending the terror accused of one community > only, and the basic fault line lies in law enforcers not acting quickly when > any deviant > > behaviour occurs. In Godhra, if the action of burning the compartment > was violent deviant criminal act, it was expected that the law would take > immediate action to prosecute those involved, irrespective of the faith of > such criminals, to book, prosecute and punish such deviant crime and > behaviour. It did not happen. > > > > In Ayodhya, a dilapidated structure which was not used for prayer > offerings for decades was disputed land, pending in the courts for decades, > nay almost century.. Prompt action from leadership of all the citizens > involved would have ended in harmony and good national life of love and > compassion, no, it never happened, a PM used it to appease hindu votes for > his decaying oldest party, even though the leader himself was considered > honest, Mr. Clean.To balance the act, personal laws of minority was tampered > to alimony issues. Now the battle lines were drawn to fight with each other, > thanks to this leadership, interference in the internal matters of another > nation, Sri Lanka was another hall mark, with LTTE getting overt and covet > support from this leader, for which he had to pay with his life., thus > dravidian appeasement was the name of the game. With divided citizens along > the faith, region and caste lines, who got the benefi to rule.? The lady > from the > > back alleys of london, a bar tender who was in certificate course in > English.But more importantly, the lady represented that 2 percent community, > to rule, after the slavery of british days.! Divided citizens today have > forgotten that they are indians first, the faith and region have taken over > the id. More the division, better it is for the corrupt to rule, and it is > easier for the rulers to be dictators. > > > > Wake up, id forgotten citzens, your id is indian, not of any faith in > democracy. Otherwise the bishops will take tothe rule with their proxies. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 7:36:07 AM > > Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 > > > > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray) > > 2. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Tapas Ray) > > 3. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Britta Ohm) > > 4. Re: HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? (Rajkamal Goswami) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:47:14 -0400 > > From: "Tapas Ray" > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > ... and Nepal, which used to be a Hindu state, should be a better > > place for Ms Vedavati Jogi. I don't know if it still is under the > > Maoist-led government, but it doesn't hurt to try, does it, and i am > > sure she would get some support from the ex-king and his people. > > > > > > > > 2008/10/16 Vedavati Jogi : > >> i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > Engineer. > >> > >> vedavati > >> > >> --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > >> > >> From: Javed > >> Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> To: "sarai list" > >> Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > >> > >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> > >> Asghar Ali Engineer > >> > >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > >> > >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > >> as linguistic. > >> > >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > >> > >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often > >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > >> articulate and loud. > >> > >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > >> > >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > >> > >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > >> > >> Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > >> > >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > >> > >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > >> districts, is indeed hair raising. > >> > >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > >> > >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > >> just look on. > >> > >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > >> > >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > >> with America than the communal explosion back home. > >> > >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > >> license to function freely. > >> > >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > >> never before. > >> > >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > >> > >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > >> 'shameful'. > >> > >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > >> its complete inability to control communal violence. > >> > >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > >> Hitler. > >> > >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > >> > >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > >> terrorists'. > >> > >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > >> play determined role things can get far more worse. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.. > yahoo.com/address > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400 > > From: "Tapas Ray" > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > Britta, > > > > Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > > at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > > can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > > sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > > filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > > ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > > territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > > When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > > > > They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > > completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > > intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > > nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > > you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > > time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > > list is not physically wrecked. > > > > Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > > > > Tapas > > > > > > 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > >> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has been > >> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the paradigms > >> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > >> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > >> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > >> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > >> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > >> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, the > >> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > >> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > >> subservience and silent suffering? > >> Britta > >> > >> > >> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >> > >>> India is secular: > >>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > >>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > >>> have that. > >>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > >>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > >>> own motherland > >>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > >>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >>> > >>> Not to say the last words.. > >>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > >>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > >>> because we chose to remain Hindu. > >>> > >>> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:32 +0200 > > From: Britta Ohm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: "Tapas Ray" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai..net > > Message-ID: <39DF362F-54A9-41EB-BD18-C270BFF883C1 at zedat.fu-berlin.de> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed; > > delsp=yes > > > > Thank you, Tapas. I had hoped that - by pre-empting foreseeable > > arguments - the mob could be at least silenced and vacate the chair > > for something nice. It seems to have worked. I know that I don't have > > to die in 'riots', but this list occasionally gives you a virtual idea > > of how it feels if you have survived. It indeed would be funny if it > > wasn't so sad. And do not underestimate the longivity and persistance > > of those we think we can laugh off by ignoring their bad breath. It > > might be longer than ours. > > All best -- Britta > > > > > > Am 16.10.2008 um 23:24 schrieb Tapas Ray: > > > >> Britta, > >> > >> Do not despair. You, I, and others who do not have to die in riots ... > >> at least that is how things have been for me so far, but who knows ... > >> can look at the lighter side. How desperate the writers of these posts > >> sound, going by their tone. I, and probably some others, have simply > >> filtered out some of these folks. But I have kept a few gushers keep > >> ...ing (choose your body-function verb) into my mailbox to mark their > >> territory, so as to amuse myself with the sight, rather perversely. > >> When I decide I have had enough, I will shut out these too. > >> > >> They know they can never win an argument, because they speak a > >> completely different language, which the rest of the members have no > >> intention of speaking. So why do they keep repeating these things ad > >> nauseum? I suspect their intention is not only to hijack this list as > >> you mention but also to *crash the server* if they can't. I think the > >> time will come when they will have to be shown the door so that the > >> list is not physically wrecked. > >> > >> Till then, hold your nose and try to laugh. > >> > >> Tapas > >> > >> > >> 2008/10/16 Britta Ohm : > >>> I'm so so sick of this debate and of witnessing how this list has > >>> been > >>> hijacked and undermined by voices who bespeak how deeply the > >>> paradigms > >>> of Hindutva - that are by now means simple but painstakingly flexible > >>> - have become entrenched in Indian society. And by saying this I > >>> already know the - superficially varied - reactions that will refuse > >>> any responsibility, will advise me, under the pretext of 'not > >>> differentiating' and with the accusation of communalising, to go to > >>> Pakistan, to Rome, to consider the plight of the Kashmiri pundits, > >>> the > >>> injustice done to the 'majority community' and - to leave this list. > >>> Why don't I do it? After hope, is there really only masochism, > >>> subservience and silent suffering? > >>> Britta > >>> > >>> > >>> Am 16.10.2008 um 19:20 schrieb chanchal malviya: > >>> > >>>> India is secular: > >>>> 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > >>>> 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > >>>> have that. > >>>> 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > >>>> 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > >>>> either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > >>>> own motherland > >>>> 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > >>>> secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > >>>> > >>>> Not to say the last words.. > >>>> If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > >>>> Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > >>>> because we chose to remain Hindu. > >>>> > >>>> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > ___________________ > > > > Britta Ohm > > Postdoc > > University of Zurich > > UPRP Asia and Europe > > > > Office: > > Scheuchzerstr. 21 > > 8006 Zürich > > Switzerland > > tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 > > fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 > > britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch > > www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch > > > > Home: > > Solmsstr. 36 > > 10961 Berlin > > Germany > > +49-(0)30-695 07 155 > > ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de > > > > Ekkehardstr. 18 > > 8006 Zürich > > Switzerland > > +41-(0)43-2689077 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:35:55 +0530 > > From: "Rajkamal Goswami" > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > To: Javed > > Cc: sarai list > > Message-ID: > > <9d0d777b0810161905i76290f09od1006a2b02713595 at mail..gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > Dear javed, > > Before writing anything on secularism...I advise you to kindly consult > some > > literature dealing with the concepts of secularism. You have just not > > grasped the true essence of secularism. India was never ever secular nor > it > > ever will be. You will clearly understand it once you > > understand what secularism means. > > > > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Javed wrote: > > > >> HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > >> > >> Asghar Ali Engineer > >> > >> (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > >> > >> There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > >> history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > >> world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > >> when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > >> emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > >> country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > >> as linguistic. > >> > >> However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > >> constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > >> peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > >> nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > >> instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > >> various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > >> > >> Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > >> a category and national identity was of great importance and often > >> caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > >> process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > >> for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > >> articulate and loud. > >> > >> Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > >> versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > >> prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > >> memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > >> still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > >> genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > >> > >> It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > >> proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > >> nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > >> people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > >> 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > >> Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > >> > >> Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > >> climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > >> once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > >> in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > >> in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > >> fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > >> > > >> Now theidentity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > >> considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > >> and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > >> has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > >> religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > >> has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > >> > >> For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > >> Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > >> Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > >> from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > >> to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > >> > >> Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > >> zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > >> minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > >> field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > >> What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > >> districts, is indeed hair raising. > >> > >> More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > >> burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > >> thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > >> A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > >> all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > >> terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > >> > >> Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > >> minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > >> the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > >> and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > >> follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > >> just look on. > >> > >> When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > >> communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > >> took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > >> celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > >> left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > >> withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > >> suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > >> > >> However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > >> Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > >> there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > >> The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > >> betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > >> Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > >> with America than the communal explosion back home. > >> > >> The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > >> ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > >> Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > >> complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > >> our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > >> license to function freely. > >> > >> The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > >> key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > >> Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > >> large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > >> people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > >> never before. > >> > >> Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > >> and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > >> ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > >> investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > >> most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > >> cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > >> for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > >> > >> Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > >> commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > >> communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > >> well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > >> Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > >> forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > >> abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > >> 'shameful'. > >> > >> But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > >> to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > >> demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > >> we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > >> It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > >> secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > >> its complete inability to control communal violence. > >> > >> So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > >> fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > >> footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > >> of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > >> classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > >> numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > >> Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > >> Hitler. > >> > >> Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > >> appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > >> agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > >> from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > >> riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > >> on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > >> > >> It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > >> assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > >> riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > >> Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > >> abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > >> and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > >> terrorists'. > >> > >> The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > >> play determined role things can get far more worse. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajkamal Goswami > > ATREE, Bangalore-24 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > reader-list mailing list > > reader-list at sarai.net > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 69 > > ******************************************* > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.. > yahoo.com/address > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 18 13:44:18 2008 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 08:14:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Another 'encounter' averted in Jamia area? In-Reply-To: <6353c690810180032n76bc5b8cj711e130e4f69a97e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <670447.69466.qm@web25506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Dear Aditya,   I am a bit wary of foregrounding the personal in conversations such as these. Let us not get down to "your story is cooked and not mine". This helps neither of us beyond a point. What is crucial in this case is how multiple narratives emerge around a singular event. What positions we take depends on our own personal histories and where we come from. And if we are not willing to listen to other voices... if we are too obsessed with our own...then is it not pointless?   best Ambarien Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 13:50:02 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 04:20:02 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" In-Reply-To: References: <246011.80423.qm@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48F603C2.2010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lalit, Please read my post again. Also your own. Tapas 2008/10/18 Lalit Ambardar : > Dear Tapas, > You seem to have drawn conclusions even without having read my post. Nowhere > have I mentioned any thing to suggest even remotely what all you have > alleged. > > Do you mean to say that to raise concerns about the menace of pan Islamism > inspired terrorism that is prevailing in Kashmir for the past two decades & > is also now increasing spreading in rest of india amounts to being anti > Muslim? I feel pain & anguish over the sufferings of credulous Muslims who > are falling prey to indoctrination & religious blackmail & it is certainly > not to appease you. But you seem to be justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu > Pandits in Kashmir. > > We are supposed to be discussing here issues which are often serious in > nature & in absence of mutual respect the discussion will only be reduced > to acrimony & squabbles. It should not matter whose name sounds what. Please > desist from promoting apartheid on the forum. > > I also wish to point out that you don't require a guaranteer to become a > member on this list & you have done no favours to Mr. Prabhakar by > introducing him to the forum. If he was worthy enough to support you on an > alma mater related issue , he could be capable enough to articulate > opinion on even more serious issues concerning the country. Why should you > feel so let down by his opinion which as you have indicated does not match > with yours. I do not know Mr. Prabhakar personally & I need not necessarily > be in agreement or disagreement with him on issues, but you can not deprive > him or for that matter anybody of his or her right to speak. It is > unfortunate that a 'ban' was issued earlier against a member & let that not > become a tool to muzzle opinion. > Regards > LA > ps: It is not necessary to draw the gun just after mere scanning of the > posts. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ________________________________ >> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:52:50 -0400 >> From: tapasrayx at gmail.com >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" >> >> Dear Prabhakar and Lalit, >> >> Prabhakar, as you were my batchmate at one of the IITs and I am the one >> who introduced you to this list in the context of a list member's >> abusive attack on our common alma mater, I must confess to being a >> little concerned about offending you with this post, in which I shall be >> contradicting your argument. Hope you will take it not personally but in >> the spirit of a reasoned conversation about an extremely divisive issue >> that is vitally important to us both and to every Indian, and indirectly >> important to the rest of the world. >> >> Although I simply cannot afford to take the time to read Reader-list >> posts at this time, much less post comments myself, I am now writing >> specifically with you in mind, because I would like you, as my >> batchmate, to know what I think is correct and why I think so. Apologies >> in advance if I take a long time to respond to your, Lalit's or anyone >> else's response to this post. >> >> That said, what I understand from a quick scan of the two comments >> posted by the two of you (below) is that (a) Hindus are treated shabbily >> in India, (b) Hindu extremism is a reaction to Muslim extremism in >> Kashmir, and (c) someone with a Muslim name (partly in the case of >> Samina) should not criticize views held by Hindus - a *section* of >> Hindus in this case, as your views are not held by all Hindus as you can >> see on this list, as well as in the election results of the last decade >> or more. >> >> I think those Hindus who believe in argument (a) need to rethink the >> issue in light of concrete socio-economic indicators, such as levels of >> employment, education, etc., which are far lower for Muslims as far as I >> know (though cannot cite figures at this time) and social practices that >> result from a view - held to this day by what I believe is a large >> section of Hindus - of Muslims as being alien and socially unacceptable. >> A linguistic expression of this is the practice of referring to Muslims >> in the words for which Radhikarajen was banned from this list. It would >> be inappropriate to mention here the very common Hindi word of the >> street which Radhikarajen translated into English, and which I am sure >> most if not all Indians on this list are already familiar with. >> >> Argument (b) is ahistorical in my opinion. Radical Hinduism in fact >> preceded not only radical Islamism but even Jinnah-style Islamic >> politics. I pointed this out to Radhikarajen in the course of a >> prolonged conversation. Please excuse me for being unable to reproduce >> it here, but it can be found in the archive. >> >> As for argument (c), I think one's affiliation is irrelevant to his or >> her right to criticize something. The argument that someone with a Hindu >> name should not criticize the views of some Hindus or even Hinduism >> itself, goes against modern values, which since the Enlightenment has >> taught us to be rational, i.e., judge everything by reason and nothing >> else. There are different kinds of rationality, of course, and >> Enlightenment rationality has had some very negative consequences, but I >> am referring specifically to that aspect of it which taught Christians >> to criticize and challenge the church in Europe and Indian Hindus to >> criticize and challenge Hinduism in the "Indian/Bengal Renaissance". >> >> The first led to an arguably better Christianity (in most denominations) >> without excommunication, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. The >> second led to an arguably better Hinduism *as a whole* without sati >> (with exceptions that take place even now), virulent casteism (except >> for certain regions in which caste-based killings and massacres still >> take place now and then), ban on widow remarriage, etc., and a kind of >> liberalism in Indian society as a whole, reflected in the Constitution, >> that would have been unthinkable before it - and aspects of which, such >> as the ban on sati, the already enlightened British rulers initially >> opposed on political considerations. >> >> The question now is, are we ready to renounce those values? Personally, >> I consider myself perfectly within my rights to criticize not only my >> own religion but also my ethnic group, city, state, country, alma mater >> and so on, right down to my own parents. >> >> Best, >> >> Tapas >> >> >> Prabhakar Singh wrote: >> > I agree with you Lalit ! >> > One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is >> > more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like >> > this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus >> > for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her >> > name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated >> > for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have >> > some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and >> > the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide. >> > Regards, >> > Prabhakar >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: Lalit Ambardar >> > To: Samina Mishra ; reader-list at sarai.net >> > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" >> > >> > One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- >> > it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials >> > only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated >> > structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing >> > obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history. >> > >> > If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding >> > Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively >> > targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving >> > their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu >> > Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular >> > activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar >> > streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the >> > development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage >> > route at those uninhabitable heights. >> > Similarly no concern is shown for those credulous wailing >> > mothers,orphans,widows whose dear ones continue to fall prey to pan islamic >> > indoctrination & the mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession >> > of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from secular india. Terror commanders who >> > self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' >> > culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks, >> > courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one >> > such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of >> > Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him >> > international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri >> > Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & >> > hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest >> > & the police action that followed). >> > >> > To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved >> > only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the >> > ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it >> > is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self >> > pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to >> > the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to >> > understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired >> > indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in >> > denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru >> > born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to >> > avenge some perceived injustice back home. >> > >> > And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are >> > expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly. >> > There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever >> > there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie. >> > Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no >> > reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the >> > valentine even. >> > >> > Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will >> > be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building >> > process.Let us stop being parochial & selective. >> > Regards all >> > LA >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ________________________________ > MSN Technology brings you the latest on gadgets, gizmos and the new hits in > the gaming market. Try it now! From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat Oct 18 13:52:51 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 08:22:51 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva In-Reply-To: <84879.2144.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <84879.2144.qm@web8402.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Fatima, It is not just my claim, it is history that India has been home to persecuted communities from other regions of the world. Please let us not assume as you seem to be suggesting that it is 'Hindus'( 'wish you had resisted generalisation) who are persecuting fellow Indians in Kandhamal. Continued inter community as well as intra faith & intra community disharmony that keeps erupting in the country is a matter of concern & it would be better if instead of generalisation those local factors are understood & addressed. There has been a lot of exchange of views on Kandhamal on this forum. And please do not attribute any thing that i don't believe in. I have never mentioned any thing against any community in my posts. It is always against pan Islamism driven terrorism prevailing in Kashmir & also striking hard in rest of india now,that I speak about . I believe you wouldn't disagree with me over this menace that is also now taking a heavy toll on Innocent Pakistanis in our neighbourhood. It hurts me to see young innocent Muslims falling prey to extreme indoctrination & propaganda in Kashmir & in rest of India. And it is our collective responsibility to check the trend. Yes,violence of any kind can not be justified in a civilised society & we must condemn it. Regards all LA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:58:37 +0530> From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> To: reader-list at sarai.net; virtuallyme at gmail.com; lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > Dear Lalit> Ethnic cleansing of Hindu pandits in Kashmir certainly needs to be condemned - no body is justifying that. I never claimed that Kashmiri Muslims or Muslims in general or Arabs welcome everyone in their fold. It is you made the claim that "Hindus have always welcomed persecuted communities from the entire world". So why are they persecuting their fellow Indians now in Kandhamal?> > F> > > --- On Wed, 15/10/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote:> > > From: Lalit Ambardar > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > To: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in, reader-list at sarai.net, "Rohan DSouza" > > Date: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008, 10:55 PM> > Dear Sadia,> > Are you suggesting that the Hindus are persecuting? > > Hope you are'nt justifying ethnic cleansing of Hindu> > Pandits in Kashmir?> > Let us condemn violence both physical as well as mental> > & not be selective about it.> > Regards all> > LA> > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:13:35 +0530> From:> > sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in> Subject: Re: [Reader-list]> > Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> To: reader-list at sarai.net;> > virtuallyme at gmail.com; lalitambardar at hotmail.com> >> > Dear Lalit> If, according to you "Hindus have> > welcome all persecuted communities from world over",> > why are Hindu-persecuted communities taking refuge today in> > the forests and relief camps in Orissa, Gujarat, Karnataka,> > Maharashtra, Andhra?> > SF> > > --- On Tue,> > 14/10/08, Rohan DSouza > > wrote:> > > From: Rohan DSouza> > > > Subject:> > [Reader-list] Fwd:Understanding Hindutva> > To:> > reader-list at sarai.net> > Date: Tuesday, 14 October,> > 2008, 9:42 AM> > Dear All,> > > > Am> > forwarding an interesting article which explores the>> > > concept of Hindutva> > and tries to point out the> > differences between it and> > Hinduism. The author>> > > puts forward the theory that Hindutva is a> > political> > project, grounded in> > the> > principles and practices of Fascism, aimed at creating>> > > and maintaining> > an authoritarian state, with> > suppressive control over human> > beings.> >> > > > He also brings out the difference between the> > inclusive,> > open approach of> > Hinduism and> > the exclusive, suppressive ideas of Hindutva.> > >> > > Thought Ill forward this piece to this list as there> > have> > been many> > discussions around similar> > issues.> > > > Regards,> > Rohan> >> > ________________________________________________________________________>> > >> > ________________________________________________________________________>> > > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA - by Averthanus L.> >> > D'Souza.> > Posted by: "SJPRASHANT,> > Ahmedabad"> > sjprashant at gmail.com> > Date:> > Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:40 pm ((PDT))> > > >> > UNDERSTANDING HINDUTVA> > - Averthanus L.> > D'Souza.> > > > Ramesh Rajaram Vispute, a> > former Secretary of the Vishwa> > Hindu Parishad>> > > (VHP) once remarked: "The enemies of the Hindus> > are> > the Muslims, the> > Christians, the Hindu> > intellectuals and the media." > > It is very> > significant> > as well as intriguing that Vispute> > included the Hindu> > intellectuals and the> >> > media in his category of the "enemies" of> > Hindus.> > It does not take great> >> > intellectual acumen to interpret the meaning of this>> > > statement by a very> > prominent Hindutva> > promoter. It is quite obvious that > > Hindu> > intellectuals> > (nor any other reasonably educated> > person for that matter)> > will refuse to> >> > swallow the confused gibberish which is churned out by>> > > the Hindutva> > propagandists to arouse anger and> > hatred against Muslims> > and Christians,> > for> > which the VHP is so notorious. Any thinking person> >> > (including Hindu> > "intellectuals") will> > see through the falsity of> > the arguments which the> > VHP> > advances in its hate campaigns. It is precisely> > because> > the position of the> > Hindutva> > campaign is irrational and untenable that the> >> > propagandists prefer> > to recruit uneducated and> > unthinking followers who can> > easily be> > manipulated> > to believe anything that is fed to> > them. The Bajrang> > Dal, which is> > considered> > to be the front-rank of the storm-troopers of> > the> > VHP is a good> > example of uneducated youth, with> > more passion than reason,> > who are willing> >> > to blindly follow orders without thinking, and who are>> > > conditioned to> > believe that heroism consists> > in slaughtering helpless> > women and children,>> > > and burning innocent people alive. In this respect> > the> > Bajrang Dal is no> > different from the> > Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany or the> > youth brigades> > of the> > other fascist movements in Europe who were> > used to> > terrorize the population> > into> > submission. With their saffron head-bands and> >> > wielding 'trishuls',> > and screaming> > full-throated war-cries, these rampaging> > gangs can> > cause> > terror anywhere - which is precisely what> > they are trained> > to do. They are> >> > 'programmed' to follow orders, irrespective of> > the> > morality of the orders or> > the> > consequences which follow. B.S. Moonje, a prominent> >> > RSS leader,> > personally met the Italian fascist> > leader Benito Mussolini> > in Rome on 19> >> > March, 1931, visited some important military schools and>> > > educational> > institutions and became acquainted> > with the Balilla and the> > Avanguardisti> >> > organizations. Moonje wrote in his diary that the> >> > keystone of the fascist> > system is the> > 'indoctrination' of youths, rather> > than> > education. This is> > the foundation on which the> > Bajrang Dal is built.> > > > While cultivated> > ignorance of the youth is one facet which> > is> > promoted by> > the Hindutva ideologues, deliberate> > falsification of> > current facts as well> > as> > of History is another method of indoctrination used. >> > > Lal .Krishna.> > Advani closely studied the> > system of propaganda developed> > by Nazi Germany.>> > > He says: "In Nazi Germany, fascism in action>> > > developed two other> > distinctive> > characteristics: firstly, adoption of> > propaganda as> > a key> > instrument of State policy; and secondly, the> > systematic > > development of a> > demonology to> > keep the masses in a mood of perpetual> > tension and> > hysteria."> > (L.K.Advani- "A Prisoner's> > Scrap Book" ) > > Advani and his colleagues> > have> > tried hard to refine and improve upon the>> > > propaganda-cum-terror machinery> > which was> > developed by Nazi Germany, specially by> >> > Hitler's most trusted> > lieutenant Paul Joseph> > Goebbels, whose name has now become> > synonymous> > with> > high-voltage mendacious propaganda.> >> > > > One of the more prominent falsifications which the> > Hindutva> > protagonists are> > propagating is> > that Hindutva is an integral part of> > Hinduism. No> > sensible> > person, (including thinking Hindus)> > accepts this claim. > > In fact, the vast> >> > majority of Hindus are aghast at this identification of>> > > Hinduism with> > Hindutva. Hinduism is a highly> > respected religion of> > long standing. It> > is> > recognized (even by non-Hindus) as being, perhaps, one>> > > of the oldest> > religions in human history. It> > outlived the ancient> > religions of the> >> > Sumerians, the Etruscans, the Mesopotamians the Greeks> > and> > the Egyptians.> > Hinduism has always> > been associated with> > 'sanatana' which> > denotes> > timelessness or ancientness. Hinduism has> > never been> > associated with any> > particular> > political system; nor has it ever shown a> >> > preference for any> > particular cultural context. In> > the broadest sense of the> > word, Hinduism> >> > is "heterodox" and embraces a vast variety of>> > > rituals, beliefs, popular> > practices and> > dietary preferences. In the Bhagavad Gita,> > Lord> > Krishna> > tells Arjuna: "Through whatever path> > men come to me, I> > accept them through> > that> > very path."> > > > In sharp contrast to> > Hinduism as a religion, Hindutva is> > a clearly>> > > distinguishable "political" ideology which> > is> > straining to concoct a> >> > "national" identity based on the Hindu> > religion.> > Hindutva is a clearly> > fascist> > political movement, which has drawn much of its> >> > inspiration from> > European fascism and German> > Nazism. The most prominent> > protagonists of> >> > Hindutva, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1902 - 1966), Madhav>> > > Sadashiv> > Golwalkar (1906 - 1973) and Shyama> > Prasad Mukherjee (1901 -> > 1953) among> >> > others, have derived their ideologies from European> > fascism> > and modified it> > to suit Indian> > conditions. In fact, Pravin Togadia the> >> > "International> > General Secretary" of the> > VHP explicitly says that> > India is a Hindu> > Rashtra> > since millennia, and that Hindutva is not a> > religion but a> > synonym for Hindu> >> > nationalism. It should be quite clear, therefore, that>> > > the rejection of> > the claims of Hindutva cannot> > be construed as being> > anti-Hinduism. In> >> > fact, it is precisely because of the distortion of> >> > Hinduism by the Hindutva> > brigade that the Hindu> > intellectuals have rejected it. > > The Hindutva>> > > fanatics thrive on spreading this confusion between>> > > Hindutva and Hinduism.> > They have been able to> > increase their popularity because> > they repeat> > the> > (false) propaganda that the promotion of> > Hindutva is the> > promotion of> > Hinduism>> > > > > There are many distortions which the Hindutva> > fascists have> > wrought on> > Hinduism. Suffice> > it to indicate only a few blatant> > contradictions> > in> > their propaganda.> > > > One:> > Hindutva is supposedly a movement to create a Hindu> >> > "Rashtra". The> > secularism enshrined in> > the Indian Constitution is> > violently rejected by> > the> > Hindutva protagonists. At the same time they> > have made a> > conscious and> > vigorous effort> > to create an "international" > > Hindu> > community. The> > formation of the "World Hindu> > Council" and the> > creation of the post of> > an> > "International General Secretary" of> > the VHP is a> > clear contradiction of the> >> > claim that Hindutva is limited to the objective of> > creating> > a Hindu> > "nation." This> > contradiction is obvious to> > every sane person,> > except, of> > course, the rabid Hindutva> > ideologues.> > > > The claim made by Pravin> > Togadia that Hindutva as a> > "Rashtra" has> > existed> > since millennia is patently false. By all> > historical> > accounts, whether in> > ancient or> > mediaeval India, there were several> >> > "kingdoms" or "empires."> > Among> > the more well-known ancient empires were the Mauryan>> > > empire of> > Chandragupta Maurya ( approx. 326> > B.C. to 184 B.C.) and> > the Asokan empire> >> > (approx. 269 B.C. to 232 B.C.) There were also other>> > > lesser kingdoms like> > those of Kushana. In the> > south there were the numerous> > kingdoms of> >> > Adilshah, the Pandyan and Chola kingdoms, the Chalukyan>> > > dynasty and the> > Vijayanagaran kingdom (1336 to> > 1567 A.D.) and the better> > known Maratha> >> > Kingdom whose best known figure is Shivaji. In the> >> > course of history, all> > these kingdoms were in> > conflict with one or another with a> > view to> > expand> > their fiefdom or to retrieve lands which had> > been taken> > away by force.> > There was never> > a "nation" called India. Even> > after the> > gaining of> > political independence from Britain in> > 1947, it was left> > to Sardar> > Vallabhbhai> > Patel to consolidate the various major and> > minor> > kingdoms into a> > unified Nation. It is indisputable> > that it was under> > Pandit Jawaharlal> > Nehru> > and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel that the so-called> >> > "Princely States" were> > abolished and> > integrated into the State of India, which,> > for the> > first time> > in its entire history adopted a> > Constitution which was to> > govern the> >> > "Nation." The falsity of the VHP's claim>> > > that India was always a Hindu> >> > "rashtra" is proven by the very fact that it> > is> > still seeking to "create"> > the> > Hindu Rashtra of its dream.> > > > Two: the VHP> > claims that people who profess and practice> > other> > religions> > cannot be part of the Hindu Rashtra. This> > is in stark> > contradiction to the> > repeated> > statements made by the Hindutva leaders that> >> > Hindutva is a> > "secular" concept. In fact,> > they claim that they> > are secular precisely> >> > because they are Hindu. They accuse non-Hindus of being>> > > "pseudo-secular."> > They continue to> > trumpet this obvious contradiction that> > only Hindus> > are> > secular and the followers of all other> > religions are not> > secular. Yet,> > they also> > claim that Hindutva is a "composite"> >> > culture which embraces a> > variety of religions,> > cults, languages and ethnic cultures.> > The> > Hindutva> > ideologues have never been able to> > reconcile this glaring> > contradiction in> >> > their position. If Hindutva "embraces" other >> > > ethnic cultures, why is it> > that they are> > systematically forcing tribals (who are not,> > and> > never have> > been, Hindu) to "convert" to> > Hinduism? On the> > one hand they have> >> > sponsored so-called "Freedom of Religion"> >> > legislation in many States;> > because they are> > ostensibly opposed to conversions by> > force, fraud> > or> > inducements; yet on the other hand, they> > themselves are> > forcibly> >> > "converting" tribals, members of scheduled> > castes> > and followers of other> > religions.> > They offer the lame and unconvincing argument> > that> > they are only> > bringing back these people to the> > Hindu fold. They have> > called this> > movement> > a "ghar vapasi." The fact is that the> >> > tribals have never been> > Hindu. They have their own> > culture, religion and social> > practices.> > "Ghar> > vapasi" in their case simply does> > not make any sense.> > Former Indian Prime> >> > Minister, V.P. Singh has rightly pointed out that> >> > "ultimately what they are> > aiming at is> > authoritarian rule. Then not only will the> >> > minorities be> > targeted, but also those who do not> > agree with them. You> > will be declared an> >> > anti-national and treated thus."> > > > One> > of the more prominent characteristics of any> >> > dictatorial political> > movement is the systematic> > creation of confusion in the> > minds of the> >> > citizens so that they can never be sure of what the> > truth> > is. This is done> > in two ways. One is> > to spread rumours through the cadres> > of> > grassroots> > level workers, and another is to> > simultaneously issue> > "official"> > statements> > "clarifying" the official> > position on any> > particular issue. This is a> > very> > subtle psychological game which is being> > played by the top> > leadership of the> >> > Hindutva brigade. Citizens need to be aware of this and>> > > not fall into the> > trap which is deliberately> > created by the Hindutva> > ideologues. A glaringly>> > > example of this "double-speak" is the fact> > that> > the Bajrang Dal leaders in> > Karnataka> > have openly stated on TV channels that they are> >> > responsible for> > the attacks against Christian> > churches, institutions and> > personnel. At the>> > > same time, the BJP government in Karnataka and the> > VHP> > leadership insist> > that the Bajrang Dal> > had nothing to do with the attacks.> > > > There> > are too many contradictions in the propaganda arsenal>> > > of the Sangh> > Parivar to be treated at length> > in a brief essay, but this> > short analysis> >> > will, perhaps, help to pinpoint the contradictions:> >> > > > Hindu Nationalism v/s International Hindu> > Solidarity.> > > > The entire Hindutva movement> > is grounded on the principle> > that India is a>> > > Hindu nation, and that only Hindus can enjoy rights> > of> > citizenship in India.> > In this view,> > Muslims and Christians, in particular, but> > also> > Jews,> > Parsis, Buddhists and Jains, are viewed as> > non-Indian. > > Each time a violent> > attack is> > carried out against Muslims or Christians, the> >> > Bajrang Dal> > terrorists shout that the Muslims and> > Christians should> > either become Hindus> > or> > leave the country. Islam and Christianity are> >> > considered to be> > "impositions" by foreign> > Muslim conquerors or by> > Western Christian> >> > missionaries. The teachings of V.D. Savarkar and M.S.>> > > Golwalkar are very> > explicit about this.> > According to them, non-Hindus cannot> > enjoy rights> > of> > citizenship. The Muslims are constantly warned> > that their> > continued> > presence in India is> > entirely dependent on the> > "goodwill" of> > the Hindus and> > the Christians are> > "advised" to form an Indian> > Church under> > the complete> > control of the Indian Government,> > similar to the National> > Church in China.> >> > The so-called principle is constantly repeated that only>> > > those who sever> > their links with any> > international community and become> > entirely Hindu> > will> > be tolerated in (an Hindutva ruled) India.>> > > > > The stark contradiction in this position is> > the fact that> > Hindutva is Not> > confined to> > the geographical territory of India; it is> > sought> > to be made an> > international religion. Ever since> > the famous Parliament> > of Religions was> >> > addressed by Swami Vivekananda, in Chicago the> >> > "missionary" dimension of> > Hinduism was> > begun with the formation of the Vedanta> > Society in> > 1893 in New> > York. Today there are Hindu> > "missions" all> > over the world, in the> > U.S.A.,> > in Europe, in the Pacific Islands, in the> > West Indies, and> > in South Africa.> > The> > claim that Hindutva is a movement to establish a> >> > Hindu "Rashtra," is,> > therefore, patently> > false. The comparison with the> > expansionist> > movement> > of Nazi Germany is too striking to be> > missed. First it> > started with the> >> > unification of German speaking countries; then it was>> > > extended to include> > all people of Aryan ethnic> > stock. Since racial> > characteristics could not> > be> > "assimilated" the Nazis began a> > systematic> > extermination, first of the> >> > Jewish people and then of other "tainted" races.> > > > The Hindutva claim to> > form a Hindu> > Rashtra, is, on the face of it, a huge fraud> >> > perpetrated by the> > Hindutva ideologues. From a> > close examination of the> > literature available,>> > > it is clear that the Hindutva brigade wants to> > establish a> > theocratic Hindu> > State in> > India, not dissimilar to the Islamic State of> >> > neighbouring> > Pakistan.> > > > Tolerance> > v/s xenophobia.> > > > Another myth which has> > been created by the Hindutva> > protagonists is> > the> > claim that Hindutva is a tolerant ideology and> > is based on> > secular values.> > This is far> > from the truth. Hindutva is a blatantly> > intolerant> > movement> > which thrives on spreading hatred and fear> > among people. > > In fact it is so> > intolerant> > that it seeks to re-write history, which,> > according> > to it, has> > been written by> > "pseudo-secularists." Its> > distortion of> > history is so> > blatant that it has even created the> > myth that Asoka and> > Chandragupta> > Maurya> > were Hindu kings. This is a blatant falsification> >> > of History. All> > reliable sources tell us that Asoka> > ruled over a Buddhist> > kingdom, and that> >> > Chandragupta Maurya was strongly associated with the> > Jaina> > tradition. The> > Hindutva view of> > history is not based on scientific> > research, but on> > an> > imagination running wild. The Hindutva> >> > "historians" are worthy disciples> > of> > Goebbels who taught that if you repeat a lie over and>> > > over again, people> > will soon begin to accept> > it as the truth.> > > > If Hindutva is a> > tolerant political ideology which respects> > secular> > values,> > why is it that in all the States which are> > ruled by the BJP> > there is a> > systematic> > attack against Christians and Muslims? Why is> > it> > that tribals,> > who are not, and never have been,> > Hindu are being> > terrorized into converting> >> > to Hinduism?> > > > The Hindutva fanatics claim> > that they are against> > conversion by force,> > fraud> > or by material inducements. In fact they> > accuse the> > Christians of having> > converted> > Hindus by offering such material inducements. > > Yet,> > the duplicity> > of their claims is starkly evident in> > the fact that> > wherever they have> > attacked> > the Christians, independent Commissions of> > Enquiry> > have not been> > able to confirm a single case of> > conversion by the use of> > fraud, force or> >> > material inducement. The Laws in India are very clear>> > > about such> > conversions. If the Hindutva> > terrorists have any evidence> > of such> >> > conversions, they should have recourse to the Law. > >> > Instead, they resort to> > violence and terror against> > helpless, innocent and weak> > communities. They>> > > themselves use force to (re)convert people.> >> > > > The Hindutva movement is built on the foundations> > of> > falsehood, force and> > terror. In times> > of natural calamities, like the> > earthquake in> > Gujarat,> > they prevented anyone else from assisting> > the affected> > people. They sought> > exclusive> > rights to dispense aid, but they distributed this> >> > aid in a highly> > reprehensible manner. Muslim> > victims were carefully and> > deliberately> >> > excluded. Others were given aid only on condition that>> > > they swore to> > remain or to become Hindu. There> > is voluminous evidence> > of such> >> > discrimination even in times of dire affliction. And>> > > these very people> > claim that Hindutva is a> > humanitarian and generous> > movement.> > >> > > Citizens need to be aware of the duplicity of the> > Hindutva> > movement. They> > should examine all> > their claims critically; and most of> > all,> > citizens> > should not be beguiled into believing that> > the Hindutva> > movement has any> > redeeming> > features. It is an unmitigated evil.> > > > The> > battle lines are very clear. We Indians, of all> >> > faiths, varieties of> > cultures and languages, are> > facing a grave threat to the> > secular,> >> > democratic and pluri-cultural fabric of our society. We>> > > need to join> > forces to defeat the evil forces> > of fascism and> > authoritarianism. The> > fight> > is not between Hinduism and other religions. The > >> > fight is really> > between secularism and democracy,> > on the one hand, and> > fascism on the other.> >> > > > Averthanus L. D'Souza,> > D-13, La> > Marvel Colony,> > Dona Paula, Goa 403 004.> >> > Tel: 2453628> >> > _________________________________________> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the> > city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To> > subscribe: send an email to> >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the> > subject> > header.> > To unsubscribe:> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive:> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get> > yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now!> > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address> > _________________________________________________________________> > Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel.> > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings> > > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID get yourname at ymail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 13:59:14 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:59:14 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] what a way to display fascism.! Message-ID: <428575.44819.qm@web94908.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Truely fascist, Shuddha. The way you address other member of the list. Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From appu.es at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 14:20:52 2008 From: appu.es at gmail.com (Appu Esthose Suresh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:20:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <4b1e36590810180150r34d1ae8el1b29297e65473e25@mail.gmail.com> *Guys please grow up!* Most of us joined this list to engage in constructive discussion to fill in the vaccum left out by half baked and lopsided information and also to exchange ones views on various subjects. But, this is ridiculous! Every time I open the mail, I find murk thrown at each other. To be passionate about an issue is perfect, I appreciate that; but for god sake don't get personal. The exchanges in this list has stooped down to such an extend that you guys are venturing into individual targeting and maligning. This is not acceptable. Do consider that there are others in the list and frankly speaking its is annoying to find the kind of mails that I am referring to. All that left now is *maa, behan ghalli*, Be a bit more *civilized.* I would suggest henceforth: 1) Please stop referring to individual 2) Limit the sarcasm to an idea or an argument 3) You can have your strong voices, but please don't confront with harsh remarks like, "your ideas are nothing but garbage", I spit on your remarks...what is all these??? *To the monitors of this list, I strongly suggest to issue a code of conduct *. Regards Appu Esthose Suresh From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 14:03:53 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:03:53 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] intolerent citizen, tolerent society.? Message-ID: <7843.38622.qm@web94904.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Wah, what a fascist intolerence on display. Shuddha is not so pure as I thought. Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 14:37:02 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:37:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <6353c690810172330gb662b4cp6397a331521324c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <671465.47088.qm@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6353c690810172330gb662b4cp6397a331521324c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810180207s6adec9fek91334a835f3454b5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Crybabies, This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at anyone who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called Chanchal a 'moron'. 'Moron' 'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar is "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth that routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar and radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why you are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great deal about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in sexist, racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the conversation in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should not be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha called Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus do not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary knowledge of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: Chanchal on Muslim women: "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four is from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand possesses..." "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.." Chanchal on Hindu Women: "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will ever try to even look at her even in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" Chanchal on Indian History: "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name of Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and declared that it is their property.... Chanchal on International relations: "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." Chanchal on Art: "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it to the world)..." Chanchal on Sex: "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." Chanchal on Secularism: "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as long as Hindus are in majority." "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - all are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious we are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to immediately apologise. Warmly Aarti On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are in > trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on > part > of so called List Administrators.. > > So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. > > On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > > It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making > > personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy > > language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called > knowledge > > and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other > > members freely at their will by calling them "moron", "fool","senseless", > > "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System > > Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people > from > > this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to > unsubscribe. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Aarti Sethi > > To: Prabhakar Singh > > Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > > > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, > > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But > > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. > You > > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, > then I > > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out > on > > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, > then > > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say > > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than > > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, > > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. > > > > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. > > Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it > > would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh < > > prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > > Prabhakar > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Chanchal, you moron, > > > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > > religion. > > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > > There is nothing wrong with that. > > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > > depths of your ignorance. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > India is secular: > > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > > have that. > > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > > own motherland > > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "Javed" > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > > Engineer. > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > > > From: Javed > > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > > as linguistic. > > > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > > articulate and loud. > > > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > > just look on. > > > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > > license to function freely. > > > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > > never before. > > > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > > 'shameful'. > > > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > > Hitler. > > > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > > terrorists'. > > > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 15:05:45 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <566768.79994.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Aarti has written without even reading my mails.I dare her to point out even one instance where I have used any abusive language so far.In her description she has been using only mild abuses by her standards and now we have to be prepared to tolerate her real hard abuses.If the Administrator/Moderator does not wish to take action against such people, he/she should be kind enough to delist me and save me from such abuses.We are respectable people not used to this kind of abuse and insult.   ----- Original Message ---- From: Aarti Sethi To: Aditya Raj Kaul Cc: sarai list Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 2:37:02 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Dear Crybabies, This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at anyone who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called Chanchal a 'moron'. 'Moron'  'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar is "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth that routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar and radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why you are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great deal about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in sexist, racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the conversation in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should not be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha called Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus do not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary knowledge of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: Chanchal on Muslim women: "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four is from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand possesses..." "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.." Chanchal on Hindu Women: "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing problems alike western girls...  I am very clear on a simple point - if a girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will ever try to even look at her even in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" Chanchal on Indian History: "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name of Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and declared that it is their property.... Chanchal on International relations: "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." Chanchal on Art: "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it to the world)..." Chanchal on Sex: "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." Chanchal on Secularism: "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as long as Hindus are in majority." "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - all are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious we are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to immediately apologise. Warmly Aarti On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are in > trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on > part > of so called List Administrators.. > > So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. > > On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > > It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making > > personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy > > language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called > knowledge > > and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other > > members freely at their will by calling them "moron", "fool","senseless", > > "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System > > Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people > from > > this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to > unsubscribe. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Aarti Sethi > > To: Prabhakar Singh > > Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > > > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, > > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But > > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. > You > > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, > then I > > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out > on > > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, > then > > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say > > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than > > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, > > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. > > > > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. > > Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it > > would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh < > > prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > > Prabhakar > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Chanchal, you moron, > > > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > > religion. > > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > > There is nothing wrong with that. > > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > > depths of your ignorance. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > India is secular: > > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > > have that. > > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > > own motherland > > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "Javed" > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali > > > Engineer. > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > > > From: Javed > > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > > as linguistic. > > > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > > articulate and loud. > > > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > > > For Shiv Senaof course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > > just look on. > > > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > > license to function freely. > > > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > > never before. > > > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > > 'shameful'. > > > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > > Hitler. > > > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > > terrorists'. > > > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > >      Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > Tosubscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 15:16:03 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:16:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0810180207s6adec9fek91334a835f3454b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <671465.47088.qm@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6353c690810172330gb662b4cp6397a331521324c9@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0810180207s6adec9fek91334a835f3454b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810180246x60767490v1f8358305d7bb103@mail.gmail.com> I'm so scared Aarti ji :) Why shouldn't I be ? Its Aarti ji herself indeed :) Will this yet another unwanted e-mail follow a 36 page sum up of explanations by her dearest friend Shuddha as always; which end up in a trash bin at the end of the day? Our mistake is that we are peace loving Hindus and proud of being one. Your problem is, that you are Hindus just by chance (according to your language); and would rather love to APPEASE those few Muslims; so what even if they are bloody Islamic Terrorists. Think and then write Aarti. Don't keep blabbering around with your "Moron - Chalisa". Grow up Girl. Will you ? Our e-mails are important; they are a chemical reaction to your propaganda and come naturally and logically. Have guts to face the other opinion. The Right One. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear Crybabies, > > This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at anyone > who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the > moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called Chanchal > a 'moron'. 'Moron' 'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar is > "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth that > routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar and > radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why you > are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is > simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. > > The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you > wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are > well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in > invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great deal > about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you > routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in sexist, > racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the conversation > in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should not > be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when > confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of > prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha called > Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus do > not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary knowledge > of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal > laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. > > Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: > > Chanchal on Muslim women: > > "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four > is from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand > possesses..." > > "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having > more than one wife.." > > Chanchal on Hindu Women: > > "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about > (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded > their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing > problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a > girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will > ever try to even look at her even > in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" > > Chanchal on Indian History: > > "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name of > Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and > declared that it is their property.... > > Chanchal on International relations: > > "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India > (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." > > Chanchal on Art: > > "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much > more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it to > the world)..." > > Chanchal on Sex: > > "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." > > Chanchal on Secularism: > > "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as > long as Hindus are in majority." > "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - > all are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." > > Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious we > are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to > immediately apologise. > > Warmly > Aarti > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > >> Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are >> in >> trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on >> part >> of so called List Administrators.. >> >> So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. >> >> On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: >> > >> > It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making >> > personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy >> > language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called >> knowledge >> > and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other >> > members freely at their will by calling them "moron", >> "fool","senseless", >> > "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System >> > Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people >> from >> > this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to >> unsubscribe. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Aarti Sethi >> > To: Prabhakar Singh >> > Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; >> chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; >> > reader-list at sarai.net >> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM >> > >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > >> > >> > >> > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, >> > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! >> But >> > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. >> You >> > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, >> then I >> > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out >> on >> > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, >> then >> > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say >> > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than >> > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your >> usual, >> > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. >> > >> > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. >> > Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. >> it >> > would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh < >> > prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote: >> > >> > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' >> and >> > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. >> > Prabhakar >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com >> > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > >> > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > >> > Chanchal, you moron, >> > >> > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is >> > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. >> > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in >> > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any >> > religion. >> > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite >> > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu >> > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, >> > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. >> > There is nothing wrong with that. >> > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them >> > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the >> > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the >> > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me >> > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested >> > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of >> > how I see my own faith or doubts). >> > >> > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you >> > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, >> > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and >> > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud >> > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices >> > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the >> > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics >> > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. >> > >> > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless >> > depths of your ignorance. >> > >> > Shuddha >> > >> > >> > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: >> > >> > > India is secular: >> > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law >> > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not >> > > have that. >> > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy >> > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged >> > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their >> > > own motherland >> > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be >> > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal >> > > >> > > Not to say the last words.. >> > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or >> > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies >> > > because we chose to remain Hindu. >> > > >> > > >> > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> > > From: Vedavati Jogi >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > > To: "Javed" >> > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM >> > > >> > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali >> > > Engineer. >> > > >> > > vedavati >> > > >> > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: >> > > >> > > From: Javed >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > > To: "sarai list" >> > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM >> > > >> > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >> > > >> > > Asghar Ali Engineer >> > > >> > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) >> > > >> > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and >> > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the >> > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even >> > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during >> > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal >> > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well >> > > as linguistic. >> > > >> > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, >> > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more >> > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, >> > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were >> > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite >> > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. >> > > >> > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as >> > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often >> > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the >> > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand >> > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very >> > > articulate and loud. >> > > >> > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi >> > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so >> > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to >> > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was >> > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or >> > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. >> > > >> > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great >> > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad >> > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 >> > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until >> > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like >> > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. >> > > >> > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence >> > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement >> > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull >> > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place >> > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite >> > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. >> > > >> > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos >> > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal >> > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, >> > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu >> > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism >> > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. >> > > >> > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the >> > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the >> > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus >> > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging >> > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. >> > > >> > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva >> > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent >> > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the >> > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. >> > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining >> > > districts, is indeed hair raising. >> > > >> > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman >> > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 >> > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? >> > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that >> > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not >> > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? >> > > >> > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of >> > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted >> > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert >> > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to >> > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers >> > > just look on. >> > > >> > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was >> > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA >> > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We >> > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the >> > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has >> > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling >> > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. >> > > >> > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA >> > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today >> > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. >> > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is >> > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime >> > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact >> > > with America than the communal explosion back home. >> > > >> > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the >> > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home >> > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given >> > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over >> > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such >> > > license to function freely. >> > > >> > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all >> > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. >> > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on >> > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded >> > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as >> > > never before. >> > > >> > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers >> > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is >> > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if >> > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays >> > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy >> > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except >> > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. >> > > >> > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong >> > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle >> > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is >> > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first >> > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva >> > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation >> > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is >> > > 'shameful'. >> > > >> > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done >> > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting >> > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying >> > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. >> > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly >> > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for >> > > its complete inability to control communal violence. >> > > >> > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of >> > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the >> > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that >> > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle >> > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large >> > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in >> > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and >> > > Hitler. >> > > >> > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It >> > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but >> > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders >> > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after >> > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks >> > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. >> > > >> > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is >> > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is >> > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is >> > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media >> > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions >> > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded >> > > terrorists'. >> > > >> > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and >> > > play determined role things can get far more worse. >> > > _________________________________________ >> > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in >> > > the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > > List archive: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now >> > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address >> > > _________________________________________ >> > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in >> > > the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> > >> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >> > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >> > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 15:27:30 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:57:30 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] ROMANCE: Caste no bar Message-ID: Mike Ghouse's blog post has been circulating on the journo networks, possibly as an antidote to the muslim-loyalty question again circulating in the context of Obama, etc. This quote: "I said, you heard it Ma'm, my caste is Male, Man, Mard, Pursh, looking for Female, Woman, Aurat, Naari; the other caste. After a frustrating interrogation (because I had liked her daughter's profile) I asked her if she was interested in me or if it was her daughter." Reminds me of that hoary joke: "age no bar, caste no bar, sex bar bar" -naeem FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2008 Searching for Love, the internet way http://mikeghouseforamerica.blogspot.com/2008/09/searching-for-love-internet-way.html It is quite a journey, and I am learning it at every turn. Way back in 1995, I had placed my profile on an Asian match making site expressing who I was, and what would it take to make the partnership work. My personal conviction was for relationships to sustain, flourish, enjoyable and be durable, they must be anchored in justness, the feeling where neither one feels taken advantage of or taken for granted. It would be a moral crime to ask your partner to change for you without giving her (or him) the very same right. If you are not willing to change for her (or him) then you have no moral right to ask her to change for you. It creates an imbalance and consequently eats away the joy that both partners deserve. Change should be based on a lasting and a just equation. Life is about balance. I received quite a lot of responses on that profile, to my chagrin, it was the mothers of the women calling and writing to me, the greatest disappointment came when a mother of a professor of sociology in one of the Canadian Universities called me up, I was taken back, she wanted to know the properties I own and heck; she wanted to know my caste, which I responded with "male" she turns around and asks me what that was again? I said, you heard it Ma'm, my caste is Male, Man, Mard, Pursh, looking for Female, Woman, Aurat, Naari; the other caste. After a frustrating interrogation (because I had liked her daughter's profile) I asked her if she was interested in me or if it was her daughter. Of course, that kind of conversation does not go further. She hung up and I could hear the complaining her daughter had to endure. I went to an Urdu Mushaira (Poetry recitation in the language of Urdu) in Richardson, my favorite thing to do. I was impressed with the language and voice of the emcee Najma; she had a dignified stage presence. Years ago in late sixties and early seventies there was a "Baji" on BBC Radio's Urdu service, I listened to her every Wednesday evening at 8:45 PM in my home in Bangalore, and I had a crush on her voice and the way she spoke Urdu. Najma beat all that; she had the most beautiful radio voice I have ever heard. I asked her to co-anchor a TV program with me on channel 52 in Dallas, and then she joined me as a co-talk show host on Radio. We were just friends, never even held hands together. One day I told her the story of this Canadian Mom and she had her eyes wide open and asked me to fax her that profile. Later on that evening when I called her to find if she got the fax, she said that I wrote it about her without her knowledge. I reminded her that it was written much earlier and was on the net. That gave me the goose bumps and changed the world for us until she passed away in May this year. http://www.mikeghouse.net/Articles/Life-is-a-poem-of-love.asp Now, I am searching again, for a life time partner either her life time or mine which ever comes earlier. I listed my profile on a few mainstream sites and withdrew from some as there are some serious scams going on out there. I warn you to be aware of those. May be I was driven by that experience to write this column. Laugh it out loud, when I say I did not know Diana Lane until a month ago. I see the beautiful pictures of this lady on the match making site and I could not resist writing to her. Then a flood of emails start flowing between this Becky Brewer and me, and within three days, this dumb ass experienced-me falls in love with this woman head over heels. I never thought I could be infatuated like this ever again after that Shakila craze in my college days, where I took my poetry pen name as Shakil, when she barely knew I even existed. I never thought my heart would actually pound like that, I felt the sucker beating fast when I put my hand on the chest. I anxiously waited for Becky to come on line and chat with me. She was the most perfect woman I ever came to knew, I was actually praying and thanking God for the good innings one after the other. Fortunately, the flow of communication was so beautiful that I saved it to read again, I liked that feeling of romancing, desiring some one, wanting to be with some one; oops, it was 50 pages in all! I hope to share that small story some day; meanwhile I will collapse that into four paragraphs. Becky was an antique dealer from West Virginia shopping in Nigeria with her daughter. She did not have a phone number in that hotel and I believed her. Upon return to the states, she was going to visit me for a week in Dallas and I was going nuts, I was uncontainable as if Goddess of love Aphrodite, Apsara or a Hoor was going to land in my home. She even emailed me a copy of the Airline ticket. A week before departing Lagos, she was devastated, Angel, her daughter fell from stairs and had to be taken to the hospital. A few hours later Becky chats back, she is down, she cannot get the Doctors to operate on Angel's fractured skull, she did not know what to do, and she did not have the money either. I asked her to go see the US embassy as I would call them up to help her; I have some friends who could have done that. But she declined and said negative things about the Embassy, I did not agree, but I let that go. However, I was puzzled when she did not want to give me her passport number, where as she had asked me to give her my password to my profile on the listing agency, which I did, so she can make sure that they remove me from their site, she said, " you are mine". Man that kind of ownership knocks the guys down, even if they are fricking 56 years old. You may have guessed it by now what happened next. I went to the Western Union to wire her the money. There are a lot more details, chicanery and tricks, but I will keep it to four paragraphs. When I got back home, there was another lady from Sweden on line, she had really liked me a lot but understood that "I was someone else's". She had become a friend and chatted about different things, then she wanted advice, she told me the same story as mine, verbatim, her guy was from Belgium going to South Africa to shop for Diamonds, poor girl had wired him the money. I jumped out of my chair, dropped everything and called Western Union, luckily I had wired the money at 8 PM Dallas time, which was 4 AM in Lagos, Nigeria and the funds had not been delivered. They put a stop and I picked my money back the next morning. Becky was crying on the other side and, by then I had done enough research and put two and two together. I was feeling bad, what if this was real? Would I let a little girl suffer in the hospital? Am I that selfish? Then I recovered and realized that she had me. I chatted (all of it was on yahoo chat) with her and told her to go get the refund on ticket, she had paid one way fare of $5,600.00 on KLM, and she had originally lied to me that she had paid in cash. The roundtrip ticket from Lagos-Dallas-Lagos was $1,050.00 and she had paid $11,200.00 for the two. It was a real booking paper faked by one of her scheming friends at KLM. I got several of those emails, one was a Ghanaian girl going to back to Ghana for teaching, she said it was the noble thing to do; she was with her little daughter too. She sends me a picture of a pretty Vietnamese woman, when I asked her about a Vietanemese Ghanaian, she disappears. She did not even know the word Vietnam. Next day, I see the same picture with a different name. I am not scaring you, but just be careful. I have reported each one of those. I can smell those skunks from across the ocean now. No, I will take it back, it may even be next door operation. Perhaps this may not even be a girl; it may be a sweat shop operation where the girls or guys are paid $100 a month to net $20 to $25,000 a month by trapping people. I thought I was smart, I am glad I found out otherwise. There was a time, where friends set up the blind dates, but every one knew each other. It is still operative but becoming rare, as no one wants to be blamed if things went wrong. "Fear of Rejection" is the mother of all fears. We have several friends around us, but yet, we are afraid to ask. Before passing, Najma had reminded me that "I had not asked her out" because of that fear. She alluded to me that we have several friends and that I should move on with life after she was gone. That fear grips me again and it is real. I can stand up to any one including Bush and the McCain bullies, yet I am drowned in a silly idiotic fear. Each one of us is stuck up with something or the other; there was this Debbie girl, who had a perfect female body one can only imagine, I found myself making excuses not to fly with her in her two seater jet to go for a dinner in San Antonio. I am scared of heights, my knees freeze and hands clinch. Years later when I married Najma, she drove through the little hill in Redwoods and decided to turn back as she could not see me my dark skin turning white. By the way, those are the only two fears I have; of heights and of rejection, yet I am a dare devil peace activist and a public figure. When I placed myself on the net, the humbling experiencing started to become a routine. When the beholder in me sees the beauty in a woman, instinctively I want to know her, but when she does not even respond, I cringe like every one else. Then I look at my own situation, I do the same, when a woman wanted to connect with me, I find excuses. At least I wrote her back that I am considering another relationship. One lady demanded to know; what was it that I don't find in her. I was pleased with her questioning but got turned off when she was flashing the money she had and that our lives could be set for eternity. The philosophical question we need to think through is what is it that attracts one to you, and you to the other? Is there a rhyme or reason to it? Are we biased towards certain individuals? Why did I not want to respond to her? I found myself not finding an answer to these questions and am glad about it; it is a humbling and an enriching experience. And finally, I have written the following on the net, I believe it is a reflection of my heart and my mind, in the same order and I would welcome any comments and suggestions. My life is simple and I enjoy every bit of it. Each one of us is a unique being; we are our own models and have to live our lives responsibly. If we can develop an attitude to accept, respect and honor the god given uniqueness of each other, then conflicts fade and solutions emerge. I do not expect us to be a perfect match for each other, but if we want to have good life, we have to have the willingness to accept the otherness of the other; be secure enough to live our own dreams, and be a catalyst to each others growth and grow both individually and as partners. I have my own life mission "opening people's hearts and minds towards fellow beings", as you may have your own. We have to follow our dream, honor and cherish it. Individuality is important to me and I would fiercely guard each other's freedom to be who we want to be. We need to consciously create a beautiful future for us; we have to make the time to listen to each other's achievement and frustrations on a regular basis with lots of love, forgiveness, kindness and humility. When we make mistakes, it is good to know and share about it with humility to learn and avoid. We must consciously develop our tone to exclude blame and "I told you so" kind of verbiage. Either of us should fight the temptation of having an upper hand when the other makes the mistake, as it moves the relationship away from partnership to competition. We have to let it go and not be stuck in it and sacrifice the next beautiful moment of the day. At the end of each weekend, if we can cultivate a habit to clean our slates; praise the goodness and kiss for the weaker points in each other. I welcome the kisses, lol! Forgive ourselves and our partner and commit to start the next day without uploading it with tension, apprehension, anxiety and ill-will. Unconditional love and support is important to have an enjoyable life together. We have to be a relief valve to the other, and an allowance for brooding must be factored in our relationship. We have to give room and space to each other as needed. , our relationships with our families will remain intact and flourish, the more "sum of" we are, the better person we will be to each other. Love is not divisive, it is a multiplier. Every thing will be an open book; we have to accept each other as we are over a period of time, without a desire to change the other, the more we are ourselves, the greater the bonding would be. If Spontaneity exists along with thoughtfulness with moderation and modesty life would remain exciting. But, whatever we do in life, we must do it whole heartedly or simply not pursue it. Our peaceful moments would be sitting quietly in a swing set in the backyard or the rocker in moonlit nights and gazing stars and the sky with refreshing breeze kissing our faces. Listening to the music, together or each others music or our own, visiting friends and going for a drive, gardening are soothing parts of life. I believe in creating our own sacred places of romance to visit frequently; it is something we can look forward to as a romantic pilgrimage. My palette can accommodate most foods, but stable items would be Thai, Indian, Cajun, Mexican, Italian, steak, grilled fish or Chinese food. Walking in rain and smelling the fresh smell of earth buoys me up, there is nothing like it. I enjoy reading, writing and speaking on interfaith, pluralism, peace and Multiculturism. Honoring and respecting every which way one acknowledges and worships the creator is my value. He (she or it) belongs to all, and all of us belong to him. He treats us all with dignity, in God's eyes, we are all his creation and he loves us all. We do have a choice to earn additional grace by being good to his creation; life and matter. Although I sound religious, I am not, I am spiritual. Goodness centered rather than God focused. I believe the purpose of religion is to bring peace, balance and tranquility to an individual and what surrounds him or her; life and the environment. I would say, as the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, faith is in the heart of the believer. I enjoy being a composite of the cultures that make me a Muslim, an Indian and the American. Mike Ghouse From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 15:36:52 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:36:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it Message-ID: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> Dear All the subject matter of this mail is the subject itself. " I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it" those who dont know who wrote it to me, i must tell you, it is my own younger brother Mr. Aditya Raj Kaul let others point it out too, the wrongs i committed on the List that i deserve to hear this ' get lost' but this is one side of the coin, the other side it that this mail will remain in my archives as one of the most precious items. it is like a poem, the title will be THE OTHER The legend is that the great sufi saint poetess Lal Ded used to tell people to spit on her, ( perhaps enabling her to get rid of any hidden egos, if she had still ) So, in my own humble way, i am not angry on Aditya ji, but i feel mails like these might be a blessing in disguise, i have my own spiritual side of the being so love is -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 15:49:34 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:49:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. What can be worse ? I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & CLEAR. Happy ??? And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, inder salim wrote: > > Dear All > > the subject matter of this mail is the subject itself. > > > " I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it" > > those who dont know who wrote it to me, i must tell you, it is my own > younger brother Mr. Aditya Raj Kaul > > let others point it out too, the wrongs i committed on the List that > i deserve to hear this ' get lost' > > but this is one side of the coin, the other side it that this mail > will remain in my archives as one of the most precious items. > > it is like a poem, > the title will be THE OTHER > > The legend is that the great sufi saint poetess Lal Ded used to tell > people to spit on her, ( perhaps enabling her to get rid of any hidden > egos, if she had still ) > > So, in my own humble way, i am not angry on Aditya ji, but i feel > mails like these might be a blessing in disguise, i have my own > spiritual side of the being > > so love > is > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 15:52:31 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:22:31 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <566768.79994.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <566768.79994.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I do not remember seeing any abusive language in Prabhakar's posts. That he agrees ideologically with the really abusive ones should not be reason enough to lump him with them. Incidentally, Chanchal is not just abusive. She has even threatened physical violence against not only "us" but also "our children". Is this going to be tolerated? Please see below. 2008/10/17 chanchal malviya : > We will wait for the time.. If not you, your children will surely have to answer to your anti-national concept of Secularism and anti-Hindutva... Because you are betraying the very character of this motherland - Hinduism.... > 2008/10/18 Prabhakar Singh : > Aarti has written without even reading my mails.I dare her to point out even one instance where I have used any abusive language so far.In her description she has been using only mild abuses by her standards and now we have to be prepared to tolerate her real hard abuses.If the Administrator/Moderator does not wish to take action against such people, he/she should be kind enough to delist me and save me from such abuses.We are respectable people not used to this kind of abuse and insult. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Aarti Sethi > To: Aditya Raj Kaul > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 2:37:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > Dear Crybabies, > > This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at anyone > who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the > moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called Chanchal > a 'moron'. 'Moron' 'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar is > "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth that > routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar and > radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why you > are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is > simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. > > The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you > wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are > well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in > invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great deal > about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you > routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in sexist, > racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the conversation > in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should not > be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when > confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of > prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha called > Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus do > not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary knowledge > of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal > laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. > > Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: > > Chanchal on Muslim women: > > "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four is > from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand possesses..." > > "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having > more than one wife.." > > Chanchal on Hindu Women: > > "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about > (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded > their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing > problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a > girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will > ever try to even look at her even > in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" > > Chanchal on Indian History: > > "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name of > Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and > declared that it is their property.... > > Chanchal on International relations: > > "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all > HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." > > Chanchal on Art: > > "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much > more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it to > the world)..." > > Chanchal on Sex: > > "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." > > Chanchal on Secularism: > > "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as > long as Hindus are in majority." > "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - all > are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." > > Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious we > are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to > immediately apologise. > > Warmly > Aarti > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > >> Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are in >> trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on >> part >> of so called List Administrators.. >> >> So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. >> From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 16:05:01 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:05:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: References: <566768.79994.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990810180335g1d9981c7p81f7427987ccdf23@mail.gmail.com> Hi, As a follower of this list, would like to say that the discussion (?) is getting a bit ridiculous. I do not think the level of responses I have been seeing from many people who have been great contributors (whether I agree with the point of view or not) is worth reading now, and responses are now being done to irrelevant sub-sections of a mail completely aside fro the topic. Do not wish to name anyone, but I do hope all of us respect the list and the time that all of us spend reading mails. Rgds, Partha ................................. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > I do not remember seeing any abusive language in Prabhakar's posts. > That he agrees ideologically with the really abusive ones should not > be reason enough to lump him with them. Incidentally, Chanchal is not > just abusive. She has even threatened physical violence against not > only "us" but also "our children". Is this going to be tolerated? > Please see below. > > 2008/10/17 chanchal malviya : > > > We will wait for the time.. If not you, your children will surely have to > answer to your anti-national concept of Secularism and anti-Hindutva... > Because you are betraying the very character of this motherland - > Hinduism.... > > > > > 2008/10/18 Prabhakar Singh : > > Aarti has written without even reading my mails.I dare her to point out > even one instance where I have used any abusive language so far.In her > description she has been using only mild abuses by her standards and now we > have to be prepared to tolerate her real hard abuses.If the > Administrator/Moderator does not wish to take action against such people, > he/she should be kind enough to delist me and save me from such abuses.We > are respectable people not used to this kind of abuse and insult. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Aarti Sethi > > To: Aditya Raj Kaul > > Cc: sarai list > > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 2:37:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Dear Crybabies, > > > > This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at > anyone > > who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the > > moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called > Chanchal > > a 'moron'. 'Moron' 'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar > is > > "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth > that > > routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar > and > > radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why > you > > are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is > > simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. > > > > The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you > > wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are > > well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in > > invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great > deal > > about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you > > routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in > sexist, > > racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the > conversation > > in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should > not > > be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when > > confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of > > prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha > called > > Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus > do > > not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary > knowledge > > of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal > > laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. > > > > Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: > > > > Chanchal on Muslim women: > > > > "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four > is > > from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand > possesses..." > > > > "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having > > more than one wife.." > > > > Chanchal on Hindu Women: > > > > "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about > > (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have > discarded > > their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing > > problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a > > girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will > > ever try to even look at her even > > in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" > > > > Chanchal on Indian History: > > > > "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name > of > > Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and > > declared that it is their property.... > > > > Chanchal on International relations: > > > > "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India > (all > > HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." > > > > Chanchal on Art: > > > > "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much > > more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it > to > > the world)..." > > > > Chanchal on Sex: > > > > "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." > > > > Chanchal on Secularism: > > > > "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as > > long as Hindus are in majority." > > "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - > all > > are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." > > > > Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious > we > > are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to > > immediately apologise. > > > > Warmly > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > >> Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are > in > >> trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on > >> part > >> of so called List Administrators.. > >> > >> So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. > >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 16:11:14 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:41:14 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : > As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you > name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. > > Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. > What can be worse ? > > I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; > has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I > would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, > community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. > > > Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & > CLEAR. Happy ??? > > And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. > > I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 16:36:18 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:36:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810180406u64c834bcx6781056731f48e6b@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Tapas, this is a really a poem, about out times which are sad. i am just in tears, but how to write tears? DEar Aditya my dear Brother, your reflections simply tickled my bones, you must know how important you are to me, you give me something, spit is something, it is so rare. please keep on spitting, i will keep them as trophies. about kashmir, yes, i dont think you suffered more than me in kahsmir. i lost six of my close friends and relatives, and if i count 17 bullets on the body of Ghulam Mohammad, my friend's 70 year old father then the list becomes longer and longer. thousands and thousands of innocent people lost their life in kashmir, it is not a joke, if you see me mentally sick, i dont mind, but i am not happy. kashmir has suffered too much, and it is still in pain, whatever the reasons. so, let us be sensitive about it. why this hate for muslim sound? why, why my grand father's name was AFtab Ram, and by your spitting on 'Salim' thing you will begin to spit on my respected grand father too, because AFtab is a non-hindu sound. i have humbly requested you earlier, that if you have some political ambition, then writing on the List wont serve you any purpose. you can actively join BJP or whatever, ( even congress party needs hard core hindus like you ) but why you are on the list, this is a puzzle to me. you are young, and full of resource, so why dont you start some other reader list kind of thing, where friends like you can share, this right wing thinking more openly. just spare this list. i dont think secular minded people here on the list are opinion makers in india. Dont be afraid of us, leave this minority within the minority alone. you can start a party of your own, i wish you good luck, but if you depend on kashmiri pandits then you are a biggest looser. join some main stream poltics, there is enough scope of this spit versus spit thing,. people make millions out of this game of "SPIT", " GET LOST" kind of language. all you need some good kurta and topi, i am sincerely suggesting to you, yes, there is humour as well laughter and love On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. > Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) > bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning > desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and > bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey > with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket > rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I > am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" > > > > 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : >> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you >> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. >> >> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. >> What can be worse ? >> >> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; >> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I >> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, >> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. >> >> >> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & >> CLEAR. Happy ??? >> >> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. >> >> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. >> >> Love >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 16:41:44 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:41:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] mockery of death: Tehelka In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810170933k21502c3ep95d9895ab43f083e@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810170933k21502c3ep95d9895ab43f083e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810180411u2323f701ycb11ee64ef6c6c2@mail.gmail.com> t http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=cr251008mockery_ofdeath.asp Mockery Of Death As India continues its spree of untabulated death sentences, GOWHAR FAZILI questions the relevance of capital punishment today ON OCTOBER 10, 2008, five members of Amnesty International carried out a mock mass hanging near New Delhi's India Gate. They wore black hoods and nooses around their necks and hung themselves from a 12-foot life like hanging post made of foam. Their tshirts carried the message 'Mujhe Bacha Lo!' and 'Save Me'. Within 20 minutes, the police swung into action and stopped the performance, arresting four performers, including Inder Salim, a performance artist, and pushed them into a police van. Inder later said, "The disconnection between art and life makes it easier for the establishment to handle both by putting each in its box. But as soon as we bring it on to the street, it comes back to life imbued with new meaning. Also, the materials we use change the perception of art. In this case, simply because the hang post is made of foam and cloth and bends as one hangs, the act is transformed into something laughable even while it communicates the ugliness of the idea it represents; that is, to hang someone." The event was held on World Day Against Death Penalty, which commemorates the attempt to press home the demand for universal abolition of capital punishment by the World Coalition Against Death Penalty (WCADP), Anti Death Penalty Asia Network (ADPAN) and Amnesty International, along with a host of coalition partners. There is an increasing global shift away from inhuman practices like death penalty. Argentina, being the most recent example, was the latest to announce abolition of death penalty on September 12, 2008. Contrastingly, on December 18, 2007, India chose to vote against the motion along with Pakistan and China, in response to the UN General Assembly call for a Universal Moratorium on Death Penalty. This is shocking for a country which advocates non-violence worldwide. While the judiciary claims to issue Death Penalty only in the 'rarest of the rare' cases, death as a punishment in India is increasingly being offered as a short cut solution to most problems we face today. On May 2, 2008, Amnesty International India issued a report based on the study of 700 judgments on cases related to the death penalty. It conclusively established how the death penalty in India has lead to a miscarriage of justice on more than six counts. Among these are the fallibility of circumstantial evidence due to absence of forensic facilities, non-availability of adequate legal representation, absence of sufficient safe-guards especially in the case of ever increasing anti-terrorist legislation, delays in carrying out of sentences, etc. The legal fraternity has taken a serious note of the report. Even the Supreme Court has validated the findings of the report by quoting from it in its proceedings. The Government of India, in turn, has failed to study death penalty since 1979 and despite concerns about its misuse, finds it still relevant. Worse still, the government claims that it does not maintain statistics on death penalty cases and executions conducted in India since Independence. This absence of information is in clear violation of the international convention (resolution 1989/64 adopted on 24 May 1989), which requires the signatories to maintain annual statistics and transparency on the issue. Various National Human Rights Commission chairpersons have expressed the need to review capital punishment, but these have been mere statements falling on the deaf ears of the state. A significant number of judges and Presidents shift to opposition of death penalty after retirement. An increasing number of world bodies are calling for a universal moratorium on Death Penalty, including the European Union. But the government machinery, so far, is largely unmoved. For India, this could be an opportunity to seize leadership and help persuade the 14 residual Asian countries towards abolition, or else to trail behind in this regard, violating its founding spirit of Ahimsa and be counted among the rogue nations. Fazili is Coordinator, Anti Death Penalty Campaign, at Amnesty India >From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 42, Dated Oct 25, 2008 to see more media coverage http://www.amnesty.org.in/pages/media_coverage.aspx and images http://indersalim.livejournal.com warmly inder salim -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 16:57:30 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 04:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Victory come into your way Message-ID: <927677.8381.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear all,            Shami shamayateh papah shami shatru vinasanah        Arjunasyah dhanurdhari ramasyah klishta karmanah.   There is a tree called shami tree exists on this earth and you might be calling with different names. Our ancestors like RAM, ARJUN PRAYED IT on the day of dussehra and become victorious. If you offer pray to it you can be victorious in all respects.     Regards, Dhatri. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 17:26:37 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:26:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: <984620.41523.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <984620.41523.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810180456s8f7bceevfae6afef84921d0f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bhat sahib briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place democratic rule of laws'. now i quote you again, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be violent. if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism can not be defined as such. Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? warmly is On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Inder salim > With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these rotten > citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., > used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? > > Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them to distribute the butter equally for them.! > As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? > > Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! > > Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be violent. > Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list made one > think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 17:26:39 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:26:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810180406u64c834bcx6781056731f48e6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810180406u64c834bcx6781056731f48e6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810180456j2fd006oa89264db1f7307aa@mail.gmail.com> INDER SALIM - You write, " about kashmir, yes, i dont think you suffered more than me in kahsmir.i lost six of my close friends and relatives, and if i count 17 bullets on the body of Ghulam Mohammad, my friend's 70 year old father then the list becomes longer and longer." I've lost my childhood. I've lost my homeland. I've lost hundreds of my community members to bullets of mindless Islamic Fanatics. I've lost my house; which was indeed a treasure museum. I've lost Dal, I've lost Shankracharya, Martand and Hari-Parbat. I've lost Kheer Bhawani. I've lost the Chinar leaves, I've lost the 'Vital-Bhairava' of Motiyar, Rainwari. This homesickness and displacement has caused a deep hurt, a scar in me. You obviously won't understand the pain and rather make fun and mockery of it openly. How strange can you get? Your sick mentality is quite clearly reflected in your e-mail. I'm neither and rightist or a leftist or a centrist. I provide my point of view, I speak for my community - the victims of Islamic Terrorism; which you defend, and can go out of bounds for it. Its sad that a victim who speaks against Terrorism, and continuing propaganda and pan-Islamic Agenda is labelled as a blah blah blah.... I've no Political goals or ambitions. I'm an activist who has been campaigning for Justice, Human Rights and trying to shake the four pillars of the system to wake them from the deep slumber they get into usually. I'm a freelance writer and a photographer. Your allegations are pointless and reflective of your honest declaration that you suffer from a particular 'Brain-Fever'. Let me make it clear.... Where did at any point of time say 'I hate Muslims' ? It is a needless theory cropped up by none other than notorious Inder Salim. I rather said, I hate 'Muslim Terrorists' and have been speaking against the atrocities committed by them and the propaganda and the lobby created by them in New Delhi and elsewhere by merely buying people. You need to e sensitive towards victims of Islamic Terrorism and only then will you understand everything in a neutral manner. Why should I blame your grandfather for your own mistake ? Don't be an escapist now. I don't have problem by you using Inder Salim; but I'm baffled by your ignorance to appreciate your original name 'Inder Tickoo'; AND you go on justifying such abnormal behaviour. Now, Don't get in caste again here... Now, Let me humbly request you to unsubscribe yourself frpm this 'LIST'; if you don't feel like reading my mails; which should rather pinch you to ponder over your mistake and blunder. Life hasn't ended for you. You still can make up. Read History, Visit Jammu camps, interact with the children and the old.....visit the see the condition of temples of Hindu property in Kashmir. See how TERRORISTS roam free and portray themselves as leaders. Don't remain happy by continuing to live in this fake theory that you know. There is a lot beyond this. Your e-mail; reflects that you are more interested in Politics and contesting elections. Maybe you can start one; J&K and New Delhi elections are round the corner. Others in the List would help you, I bet. Also, you can contest from Maisuma in Kashmir. Yaisn Malik would provide you with funds and all necessary help. I'm happy with the awareness campaign we have initiated through 'Roots In Kashmir'. Your communal talking doesn't help anything, not me, not you. You can easily unsubscribe from this LIST and create something of your own; like your LIVE JOURNAL. Do it soon; you have a lot of time to utilise. Its another story; if you are paid to write here. You surely deserve that good dosage of "SPIT'. Only then, however remote I may consider it; would some realisation tickle you if you at all have a conscience. Make a Party of your own. Fight Elections, Earn Money from Hawala and Yasin Malik. And, then rule India by your sick mentality. Create more divisions, communal riots and make Terrorism National Policy. Kill Hindus till the last one is left. I suppose that would be our manifesto of sorts. I won't ask you to keep your mouth shut. I still do consider you have a God gifted "BRAIN". Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, inder salim wrote: > > Thanks Tapas, > > this is a really a poem, about out times which are sad. i am just in > tears, but how to write tears? > > DEar Aditya > > my dear Brother, > > your reflections simply tickled my bones, you must know how important > you are to me, you give me something, spit is something, it is so > rare. please keep on spitting, i will keep them as trophies. > > about kashmir, yes, i dont think you suffered more than me in kahsmir. > i lost six of my close friends and relatives, and if i count 17 > bullets on the body of Ghulam Mohammad, my friend's 70 year old father then > the list becomes longer and longer. > > thousands and thousands of innocent people lost their life in kashmir, > it is not a joke, if you see me mentally sick, i dont mind, but i am > not happy. kashmir has suffered too much, and it is still in pain, > whatever the reasons. so, let us be sensitive about it. why this hate > for muslim sound? why, why > > my grand > father's name was AFtab Ram, and by your spitting on 'Salim' thing you > will begin to spit on my respected grand father too, because AFtab is > a non-hindu sound. > > i have humbly requested you earlier, that if you have some political > ambition, then writing on the List wont serve you any purpose. you > can actively join BJP or whatever, ( even congress party needs hard > core hindus like you ) but why you are on the list, this is a puzzle > to me. > > you are young, and full of resource, so why dont you start some other > reader list kind of thing, where friends like you can share, this > right wing thinking more openly. just spare this list. i dont think > secular minded people here on the list are opinion makers in india. > Dont be afraid of > us, leave this minority within the minority alone. > > you can start a party of your own, i wish you good luck, but if you > depend on kashmiri pandits then you are a biggest looser. join some > main stream poltics, there is enough scope of this spit versus spit > thing,. people make millions out of this game of "SPIT", " GET LOST" > kind of language. all you need some good kurta and topi, > > i am sincerely suggesting to you, yes, there is humour as well > > laughter and love > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > > So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. > > Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) > > bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning > > desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and > > bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey > > with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket > > rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I > > am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" > > > > > > > > 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : > >> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever > you > >> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. > >> > >> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal > Ded. > >> What can be worse ? > >> > >> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own > community; > >> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and > dumb. I > >> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, > >> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you > thinking. > >> > >> > >> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & > >> CLEAR. Happy ??? > >> > >> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. > >> > >> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. > >> > >> Love > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 17:53:14 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. Message-ID: <388983.9753.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. Dear Bhat sahib briefly,  about me,  what you  are saying ,  i have never said. about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that  'Islamic rule in place democratic rule of laws'. now i quote you again, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be violent. if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you justify violence.  i dont support this thinking. that is normal.  i dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or temples, churches even )  or the other where one voluntarily joins the demolition  ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. Strange that you  believe India belongs to Hindus only. in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that his identity as  Hindu is ' unfortunate'  in comparision to his Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that  being Hindu is only his recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that in his own way, but  dont you see the point....... and in Indian, these ( kshmendra like )  identities are in millions, because Hinduism can not be defined as such. Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of ordinary  Indians. Why dont you see the game ? warmly is On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Inder salim >      With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these rotten > citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., > used the masjids giving calls, azaan,  to clean out hindus by violence..Let it be borne in mind that  in the continent, 457 kingdoms that were there at the time  of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? > >  Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how if they are divided the 2  percent community can take over the rule of the nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking the divided  society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them to distribute the butter equally for them.! > As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? > >  Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a temple in the land, disputed land was  destroyed for this structure to be built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! > >    Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be violent. >  Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list made one > think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 17:58:09 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] mockery of death: Tehelka Message-ID: <169081.26673.qm@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is high time that death penlaty is done away with. Not only it is unjustified it serves no purpose at all. ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 4:41:44 PM Subject: [Reader-list] mockery of death: Tehelka t http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=cr251008mockery_ofdeath.asp Mockery Of Death As India continues its spree of untabulated death sentences, GOWHAR FAZILI questions the relevance of capital punishment today ON OCTOBER 10, 2008, five members of Amnesty International carried out a mock mass hanging near New Delhi's India Gate. They wore black hoods and nooses around their necks and hung themselves from a 12-foot life like hanging post made of foam. Their tshirts carried the message 'Mujhe Bacha Lo!' and 'Save Me'. Within 20 minutes, the police swung into action and stopped the performance, arresting four performers, including Inder Salim, a performance artist, and pushed them into a police van. Inder later said, "The disconnection between art and life makes it easier for the establishment to handle both by putting each in its box. But as soon as we bring it on to the street, it comes back to life imbued with new meaning. Also, the materials we use change the perception of art. In this case, simply because the hang post is made of foam and cloth and bends as one hangs, the act is transformed into something laughable even while it communicates the ugliness of the idea it represents; that is, to hang someone." The event was held on World Day Against Death Penalty, which commemorates the attempt to press home the demand for universal abolition of capital punishment by the World Coalition Against Death Penalty (WCADP), Anti Death Penalty Asia Network (ADPAN) and Amnesty International, along with a host of coalition partners. There is an increasing global shift away from inhuman practices like death penalty. Argentina, being the most recent example, was the latest to announce abolition of death penalty on September 12, 2008. Contrastingly, on December 18, 2007, India chose to vote against the motion along with Pakistan and China, in response to the UN General Assembly call for a Universal Moratorium on Death Penalty. This is shocking for a country which advocates non-violence worldwide. While the judiciary claims to issue Death Penalty only in the 'rarest of the rare' cases, death as a punishment in India is increasingly being offered as a short cut solution to most problems we face today. On May 2, 2008, Amnesty International India issued a report based on the study of 700 judgments on cases related to the death penalty. It conclusively established how the death penalty in India has lead to a miscarriage of justice on more than six counts. Among these are the fallibility of circumstantial evidence due to absence of forensic facilities, non-availability of adequate legal representation, absence of sufficient safe-guards especially in the case of ever increasing anti-terrorist legislation, delays in carrying out of sentences, etc. The legal fraternity has taken a serious note of the report. Even the Supreme Court has validated the findings of the report by quoting from it in its proceedings. The Government of India, in turn, has failed to study death penalty since 1979 and despite concerns about its misuse, finds it still relevant. Worse still, the government claims that it does not maintain statistics on death penalty cases and executions conducted in India since Independence. This absence of information is in clear violation of the international convention (resolution 1989/64 adopted on 24 May 1989), which requires the signatories to maintain annual statistics and transparency on the issue. Various National Human Rights Commission chairpersons have expressed the need to review capital punishment, but these have been mere statements falling on the deaf ears of the state. A significant number of judges and Presidents shift to opposition of death penalty after retirement. An increasing number of world bodies are calling for a universal moratorium on Death Penalty, including the European Union. But the government machinery, so far, is largely unmoved. For India, this could be an opportunity to seize leadership and help persuade the 14 residual Asian countries towards abolition, or else to trail behind in this regard, violating its founding spirit of Ahimsa and be counted among the rogue nations. Fazili is Coordinator, Anti Death Penalty Campaign, at Amnesty India From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 42, Dated Oct 25, 2008 to see more media coverage http://www.amnesty.org.in/pages/media_coverage.aspx and images http://indersalim.livejournal.com warmly inder salim -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 18:04:43 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:04:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: <388983.9753.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <388983.9753.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090810180534g3357f818v892bd05f518ca825@mail.gmail.com> Prabhakar ji Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory manner as well. The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king or mayor. Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century focus on lampooning the social and political world were well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News, the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe Lieberman. In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also be referred to as talking heads. Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others, including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or observations[3]. Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as well. The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: * Australia o Andrew Bolt o Phil Cleary o Germaine Greer o John Laws o Glenn Milne * Brazil o Olavo de Carvalho o Reinaldo Azevedo * Canada o Michael Coren * Chile o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez o Patricio Navia o Miljenko R. Marinkovic * Hong Kong, China o Ivan Choy * India o Cho Ramaswamy * Spain o Federico Jiménez Losantos o Iñaki Gabilondo o Luis del Olmo * United Kingdom o David Aaronovitch o Gary Lineker o Matthew Le Tissier o Tim Henman o Andy Gray o John Motson o Martin Tyler o Vanessa Feltz o Germaine Greer o Christopher Hitchens o Peter Hitchens o John McCririck o George Monbiot o Melanie Phillips * United States o Glenn Beck o Neal Boortz o Tucker Carlson o Stephen Colbert o Alan Colmes o Ann Coulter o Lou Dobbs o Roger Ebert o Al Franken o Nancy Grace o Sean Hannity o Christopher Hitchens o Ezra Klein o Rush Limbaugh o Rachel Maddow o Bill Maher o Michelle Malkin o Chris Matthews o Keith Olbermann o Bill O'Reilly o Joe Scarborough o Michael Savage o Mark Steyn o Jon Stewart Sports Pundits o Skip Bayless o Mike Francesa o Peter Gammons o Mike Golic o Mike Greenberg o Jay Mariotti o Woody Paige o Jim Rome o Chris Russo o Stephen A. Smith o Dick Vitale o Michael Wilbon o Tony Kornheiser o Lou Holtz o Keyman Ma In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for the British. One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team. In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their observations without being found out. They were trained to make exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers: Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite that during their travels. The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with remarkable precision. Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions, and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law. The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their official use. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. > > Dear Bhat sahib > > briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. > about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place > democratic rule of laws'. > > now i quote you again, > > stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, > prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be > violent. > > if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you > justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i > dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. > > about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one > which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or > temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the > demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) > > this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other > religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. > Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. > > in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that > his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his > Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his > recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that > in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, > these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism > can not be defined as such. > > Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of > ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? > > warmly > is > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat > wrote: >> Inder salim >> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these rotten >> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., >> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? >> >> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them to distribute the butter equally for them.! >> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? >> >> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! >> >> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be violent. >> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list made one >> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? >> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in Sat Oct 18 18:11:08 2008 From: sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in (Fatima) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:11:08 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] mockery of death: Tehelka In-Reply-To: <169081.26673.qm@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <75409.77828.qm@web8408.mail.in.yahoo.com> No, no, no... we can't do away with death penalty. How can we kill the Muslims terrorists then in encounters. After all, encounters are death sentences (without trial and judgment). These are the only way to kill people at will. We can't do away with death penalty. No way. If you do want to remove it, then invent a gun that freezes the entire action accused in an encounter, so that we'll know exactly happened. --- On Sat, 18/10/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > From: Prabhakar Singh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] mockery of death: Tehelka > To: "inder salim" , reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Saturday, 18 October, 2008, 5:58 PM > It is high time that death penlaty is done away with. Not > only it is unjustified it serves no purpose at all. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 4:41:44 PM > Subject: [Reader-list] mockery of death: Tehelka > > t > > > http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=cr251008mockery_ofdeath.asp > > Mockery Of Death > > As India continues its spree of untabulated death > sentences, GOWHAR > FAZILI questions the relevance of capital punishment today > > ON OCTOBER 10, 2008, five members of Amnesty International > carried out > a mock mass hanging near New Delhi's India Gate. They > wore black hoods > and nooses around their necks and hung themselves from a > 12-foot life > like hanging post made of foam. Their tshirts carried the > message > 'Mujhe Bacha Lo!' and 'Save Me'. Within 20 > minutes, the police swung > into action and stopped the performance, arresting four > performers, > including Inder Salim, a performance artist, and pushed > them into a > police van. Inder later said, "The disconnection > between art and life > makes it easier for the establishment to handle both by > putting each > in its box. But as soon as we bring it on to the street, it > comes back > to life imbued with new meaning. Also, the materials we use > change the > perception of art. In this case, simply because the hang > post is made > of foam and cloth and bends as one hangs, the act is > transformed into > something laughable even while it communicates the ugliness > of the > idea it represents; that is, to hang someone." > > The event was held on World Day Against Death Penalty, > which > commemorates the attempt to press home the demand for > universal > abolition of capital punishment by the World Coalition > Against Death > Penalty (WCADP), Anti Death Penalty Asia Network (ADPAN) > and Amnesty > International, along with a host of coalition partners. > There is an > increasing global shift away from inhuman practices like > death > penalty. Argentina, being the most recent example, was the > latest to > announce abolition of death penalty on September 12, 2008. > Contrastingly, on December 18, 2007, India chose to vote > against the > motion along with Pakistan and China, in response to the UN > General > Assembly call for a Universal Moratorium on Death Penalty. > This is > shocking for a country which advocates non-violence > worldwide. While > the judiciary claims to issue Death Penalty only in the > 'rarest of the > rare' cases, death as a punishment in India is > increasingly being > offered as a short cut solution to most problems we face > today. > > On May 2, 2008, Amnesty International India issued a report > based on > the study of 700 judgments on cases related to the death > penalty. It > conclusively established how the death penalty in India has > lead to a > miscarriage of justice on more than six counts. Among these > are the > fallibility of circumstantial evidence due to absence of > forensic > facilities, non-availability of adequate legal > representation, absence > of sufficient safe-guards especially in the case of ever > increasing > anti-terrorist legislation, delays in carrying out of > sentences, etc. > The legal fraternity has taken a serious note of the > report. Even the > Supreme Court has validated the findings of the report by > quoting from > it in its proceedings. The Government of India, in turn, > has failed to > study death penalty since 1979 and despite concerns about > its misuse, > finds it still relevant. Worse still, the government claims > that it > does not maintain statistics on death penalty cases and > executions > conducted in India since Independence. This absence of > information is > in clear violation of the international convention > (resolution 1989/64 > adopted on 24 May 1989), which requires the signatories to > maintain > annual statistics and transparency on the issue. > > Various National Human Rights Commission chairpersons have > expressed > the need to review capital punishment, but these have been > mere > statements falling on the deaf ears of the state. A > significant number > of judges and Presidents shift to opposition of death > penalty after > retirement. An increasing number of world bodies are > calling for a > universal moratorium on Death Penalty, including the > European Union. > But the government machinery, so far, is largely unmoved. > > For India, this could be an opportunity to seize leadership > and help > persuade the 14 residual Asian countries towards abolition, > or else to > trail behind in this regard, violating its founding spirit > of Ahimsa > and be counted among the rogue nations. > > Fazili is Coordinator, Anti Death Penalty Campaign, at > Amnesty India > From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 42, Dated Oct 25, 2008 > > > to see more media coverage > http://www.amnesty.org.in/pages/media_coverage.aspx > > and images http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > warmly > inder salim > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! > Messenger. Download Now! > http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 18:26:44 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:26:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: <6353c690810180456j2fd006oa89264db1f7307aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810180406u64c834bcx6781056731f48e6b@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180456j2fd006oa89264db1f7307aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0810180556i30b479ddh90bed38d2f4fb491@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya, Thank you for this heart-rending list of all you have lost. I certainly don't make light of it, nor does anyone else on this list. I have a feeling that actually you are not the only one here on whom weighs this great historically ordained burden of pain. Many many people here have lost many things. They are just not so vocal about it. Also not everyone uses pain as a justification for hate, which you seem to have made a career out of. So before you parade your sentiments yet again please take a small moment to introspect about the tremendous violence you have done to other people on this list: how sensitive you have been to their pain, how much understanding you have shown or not shown, how you have treated even your "own" people like Inder. It will only help. Sometimes it is not a bad thing to realise that you are not the only person in the world whose pain matters. It is this recognition that allows any child to grow up and move from the early-oral phase: the recognition of the other. Else the child will be caught in a total narcissism where everything is judged solely by the standards of her own pain and pleaure. Many many people on this list have lead lives of great adversity and hardship Aditya. Just because, unlike you, they are not accustomed to forcing it upon everyone else and parading their victimhood for all to see, does not mean that you have the prerogative of priveldging your pain over theirs. Warmly Aarti On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > INDER SALIM - You write, " about kashmir, yes, i dont think you suffered > more than me in kahsmir.i lost six of my close friends and relatives, and > if > i count 17 > bullets on the body of Ghulam Mohammad, my friend's 70 year old father > then > the list becomes longer and longer." > > I've lost my childhood. I've lost my homeland. I've lost hundreds of my > community members to bullets of mindless Islamic Fanatics. I've lost my > house; which was indeed a treasure museum. I've lost Dal, I've lost > Shankracharya, Martand and Hari-Parbat. I've lost Kheer Bhawani. I've lost > the Chinar leaves, I've lost the 'Vital-Bhairava' of Motiyar, Rainwari. > This > homesickness and displacement has caused a deep hurt, a scar in me. You > obviously won't understand the pain and rather make fun and mockery of it > openly. How strange can you get? > > Your sick mentality is quite clearly reflected in your e-mail. I'm neither > and rightist or a leftist or a centrist. I provide my point of view, I > speak > for my community - the victims of Islamic Terrorism; which you defend, and > can go out of bounds for it. Its sad that a victim who speaks against > Terrorism, and continuing propaganda and pan-Islamic Agenda is labelled as > a > blah blah blah.... > > I've no Political goals or ambitions. I'm an activist who has been > campaigning for Justice, Human Rights and trying to shake the four pillars > of the system to wake them from the deep slumber they get into usually. I'm > a freelance writer and a photographer. Your allegations are pointless and > reflective of your honest declaration that you suffer from a particular > 'Brain-Fever'. > > Let me make it clear.... Where did at any point of time say 'I hate > Muslims' > ? It is a needless theory cropped up by none other than notorious Inder > Salim. I rather said, I hate 'Muslim Terrorists' and have been speaking > against the atrocities committed by them and the propaganda and the lobby > created by them in New Delhi and elsewhere by merely buying people. > > You need to e sensitive towards victims of Islamic Terrorism and only then > will you understand everything in a neutral manner. Why should I blame your > grandfather for your own mistake ? Don't be an escapist now. I don't have > problem by you using Inder Salim; but I'm baffled by your ignorance to > appreciate your original name 'Inder Tickoo'; AND you go on justifying such > abnormal behaviour. Now, Don't get in caste again here... > > Now, Let me humbly request you to unsubscribe yourself frpm this 'LIST'; if > you don't feel like reading my mails; which should rather pinch you to > ponder over your mistake and blunder. > > Life hasn't ended for you. You still can make up. Read History, Visit Jammu > camps, interact with the children and the old.....visit the see the > condition of temples of Hindu property in Kashmir. See how TERRORISTS roam > free and portray themselves as leaders. Don't remain happy by continuing to > live in this fake theory that you know. There is a lot beyond this. > > Your e-mail; reflects that you are more interested in Politics and > contesting elections. Maybe you can start one; J&K and New Delhi elections > are round the corner. Others in the List would help you, I bet. Also, you > can contest from Maisuma in Kashmir. Yaisn Malik would provide you with > funds and all necessary help. > > I'm happy with the awareness campaign we have initiated through 'Roots In > Kashmir'. Your communal talking doesn't help anything, not me, not you. You > can easily unsubscribe from this LIST and create something of your own; > like > your LIVE JOURNAL. Do it soon; you have a lot of time to utilise. Its > another story; if you are paid to write here. > > You surely deserve that good dosage of "SPIT'. Only then, however remote I > may consider it; would some realisation tickle you if you at all have a > conscience. > > Make a Party of your own. Fight Elections, Earn Money from Hawala and Yasin > Malik. And, then rule India by your sick mentality. Create more divisions, > communal riots and make Terrorism National Policy. Kill Hindus till the > last > one is left. I suppose that would be our manifesto of sorts. > > I won't ask you to keep your mouth shut. I still do consider you have a God > gifted "BRAIN". > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On 10/18/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > Thanks Tapas, > > > > this is a really a poem, about out times which are sad. i am just in > > tears, but how to write tears? > > > > DEar Aditya > > > > my dear Brother, > > > > your reflections simply tickled my bones, you must know how important > > you are to me, you give me something, spit is something, it is so > > rare. please keep on spitting, i will keep them as trophies. > > > > about kashmir, yes, i dont think you suffered more than me in kahsmir. > > i lost six of my close friends and relatives, and if i count 17 > > bullets on the body of Ghulam Mohammad, my friend's 70 year old father > then > > the list becomes longer and longer. > > > > thousands and thousands of innocent people lost their life in kashmir, > > it is not a joke, if you see me mentally sick, i dont mind, but i am > > not happy. kashmir has suffered too much, and it is still in pain, > > whatever the reasons. so, let us be sensitive about it. why this hate > > for muslim sound? why, why > > > > my grand > > father's name was AFtab Ram, and by your spitting on 'Salim' thing you > > will begin to spit on my respected grand father too, because AFtab is > > a non-hindu sound. > > > > i have humbly requested you earlier, that if you have some political > > ambition, then writing on the List wont serve you any purpose. you > > can actively join BJP or whatever, ( even congress party needs hard > > core hindus like you ) but why you are on the list, this is a puzzle > > to me. > > > > you are young, and full of resource, so why dont you start some other > > reader list kind of thing, where friends like you can share, this > > right wing thinking more openly. just spare this list. i dont think > > secular minded people here on the list are opinion makers in india. > > Dont be afraid of > > us, leave this minority within the minority alone. > > > > you can start a party of your own, i wish you good luck, but if you > > depend on kashmiri pandits then you are a biggest looser. join some > > main stream poltics, there is enough scope of this spit versus spit > > thing,. people make millions out of this game of "SPIT", " GET LOST" > > kind of language. all you need some good kurta and topi, > > > > i am sincerely suggesting to you, yes, there is humour as well > > > > laughter and love > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. > > > Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) > > > bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning > > > desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and > > > bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey > > > with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket > > > rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I > > > am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" > > > > > > > > > > > > 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : > > >> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or > whatever > > you > > >> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. > > >> > > >> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal > > Ded. > > >> What can be worse ? > > >> > > >> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own > > community; > > >> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and > > dumb. I > > >> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, > sur-name, > > >> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you > > thinking. > > >> > > >> > > >> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD > & > > >> CLEAR. Happy ??? > > >> > > >> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. > > >> > > >> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. > > >> > > >> Love > > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 18:36:28 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:36:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Many Christians forced to embrace Hinduism Message-ID: <73eb60090810180606x6311ab6bg5367b03921dda4b6@mail.gmail.com> "Many Christians forced to embrace Hinduism" Staff Reporter NEW DELHI: Janhastakshep has expressed concern over "organised violence perpetrated by Hindutva forces on Christians in Orissa and Karnataka and on minorities in other States". At a meeting on "Attacks on minorities: Challenges before the democratic movement" here earlier this week, Prof. Manoranjan Mohanty, who went as a member of a fact-finding team to Orissa, said large-scale attacks were carried out against Christians: "Many Christians were forced to embrace Hinduism to escape physical elimination. What was shocking was the indifferent attitude of the police and State officials. They looked the other way when violent attacks were carried out." Calling upon civil liberty and human rights groups to jointly condemn such attacks on minorities, Prof. Mohanty said: "The attacks on minorities are not a minority issue but an issue of minority rights that are essential to democracy." Human rights lawyer Prashant Bhushan said the police helped by the media had served to project Muslims as terrorists. "Indiscriminate arrests of educated Muslims are being carried out," said Mr. Bhushan, adding that even the Supreme Court and the National Human Rights Commission's guidelines on arrest were not followed. Resolution The meeting adopted a resolution demanding that those responsible for attacks on minorities and their institutions be dealt with in accordance with the rule of law. It also demanded a time-bound judicial inquiry by a sitting judge of the Supreme Court into the Jamia Nagar encounter. The resolution also sought an end to "indiscriminate harassment" and arrest of educated Muslim youths and their families. http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/18/stories/2008101856330400.htm From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 18:41:00 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. Message-ID: <955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Kirdar Ji, Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" : one of the four castes of Hindus. Regards, Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: kirdar singh To: Prabhakar Singh Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. Prabhakar ji Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory manner as well. The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king or mayor. Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century focus on lampooning the social and political world were well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News, the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe Lieberman. In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also be referred to as talking heads. Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others, including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or observations[3]. Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as well. The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits:     * Australia           o Andrew Bolt           o Phil Cleary           o Germaine Greer           o John Laws           o Glenn Milne     * Brazil           o Olavo de Carvalho           o Reinaldo Azevedo     * Canada           o Michael Coren     * Chile           o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce           o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez           o Patricio Navia           o Miljenko R. Marinkovic     * Hong Kong, China           o Ivan Choy     * India           o Cho Ramaswamy     * Spain           o Federico Jiménez Losantos           o Iñaki Gabilondo           o Luis del Olmo     * United Kingdom           o David Aaronovitch           o Gary Lineker           o Matthew Le Tissier           o Tim Henman           o Andy Gray           o John Motson           o Martin Tyler           o Vanessa Feltz           o Germaine Greer           o Christopher Hitchens           o Peter Hitchens           o John McCririck           o George Monbiot           o Melanie Phillips     * United States           o Glenn Beck           o Neal Boortz           o Tucker Carlson           o Stephen Colbert           o Alan Colmes           o Ann Coulter           o Lou Dobbs           o Roger Ebert           o Al Franken           o Nancy Grace           o Sean Hannity           o Christopher Hitchens           o Ezra Klein           o Rush Limbaugh           o Rachel Maddow           o Bill Maher           o Michelle Malkin           o Chris Matthews           o Keith Olbermann           o Bill O'Reilly           o Joe Scarborough           o Michael Savage           o Mark Steyn           o Jon Stewart Sports Pundits           o Skip Bayless           o Mike Francesa           o Peter Gammons           o Mike Golic           o Mike Greenberg           o Jay Mariotti           o Woody Paige           o Jim Rome           o Chris Russo           o Stephen A. Smith           o Dick Vitale           o Michael Wilbon           o Tony Kornheiser           o Lou Holtz           o Keyman Ma In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for the British. One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team. In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their observations without being found out. They were trained to make exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers: Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite that during their travels. The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with remarkable precision. Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions, and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law. The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their official use. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. > > Dear Bhat sahib > > briefly,  about me,  what you  are saying ,  i have never said. > about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that  'Islamic rule in place > democratic rule of laws'. > > now i quote you again, > > stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, > prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be > violent. > > if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you > justify violence.  i dont support this thinking. that is normal.  i > dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. > > about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one > which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or > temples, churches even )  or the other where one voluntarily joins the > demolition  ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) > > this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other > religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. > Strange that you  believe India belongs to Hindus only. > > in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that > his identity as  Hindu is ' unfortunate'  in comparision to his > Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that  being Hindu is only his > recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that > in his own way, but  dont you see the point....... and in Indian, > these ( kshmendra like )  identities are in millions, because Hinduism > can not be defined as such. > > Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of > ordinary  Indians. Why dont you see the game ? > > warmly > is > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat > wrote: >> Inder salim >>      With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these rotten >> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., >> used the masjids giving calls, azaan,  to clean out hindus by violence..Let it be borne in mind that  in the continent, 457 kingdoms that were there at the time  of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? >> >>  Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how if they are divided the 2  percent community can take over the rule of the nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking the divided  society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them to distribute the butter equally for them.! >> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? >> >>  Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a temple in the land, disputed land was  destroyed for this structure to be built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! >> >>    Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be violent. >>  Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list made one >> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? >> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 19:31:51 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:31:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: <955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090810180701h203d180ata2d0e3fdde92d39d@mail.gmail.com> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he go to? Can he apply for Brahminship? On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > Dear Kirdar Ji, > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" : one of the four castes of Hindus. > Regards, > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: kirdar singh > To: Prabhakar Singh > Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. > > Prabhakar ji > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: > > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" > > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory > manner as well. > > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king > or mayor. > > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News, > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe > Lieberman. > > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also > be referred to as talking heads. > > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others, > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] > > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or > observations[3]. > > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as > well. > > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. > > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: > > * Australia > o Andrew Bolt > o Phil Cleary > o Germaine Greer > o John Laws > o Glenn Milne > > * Brazil > o Olavo de Carvalho > o Reinaldo Azevedo > > * Canada > o Michael Coren > > * Chile > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez > o Patricio Navia > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic > > * Hong Kong, China > o Ivan Choy > > * India > o Cho Ramaswamy > > * Spain > o Federico Jiménez Losantos > o Iñaki Gabilondo > o Luis del Olmo > > * United Kingdom > o David Aaronovitch > o Gary Lineker > o Matthew Le Tissier > o Tim Henman > o Andy Gray > o John Motson > o Martin Tyler > o Vanessa Feltz > o Germaine Greer > o Christopher Hitchens > o Peter Hitchens > o John McCririck > o George Monbiot > o Melanie Phillips > > * United States > o Glenn Beck > o Neal Boortz > o Tucker Carlson > o Stephen Colbert > o Alan Colmes > o Ann Coulter > o Lou Dobbs > o Roger Ebert > o Al Franken > o Nancy Grace > o Sean Hannity > o Christopher Hitchens > o Ezra Klein > o Rush Limbaugh > o Rachel Maddow > o Bill Maher > o Michelle Malkin > o Chris Matthews > o Keith Olbermann >o Bill O'Reilly > o Joe Scarborough > o Michael Savage > o Mark Steyn > o Jon Stewart > > Sports Pundits > o Skip Bayless > o Mike Francesa > o Peter Gammons > o Mike Golic > o Mike Greenberg > o Jay Mariotti > o Woody Paige > o Jim Rome > o Chris Russo > o Stephen A. Smith > o Dick Vitale > o Michael Wilbon > o Tony Kornheiser > o Lou Holtz > o Keyman Ma > > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for > the British. > > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. > > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team. > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. > > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their > observations without being found out. They were trained to make > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat > also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers: > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite > that during their travels. > > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with > remarkable precision. > > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions, > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law. > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their > official use. > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh > wrote: >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: inder salim >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. >> >> Dear Bhat sahib >> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place >> democratic rule of laws'. >> >> now i quote you again, >> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be >> violent. >> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. >> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) >> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. >> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism >> can not be defined as such. >> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? >> >> warmly >> is >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat >> wrote: >>> Inder salim >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these rotten >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? >>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them to distribute the butter equally for them.! >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? >>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! >>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be violent. >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list made one >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? >>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 20:25:15 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 10:55:15 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] (no subject) References: <4b1e36590810180150r34d1ae8el1b29297e65473e25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The problem gets worse when those who are consider or those who consider themselves intelectual elite themselves turn reactionary. "You Moron", "you disgust me" "I spit" etc are the phrases which occurred in mails by those who are difficult to filtered out. We get to read some of the mails, that are otherwise filtered out, because of these mails, as the replies from those intelectuals who always are available and keen to react to everything that comes from some members who some of the list members have filtered out. Please do not make this list a ground for a slinging match between Hindu/Muslim defenders and Hindu/Muslim bashers. Hazar gam hain zamane mein religion ke siva. There are several other better things to discuss, and several other ways to engage. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Appu Esthose Suresh" To: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 4:50 AM Subject: [Reader-list] (no subject) > *Guys please grow up!* Most of us joined this list to engage in > constructive > discussion to fill in the vaccum left out by half baked and lopsided > information and also to exchange ones views on various subjects. But, this > is ridiculous! Every time I open the mail, I find murk thrown at each > other. > To be passionate about an issue is perfect, I appreciate that; but for god > sake don't get personal. > The exchanges in this list has stooped down to such an extend that you > guys > are venturing into individual targeting and maligning. This is not > acceptable. > > Do consider that there are others in the list and frankly speaking its is > annoying to find the kind of mails that I am referring to. All that left > now > is *maa, behan ghalli*, Be a bit more *civilized.* > > I would suggest henceforth: > 1) Please stop referring to individual > 2) Limit the sarcasm to an idea or an argument > 3) You can have your strong voices, but please don't confront with harsh > remarks like, "your ideas are nothing but garbage", I spit on your > remarks...what is all these??? > > *To the monitors of this list, I strongly suggest to issue a code of > conduct > *. > > Regards > > Appu Esthose Suresh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 21:07:01 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:37:01 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] The race could be over, but the race isn't (The Hindu) Message-ID: The race could be over, but Race isn't P. Sainath Barack Obama faces prejudice on at least three levels: Race, for he is African-American. Islam, for his middle name is Hussein. And a concocted association with that media-moulded Pavlovian buzzword in the American mind: terrorists. "I can't trust Obama," said the old lady to John McCain at his election meeting. "I've heard . He's an Arab." Senator McCain grabbed the mike from her swiftly and said: "No ma'am, he's a decent family man." That was a double hit. First the old lady, perhaps responding to weeks of Barack Obama 'His-middle-name-is-Hussein' baiting, called him an Arab. The second was Mr. McCain, in his embarrassment, counter-posing being Arab to being "a decent family man." Mr. McCain's embarrassment came not so much from what was said, but from where it was said. The chickens of some visceral campaign crowing were coming home to roost - on his public platform. He didn't need that. But the genie was out. There have been meetings in which Republican vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin has spoken of how Mr. Obama "palled around with terrorists." Others (including sections of the media) have been playing the race card at different levels. Efforts to delink the Republican campaign from this have bombed. Mr. McCain was booed by his own crowd while trying to calm down people who said they were "scared" of Mr. Obama. "Kill him" was one cry from a member of the audience at a Palin rally after a mention of the Democratic presidential candidate. "Terrorist," screamed another about him at a McCain meeting. The blood is up. At this point, no self-respecting genie would accept a tame return into the bottle. And it isn't half as bad yet as it could be. The media do emit clucking noises of disapproval on the "ugliness" of what has been happening. Especially what has been happening at the Republican rallies. But it just isn't so simple. The same media have spent millions of dollars in coverage demonising Muslims in general and Arabs in particular. And that for many years now. Just the fact that Mr. Obama's middle name is Hussein - the Senator is a Christian - is enough to touch the fear within many, of Muslims. And racism, socially embedded, predates the McCain-Palin meetings and rallies. Trying merely to touch a chord, Mr. McCain and Ms Palin set off the whole orchestra. Even now, the powerful Fox channel is running "investigations" on the "real" Barack Obama. These turn up such deadly revelations as his having known a couple of Pakistanis in his younger days. And having, horror of horrors, visited Pakistan. All in all, the Democratic hopeful faces prejudice on at least three levels: Race, for he is African-American. Islam, for his middle name is Hussein. And a concocted association with that media-moulded Pavlovian buzzword in the American mind: terrorists. Sure, Mr. Obama is ahead of Mr. McCain in all the polls. That is far more the outcome of the economic crisis than any other factor. The Wall Street debacle has dealt a terrible blow to the Republicans. The party has been eight years in power and the biggest addition to the national debt came during that period. As did countless measures that allowed Corporate America to land the country in the mess it has. Tens of thousands of families face foreclosures on their mortgages each month. Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade. It has not been a great time. Mr. McCain's link to the past - he voted 90 per cent of the time with George Bush - hobbles him very badly. Endless drivel about the "success of the surge" in Iraq does not hide the fact that America's wars are going badly. It's from when the Wall Street collapse began that Mr. Obama really moved ahead to secure his lead in the polls. But it's surprising how much smaller his leads are - 6 to 7 per cent in most, not all, polls - at this stage. If Mr. Obama were white, those leads would have been very much higher, especially in light of the crisis. Maybe more than twice as high. And there is the fear that some of the white voters who tell pollsters they will vote for Mr. Obama, finally won't. That is, racial prejudice will assert itself amongst these voters. Even some pro-Democratic pollsters believe that 2 to 4 per cent of white voters declaring themselves for Mr. Obama will not in the end vote for him. Others believe that the loss could be as high as 5 per cent or worse. This hidden racism is called the "Bradley effect." (In 1982, Mayor Tom Bradley of Los Angeles made a run for Governor of California and the polls, even the last minute ones, showed him riding a high margin of victory. He actually lost.) Pollsters concluded that voters lied to them when the candidate was an African-American. If so, things are not as comfortable for Mr. Obama as they seem at this moment. It may turn out that the Bradley effect is drowned by the Wall Street effect and he sails through. It could also be true that support for Mr. Obama is in fact underestimated by pollsters who call voters on their home phones. Most of the young people who support Mr. Obama use cell phones - and pollsters tend not to call on those. Whichever way you cut it, though, it is unwise to dismiss the impact the Race factor can have on the election even now. That too, when it ties Race in with Religion ('Obama is a Muslim') and Terrorism. Even if and when Mr. Obama wins, as the economic meltdown must ensure he does, it could turn out that his margin over Mr. McCain in the popular vote is less than the one he will notch up in the electoral college vote. American Presidents are not chosen by a nation-wide popular vote. The electoral vote totals determine the winner. In the 2000 election, Al Gore got a higher share of the popular vote. But Mr. Bush won the majority of the electoral votes and with that, the presidency. Meanwhile, what the commentators delicately refer to as 'an undercurrent of racism' isn't quite staying under. It is true, though, that it is not anywhere as bad as it can really get. But it can and will hurt. The kind of mood seen amongst members of the audience at the McCain-Palin meetings raises fears of violence, too. A black television cameraman at one of these came in for verbal abuse. And that could be just the beginning. "Race is the great fault line in American politics," says journalist and columnist Conn Hallinan. "Judging how it moves is no easy task in the sense we must wait till Nov. 4 to really know. But it is certain to send tremors through the American political system." The unions supporting the Democratic Party are finding some members tripping over that fault line. And learning about a few tremors from their activists out campaigning. There are even special sessions advising activists on how to deal with fears they encounter amongst their members and the broader labour vote - fears arising from racial prejudice. The New York Times found that "Union canvassers are also confronting an unprecedented factor in this election - Mr. Obama's race - making the effects of their door-to-door appeals less predictable." It goes on to quote the AFL-CIO's political director as saying: "We're very conscious of the fact that many voters have never voted for an African-American for any office. For some voters, including union voters, particularly older voters, there is a reluctance." And the Democratic candidate needs to ensure large margins in the union vote in States like Wisconsin. Racial prejudice works its way into discussions of the economic debacle, too. There are dark hints that the mortgage crisis was brought on by including unworthy people who had no chance of paying up. This sometimes becomes a coded reference to non-white communities. A view in which, it all went wrong because of "them." (In one estimate, 22 per cent of subprimes went to African-Americans. About 22 per cent went to Latinos.) This approach is used to take the focus off lenders who lied to and bamboozled clients, the poor and middle class of all communities and blame the victims, points out the Rev. Jesse Jackson, himself a presidential hopeful in 1984. And, as foreseen on this page last week, efforts to disenfranchise less privileged voters are now under way. Some of this operates on claims of unearthing "huge fraud in voter registration." Some in terms of raising technical problems for those who have experienced foreclosure and could lose their residential addresses. There are still three weeks to go and more of this could still unfold in that time. Given the enormous and complicated hurdles, Mr. Obama has been incredibly lucky. The Wall Street disaster has boosted his bid for presidency as nothing else could. At this point, he is clearly ahead. The race could be over, but Race isn't. Not yet. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 18 23:08:40 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:08:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810180701h203d180ata2d0e3fdde92d39d@mail.gmail.com> References: <955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <73eb60090810180701h203d180ata2d0e3fdde92d39d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810181038l66b6d7dar18a206911c6c76f4@mail.gmail.com> Kirdar ji, Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were converted by Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They were bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think that is legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's. I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live happily. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/18/08, kirdar singh wrote: > > Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you > convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he > go to? Can he apply for Brahminship? > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh > > wrote: > > Dear Kirdar Ji, > > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account > about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" : > one of the four castes of Hindus. > > Regards, > > Prabhakar > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: kirdar singh > > To: Prabhakar Singh > > Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with > caution. > > > > Prabhakar ji > > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: > > > > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of > > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in > > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu > > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India > > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible > > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to > > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" > > > > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or > > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political > > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed > > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular > > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory > > manner as well. > > > > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is > > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English > > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects > > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king > > or mayor. > > > > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its > > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, > > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its > > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of > > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth > > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were > > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News, > > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term > > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary > > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also > > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer > > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable > > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe > > Lieberman. > > > > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print > > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the > > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also > > be referred to as talking heads. > > > > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on > > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular > > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His > > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others, > > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express > > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] > > > > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by > > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact > > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or > > observations[3]. > > > > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert > > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as > > well. > > > > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a > > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe > > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, > > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. > > > > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: > > > > * Australia > > o Andrew Bolt > > o Phil Cleary > > o Germaine Greer > > o John Laws > > o Glenn Milne > > > > * Brazil > > o Olavo de Carvalho > > o Reinaldo Azevedo > > > > * Canada > > o Michael Coren > > > > * Chile > > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce > > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez > > o Patricio Navia > > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic > > > > * Hong Kong, China > > o Ivan Choy > > > > * India > > o Cho Ramaswamy > > > > * Spain > > o Federico Jiménez Losantos > > o Iñaki Gabilondo > > o Luis del Olmo > > > > * United Kingdom > > o David Aaronovitch > > o Gary Lineker > > o Matthew Le Tissier > > o Tim Henman > > o Andy Gray > > o John Motson > > o Martin Tyler > > o Vanessa Feltz > > o Germaine Greer > > o Christopher Hitchens > > o Peter Hitchens > > o John McCririck > > o George Monbiot > > o Melanie Phillips > > > > * United States > > o Glenn Beck > > o Neal Boortz > > o Tucker Carlson > > o Stephen Colbert > > o Alan Colmes > > o Ann Coulter > > o Lou Dobbs > > o Roger Ebert > > o Al Franken > > o Nancy Grace > > o Sean Hannity > > o Christopher Hitchens > > o Ezra Klein > > o Rush Limbaugh > > o Rachel Maddow > > o Bill Maher > > o Michelle Malkin > > o Chris Matthews > > o Keith Olbermann > >o Bill O'Reilly > > o Joe Scarborough > > o Michael Savage > > o Mark Steyn > > o Jon Stewart > > > > Sports Pundits > > o Skip Bayless > > o Mike Francesa > > o Peter Gammons > > o Mike Golic > > o Mike Greenberg > > o Jay Mariotti > > o Woody Paige > > o Jim Rome > > o Chris Russo > > o Stephen A. Smith > > o Dick Vitale > > o Michael Wilbon > > o Tony Kornheiser > > o Lou Holtz > > o Keyman Ma > > > > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to > > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for > > the British. > > > > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the > > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted > > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just > > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire > > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set > > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to > > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region > > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. > > > > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the > > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow > > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team. > > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised > > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from > > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them > > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, > > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama > > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. > > > > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their > > observations without being found out. They were trained to make > > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked > > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 > > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a > > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist > > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat > > also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers: > > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel > > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this > > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of > > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite > > that during their travels. > > > > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned > > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of > > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received > > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them > > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they > > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with > > remarkable precision. > > > > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as > > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British > > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions, > > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The > > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the > > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law. > > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some > > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing > > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the > > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their > > official use. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh > > wrote: > >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a > Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only > confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular > and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are > ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: inder salim > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with > caution. > >> > >> Dear Bhat sahib > >> > >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. > >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place > >> democratic rule of laws'. > >> > >> now i quote you again, > >> > >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, > >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be > >> violent. > >> > >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you > >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i > >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. > >> > >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one > >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or > >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the > >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) > >> > >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other > >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. > >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. > >> > >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that > >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his > >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his > >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that > >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, > >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism > >> can not be defined as such. > >> > >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of > >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? > >> > >> warmly > >> is > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat > >> wrote: > >>> Inder salim > >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with > fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts > that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the > express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of > kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of > hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with > your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of > democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you > when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, > "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to > bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they > represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as > agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these > rotten > >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., > >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by > violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that > were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings > like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not > accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, > that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the > muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small > margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of > Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and > tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society > of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other > hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better > united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? > >>> > >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent > of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash > the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken > for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks > and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how > if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the > nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking > the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, > sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the > each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of > faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other > so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them > to distribute the butter equally for them.! > >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our > way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is > unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, > it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is > often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, > which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes > from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his > commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who > indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must > get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a > Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what > wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, > are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? > >>> > >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that > courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british > rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a > temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be > built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in > India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained > secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had > disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the > leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a > true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, > judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, > not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! > >>> > >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any > faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, > the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to > cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any > violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when > system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or > as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are > shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, > investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound > to be violent. > >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very > secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? > The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, > as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most > uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain > inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all > school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts > also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and > accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but > ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress > or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but > the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to > post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list > made one > >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? > >>> > >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 00:34:47 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:04:47 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: References: <566768.79994.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <32144e990810180335g1d9981c7p81f7427987ccdf23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I re-post below at the admin's advise the mail I had sent out yesterday and which had been withheld > because of the attached pdf-file. Britta, Thanks for forwarding the article. I think your account is very important for all of us, on both "sides". It's a pity it refuses to go through even in-text. Tapas Dear All, I am pasting a few snippets from the opening part of Britta's article, as it is repeatedly being blocked by the server, apparently. This article is the result of her fieldwork in Naroda Patia, a name that needs no introduction. For those of us who argue against Hindu fundamentalism largely on ideological considerations, it shows exactly what social process is at work in Gujarat (and now in other states now). For those who talk about "Hindus ... fighting for their own existence in their own motherland", it offers an opportunity to pause for a moment and think whether this can properly be called their struggle for existence or their war of aggression against and isolation/extermination of a minority community. Incidentally, Britta is probably German or Austrian (Britta, please correct me if I am wrong). I think that gives her a certain sensitivity about and to fascism that I have noticed in a German friend of mine. This, apart from her academic understanding of the phenomenon, makes her words extremely significant when she draws a parallel with Germany while noting certain differences that make the process at work in Gujarat probably more insidious than it was in Germany during the Nazi era. Tapas PS: Britta, you may want to upload the file to Box.net or X-drive and "share" it with the reader-list email address. silences in gujarat december 8, 2007 Economic & Political Weekly Narratives of the Underbelly of Democracy Britta Ohm Five years after the anti-Muslim pogrom in Gujarat, the victims want to talk about their continued sufferings. No one prevents them from doing so. Only, there are no listeners. For the Gujarat government they simply do not exist, for the media their story is not immediate and urgent, and for the majority their harping on grievances is proof of an unwillingness to bury the past. In post-democracy Gujarat, policies take precedence over the political and victims of pogroms or genocides are merely obstacles to economic progress ... The Gujarat pogrom of 2002 has by now trickled into the larger global debate ... (but) ... in India itself... (has) vanished from the headlines. ... When I had returned to India in the company of a friend earlier this year for some follow-up research on a project on Indian media under transnationalisation1, it had been the lingering indifference to what had actually happened and the absence of coverage on Gujarat in the mass media that provoked our decision to travel to Ahmedabad. I just wanted to see what a few reports told me was anything but "back to normal". The very fact that there was no difficulty in accessing sites, people or organisations in the Muslim community, already underlined that their recognition was a matter of choice rather than of possibility. In this sense, Prashant Jha's suggestion that Gujarat is a "fascist realm"2 is slightly misleading, as it conjures up ideas of authoritarian regimes, like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin, that would do anything to hide their crimes, suppress their critics and silence their victims, making an investigation an existential endeavour. The Gujarat victims' readiness to talk should still not be mistaken for an actual freedom to do so. Insofar as open suppression has, at least on the surface, been replaced largely by denial and the insistence on "normalcy", however, Jha is right if one understands "fascist realm" as a manifestation of "everyday fascism", i e, as the Austrian writer Elisabeth Reichart has defined it, "as an authoritarian and hierarchical mode of thought and behaviour based on discrimination and lack of equality, [that] renders attempts at self-definition futile and interpersonal relations hence potentially exploitative and explosive"3 and that is not directly opposed to democracy. The atmosphere was probably most comparable to Germany after the war, when Germans, already mesmerised by the emerging economic boom, went about the rubble and debris in their cities, unable and unwilling to realise the degree of destruction beyond their own property and the dimensions of cruelty and suffering they had tolerated and supported. In today's Gujarat, though, things appear indeed far more "normal", able to convey to the non-specified first-time visitor, who does not venture into Muslim areas, an image of the non-interrupted every day. A tourist couple from Italy who had just returned from Ahmedabad, where they went mainly to look at the fabulous textile museum, had heard about the "riots" but described the situation in the city as "normal. People told us there had always been violence between Muslims and Hindus, but now you can see in the old city, there is one Muslim shop and one Hindu shop next to each other and no trouble." This is the other commonly acceptable narrative, the cultural version of "natural" Hindu-Muslim antagonism since time immemorial that "breaks free" at times and is independent from changing political conditions and technologies. Yet the non-normal lies in Ahmedabad so immediately under the surface, and actually so obviously supplants it, that its perception is not a matter of physical possibility. We tried to avoid linking up with an non-governmental organisation (NGO) or local organisation in order to get an entry into the "normality" first. Our first exploration began with the walled city (or old city). To the more experienced eye it became obvious that Hindu and Muslim areas were strictly segregated along an almost invisible pattern, while the displayed goods were mainly household utensils in plastic or metal and an extremely limited choice of nylon saris and salwars. The breathtaking, Jumma Masjid was hardly frequented and the exceptional 'jalis' (lattice work) in Sidi Sayiad's mosque were badly kept. An "audio-synchronised walking tour through the historic walled city" that the ethno-styled house of MG offered with colourfully designed leaflets4 – which featured state-of-the-art portraits of Muslim and Hindu faces in different folkloristic attire and pertinent signs of both religions – seemed like a forlorn bright ray of light in a darkened landscape, indicating the stark contrast between what was and what could be. Beyond the Border It was Naroda Patia that was first on our list, the outskirts north-east of the city centre that had seen the most ruthless violence in 2002 ... From aman.am at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 01:56:12 2008 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:26:12 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] 870 per cent gains on the market last year and a plea to legalise marijuana Message-ID: <995a19920810181326x1f608d7dq8f5758b678e22c77@mail.gmail.com> >From bloomberg.com Lahde Quits Hedge Funds, Thanks `Idiots' for Success (Update1) By Katherine Burton Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Andrew Lahde, the hedge-fund manager who quit after posting an 870 percent gain last year, said farewell to clients in a letter that thanks stupid traders for making him rich and ends with a plea to legalize marijuana. Lahde, head of Santa Monica, California-based Lahde Capital Management LLC, told investors last month he was returning their cash because the risk of using credit derivatives -- his means of betting on the falling value of bonds and loans, including subprime mortgages -- was too risky given the weakness of the banks he was trading with. ``I was in this game for money,'' Lahde, 37, wrote in a two-page letter today in which he said he had come to hate the hedge-fund business. ``The low-hanging fruit, i.e. idiots whose parents paid for prep school, Yale and then the Harvard MBA, was there for the taking. These people who were (often) truly not worthy of the education they received (or supposedly received) rose to the top of companies such as AIG, Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and all levels of our government. ``All of this behavior supporting the Aristocracy, only ended up making it easier for me to find people stupid enough to take the other sides of my trades. God Bless America.'' Lahde, who managed about $80 million, told clients he'll be content to invest his own money, rather than taking cash from wealthy individuals and institutions and trying to amass a fortune worth hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars. ``I do not understand the legacy thing,'' he wrote. ``Nearly everyone will be forgotten. Give up on leaving your mark. Throw the Blackberry away and enjoy life.'' Request for Soros He said he'd spend his time repairing his health ``as well as my entire life -- where I had to compete for spaces at universities, and graduate schools, jobs and assets under management -- with those who had all the advantages (rich parents) that I did not.'' He also suggested that billionaire George Soros sponsor a forum in which ``great minds'' would come together to create a new system of government, as the current system ``is clearly broken.'' Lahde ended his letter with a plea for the increased use of hemp as an alternative source of food and energy that segued into a call for the legalization of marijuana. ``Hemp has been used for at least 5,000 years for cloth and food, as well as just about everything that is produced from petroleum products,'' he wrote. ``Hemp is not marijuana and vice versa. Hemp is the male plant and it grows like a weed, hence the slang term.'' `Innocuous Plant' He added, ``The evil female plant -- marijuana. It gets you high, it makes you laugh, it does not produce a hangover. Unlike alcohol, it does not result in bar fights or wife beating. So, why is this innocuous plant illegal? Is it a gateway drug? No, that would be alcohol, which is so heavily advertised in this country.'' Lahde said the only reason marijuana remains illegal is because ``Corporate America, which owns Congress, would rather sell you Paxil, Zoloft, Xanax and other addictive drugs, than allow you to grow a plant in your home without some of the profits going into their coffers.'' Lahde graduated from Michigan State University with a degree in finance and holds an MBA from the University of California, Los Angeles. He worked at Los Angeles-based hedge fund Dalton Investments LLC before founding his own firm two years ago with about $10 million. Lahde wasn't available for comment. A woman at his firm, who asked not to be identified, confirmed the authenticity of the letter. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 09:51:34 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 09:51:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mac Haque responds on Baul issue Message-ID: Mac Haque, formerly lead singer of a rock band, now a baul devotee, writes claiming that the demolished statue is not of Lalon Shah. Stay tuned... Dear Mr.Mahfuz Anam, http://thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=59289 As has been the unfortunate situation with your newspaper, misinformation and myths appear to creep into all your reportings and it now sems is spiralling upward to your Editorials. Let this be recorded that there are historically - no known 'images', photographs or statues in existence of our venerated sAGE anywhere in the world, and a lithograph going about (and often seen in Posters/Tee shirts and even Newspapers) is NOT that of our sHAIJI! Indeed if at all - it is a representation of bAUL's - any bAUL for that matter. Yours is probably the only newspaper that continues to write that a figurative representation of /\Fakir Lalon Shah was among 5 sculptures demolished by bigots last Wednesday opposite the Dhaka Airport. It is far from the truth, and most disturbingly lends credence to the bigots claims - that there was an attempt to raise an 'idol' of sHAIJI - a misnformation of devastating consequence, because idolatry is prohibited in the bAULs agnostic belief system. We worship the gREAT gOD in MAN - indeed all mANKIND. I hope you will be sensitive to the feelings of your audience and the bAUL fraternity at large, and ask your people to do some more research and study on bAULs and /\Lalon Shaiji. Peace /\ jOI gURU Maqsoodul Haque - Mac From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 09:56:12 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 09:56:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Many Christians forced to embrace Hinduism In-Reply-To: References: <73eb60090810180606x6311ab6bg5367b03921dda4b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090810182126m32e5c822ne83be0e4587aee95@mail.gmail.com> Dear friends at Sarai I am forwarding this frank response from someone who must be on Sarai, but didn't post to everyone. Look at the kind of language our countrymen (or women) use... On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Real Unreal wrote: > yeh christian > to harami hai hi, saath mein hum saab ko bawakoof bana rahan hain > paisa hai hi asi cheez, kisi ko be dado, who ganth dikhaya ga > > bura kay hai, magar in haramiyoon nay america aur australia mein sab > ko saaf hi kiya, > > accha to nahi hai, magar kay karay yeh garib log, kuch to mil raha > hai, dharam ko chatna hai kay > > cross ko ganth mein lanay say agar do roti mil jaya to bura kay hai > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM, kirdar singh wrote: >> "Many Christians forced to embrace Hinduism" >> >> Staff Reporter >> >> NEW DELHI: Janhastakshep has expressed concern over "organised >> violence perpetrated by Hindutva forces on Christians in Orissa and >> Karnataka and on minorities in other States". >> >> At a meeting on "Attacks on minorities: Challenges before the >> democratic movement" here earlier this week, Prof. Manoranjan Mohanty, >> who went as a member of a fact-finding team to Orissa, said >> large-scale attacks were carried out against Christians: "Many >> Christians were forced to embrace Hinduism to escape physical >> elimination. What was shocking was the indifferent attitude of the >> police and State officials. They looked the other way when violent >> attacks were carried out." >> >> Calling upon civil liberty and human rights groups to jointly condemn >> such attacks on minorities, Prof. Mohanty said: "The attacks on >> minorities are not a minority issue but an issue of minority rights >> that are essential to democracy." >> >> Human rights lawyer Prashant Bhushan said the police helped by the >> media had served to project Muslims as terrorists. >> >> "Indiscriminate arrests of educated Muslims are being carried out," >> said Mr. Bhushan, adding that even the Supreme Court and the National >> Human Rights Commission's guidelines on arrest were not followed. >> Resolution >> >> The meeting adopted a resolution demanding that those responsible for >> attacks on minorities and their institutions be dealt with in >> accordance with the rule of law. It also demanded a time-bound >> judicial inquiry by a sitting judge of the Supreme Court into the >> Jamia Nagar encounter. >> >> The resolution also sought an end to "indiscriminate harassment" and >> arrest of educated Muslim youths and their families. >> >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/18/stories/2008101856330400.htm >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 10:02:58 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:02:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: <6353c690810181038l66b6d7dar18a206911c6c76f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <73eb60090810180701h203d180ata2d0e3fdde92d39d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810181038l66b6d7dar18a206911c6c76f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090810182132x463a93d5ja7efe1b77376f32b@mail.gmail.com> Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at gun point in Orissa. You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system." -- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also have to intentions to spoil your happiness. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kirdar ji, > > Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were converted by > Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They were > bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think that is > legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's. > > I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live happily. > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 10/18/08, kirdar singh wrote: >> >> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you >> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he >> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship? >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh >> >> wrote: >> > Dear Kirdar Ji, >> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account >> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" : >> one of the four castes of Hindus. >> > Regards, >> > Prabhakar >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: kirdar singh >> > To: Prabhakar Singh >> > Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net >> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with >> caution. >> > >> > Prabhakar ji >> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: >> > >> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of >> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in >> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu >> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India >> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible >> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to >> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" >> > >> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or >> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political >> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed >> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular >> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory >> > manner as well. >> > >> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is >> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English >> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects >> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king >> > or mayor. >> > >> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its >> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, >> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its >> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of >> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth >> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were >> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News, >> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term >> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary >> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also >> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer >> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable >> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe >> > Lieberman. >> > >> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print >> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the >> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also >> > be referred to as talking heads. >> > >> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on >> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular >> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His >> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others, >> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express >> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] >> > >> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by >> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact >> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or >> > observations[3]. >> > >> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert >> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as >> > well. >> > >> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a >> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe >> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, >> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. >> > >> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: >> > >> > * Australia >> > o Andrew Bolt >> > o Phil Cleary >> > o Germaine Greer >> > o John Laws >> > o Glenn Milne >> > >> > * Brazil >> > o Olavo de Carvalho >> > o Reinaldo Azevedo >> > >> > * Canada >> > o Michael Coren >> > >> > * Chile >> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce >> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez >> > o Patricio Navia >> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic >> > >> > * Hong Kong, China >> > o Ivan Choy >> > >> > * India >> > o Cho Ramaswamy >> > >> > * Spain >> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos >> > o Iñaki Gabilondo >> > o Luis del Olmo >> > >> > * United Kingdom >> > o David Aaronovitch >> > o Gary Lineker >> > o Matthew Le Tissier >> > o Tim Henman >> > o Andy Gray >> > o John Motson >> > o Martin Tyler >> > o Vanessa Feltz >> > o Germaine Greer >> > o Christopher Hitchens >> > o Peter Hitchens >> > o John McCririck >> > o George Monbiot >> > o Melanie Phillips >> > >> > * United States >> > o Glenn Beck >> > o Neal Boortz >> > o Tucker Carlson >> > o Stephen Colbert >> > o Alan Colmes >> > o Ann Coulter >> > o Lou Dobbs >> > o Roger Ebert >> > o Al Franken >> > o Nancy Grace >> > o Sean Hannity >> > o Christopher Hitchens >> > o Ezra Klein >> > o Rush Limbaugh >> > o Rachel Maddow >> > o Bill Maher >> > o Michelle Malkin >> > o Chris Matthews >> > o Keith Olbermann >> >o Bill O'Reilly >> > o Joe Scarborough >> > o Michael Savage >> > o Mark Steyn >> > o Jon Stewart >> > >> > Sports Pundits >> > o Skip Bayless >> > o Mike Francesa >> > o Peter Gammons >> > o Mike Golic >> > o Mike Greenberg >> > o Jay Mariotti >> > o Woody Paige >> > o Jim Rome >> > o Chris Russo >> > o Stephen A. Smith >> > o Dick Vitale >> > o Michael Wilbon >> > o Tony Kornheiser >> > o Lou Holtz >> > o Keyman Ma >> > >> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to >> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for >> > the British. >> > >> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the >> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted >> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just >> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire >> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set >> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to >> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region >> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. >> > >> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the >> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow >> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team. >> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised >> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from >> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them >> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, >> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama >> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. >> > >> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their >> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make >> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked >> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 >> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a >> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist >> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat >> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers: >> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel >> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this >> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of >> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite >> > that during their travels. >> > >> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned >> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of >> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received >> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them >> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they >> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with >> > remarkable precision. >> > >> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as >> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British >> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions, >> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The >> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the >> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law. >> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some >> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing >> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the >> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their >> > official use. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh >> > wrote: >> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a >> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only >> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular >> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are >> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> >> From: inder salim >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with >> caution. >> >> >> >> Dear Bhat sahib >> >> >> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. >> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place >> >> democratic rule of laws'. >> >> >> >> now i quote you again, >> >> >> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, >> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be >> >> violent. >> >> >> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you >> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i >> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. >> >> >> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one >> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or >> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the >> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) >> >> >> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other >> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. >> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. >> >> >> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that >> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his >> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his >> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that >> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, >> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism >> >> can notbe defined as such. >> >> >> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of >> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? >> >> >> >> warmly >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat >> >> wrote: >> >>> Inder salim >> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with >> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts >> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the >> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of >> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of >> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with >> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of >> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you >> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, >> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to >> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they >> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as >> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these >> rotten >> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., >> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by >> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that >> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings >> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not >> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, >> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the >> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small >> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of >> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and >> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society >> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other >> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better >> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? >> >>> >> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent >> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash >> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken >> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks >> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how >> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the >> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking >> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, >> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the >> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of >> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other >> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them >> to distribute the butter equally for them.! >> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our >> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is >> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, >> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is >> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, >> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes >> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his >> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who >> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must >> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a >> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what >> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, >> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? >> >>> >> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that >> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british >> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a >> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be >> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in >> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained >> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had >> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the >> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a >> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, >> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, >> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! >> >>> >> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any >> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, >> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to >> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any >> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when >> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or >> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are >> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, >> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound >> to be violent. >> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very >> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? >> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, >> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most >> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain >> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all >> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts >> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faiths and >> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but >> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress >> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but >> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to >> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list >> made one >> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? >> >>> >> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> > >> > >> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From hiddenbuthere at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 10:24:37 2008 From: hiddenbuthere at gmail.com (Real Unreal) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:24:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: References: <955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <73eb60090810180701h203d180ata2d0e3fdde92d39d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810181038l66b6d7dar18a206911c6c76f4@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090810182132x463a93d5ja7efe1b77376f32b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Real Unreal wrote: > is aditya pandit poot kay lund pa abi dunda nahi pada hai > jawan hai, do teen dili ki bilayan jaab panja gardan pa maar dangai, > to bolna seekh jaya ga > vasay parveen tagodia say milanay to jagta hi hoga, > suna ha londoon ka bada shokeen hai > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM, kirdar singh wrote: >> Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them >> education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at >> gun point in Orissa. >> >> You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system." >> -- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON >> >> You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your >> ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't >> show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also >> have to intentions to spoil your happiness. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >>> Kirdar ji, >>> >>> Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were converted by >>> Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They were >>> bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think that is >>> legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's. >>> >>> I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live happily. >>> >>> Love >>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>> >>> On 10/18/08, kirdar singh wrote: >>>> >>>> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you >>>> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he >>>> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> > Dear Kirdar Ji, >>>> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening account >>>> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was "Brahmin" : >>>> one of the four castes of Hindus. >>>> > Regards, >>>> > Prabhakar >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ---- >>>> > From: kirdar singh >>>> > To: Prabhakar Singh >>>> > Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net >>>> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM >>>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with >>>> caution. >>>> > >>>> > Prabhakar ji >>>> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: >>>> > >>>> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use of >>>> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court in >>>> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu >>>> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of India >>>> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible >>>> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to >>>> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" >>>> > >>>> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or >>>> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political >>>> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed >>>> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to popular >>>> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a derogatory >>>> > manner as well. >>>> > >>>> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is >>>> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in English >>>> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects >>>> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king >>>> > or mayor. >>>> > >>>> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its >>>> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, >>>> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its >>>> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of >>>> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and early-twentieth >>>> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were >>>> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily News, >>>> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term >>>> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary >>>> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also >>>> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer >>>> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable >>>> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe >>>> > Lieberman. >>>> > >>>> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print >>>> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the >>>> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may also >>>> > be referred to as talking heads. >>>> > >>>> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on >>>> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular >>>> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His >>>> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led others, >>>> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express >>>> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] >>>> > >>>> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by >>>> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in fact >>>> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or >>>> > observations[3]. >>>> > >>>> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert >>>> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as >>>> > well. >>>> > >>>> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a >>>> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will describe >>>> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, >>>> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. >>>> > >>>> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: >>>> > >>>> > * Australia >>>> > o Andrew Bolt >>>> > o Phil Cleary >>>> > o Germaine Greer >>>> > o John Laws >>>> > o Glenn Milne >>>> > >>>> > * Brazil >>>> > o Olavo de Carvalho >>>> > o Reinaldo Azevedo >>>> > >>>> > * Canada >>>> > o Michael Coren >>>> > >>>> > * Chile >>>> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce >>>> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez >>>> > o Patricio Navia >>>> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic >>>> > >>>> > * Hong Kong, China >>>> > o Ivan Choy >>>> > >>>> > * India >>>> > o Cho Ramaswamy >>>> > >>>> > * Spain >>>> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos >>>> > o Iñaki Gabilondo >>>> > o Luis del Olmo >>>> > >>>> > * United Kingdom >>>> > o David Aaronovitch >>>> > o Gary Lineker >>>> > o Matthew Le Tissier >>>> > o Tim Henman >>>> > o Andy Gray >>>> > o John Motson >>>> > o Martin Tyler >>>> > o Vanessa Feltz >>>> > o Germaine Greer >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens >>>> > o Peter Hitchens >>>> > o John McCririck >>>> > o George Monbiot >>>> > o Melanie Phillips >>>> > >>>> > * United States >>>> > o Glenn Beck >>>> > o Neal Boortz >>>> > o Tucker Carlson >>>> > o Stephen Colbert >>>> > o Alan Colmes >>>> > o Ann Coulter >>>> > o Lou Dobbs >>>> > o Roger Ebert >>>> > o Al Franken >>>> > o Nancy Grace >>>> > o Sean Hannity >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens >>>> > o Ezra Klein >>>> > o Rush Limbaugh >>>> > o Rachel Maddow >>>> > o Bill Maher >>>> > o Michelle Malkin >>>> > o Chris Matthews >>>> > o Keith Olbermann >>>> >o Bill O'Reilly >>>> > o Joe Scarborough >>>> > o Michael Savage >>>> > o Mark Steyn >>>> > o Jon Stewart >>>> > >>>> > Sports Pundits >>>> > o Skip Bayless >>>> > o Mike Francesa >>>> > o Peter Gammons >>>> > o Mike Golic >>>> > o Mike Greenberg >>>> > o Jay Mariotti >>>> > o Woody Paige >>>> > o Jim Rome >>>> > o Chris Russo >>>> > o Stephen A. Smith >>>> > o Dick Vitale >>>> > o Michael Wilbon >>>> > o Tony Kornheiser >>>> > o Lou Holtz >>>> > o Keyman Ma >>>> > >>>> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to >>>> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India for >>>> > the British. >>>> > >>>> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the >>>> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted >>>> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not just >>>> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their empire >>>> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set >>>> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried to >>>> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region >>>> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. >>>> > >>>> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of the >>>> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow >>>> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying team. >>>> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, realised >>>> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from >>>> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them >>>> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, >>>> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a lama >>>> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. >>>> > >>>> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make their >>>> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make >>>> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what looked >>>> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 >>>> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a >>>> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist >>>> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh Rawat >>>> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious co-travelers: >>>> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel >>>> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually this >>>> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of >>>> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite >>>> > that during their travels. >>>> > >>>> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned >>>> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of >>>> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also received >>>> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them >>>> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels they >>>> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with >>>> > remarkable precision. >>>> > >>>> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed as >>>> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, British >>>> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral traditions, >>>> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. The >>>> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the >>>> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu law. >>>> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some >>>> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing >>>> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of the >>>> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their >>>> > official use. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh >>>> > wrote: >>>> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without being a >>>> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only >>>> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only singular >>>> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who are >>>> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> >> From: inder salim >>>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM >>>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with >>>> caution. >>>> >> >>>> >> Dear Bhat sahib >>>> >> >>>> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. >>>> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in place >>>> >> democratic rule of laws'. >>>> >> >>>> >> now i quote you again, >>>> >> >>>> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, investigation, >>>> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be >>>> >> violent. >>>> >> >>>> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you >>>> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i >>>> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. >>>> >> >>>> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one >>>> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or >>>> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins the >>>> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) >>>> >> >>>> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the other >>>> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. >>>> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. >>>> >> >>>> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear that >>>> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his >>>> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his >>>> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied that >>>> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, >>>> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because Hinduism >>>> >> can notbe defined as such. >>>> >> >>>> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking of >>>> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? >>>> >> >>>> >> warmly >>>> >> is >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >>> Inder salim >>>> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with >>>> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the thoughts >>>> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in the >>>> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of >>>> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens of >>>> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation with >>>> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of >>>> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with you >>>> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin malik, >>>> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside to >>>> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the area they >>>> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of laws as >>>> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are these >>>> rotten >>>> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., >>>> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by >>>> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms that >>>> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic kings >>>> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did not >>>> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a nation, >>>> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the >>>> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that small >>>> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens out of >>>> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected and >>>> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the society >>>> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed other >>>> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, better >>>> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left idealogy.? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are tolerent >>>> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India to bash >>>> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be taken >>>> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote banks >>>> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have understood how >>>> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of the >>>> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush attacking >>>> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass destruction, >>>> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as the >>>> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim followers of >>>> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each other >>>> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is offering them >>>> to distribute the butter equally for them.! >>>> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in our >>>> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind is >>>> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very personal, >>>> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It is >>>> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different faith, >>>> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner votes >>>> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to his >>>> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or gowda who >>>> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen must >>>> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a >>>> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, what >>>> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the nation, >>>> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care facilities.? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true that >>>> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the british >>>> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that a >>>> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to be >>>> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all muslims in >>>> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we remained >>>> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only courts had >>>> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and the >>>> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is a >>>> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free India, >>>> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of appeasement, >>>> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any >>>> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the violence, >>>> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as a to >>>> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify any >>>> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is when >>>> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are burnt, or >>>> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers are >>>> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, >>>> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound >>>> to be violent. >>>> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very >>>> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very civilised.? >>>> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of others, >>>> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most >>>> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are brain >>>> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from all >>>> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational thoughts >>>> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all faithsand >>>> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but >>>> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head mistress >>>> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next week, but >>>> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I prefer to >>>> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on the list >>>> made one >>>> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> >>>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >> List archive: >>>> >> >>>> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >> List archive: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From hiddenbuthere at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 10:30:31 2008 From: hiddenbuthere at gmail.com (Real Unreal) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:30:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho, magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch zayada hi raita phala rahain hai bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko pila data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi ru On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray wrote: > It's just about Aditya. > > By the way, I love your chosen name. > > > 2008/10/18 Real Unreal : >> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a fragment of a >> large piece? >> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. >>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) >>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning >>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and >>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey >>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket >>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I >>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" >>> >>> >>> >>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : >>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you >>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. >>>> >>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. >>>> What can be worse ? >>>> >>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; >>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I >>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, >>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. >>>> >>>> >>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & >>>> CLEAR. Happy ??? >>>> >>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. >>>> >>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. >>>> >>>> Love >>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > From hiddenbuthere at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 10:40:29 2008 From: hiddenbuthere at gmail.com (Real Unreal) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:40:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <4b1e36590810180150r34d1ae8el1b29297e65473e25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: yeh agrazi tookh ( spit ) to inder salim nay apni ganth pa laga kay maza hi liya. gabrav maat, gali galoch to itni buri nahi hai jitni dikti hai. lafzoon ki jadoogari hai, chutiya, bhanchod to hum kahtiay hi hain, tookh mila kay daktay hai kaisi sarai mein bolay gi ? humaray wakti ki koyal hi to hai sun lo, and daktay roho. On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 8:25 PM, taraprakash wrote: > The problem gets worse when those who are consider or those who consider > themselves intelectual elite themselves turn reactionary. "You Moron", "you > disgust me" "I spit" etc are the phrases which occurred in mails by those > who are difficult to filtered out. We get to read some of the mails, that > are otherwise filtered out, because of these mails, as the replies from > those intelectuals who always are available and keen to react to everything > that comes from some members who some of the list members have filtered out. > Please do not make this list a ground for a slinging match between > Hindu/Muslim defenders and Hindu/Muslim bashers. > > Hazar gam hain zamane mein religion ke siva. > > There are several other better things to discuss, and several other ways to > engage. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Appu Esthose Suresh" > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 4:50 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] (no subject) > > >> *Guys please grow up!* Most of us joined this list to engage in >> constructive >> discussion to fill in the vaccum left out by half baked and lopsided >> information and also to exchange ones views on various subjects. But, this >> is ridiculous! Every time I open the mail, I find murk thrown at each >> other. >> To be passionate about an issue is perfect, I appreciate that; but for god >> sake don't get personal. >> The exchanges in this list has stooped down to such an extend that you >> guys >> are venturing into individual targeting and maligning. This is not >> acceptable. >> >> Do consider that there are others in the list and frankly speaking its is >> annoying to find the kind of mails that I am referring to. All that left >> now >> is *maa, behan ghalli*, Be a bit more *civilized.* >> >> I would suggest henceforth: >> 1) Please stop referring to individual >> 2) Limit the sarcasm to an idea or an argument >> 3) You can have your strong voices, but please don't confront with harsh >> remarks like, "your ideas are nothing but garbage", I spit on your >> remarks...what is all these??? >> >> *To the monitors of this list, I strongly suggest to issue a code of >> conduct >> *. >> >> Regards >> >> Appu Esthose Suresh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 11:35:35 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:35:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Christist conversion marketing as multinational enterprise -- TH Chowdary Message-ID: <6353c690810182305g79434f16qe427bb72c23b8405@mail.gmail.com> http://dharma1.blogspot.com/2008/10/christist-conversion-marketing-as.html Christist conversion marketing as multinational enterprise -- TH Chowdary October 7, 2008 *The Danger of Hindu-Christian Riots in Andhra Pradesh – TH Chowdary* The weeks-long Hindu Christian riots in Kandhamal District of Orissa and similar incidents in Karnataka are not unlikely to be repeated in Andhra Pradesh very soon. In Orissa and Karnataka the riots are precipitated by the intensive, aggressive, extensive activities of hundreds of missionary organizations with thousands of fulltime, well-paid propagandists and agents. In Kandhamal District, alone there are 350 missionary organizations funded from all quarters of the world. They are engaging lots and lots of unemployed people, to inveigle poor and uneducated Hindus into Christianity by monetary rewards, given in installments related to the number of people that these full-time marketers of Christianity are able to convert. Aiding them are the fifth columns of a number of NGOs with enticing names, all funded by Christian missions from abroad? The fact that in Kandhamal District alone the Christian population has increased from 6 percent in 1970 to 27 percent in 2001, despite an Act enacted by Orissa Legislature in 1967 to prevent conversion shows the intensity of the multinational conversion, [MNC] enterprises marketing and financial clout. 2. In Karnataka, it is plain blasphemy, openly and aggressively indulged in by an MNC enterprise that has led to the Hindu-Christian strife. In Andhra Pradesh, strife is building up and will burst with great fury in not too distant a time. In Village after Village, different denominations of Christians are planting churches, recruiting converts as pastors, paying them handsomely, they are also engaging thousands of unemployed Hindu youth for propagating Christianity and gaining converts. These are being rewarded in installments. Just as the total compensation of company employees is having a fixed and varying components, fixed amount and varying amount related to the number of converts they are able to bring into Christianity. 3 A look at the Table below shows the fantastically numerous places of worship or prayers of Muslims and Christians district-wise in our State it would be seen based upon Christian population is 1.44% as per the census of 2001, there is one place of worship for seven Christians and one place of worship for 39 Muslims and one place of worship for 341 Hindus. Existing No. of Temples, Mosques and Churches in as on 31st March 2005. (Revenue and Endowment Board of Andhra Pradesh) District Temples Churches Mosques Adilabad 12,346 3,347 18,482 Ananthpur 14,008 4,892 9,328 Chittor 26,120 9,098 12,320 Cuddpah 22,982 7,241 14,223 East Godavari 8,220 12,123 9,230 Guntur 9,302 16,388 5,429 Hyderabad 13,144 3,204 15,203 (Rangareddy) Kakinada 7,203 8,585 5,274 Karimnagar 4,129 1,648 9,714 Khammam 5,210 7,203 5,922 Krishna 8,929 8,462 3,769 Kurnool 6,549 5,203 9,293 Machlipatnam 5,000 8,320 6,493 Mahboobnagar 3,299 3,128 7,235 Medak 6,302 3,203 3,234 Nellore 7,993 6,782 7,323 Nalgonda 6,882 2,412 5,239 Nizamabad 4,638 3,203 9,366 Prakasham 4,255 5,583 4,932 Srikakulam 7,339 9,879 2,140 Warangal 1,393 6,320 1,342 West Godavari 3,293 5,464 2,765 Vishakapatnam 6,430 3,203 4,203 Vizianagaram 3,891 3,100 3,500 TOTAL 198,857 147,991 175,959 4 Where from is the money coming for the large number of Christians' places of worship, if the Christian population is only 1.44%? In contradiction of the census figures, leaders of Christian churches and associations having been asserting that their population is not less 10% to 12% in Andhra Pradesh and therefore every party must put up 10% to 12% candidates of their total number, from Christians. The difference between 1.44% as per GOI's census of 2001 and 10% to 12% claimed by Christians is clear indication of the fraud that the conversion enterprises are indulging in. It appears that they are telling the converts to continue to describe themselves as Hindu Scheduled Castes, so that they continue to get the benefit of reservations meant for Hindu SCs. They withhold the fact of conversion from the government records. At the same time in order to protect themselves from the exposure of fraud and continue to get benefit of reservations, they have launched a movement for get "Christian dalits". The greatest lure to get converts from Hindu Harijans is that in Christianity there are no castes. How come then that there are Dalits among Christians? Another fraud that the converters are indulging in is 70% of the Christians in Andhra Pradesh are former SCs. In the educational Institutions and medical Institutions that Christians are founding and managing, there are no reservations for "dalit Christians". But the churchmen and the converters are asking that in Hindu Institutions, including government and colleges there should be reservations to Christian dalits. 98% of the Bishops in India are from upper castes, while 70% of the Christians are former Scheduled Castes. The caste discrimination continues in Christianity. There are Reddy Christians, Kamma Christians, Brahmin Christians and Dalit Christians. They seldom inter-marry. This is another fraud for selling Christianity. 5 Almost all Hindus are feeling tremendously agitated about the intense activities of the multinational conversion enterprises, their planting of churches in Villages. Families are getting divided, so are Village populations and so will be the entire polity in the state. Wanting to know whether there is anything in the Gospels which promotes this division and strife in the people, I am surprised to find the following in the Gospel according to Luke in the New Testament Chapter 12, 51 "Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 "For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two New testament of Bible: 53: "Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother. 6 In Andhra Pradesh especially in districts of the Godavari, we are sitting on a time-bomb of Hindu-Christian strife. To prevent this, intelligentsia in the State and newspapers and media men with integrity must bring out the facts, including the conflict between 1.44% Christian population according to government on the one hand and thousands of churches and claims of Christian leaders that their population is 10% and more. Government should also find out where from the money is coming for thousands of full timers and buildings for churches. Income Tax authorities must also swing into action to assess the total cost of all the churches that are built and find out from the church owners, the sources of their funds. 7 Finally, Government of Andhra Pradesh is contributing not a small measure to the building up of strife between Christians and Hindus by subsidizing the pilgrimage of Christians to Jerusalem from the funds of the 'secular' Government of Andhra Pradesh. The 'secular' government is spending tax moneys for the performance of Christians' marriages. Government of Andhra Pradesh is not spending tax moneys for subsidizing the pilgrimage of Hindus or performance of their marriages. The TTD's 'Kalyanamastu' is financed by offerings of Hindus to the Hindu God, Balaji in Tirumala. Government of Andhra Pradesh is also spending tax moneys, performing marriages of Muslims.This way the government is contributing to the heart burning among Hindus and therefore for the building up of potential strife between the various religious communities in the state. It would be proper for any responsible government, especially the government of Andhra Pradesh which claims to be transparent and accountable to come out with a White Paper on the number of conversion enterprises, associated NGOs and finances available to the MNC enterprises to build numerous churches; how many are engaged as full timers for conversion activities and whether the Supreme Court's observation that the right to propagate guaranteed in the Constitution does not confer right to convert is being flouted by the MNC enterprises.. And since the conversion activities are conducted as a business with modern marketing methods, with multinational sources for funds, the constitutionally guaranteed freedom to propagate, profess and practice religion is being misused by the commercial activities of the multinational conversion enterprises. Right to convert oneself to another religion is legal; can such a right to convert extend to MNC enterprises, operating on commercial lines? It would be right and prudent to ban this organized marketing of religions by company-like multinational enterprise conversion missions offering the same product competitively under different brands. Dr T H Chowdary * Director : Center for Telecom Management & Studies Chairman : Pragna Bharati, Andhra Pradesh Fellow: Tata Consultancy Services & Satyam Computer Services Former: Information Technology Advisor: Government of Andhra Pradesh Chairman & Managing Director, Videsh Sanchar Nigam Ltd Plot No. 8, P&T Colony, Karkhana (Secunderabad), Hyderabad - 500 009. Phone : +91 (40) 2784-6137,6667-1191 (Off) & 2784-3121 (Res) Fax : +91 (40) 6667-1111, 2789-6103 (Off) E-Mail: hanuman.chowdary at tcs.com & thc at satyam.com http://sites.google.com/site/hindunow/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 11:38:55 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:38:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is Sister Alphonsa India's first woman saint ? Message-ID: <6353c690810182308i98d6a46pdab4569f58c7edfd@mail.gmail.com> *Not India's first woman saint* http://indiaview.wordpress.com/ Francois Gautier, Pioneer *Indian media went into a tizzy while covering the canonisation of Sister Alphonsa, an obscure nun, to prove its secular credentials! Indian journalists forget that this country has had other women saints too. * As a Frenchman, I was coached right from childhood that logic, what we in France call *cartesianism*, is the greatest gift given to man and that one should use one's reason to tread in life. Thus, I taught to my students in a Bangalore school of journalism, the SSCMS, that the first tool of a good reporter is to go by his or her own judgement on the ground, with the help of one's first-hand experience — and not go by second hand information: What your parents thought, what you have read in the newspapers, what your caste, religion, culture pushes you into… Yet in India, logic does not seem to apply to most of the media, especially when it is anything related to Hindus and Hinduism. One cannot, for instance, equate Muslim terrorists who blow up innocent civilians in market places all over India to angry ordinary Hindus who attack churches without killing anybody. We know that most of these communal incidents often involve persons of the same caste — Dalits and tribals — some of them converted to Christianity and some not. However reprehensible was the destruction of the Babri Masjid, no Muslim was killed in the process. Compare that with the 'vengeance' bombings of 1993 in Mumbai, which killed hundreds of innocent people, mostly Hindus. Yet Indian and Western journalists keep equating the two, or even showing the Babri Masjid destruction as the most horrible act of the two. How can you compare the Sangh Parivar with the Indian Mujahideen, a deadly terrorist organisation? How can you label Mr Narendra Modi a mass killer when actually it was ordinary middle class, or even Dalit Hindus, who went out into the streets in fury when 56 innocent people, many of them women and children, were burnt in a train? How can you lobby for the lifting of the ban on SIMI, an organisation which is suspected of having planted bombs in many Indian cities, killing hundreds of innocent people, while advocating a ban on the Bajrang Dal, which attacked some churches after an 84-year-old swami and his followers were brutally murdered? There is no logic in journalism in this country when it applies itself to minorities. Christians are supposedly only two per cent of the population in India, but look how last Sunday many major television channels showed live the canonisation ceremony of Sister Alphonsa, an obscure nun from Kerala and see how Union Minister Oscar Fernandes led an entire Indian delegation to the Vatican along with the Indian Ambassador. It would be impossible in England, for instance, which may have a two per cent Hindu minority, to have live coverage of a major Hindu ceremony, like the anointment of a new Shankaracharya. What were the 24×7 news channels, which seem to have deliberately chosen to highlight this non-event, trying to prove? That they are secular? Is this secularism? The headline of the story "India gets its first woman saint", run by many newspapers, both Indian and Western, is very misleading. *For India has never been short of saints.* The woman sage from over 3,000 years ago, *Maithreyi, Andal*, the Tamil saint from early in the first Millennium CE and *Akkamahadevi*, the 15th century saint from modern-day Karnataka, are but a few examples of women saints in India. What many publications failed to mention in the story is that this is the first woman Christian saint — not the first Indian woman saint. This statement is ok, when it comes, for instance, from the *BBC*, which always looks at India through the Christian prism (*BBC* ran a few months back an untrue and slanderous documentary on Auroville), but when it comes to the Indian media, it only shows the grave lack of grounding in Indian culture and history of most Indian journalists. *As a result, they suffer from an inferiority complex.* This inferiority complex, as expressed by television's live coverage of the canonisation of Sister Alphonsa, is a legacy of the British, who strove to show themselves as superior and Indian culture as inferior (and inheritor of the 'White Aryans', a totally false theory). *Is it not time to institute schools of journalism, both private and public, where not only logic will be taught, but where students shall be made aware of Indian history and of the greatness of Indian culture, so that when they go out to report, they will use their own judgement and become Indian journalists, with a little bit of feeling, pride and love for their own country?* Related Articles: India's Secular Media @ http://indowave.tripod.com/AntiHinduMedia.html What Made Hindus Angry @ http://ultracurrents.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-made-them-angry.html BBC's Propaganda @ http://globeonline.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/bbc-reporting-propagandist/ http://indiaview.wordpress.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 11:42:13 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:42:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism Message-ID: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com> The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … SECTION – I Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not permit any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord resides in him. Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any caste system or birth based caste system. Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those days as compared to other civilizations. It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only sometime in 1800 AD." Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and fraudulent methods. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 11:43:30 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:43:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati's murder: Are Christian militants Involved ? Message-ID: <6353c690810182313o5ffe4373p6ba6654485a22c17@mail.gmail.com> Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati's murder: Are Christian militants involved? (Editor's note: Read the last paragraph, which mentions about involvement of Christian militants ) Source: Daily Pioneer, August 25, 2008 Pioneer News service | Bhubaneswar • Orissa bandh today; schools, colleges to remain closed • Naveen announces judicial probe, ex-gratia Widespread anger was expressed throughout the State over the brutal killing of Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati and four of his associates. The VHP and Bajrang Dal activists burned tyres and blocked traffic in different parts of the State to ventilate their anger on the failure of the police to give protection to Swamji. He had lodged an FIR on the local police station that his life was under threat and had sought police protection. Within 26 hours of lodging the complaint, he and his disciples were killed at Jalespata Ashram under Tumudibandh block in Kandhamal district on Saturday night. Fearing a backlash, the Kandhamal district administration clamped curfew in Phulbani town and prohibitory orders under section 144 CrPC throughout the district. All borders of the district were sealed. However, defying the orders, disciples of the Swami took out the Swami's funeral procession to another ashram at Chakapada, which is nearly 100 km away from Jalespata Ashram. More than 10,000 mourners reportedly accompanied the funeral procession. The funeral procession went through Jalespata, Tumudibandh, Paramapanka, Baataguda and reached Baliguda at 3 pm. It was supposed to go through Nuaagaan, Sarangagada, Phiringia, Bisipada Chhak and Tikabali to reach his Karmabhumi Chakapada late in night. The people bid farewell to the departed souls with tears. People in Baliguda could not control their emotions and they even attacked the police and burnt a number of vehicles. Police had to resort to a mild lathi-charge to disperse the crowd. Reports reaching Bhubaneswar said the people were dead against the police inaction. VHP activists allegedly burnt down a Marshal jeep OR 07 G 5882 carrying Sisters at G Udayagiri. The Sisters were allowed to leave the vehicle, said sources. Similarly, hundreds of supporters of Swamiji were moving to Tumudibandh with agitated mood, where his body was kept for last darshan. In order to save its face, the district administration suspended the officer-in-charge of the Tumudibandh Police Station. However, it did not calm the anger of local people. They demanded that action should be taken against the District Collector and the SP. "Swamji had himself lodged the FIR. But the district administration could not react promptly to protect the precious lives," said Sudarshan Bhoi, a local of Tumudibandh area. Reacting over the issue, the VHP and the Bajrang Dal have called for a dawn-to-dusk Orissa bandh. The BJP State unit has announced to support the bandh. In a bid to avoid further violence, the Government has ordered closure of all schools and colleges on Monday. In order to take stock of the situation, Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik on Sunday morning convened a high-level meeting at the State Secretariat. "All efforts would be made to arrest the culprit," he said, adding that additional police force has been mobilised and combing operation is on to nab the culprit. Police sources said 20 platoons of police force and four companies of CRPF have been mobilised to the spot. Patnaik also ordered a judicial probe into the incident and announced that Rs 2 lakh ex-gratia would be given to the next of kin of the deceased. The situation in the tribal dominated Kandhamal district "is tense but under control" after the killing of the VHP activists last night by unidentified attackers, Kandhamal District Collector Krishan Kumar claimed. Meanwhile, a small thatched structure used as a prayer house was set afire by unidentified persons late on Saturday night at Tentulijhari in Sundargarh district, Inspector General of Police (Western Range) Pranabindu Acharya said. The police have arrested Pradesh Kumar Das, an employee of the World Vision, a Christian Charity, from Khadagpur while escaping from the district at Buguda. In another drive, two other persons Vikram Digal and William Digal have been arrested from the house of Lal Digal, a local militant Christian, from Nuasahi at Gunjibadi, Nuagaan. They have admitted to having joined a group of 28 other assailants. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 12:34:56 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:34:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: References: <955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <73eb60090810180701h203d180ata2d0e3fdde92d39d@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810181038l66b6d7dar18a206911c6c76f4@mail.gmail.com> <73eb60090810182132x463a93d5ja7efe1b77376f32b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810190004r1eee20d8md5eabaac3f13dbe5@mail.gmail.com> Akal ke andho ko, jitna samjao unke liye "foreign language" hai.... So they are best ignored.. On 10/19/08, Real Unreal wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Real Unreal > wrote: > > is aditya pandit poot kay lund pa abi dunda nahi pada hai > > jawan hai, do teen dili ki bilayan jaab panja gardan pa maar dangai, > > to bolna seekh jaya ga > > vasay parveen tagodia say milanay to jagta hi hoga, > > suna ha londoon ka bada shokeen hai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM, kirdar singh > wrote: > >> Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them > >> education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at > >> gun point in Orissa. > >> > >> You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system." > >> -- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON > >> > >> You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your > >> ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't > >> show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also > >> have to intentions to spoil your happiness. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >>> Kirdar ji, > >>> > >>> Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were > converted by > >>> Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They > were > >>> bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think > that is > >>> legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's. > >>> > >>> I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live > happily. > >>> > >>> Love > >>> Aditya Raj Kaul > >>> > >>> On 10/18/08, kirdar singh wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you > >>>> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he > >>>> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > Dear Kirdar Ji, > >>>> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening > account > >>>> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was > "Brahmin" : > >>>> one of the four castes of Hindus. > >>>> > Regards, > >>>> > Prabhakar > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> > From: kirdar singh > >>>> > To: Prabhakar Singh > >>>> > Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net > >>>> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with > >>>> caution. > >>>> > > >>>> > Prabhakar ji > >>>> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: > >>>> > > >>>> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use > of > >>>> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court > in > >>>> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu > >>>> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of > India > >>>> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible > >>>> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to > >>>> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" > >>>> > > >>>> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or > >>>> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political > >>>> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed > >>>> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to > popular > >>>> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a > derogatory > >>>> > manner as well. > >>>> > > >>>> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is > >>>> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in > English > >>>> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects > >>>> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king > >>>> > or mayor. > >>>> > > >>>> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its > >>>> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, > >>>> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its > >>>> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of > >>>> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and > early-twentieth > >>>> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were > >>>> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily > News, > >>>> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term > >>>> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary > >>>> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also > >>>> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer > >>>> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable > >>>> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe > >>>> > Lieberman. > >>>> > > >>>> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print > >>>> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the > >>>> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may > also > >>>> > be referred to as talking heads. > >>>> > > >>>> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on > >>>> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular > >>>> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His > >>>> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led > others, > >>>> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express > >>>> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] > >>>> > > >>>> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by > >>>> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in > fact > >>>> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or > >>>> > observations[3]. > >>>> > > >>>> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert > >>>> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as > >>>> > well. > >>>> > > >>>> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a > >>>> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will > describe > >>>> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, > >>>> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. > >>>> > > >>>> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: > >>>> > > >>>> > * Australia > >>>> > o Andrew Bolt > >>>> > o Phil Cleary > >>>> > o Germaine Greer > >>>> > o John Laws > >>>> > o Glenn Milne > >>>> > > >>>> > * Brazil > >>>> > o Olavo de Carvalho > >>>> > o Reinaldo Azevedo > >>>> > > >>>> > * Canada > >>>> > o Michael Coren > >>>> > > >>>> > * Chile > >>>> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce > >>>> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez > >>>> > o Patricio Navia > >>>> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic > >>>> > > >>>> > * Hong Kong, China > >>>> > o Ivan Choy > >>>> > > >>>> > * India > >>>> > o Cho Ramaswamy > >>>> > > >>>> > * Spain > >>>> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos > >>>> > o Iñaki Gabilondo > >>>> > o Luis del Olmo > >>>> > > >>>> > * United Kingdom > >>>> > o David Aaronovitch > >>>> > o Gary Lineker > >>>> > o Matthew Le Tissier > >>>> > o Tim Henman > >>>> > o Andy Gray > >>>> > o John Motson > >>>> > o Martin Tyler > >>>> > o Vanessa Feltz > >>>> > o Germaine Greer > >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens > >>>> > o Peter Hitchens > >>>> > o John McCririck > >>>> > o George Monbiot > >>>> > o Melanie Phillips > >>>> > > >>>> > * United States > >>>> > o Glenn Beck > >>>> > o Neal Boortz > >>>> > o Tucker Carlson > >>>> > o Stephen Colbert > >>>> > o Alan Colmes > >>>> > o Ann Coulter > >>>> > o Lou Dobbs > >>>> > o Roger Ebert > >>>> > o Al Franken > >>>> > o Nancy Grace > >>>> > o Sean Hannity > >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens > >>>> > o Ezra Klein > >>>> > o Rush Limbaugh > >>>> > o Rachel Maddow > >>>> > o Bill Maher > >>>> > o Michelle Malkin > >>>> > o Chris Matthews > >>>> > o Keith Olbermann > >>>> >o Bill O'Reilly > >>>> > o Joe Scarborough > >>>> > o Michael Savage > >>>> > o Mark Steyn > >>>> > o Jon Stewart > >>>> > > >>>> > Sports Pundits > >>>> > o Skip Bayless > >>>> > o Mike Francesa > >>>> > o Peter Gammons > >>>> > o Mike Golic > >>>> > o Mike Greenberg > >>>> > o Jay Mariotti > >>>> > o Woody Paige > >>>> > o Jim Rome > >>>> > o Chris Russo > >>>> > o Stephen A. Smith > >>>> > o Dick Vitale > >>>> > o Michael Wilbon > >>>> > o Tony Kornheiser > >>>> > o Lou Holtz > >>>> > o Keyman Ma > >>>> > > >>>> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to > >>>> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India > for > >>>> > the British. > >>>> > > >>>> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the > >>>> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted > >>>> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not > just > >>>> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their > empire > >>>> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set > >>>> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried > to > >>>> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region > >>>> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. > >>>> > > >>>> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of > the > >>>> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow > >>>> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying > team. > >>>> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, > realised > >>>> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from > >>>> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them > >>>> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, > >>>> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a > lama > >>>> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. > >>>> > > >>>> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make > their > >>>> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make > >>>> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what > looked > >>>> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 > >>>> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a > >>>> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist > >>>> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh > Rawat > >>>> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious > co-travelers: > >>>> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel > >>>> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually > this > >>>> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of > >>>> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite > >>>> > that during their travels. > >>>> > > >>>> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned > >>>> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of > >>>> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also > received > >>>> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them > >>>> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels > they > >>>> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with > >>>> > remarkable precision. > >>>> > > >>>> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed > as > >>>> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, > British > >>>> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral > traditions, > >>>> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. > The > >>>> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the > >>>> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu > law. > >>>> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some > >>>> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing > >>>> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of > the > >>>> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their > >>>> > official use. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without > being a > >>>> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only > >>>> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only > singular > >>>> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who > are > >>>> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> >> From: inder salim > >>>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >>>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM > >>>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with > >>>> caution. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Dear Bhat sahib > >>>> >> > >>>> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. > >>>> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in > place > >>>> >> democratic rule of laws'. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> now i quote you again, > >>>> >> > >>>> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, > investigation, > >>>> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be > >>>> >> violent. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you > >>>> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i > >>>> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one > >>>> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or > >>>> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins > the > >>>> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) > >>>> >> > >>>> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the > other > >>>> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. > >>>> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear > that > >>>> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his > >>>> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his > >>>> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied > that > >>>> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, > >>>> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because > Hinduism > > >>>> >> can notbe defined as such. > > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking > of > >>>> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? > >>>> >> > >>>> >> warmly > >>>> >> is > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat > >>>> >> wrote: > >>>> >>> Inder salim > >>>> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with > >>>> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the > thoughts > >>>> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in > the > >>>> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of > >>>> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens > of > >>>> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation > with > >>>> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of > >>>> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with > you > >>>> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin > malik, > >>>> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside > to > >>>> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the > area they > >>>> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of > laws as > >>>> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are > these > >>>> rotten > >>>> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., > >>>> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by > >>>> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms > that > >>>> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic > kings > >>>> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did > not > >>>> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a > nation, > >>>> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the > >>>> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that > small > >>>> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens > out of > >>>> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected > and > >>>> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the > society > >>>> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed > other > >>>> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, > better > >>>> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left > idealogy.? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are > tolerent > >>>> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India > to bash > >>>> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be > taken > >>>> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote > banks > >>>> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have > understood how > >>>> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of > the > >>>> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush > attacking > >>>> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass > destruction, > >>>> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as > the > >>>> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim > followers of > >>>> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each > other > >>>> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is > offering them > >>>> to distribute the butter equally for them.! > >>>> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in > our > >>>> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind > is > >>>> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very > personal, > >>>> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It > is > >>>> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different > faith, > >>>> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner > votes > >>>> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to > his > >>>> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or > gowda who > >>>> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen > must > >>>> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a > >>>> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, > what > >>>> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the > nation, > >>>> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care > facilities.? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true > that > >>>> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the > british > >>>> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that > a > >>>> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to > be > >>>> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all > muslims in > >>>> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we > remained > >>>> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only > courts had > >>>> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and > the > >>>> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is > a > >>>> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free > India, > >>>> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of > appeasement, > >>>> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any > >>>> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the > violence, > >>>> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as > a to > >>>> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify > any > >>>> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is > when > >>>> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are > burnt, or > >>>> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers > are > >>>> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, > >>>> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is > bound > >>>> to be violent. > >>>> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very > >>>> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very > civilised.? > >>>> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of > others, > >>>> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most > >>>> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are > brain > >>>> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from > all > >>>> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational > thoughts > >>>> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all > faithsand > >>>> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but > >>>> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head > mistress > >>>> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next > week, but > >>>> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I > prefer to > >>>> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on > the list > >>>> made one > >>>> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! > Messenger. > >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> -- > >>>> >> > >>>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >>>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >> List archive: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >>>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >> List archive: > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >>>> > > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 12:44:24 2008 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:44:24 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. In-Reply-To: <6353c690810190004r1eee20d8md5eabaac3f13dbe5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <461801.44943.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> akal ke andhe nahi akal ke dushman! when they can't argue, can't prove their point logically, they start abusing others start using filthy language.   don't waste your time in waking them up as they are 'pretending to sleep'  vedavati --- On Sun, 19/10/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: From: Aditya Raj Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution.. To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, 19 October, 2008, 3:04 PM Akal ke andho ko, jitna samjao unke liye "foreign language" hai.... So they are best ignored.. On 10/19/08, Real Unreal wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Real Unreal > wrote: > > is aditya pandit poot kay lund pa abi dunda nahi pada hai > > jawan hai, do teen dili ki bilayan jaab panja gardan pa maar dangai, > > to bolna seekh jaya ga > > vasay parveen tagodia say milanay to jagta hi hoga, > > suna ha londoon ka bada shokeen hai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM, kirdar singh > wrote: > >> Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them > >> education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at > >> gun point in Orissa. > >> > >> You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system." > >> -- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON > >> > >> You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your > >> ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't > >> show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also > >> have to intentions to spoil your happiness. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >>> Kirdar ji, > >>> > >>> Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were > converted by > >>> Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They > were > >>> bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think > that is > >>> legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's. > >>> > >>> I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live > happily. > >>> > >>> Love > >>> Aditya Raj Kaul > >>> > >>> On 10/18/08, kirdar singh wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you > >>>> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he > >>>> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > Dear Kirdar Ji, > >>>> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening > account > >>>> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was > "Brahmin" : > >>>> one of the four castes of Hindus. > >>>> > Regards, > >>>> > Prabhakar > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> > From: kirdar singh > >>>> > To: Prabhakar Singh > >>>> > Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net > >>>> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with > >>>> caution. > >>>> > > >>>> > Prabhakar ji > >>>> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: > >>>> > > >>>> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use > of > >>>> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court > in > >>>> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu > >>>> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of > India > >>>> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible > >>>> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to > >>>> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" > >>>> > > >>>> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or > >>>> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political > >>>> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed > >>>> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to > popular > >>>> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a > derogatory > >>>> > manner as well. > >>>> > > >>>> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is > >>>> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in > English > >>>> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects > >>>> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king > >>>> > or mayor. > >>>> > > >>>> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its > >>>> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, > >>>> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its > >>>> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of > >>>> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and > early-twentieth > >>>> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were > >>>> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily > News, > >>>> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term > >>>> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary > >>>> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also > >>>> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer > >>>> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable > >>>> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe > >>>> > Lieberman. > >>>> > > >>>> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print > >>>> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the > >>>> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may > also > >>>> > be referred to as talking heads. > >>>> > > >>>> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on > >>>> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular > >>>> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His > >>>> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led > others, > >>>> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express > >>>> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] > >>>> > > >>>> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by > >>>> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in > fact > >>>> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or > >>>> > observations[3]. > >>>> > > >>>> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert > >>>> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as > >>>> > well. > >>>> > > >>>> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a > >>>> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will > describe > >>>> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, > >>>> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. > >>>> > > >>>> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: > >>>> > > >>>> > * Australia > >>>> > o Andrew Bolt > >>>> > o Phil Cleary > >>>> > o Germaine Greer > >>>> > o John Laws > >>>> > o Glenn Milne > >>>> > > >>>> > * Brazil > >>>> > o Olavo de Carvalho > >>>> > o Reinaldo Azevedo > >>>> > > >>>> > * Canada > >>>> > o Michael Coren > >>>> > > >>>> > * Chile > >>>> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce > >>>> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez > >>>> > o Patricio Navia > >>>> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic > >>>> > > >>>> > * Hong Kong, China > >>>> > o Ivan Choy > >>>> > > >>>> > * India > >>>> > o Cho Ramaswamy > >>>> > > >>>> > * Spain > >>>> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos > >>>> > o Iñaki Gabilondo > >>>> > o Luis del Olmo > >>>> > > >>>> > * United Kingdom > >>>> > o David Aaronovitch > >>>> > o Gary Lineker > >>>> > o Matthew Le Tissier > >>>> > o Tim Henman > >>>> > o Andy Gray > >>>> > o John Motson > >>>> > o Martin Tyler > >>>> > o Vanessa Feltz > >>>> > o Germaine Greer > >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens > >>>> > o Peter Hitchens > >>>> > o John McCririck > >>>> > o George Monbiot > >>>> > o Melanie Phillips > >>>> > > >>>> > * United States > >>>> > o Glenn Beck > >>>> > o Neal Boortz > >>>> > o Tucker Carlson > >>>> > o Stephen Colbert > >>>> > o Alan Colmes > >>>> > o Ann Coulter > >>>> > o Lou Dobbs > >>>> > o Roger Ebert > >>>> > o Al Franken > >>>> > o Nancy Grace > >>>> > o Sean Hannity > >>>> > o Christopher Hitchens > >>>> > o Ezra Klein > >>>> > o Rush Limbaugh > >>>> > o Rachel Maddow > >>>> > o Bill Maher > >>>> > o Michelle Malkin > >>>> > o Chris Matthews > >>>> > o Keith Olbermann > >>>> >o Bill O'Reilly > >>>> > o Joe Scarborough > >>>> > o Michael Savage > >>>> > o Mark Steyn > >>>> > o Jon Stewart > >>>> > > >>>> > Sports Pundits > >>>> > o Skip Bayless > >>>> > o Mike Francesa > >>>> > o Peter Gammons > >>>> > o Mike Golic > >>>> > o Mike Greenberg > >>>> > o Jay Mariotti > >>>> > o Woody Paige > >>>> > o Jim Rome > >>>> > o Chris Russo > >>>> > o Stephen A. Smith > >>>> > o Dick Vitale > >>>> > o Michael Wilbon > >>>> > o Tony Kornheiser > >>>> > o Lou Holtz > >>>> > o Keyman Ma > >>>> > > >>>> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to > >>>> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India > for > >>>> > the British. > >>>> > > >>>> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the > >>>> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted > >>>> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not > just > >>>> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their > empire > >>>> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set > >>>> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried > to > >>>> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region > >>>> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. > >>>> > > >>>> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of > the > >>>> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow > >>>> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying > team. > >>>> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, > realised > >>>> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from > >>>> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them > >>>> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, > >>>> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a > lama > >>>> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. > >>>> > > >>>> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make > their > >>>> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make > >>>> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what > looked > >>>> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 > >>>> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a > >>>> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist > >>>> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh > Rawat > >>>> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious > co-travelers: > >>>> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel > >>>> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually > this > >>>> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of > >>>> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite > >>>> > that during their travels. > >>>> > > >>>> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned > >>>> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of > >>>> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also > received > >>>> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them > >>>> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels > they > >>>> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with > >>>> > remarkable precision. > >>>> > > >>>> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed > as > >>>> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, > British > >>>> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral > traditions, > >>>> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. > The > >>>> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the > >>>> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu > law. > >>>> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some > >>>> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing > >>>> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of > the > >>>> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their > >>>> > official use. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without > being a > >>>> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only > >>>> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only > singular > >>>> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who > are > >>>> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> ----- Original Message ---- > >>>> >> From: inder salim > >>>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >>>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM > >>>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with > >>>> caution. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Dear Bhat sahib > >>>> >> > >>>> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. > >>>> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in > place > >>>> >> democratic rule of laws'. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> now i quote you again, > >>>> >> > >>>> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, > investigation, > >>>> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be > >>>> >> violent. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you > >>>> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i > >>>> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one > >>>> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or > >>>> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins > the > >>>> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) > >>>> >> > >>>> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the > other > >>>> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. > >>>> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear > that > >>>> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his > >>>> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his > >>>> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied > that > >>>> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, > >>>> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because > Hinduism > > >>>> >> can notbe defined as such. > > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking > of > >>>> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? > >>>> >> > >>>> >> warmly > >>>> >> is > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat > >>>> >> wrote: > >>>> >>> Inder salim > >>>> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with > >>>> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the > thoughts > >>>> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in > the > >>>> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of > >>>> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens > of > >>>> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation > with > >>>> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of > >>>> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with > you > >>>> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin > malik, > >>>> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside > to > >>>> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the > area they > >>>> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of > laws as > >>>> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are > these > >>>> rotten > >>>> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., > >>>> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by > >>>> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms > that > >>>> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic > kings > >>>> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did > not > >>>> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a > nation, > >>>> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the > >>>> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that > small > >>>> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens > out of > >>>> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected > and > >>>> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the > society > >>>> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed > other > >>>> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, > better > >>>> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left > idealogy.? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are > tolerent > >>>> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India > to bash > >>>> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be > taken > >>>> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote > banks > >>>> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have > understood how > >>>> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of > the > >>>> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush > attacking > >>>> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass > destruction, > >>>> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as > the > >>>> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim > followers of > >>>> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each > other > >>>> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is > offering them > >>>> to distribute the butter equally for them.! > >>>> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in > our > >>>> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind > is > >>>> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very > personal, > >>>> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It > is > >>>> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different > faith, > >>>> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner > votes > >>>> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to > his > >>>> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or > gowda who > >>>> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen > must > >>>> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a > >>>> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, > what > >>>> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the > nation, > >>>> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care > facilities.? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true > that > >>>> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the > british > >>>> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that > a > >>>> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to > be > >>>> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all > muslims in > >>>> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we > remained > >>>> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only > courts had > >>>> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and > the > >>>> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is > a > >>>> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free > India, > >>>> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of > appeasement, > >>>> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any > >>>> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the > violence, > >>>> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as > a to > >>>> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify > any > >>>> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is > when > >>>> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are > burnt, or > >>>> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers > are > >>>> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, > >>>> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is > bound > >>>> to be violent. > >>>> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very > >>>> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very > civilised.? > >>>> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of > others, > >>>> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most > >>>> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are > brain > >>>> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from > all > >>>> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational > thoughts > >>>> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all > faithsand > >>>> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but > >>>> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head > mistress > >>>> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next > week, but > >>>> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I > prefer to > >>>> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on > the list > >>>> made one > >>>> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! > Messenger. > >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> -- > >>>> >> > >>>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >>>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >> List archive: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >>>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >> List archive: > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > >>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > >>>> > > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 13:00:45 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 00:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Request for Unsubscribing Message-ID: <913983.36964.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Administrator/Moderator, I have tried several times to unsubscribe from this forum through your website but failed to do so because it is not responding at all.I have also made request to you earlier to remove my name but it has not been done so far.I do not want to receive these abusive mails which are also read by my family members.I shall be grayeful to you if you kindly spare us from this embarrassment for nothing. With kind regards, Prabhakar Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 12:34:15 2008 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:34:15 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? Message-ID: <930722.61878.qm@web94710.mail.in2.yahoo.com> i express my views i never use filthy language for your kind information   vedavati --- On Sat, 18/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, 18 October, 2008, 5:07 PM Dear Crybabies, This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at anyone who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called Chanchal a 'moron'. 'Moron' 'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar is "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth that routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar and radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why you are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great deal about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in sexist, racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the conversation in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should not be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha called Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus do not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary knowledge of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: Chanchal on Muslim women: "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four is from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand possesses..." "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.." Chanchal on Hindu Women: "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will ever try to even look at her even in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" Chanchal on Indian History: "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name of Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and declared that it is their property.... Chanchal on International relations: "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." Chanchal on Art: "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it to the world)..." Chanchal on Sex: "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." Chanchal on Secularism: "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as long as Hindus are in majority." "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - all are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious we are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to immediately apologise. Warmly Aarti On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are in > trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on > part > of so called List Administrators.. > > So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. > > On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > > It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making > > personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy > > language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called > knowledge > > and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other > > members freely at their will by calling them "moron", "fool","senseless", > > "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System > > Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people > from > > this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to > unsubscribe. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Aarti Sethi > > To: Prabhakar Singh > > Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > > > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, > > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But > > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. > You > > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, > then I > > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out > on > > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, > then > > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say > > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than > > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, > > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. > > > > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. > > Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it > > would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh < > > prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > > Prabhakar > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Chanchal, you moron, > > > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > > religion. > > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > > There is nothing wrong with that. > > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > > depths of your ignorance. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > India is secular: > > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > > have that. > > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > > own motherland > > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "Javed" > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > > Engineer. > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > > > From: Javed > > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > > as linguistic. > > > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > > articulate and loud. > > > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > > just look on. > > > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > > license to function freely. > > > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > > never before. > > > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > > 'shameful'. > > > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > > Hitler. > > > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > > terrorists'. > > > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger..yahoo.com/download.php From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 13:25:10 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:25:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Oct 20: Lalon Statue Protest Meeting Message-ID: Please join if in Dhaka. >From Faruk WASIF: JONO SHANKSKRITI MANCHA , a forum of radical activists, poets, writers, musicians, academics, researchers, journalists, is going to organize a protest meeting Monday, 20th october,4.30 pm at Dhaka University, TSC sarakdweep. Protest removal of Lalon/Baul statues from ZIA Airport, under pressure from Khelafat Andolon. From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 13:58:56 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:58:56 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Inder salim and fascist posts.? Message-ID: <139072.4358.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Inder Salim,   your reply to my post was both interesting and dealt with the way untruth is propagated,by secular fascist,  when you attribute that " India belongs to hindus" as per the post, LET IT BE CLEAR TO YOU  and all in the reader-list, India is for all indian citizens, who accept Indian Constitution which we gave to ourselves, indians accept the constitution in letter and spirit, and India belongs to all indians irrespective of their faiths, as the very start of the preamble is, secular democratic nation that is India. But the fact and truth is India and its citizens admire those who abide by the constitution as it is expected of them, not those who do not accept the constitution of India, but use it for the exercise of the rights enshrined in it, like the separatists of kashmir.! tHESE SEPARATISTS KILL AND USE VIOLENCE FOR THE ISLAMIC RULE,  you support them with ghalib quotes, as it is observed all these months by  all of us, and you have a mutual admiration society to back up these violent thoughts of hate with sugar-coat of love.?   India does not belong to those who do not respect the constitution of India, like a italian who did not take citizenship for full sixteen years, who went to italian embassy when her mother in law was victim of her own acts of creating a terror in Punjab by dismissal of democratically elected governance of Punjab, only because gai aur bachda was rejected by the electorate.! India does not belong to such traitors who make laws and insert them in scedules where the judiciary can not review the laws of caste appeasements, because such act is discrimination, not fair rule of laws.In democratic life, the rule of laws apply to every citizen, no sections of society can be treated unfairly because of the birth, faith and region. Every citizen is assured of fair rule of laws and good governance and such freedom of just rule is the need for democracy to thrive.  Every autonomous institution is being weaked from inside by these termites, such do not have any national interest but only self interest, to them India does not tolerate any more, and to say that when criminals when do indulge in criminal acts, law keepers are there to apprehend them, investigate and collaborate evidence and prosecute them, only then law abiding citizens will have respect on judicial system. With judges fudging the reports and judgements for few dollars more like a Bhalla with 7 lakhs purchasing 5 crore property and getting promotion for it, like 34 judges after having been named in the PF scam, not even upholding the dignity of office by resigning, such are disrespecting the intellect of the nation.    When judiciary fails to adjudicate the crimes for years with active and passive connivance of judicial officers, read, lawyers, "criminal" ones, the likes of RK Anand and IU Khan, then citizens do have a feeling of loss as the very institution on which they have highest faith is faling them, it does not matter which faith the traitors belong, but they areeating at the fabric of nation and its entity.   When separatists cry foul for the separate kashmir , when other citizens of the free india have willingly belonged to the nation, accepting the constitution of India, these separatists want freedom and rights enshrined in the indian constitution but do not accept it. You are supporting them like a Arundhati roy and the other  a supreme court lawyer who does not even know the process of law to move magistrate court to meet the detainees, instead make drama of a dharna in front of the police station for tv cameras.?   Even though my sentiments say no to death penalty, such deviant behaviour where the nation is undermined only death is fit for these traitors. If nathuram Godse shot dead mahatma, he did not run away, faced the trial, said he would kill again if any one like mahatma sold the national interest, wherea Afjal guru hid behing he lawyer wih fat rolls of  money.Bhagath Singh went to gallows with smile on his face, not the modern terrorists who are in business for money and faith., who run away and hide. Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 14:06:36 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:06:36 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Caste conudrum Message-ID: <80189.70938.qm@web94905.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Kirdar paaji, it depends on the vocation that individual takes up, if he is a tailor, he is tailor, if he is goldsmith, he is goldsmith.! Please do remeber the very sikh was from hindu families when the families gave their son to guru to raise an army to defend the families from invaders wrath.! each sikh came from different families of every vocation, and became warrior, kshatriya. Ofcourse the latter written Thaparite historians do not like this history.?    All humans come in to this world from the same universal hole, they can be learned, or defenders or farmers, their vocation gives them the status in society.  Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 14:35:46 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" Message-ID: <426527.86732.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Tapas, Thanks a lot for all the help so far.Kindly help me further by getting me out of this list. In brief, I am very passionate about my roots,origin,parents,alma mater,nation,religion,heritage etc. and I am very proud of it.I can not tolerate anybody touching them.There are people who are more than willing to comprise or even take pride in abusing or insulting them in the name reasoning or their perverse intellectualism. With warm regards, Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: Tapas Ray To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 8:22:50 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" Dear Prabhakar and Lalit, Prabhakar, as you were my batchmate at one of the IITs and I am the one who introduced you to this list in the context of a list member's abusive attack on our common alma mater, I must confess to being a little concerned about offending you with this post, in which I shall be contradicting your argument. Hope you will take it not personally but in the spirit of a reasoned conversation about an extremely divisive issue that is vitally important to us both and to every Indian, and indirectly important to the rest of the world. Although I simply cannot afford to take the time to read Reader-list posts at this time, much less post comments myself, I am now writing specifically with you in mind, because I would like you, as my batchmate, to know what I think is correct and why I think so. Apologies in advance if I take a long time to respond to your, Lalit's or anyone else's response to this post. That said, what I understand from a quick scan of the two comments posted by the two of you (below) is that (a) Hindus are treated shabbily in India, (b) Hindu extremism is a reaction to Muslim extremism in Kashmir, and (c) someone with a Muslim name (partly in the case of Samina) should not criticize views held by Hindus - a *section* of Hindus in this case, as your views are not held by all Hindus as you can see on this list, as well as in the election results of the last decade or more. I think those Hindus who believe in argument (a) need to rethink the issue in light of concrete socio-economic indicators, such as levels of employment, education, etc., which are far lower for Muslims as far as I know (though cannot cite figures at this time) and social practices that result from a view - held to this day by what I believe is a large section of Hindus - of Muslims as being alien and socially unacceptable. A linguistic expression of this is the practice of referring to Muslims in the words for which Radhikarajen was banned from this list. It would be inappropriate to mention here the very common Hindi word of the street which Radhikarajen translated into English, and which I am sure most if not all Indians on this list are already familiar with. Argument (b) is ahistorical in my opinion. Radical Hinduism in fact preceded not only radical Islamism but even Jinnah-style Islamic politics. I pointed this out to Radhikarajen in the course of a prolonged conversation. Please excuse me for being unable to reproduce it here, but it can be found in the archive. As for argument (c), I think one's affiliation is irrelevant to his or her right to criticize something. The argument that someone with a Hindu name should not criticize the views of some Hindus or even Hinduism itself, goes against modern values, which since the Enlightenment has taught us to be rational, i.e., judge everything by reason and nothing else. There are different kinds of rationality, of course, and Enlightenment rationality has had some very negative consequences, but I am referring specifically to that aspect of it which taught Christians to criticize and challenge the church in Europe and Indian Hindus to criticize and challenge Hinduism in the "Indian/Bengal Renaissance". The first led to an arguably better Christianity (in most denominations) without excommunication, inquisition, burning at the stake, etc. The second led to an arguably better Hinduism *as a whole* without sati (with exceptions that take place even now), virulent casteism (except for certain regions in which caste-based killings and massacres still take place now and then), ban on widow remarriage, etc., and a kind of liberalism in Indian society as a whole, reflected in the Constitution, that would have been unthinkable before it - and aspects of which, such as the ban on sati, the already enlightened British rulers initially opposed on political considerations. The question now is, are we ready to renounce those values? Personally, I consider myself perfectly within my rights to criticize not only my own religion but also my ethnic group, city, state, country, alma mater and so on, right down to my own parents. Best, Tapas Prabhakar Singh wrote: > I agree with you Lalit ! > One should not try to belittle Hindus in India where their population is more than 80%.A majority population should not be treated so shabbily like this by the minorities.Samina should think about it before blaming Hindus for everything.If her hate for Hindus is so intense she should correct her name first and remove Mishra from it.It appears that this forum is dedicated for creating Hindu-Muslim divide and hatred in the society.We should have some restraint while writing because we are responsible to the society and the nation as a whole.Try to integrate not divide. > Regards, > Prabhakar > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Lalit Ambardar > To: Samina Mishra ; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 11:54:34 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Being Muslim in "India Today" > > One wonders why does your ( it is not directed at any individual,please- it is all those who flaunt their so called self acquired secular credentials only selectively) clock stop at the demolition of that disputed dilapidated structure in Ayodhya ?Come December 6, you have every body writing obituaries to the demolished structure.This dispute has a history. > > If only you had cared to know & speak about how kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists roamed freely in the streets of Kashmir & selectively targetted hapless Hindu Pandits in 1989-90 forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. World continues to remain silent as the Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country. The secular activism also went dumb when brazen intolerance was displayed in Srinagar streets recently against allotment of a mere 100 acres of land for the development of temporary facilities along the arduous Amarnath pilgrimage route at those uninhabitable heights. > Similarly  no concern is shown for those credulous wailing mothers,orphans,widows whose  dear ones continue to fall prey to  pan islamic indoctrination & the  mindless bloody violent movement that seeks secession of Muslim majority Kashmir valley from  secular india. Terror commanders who self admittedly brought in weapons from across the borders & founded 'gun' culture in the valley have been allowed to wear the of politicians' masks,  courtesy the self acclaimed secularists. It was India Today that hosted one such pan Islamist terror commander as a panelist along with who & who of Indian elite in their convention held in March this year- according him international celebrity status. There wasn't any uproar. Only poor Kashmiri Hindu Pandit refugees protested outside the venue-they were lathicharged & hauled up by the police and of course it did not become a news( the protest & the police action that followed). > > To suggest that Muslim- ness of thousands of believers can be preserved only in madrassas sounds a bit absurd. Let the community come out of the ghettos, be part of the main stream & you will see the integration. And it is happening, in spite of the attempts to keep the community in the self pitying mode perpetually.Look at the support the community has extended to the police in Maharashtra in apprehending the suspects.It is important to understand that there is a problem of extreme pan Islamism inspired indoctrination & it needs to be addressed. By continuing to remain in denying mode we are only increasing the vulnerability. That young Bangluru born aero space engineer did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow to avenge some perceived injustice back home. > > And by the way where else than in India the Hindu traditions are expected to be preserved - not in Arabia or Europe certainly. > There is definitely no ban on Eid celebrations in schools. Where ever there are mixed neighborhoods you will find bonhomie. > Even x-mass & new year are celebrated in schools....& there should be no reason to intentially avoid celebrating Eid.. there are no qualms about the valentine even. > > Muslims are equal shareholders of India as Hindus & others are & it will be blasphemous to differentiate contributions in the nation building process.Let us stop being parochial & selective. > Regards all > LA > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 15:37:27 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 15:37:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Inder salim and fascist posts.? In-Reply-To: <139072.4358.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <139072.4358.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810190307k4bc4ba93l39652186e76f30c5@mail.gmail.com> dear Rajerdra thanks for this long response. i see, we agree on many things, but you think i ( inder salim ) a termite, and you ( rajendra bhat ) as a precious chandan wood. anyway, i can see you dont admire my way of quoting Ghalib, that is ok, there are many who dont know anything about this great soul. no worry. you can ignore my tastes. i dont smoke by the way, we both agree that Bhagat singh was a great freedom fighter, but for British nation he still is/was a terrorist. And dont tell me that British are fascists. A lot many indian are proud to be part of British society. True, there are not thinking terrorist any more, which i regret. yes, the constitution of india. we all are governed by it. But, for those who are not the beneficiary of the system, like you, like me, they will ask for its validity. they would try to melt its soul which is full of iron now. Recently Chief Justice of India openly said that there corrupt judges and we need to weed them out. We are both here, and i predict that not a single judge will be thrown out. may be you are optimist, i am not , in this case at least. The whole political system in india is basically serving a huge middle class, who are madly driven by pursuits of money, whatever the means. We dont see any fault with our corrupt living standards. come Dipawali, or Giftawali ? ( has indian constituion anything against thise metamorphoses of festival of lights to patakha and giftawali day) Now please dont remind me that i dont see any faults in Idd or Christmas. They are not different. We are basically insensitive towards millions of opressed in our indian system of living. And yet, India is Shining, for Advani and co. Let them be, after all Hindu identity is sucessfully translating into votes. who cares. And the constitution of india has no trouble with that. and yet, people like me, who dont want to be identified as Hindus or Muslims are simply out of place. time for you to celebrate. This constitution of india, can be amended, in the parliament. but who, these very representatives of india who are representing their own interest than anybody else's. ? Women have almost disappeared from public domain. Muslims are feeling more insecure than they were under Nehru's India. Christian are running for their life in orrisa. Sikhs were killed in 1984. Kashmiri pandits were driven out from their homes. Needless to say how security forces, police and other agencies treat people in North East and Kashmir. Are our great naionalists in Delhi ignorant of what is going on, i beleive, that they actually design these games in their high offices. Pity, you dont question that, but discover a fascist in me. i guess, they all know that we are fighting each other, and that we stand humbly with folded hands as and when they pass. They are they, and this poor inder salim is a fucking ass hole, listening to these rants. now if you wish you too can join spiting spree with others. i will keep my face similing, i promise. we all know how New Delhi played games with representatives of kashmir during all these years. even if we forget that why there is something called LOC between India and Pakistan. where is the language in indian constitution that can express the kashmir of 1947 under Hari Singh. i am in no way representing kashmiri people's sentiments. i am living in india, and that is my birth right, but please dont suggest people like me to leave india, simply because we question. and why are you afraid to answer. dont you think how mighty is india ? i know, that is why i feel it deserves to be questioned. There is a scope for tremendous change, but alas, we give too much of leverage to Right wing politics. You dont need to be a leftists but a rationalist, a simple human being with a heart that can feel the pain of the other. This other is not alien to you. We have an other inside each one of us. in our families, within friends, in neighbourhood, everywhere. Do we need to be so arrogant that we label a person as fascist so easily. finally, why dont we think about environmental problems which need to be dealth collectively. love is On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 1:58 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > Inder Salim, > > your reply to my post was both interesting and dealt with the way untruth is propagated,by secular fascist, when you attribute that " India belongs to hindus" as per the post, LET IT BE CLEAR TO YOU and all in the reader-list, India is for all indian citizens, who accept Indian Constitution which we gave to ourselves, indians accept the constitution in letter and spirit, and India belongs to all indians irrespective of their faiths, as the very start of the preamble is, secular democratic nation that is India. But the fact and truth is India and its citizens admire those who abide by the constitution as it is expected of them, not those who do not accept the constitution of India, but use it for the exercise of the rights enshrined in it, like the separatists of kashmir.! tHESE SEPARATISTS KILL AND USE VIOLENCE FOR THE ISLAMIC RULE, you support them with ghalib quotes, as it is observed all these months by all of us, and you have a mutual > admiration society to back up these violent thoughts of hate with sugar-coat of love.? > > India does not belong to those who do not respect the constitution of India, like a italian who did not take citizenship for full sixteen years, who went to italian embassy when her mother in law was victim of her own acts of creating a terror in Punjab by dismissal of democratically elected governance of Punjab, only because gai aur bachda was rejected by the electorate.! > > India does not belong to such traitors who make laws and insert them in scedules where the judiciary can not review the laws of caste appeasements, because such act is discrimination, not fair rule of laws.In democratic life, the rule of laws apply to every citizen, no sections of society can be treated unfairly because of the birth, faith and region. Every citizen is assured of fair rule of laws and good governance and such freedom of just rule is the need for democracy to thrive. > > Every autonomous institution is being weaked from inside by these termites, such do not have any national interest but only self interest, to them India does not tolerate any more, and to say that when criminals when do indulge in criminal acts, law keepers are there to apprehend them, investigate and collaborate evidence and prosecute them, only then law abiding citizens will have respect on judicial system. With judges fudging the reports and judgements for few dollars more like a Bhalla with 7 lakhs purchasing 5 crore property and getting promotion for it, like 34 judges after having been named in the PF scam, not even upholding the dignity of office by resigning, such are disrespecting the intellect of the nation. > > When judiciary fails to adjudicate the crimes for years with active and passive connivance of judicial officers, read, lawyers, "criminal" ones, the likes of RK Anand and IU Khan, then citizens do have a feeling of loss as the very institution on which they have highest faith is faling them, it does not matter which faith the traitors belong, but they areeating at the fabric of nation and its entity. > > When separatists cry foul for the separate kashmir , when other citizens of the free india have willingly belonged to the nation, accepting the constitution of India, these separatists want freedom and rights enshrined in the indian constitution but do not accept it. You are supporting them like a Arundhati roy and the other a supreme court lawyer who does not even know the process of law to move magistrate court to meet the detainees, instead make drama of a dharna in front of the police station for tv cameras.? > > Even though my sentiments say no to death penalty, such deviant behaviour where the nation is undermined only death is fit for these traitors. If nathuram Godse shot dead mahatma, he did not run away, faced the trial, said he would kill again if any one like mahatma sold the national interest, wherea Afjal guru hid behing he lawyer wih fat rolls of money.Bhagath Singh went to gallows with smile on his face, not the modern terrorists who are in business for money and faith., who run away and hide. > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 18:03:09 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 18:03:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] within List: spitting in Literature Message-ID: <47e122a70810190533m3017cb30h99995f52e789e36d@mail.gmail.com> Dear all As we all know, within the Sarai reader List, there is a gentle man whose name is Aditya Raj kaul who 'spits' on my thinking, and who continues to spit on me even after I tried to know the reason. Although his likeminded friends are silent on the issue, but he is certainly not without alone in desire to spit on me. I tried to find ways to understand the history and tradition of spitting in our culture. Lal Ded of ancient Kahsmir, came to my mind first, but unfortunately he found me comparing myself with the great spiritual saint. Now my mind goes to literature. I found this 'spitting' in Jean Genet's master piece in The Miracle of The Rose, entirely in a different sense. Again, it is not my aim to compare the situations, but I want to share what things 'spitting' can trigger. For example, when Oscar Wilde was arrested, people spat on him, which he remembered painfully every hour of the each day in the prison. I am keen to know, what else it can trigger in others minds, but, right now, here is the passage from the great Novel: Page 255-257 I TAKE THE SUFFERING UPON MYSELF AND I SPEAK……. ' The colony then became one of the most agonizing dens of hell. It remained sunny for the flowers, foliage and bees, but it contained evil. Every tree, flower and bee, the blue sky, the lawn, became props of an infernal place and site. The scents remained scents and the pure air just as pure, but evil was in them. They became dangerous. I was in the centre of a moral hell whose purpose was my torment. Van Roy came up to me with a rather casual air and a faint smile on his lips Pointing to the fr end of the yard, he said : " all right, get going " ' my lips were dry. Without answering, I walked ahead and, without being told, stood against the back wall, the one facing the latrines. >From there we could not be seen by those who were playing in front of the cottage under the super-vision of the head of the family, and they must have been given order to keep away during the entire recreation period. When I arrived, the seven big shots, who were standing with their hands in their pockets, engaged in discussion, stopped talking. Van Roy cried out in a joyoung tone: " here we go, boyd ! fifty feet away " ' He placed himself in front of me, at the said distance, and yelled: " open your mug, you bitch " I dit not move. The big shots laughed. I dared not look at Divers, but I felt he was as excited as the others. Van Roy yelled again: " you going to open that dirty mug of yours " ' I opened my mouth. " wider " ' he came up to me and spread my jaws with his steel grip. I stayed that way. He took his distance again, leaned over a bit to the right, aimed, and spat into my mouth. An almost unconscious movement of deglutition made me swallow the gob. The seven of them howled with joy. He had spat straight, but he made them pipe down so as not to attract the attention of the head of the family. " your turn "he cried to the others. ' then he grabbed Deloffre by the shoulders- Deloffre was laughing – and , pulling him over to the place he had just left, made him take the same stance. Still shaking with laughter , Deloffre spat in my eyes. The seven of them took their turn, infact several times, including Dirvers. I received the spit in my distended mouth , which fatigue failed to close. Yet a trifle would have sufficed for |the ghastly game to be transformed into a courtly one and for me to be covered not with spit but with roses that had been tossed at me. For as the gestures were the same, it would not have been hard for destiny to change everything: the game is organized ….. youngsters make the gesture of hurling…. It would cost no more for them to hurl happiness. We were in the middle of the most flowery park in France. I waited the roses. I prayed God to alter his intention just a little, to make a false movement so that the children, ceasing to hate me, would love me. They would have gone on with the game….. but with their hands full of flowers, for it would have taken so little for love to enter Vay Roy's heart instead of hate. Vay Roy had invented this punishment. But as the big shots grew more and more excited, their gusto and high spirits began to gain on me. They moved closer and closer until they were near me, and their aim got worse and worse. I saw them spread their legs and draw back, like an archer stringing a blow, and make a slight forward movement as the gob spirited. I was hit in the face and was soon slimier than prickhead under the discharge. I was then invested with deep gravity. I was no longer the adulterous woman being stoned. I was the object of an amours rite. I wanted them to spit more and thicker slime. Deloffre was the first to realize what was happening. He pointed to a particular part of my tight-fitting pants and cried out: " hey!look at this pussy. It is making him come, the bitch " At that point, I closed my mouth and started wiping my face with sleeve. Vay Roy rushed at me. | He butted me in the belly and knocked me against the wall. The others stopping him. ' ……………………………………………………………… The Miracle of the Rose (in French: Miracle de la rose) is a 1946 book by Jean Genet about his experiences as a detainee in Mettray Penal Colony and Fontevrault prison. This autobiographical work has a non-linear structure: stories from Genet's adolescence are mixed in with his experiences as a thirty year old man at Fontevrault prison. At Mettray, Genet describes homosexual erotic desires for his fellow adolescent detainees. There is also a fantastical dimension to the narrative, particularly in Fontevrault passages concerning a prisoner called Harcamone who is condemned to death for murder. Genet idolises Harcamone and writes poetically about the rare occasions on which he catches a glimpse of this character. Genet was detained in Mettray Penal Colony between 2 September 1926 and 1 March 1929, after which, at the age of 18, he joined the Foreign Legion. -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 19:40:47 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:40:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Baul Statue Protests Gather Momentum Message-ID: Cartoonist Rafiqun Nabi, poet Muhammad Samad, dramatics teacher Israfil Shaheen, journalism teachers Getee Ara Nasrin and Robaet Ferdous and drama director M Hamid attended the rally. 'Cultural activists need to take permission from military for holding a cultural programme across the country, but the mullahs face no resistance even if they go out for creating anarchy,' Awami League publicity secretary and actor Asaduzzaman Noor said the government was trying to confuse the people and divert their attention to another issue from the next general elections. Full reports & images here: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/10/19/baul-statue-protests/ From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sun Oct 19 23:05:58 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <930722.61878.qm@web94710.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <597725.81137.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have told earlier also... If my views are ridiculous.. show some courage to discuss the Religious scriptures of Religions which I sometime attack... I know most of you haven't read them... However, the condition of our nation is not bothering you.. Bomb blasts, 6 crore Bangladeshis, lost kashmir, Assam, Tripura and Meghalaya following Kashmir... Muslims denying to accept Bharat as mata, denying to sing Vande Mataram and Jana Gana man.. Hindus being beaten down in Islamic countries... Pandits masssacred and thrown out of their own land...   nothing matters to you... because the killed are scapegoats... The killed one in Blasts are cows... And more importantly, you have not lost your family member in the killing act.. so, the killers are great for you.. they are your heroes... your ideologies... Keep it up... They are not my ideologies for sure.. so I am ridiculous for you... Doesn't matter... For me... love for my country is far beyond your comments or abuses... I do not care for dead people like you peeping out of the grave of selfishness and shouting rotten words...  It hardly matters... Lord Krishna showed Arjuna only people like you to make him understand that these people are already killed and he has nothing great to do... I do not want to break my head further... Let the deads shout in the graveyard of selfishness... Time will let you know what you are talking... --- On Sun, 10/19/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: From: Vedavati Jogi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 12:34 PM i express my views i never use filthy language for your kind information   vedavati --- On Sat, 18/10/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: From: Aarti Sethi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, 18 October, 2008, 5:07 PM Dear Crybabies, This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at anyone who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and urge the moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called Chanchal a 'moron'. 'Moron' 'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to Prabhakar is "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the filth that routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, Prabhakar and radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see why you are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, he is simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say whatever you wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a great deal about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even though you routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in sexist, racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the conversation in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity should not be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus Shuddha called Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that Hindus do not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary knowledge of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate personal laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: Chanchal on Muslim women: "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as possible... four is from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand possesses..." "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having more than one wife.." Chanchal on Hindu Women: "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk about (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have discarded their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are facing problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point - if a girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no Hindus will ever try to even look at her even in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" Chanchal on Indian History: "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in the name of Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal and declared that it is their property.... Chanchal on International relations: "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." Chanchal on Art: "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have done much more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be exposing it to the world)..." Chanchal on Sex: "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." Chanchal on Secularism: "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as long as Hindus are in majority." "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or Christians - all are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is obvious we are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request you to immediately apologise. Warmly Aarti On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular members are in > trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most shocking on > part > of so called List Administrators.. > > So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of their own. > > On 10/18/08, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > > > > It will be approprite to discuss issues on this forum instead of making > > personal attacks and insulting and abusing the members in filthy > > language.The members declaring themselves blessed with so-called > knowledge > > and intelligence have not been given privilege to insult and abuse other > > members freely at their will by calling them "moron", "fool","senseless", > > "nonsense", "idiot", "boring", "ignorant" etc..etc. The System > > Administrator/Moderator should take note of this and remove such people > from > > this forum immediately otherwise I have no option left but to > unsubscribe. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Aarti Sethi > > To: Prabhakar Singh > > Cc: Shuddhabrata Sengupta ; > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com; > > reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 10:37:27 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > > > I notice of you have terribly delicate feelings! You can swear, insult, > > trash other people, their beliefs and faith, thats no problem at all! But > > one little word comes your way and all of a sudden you're crying foul. > You > > are pathetic fools, all of you. If you are so good at dishing it out, > then I > > suggest you start learning to take it as well when someone calls you out > on > > your utter ignorance. If you want people to address you with courtsey, > then > > address them with courtsey. If you want people to take what you say > > seriously, then spend some time thinking about what you say rather than > > appealing to the small pack of idiots on this list by spewing your usual, > > boring, senseless and (endless) nonsense. > > > > Otherwise, I'm afraid we will have to start calling a spade a spade. > > Shuddha is not insulting Chanchal at all. He is simply describing her. it > > would be insulting if in fact Chanchal were not a moron. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Prabhakar Singh < > > prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Is it a way a member to address another member by calling him 'moron' and > > insult him? Moderator may please note and take action. > > Prabhakar > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Friday, 17 October, 2008 11:39:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > Chanchal, you moron, > > > > 1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is > > the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. > > 2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in > > Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any > > religion. > > 3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite > > actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu > > outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, > > Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. > > There is nothing wrong with that. > > 4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them > > communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the > > Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the > > Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me > > neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested > > in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of > > how I see my own faith or doubts). > > > > WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you > > are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, > > either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and > > ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud > > Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices > > actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the > > words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics > > bring shame and dishonour to theirs. > > > > Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless > > depths of your ignorance. > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > > India is secular: > > > 1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law > > > 2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not > > > have that. > > > 3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy > > > 4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged > > > either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their > > > own motherland > > > 5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be > > > secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal > > > > > > Not to say the last words.. > > > If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or > > > Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies > > > because we chose to remain Hindu. > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > From: Vedavati Jogi > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "Javed" > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM > > > > > > i think pakistan will be a better place for you mr. Asghar Ali > > > Engineer. > > > > > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed wrote: > > > > > > From: Javed > > > Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM > > > > > > HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? > > > > > > Asghar Ali Engineer > > > > > > (Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008) > > > > > > There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and > > > history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the > > > world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even > > > when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during > > > emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal > > > country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well > > > as linguistic. > > > > > > However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice, > > > constitution and governance of the country. India was far more > > > peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly, > > > nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were > > > instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite > > > various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent. > > > > > > Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as > > > a category and national identity was of great importance and often > > > caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the > > > process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand > > > for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very > > > articulate and loud. > > > > > > Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi > > > versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so > > > prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to > > > memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was > > > still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or > > > genocide like in Gujarat in 2002. > > > > > > It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great > > > proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad > > > nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400 > > > people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until > > > 1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like > > > Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc. > > > > > > Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence > > > climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement > > > once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull > > > in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place > > > in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite > > > fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country. > > > > > > Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos > > > considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal > > > and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if, > > > has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu > > > religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism > > > has been replaced by Hindu nationalism. > > > > > > For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the > > > Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the > > > Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus > > > from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging > > > to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena. > > > > > > Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva > > > zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent > > > minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the > > > field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly. > > > What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining > > > districts, is indeed hair raising. > > > > > > More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman > > > burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35 > > > thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for? > > > A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that > > > all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not > > > terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? > > > > > > Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of > > > minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted > > > the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert > > > and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to > > > follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers > > > just look on. > > > > > > When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was > > > communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA > > > took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We > > > celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the > > > left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has > > > withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling > > > suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India. > > > > > > However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA > > > Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today > > > there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government. > > > The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is > > > betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime > > > Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact > > > with America than the communal explosion back home. > > > > > > The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the > > > ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home > > > Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given > > > complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over > > > our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such > > > license to function freely. > > > > > > The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all > > > key positions and they captured important academic positions too. > > > Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on > > > large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded > > > people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as > > > never before. > > > > > > Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers > > > and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is > > > ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if > > > investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays > > > most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy > > > cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except > > > for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised. > > > > > > Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong > > > commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle > > > communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is > > > well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first > > > Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva > > > forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation > > > abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is > > > 'shameful'. > > > > > > But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done > > > to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting > > > demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying > > > we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa. > > > It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly > > > secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for > > > its complete inability to control communal violence. > > > > > > So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of > > > fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the > > > footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that > > > of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle > > > classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large > > > numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in > > > Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and > > > Hitler. > > > > > > Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It > > > appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but > > > agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders > > > from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after > > > riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks > > > on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours. > > > > > > It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is > > > assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is > > > riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is > > > Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media > > > abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions > > > and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded > > > terrorists'. > > > > > > The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and > > > play determined role things can get far more worse. > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now > > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. > > Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger..yahoo.com/download.php _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 23:18:18 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 23:18:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] McCain says so what bhaiyya, I still have Kissinger Message-ID: John McCain had a bakwaz morning. Colin Powell became highest ranking Republican to break ranks and announce he would vote for Obama. In response McCain said "four other former Secretary of States support me" Who are the Fatta Four? Arre sala, bring it on 1. Henry Kissinger 2. James Baker 3. Lawrence Eagleburger 4. Alexander Haig "There is a rather touching generational resonance in all this too - it once seemed possible that Colin Powell himself would become the first African-American President of the United States. He was born in an America where it wouldn't have been possible for a black man - however brilliant and inspiring - to reach the position in which Barack Obama now finds himself." "Los Angeles Times is also endorsing the Democrat, the first time the west coast newspaper has backed any candidate since it went for Richard Nixon back in 1972. Given how that particular recommendation turned out you can see why the Times stayed out of the endorsement business for 36 years." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7678907.stm Black President in the house!!! From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Oct 19 23:23:31 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:53:31 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] list regulation, Monika please save us References: DEFANGED[95]:<955829.39445.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><73eb60090810180701h203d180ata2d0e3fdde92d39d@mail.gmail.com><6353c690810181038l66b6d7dar18a206911c6c76f4@mail.gmail.com><73eb60090810182132x463a93d5ja7efe1b77376f32b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Monika and all. This may be getting worse from here. It doesn't take too much to creat new e-mail accounts and sabotage the list. It will not be fun if so called seculars and so called communals start remembering each others mothers and sisters in a nasty way. All that can be done today without revealing your true identity. Before things go out of hands further, I propose that the membership to the group should be restricted to "by invitation or introduction only." If the more capable people are out of time, I can devote some time moderating this list. And please remove this "real Unreal" thing from the list. My Hindi/Urdu is much better than Real Unreal's, but I am not willing to translate the stuff in the below mail. I am sure those who don't know Hindi/Urdu are not missing anything at all by not being able to read the crap below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Real Unreal" To: Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with caution. > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Real Unreal > wrote: >> is aditya pandit poot kay lund pa abi dunda nahi pada hai >> jawan hai, do teen dili ki bilayan jaab panja gardan pa maar dangai, >> to bolna seekh jaya ga >> vasay parveen tagodia say milanay to jagta hi hoga, >> suna ha londoon ka bada shokeen hai >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:02 AM, kirdar singh >> wrote: >>> Even if they converted people to Christianity they gave them >>> education, jobs and dignity - it is far better than re-conversions at >>> gun point in Orissa. >>> >>> You said: "I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system." >>> -- isn't this statement they call an OXYMORON >>> >>> You also said: "We live happily" -- wow, then why are you (and your >>> ilk) spreading so much unhappiness on this list. It certainly doesn't >>> show your happiness. Please go be happy, and let us be happy. We also >>> have to intentions to spoil your happiness. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> wrote: >>>> Kirdar ji, >>>> >>>> Are you talking of those so called 'Christian Tribal' who were >>>> converted by >>>> Christian Missionaries in return for job, money and a lot more ? They >>>> were >>>> bought and converted. Isn't that so Mr. Kirdar Singh ? Or, you think >>>> that is >>>> legal bcoz they were Christian's and not Hindu's. >>>> >>>> I'm a proud Kashmiri Pandit. We don't have a caste system. We live >>>> happily. >>>> >>>> Love >>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> >>>> On 10/18/08, kirdar singh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Oh my, my. You still believe in caste system! In that case, when you >>>>> convert a Christian tribal in Orissa to Hinduism, which caste does he >>>>> go to? Can he apply for Brahminship? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Prabhakar Singh >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > Dear Kirdar Ji, >>>>> > Thanks a lot for a very interesting,absorbing and enlightening >>>>> > account >>>>> about Pandits sent within no time.What I meant by "Pandit" was >>>>> "Brahmin" : >>>>> one of the four castes of Hindus. >>>>> > Regards, >>>>> > Prabhakar >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> > From: kirdar singh >>>>> > To: Prabhakar Singh >>>>> > Cc: inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> > Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:34:43 AM >>>>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with >>>>> caution. >>>>> > >>>>> > Prabhakar ji >>>>> > Non-Hindus can be pundits too. See below: >>>>> > >>>>> > The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first English Language use >>>>> > of >>>>> > the word "Pundit" as referring to an official of the Supreme Court >>>>> > in >>>>> > Colonial India who advised the English Judges on questions of Hindu >>>>> > law. In Anglo-Indian use, "pundit" also referred to a native of >>>>> > India >>>>> > who was trained and employed by the British to survey inaccessible >>>>> > regions beyond the British frontier. By extension, the word came to >>>>> > refer to, "A learned expert or teacher" >>>>> > >>>>> > A pundit is someone who offers to mass-media his/her opinion or >>>>> > commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political >>>>> > analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which he/she is presumed >>>>> > to be knowledgeable. The term has been increasingly applied to >>>>> > popular >>>>> > media personalities. In certain cases, it may be used in a >>>>> > derogatory >>>>> > manner as well. >>>>> > >>>>> > The term originates from the Hindi term pandit, which in turn is >>>>> > derived from Sanskrit pandita, learned, and is first found in >>>>> > English >>>>> > in 1672.[1] It refers to someone who is erudite in various subjects >>>>> > and who conducts religious ceremonies and offers counsel to the king >>>>> > or mayor. >>>>> > >>>>> > Speculation exists that the term's contemporary use may have its >>>>> > origins in a Yale University society known as "The Pundits" which, >>>>> > founded in 1884, developed a reputation for including among its >>>>> > members the school's most incisive and humorous critics of >>>>> > contemporary society. The group's late-nineteenth and >>>>> > early-twentieth >>>>> > century focus on lampooning the social and political world were >>>>> > well-documented in the university's yearbook and the Yale Daily >>>>> > News, >>>>> > the entries of which are considered among the first use of the term >>>>> > "Pundit" to refer to a critic of or expert on contemporary >>>>> > matters.[citation needed] Several members of the society have also >>>>> > gone on to become leading political pundits, including Pulitzer >>>>> > Prize-winning author and energy expert Daniel Yergin. Other notable >>>>> > Yale Pundits include A. Whitney Griswold, Lewis H. Lapham and Joe >>>>> > Lieberman. >>>>> > >>>>> > In the English-speaking West, pundits write signed articles in print >>>>> > media (blurbs included), and appear on radio, television, or the >>>>> > internet with opinions on current events. Television pundits may >>>>> > also >>>>> > be referred to as talking heads. >>>>> > >>>>> > Punditry has become a more popular vehicle in nightly newscasts on >>>>> > American cable news networks. A rise of partisanship among popular >>>>> > pundits began with Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel. His >>>>> > opinion-oriented format led him to ratings success and has led >>>>> > others, >>>>> > including Lou Dobbs, Keith Olbermann, and Nancy Grace, to express >>>>> > their opinions on matters on their own respective programs.[2] >>>>> > >>>>> > Internet authors trying to create a name for themselves by >>>>> > non-traditional means, may refer to themselves as pundits, and in >>>>> > fact >>>>> > can be considered experts of their particular life experiences or >>>>> > observations[3]. >>>>> > >>>>> > Comedian Stephen Colbert satirizes punditry in his show, The Colbert >>>>> > Report, most notably based on Bill O'Reilly but including others as >>>>> > well. >>>>> > >>>>> > The term pundit is also used to refer to sports experts.[4] Often, a >>>>> > 'pundit' will be partnered alongside a commentator, who will >>>>> > describe >>>>> > the action while asking the pundit for analysis. Alternatively, >>>>> > pundits may be asked for their opinions during breaks in the play. >>>>> > >>>>> > This is a list of some well-known contemporary pundits: >>>>> > >>>>> > * Australia >>>>> > o Andrew Bolt >>>>> > o Phil Cleary >>>>> > o Germaine Greer >>>>> > o John Laws >>>>> > o Glenn Milne >>>>> > >>>>> > * Brazil >>>>> > o Olavo de Carvalho >>>>> > o Reinaldo Azevedo >>>>> > >>>>> > * Canada >>>>> > o Michael Coren >>>>> > >>>>> > * Chile >>>>> > o Hermógenes Pérez de Arce >>>>> > o Gonzalo Rojas Sánchez >>>>> > o Patricio Navia >>>>> > o Miljenko R. Marinkovic >>>>> > >>>>> > * Hong Kong, China >>>>> > o Ivan Choy >>>>> > >>>>> > * India >>>>> > o Cho Ramaswamy >>>>> > >>>>> > * Spain >>>>> > o Federico Jiménez Losantos >>>>> > o Iñaki Gabilondo >>>>> > o Luis del Olmo >>>>> > >>>>> > * United Kingdom >>>>> > o David Aaronovitch >>>>> > o Gary Lineker >>>>> > o Matthew Le Tissier >>>>> > o Tim Henman >>>>> > o Andy Gray >>>>> > o John Motson >>>>> > o Martin Tyler >>>>> > o Vanessa Feltz >>>>> > o Germaine Greer >>>>> > o Christopher Hitchens >>>>> > o Peter Hitchens >>>>> > o John McCririck >>>>> > o George Monbiot >>>>> > o Melanie Phillips >>>>> > >>>>> > * United States >>>>> > o Glenn Beck >>>>> > o Neal Boortz >>>>> > o Tucker Carlson >>>>> > o Stephen Colbert >>>>> > o Alan Colmes >>>>> > o Ann Coulter >>>>> > o Lou Dobbs >>>>> > o Roger Ebert >>>>> > o Al Franken >>>>> > o Nancy Grace >>>>> > o Sean Hannity >>>>> > o Christopher Hitchens >>>>> > o Ezra Klein >>>>> > o Rush Limbaugh >>>>> > o Rachel Maddow >>>>> > o Bill Maher >>>>> > o Michelle Malkin >>>>> > o Chris Matthews >>>>> > o Keith Olbermann >>>>> >o Bill O'Reilly >>>>> > o Joe Scarborough >>>>> > o Michael Savage >>>>> > o Mark Steyn >>>>> > o Jon Stewart >>>>> > >>>>> > Sports Pundits >>>>> > o Skip Bayless >>>>> > o Mike Francesa >>>>> > o Peter Gammons >>>>> > o Mike Golic >>>>> > o Mike Greenberg >>>>> > o Jay Mariotti >>>>> > o Woody Paige >>>>> > o Jim Rome >>>>> > o Chris Russo >>>>> > o Stephen A. Smith >>>>> > o Dick Vitale >>>>> > o Michael Wilbon >>>>> > o Tony Kornheiser >>>>> > o Lou Holtz >>>>> > o Keyman Ma >>>>> > >>>>> > In the second half of the 19th century, the term pundit was used to >>>>> > denote native surveyors who explored regions to the north of India >>>>> > for >>>>> > the British. >>>>> > >>>>> > One of the greatest projects of nineteenth century geography was the >>>>> > Great Trigonometric Survey of India. The English also wanted >>>>> > geographical information on the lands further north. This was not >>>>> > just >>>>> > out of scientific curiosity: The Russians were expanding their >>>>> > empire >>>>> > into Central Asia, and the English feared that they might have set >>>>> > their eyes on India. Thus, the Russians and the English both tried >>>>> > to >>>>> > extend their influence in Asia. Knowledge of geography of the region >>>>> > was of course of utmost importance in this so-called 'Great Game'. >>>>> > >>>>> > However, in some regions these surveys seemed impossible. Some of >>>>> > the >>>>> > Indian border countries, in particular Tibet, would not allow >>>>> > westerners to enter their country, let alone a British surveying >>>>> > team. >>>>> > In the 1860s, Thomas G. Montgomerie, a captain in the survey, >>>>> > realised >>>>> > that the solution to this problem would be to train natives from >>>>> > Indian border states such as Sikkim to be surveyors, and have them >>>>> > explore the region. These would raise less suspicion than Europeans, >>>>> > and might be able to make observations disguised as a trader or a >>>>> > lama >>>>> > (holy man). These native surveyors are called pundits. >>>>> > >>>>> > A number of tricks were developed to enable the pundits to make >>>>> > their >>>>> > observations without being found out. They were trained to make >>>>> > exactly 2,000 paces to the mile. To count them, they used what >>>>> > looked >>>>> > like a Buddhist rosary, called a mala, but instead of the usual 108 >>>>> > beads had 100, every tenth being slightly larger. Every 100 paces a >>>>> > bead was dropped. A prayer wheel did not hold the usual Buddhist >>>>> > prayer om mani padme hum, but maps and notes. Pundit Nain Singh >>>>> > Rawat >>>>> > also found that these could be used to ward off curious >>>>> > co-travelers: >>>>> > Each time someone came too near, he would start whirling the wheel >>>>> > around and thus pretend to be in religious contemplation. Usually >>>>> > this >>>>> > would be enough to stop others from addressing him. Another way of >>>>> > keeping their observation was to turn them into a poem, and recite >>>>> > that during their travels. >>>>> > >>>>> > The pundits were given extensive training in surveying: They learned >>>>> > to use the sextant, determine height by measuring the temperature of >>>>> > boiling water, and make astronomical observations. They also >>>>> > received >>>>> > medical training. Despite the precautions and tricks, some of them >>>>> > were sent back, tortured or even executed. But with their travels >>>>> > they >>>>> > managed to map the Himalaya, Tibet and surrounding areas with >>>>> > remarkable precision. >>>>> > >>>>> > Pandits, or locals learned in the dharmasastra, were also employed >>>>> > as >>>>> > court advisors during the 18th and 19th Centuries. Initially, >>>>> > British >>>>> > judges had very little knowledge of Hindu customs and oral >>>>> > traditions, >>>>> > and they could seek information from them on particular questions. >>>>> > The >>>>> > Supreme Court of India had a law officer styled the Pundit of the >>>>> > Supreme Court, who advised the English judges on points of Hindu >>>>> > law. >>>>> > The practice was abandoned by 1864, as judges had acquired some >>>>> > experience in dealing with Hindu law, and applied the increasing >>>>> > volume of case law that had developed. Further, the institution of >>>>> > the >>>>> > High Courts, two years earlier, in 1862 further diminished their >>>>> > official use. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Prabhakar Singh >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >> I am unable to understand how somebody can be a Pandit without >>>>> >> being a >>>>> Hindu.Pandit is a sub-set of the set called Hindu.Such people are only >>>>> confusing others in the web of their words.This appears to be only >>>>> singular >>>>> and exceptional case.There are not many such confused hypocrates who >>>>> are >>>>> ashamed of their own religion or their roots or origin. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ----- Original Message ---- >>>>> >> From: inder salim >>>>> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 5:26:37 PM >>>>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] secular fascist is at work, proceed with >>>>> caution. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Dear Bhat sahib >>>>> >> >>>>> >> briefly, about me, what you are saying , i have never said. >>>>> >> about kashmir, just tell me where i wrote that 'Islamic rule in >>>>> >> place >>>>> >> democratic rule of laws'. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> now i quote you again, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, >>>>> >> investigation, >>>>> >> prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is bound to be >>>>> >> violent. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> if we apply the same thinking in kashmir or elsewhere, then you >>>>> >> justify violence. i dont support this thinking. that is normal. i >>>>> >> dont qualify fascist for holding such a opinion. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> about old mosque in ayodhya. tell me, which school you belong ? one >>>>> >> which motivates/employess the poor man to pull old mosques ( or >>>>> >> temples, churches even ) or the other where one voluntarily joins >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> demolition ( be it Ayodhya or kashmir or orrisa ) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> this question i asked because you feel hurt, as a hindu, but the >>>>> >> other >>>>> >> religions which are less accomodative in comparision to those. >>>>> >> Strange that you believe India belongs to Hindus only. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> in some other mail, our Dear Friend Mr. Kshmendra made it clear >>>>> >> that >>>>> >> his identity as Hindu is ' unfortunate' in comparision to his >>>>> >> Kashmiri pandit identity. He believes that being Hindu is only his >>>>> >> recorded identity, not his Dharmic. Mr. Lalit has already replied >>>>> >> that >>>>> >> in his own way, but dont you see the point....... and in Indian, >>>>> >> these ( kshmendra like ) identities are in millions, because >>>>> >> Hinduism >>>>> >> can notbe defined as such. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hindutva is a poltical system which is meant to block the thinking >>>>> >> of >>>>> >> ordinary Indians. Why dont you see the game ? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> warmly >>>>> >> is >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:50 PM, rajendra bhat >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>> Inder salim >>>>> >>> With lots of love, you belong to a school of secularism with >>>>> fascist undertones, indersalim, if you mean what you express in the >>>>> thoughts >>>>> that you express with lots of love, the agenda of spreading hate in >>>>> the >>>>> express words of love is in obivious stark contrast when you talk of >>>>> kashmir, its citizens. You seem to expect the quiet tolerate citizens >>>>> of >>>>> hindu community to be quiet when you propagate secession of my nation >>>>> with >>>>> your agenda of the faith to bring in an islamic rule in the place of >>>>> democratic rule of laws. This is not acceptable to me, I disagree with >>>>> you >>>>> when you project your thoughts in support of separatists like yasin >>>>> malik, >>>>> "prof" geelani and syed geelanis who work within the system or outside >>>>> to >>>>> bring azadi to kashmir just because their faith is majority in the >>>>> area they >>>>> represent now. Kashmir and its citizens have to accept the rule of >>>>> laws as >>>>> agreed by the accession of its ruler, even though some of them are >>>>> these >>>>> rotten >>>>> >>> citizens of one faith, manage to silence many of the same faith., >>>>> >>> used the masjids giving calls, azaan, to clean out hindus by >>>>> violence..Let it be borne in mind that in the continent, 457 kingdoms >>>>> that >>>>> were there at the time of freedom, all except those ruled by islamic >>>>> kings >>>>> like hyderabad nizam, and islamic subjects like kasmiri muslims did >>>>> not >>>>> accept the "nation" and force has to be used to keep the nation as a >>>>> nation, >>>>> that too inspite of accommodative nature of all other citizens for the >>>>> muslim.With a population of 40 percent hindus in Kashmir, it was that >>>>> small >>>>> margin that made the faith followers to "cleanse" the fellow citizens >>>>> out of >>>>> Kasmir by violence which is now not acceptable. Then it was neglected >>>>> and >>>>> tolerated, not now. Then the game of divisive politics, divided the >>>>> society >>>>> of hindus on their inherent defect, castes, so if a pandit was killed >>>>> other >>>>> hindus "tolerated", now a hindu is hindu not divided with caste, >>>>> better >>>>> united. So now the new game of "secularist" hindu fuelled by left >>>>> idealogy.? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Being hindu, we respect all faiths and its followers and are >>>>> >>> tolerent >>>>> of their customs and cultures. But that is not license in free India >>>>> to bash >>>>> the faith of hindu way of life for trp in tv channels, nor it can be >>>>> taken >>>>> for granted that you play one caste against the other and create vote >>>>> banks >>>>> and talk of "secuarlism" with commune vote banks. Hindus have >>>>> understood how >>>>> if they are divided the 2 percent community can take over the rule of >>>>> the >>>>> nation. After seeing what has happened around us, a "devout" Bush >>>>> attacking >>>>> the divided society with search for imaginary weapons of mass >>>>> destruction, >>>>> sending in his troops to war against terror, but terror continues as >>>>> the >>>>> each sect of the faith wants to control the other sects. Muslim >>>>> followers of >>>>> faith are today divided lot with over a dozen sects fighting with each >>>>> other >>>>> so that they are like cats fighting for butter and a monkey is >>>>> offering them >>>>> to distribute the butter equally for them.! >>>>> >>> As a hindu we have adopted and adapted the good of other faith in >>>>> >>> our >>>>> way of life, but that to say that only one faith is saviour to mankind >>>>> is >>>>> unacceptable and in democratic life of the nation, faith is very >>>>> personal, >>>>> it is rule of laws which has to manage the nation and its citizens.It >>>>> is >>>>> often attributed that hindus hate muslims and others of different >>>>> faith, >>>>> which is just a propaganda, we dislike those who use faith to garner >>>>> votes >>>>> from vote banks, even if they are hindus, like a yadav who caters to >>>>> his >>>>> commune vote bank, or a jat who talks for only jats, or a reddy or >>>>> gowda who >>>>> indulges in nepotism of his "caste." In democratic life, every citizen >>>>> must >>>>> get good of governance irrespective of faith, region and castes. If a >>>>> Sacchar reports only about muslims that they are backward in society, >>>>> what >>>>> wrong other citizens have done who are below the poverty line in the >>>>> nation, >>>>> are they also not backward in social , educational, health care >>>>> facilities.? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Now about the history of dilapidated structure, is it not true >>>>> >>> that >>>>> courts had stopped the prayers at this dilapidated structure in the >>>>> british >>>>> rule because the title of the land was defective.? Is it not true that >>>>> a >>>>> temple in the land, disputed land was destroyed for this structure to >>>>> be >>>>> built by a tyrant king babur.? When we hindus have accepted all >>>>> muslims in >>>>> India, even after dividing India for two nations of the faith, we >>>>> remained >>>>> secular to accommodate the citizens of other faiths.?So, if only >>>>> courts had >>>>> disposed of the case then nation would not have been in turmoil and >>>>> the >>>>> leaders did not take any steps to expedite the disposal of the case is >>>>> a >>>>> true fact. Whatever be the decision, at that stage, in early free >>>>> India, >>>>> judiciary commanded more respect than now. But the game was of >>>>> appeasement, >>>>> not only of muslims but also of hindu castes.! >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Violent methods by anyone can not be tolarated, be it from any >>>>> faith, for any reason, but the truth is system likes to breed the >>>>> violence, >>>>> the goons are helped to be MLAs and MPs.., by all political parties as >>>>> a to >>>>> cut metal one needs only metal.? It is not the intention to justify >>>>> any >>>>> violence by anyone with action and reaction theories, but the fact is >>>>> when >>>>> system fails to stop the "action" as in Godhra where karsevaks are >>>>> burnt, or >>>>> as in Khandamal, where 83 year old swami and his 67 year old followers >>>>> are >>>>> shot dead, stopping by immediate action of lawkeepers , by arrest, >>>>> investigation, prosecution and exemplary punishment, the reaction is >>>>> bound >>>>> to be violent. >>>>> >>> Look at the out bursts of some in the list, so called from very >>>>> secularist schools, and the headmistress of that school, very >>>>> civilised.? >>>>> The list administrator himself has no tolerence for the thoughts of >>>>> others, >>>>> as he is showing with very uncouth words for such thoughts in most >>>>> uncivilised words.? Unless we have a open mind to all thoughts, we are >>>>> brain >>>>> inactive with set thoughts. As to us, we have seen the thoughts from >>>>> all >>>>> school of thoughts, being hindu, we accept atheist, or rational >>>>> thoughts >>>>> also, we do not ask them to be quiet, or to shut up.We accept all >>>>> faithsand >>>>> accept good in those faiths, we do not call the thoughts moronic, but >>>>> ofcourse we express our opinion on these thoughts, be it the head >>>>> mistress >>>>> or the administator. This reply I had resrved for posting on next >>>>> week, but >>>>> the hilarious post about internet love cleared my thoughts.And I >>>>> prefer to >>>>> post only one post per week, but the ripartee and abuse that was on >>>>> the list >>>>> made one >>>>> >>> think, is this freedom of expression gagged.? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! >>>>> >>> Messenger. >>>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >> List archive: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >>>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >> List archive: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. >>>>> Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php >>>>> > >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 07:24:18 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:54:18 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Wary of Islam, China Tightens A Vise of Rules (NY Times) Message-ID: Wary of Islam, China Tightens A Vise of Rules. By EDWARD WONG; Huang Yuanxi contributed research.. KHOTAN, China. The grand mosque that draws thousands of Muslims each week in this oasis town has all the usual trappings of piety: dusty wool carpets on which to kneel in prayer, a row of turbans and skullcaps for men without headwear, a wall niche facing the holy city of Mecca in the Arabian desert. But large signs posted by the front door list edicts that are more Communist Party decrees than Koranic doctrines. The imam's sermon at Friday Prayer must run no longer than a half-hour, the rules say. Prayer in public areas outside the mosque is forbidden. Residents of Khotan are not allowed to worship at mosques outside of town. One rule on the wall says that government workers and nonreligious people may not be 'forced' to attend services at the mosque -- a generous wording of a law that prohibits government workers and Communist Party members from going at all. Of course this makes people angry,' said a teacher in the mosque courtyard, who would give only a partial name, Muhammad, for fear of government retribution. Excitable people think the government is wrong in what it does. They say that government officials who are Muslims should also be allowed to pray. To be a practicing Muslim in the vast autonomous region of northwestern China called Xinjiang is to live under an intricate series of laws and regulations intended to control the spread and practice of Islam, the predominant religion among the Uighurs, a Turkic people uneasy with Chinese rule. The edicts touch on every facet of a Muslim's way of life. Official versions of the Koran are the only legal ones. Imams may not teach the Koran in private, and studying Arabic is allowed only at special government schools. Two of Islam's five pillars -- the sacred fasting month of Ramadan and the pilgrimage to Mecca called the hajj -- are also carefully controlled. Students and government workers are compelled to eat during Ramadan, and the passports of Uighurs have been confiscated across Xinjiang to force them to join government-run hajj tours rather than travel illegally to Mecca on their own. Government workers are not permitted to practice Islam, which means the slightest sign of devotion, a head scarf on a woman, for example, could lead to a firing. The Chinese government, which is officially atheist, recognizes five religions -- Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Taoism and Buddhism -- and tightly regulates their administration and practice. Its oversight in Xinjiang, though, is especially vigilant because it worries about separatist activity in the region. Some officials contend that insurgent groups in Xinjiang pose one of the biggest security threats to China, and the government says the 'three forces' of separatism, terrorism and religious extremism threaten to destabilize the region. But outside scholars of Xinjiang and terrorism experts argue that heavy-handed tactics like the restrictions on Islam will only radicalize more Uighurs. Many of the rules have been on the books for years, but some local governments in Xinjiang have publicly highlighted them in the past seven weeks by posting the laws on Web sites or hanging banners in towns. Those moves coincided with Ramadan, which ran from September to early October, and came on the heels of a series of attacks in August that left at least 22 security officers and one civilian dead, according to official reports. The deadliest attack was a murky ambush in Kashgar that witnesses said involved men in police uniforms fighting each other. The attacks were the biggest wave of violence in Xinjiang since the 1990s. In recent months, Wang Lequan, the long-serving party secretary of Xinjiang, and Nuer Baikeli, the chairman of the region, have given hard-line speeches indicating that a crackdown will soon begin. Mr. Wang said the government was engaged in a 'life or death' struggle in Xinjiang. Mr. Baikeli signaled that government control of religious activities would tighten, asserting that 'the religious issue has been the barometer of stability in Xinjiang. Anti-China forces in the West and separatist forces are trying to carry out 'illegal religious activities and agitate religious fever,' he said, and 'the field of religion has become an increasingly important battlefield against enemies. Uighurs are the largest ethnic group in Xinjiang, accounting for 46 percent of the population of 19 million. Many say Han Chinese, the country's dominant ethnic group, discriminate against them based on the most obvious differences between the groups: language and religion. The Uighurs began adopting Sunni Islam in the 10th century, although patterns of belief vary widely, and the religion has enjoyed a surge of popularity after the harshest decades of Communist rule. According to government statistics, there are 24,000 mosques and 29,000 religious leaders in Xinjiang. Muslim piety is especially strong in old Silk Road towns in the south like Kashgar, Yarkand and Khotan. Many Han Chinese see Islam as the root of social problems in Xinjiang. The Uighurs are lazy,' said a man who runs a construction business in Kashgar and would give only his last name, Zhao, because of the political delicacy of the topic. It's because of their religion,' he said. They spend so much time praying. What are they praying for? The government restrictions are posted inside mosques and elsewhere across Xinjiang. In particular, officials take great pains to publicize the law prohibiting Muslims from arranging their own trips for the hajj. Signs painted on mud-brick walls in the winding alleyways of old Kashgar warn against making illegal pilgrimages. A red banner hanging on a large mosque in the Uighur area of Urumqi, the regional capital, says, 'Implement the policy of organized and planned pilgrimage; individual pilgrimage is forbidden. As dozens of worshipers streamed into the mosque for prayer on a recent evening, one Uighur man pointed to the sign and shook his head. We didn't write that,' he said in broken Chinese. They wrote that. He turned his finger to a white neon sign above the building that simply said 'mosque' in Arabic script. We wrote that,' he said. Like other Uighurs interviewed for this article, he agreed to speak on the condition that his name not be used for fear of retribution by the authorities. The government gives various reasons for controlling the hajj. Officials say that the Saudi Arabian government is concerned about crowded conditions in Mecca that have led to fatal tramplings, and that Muslims who leave China on their own sometimes spend too much money on the pilgrimage. Critics say the government is trying to restrict the movements of Uighurs and prevent them from coming into contact with other Muslims, fearing that such exchanges could build a pan-Islamic identity in Xinjiang. About two years ago, the government began confiscating the passports of Uighurs across the region, angering many people here. Now virtually no Uighurs have passports, though they can apply for them for short trips. The new restriction has made life especially difficult for businessmen who travel to neighboring countries. To get a passport to go on an official hajj tour or a business trip, applicants must leave a deposit of nearly $6,000. One man in Kashgar said the imam at his mosque, who like all official imams is paid by the government, had recently been urging congregants to go to Mecca only with legal tours. That is not easy for many Uighurs. The cost of an official trip is the equivalent of $3,700, and hefty bribes usually raise the price. Once a person files an application, the authorities do a background check into the family. If the applicant has children, the children must be old enough to be financially self-sufficient, and the applicant is required to show that he or she has substantial savings in the bank. Officials say these conditions ensure that a hajj trip will not leave the family impoverished. Rules posted last year on the Xinjiang government's Web site say the applicant must be 50 to 70 years old, 'love the country and obey the law. The number of applicants far outnumbers the slots available each year, and the wait is at least a year. But the government has been raising the cap. Xinhua, the state news agency, reported that from 2006 to 2007, more than 3,100 Muslims from Xinjiang went on the official hajj, up from 2,000 the previous year. One young Uighur man in Kashgar said his parents were pushing their children to get married soon so they could prove the children were financially independent, thus allowing them to qualify to go on the hajj. Their greatest wish is to go to Mecca once,' the man, who wished to be identified only as Abdullah, said over dinner. But the family has to weigh another factor: the father, now retired, was once a government employee and a Communist Party member, so he might very well lose his pension if he went on the hajj, Abdullah said. The rules on fasting during Ramadan are just as strict. Several local governments began posting the regulations on their Web sites last month. They vary by town and county but include requiring restaurants to stay open during daylight hours and mandating that women not wear veils and men shave their beards. Enforcement can be haphazard. In Kashgar, many Uighur restaurants remained closed during the fasting hours. The religion is too strong in Kashgar,' said one man. There are rules, but people don't follow them. One rule that officials in some towns seem especially intent on enforcing is the ban on students' fasting. Supporters of this policy say students need to eat to study properly. The local university in Kashgar adheres to the policy. Starting last year, it tried to force students to eat during the day by prohibiting them from leaving campus in the evening to join their families in breaking the daily fast. Residents of Kashgar say the university locked the gates and put glass shards along the top of a campus wall. After a few weeks, the school built a higher wall. From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 08:45:54 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:45:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fish workers to launch agitation Message-ID: <3457ce860810192015k200938a1x9fdcd02fb9abd1ce@mail.gmail.com> Fish workers to launch agitation Date:20/10/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/10/20/stories/2008102050360200.htm Staff Reporter THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Fish workers under the banner of the National Fish Workers' Forum and the Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation would launch a nation-wide agitation in protest against the neglect shown by the Central and State governments to the community. This was announced at a press conference here on Friday by State president of the federation T. Peter. While a dharna would be held in front of the Secretariat on October 23, a satyagraha would be held in front of the Parliament in Delhi from November 4 to 7. CRZ law On the other the Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) law of 1991 contained provisions to protect the traditional rights of the fishermen community. The inclusion of 12 nautical miles of sea in the notification has caused anxiety in the community. This can only lead to the handing over of coastal areas to monopolies in the model of the Special Economic Zones. This, in turn, will lead to a denial of fishing rights to the community and to large scale sand-mining. The said notification has a provision to allow tourism and industrial activity on the seaward side of the coastal setback line. However construction of houses for fishermen would not be allowed in this land. This cannot be accepted by the community. Hundreds of foreign vessels fish off the Indian coast daily. As these vessels take away many varieties of fish including species that are exported, these fish are not available to traditional fishermen. Even fish that was commonly available in this season is not available now, Mr. Peter said. 'Not implemented' Even though the State government has announced several welfare measures for the community it has not implemented any of these. Debt relief and insurance for fishermen remain on paper. The distribution of interest-free loans to women of the community is yet to commence. Moreover, this is for the second time in three months that the government has slashed the quota of kerosene for fishermen. It is in such a situation that fishermen have decided to launch the nation-wide agitation, he added. From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Sat Oct 18 17:55:59 2008 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:25:59 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? In-Reply-To: <32144e990810180335g1d9981c7p81f7427987ccdf23@mail.gmail.com> References: <566768.79994.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <32144e990810180335g1d9981c7p81f7427987ccdf23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if this makes still sense, as it is re-entering the 'debate' at a point from which it has, particularly after Shuddha's mail, moved on. Yet after Partha's intervention it maybe does. I re- post below at the admin's advise the mail I had sent out yesterday and which had been withheld because of the attached pdf-file. As both Chanchal and Tapas have responded to it, it may be of interest to others too. There is no guarantee, apparently, that Tapas will not die in a 'riot' - which he himself is very aware of and which your whole rhetoric, Chanchal, moves even more into the realm of likelihood. It is also not any more self-evident that I will not die in a pogrom when I come to India next and travel to Orissa or Gujarat again, because I might be mistaken for a Christian, even though I am without religion - not the same as secular - but these are precisely the small differentiations that do not count in the face of a caricatured 'Bharat Mata' (who would, I'm sure, cringe at what you're doing to her if she could). The reactions to Samina's wonderful and important piece - that fell victim to 'editorial necessities' (??) at India Today - have again, in the foreseeable fashion, undercrored this. The unwillingness to accept differentiations - rather than essentialising 'cultural differences' - is tantamount to the refusal to accept plurality. The resulting form of uncompromising hatred against minorities and their varied existences that has taken root in India over the past two decades deeply scares me and many others, particularly because it is increasingly carried, enacted and formulated by parts of the population itself, even if it still thrives most where the state and para-state organisations lend legitimacy to it. I know that there is no use trying to discuss with you, Chanchal, or with the rest of the Hindutva mob on this list, that pedagogical and reasonable explanations and enlightenment are lost on you. It is as fruitless virtually as it is on the street, or, for that matter, in a seminar room - because it is a myth that Hindutva only appeals to non- intellectuals. I know your 'arguments', so please, kindly, spare me - or erupt again, if you can't help it, it hardly makes a difference. And that's the actually scary part, the communication breakdown. But maybe you can give it a thought that nobody on this list has so far called for your expellation or has suggested you find other fora to express your views. What do you think it means that people here endure your discriminations and calls for conversions without calling for your own? Could it have something to do with democracy? In the face of the latter's volatile situation, however, what is left, it seems, is to use the 'points' you keep raising as a documentation of this hatred, particularly for those in the 'West', who are in the wake of the 'war on terror' partly re-inforced in their romanticist ideas of 'tolerant Hindus' and 'aggressive Muslims'. I'm attaching an article of mine that was published in the EPW in December last year, just before the Assembly elections in Gujarat. I advise you not to read it, Chanchal, but maybe, hopefully, it is of interest to some others. Best -- Britta silences in gujarat december 8, 2007 Economic & Political Weekly Narratives of the Underbelly of Democracy Britta Ohm Five years after the anti-Muslim pogrom in Gujarat, the victims want to talk about their continued sufferings. No one prevents them from doing so. Only, there are no listeners. For the Gujarat government they simply do not exist, for the media their story is not immediate and urgent, and for the majority their harping on grievances is proof of an unwillingness to bury the past. In post-democracy Gujarat, policies take precedence over the political and victims of pogroms or genocides are merely obstacles to economic progress. The Gujarat pogrom of 2002 has by now trickled into the larger global debate as the signifier of a turning point in Hindu-Muslim relations, state action and India’s position in the “war on terror”. Despite the obvious absence of evidence, though, the internationally accepted narrative, in which freedom and democracy are being defended against Islamist terrorism, is till today ready to explain it as a reaction to the burning of the train in Godhra by “a Muslim mob”. The disinterest in researchable facts that concern democratic law and order, which is revealed in the readiness to accept this narrative, thus extends far beyond Gujarat and India. In India itself, this disinterest may have been one of the reasons why, after the Gujarat pogrom had been the focus of unprecedented media attention in 2002, post-violence Gujarat had so consistently vanished from the headlines. The vanishing was accidentally helped by the swelling amount of commercialised and democratised 24x7 news channels and the expanding number of newspapers, magazines and e-media, which increasingly individualise the recipient and user, swinging their attention ever faster from disaster to murder to investigation to natural catastrophe to disaster and thus painting layer after layer over the turning point with regard to India’s democracy that the Gujarat pogrom signified. Gujarat’s increasing invisibility in an ocean of imagery beyond everyday politics and symbolised fragments such as the Best Bakery case did not merely leave the impression that the pogrom has been a mere speck with no severe implications. It also suggested that Gujarat was only vaguely related to the rest of India, which added not merely to the pronunciation of Gujarati nationalism but also to the invisibility of the Muslim plight. When I had returned to India in the company of a friend earlier this year for some follow-up research on a project on Indian media under transnationalisation1, it had been the lingering indifference to what had actually happened and the absence of coverage on Gujarat in the mass media that provoked our decision to travel to Ahmedabad. I just wanted to see what a few reports told me was anything but “back to normal”. The very fact that there was no difficulty in accessing sites, people or organisations in the Muslim community, already underlined that their recognition was a matter of choice rather than of possibility. In this sense, Prashant Jha’s suggestion that Gujarat is a “fascist realm”2 is slightly misleading, as it conjures up ideas of authoritarian regimes, like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin, that would do anything to hide their crimes, suppress their critics and silence their victims, making an investigation an existential endeavour. The Gujarat victims’ readiness to talk should still not be mistaken for an actual freedom to do so. Insofar as open suppression has, at least on the surface, been replaced largely by denial and the insistence on “normalcy”, however, Jha is right if one understands “fascist realm” as a manifestation of “everyday fascism”, i e, as the Austrian writer Elisabeth Reichart has defined it, “as an authoritarian and hierarchical mode of thought and behaviour based on discrimination and lack of equality, [that] renders attempts at self- definition futile and interpersonal relations hence potentially exploitative and explosive”3 and that is not directly opposed to democracy. The atmosphere was probably most comparable to Germany after the war, when Germans, already mesmerised by the emerging economic boom, went about the rubble and debris in their cities, unable and unwilling to realise the degree of destruction beyond their own property and the dimensions of cruelty and suffering they had tolerated and supported. In today’s Gujarat, though, things appear indeed far more “normal”, able to convey to the non-specified first-time visitor, who does not venture into Muslim areas, an image of the non-interrupted every day. A tourist couple from Italy who had just returned from Ahmedabad, where they went mainly to look at the fabulous textile museum, had heard about the “riots” but described the situation in the city as “normal. People told us there had always been violence between Muslims and Hindus, but now you can see in the old city, there is one Muslim shop and one Hindu shop next to each other and no trouble.” This is the other commonly acceptable narrative, the cultural version of “natural” Hindu-Muslim antagonism since time immemorial that “breaks free” at times and is independent from changing political conditions and technologies. Yet the non-normal lies in Ahmedabad so immediately under the surface, and actually so obviously supplants it, that its perception is not a matter of physical possibility. We tried to avoid linking up with an non-governmental organisation (NGO) or local organisation in order to get an entry into the “normality” first. Our first exploration began with the walled city (or old city). To the more experienced eye it became obvious that Hindu and Muslim areas were strictly segregated along an almost invisible pattern, while the displayed goods were mainly household utensils in plastic or metal and an extremely limited choice of nylon saris and salwars. The breathtaking, Jumma Masjid was hardly frequented and the exceptional ‘jalis’ (lattice work) in Sidi Sayiad’s mosque were badly kept. An “audio-synchronised walking tour through the historic walled city” that the ethno-styled house of MG offered with colourfully designed leaflets4 – which featured state-of-the-art portraits of Muslim and Hindu faces in different folkloristic attire and pertinent signs of both religions – seemed like a forlorn bright ray of light in a darkened landscape, indicating the stark contrast between what was and what could be. Beyond the Border It was Naroda Patia that was first on our list, the outskirts north- east of the city centre that had seen the most ruthless violence in 2002 and that Sudhir Chandra, in the same year, had described as a place of “inhumanity to which these dark silhouettes of burned houses bore mute witness”. 5 And it was also Naroda Patia that first demonstrated to us what would become the pattern to be met with in the other places of post-violence Muslim habitation: the power of the majority to create “facts” and the muted and futile struggle of the minority to produce proofs. Waiting close to Ellis Bridge, below a huge billboard that showed, like so many others in the city, Narendra Modi’s smiling face – in this case advertising that Gujarat was the only Indian state where villages were as glittering as the cities and 24-hour electricity supply was provided – we were asked by a food vendor if we knew that this was Narendra Modi, the “saviour” of Gujarat, who was engaging in “so many good things” for the state. Our rickshaw driver, by contrast, immediately spoke of “the border” and offered to take us first to the one and then to the other side, but said he himself would not enter the first. Innumerable tiled Hindu shrines have nearly everywhere in the city replaced and outnumbered the dargahs which used to be common at junctions. Upon entering the Naroda Patia main market our driver, who had introduced himself as Mura Bey, suggested he would wait while we took a walk round what he described as the Hindu area. I was surprised to find at the entrance of the bazaar, a statue of the eldest son of a significant Sindhi saint, and it became obvious that what immediately worked itself out here as well, below the surface of mere Hindu-Muslim antagonism, was the endless story of Partition. Many in the area are descendents of Sindhis who had been expelled from Pakistan. In the residential neighbourhood behind the small bazaar nothing remained of the “rows and rows of burnt houses, with burnt and bent bicycles, scooters and three-wheelers outside” that Sudhir Chandra had described five years before. The area was thoroughly cleared, with some reasonably affluent residences next to poorer houses, which opened after a while into a large empty space, the erased Muslim part, in which now cows sought shade under a single tree and a small Hanuman shrine was the only building. Along the adjacent wall was written in large red letters: “Jai Ambe! Aum! Jai Mahakali! Jai Shri Krishna! Nobody should urinate in this particular place. A strict warning!” One could hardly think of a more grotesque prohibition in a place where many had been butchered and at the same time of a more macabre indication of the resolve to keep it “clean” at any cost. Naroda Patia In contrast to the confident self-representation in the bazaar it was indeed as if someone had turned the volume off when we passed Nurani Masjid and entered the area in which the remaining Muslims of Naroda Patia are now segregated. Low houses, some of them not bigger than huts, huddled along narrow sandy paths. Mura Bey stopped a few young boys, who politely showed us the way to the local branch of the Islami Relief Committee, which was housed in the small school – with young children, just coming out in a surprisingly orderly fashion. The man at the desk waved us in eagerly and introduced himself as Nazir Khan Pathan, teacher and social worker. We learned that the Muslims in Naroda Patia had suffered during the pogrom because they had been (more than elsewhere in the city) exposed to their Hindu neighbours and organised groups of the Sangh parivar. In contrast to places like the old city or Juhapura, where Muslims have since long been in the majority, they had only started to settle in Naroda Patia after the 1970s and numbered around 10,000. As we were still talking, about the complete absence of rehabilitation through the government, the isolated efforts of Muslim organisations and NGOs and the difficulties to get the school running again – which is one of the reasons why Muslim families stay in the vicinity – Nazir Khan seemed not to trust in our attentiveness, even though I was taking notes. He started writing a meticulous description of how the pogrom had started and unfolded. The two page-long report ends with the number of those who Khan felt were under his responsibility and he could not save: “35 young or youth, 45 young ladies, 20 innocent children, 20 senior citizens”. He handed me the paper, which clearly had the character of a testimony, and urged us to also take a worn 2004 issue of Communalism Combat, which has a short report on his life- risking success to save the Hindu children in his tuition class, whom he feared would be mistaken for Muslim children and killed.6 However, the forlorn and isolated existence in Naroda Patia, which, in a sense, accounted for the “Hindu area” as well, represented only a part of the picture. Through Mura Bey we met Ahmed Shaikh, secretary of the local headquarters of the Deobandi Jamiat Ulma-i-Hind off Relief Road in the old city. Shaikh, a fragile elderly man suffering from a severe eye-related ailment that forces him to wear fluorescent sunglasses most of the time, became our guide into a world in which hope and hopelessness have merged to become inseparable. When I asked him about recent written material on the state of the Muslim population he first insisted we meet Gagan Sethi from the Centre for Social Justice (Janvikas), which has its office in the western part of the city and outside Juhapura, not far from the new shopping malls and the sparkling International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKcON) temple in the area that is so aptly called Satellite. Dependence on NGOs The link, as Shaikh Bey’s insistence demonstrated, with the “regular”, “secular” NGOs is vital for the religious Muslim organisations active in relief work, as legal matters and access to state institutions are essential, and the secular NGOs, however odious to the government, can still be less easily stigmatised and sidelined than the Muslim organisations (which includes secular Muslims, as the systematic forcing of the Vikas Adhyayan Kendra in Ahmedabad, headed by activist Sophia Khan, from “Hindu” Narayanpura to “Muslim” Juhapura underlines). 7 This hierarchical order, in which the Muslims are dependent on the (Hindu) secular NGOs and which shows up the traditional, rather benevolent attitude of secularists towards Muslims was evident in our meeting with Sethi, into which Shaikh Bey clearly entered as a petitioner rather than as an equal partner. The contrast between the hidden-away, dilapidated, basically empty headquarters of the Ulma-i- Hind and the well-equipped, bright office of Janvikas could hardly have been bigger, and it was obvious that the two men would under other circumstances never have had much to do with each other. It is not merely the well-established standing of Janvikas that guarantees, in contrast to other active organisations, some non- ignorable yet strenuous agency for justice. It is perhaps also this not always easy cooperation on the basis of a nevertheless common cause, of a shared interpretation of justice and the necessity of participation and inclusion that is devoid of larger metaphysical visions and “bhai-bhai” romanticism and that has apart from Janvikas and the Ulma-i-Hind roped in more than 20 very different organisations, which meet on a regular basis once a month to coordinate their activities, that allows for a glimpse on a viable and realistic model of future interaction in (Gujarati) society. This potentially includes swamis and sadhus of the influential and ubiquitous Swaminarayan sect, patronised by the Modi government, whom the Ulma-i-Hind had already invited to their first post-violence conference, and, as Shaikh Bey pointed out proudly, “they came”! The attempts at reaching out to the Hindu community, despite the horrors suffered, indicates the degree of existential need to prove that Muslims are doing “nothing wrong”. Along with active relief work – that includes the earthquake region of Kutch8 and the reorganisation of the Muslim community through housing, schooling, etc – this is the domain of organisations such as the Ulma-i-Hind and the Jamaat-i- Islami. Janvikas, whilst supporting these efforts, operates more on the legal front. Questioned about the ongoing harassment through the Sangh parivar and the government and the likeliness of future violence, Sethi said that all that was still there on a day to day level and there was no reliable safety at all, but their focus was more the problem of systematised and denied internal displacement,9 random detainments of Muslims under POTA, of which there were still nearly 300 cases (the Modi government has opposed the repeal of POTA in 2004), as well as over 2,000 pending cases of violence. Since the pogrom, around 200 Muslims in the city have dedicated themselves fully to relief work and legal assistance, and more than a thousand can be activated when needed. The absence of a landline phone number on Shaikh Bey’s visiting card is significant: “We only use mobile phones now, nothing else, our phones are never switched off because during the violence nobody could be reached in time, and the violence spread so fast because it was organised over mobile phones”. Madni Nagar Camp After leaving the main road and wobbling for a while along a dirt-road through fields and barren land we reached Madni Nagar, a colony erected by the Ulma-i-Hind that houses nearly 250 families in long rows of identical concrete blocks on ground-level, with 12 square metres per family, including a dark, windowless room, a tiny kitchen and toilet and a small backyard. Madni Nagar is one of today’s 69 so- called “semi-permanent camps” in Gujarat and six around Ahmedabad. After the government proclaimed “normalcy” and closed the refugee camps that had been set up in 2002, they are maintained by NGOs. Altogether they shelter around 25,000 Muslims. Here, the basic struggle is not even to prove that Muslims at large were neither guilty of instigating violence nor of lacking loyalty towards the Indian nation but to prove that they exist at all. The “semi” symbolises the faint hope of being restored at least citizens rights while the “permanent” indicates the more likely possibility of having to come to terms with a deprived life outside “mainstream society”. Non-existence The problem, as Shaikh Bey pointed out, “is not so much the money. We [the Ulma-i-Hind, BO] have over one million members worldwide, and they donate only one rupee a month, so we could build shelters like this colony.” The problem is that “we are not registered by the government”. As Janvikas has documented, in many of the camps including Madni Nagar, self-organisaton has resumed in form of the Antarik Visthapit Heeth Rakshak Samitees, the first demand of which is not any more rehabilitation but to be officially counted. This, most critically, is the precondition for the reissuing of ration cards and voter-IDs, many of which have been burned or lost during the pogrom and never been replaced. The feeling of being systematically reduced to official non-existence became obvious during a meeting with women that took place in a large hall. The hall, Shaikh Bey explained, has been erected recently after it had become clear that the roads back into society were more consistently blocked than after earlier violence. It serves as a community centre where courses in basic skills are held. In another sad irony, the hall itself is thus somewhat a symbol of uneasily accepting the unavoidability of permanence. Apart from the institutionalised non-reachability of the city’s market areas due to the remoteness of the Muslim camps, many jobs that have been traditional Muslim domains, like the sale of fruit and vegetables, have become impossible as vendors cannot push their carts any more into now “cleansed” Hindu neighbourhoods where once their own houses stood. The same context applies for the primary school which was planned on a then still empty ground opposite the hall: the nearest school is too far away, and those who have taken upon them the trouble to go anyway have turned out to be marginalised, discriminated or even attacked by pupils and teachers alike. We found a large group of women sitting on the concrete floor in obvious expectancy and one middle-aged woman, who introduced herself as Sameeha Begum and had apparently been nominated as a speaker told her story, complemented by bits and pieces thrown in by others that ended with an appeal. Her family had lost four members, their house and source of livelihood, a rickshaw. After the pogrom, they could not afford to buy or even rent a new one, and her husband, who had survived with injuries, was too scared and traumatised to even try and get back into the business. Even after five years, the burden of her story was the utter disbelief of what had happened to her and her family, how this could possibly have happened for “no reason” in the land of her father and forefathers and, how it was possible that nobody cared. Madni Nagar brought to consciousness the Sisyphus-character of Janvikas’ work, its race against time, as the camp represented in the most pointed manner the uncompromising politics of exclusion that aims not merely at “undoing” Muslim participation in public resources and, crucially, elections. Especially in view of the small children – many of them obviously already born in Madni Nagar – playing about in the dusty lanes between the concrete blocks, it also bears another and, as it seems, almost inevitable scenario of future Gujarati society, namely, the raising of a whole Muslim generation that is cut off from its history and that is systematically forced to unlearn all skills of interacting with other communities. The Juhapura Camp The whole dimension of today’s paradoxes of Muslim life in Ahmedabad, and their continuous reproduction, however, showed itself in Juhapura, the large district south-west of the city, whose number of inhabitants has swelled to 3.5 lakhs – and if one includes the whole stretch down to Sarkej Roza to nearly seven lakhs – since the pogrom. In fact, Juhapura is probably the largest refugee camp of Gujarat, where Muslims gathered, when a return to their homes was by their neighbours “allowed” only “if they withdrew legal cases, stopped using loudspeakers for the azaan, quietly moved out of certain businesses, and basically learned to live with downcast eyes”.10 We met Iqbal Mirza, head of the local branch of the Jamaat-i-Islami that also maintains a number of camps like Madni Nagar. In contrast, however, to the limited number of their inhabitants – the Ulma-i-Hind, for instance, was able to erect a water tower in Madni Nagar that is now irregularly supplied with water bought from private sources – the vast Juhapura is virtually left to oblivion. “Even if we [the Jamaat-i- Islami, BO] built a water tower here, the demand would be so big we could not satisfy everybody, and competition and fights would break out. We just can’t help them all.” Choice of Camps The choice is thus to live in one of the organised camps cut off from all regular society and be provided with basic facilities or to maintain some illusion of a non-organised settlement and face slow but sure deterioration. And even that is not quite a choice as the camps are basically for those who have lost their homes during the pogrom and have no other place to go to. The same catch-22 applies for education. Mirza, who holds a degree, pointed out that his own children “will not have the option of higher education. We have some primary schools and madrasas here, but all institutions of higher education are outside Juhapura, and they don’t take Muslims. We will have to build our own schools, but then we don’t have enough teachers.” We met a young man, whose story is symptomatic of the continuous and wilful reproduction of Muslim silence and invisibility. A graduate in English literature, he has been jobless for years. To our question on self-organisation in Juhapura he exclaimed cynically, “How? They are asking for moderate Muslim leaders, they are asking for Muslim representatives they can refer to, but the moment somebody raises his voice he is detained. This is not POTA; this is for all sorts of petty accusations. It’s enough if three people meet at a street corner, the police snatch them away on some feeble account. The prisons are full with people who do not even know their case and who never get to see a lawyer. And when they come out – if they come out – they will obviously try and avoid even more to stick their neck out.” There are no publicly accessible numbers on detainments in Gujarat other than POTA cases. Whereas random arrests of Muslims were reported repeatedly in the aftermath of the pogrom11 and are highlighted after violent incidences – for instance, after the demolition of a big dargah in Vadodara in 2006 through the Vadodara Municipal Corporation (VMC)12 – detention as an institutionalised practice has so far hardly been investigated. Reproducing Exclusion Apart from two exceptions, which were the main border roads, there was not a single paved street in Juhupura. Demarcated by police outposts, the lanes are all sandy and dusty. The immense contrast to the expensive designer wear shops and sparkling, marble-floored shopping malls along CG Road and Ashram Road (some of them maintained by the Vaishnava Hare Krishna ISKCON society, next to the Swaminarayan sect the second big Hindu religious organisation operating in Gujarat)13 and the quickly growing amount of department stores in Satellite, where expensive cars have difficulty finding parking spaces and ATM machines encourage consumers to shop, underscored the merciless priority – and its unquestioned acceptance as “deserved by merit” – to keep the obtained resources for a limited Hindu strata of the population that a neo-liberal economy in its easy cooperation with resourceful religious organisations enables. Juhapura does not have a single ATM machine or a bank or even a post office. Beyond barren land, which is partly used as a garbage dump, one can just about see the nice and proper apartment blocks of the adjacent Hindu area. Along one stretch, where Juhapura borders more directly a poorer Hindu neighbourhood, a long wall marks the demarcation that brought to mind the Berlin before 1989. In another section the wall was a bit lower, and we could see – with the Cricket World Cup in full swing at the time – boys playing cricket on both sides of the border. When the ball of the Muslim boys accidentally landed behind the wall, it was not thrown back. Muslim life – or rather existence – in today’s Ahmedabad, but potentially in all Gujarat, is characterised by this trap of getting no reply and of being forced to produce the conditions that in turn provoke even further marginalisation. Even though it has become obvious how uneasy and desperate Muslims are at their exclusion and how strong the urge is to take part while regaining a minimum of dignity – the focus on education, citizens rights and legal justice was most striking in all three places of Muslim habitation we went to, the skilful maintenance of a vicious circle appears unbreakable: the denial of acceptance through the majority and the government, exemplified in the disinterest in proof, creates the increasing necessity of setting up parallel, “own” structures of survival, which inevitably serve, in the manner of self-fulfilling prophecies, as a pretext for the solidification of prejudice – “Muslims don’t integrate”, “Muslims build their own schools to infiltrate children’s minds with jihad”, “Muslim’s loyalty is with Pakistan” – and the increase of exclusion. Speaking Different Languages Gujarat today shows that the main difference between the minority and the majority is not in terms of religion or even economic resources which are mere indexes of a deeper and indeed new difference of thought and terminology. In this sense the problem derives from the fact that they have come to speak “different languages” and to operate in different reference systems that refer to democracy but do not translate into each other. The “tolerable narratives” of the majority, on the other hand, are framed in terms of what thinkers like Jacques Rancière and Colin Crouch have called, with regard to a global context, post-democracy, which signifies the non-abolishment of nominal democracy and its reinterpretation along “negative rights” that “protect the individual against others, especially against the state: rights to sue, rights to property.”14 One of the prominent features of post-democracy is de-politicisation in the sense of a devaluation of the political vis-à-vis a strengthening of policies, the reversal, so to speak, of the anecdote that Rancière mentions with regard to the hierarchical relation between the patricians and the plebeians in ancient Rome that has a particular significance for the situation in Gujarat. For the patricians, who were used to exclude the “nameless” plebeians from their policymaking – or rather: whose policymaking was intrinsically dependent on the plebeians’ exclusion – there came a time when their practice was challenged not by the plebeians’ martial revolt but by their proving of having precisely the capacity that the patricians had claimed only for themselves: the capacity of logos, of speaking and of being counted. “In short, they act as creatures that have names”.15 “There is politics, because those who do not have the right to be counted as speaking creatures count themselves as partakers and establish a community by collectivising injustice”.16 Legitimising Exclusion Gujarat today can be understood as a place where the reversal of this process, the de-collectivising of injustice and denying the disadvantaged the right of being counted as speaking members, is in a global context most pointed and literally enacted. While post- democracy describes basically a policy of the status quo that rejects all critique as anti-democratic and potentially terrorist, whose administrative characteristic is, according to Rancière, the uncontrolled agency of the police (as a self-proclaimed protector and executor of policies) and which appears to be a post-disciplinarian society by transferring discipline from an authority into the individual (resulting, for instance, in commonly accepted “tolerable narratives”), in Gujarat these features are complemented not merely by clearly undemocratic measures within a still democratic framework. The most symbolic aspect here is probably that it is not any more elections that are abolished or manipulated but unwanted – political – voters that are with a fine range of policies and strategies made “undone” in order to naturalise a culturally majoritarian electorate. The main problem with the above-mentioned reversal from the political to policymaking is that it is, in the same way as was the process towards politics in ancient Rome, perceived as a progress that classifies demands for political rights and justice not merely as “exaggerated” or undemocratic, but also as somewhat outdated. This attitude reaches well beyond different political parties and makes the Congress, as has become palpable over the past years, less and less a realistic political alternative. While it can employ a differing political rhetoric, it cannot – and probably does not want to – in effect alienate a majority that perceives itself as progressive by defending its liberation from the ideological (political) aspects of democracy and that represents itself as “just living it”. Post- democracy, in interaction with a liberalised economy, is thus able to legitimise exclusion more effectively than a mere authoritarian regime, as much as post-democracy and pogroms and genocide do not necessarily exclude each other if it can be agreed (rather than proven) that the victims were enemies of democracy or “terrorists” (subtext: that they were a hindrance to economic progress). Given, however, the basic questioning of teleological progress that the contemporary “post” in front of modernity’s classic terms signifies and the fact that those who defend injustice today do it eventually as much at the cost of their own progress (and sanity) as did the patricians 2000 years ago, the chance is to considerably shorten the time span of change. To understand the “reversal of the reversal” as progress is the only possibility for democracy.17 Notes 1 Forthcoming, The Televised Community: Culture, Politics and the Market of Visual Representation in India, Routledge, New Delhi/London/ New York. 2 Prashant Jha, 2006, ‘Gujarat as Another Country: The Making and Reality of a Fascist Realm', in Himal Southasian, Vol. 19/7, at: www.himalmag.com/2006/october/cover_story.htm . 3 Introduction to Elisabeth Reichart’s work at: http://webpub.allegheny.edu/employee/l/ldemerit/reichtrans . html. 4 The tour is also advertised on the House of MG-web site at: www.houseofmg.com/ . 5 Sudhir Chandra (2002), ‘A Lament for a Decade’ in K N Panikkar and Sukumar Muralidharan (eds), 2003, Communalism, Civil Society and the State. Ayodhya 1992 – Gujarat 2002: Reflections on a Decade of Turbulence, Safdar Hashmi Memorial Trust (SAHMAT), New Delhi, p 12. 6 ‘Good News from Gujarat: A Tribute to the Extraordinary Deeds of “Ordinary” People at the Height of the Genocide – Gujarat 2002’, Communalism Combat, June 2004, Year 10, No 98, p 12. 7 See Jha 2006. 8 See Islami Relief Committee, Gujarat (Jamaat-i-Islami), Horror of Earthquake and Genocide: A Journey of Pain and Relief, Report up to 2004 (B-4, Karishma Complex, Sarni Society, Juhapura, Ahmedabad 380 055); Report on Jamiat Children Village, Rehabilitation and Educational Project of Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, published by the headquarters in 1, Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, New Delhi 110 002. 9 Centre for Social Justice, The Uprooted. Caught between Existence and Denial: A Document on the State of the Internally Displaced in Gujarat (Centre for Social Justice, C-105, Royal Chinmay, Bodakdev, Vastrapur, Ahmedabad 380 054), The Uprooted, p 6. 10 Centre for Social Justice, The Uprooted, p 6. 11 See, for instance, the Human Rights Watch Report, 2002, Impunity in the Aftermath at: http://hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-06.htm. 12 See People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL) Report, 2007, Vadodara Violence on Gujarat’s “Gaurav” Day, Promilla and Co Publishers/Bibliophile South Asia, New Delhi/Chicago. 13 See www.iskcon.com/. 14 Colin Crouch, 2004, Post-Democracy, Polity Press, Cambridge, p 13. 15 Jacques Rancière, 2002, Das Unvernehmen. Politik und Philosophie, Frankfurt/Main: Suhrkamp, p 36 (translation mine). 16 Ibid, p 38. 17 I thank Reshma Jain for her strong support and her fast help with translations. Britta Ohm (ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de), social anthropologist, teaches at Europa-University Viadrina, Frankfurt/Oder, Germany Am 18.10.2008 um 12:35 schrieb Partha Dasgupta: > Hi, > > As a follower of this list, would like to say that the discussion > (?) is > getting a bit ridiculous. > > I do not think the level of responses I have been seeing from many > people > who have been great contributors (whether I agree with the point of > view or > not) is worth reading now, and responses are now being done to > irrelevant > sub-sections of a mail completely aside fro the topic. > > Do not wish to name anyone, but I do hope all of us respect the list > and the > time that all of us spend reading mails. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................. > > On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tapas Ray > wrote: > >> I do not remember seeing any abusive language in Prabhakar's posts. >> That he agrees ideologically with the really abusive ones should not >> be reason enough to lump him with them. Incidentally, Chanchal is not >> just abusive. She has even threatened physical violence against not >> only "us" but also "our children". Is this going to be tolerated? >> Please see below. >> >> 2008/10/17 chanchal malviya : >> >>> We will wait for the time.. If not you, your children will surely >>> have to >> answer to your anti-national concept of Secularism and anti- >> Hindutva... >> Because you are betraying the very character of this motherland - >> Hinduism.... >>> >> >> >> 2008/10/18 Prabhakar Singh : >>> Aarti has written without even reading my mails.I dare her to >>> point out >> even one instance where I have used any abusive language so far.In >> her >> description she has been using only mild abuses by her standards >> and now we >> have to be prepared to tolerate her real hard abuses.If the >> Administrator/Moderator does not wish to take action against such >> people, >> he/she should be kind enough to delist me and save me from such >> abuses.We >> are respectable people not used to this kind of abuse and insult. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Aarti Sethi >>> To: Aditya Raj Kaul >>> Cc: sarai list >>> Sent: Saturday, 18 October, 2008 2:37:02 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY? >>> >>> Dear Crybabies, >>> >>> This is fantastic. After two years of spewing disgusting vitriol at >> anyone >>> who is not a right wing Hindu apologist, you now turn around and >>> urge the >>> moderator to intervene on your behalf! Why? Because Shuddha called >> Chanchal >>> a 'moron'. 'Moron' 'fool' 'idiot' and 'nonsense' according to >>> Prabhakar >> is >>> "filthy language". I actually thought it so mild compared to the >>> filth >> that >>> routinely issues from the likes of Chanchal, Aditya, Vedavati, >>> Prabhakar >> and >>> radhukarajen (who has thankfully left us), that I really don't see >>> why >> you >>> are so upset. Perhaps because Shuddha is not trading in invective, >>> he is >>> simply calling Chanchal out on his ridiculous views. >>> >>> The trouble is you think that you have a divine right to say >>> whatever you >>> wish to the "psuedo-secularists" right? Because by in large we are >>> well-mannered people, unwilling for the most part to indulge in >>> invective-trading no matter how much we are provoked. We care a >>> great >> deal >>> about this list, about rational discussion and so on. So even >>> though you >>> routinely abuse everyone's intelligence, time, faith and beleifs in >> sexist, >>> racist, misogynist prose, we solidier on. Trying to steer the >> conversation >>> in other directions, knowing that your immaturity and stupidity >>> should >> not >>> be held against you. But sometimes everyone's patience runs out when >>> confronted with evidence of such blatant ignorance at the service of >>> prejudice that they are forced to react in exasperation. Thus >>> Shuddha >> called >>> Chanchal a moron when Chanchal made the astounding statement that >>> Hindus >> do >>> not have special personal laws when in fact the most rudimentary >> knowledge >>> of Indian law would reveal that every "community" has separate >>> personal >>> laws. However in this case I think Shuddha is wrong. >>> >>> Here is a small sample of Chanchal's views on a variety of issues: >>> >>> Chanchal on Muslim women: >>> >>> "He..he.. does it matter... you marry four or as many as >>> possible... four >> is >>> from your own religion.. and the rest is that your Right hand >> possesses..." >>> >>> "You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of >>> having >>> more than one wife.." >>> >>> Chanchal on Hindu Women: >>> >>> "This is the basic culture of Hindus... The events that you talk >>> about >>> (mistreatment of women) takes place with girls and women who have >> discarded >>> their religion.. they want freedom like western girl and they are >>> facing >>> problems alike western girls... I am very clear on a simple point >>> - if a >>> girl or woman knows to have respect and honor for herself, no >>> Hindus will >>> ever try to even look at her even >>> in disguise - this is the true meaning of Satitva" >>> >>> Chanchal on Indian History: >>> >>> "They [Muslims] looted, massacred and raped Indians (Hindus) in >>> the name >> of >>> Infidels. Captured all our temples and palaces including Taj Mahal >>> and >>> declared that it is their property.... >>> >>> Chanchal on International relations: >>> >>> "The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to >>> India >> (all >>> HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India." >>> >>> Chanchal on Art: >>> >>> "I am sure, a person who paints his motherland nude, must have >>> done much >>> more nonsense to his mother and sister (though he may not be >>> exposing it >> to >>> the world)..." >>> >>> Chanchal on Sex: >>> >>> "Sex is nothing but the power of nature to brood." >>> >>> Chanchal on Secularism: >>> >>> "Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains >>> secular as >>> long as Hindus are in majority." >>> "Let India be a pure HIndu country again... For Muslims or >>> Christians - >> all >>> are safe in the hand of Hindus only..." >>> >>> Shuddha you are wrong to have called Chanchal a moron when it is >>> obvious >> we >>> are in the presence of a deeply learned person. I would request >>> you to >>> immediately apologise. >>> >>> Warmly >>> Aarti >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Seems the SARAI Moderator WAKES UP only when some particular >>>> members are >> in >>>> trouble in an argument and have no words left. This is most >>>> shocking on >>>> part >>>> of so called List Administrators.. >>>> >>>> So called Freedom Lovers....Pathetic Liberals....in dreams of >>>> their own. >>>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 From chiarapassa at gmail.com Fri Oct 17 13:26:45 2008 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:56:45 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] International Artist Call for "ART TECH MEDIA 08" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: - Please forward - International Artist Call for "ART TECH MEDIA 08" ART TECH MEDIA is a Meeting Platform for all sectors linked to art and new media for reflecting upon, analysing and debating across disciplines for the preparation of proposals related to cultural policy, coordination and optimisation of resources, artistic production and research and their promotion at a global level. Art, Science, Technology, Innovation and Society. ......................................................................................................................................................................................... > registration form> enter ......................................................................................................................................................................................... Submissions will be accepted from the following categories: A - Video art - Net-art - 2D & 3D Computer Animation - Blog, videoblog - Creation for mobile platforms - Digital Music - Videodance B - Digital Communities - Geospatial storytelling - Artificial Life - Software art - Transgenic art - Generative art C - Videogames - Robotic E - Open Source ......................................................................................................................................................................................... > registration form> enter ......................................................................................................................................................................................... GENERAL REGULATIONS - Works must have been produced after January 1st, 2007. - The number of submissions is not limited. - Works may be presented in any language. However, a transcript of dialogues must be included in either Spanish or English, - The organization reserves the rights to use parts of the works for media broadcasting, within the promotional framework of artechmedia. - Following the process of selection based on abstratcs, all participants will be notified in writing of the result and the required format for the presentation of their work, preferably on DVD. - Authors will be responsible for copyright of their works. - Works selected will be exhibited in artechmedia. - A electronic catalogue will be produced in Spanish and English, including all the works. - Artists with works selected shall agree to assign a copy to artechmedia, which may be used in the subsequent exhibitions. - The organization is not responsible for the content of works in order to preserve freedom. Projects: - Those interested in submitting work in these categories must send a completed entry form. - A part from the entry form, those interested in taking part in video art and computer animation must also send a DVD with their work to: ART TECH MEDIA c/Méndez Nuñez 102, 6ºD 38001 S/C Tenerife. Canary Island. Spain - Digital Music must be sent both in digital format and as a hard copy by post. ART TECH MEDIA c/Méndez Nuñez 102, 6ºD 38001 S/C Tenerife. Canary Island. Spain DEADLINE : 31th october 2007 SELECTION AND JURY - Works presented will be selected by a committee of the organization. - In each category a jury composed of experts will select the works. - Jury's decision is final, and is not open to appeal. SELECTED WORKS must include: - Technical credits. - Technical requirements for its showing. - Two colour photographs of every work sent. - A short biography of author or representative organization. - A transcript of dialogues in spanish or english. - All works must include in their front page: the work's title, the delivery address, and the data of author or representative organization. - In case of not providing a correct delivery address, the organization will not be responsible for the works. - Submission of a work implies the acceptance of these regulations. > registration form> enter www.artechmedia.net/CORDOBA_08.htm -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.net http://twitter.com/jogador Skype: ideasonair _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Fri Oct 17 14:45:09 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:15:09 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Call=3A_soundart?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_for_SoundLAB_VI?= Message-ID: <20081017111509.19F2F36B.C2A2711C@192.168.0.3> SoundLAB - sonic art project environments http://soundlab.newmediafest.org informs: 1. Call for soundart for SoundLAB VI new extended deadline: 31 December 2008 2. SoundLAB V on Canariasmediafest 2008 and Sound: Space 2008 ---------------------------------------------- 1. Call for entries: SoundLAB VI - "soundPOOL" - sound compositions - a challenge for imagination - SoundLAB is looking for its 6th edition to be launched in March 2009, sound compositions which represent a real challenge for human imagination All details, the complete call, the regulations and entry form can be found here http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=242 ---------------------------------------------- 2. SoundLAB V - "soundSTORY - sound as a tool for storytelling" - launched in 2007 http://soundlab.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=135 50 soundSTORIES and additional soundart contributions from Spain curated by Ruben Garcia and South Africa curated by Julian Jonker will be presented on Canariasmediafest 2008 - in the section "mediaart" 28 October -1 November 2008 http://www.canariasmediafest.org SoundLAB V - will further be presented during the symposion Sound: Space 2008 on 1 November 2008 at MediaLAB South Hill Park Bracknell/UK read more on http://www.sound-space.info/?p=28 ------------------------------------------------ SoundLAB - sonic art project environments http://soundlab.newmediafest.org corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne www.nmartproject.net directed by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne Visit also SoundLAB I -V on - http://soundlab.newmediafest.org ----------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 12:41:36 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:41:36 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Take life as it is with joys and sorrows with equanimity Message-ID: <410044.37760.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Prabhakar,  While my empathies are with you on your feeling sick about the type of different response you see on the readers list, the spiritual side in us show us the way forward, take the life as it is, the brickbats and boukets are part of the life, neither shall we get flattered by the praise, nor shall we shrink at the heap of abuses, it is all taken with equanimty for the good of the life in society that we live in. Shirking away from our duties because of any abuses is not the way. It is bound to be there in life, sorrows are part f life.Only caution to have is not to hurt others as far as possible, but if inevitable, show where they belong, dustbin of time.! Respectful greetings to sensitive minds in the list. Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From rajeshr at csds.in Mon Oct 20 13:03:04 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:03:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seminar- `Rituals of Respect: Sufis and Secularists in Senegal' Message-ID: *Thursday, 23rd October, 2008* *Alfred C. Stepan* will speak on *Rituals of Respect: Sufis and Secularists in Senegal* at *2:30 PM* in the *Seminar Room, CSDS, 29 Rajpur Road, Delhi – 110 054* Alfred C. Stepan (Ph.D., Columbia University, 1969) taught at Yale University for thirteen years (1969-82), later was Dean of the School of International and Public Affairs (SIPA) at Columbia University (1983–1991), the first Rector of Central European University (1993-1996), the Gladstone Professor of Government at All Souls College, Oxford University (1996-1999), and is now the Wallace Sayre Professor of Government at SIPA and Director of the Center for the Study of Democracy, Toleration and Religion at Columbia. Stepan is also a fellow at the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (1991–present) and a member of the British Academy (1997–present). Stepan's teaching and research interests include comparative politics, theories of democratic transitions, federalism, and the world's religious systems, and democracy. His publications include: Alfred Stepan, Juan Linz, and Yogendra Yadav, *Democracies in Multinational Societies: India and Other Polities* (Johns Hopkins: 2007); Stepan, *Arguing Comparative Politics*(Oxford: 2001); Linz and Stepan, *Problems of Democratic Transition and Consolidation: Southern Europe, South America, and Post Communist Europe* (Johns Hopkins: 1996); and Linz and Stepan, eds., *The Breakdown of Democratic Regimes* (Johns Hopkins: 1978). His recent publications relating to religion and politics include "The World's Religious Systems and Democracy: Crafting the Twin Tolerations", in his Arguing Comparative Politics, "An 'Arab' More Than 'Muslim' Electoral Gap" Journal of Democracy (July 2003) and a Forum debating this in JoD (October 2004). Working with Yogendra Yadav and Juan Linz, Stepan helped prepare the questions on religion and politics for the 50,000 person survey of the five countries of South Asia in 2005-6 and Stepan and Linz cooperate with Amaney Jamal, the PI, in the design of a Pew-sponsored Arab Barometer study. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 14:46:06 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:46:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? Message-ID: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> When will Muslims join the mainstream? By M.V. Kamath Organiser It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the Indian mainstream. Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But then whose fault is it. If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they managed to secure 49—not bad. Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied religions. There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to win their favour. Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but only seven could succeed. Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that you want to stay separate. Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic scholars can take a leaf from his book. Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be shunned like the very devil. We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= 150&page=12 --- ..................................................................... .................................... http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past Mayank Patel Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and reconciliation. However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. There are many holes in this hypothesis. Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. Related story: Forgive, not Forget History @ http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% e2%80%93-history/ From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Oct 20 16:29:08 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:29:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Apology of a Recidivist Intellectual Message-ID: <78CCC64E-71D8-4433-B43E-5F2ADD115B43@sarai.net> Dear all, Apologies for this mail, which should have come earlier, for a variety of personal reasons, and for the terrible misdemeanour of calling anyone a 'moron'. Let me add that I have been touched by the acute sensitivity that the patriotic pro-hindutva and nationalist subscribers on this list have for each other. It is genuinely moving to see such concern for what can be seen as assaults on their dignity and person by someone as crass and insensitive like myself. My heart goes out to them. However, let me, while offering my sincere apologies for any offence caused, take this opportunity to clarify certain things. This list has frequently seen the term 'intellectual' hurled out at people as an accusation. And it is our 'patriotic', 'pro-Hindutva' and 'Indian nationalist' fellow list members who often use the word 'intellectual' as if it were as pointed jibe. As if it were a crime or a perversion to think and to base one's life's work on thought and consideration. I have often been told that I am an 'intellectual', especially when I patiently try to argue a point which is never rebutted with a counter-argument, but with a series of ad hominem attacks, that bear no relation either to the facts under dispute, or to the substance, logical consistency or ethical implications of the arguments brandished as weapons. I do not dispute this tag, I merely try to understand what is wrong with being an intellectual. I had once even asked, long ago on this list (after a particularly intense round of patriotic 'intellectual bashing'), whether living and earning ones living by the labours of one's mind, reason or imagination, with ideas, concepts (which in my limited understanding, is what being an intellectual means) was in anyway criminal or unhealthy. Unfortunately, I did not receive an adequate answer, (in fact I received no answer to my sincerely expressed question). I now realize that I did not receive an answer plainly because it was obvious. Being an 'intellectual' is something that several people on this list (particularly those who stand on the 'right' side of things) would consider as being shameful, otherwise they would not use the term 'intellectual' in a meaningfully pejorative sense, which they do. Laying claim to 'intellectual' activities makes one especially vulnerable to doubts and hesitations about things that many people like to feel certain about. An intellectual, in particular, sometimes has difficulty in committing himself or herself to the certainty and truth claim of a nationalist project, or other assertions of identity because he or she is plagued by corrosive doubts about the categories deployed by nationalism and its derivatives. It is this doubt that stands like a wall betweeen the aggressive assertion of notions of self, ideas of community, nation and identity. Just as the congenitally deaf or mute cannot appreciate the bliss of legible vocalized speech, so too, an intellectual like myself has hitherto not been able to realize the immense worth of being blessed with an absence of 'intellectual' faculties. My doubts overwhelm any possibility of certainty. And so, just as, in Lawrence Liang's excellent recent postings, in which we see the prosecutor advance the remarkably lucid plea that 'homosexuals' are anti-social because 'homosexuality' is not 'heterosexuality', we must accept, by the same logical principle, (which also covers the same ground as 'muslims are bad people because they are not hindus') the argument that 'intellectuals' are criminally inclined, well, because they are not 'morons'. I am afraid, that like many people who see nothing wrong with homosexuals, muslims and intellectuals, I too must confess my crimes. I hope that list members will indulge and forgive a brief 'self critical' digression, which is an intrinsic part of my sincere apology to Sri Sri Chanchal Malviya and all those offended by my previous posting. (Hindutva-vadi's have a great deal to learn, incidentally, from Stalinists and Maoists, who were and remain just as suspicious and hostile to 'intellectuals' and often subject them, to lengthy ordeals of 'self-criticism' for the sin or the shame of being, 'intellectual') Now, for instance, if (by way of response to Aditya Raj Kaul's recent forward of M.V. Kamath's islamophobic text) I were to point out that a believing Muslim's objection to singing 'Vande Mataram' or 'Hail to the Mother' (which is an unequivocal salutation to a particular incarnation of a Hindu mother goddess, and this is evident if you read the words of its text, as written by its author, Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay) is an echo of a believing Hindu's objection to either having to say, or to hear, 'Aazadi ka Matlab Kya, La Illaha, Illallah' (what does freedom mean, there is no god but god), a slogan that disturbs Shri Shri Chanchal Malviya so much, then no doubt I would be told, that I am behaving with the deviousness particular to intellectuals. I am indeed, needlessly and perversely, showing how two phenomena, can be considered as identical based on a structural analyses of the reasons why a parallel set of objections are brought to bear on them by two mutually exclusive constituencies. My sin would be all the worse because as far as I am concerned, since I am neither a believing Hindu nor a believing Muslim, I couldn't care less about how believing Hindus and Muslims continued to confuse either a) territory with a goddess unknown to me or, b) freedom with declarations of fidelity towards a deity towards whom I am indifferent. All I care for is that people, especially me, should not have to do things they do not want to do. This includes singing 'Vande Mataram' which I do not sing, because my mother is a human being whom I love and cherish, nor a state that i pay taxes to or a goddess who controls my destiny. This also includes identifying freedom with the acknowledgement of the absence of Allah as much as with his presence in anyone's consciousness. This includes whispering to myself, on occasion, in the spirit of Sarmad, the agnostic and free thinking Jewish-Muslim sufi poet of eighteenth century Delhi, (whose memory is dear to me), 'Azadi ka Matlab kya, La Illaha' (and so omitting, like Sarmad, to say ' illallah' which changes everything). Freedom or 'Azaadi' would be hollow for me if it did not include the right to drop the 'but God', if one so wished, afer saying 'There is no God'. The muslim zealots of eighteenth century Delhi decapitated Sarmad for his quiet reticence with regard to 'illallah', just as many hindu zealots of today would no doubt have no hesitation in endorsing violence upon those reluctant to say 'vande matram'. I say this in anticipation of my patriotic fellow list members rising to the occasion, with yet another round of 'intellectual bashing' because who but an 'intellectual' would defend the right to remain silent while 'Vande Mataram' is belted out. The sneer with which this word is written is not at all invisible, or inaudible. So, I thought, that since begin an intellectual is clearly a sickness at best and a sin at worst, calling a moron a moron would be paying an 'anti-intellectual' a compliment. After all, they might take great offence to being called 'intellectual'. In fact I did some thinking about what it is to be a 'moron'. I apologize (again in advance) for the devious, seditious, anti- national, un-patriotic, deeply insensitive 'thought crime' of having looked up some etymological resources while writing this, (and the previous offensive post) and this is what I found. -------- On the word 'MORON' The word MORON (foolish, stupid, idiot) derives from the Latin 'morus', which is a transliteration of the Greek μωρός (moros; fοοlish, stupid). In modern Greek derivatives of μωρός continue to be used for a wide variety of words, amongst them α) μωρός: stupid, foolish [moros] β) μωρία: folly, stupidity [moria] γ) μωρό: baby [moro] δ) μωρολογία: nonsense, idle talk [morologia] ε) μωραίνω: stupefy, drive mad [moreno] In 1911, French psychologists Alfred Binet and Theodore Simon created the first modern intelligence test, which measured intelligence (hence the "intelligence quotient". or IQ) based on whether children could accomplish tasks like pointing to their nose (honestly) and counting pennies. The concept of "IQ" followed soon after, and psychologists fell so deeply in love with the scientific nature of the tests that they created classification systems. Any child with an IQ of above 70 was considered "normal," while those with scores above 130 were considered "gifted." To classify scores below 70, psychologists invented a nomenclature of retardation. Those with IQs between 51 and 70 were called morons. Morons had adequate learning skills to complete menial tasks and communicate. Imbeciles, with IQs between 26 and 50, never progressed past a mental age of about six. And the lowest of all were the idiots, with IQ between 0 and 25, who were characterized by poor motor skills, extremely limited communication, and little response to stimulus. Today the classification system is one category broader - moron, imbecile, and idiot have been replaced with mild, moderate, severe, and profound retardation - and diagnostic factors other than IQ are considered in making a diagnosis. ------ Now, I said 'Chancal, you moron' with a very precise intention. It was not meant as a term of abuse, rather, as a term that recognized Chanchal's formidable abilities. As an intellectual, I confess to the terrible crime of being partial to thinking carefully about the words I choose. Chanchal is clearly a person who can abundantly communicate his antipathy towards people who do not share his 'Hindutva' agenda and can people complete the menial task of hitting 'send' after having composed yet another vitriolic mail. So, I though, calling him a moron, would be totally appropriate to my assessment of his intellectual abilities. Calling him an imbecile or an idiot would be clearly imprecise. He is far more intelligent and lucid, (no offence meant) in my opinion, in comparison to an imbecile or an idiot. However, I have now realized, that the real problem and objection on this list (on the part of our 'hindutva-vadi' and 'indian nationalist' or 'patriotic' list members) is towards being considered an 'intellectual' (except, of course, if you can imitate the semanticl acrobatics of Praveen Swami). Any unqualified suggestion towards intellectual proclivities (even if empirically sustainable) is insulting in and of itself. Hence, I apologize for the offence of inadvertently insulting Chanchal Malviya by calling him a 'moron' and imputing to him or her thereby a degree of intellect he or she clearly does not have and has no desire to possess. If the word 'moron' which does indicate a borderline ability to marshall 'intellectual' resources, is deemed offensive, it can easily replaced by any one of the two other words ('imbecile' and 'idiot' that are part of the (now largely disused) Binet-Simon diagnostic scale). Since I do not wish to commit myself to further inaccuracy, I invite Chanchal Malviya to choose whichever of the two words he or she feels is more in keeping with his/her distance from the shameful state of being an 'intellectual'. With an abject apology for the condition of being a recidivist 'intellectual', which, try as hard as I might, I seem not to be able to repair, I appeal, if not to the understanding, then at least to the mercy of those who are lucky to be morons, (or even better) imbeciles and idiots. Truly, this blissful state is their patrimony. I can only feel envious of their confidence in themselves. regards, Shuddha. From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 16:33:39 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 04:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <954839.56265.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Aditya Thanks for forwarding the Organizer article. It is fallacious to assume that Muslims are not part of the mainstream. Firstly, what is mainstream? If it is some kind monolithic superhighway expecting everyone to follow a jet speed, then why does everyone need to enter it? In India, despite having such superhighways we still have bullock carts and camel carts slowly traversing all the wrong and right paths and no one minds. What I mean it, let us first define what is mainstream? Secondly, why does representations in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha become the yardstick of any community's progress? That's really absurd. How about the representation in business, corporations, health sector, education, arts, sciences, music, literature, media, motor mechanics, academics, manufacturing, civil services, sports? Is there any sector among the above which is not represented by Muslims? In some of them in fact, they have done exceptionally well. Yes, their proportions maybe less than what it should be, but there are several reasons for it: (A) They certainly need to do better than what they have done so far, and (B) there is some amount of bias in corporations and other institutions against Muslims (please don't get wild on this - its a well-known fact). But yes, even that bias can be fought if you struggle harder. It is stupidity again to assume that you are mainstream only if you can sing Vande Matram. No one should be forced to prove one's love for the mother land simply by singing a poem. My children and many other Muslim children in Delhi happily go to mainstream schools where they start the day with Hindu prayers, and I don't mind that. Prophet Muhammad has said that to love your mother land is a sign of faith (Iman). So, loving your country is part of religion too for Muslims. But unfortunately, the media (such as Organizer) will never highlight such positive aspects of the community. I believe in (and agree with) India's constitution, which I hope every mainstream Indian does. The constitution defines India as a secular country, and gives everyone the right to follow their own religion, culture, language and norms. Singing Vande Matram (as far as I know) is not an essential item in the constitution. Through that song, you can pledge your love and respect to the country. If I want to express my love and respect to Mother India in Urdu, Bengali or Kannada, I have the right to do that (because expressing something in your mother tongue brings out your emotions better). If I find Vande Mataram's sanskrit too difficult to follow, why can't I sing a similar song in Assamese for instance? Many "Muslim" schools in India start their day with Iqbal's Sare jahan se achchha - can that song be considered less in patriotism than Vande Mataram? Also, having a Muslim President or vice-president or Prime Minister is the least of Muslims' concern today. It does not mean anything. It is the middle level secretariat that runs the govt and this country. That's the sector that needs reforms and a better representation of all communities. Yousuf Saeed (Sorry, I didn't mean to write all this to you Aditya - I know you only forwarded the message - but it is meant for everyone). --- On Mon, 10/20/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 2:46 PM > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > By M.V. Kamath > > Organiser > > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other > reactionary > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and > threatening to > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine > to sing > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw > from the > Indian mainstream. > > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one > Minister of > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate > Muslim > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in > western > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only > alienate > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical > grounds is bad > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting > more > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what > it > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the > medieval > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are > under- > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok > Sabha. But > then whose fault is it. > > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on > being > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular > support. Past > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails > Muslims > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the > last > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number > of seats > they should normally deserve proportionate to their > population were > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, > forfeited > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives > apart > and stays apart from the majority community how can it > possibly win > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha > elections, if > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should > have got > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok > Sabha > elections, the population percentage remained the > same—but the > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the > Muslims won > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the > third Lok > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should > have > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number > of seats > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, > though > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 > seats they > managed to secure 49—not bad. > > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the > number of > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the > tenth to > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 > seats but > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims > joined > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. > Muslims got > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the > CPM, four > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local > parties. > > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian > ideas and > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people > suspect of > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes > by putting > their women in burqas and sending their children to > madrasas when > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools > to be > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority > and allied > religions. > > There is another lesson that they should learn which is > that hating > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo > Prasad > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help > them. They > will continue to remain estranged from the majority > community, no > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put > forth to > win their favour. > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of > Muslims > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan > Mishra, a > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent > figure > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in > Mainstream > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular > party > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 > could win. > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in > 1998 but > only seven could succeed. > > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim > citizens > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, > serving people > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in > the Shah > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an > ISI-financed > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they > doom themselves > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame > the > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to > Muslims, the > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in > yourselves that > you want to stay separate. > > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out > the > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue > to adhere > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are > not > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are > not > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like > Meghavati or > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are > they > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency > notes. An > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own > Indian > artists to shame; but here in India a section of > reactionary Muslims > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram > because > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to > Durga. > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had > his > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous > Islamic > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand > to > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser > Islamic > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking > their cue > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is > not > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. > Muslims > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a > democracy and > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to > want to > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live > under a > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It > should be > shunned like the very devil. > > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote > belongs to > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or > community. Sareh > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding > mission. > Then everything will fall in its place and—who > knows—the time may > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves > may vote > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime > Minister? > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > > 150&page=12 --- > ..................................................................... > .................................... > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > Mayank Patel > > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past > wrong > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to > Germany and > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged > past > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their > action > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of > truth and > reconciliation. > > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than > generous > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist > etc. who > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies > who have > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf > of Indian > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection > tactic > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like > partition. > > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond > reasonable > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single > agenda > of partition. Partition became possible only because > overwhelming > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that > election. > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments > favoring > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of > shooting > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with > shooters. > > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims > should not be > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and > cleverly presumes > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A > course > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s > mistake could > never imply culpability of present generation. On the > contrary, > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed > fallen far > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve > communal > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million > strong Indian > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 > 0would not wish > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is > also certain > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence > is quite > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims > are 165 > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over > India"s > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does > not > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and > reconciliation. On > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife > if not > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of > denial > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and > allies who > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims > are not > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts > this alleged > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian > Muslims > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and > distortion. > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past > mistakes. > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement > can often > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can > never be > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, > Indian > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in > massi ve > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who > favor > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts > innocence of > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes > provide allies > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. > More-over, > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over > reliance > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own > ideological beef > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters > worse. > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and > changing > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of > wrongdoing > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > > Related story: > > Forgive, not Forget History @ > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > e2%80%93-history/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 16:50:26 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:50:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <954839.56265.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <954839.56265.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810200420h5fe00d8asa7dee7d8fa193a09@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf bhai, Thanks indeed for your e-mail. Though I may or may not agree with some points here and there in your post; but I respect your opinion on this important issue. Many Thanks again. Keep writing in... Regards Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/20/08, Yousuf wrote: > > Dear Aditya > > Thanks for forwarding the Organizer article. > > It is fallacious to assume that Muslims are not part of the mainstream. > Firstly, what is mainstream? If it is some kind monolithic superhighway > expecting everyone to follow a jet speed, then why does everyone need to > enter it? In India, despite having such superhighways we still have bullock > carts and camel carts slowly traversing all the wrong and right paths and no > one minds. What I mean it, let us first define what is mainstream? > > Secondly, why does representations in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha become the > yardstick of any community's progress? That's really absurd. How about the > representation in business, corporations, health sector, education, arts, > sciences, music, literature, media, motor mechanics, academics, > manufacturing, civil services, sports? Is there any sector among the above > which is not represented by Muslims? In some of them in fact, they have done > exceptionally well. Yes, their proportions maybe less than what it should > be, but there are several reasons for it: (A) They certainly need to do > better than what they have done so far, and (B) there is some amount of bias > in corporations and other institutions against Muslims (please don't get > wild on this - its a well-known fact). But yes, even that bias can be fought > if you struggle harder. > > It is stupidity again to assume that you are mainstream only if you can > sing Vande Matram. No one should be forced to prove one's love for the > mother land simply by singing a poem. My children and many other Muslim > children in Delhi happily go to mainstream schools where they start the day > with Hindu prayers, and I don't mind that. Prophet Muhammad has said that to > love your mother land is a sign of faith (Iman). So, loving your country is > part of religion too for Muslims. But unfortunately, the media (such as > Organizer) will never highlight such positive aspects of the community. > > I believe in (and agree with) India's constitution, which I hope every > mainstream Indian does. The constitution defines India as a secular country, > and gives everyone the right to follow their own religion, culture, language > and norms. Singing Vande Matram (as far as I know) is not an essential item > in the constitution. Through that song, you can pledge your love and respect > to the country. If I want to express my love and respect to Mother India in > Urdu, Bengali or Kannada, I have the right to do that (because expressing > something in your mother tongue brings out your emotions better). If I find > Vande Mataram's sanskrit too difficult to follow, why can't I sing a similar > song in Assamese for instance? Many "Muslim" schools in India start their > day with Iqbal's Sare jahan se achchha - can that song be considered less in > patriotism than Vande Mataram? > > Also, having a Muslim President or vice-president or Prime Minister is the > least of Muslims' concern today. It does not mean anything. It is the middle > level secretariat that runs the govt and this country. That's the sector > that needs reforms and a better representation of all communities. > > Yousuf Saeed > > (Sorry, I didn't mean to write all this to you Aditya - I know you only > forwarded the message - but it is meant for everyone). > > > > > > --- On Mon, 10/20/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > > Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 2:46 PM > > > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > By M.V. Kamath > > > > Organiser > > > > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other > > reactionary > > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and > > threatening to > > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine > > to sing > > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw > > from the > > Indian mainstream. > > > > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one > > Minister of > > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate > > Muslim > > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in > > western > > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only > > alienate > > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > > > > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical > > grounds is bad > > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting > > more > > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what > > it > > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the > > medieval > > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are > > under- > > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok > > Sabha. But > > then whose fault is it. > > > > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on > > being > > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular > > support. Past > > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails > > Muslims > > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the > > last > > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number > > of seats > > they should normally deserve proportionate to their > > population were > > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, > > forfeited > > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives > > apart > > and stays apart from the majority community how can it > > possibly win > > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > > > > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha > > elections, if > > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should > > have got > > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok > > Sabha > > elections, the population percentage remained the > > same—but the > > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the > > Muslims won > > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the > > third Lok > > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should > > have > > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number > > of seats > > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, > > though > > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 > > seats they > > managed to secure 49—not bad. > > > > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the > > number of > > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the > > tenth to > > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 > > seats but > > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims > > joined > > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. > > Muslims got > > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the > > CPM, four > > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local > > parties. > > > > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian > > ideas and > > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people > > suspect of > > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes > > by putting > > their women in burqas and sending their children to > > madrasas when > > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools > > to be > > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority > > and allied > > religions. > > > > There is another lesson that they should learn which is > > that hating > > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo > > Prasad > > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help > > them. They > > will continue to remain estranged from the majority > > community, no > > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put > > forth to > > win their favour. > > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of > > Muslims > > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan > > Mishra, a > > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent > > figure > > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in > > Mainstream > > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular > > party > > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 > > could win. > > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in > > 1998 but > > only seven could succeed. > > > > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim > > citizens > > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, > > serving people > > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in > > the Shah > > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an > > ISI-financed > > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they > > doom themselves > > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame > > the > > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to > > Muslims, the > > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in > > yourselves that > > you want to stay separate. > > > > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out > > the > > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > > > > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue > > to adhere > > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are > > not > > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are > > not > > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like > > Meghavati or > > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are > > they > > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency > > notes. An > > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own > > Indian > > artists to shame; but here in India a section of > > reactionary Muslims > > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram > > because > > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to > > Durga. > > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > > > > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had > > his > > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous > > Islamic > > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand > > to > > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser > > Islamic > > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > > > > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking > > their cue > > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is > > not > > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. > > Muslims > > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a > > democracy and > > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to > > want to > > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live > > under a > > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It > > should be > > shunned like the very devil. > > > > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote > > belongs to > > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or > > community. Sareh > > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding > > mission. > > Then everything will fall in its place and—who > > knows—the time may > > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves > > may vote > > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime > > Minister? > > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > > > > 150&page=12 --- > > ..................................................................... > > .................................... > > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > > Mayank Patel > > > > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past > > wrong > > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to > > Germany and > > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged > > past > > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their > > action > > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of > > truth and > > reconciliation. > > > > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than > > generous > > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist > > etc. who > > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies > > who have > > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf > > of Indian > > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection > > tactic > > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like > > partition. > > > > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond > > reasonable > > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single > > agenda > > of partition. Partition became possible only because > > overwhelming > > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that > > election. > > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments > > favoring > > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of > > shooting > > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with > > shooters. > > > > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims > > should not be > > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and > > cleverly presumes > > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A > > course > > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s > > mistake could > > never imply culpability of present generation. On the > > contrary, > > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed > > fallen far > > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve > > communal > > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > > > > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million > > strong Indian > > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 > > 0would not wish > > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is > > also certain > > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence > > is quite > > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims > > are 165 > > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over > > India"s > > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does > > not > > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and > > reconciliation. On > > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife > > if not > > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > > > > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of > > denial > > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and > > allies who > > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims > > are not > > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts > > this alleged > > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian > > Muslims > > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and > > distortion. > > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > > > > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past > > mistakes. > > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement > > can often > > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can > > never be > > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, > > Indian > > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in > > massi ve > > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who > > favor > > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts > > innocence of > > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes > > provide allies > > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > > > > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. > > More-over, > > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over > > reliance > > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own > > ideological beef > > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters > > worse. > > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and > > changing > > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of > > wrongdoing > > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > > > > Related story: > > > > Forgive, not Forget History @ > > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > > e2%80%93-history/ > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Mon Oct 20 17:03:15 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:03:15 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 106 Message-ID: <212356.27928.qm@web94903.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Here is a laconic reply from a moron who is considered as an "intellectual" but he feels that an intellectual can be occassionalyy a moron, laconic. Get well soon, be intellectual, not with word play , not with barbs at others, bit with patience to hear, listen and understand others in the list without the labels to each of them.  Affectionate hugs.of a laconis moron. On the word 'MORON' The word MORON (foolish, stupid, idiot) derives from the Latin  'morus', which is a transliteration of the Greek μωρός (moros;  fοοlish, stupid). In modern Greek derivatives of  μωρός continue to be used for a  wide variety of words, amongst them α) μωρός: stupid, foolish [moros] β) μωρία: folly, stupidity [moria] γ) μωρό: baby [moro] δ) μωρολογία: nonsense, idle talk [morologia] ε) μωραίνω: stupefy, drive mad [moreno] In 1911, French psychologists Alfred Binet and Theodore Simon created  the first modern intelligence test, which measured intelligence  (hence the "intelligence quotient". or IQ) based on whether children  could accomplish tasks like pointing to their nose (honestly) and  counting pennies. The concept of "IQ" followed soon after, and psychologists fell so  deeply in love with the scientific nature of the tests that they  created classification systems. Any child with an IQ of above 70 was  considered "normal," while those with scores above 130 were  considered "gifted." To classify scores below 70, psychologists invented a nomenclature of  retardation. Those with IQs between 51 and 70 were called morons.  Morons had adequate learning skills to complete menial tasks and  communicate. Imbeciles, with IQs between 26 and 50, never progressed  past a mental age of about six. And the lowest of all were the  idiots, with IQ between 0 and 25, who were characterized by poor  motor skills, extremely limited communication, and little response to  stimulus. Today the classification system is one category broader - moron,  imbecile, and idiot have been replaced with mild, moderate, severe,  and profound retardation - and diagnostic factors other than IQ are  considered in making a diagnosis. ------ Now, I said 'Chancal, you moron' with a very precise intention. It  was not meant as a term of abuse, rather, as a term that recognized  Chanchal's formidable abilities. As an intellectual, I confess to the  terrible crime of being partial to thinking carefully about the words  I choose. Chanchal is clearly a person who can abundantly communicate  his antipathy towards people who do not share his 'Hindutva' agenda  and can people  complete the menial task of hitting 'send' after  having composed yet another vitriolic mail. So, I though, calling him  a moron, would be totally appropriate to my assessment of his  intellectual abilities. Calling him an imbecile or an idiot would be  clearly imprecise. He is far more intelligent and lucid, (no offence  meant) in my opinion, in comparison to an imbecile or an idiot. However, I have now realized, that the real problem and objection on  this list (on the part of our 'hindutva-vadi' and 'indian  nationalist' or 'patriotic' list members) is towards being considered  an 'intellectual' (except, of course, if you can imitate the  semanticl acrobatics of Praveen Swami). Any unqualified suggestion  towards intellectual proclivities (even if empirically sustainable)  is insulting in and of itself. Hence, I apologize for the offence of inadvertently insulting  Chanchal Malviya by calDEFANGED.1> ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Monday, 20 October, 2008 4:33:51 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 106 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Apology of a Recidivist Intellectual (Shuddhabrata Sengupta)   2. Re: When will Muslims join the mainstream? (Yousuf) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:29:08 +0530 From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Apology of a Recidivist Intellectual To: sarai list Message-ID: <78CCC64E-71D8-4433-B43E-5F2ADD115B43 at sarai.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear all, Apologies for this mail, which should have come earlier, for a  variety of personal reasons, and for the terrible misdemeanour of  calling anyone a 'moron'. Let me add that I have been touched by the  acute sensitivity that the patriotic pro-hindutva and nationalist  subscribers on this list have for each other. It is genuinely moving  to see such concern for what can be seen as assaults on their dignity  and person by someone as crass and insensitive like myself. My heart  goes out to them. However, let me, while offering my sincere apologies for any offence  caused, take this opportunity to clarify certain things. This list has frequently seen the term 'intellectual' hurled out at  people as an accusation. And it is our 'patriotic', 'pro-Hindutva'  and 'Indian nationalist' fellow list members who often use the word  'intellectual' as if it were as pointed jibe. As if it were a crime  or a perversion to think and to base one's life's work on thought and  consideration. I have often been told that I am an 'intellectual',  especially when I patiently try to argue a point which is never  rebutted with a counter-argument, but with a series of ad hominem  attacks, that bear no relation either to the facts under dispute, or  to the substance, logical consistency or ethical implications of the  arguments brandished as weapons. I do not dispute this tag, I merely  try to understand what is wrong with being an intellectual. I had once even asked, long ago on this list (after a particularly  intense round of patriotic 'intellectual bashing'), whether living  and earning ones living by the labours of one's mind, reason or  imagination, with ideas, concepts (which in my limited understanding,  is what being an intellectual means) was in anyway criminal or  unhealthy. Unfortunately, I did not receive an adequate answer, (in  fact I received no answer to my sincerely expressed question). I now  realize that I did not receive an answer plainly because it was obvious. Being an 'intellectual' is something that several people on this list  (particularly those who stand on the 'right' side of things) would  consider as being shameful, otherwise they would not use the term  'intellectual' in a meaningfully pejorative sense, which they do.  Laying claim to 'intellectual' activities makes one especially  vulnerable to doubts and hesitations about things that many people  like to feel certain about. An intellectual, in particular, sometimes  has difficulty in committing himself or herself to the certainty and  truth claim of a nationalist project, or other assertions of identity  because he or she is plagued by corrosive doubts about the categories  deployed by nationalism and its derivatives. It is this doubt that  stands like a wall betweeen the aggressive assertion of notions of  self, ideas of community, nation and identity. Just as the congenitally deaf or mute cannot appreciate the bliss of  legible vocalized speech, so too, an intellectual like myself has  hitherto not been able to realize the immense worth of being blessed  with an absence of 'intellectual' faculties. My doubts overwhelm any  possibility of certainty. And so, just as, in Lawrence Liang's excellent recent postings, in  which we see the prosecutor advance the remarkably lucid plea that  'homosexuals' are anti-social because 'homosexuality' is not  'heterosexuality', we must accept, by the same logical principle,  (which also covers the same ground as 'muslims are bad people because  they are not hindus') the argument that 'intellectuals' are  criminally inclined, well, because they are not 'morons'. I am  afraid, that like many people who see nothing wrong with homosexuals,  muslims and intellectuals, I too must confess my crimes. I hope that  list members will indulge and forgive a brief 'self critical'  digression, which is an intrinsic partof my sincere apology to Sri  Sri Chanchal Malviya and all those offended by my previous posting.   (Hindutva-vadi's have a great deal to learn, incidentally, from  Stalinists and Maoists, who were and remain just as suspicious and  hostile to 'intellectuals' and often subject them, to lengthy ordeals  of 'self-criticism' for the sin or the shame of being, 'intellectual') Now, for instance, if (by way of response to Aditya Raj Kaul's recent  forward of M.V. Kamath's islamophobic text) I were to point out that  a believing Muslim's objection to singing 'Vande Mataram' or 'Hail to  the Mother' (which is an unequivocal salutation to a particular  incarnation of a Hindu mother goddess, and this is evident if you  read the words of its text, as written by its author, Bankim Chandra  Chattopadhyay) is an echo of a believing Hindu's objection to either  having to say, or to hear, 'Aazadi ka Matlab Kya, La Illaha,  Illallah' (what does freedom mean, there is no god but god), a slogan  that disturbs Shri Shri Chanchal Malviya so much, then no doubt I  would be told, that I am behaving with the deviousness particular to  intellectuals. I am indeed, needlessly and perversely, showing how two phenomena,  can be considered as identical based on a structural analyses of the  reasons why a parallel set of objections are brought to bear on them  by two mutually exclusive constituencies.   My sin would be all the worse because as far as I am concerned,  since I am neither a believing Hindu nor a believing Muslim, I  couldn't care less about how believing Hindus and Muslims continued  to confuse either a) territory with a goddess unknown to me or, b)  freedom with declarations of fidelity towards a deity towards whom I  am indifferent. All I care for is that people, especially me, should not have to do  things they do not want to do. This includes singing 'Vande Mataram'  which I do not sing, because my mother is a human being whom I love  and cherish, nor a state that i pay taxes to or a goddess who  controls my destiny. This also includes identifying freedom with the  acknowledgement of the absence of Allah as much as with his presence  in anyone's consciousness. This includes whispering to myself, on occasion, in the spirit of  Sarmad, the agnostic and free thinking Jewish-Muslim sufi poet of  eighteenth century Delhi, (whose memory is dear to me),  'Azadi ka  Matlab kya, La Illaha' (and so omitting, like Sarmad, to say '  illallah' which changes everything). Freedom or 'Azaadi' would be  hollow for me if it did not include the right to drop the 'but God',  if one so wished, afer saying 'There is no God'. The muslim zealots  of eighteenth century Delhi decapitated Sarmad for his quiet  reticence with regard to 'illallah', just as many hindu zealots of  today would no doubt have no hesitation in endorsing violence upon  those reluctant to say 'vande matram'. I say this in anticipation of my patriotic fellow list members rising  to the occasion, with yet another round of 'intellectual bashing'  because who but an 'intellectual' would defend the right to remain  silent while 'Vande Mataram' is belted out. The sneer with which this  word is written is not at all invisible, or inaudible. So, I thought, that  since begin an intellectual is clearly a  sickness at best and a sin at worst, calling a moron a moron would be  paying an 'anti-intellectual' a compliment. After all, they might  take great offence to being called 'intellectual'. In fact I did some  thinking about what it is to be a 'moron'. I apologize (again in advance) for the devious, seditious, anti- national, un-patriotic, deeply insensitive 'thought crime' of having  looked up some etymological resources while writing this, (and the  previous offensive post) and this is what I found. --------ling him a 'moron' and imputing to him or her  thereby a degree of intellect he or she clearly does not have and has  no desire to possess.  If the word 'moron' which does indicate a  borderline ability to marshall 'intellectual' resources, is deemed  offensive, it can easily replaced by any one of the two other words  ('imbecile' and 'idiot' that are part of the (now largely disused)  Binet-Simon diagnostic scale). Since I do not wish to commit myself to further inaccuracy, I invite  Chanchal Malviya to choose whichever of the two words he or she feels  is more in keeping with his/her distance from the shameful state of  being an 'intellectual'. With an abject apology for the condition of being a recidivist  'intellectual', which, try as hard as I might, I seem not to be able  to repair, I appeal, if not to the understanding, then at least to  the mercy of those who are lucky to be morons, (or even better)  imbeciles and idiots. Truly, this blissful state is their patrimony.  I can only feel envious of their confidence in themselves. regards, Shuddha. - ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 04:03:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Yousuf Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? To: sarai list ,    Aditya Raj Kaul     Message-ID: <954839..56265.qm at web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Aditya Thanks for forwarding the Organizer article. It is fallacious to assume that Muslims are not part of the mainstream. Firstly, what is mainstream? If it is some kind monolithic superhighway expecting everyone to follow a jet speed, then why does everyone need to enter it? In India, despite having such superhighways we still have bullock carts and camel carts slowly traversing all the wrong and right paths and no one minds. What I mean it, let us first define what is mainstream? Secondly, why does representations in Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha become the yardstick of any community's progress? That's really absurd. How about the representation in business, corporations, health sector, education, arts, sciences, music, literature, media, motor mechanics, academics, manufacturing, civil services, sports? Is there any sector among the above which is not represented by Muslims? In some of them in fact, they have done exceptionally well. Yes, their proportions maybe less than what it should be, but there are several reasons for it: (A) They certainly need to do better than what they have done so far, and (B) there is some amount of bias in corporations and other institutions against Muslims (please don't get wild on this - its a well-known fact). But yes, even that bias can be fought if you struggle harder. It is stupidity again to assume that you are mainstream only if you can sing Vande Matram. No one should be forced to prove one's love for the mother land simply by singing a poem. My children and many other Muslim children in Delhi happily go to mainstream schools where they start the day with Hindu prayers, and I don't mind that. Prophet Muhammad has said that to love your mother land is a sign of faith (Iman). So, loving your country is part of religion too for Muslims. But unfortunately, the media (such as Organizer) will never highlight such positive aspects of the community. I believe in (and agree with) India's constitution, which I hope every mainstream Indian does. The constitution defines India as a secular country, and gives everyone the right to follow their own religion, culture, language and norms. Singing Vande Matram (as far as I know) is not an essential item in the constitution. Through that song, you can pledge your love and respect to the country. If I want to express my love and respect to Mother India in Urdu, Bengali or Kannada, I have the right to do that (because expressing something in your mother tongue brings out your emotions better). If I find Vande Mataram's sanskrit too difficult to follow, why can't I sing a similar song in Assamese for instance? Many "Muslim" schools in India start their day with Iqbal's Sare jahan se achchha - can that song be considered less in patriotism than Vande Mataram? Also, having a Muslim President or vice-president or Prime Minister is the least of Muslims' concern today. It does not mean anything. It is the middle level secretariat that runs the govt and this country. That's the sector that needs reforms and a better representation of all communities. Yousuf Saeed (Sorry, I didn't mean to write all this to you Aditya - I know you only forwarded the message - but it is meant for everyone). - --- On Mon, 10/20/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 2:46 PM > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > By M.V. Kamath > > Organiser > > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other > reactionary > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and > threatening to > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine > to sing > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw > from the > Indian mainstream. > > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one > Minister of > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate > Muslim > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in > western > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only > alienate > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical > grounds is bad > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting > more > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what > it > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the > medieval > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are > under- > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok > Sabha. But > then whose fault is it. > > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on > being > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular > support. Past > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails > Muslims > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the > last > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number > of seats > they should normally deserve proportionate to their > population were > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, > forfeited > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives > apart > and stays apart from the majority community how can it > possibly win > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha > elections, if > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should > have got > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok > Sabha > elections, the population percentage remained the > same—but the > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the > Muslims won > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the > third Lok > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should > have > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number > of seats > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, > though > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 > seats they > managed to secure 49—not bad. > > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the > number of > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the > tenth to > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 > seats but > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims > joined > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. > Muslims got > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the > CPM, four > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local > parties. > > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian > ideas and > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people > suspect of > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes > by putting > their women in burqas and sending their children to > madrasas when > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools > to be > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority > and allied > religions. > > There is another lesson that they should learn which is > that hating > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo > Prasad > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help > them. They > will continue to remain estranged from the majority > community, no > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put > forth to > win their favour. > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of > Muslims > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan > Mishra, a > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent > figure > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in > Mainstream > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular > party > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 > could win. > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in > 1998 but > only seven could succeed. > > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim > citizens > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, > serving people > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in > the Shah > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an > ISI-financed > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they > doom themselves > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame > the > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to > Muslims, the > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in > yourselves that > you want to stay separate. > > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out > the > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue > to adhere > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are > not > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are > not > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like > Meghavati or > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are > they > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency > notes. An > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own > Indian > artists to shame; but here in India a section of > reactionary Muslims > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram > because > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to > Durga. > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had > his > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous > Islamic > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand > to > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser > Islamic > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking > their cue > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is > not > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. > Muslims > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a > democracy and > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to > want to > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live > under a > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It > should be > shunned like the very devil. > > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote > belongs to > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or > community. Sareh > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding > mission. > Then everything will fall in its place and—who > knows—the time may > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves > may vote > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime > Minister? > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > > 150&page=12 --- > ...................................................................... > .................................... > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > Mayank Patel > > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past > wrong > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to > Germany and > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged > past > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their > action > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of > truth and > reconciliation. > > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than > generous > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist > etc. who > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies > who have > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf > of Indian > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection > tactic > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like > partition. > > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond > reasonable > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single > agenda > of partition. Partition became possible only because > overwhelming > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that > election. > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments > favoring > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of > shooting > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with > shooters. > > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims > should not be > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and > cleverly presumes > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A > course > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s > mistake could > never imply culpability of present generation. On the > contrary, > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed > fallen far > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve > communal > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million > strong Indian > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 > 0would not wish > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is > also certain > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence > is quite > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims > are 165 > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over > India"s > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does > not > changethe fact that current path of denial, distortion and > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and > reconciliation. On > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife > if not > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of > denial > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and > allies who > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims > are not > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts > this alleged > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian > Muslims > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and > distortion. > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past > mistakes. > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement > can often > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can > never be > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, > Indian > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in > massi ve > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who > favor > denial path.. In fact more an ally denies and asserts > innocence of > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes > provide allies > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. > More-over, > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over > reliance > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own > ideological beef > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters > worse. > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and > changing > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of > wrongdoing > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > > Related story: > > Forgive, not Forget History @ > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > e2%80%93-history/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo..com - ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 106 ******************************************** Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Yahoo! Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger.yahoo.com/download.php From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Oct 20 19:29:18 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:29:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism In-Reply-To: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810200659g473d0146m7ab7e387bc609b79@mail.gmail.com> You might want to read the Annihilation of Caste: http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/ best shivam On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > > SECTION – I > > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > resides in him. > > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > caste system or birth based caste system. > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > days as compared to other civilizations. > > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > sometime in 1800 AD." > > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > fraudulent methods. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Oct 20 19:34:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:34:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder when they will join the mainstream? best shivam On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > By M.V. Kamath > > Organiser > > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the > Indian mainstream. > > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But > then whose fault is it. > > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they > managed to secure 49—not bad. > > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. > > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied > religions. > > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to > win their favour. > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but > only seven could succeed. > > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that > you want to stay separate. > > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be > shunned like the very devil. > > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > > 150&page=12 --- > ..................................................................... > .................................... > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > Mayank Patel > > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and > reconciliation. > > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. > > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. > > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > > Related story: > > Forgive, not Forget History @ > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > e2%80%93-history/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Oct 20 19:37:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:37:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "My conversion was not a change of religion" Message-ID: <9c06aab30810200707v19ee08eao67d39ef9f9e71f9c@mail.gmail.com> I, The Convert My conversion was not a change of religion; it was a change of heart Anand Mahadevan http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081027&fname=Conversions+%28F%29&sid=5 I was born a Brahmin and am the grandson of a priest whom I dearly loved. I am educated and my current professional standing indicates that I am reasonably intelligent. I am also affluent and my income would put me distinctly in the upper middle class bracket. I guess that would make me high-caste, rich and smart. In other words, I am not a tribal, or poor or dim-witted. And yet, I chose to become a follower of Jesus Christ. The world would call me a convert to Christianity. I have no problems with that, though I see my faith more as a relationship with God through Jesus Christ than as a religion. And for the record, I can truthfully claim that no one financially induced or threatened or deceived me into converting to Christianity. I am fiercely proud of my national identity as an Indian and I am completely at peace with my cultural identity as a Hindu. I retain the name my parents gave me. My wife, who also shares my faith, continues to go by her Hindu name. We have two children and we have given both distinctly Hindu names. In fact, many of my colleagues and acquaintances who may happen to read this column are likely to be surprised. They have no inkling about my faith, for I generally don't go about announcing it. But if someone does ask me the reason behind the joy and hope that is everpresent in my life, I am always delighted to share it with them. I write this piece to make one point—that my conversion was not a change of religion but a change of heart. To explain this, I need to go back to my childhood in Chennai, similar to that of so many other Tamil Brahmin boys like me. My grandfather, every bit the virtuous priest, had enormous influence over me. I absolutely adored him and as a toddler, always clung to him. He too loved me to a fault. There was no wish of mine that he would not rush to fulfil. But even in my early, formative years I was unable to relate to the religion he fervently practiced. Later, in my school days, I once spent my summer holidays with him in Trichy. Memories of dawn walks with him, for the ritualistic dip in the Cauvery river, cow in tow, are still fresh in my memory. I learnt many shlokas, some of which I still remember. But I never understood any of it and none of it helped me connect with God. When I was 19, a Christian friend with whom I used to play cricket invited me to his house for prayer. If he had invited me to a pub, or party, I would have gone too. At his home, he and his sister prayed for me. It was a simple yet delightful conversation with God that lasted all of five minutes. I don't remember it verbatim, but they articulated a prayer of blessing on my life, future, career and family. It was a simple affair—no miracles, no angels visiting. All they did was utter a deep human cry out to the creator God and His only son Jesus Christ. When they said Amen, I felt in my heart a desire to follow Jesus. It was a faith encounter with God that I shall not even attempt to understand, rationalise or explain. I simply accept it. It is my faith. It is what I choose to believe. That evening I did not change my religion, for in reality I had none. Hinduism was my identity, not my religion. It still is. The Christianity I acquired that evening is not a religion. On the contrary, it is an intensely intimate relationship with Jesus. Over the past fifteen years, I have come to know this Jesus even closer. I know Him as the pure and sinless Son of a Holy God. And I know Him as a dear friend to whom I pray and talk to every day—about my career, my dreams, successes, failures, finances and even my sexuality. If I read a good book, watch a good movie (Rock On is terrific, mate), or eat a good meal at a new restaurant, I would naturally tell my friends about it.In Jesus, I have discovered a truly amazing friend, guide, leader, saviour and God. How can I not tell all my friends about Him? And if anyone does listen and he too comes to believe in Jesus, I am delighted. The world would call it a conversion; I call it a change of heart, like mine. But I would never force anyone to listen to me, leave alone financially induce, coerce or con him into believing. That to me is pointless and against the very grain of my faith. But I do have a constitutional right to practice my faith and to preach it without deception, force or bribery. It pains to see such basic rights of mankind being cruelly violated every day in this great Hindu nation. God bless India. From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Oct 20 19:39:20 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:39:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Such absurdity on a Wednesday Message-ID: <9c06aab30810200709t233eed88v155854694e1eb658@mail.gmail.com> Such absurdity on a Wednesday by SHAHRUKH ALAM http://kafila.org/2008/10/19/such-absurdity-on-a-wednesday/ On Wednesday, I met some young men from Dhule. I am not at all sure where Dhule is and I said as much to them. "There was some violence there. It has been in the news lately," they said. "Did any bombs go off in Dhule?" said I. "No bombs, no. But there was communal violence. It was on the news." "I only watch prime time news. I don't usually manage to view the afternoon bulletins. Nor the eleven PM one (informative though they are)," I explained. "So where exactly is Dhule?" I persisted. "It is a district on the north-western tip of Maharashtra. It's not so far from Malegaon." Ah, Malegaon! Where the blasts occurred? Finally I had a co-ordinate. But the young men of Dhule: they all looked terror-stricken. I was much intrigued by their looks. Why terror-stricken, when by their own admission, there hadn't been any terror strikes? "Why do you look terrorized?" I enquired. "We have experienced violence. Our houses were attacked and we didn't know if we'd live. We feared for our families," they replied. "I understand and I'd empathize if you looked horrified or mortified. But a terrorized look, when not a single bomb has gone off, is rather an inappropriate thing to be wearing, surely? Much like being Dalit and wearing a look of resentment," reasoned I. "There was an angry mob charging about and we barely escaped with our lives. Some of us lost our homes. The police observed disinterestedly, as they usually do. It was a communal clash," they answered unconvincingly. "Well then, look communally affected, or communally angry - communally charged, even, but where is reason to feel terror?" But they continued to look dumbfounded and terrorized. *** On Friday, I had the good fortune to see A Wednesday. At a fundraiser for victims of the flood in North Bihar, organised at the India Habitat Centre, New Delhi. I think A Wednesday is a wonderful film. I already had a feeling to that effect as I watched the film, but when the informed audience at the IHC gave it a standing ovation, I was convinced that it is, indeed, a good film. It has a simple message. It says that the common man has really had enough of terrorism and that he should now stand up and strike: blow up the terrorists (or shoot them dead). The common man should not, anymore, leave things to the rule of law. He should really start to think about revenge. It is a clear and simple message, indeed. And it is not the first time we have heard it either. I recently heard a representative of the common men of Orissa explain why a young nun had to be raped and her Church razed to the ground: to express the frustration and helplessness of his lot at the ongoing conversions and of the need, therefore, to strike back. Mr. Modi said much the same, on behalf of all the common men of Gujarat, while elucidating the real reasons for the genocide. To be fair to A Wednesday, though, this is exactly the kind of thing it warns against. Do not unleash genocide, it says. Rather, pick out some suspects and kill them. The common men of Orissa and Gujarat got a little carried away. There is obviously a problem when such clear and simple messages reach utterly confused minds - the same way high theory never seems to work at the grassroots. So now, Indian Mujahideen for instance, might argue that they are only responding to the logic of A Wednesday. Of course, they are not the victims of terrorism that the film seeks to inspire but I have already told you about the young men of Dhule. Some people get terrorized at the drop of a hat. But I felt that A Wednesday was a terribly responsible film. In order to make things even more clear, it provides a pithy list of activities that logically qualify as arousing terror and that, therefore, warrant vigilante action. The protagonist takes us through it on many an occasion during the film. Bomb explosions that kill innocent people are naturally, logically on the list. A Wednesday is a responsible film and genocides, ethnic cleansings, communal and caste riots, honourable acquittals of those involved, by commissions of enquiry, starvation deaths, encounters, tortures, humiliations, discriminations are not on the list. I wish young men and women of Dhule, Kandhamal, Rampur-Bairiya, Jajjhar, Hashimpura and elsewhere would please take note. I do not for a moment suspect that A Wednesday is oblivious to the fact that every revolutionary idea or policy has its pitfalls (even NREGA and RTI have problems of implementation). I feel the characters of Jai Singh and Arif Khan are, in fact, a portrayal of the different ways in which this novel call to arms might unfold. They are both underlings of Prakash Rathore, the Commissioner of Police and also invested with considerable power to retaliate to violence. Now, while Jai Singh never shies away from killing, he is not anarchic. He sticks to the concise list that is supposed to be a reference point for one and all. He only kills those accused of planting bombs in assorted places. At other times he is honourable, courageous and very calm. He is also a caring family man. Arif Khan, on the other hand, is edgy and volatile. He is the type who is confused about the kinds of actions that need vigilante reaction and those that most certainly do not. He is indisciplined and irresponsible. He is also an excellent representation of the Muslim, I feel. Muslims are exactly like Arif Khan. They talk little and glower a lot and are given to sudden fits of violence. It wasn't for nothing that the film was celebrated as a 'realistic and gritty picture of things'. The brilliant thing about A Wednesday is that after it has underlined the possible dangers of being misunderstood, it even provides solutions. It shows that Arif Khan can be brought in line with a little bit of supervision from the state and from more sensible people who have a sense of terror and non-terror. All one needs to do is to keep an eye out and sometimes punish in order to discipline. I have to admit that I was somewhat anxious in the beginning, in the auditorium, that evening. While most of the audience seemed sensible like Jai Singh - people who clearly knew when it was right to strike back in anger and when the situation did not merit it at all - there were some who were distinctly jumpy like Arif Khan. I couldn't help but wonder if this exercise by common people in privatizing relief, taking things into our own hands - collecting funds for flood victims, without first asking the state some basic questions - might not translate itself into other forms of action too. I even said a silent prayer for some officers in the Bihar government. But then I saw the part about careful supervision and occasional chastisement, kept an eye on the agitated sorts in the crowd, throughout the film, and felt most reassured. Finally, A Wednesday recognizes that a lot is read into mere names (or Kefayas that the police sometimes like to drape their catch in). I stand guilty as charged for I did wonder why the three saviours - Prakash Rathore, Jai Singh and the quick-tempered Arif Khan - couldn't have been called Prakash Bhotmange, Nirmal Ram and Arif Kallal instead? But then, that's another kind of commonality altogether. Let's not go there. Let the warriors do their job, shall we? Also by Shahrukh Alam: On being Muslim: http://kafila.org/2008/09/26/on-being-muslim-shahrukh-alam/ From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 20:24:21 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:24:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810200659g473d0146m7ab7e387bc609b79@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200659g473d0146m7ab7e387bc609b79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810200754p45c702dcp1c0ddf04a9c8509a@mail.gmail.com> by the way. Chor Ganvar shudra pashu nari yeh saab hai tadan kay adikari by Tulsi Dass ( thieves, ruffians, low caste, animals, women these all deserve beating ) the fact, with other facts was often quoted by Kanshi Ram ji, the great leader of low caste hindus in india, after Dr. Baba saheb Ambedkar ( the architect of Indian Constitution ) On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > You might want to read the Annihilation of Caste: > http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/ > > best > shivam > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >> The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … >> >> SECTION – I >> >> Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism >> >> "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures >> sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does >> not permit any caste system, whatsoever. >> Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of >> Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity >> with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire >> humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste >> system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig >> Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve >> amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, >> universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and >> commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. >> Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet >> declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All >> are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all >> men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- >> 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and >> to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. >> Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of >> Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly >> united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. >> >> Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas >> that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka >> number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all >> creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) >> reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, >> and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord >> resides in him. >> >> Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's >> profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- >> based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon >> a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four >> Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his >> Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita >> specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and >> attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in >> every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of >> every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every >> individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their >> Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will >> belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the >> differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat >> the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any >> caste system or birth based caste system. >> Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority >> for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human >> recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate >> role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo >> akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) >> whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever >> Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail >> over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) >> >> "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not >> allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a >> Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic >> Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were >> codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who >> wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin >> but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat >> war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system >> worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well >> which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those >> days as compared to other civilizations. >> >> It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present >> rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British >> census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the >> kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such >> castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta >> Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because >> it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the >> process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance >> more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese >> word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and >> used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule >> in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only >> sometime in 1800 AD." >> >> Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of >> Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not >> reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low >> caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from >> each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed >> together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided >> into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their >> professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near >> the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) >> This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in >> Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. >> Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India >> and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian >> missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality >> and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are >> practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? >> Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used >> only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao >> Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called >> Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the >> term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and >> missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and >> illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and >> fraudulent methods. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 21:18:02 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:18:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ashfaq Wares Khan on Baul Statues Message-ID: DAILY STAR Monday, October 20, 2008 09:47 PM GMT+06:00 Time to take a stand Ashfaq Wares Khan WHAT next -- Aparajayo Bangla? The Shaheed Minar? The Smriti Shoudho? Wait, what happens to all those "statues" in our temples and churches? What is at stake here is not only the future of these important monuments to our history and our faiths, but the daily rituals that constitute our way of life. The agitation which culminated in the removal of the five baul sculptures in front of Zia International Airport strikes at the heart of a society built on the foundations of religious tolerance that has developed over a thousand years of adaptation of a diverse set of cultural and religious practices. The Islamists have already threatened to shut down Pahela Baishakh and they came mighty close by bombing the Ramna Batamul in 2002. Who knows what or who they are going to attack next. If we are to believe Fazlul Haque Amini, the head of the IOJ and a group that calls itself the Islamic Law Implementation Committee, then don't expect to see any of this when Islamists take over. Most people say, well, they will never take over. Fine. But, the problem is that they don't have to. They are being handed out favours for free. The government's concession to the Islamists on Wednesday is part of a larger victory for the hard-liners hell-bent on transporting Bangladesh back to the middle ages in the Middle East. What's worse, the middle ages in the Middle East were perhaps more tolerant and liberal than the society envisioned by these radical Islamists in Bangladesh. This government, along with its democratic and non-democratic predecessors, has consistently conceded and cravenly acquiesced to the slightest and strangest demands made by Islamist fringe groups who seemingly pull more weight than the vast majority here who do not prescribe to their radical agenda. This has been facilitated by an appeasement policy run by mainstream political parties. The governing principle apparently being that appeasing the hard-line Islamists, along with a nominal number of arrests, would repel the greater threat of terrorism. But, even though they object to the full installation of the Islamist agenda, in the long run, by conceding these ostensibly small but significant defeats, the appeasers are conceding and participating in the slow but steady erosion of the tolerant and secular soul of Bengali culture. This practice of Islamising Bangladesh (and, that too, a narrow interpretation of Islam that is peddled for political ends) at the cost of a secular society is not new. In the 1970s and 1980s, this was represented by the changes in constitution. In the last decade, the attacks have become more bold, more outrageous, and more violent. Successive governments have not only maintained silence about these attacks, but at times actively encouraged the attacks on other religious communities and secular intellectuals. The last BNP-led government not only silenced but arrested journalists for publishing news on the violence against Hindu communities in 2001-2002. The same government banned Ahmadiyya religious texts, and also tacitly encouraged the attack on the Ahmadiyya community by the same group that tore down the baul statues. The attackers of Humayun Azad were never really chased. This isn't really unexpected in a country when most politicians and administrators refer to it as a "moderate Muslim nation." How the country became a "Muslim" nation, no one knows. But in reality it has and it's not far from the truth. But to call it moderate? Please! The double standards here are farcical. The Election Commission has been haranguing over the need for religion-based parties to adapt secular constitutions. Every time the government needs a cultural symbol, it boasts of the grand historical achievements of the country's writers, playwrights, artists, singers and (surprise!) baul music. Yet, when push came to shove, the government didn't waste a second to dispense with the country's pride and joy when pushed by the Islamists. The fact that Wednesday's event took place in front of the airport takes on added significance because the location offers the visitor his or her first impression of Bangladesh. The signs and symbols leading out of the airport are meant to showcase the best of Bangladesh. Instead, the statue-wreck outside the airport showcases the worst of a country at war with itself. Wednesday's event is scarily reminiscent of the Pakistani government ban on Rabindranath Tagore in the 1960s. He wasn't Islamic enough, they said. Now after nearly 50 years, people are again being provided a false choice of Bengali versus Islam. It's a false choice because Bengal, and later Bangladesh, has seamlessly combined religious and cultural practices. One of its richest and most potent expressions is found in baul philosophy, which espouses religious tolerance and the power of humanity to heal the wounds of religious divisions. That's why the demolition of baul figures is a potent reminder of our larger threats. The artists and intellectuals who came to protest in the aftermath of the demolition need to be lauded for their efforts. They are rare and courageous at a time when the government has wilted in the face of fear. But, sadly, this is not enough. The calling to act is an agonising and dangerous vocation in Bangladesh. We don't have to act with guns or platitudes. If they take down one statue, we must erect another ten as symbols of our firm dissent when faced with fear. Ashfaq Wares Khan is a freelance journalist. From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Oct 20 21:46:08 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:16:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste System and Tulsi Daas References: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com><9c06aab30810200659g473d0146m7ab7e387bc609b79@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810200754p45c702dcp1c0ddf04a9c8509a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31C9892CA9B749EC9FAAB38D0425FA9D@tara> I don't know what happened to my previous mail before I could sent it, my computer automatically rebooted. It is a fashion these days to victimize the writers of the yesteryears for the evil of castism in India. Prem Chand's books have been recently burnt in public spectacles. Tulsi has been so often quoted out of context. The couplet which IS quoted in his mail is not actually what Tulsi believed, this was said by one of the characters in his book. So tulsi should not be blamed for castist remarks for this couplet. It is like calling Chomski imperialist because you find him quoting someone's imperialists views. Tulsi's philosophy is more of a "jaat paat puche naheen koi Hari ko bhaje so hari ka hoi." (You don't ask to what caste one belongs, the one who worships God belongs to Him only". We have seen the custodians of anti-caste moments, who have been leading such misdirected criticism against Hindi writers, joining hands with "tilak taraju or talvar". Brahmin blows the conch for the elephant of so-called party of Dalits, it should not be very surprising that Brahmins were the strongest critics of Tulsi as the latter "defiled" the scripture by making it available for the subaltern. "Dalit vimarsh" (dalit discourse) has a term called Dalit-brahmins. I call those who for their personal power and prestige embrace the right wing politics Dalit-brahmins. And they are in the forefront of the misguided moment, which calls Bhagat Sing a terrorist, which burns Prem Chand's books and derides writers without even reading them first. Thanks p.s. The word "Chor" in Inder's quotation is actually "dhor" which I think means the cattle. ----- Original Message ----- From: "inder salim" To: Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > by the way. > > Chor Ganvar shudra pashu nari > yeh saab hai tadan kay adikari > > by Tulsi Dass > > ( thieves, ruffians, low caste, animals, women > these all deserve beating ) > > the fact, with other facts was often quoted by Kanshi Ram ji, the > great leader of low caste hindus in india, after Dr. Baba saheb > Ambedkar ( the architect of Indian Constitution ) > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: >> You might want to read the Annihilation of Caste: >> http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/ >> >> best >> shivam >> >> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >>> The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … >>> >>> SECTION – I >>> >>> Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism >>> >>> "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures >>> sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does >>> not permit any caste system, whatsoever. >>> Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of >>> Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity >>> with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire >>> humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste >>> system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig >>> Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve >>> amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, >>> universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and >>> commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. >>> Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet >>> declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All >>> are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all >>> men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- >>> 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and >>> to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. >>> Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of >>> Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly >>> united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. >>> >>> Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas >>> that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka >>> number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all >>> creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) >>> reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, >>> and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord >>> resides in him. >>> >>> Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's >>> profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- >>> based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon >>> a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four >>> Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his >>> Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita >>> specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and >>> attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in >>> every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of >>> every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every >>> individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their >>> Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will >>> belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the >>> differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat >>> the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any >>> caste system or birth based caste system. >>> Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority >>> for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human >>> recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate >>> role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo >>> akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) >>> whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever >>> Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail >>> over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) >>> >>> "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not >>> allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a >>> Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic >>> Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were >>> codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who >>> wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin >>> but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat >>> war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system >>> worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well >>> which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those >>> days as compared to other civilizations. >>> >>> It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present >>> rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British >>> census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the >>> kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such >>> castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta >>> Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because >>> it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the >>> process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance >>> more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese >>> word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and >>> used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule >>> in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only >>> sometime in 1800 AD." >>> >>> Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of >>> Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not >>> reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low >>> caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from >>> each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed >>> together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided >>> into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their >>> professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near >>> the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) >>> This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in >>> Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. >>> Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India >>> and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian >>> missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality >>> and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are >>> practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? >>> Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used >>> only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao >>> Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called >>> Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the >>> term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and >>> missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and >>> illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and >>> fraudulent methods. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 00:24:08 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:24:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] US: Colin Powell & a Muslim Gravestone Message-ID: Black President in the house!! It's really going to happen, holy cow! - Naeem On "Meet the Press" today, Colin L. Powell concluded his endorsement of Sen. Barack Obama by referring to the death of a Muslim soldier, Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan of Manahawkin, N.J., who was killed in Iraq on Aug. 6, 2007, and whose remains were buried in Arlington. Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan and three other soldiers....were killed in Baquba after a bomb detonated while they were checking abandoned houses for explosives. They served in the Stryker Brigade combat team of the Army's 2nd Infantry Division, based in Ft. Lewis, Washington. Mr. Khan graduated from Southern Regional High School in Manahawkin in 2005, and enlisted in the Army a few months later, spurred by his memories of the 9/11 terror attacks. "His Muslim faith did not make him not want to go. It never stopped him," his father, Feroze Khan, told the Gannett News Service in a story printed shortly after his death. "He looked at it that he's American and he has a job to do." This is what Powell said about Khan on "Meet the Press:"He was 14 years old at the time of 9/11, and he waited until he could go serve his country, and he gave his life," Mr. Powell said. "Now, we have got to stop polarizing ourselves in this way." http://www.truveo.com/Meet-the-PressCollin-Powell-Endorsing-Barack-Obama/id/738770379 http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/19/135740/17/131/635488 > "They're trying to connect [Obama] to some kind of terrorist feelings, and > I think that's inappropriate," Powell said. "Now I understand what > politics is all about - I know how you can go after one another. And > that's good. But I think this goes too far. And I think it has made the > McCain campaign look a little narrow. It's not what the American people > are looking for. And I look at these kinds of approaches to the campaign, > and they trouble me. And the party has moved even further to the right, > and Governor Palin has indicated a further rightward shift." > Powell said he has "heard senior members of my own party drop the > suggestion [that Obama's] a Muslim and might be associated with > terrorists." > "This is not the way we should be doing it in America. I feel strongly > about this particular point," Powell said. "We have got to stop polarizing > ourselves in this way. And John McCain is as non-discriminatory as anyone > I know. But I'm troubled about the fact that within the party, we have > these kinds of expressions." > "This Powell endorsement is the nail in the coffin," said one Republican > official, speaking anonymously to offer candid thoughts about the party's > nominee. "Not just because of him, but the indictment he laid out of the > McCain campaign." From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 07:22:35 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Look who hijacked jamia - by Arif Mohammed Khan Message-ID: <944032.23730.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> “And fear tumult or oppression, which affects not in particular only those of you who do wrong. And know that God is strict in punishment.” (Quran, 8.25) Ibn Katheer commenting on this verse has quoted a Prophetic tradition saying that “if a people, despite being strong and numerous, do nothing to stop those men among them who do wrong, then they will be surrounded with punishment”. History is full of instances showing how a small group of people or individuals by their odious acts have inconvenienced the communities they belong to. Today the Muslims as a community are passing through a difficult period on account of the activities of terrorists who shamelessly use religion to justify their crimes. Ads By Google Related Stories: * Kya karega kazi? A common Muslim, like his compatriots, is busy earning his daily bread and raising the family. With increased awakening about modern education, good numbers of Muslim families from rural areas have moved to urban centres to ensure education for their wards. A casual survey of the families living in Jamia Nagar will show that the majority of them hail from villages and depend for their income on rural sources. In many cases it is only the mothers and children who are living here, while the men spend most of their time in native places to arrange the necessary means for the family to carry on in Delhi. Their only concern is a safe and peaceful environment congenial for academic pursuit. On the other hand, attracted by this large population, more than two dozen Muslim outfits have established themselves in this neighbourhood taking upon them the responsibility to lead and organise the religious and social life of the community. They include organisations like the Personal Law Board, Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawarat and Jamaat-e-Islami. None of these organisations is known for promoting social reform or education. Most of the time they are competing with each other in crying wolf and pressing the need to fight against imagined threats to the Muslim religion and identity. Occasionally they also succeed in securing positions of power for their nominees and this political patronage helps them to widen their network in the community. If we look at some important events of the past then an idea can be formed about the activities and mindset that is promoted by these organisations. After the official ban on The Satanic Verses, Mushirul Hasan, the present vice chancellor and then teacher in the history department of Jamia, said in an interview to a weekly that a ban on the book would only boost its sales and increase the circulation of the objectionable writing. His remarks were not in support of the book, its contents or the writer, yet they provoked an angry and violent protest inside the campus. The Muslim outfits worked overtime to instigate and excite the feelings resulting in a situation where despite continuing on the rolls of the university Mushirul Hasan could not enter the campus for more than three long years. During the war in Afghanistan, public expressions of solidarity with Osama bin Laden were made and posters in his support were pasted in the area by some self-appointed champions of Muslim interests. This was done despite the knowledge that Osama and Al-Qaeda were directly involved in Terror activities in Kashmir. I remember having met many Muslims from Jamia Nagar who expressed their utter indignation over the episode and felt sorry for not being able to oppose these undesirable activities. In 1990, Prof Mushirul Haq, the vice chancellor of Kashmir University, was killed by terrorists in Srinagar. Since he was an old teacher of Jamia, his burial took place inside the campus. As an academician I had held him in great esteem and during the Shah Bano controversy had sought his opinion on several occasions. I went to attend his last rites and walked almost a kilometre with the funeral procession. After reaching the burial ground suddenly the lights went out and in that darkness I was attacked with an iron rod, causing head injury. Later, inquiries revealed that the students who had organised the blackout and attack belonged to the Jamaat-e-Islami. It is important to recall that the banned organisation, SIMI, was mostly manned by young activists inspired by philosophies like that of the Jamaat-e-Islami. The other organisation with headquarters in this area is Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawarat. On the slightest provocation they would call for a boycott of celebrations of Independence Day or Republic Day giving rise to communal tension. It is true that on every occasion they had withdrawn the calls, but that did not help in lessening the tension. The most important Muslim organisation operating from the Jamia neighborhood is the All India Muslim Personal Law Board and its affiliates. During their agitation against the judgment of the Supreme Court in the Shah Bano case, the members of AIMPLB made public exhortations to break the legs of Muslims who differed with their stand. Their supporters went to the extent of suggesting that Supreme Court judges are not competent to interpret Muslim personal law. It is important to recall that during parliamentary discussion of the bill that was brought in to negate the impact of the Supreme Court judgment, almost every minister who rose to defend the measure referred to the apprehensions of threats to law and order arising on account of an aggressive and violent agitation. Such activities of these Muslim outfits are as much a source of consternation to common Muslims as they are to other Indians. Occasionally some Muslims raise their voice but they lose nerve when they see the political promiscuity and influence enjoyed by these extremist elements. The establishment must realise that the police can fight terrorists, not terrorism. Terrorism can be contained only by a strong political will that identifies and isolates individuals and organisations promoting a violent mindset and does not favour them with political patronage. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sarang_shidore at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 09:08:43 2008 From: sarang_shidore at yahoo.com (Sarang Shidore) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] In Maryland, an intriguing find of slave religious artifacts Message-ID: <170535.19172.qm@web31815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Now, for a change of topic from the usual (north?) India-centric Kashmir, Nizam-e-Mustafa, Batla House etc. (although all these issues are extremely important).   I found this little piece (see below) which appeared today in the NYT most intriguing. The last sentence in the article is perhaps the most telling. The Enlightenment's achievements are many and well-known, and need not be listed here. Yet the "age of reason" also gave birth to new horrors, and new forms of intolerance. We Moderns have not understood this sufficiently well.   A must-read book is "Slave Religion" by Albert Raboteau, which I am reading currently. It is a superb exploration of how ancient African religions were transformed in the New World; generally surviving far better in the more tolerant Catholic Latin America than their near-total suppression and elimination in the Protestant United States.   In Cuba, Haiti, and Brazil, these practices are very much alive to this day, where they go by the names of Santeria, Voodoo, and Candomble respectively. (Years ago, I personally witnessed a Santeria ceremony, which left a lasting impression on me.) African deities, or Orishas, are openly displayed in many Cuban homes, and elaborate religious orders maintain the rites, rituals, and incantations (in Yoruba).   Sarang -----   October 21, 2008 Under Maryland Street, Ties to African Past By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD The New York Times   Over the years of exploring the old houses and streets of Annapolis, Md., archaeologists have uncovered a trove of artifacts of early American slave culture. Among them are humble remains connected with religious practices, which bear the stamp of the slaves’ West African heritage. Early in the 18th century, as they were being baptized, African-Americans clung to “spirit practices” in rituals of healing and the invocation of ancestral and supernatural powers. Sometimes called black magic, these occult rites would persist in America in modified form, later, as voodoo and hoodoo. University of Maryland archaeologists have discovered in Annapolis what they say is one of the earliest examples of traditional African religious artifacts in North America. It is a clay “bundle,” roughly the size and shape of a football, filled with about 300 pieces of metal and a stone axe, whose blade sticks out of the clay, pointing skyward. The bundle, found in April and dated to 1700, appears to be a direct transplant of African religion into what is now the United States, said Mark P. Leone, a professor of anthropology at Maryland who directed the excavations. The materials and construction, he said, differed from the hoodoo caches his teams had previously found in Annapolis. “The bundle is African in design, not African-American,” Dr. Leone said in an announcement of the discovery. “The people who made this used local materials. But their knowledge of the charms and the spirit world probably came with them directly from Africa.” In interviews last week, Dr. Leone and scholars of West African culture said they could not yet determine the bundle’s association with a specific religion or ethnic group. Frederick Lamp, curator of African art at the Yale University Art Gallery, who was not involved in the discovery, said there was “no reason to doubt” the bundle’s direct link to the long tradition of West African religious practices. “But bundles filled with materials seen to have extraordinary spiritual power were used by many different cultures in Africa,” he said. Dr. Lamp noted that X-rays of the bundle’s contents revealed an abundance of lead shot, iron nails and copper pins. “Some of the pins were bent, indicating this was a purposeful part of a ritual,” he said. Metal worked in fire was widely seen as having special power, Dr. Lamp added, “and combining these materials in compacted clay was believed to increase the power of these objects.” The practice, he said, is well documented to this day among the Mande groups, principally in what are now Sierra Leone, Guinea and Mali, and the Yoruba people of Nigeria and Benin. Nor should the Kongo people be ruled out as a source of these religious practices, scholars said. This culture, living in lands around the Congo River and in Angola and Cabinda, was a major source of African-American slaves. Kongo bundles contain stones, shells and other items that are supposed to hold the spirits of the dead for the use of the living in a custom that underlies hoodoo. The bundle’s most striking component, the stone axe, was especially intriguing. Dr. Lamp said this brought to mind the Yoruba and the Fon people of Benin, who considered the axe blade a symbol of Shango, their god of thunder and lightning. Matthew D. Cochran, a doctoral student in anthropology at University College London, who uncovered the bundle, said it would probably prove to be associated with Yoruba practices related to Shango. In the lands of coastal West Africa then, and in its rural areas still, these rituals and materials were used by community practitioners, whose role was akin to that of American Indian medicine men. They were not attached to any world religion, or any institution. But people went to them at small sanctuaries in the woods in time of grief and distress. The practitioners, with one of these bundles at hand, rallied spiritual forces to deal with personal crises. The Annapolis bundle, presumably made by a recent African immigrant, was excavated four feet below Fleet Street, which is near the Maryland Capitol and the waterfront. The object is 10 inches high, 6 inches wide and 4 inches thick. It remains intact, though an outer wrapping, probably of leather or cloth, has decayed, leaving an impression on the clay surface. The bundle is to go on display this week at the African American Museum in Annapolis. Mr. Cochran said that as he dug at the bottom of the trench, the object first appeared to be a flat stone embedded in sediment. Then he saw small bits of lead shot scattered about. As the archaeologists freed the lumpy mass, a corner cracked open, exposing the pins and nails inside. “I had seen hoodoo materials from Annapolis,” Mr. Cochran said, “and my sense immediately was that we had something African and important, but it was unclear what it was.” In the next week, the bundle was examined and X-rayed by experts under the direction of Dr. Leone. The bundle’s age, from the turn of the 18th century, or no later than 1720, was estimated from well-dated pottery shards found in the excavations. But how the object survived the centuries is a mystery, though its placement on what was then the street surface suggests to Dr. Leone a surprising aspect of the practices of slaves at the time. In previous explorations, material remains of African-related religion were almost always found buried in backyards or hidden under hearths and in basement corners. Early African-Americans seemed to practice their spirit rituals in secret. A close examination, Dr. Leone said, showed that the bundle was probably originally placed in the gutter alongside the street, in the open for all to see. At the time the street was paved with logs and sawdust and only later covered with modern surfaces, burying the bundle. Dr. Leone said the bundle’s visibility suggested “an unexpected level of public toleration” of African religion in colonial Annapolis. Most of the artifacts indicating that the practices were conducted in secrecy came from 50 years later. According to articles in a newspaper of the period, white people in Annapolis engaged openly in magic and witchcraft, of the English variety. “So both European and African spirit practices may have been more acceptable then,” Dr. Leone concluded. “That changed after 1750 with the growing influence of the Enlightenment.” From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 13:39:52 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:39:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shameran Abed on Baul Statue & "walkover for bigots" Message-ID: NEW AGE/Oct 21 Yet another walkover for bigots http://www.newagebd.com/2008/oct/21/edit.html#2 Our political parties are so terrified of being branded as anti-religion or anti-Islam by Amini and his like that they too would rather take down a baul monument, as this regime has done, than confront intolerance and bigotry by a band of criminals and misfits, writes Shameran Abed THE sinister political agenda of Islamist bigots were given a significant boost on Wednesday when the present regime, weak and unprincipled as it is, capitulated in the face of pressure from obscurantist forces and tore down a baul sculpture from in front of Zia International Airport. Emboldened by their success, the bigots demanded on Friday that all sculptures in the country be destroyed, even those that commemorate our war of independence. Then, on Sunday, Fazlul Huq Amini, chairman of the Islami Oikya Jote and the foremost champion of religious bigotry, reportedly said that the upcoming parliamentary elections will be fought on the single issue of sculptures, between the lovers of sculpture and the lovers of religion. The intrinsic fallacy of the argument aside, the statement underscores the fact that the bigots have sensed an opening and will exploit it for whatever it is worth. Of all the disservice that the current regime has done to our country in the last 21 months, the aiding and abetting of fundamentalists and bigots must rank at the top. To begin with, members of the Jamaat-e-Islami were largely spared from this regime's anti-corruption crusade, as if they are so incorruptible that none of the BNP's indiscretions rubbed off on them, even after five years of being a major component of the government that is widely considered the most corrupt in our nation's history. Then, more than a year after the anti-corruption drive began in earnest, when this regime finally did come around to arresting the Jamaat chief Matiur Rahman Nizami on charges of corruption, they were indisposed to keeping him behind bars for any significant length of time. He was thus released on bail before any other major politician. If that was not dubious enough, the monkey business that this government is doing with the Jamaat secretary general is. Even though a warrant was issued for the arrest of Ali Ahsan Mohammad Mujahid some weeks back, the police apparently have not been able to capture him until now. Yet, consider this: in the weeks that he has officially been 'absconding', Mujahid has not only held public events but has visited, as a member of the Jamaat delegation, the office of the chief adviser for official talks and even shook hands with Fakhruddin Ahmed. The chief adviser could have put the handcuffs on this fugitive himself, if he was so inclined. It would have made for great television. Also, forget not the role this regime played when bigots laid siege to its women's development policy, which sought to ensure equal rights for women under the law. Then, like now, the regime capitulated and amended sections of the policy after bigots took out processions after Friday prayers for weeks on end to demand that the policy be scrapped. Yet, when women's rights activists attempted to bring out a procession in favour of the policy, the regime invoked the emergency powers rules and broke up the procession. In these 21 months, the emergency powers rules have been invoked many times to break up many processions and demonstrations, from those brought out by students at Dhaka University to those by garments' workers demanding higher pay and rights activists protesting against human rights violations and gender discrimination. Not once, however, have the emergency power rules been invoked to break up a procession brought out by the Islamist bigots. It does not end there. When a freedom fighter was mercilessly beaten by Jamaat activists at a freedom fighters' seminar organised by the Jamaat, which is a ridiculous proposition in the first place, the law enforcement personnel neither provided protection to the victim nor took any action against the perpetrators. This would not have required the invocation of the emergency power rules. Physically assaulting a person is a crime under the ordinary laws of the land the last time this writer checked. What is perhaps most ironic is that the bigots have been able to hold rallies and meetings at will during this period of emergency, but when the Sector Commanders' Forum, made up of bona fide war heroes, tried to organise a convention to generate support for the issue of trial of war criminals, it faced tremendous resistance from this military-controlled regime which initially denied the forum an appropriate venue for the convention. The continual appeasement of obscurantist forces by this regime has naturally encouraged and emboldened the bigots and while the prospect of the end of its dismal tenure later this year may be a silver lining of sorts, the situation is likely to be no better once the country returns to elected rule. This regime has not been the first to give in to these organised forces of darkness, it has just been the latest. The truth is, neither the BNP, which has for almost ten years been allied with the Jamaat, nor the Awami League, which proved through the 2006 Khelafat Majlish deal that it is just as likely to sell its soul to the devil to come to power, can be trusted to take on these bigots if and when they come to power. The parties are so terrified of being branded as anti-religion or anti-Islam by Amini and his like that they too would rather take down a baul monument, as this regime has done, than confront intolerance and bigotry by a band of criminals and misfits. For those who feel sickened by sights of bigots rejoicing as government agencies pull down a monument commemorating Lalon Fakir, who, by the way, happened to be a great progressive, the options on offer in the upcoming elections are entirely unpalatable. Even in the United States where there is apparently little difference left between the two major political parties as far as economic policies are concerned, a clear line can still be drawn on the cultural issues. Social progressives can give their vote to the Democratic Party safe in the knowledge that the Democrats will not take away abortion rights of women, just as rural conservatives can give their vote to the Republican Party safe in the knowledge that their second amendment rights to bear firearms will be protected by the GOP. In Bangladesh, the bigots have plenty of choices, but which party can social progressives give their vote to in the upcoming elections and be certain that it will fight bigotry and intolerance on their behalf? In the last couple of days, thankfully, we have seen the first signs of a movement to resist the forward march of the obscurantist forces, originating as these movement always do at Dhaka University, which for all its degeneration and decay still remains the foremost bastion of progressive thought. However, in the absence of political leadership on the one hand and the unwillingness of our civil society stalwarts to rise to the challenge on the other, will the progressives who have raised their voice be able to sustain their fight against forces as determined and organised as the obscurantists are? Time will tell. From aarti.mundkur at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 15:34:38 2008 From: aarti.mundkur at gmail.com (Aarti Mundkur) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:34:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] day 10 of the Naz V UOI hearing Message-ID: <48FDA936.4080803@gmail.com> Day Ten of the Naz Hearings (20.10.08) Just as the ASG began to continue his submissions , consul for the petitioners asked the Court as how much longer the arguments would continue. J. Shah said that they hoped the ASG would finish today and that on two other days , Nov 6 and Nov 7, 2008 the other respondents JACK and BP Singhal would address their arguments and the petitioner could do the rejoinder. With that the hearings would be completed. The ASG continued by saying that for AIDS to spread there were three causes, man to man , man to woman and through blood and that man to woman sex can never be stopped. Only thing is that we have to educate persons who are indulging in unprotected sex, be it man to man or man to woman. J. Shah responded by asking if the ASG meant that education about safer sex was required ? The ASG responded by saying that ‘permitting it would mean giving sanction to it, people would freely indulge in it.’ Between man and wife its one person one partner in normal circumstances. Those who indulge in abnormal sex have a larger number of partners. Their partners keep changing and each subsequent act increases the chances of it. By all canons, disastrous diseases should be prevented. Consent has no meaning. These are the consequences. Just because a person has consented to die is no ground. The ASG then referred to Art 15 and began to read it. J. Shah said that Art 15 cannot be invoked unless we accept the word sex includes sexual orientation. The ASG submitted that ‘our constitution does not talk about sexual orientation’. Large number of people are doing these things and Art 15 does not help in anyway. The ASG then proceeded to read Art 19 and the written submission of the petitioner. He contended that the arguments of the petitioner that Sec 377 violated the right to freedom of expression was not right. The ASG noted that freedom of expression means that they are able to express their views. That is permitted. It does not mean that act become legal. They can canvass their opinion before parliament, just as opposing parties are also canvassing their opinions. The ASG contended that it is wrong to say that the Section produces a culture of silence around these issues as ‘they are expressing it here and can express elsewhere’. ‘One can certainly argue against this section, and it is permitted through the mode of speech. They have had conferences, processions, meetings, parades- does this violate fundamental rights ? Is there a fundamental right to indulge in these kinds of activities?’ The ASG then proceeded to cite , (19992) 3 SCC 637 and (1995) 2 SCC 161 and said that these judgments are about the freedom of speech and expression and how it includes the right to receive information and how they have no relevance at all to Sec 377. The ASG repeated that ‘you can express your views. There is no controversy. You are permitted to say that Sec 377 should be deleted. How is it hit by Art 19(1)? J. Shah noted that these judgments were well known judgements and were relied upon for the limited purpose of showing the extent and scope of Art 19(1) and that he had nothing further to say if the ASG insisted on reading them. Referring to the second judgment (19995) 2 SCC 162 , the Cricket Association of Bengal case, the ASG noted that in that case the Court had to balance the rights of broadcasters versus the rights of citizens. Similarly in this case the Court would have to balance the rights. When as per NACO affidavit more than ‘99.7 % do not indulge , and they are not suffering, they have a right to be informed. Inform them that this has bad effects, leads to death etc’ J. Shah responded by saying that as per the WHO homosexuality was not a disease. ASG replied that , while homosexuality was not a disease it was a main cause of disease. What is required is education, treatment for them. They cannot claim that a law is unconstitutional merely because they suffer some hardship J. Shah said that the argument was not about hardship, it was about how the law was used by the police to harass. The ASG responded by saying that the answer lies in the Union of India’s affidavit. J. Shah said that we drew your attention to it, and why is the law required when nobody has been prosecuted ? The ASG responded by saying that ‘if the law goes, everybody on the street will be doing it and it will spread like anything. If permitted it will have disastrous effects’ The ASG proceeded to conclude that the arguments of the petitioner under Art 19 did not advance the cause of the petitioner any further. The ASG then proceeded to read the arguments of the respondent Voices Against Sec 377 on freedom of expression, that Sec 377 connoted a structural limitation to the free exercise of ones opinions in a meaningful manner. He also read , that freedom of expression was important for self fulfilment and free conscience. He further read that, ‘Sec 377 IPC by criminalizing homosexual acts has a chilling effect on the free speech and expression of LGBT persons. The shadow of criminality cast by Section 377 curtails a free and frank discussion on issues of sexuality, which enables people to publicly own their identity. Whereas, wearing religious symbols or other markers of one’s identity is a public expression something that is essential to one’s identity and is protected by the law, section 377 does not allow sexual minorities to openly express their sexuality, an aspect that is intrinsic to whom they are, and is hence in violation of their right to expression. The real test for Freedom of Speech and Expression lies in its ability to enable speech that may challenge popular opinions. Section 377 serves to criminalise expression of minorities which may challenge dominant opinions. Section 377 prevent sexual minorities to effectively take part in any democratic society that is based on equality and social justice.;’ The ASG contended that ‘expression of ones opinions is one thing, but to say that the commission of these acts is hit by Art 19 is wrong. Expression of opinion is not an offence, only commission of an act is an offence’. The ASG went on to note that ‘law is what society feels to be immoral. Public opinion is the law. Three law Commission Reports have held that Sec 377 is to be retained. J. Shah interjected to say that the LCI report in 2000 suggests that Sec 376 be reformulated and that Sec 377 be deleted. The ASG responded and said that he will read the LCI Report of 2000. J. Shah responded that we have read it and that ‘we will not ask you a single question, please proceed to read it.’ The ASG then proceeded to refer to Bowers and Lawrence’s case and said that in both cases there were strong divergent opinions. There is also a lot of difference between our Constitution and the American Constitution. He began to read J. Scalias dissenting judgment and then said that it was a long judgement and based on a suggestion by J. Shah agreed to mark relevant parts and place it before the Court. The ASG then submitted that under The VII schedule of the Constitution, criminal law including the IPC was in the concurrent list. Since the various states which had made many amendments to the criminal laws had not amended Sec 377 and Sec 377 remained a statutory provision on the books. Since 1860 even after the coming into force of the Constitution, no state has thought of amending it because it affects public morality and health. States know the needs of the people and none so far as amended Sec 377. ‘It leads to perverse thought, perverse ideas and it is a perversity.’ The ASG then contended that we have to ‘think more of the other sections, marriage laws will have to be amended’. Sec 13(i) on grounds of divorce will have to be changed. J. Shah wanted to know since the ASG submitted that ‘you cant stop relations between a man and a woman’ how decriminalizing sex between consenting adults would have the effect of changing the law of divorce. He observed that this was not relevant and even assuming it was, decriminalisation would have no effect on the divorce laws. The ASG then noted that consent with respect to transfer of organs under the Tranfer of Organs Act was prohibited. One cannot willingly give kidneys to another person. J. Shah observed that was a different situation at which point the ASG said that ‘if it did not find favour with his Lordship’ he would not continue with that submission. Referring to notions of decency and morality the ASG noted that , ‘ in our country it is immoral on the face of it. Society has a fundamental right to save itself from AID’s. This right is far greater than any right of the less than 1% who are in this programme. The health of society should be considered and it is the greatest health hazard for this country. If permitted it is bound to have enormous impact on society as young people will then say that the High Court has permitted it.’ J. Shah observed that ‘we are still hearing the matter and are yet to decide the matter and you are speaking like we have already decided’ The ASG then apologized if he had given that impression and proceeded to read a judgment on the minimum wages legislation to make the point that consent was not always relevant particularly when it came to a question of workers agreeing to take wages lesser than the prescribed minimum wage, as maintenance of health and decency guided the Court decision. The ASG then repeated his submission that hardship cannot be a ground of decrminalization. He then repeated his submissions on how AID’s would spread with decriminalisation. The ASG then proceeded to give a compilation of material to the Court and proceeded to read from it. He relied upon the material which included a UNAID’s 2008 Report on the Global AID’s epidemic and a study of HIV and AIDs by Vinod Sharma and quoted from it extensively to make the point that homosexual sex in the primary driver of the AID’s epidemic. The ASG noted that anal sex has the highest risk for the receptive partner. He said that ‘in sex with a male, chances of blood oozing out from the anus are higher as nature has defined the vagina and the rectum diffeently.’ He said that the rate of partner change will mean that the disease will spread more. The ASG then read statistics from around the world from the UNAIDs Report to make the case that though HIV spread through MSM, IDU and Sexworkers the major mode of spread was MSM. He referred to figures from Mexico, Carribean, Peru, Eastern Europe, America and Germany. When he referred to Egypt as well in the same light, J. Shah interrupted to note that the figures from Egypt was inspite of the country having some very strict laws . J. Shah noted that these figures were seen by the Court and indicated that the ASG should move on. When the ASG insisted on continuing to read, J. Shah requested him to read a specific part of the Report which made the point that, among the factors for the spread of HIV was unprotected sex, multiple sex partners, injecting drug users and factors which aided the spread included lack of knowledge, societal factors such as human rights violations and sociocultural norms. Sociocultural norms stigmatised certain populations and limited their ability to access HIV prevention. The ASG responded by saying that ‘every citizen was not aware of this and persons should know that he will suffer if he has sex with him. Prevention is better than cure.’ The ASG was then asked to read the portion from the Report which made the point that the global HIV epidemic cannot be reversed unless a majority of MSM’s, IDU’s are reached. He was also asked to read the part which made the point that, prevention programmes will not be effective unless supported by programmes which address social factors and the marginalization of people most at risk. MSM face a disproportionate risk in diverse settings and yet they are seriously underserved by HIVservices. Counsel for the petitioners interjected to state that an important part of the Report was the commitments undertaken by each country in the UN General Assembly Special Session (UNGASS ) on HIV/ AIDs. Counsel stressed that these were commitments undertaken by each country, not externally imposed which made the point that countries recognized that laws targeting MSM’s prevented programes on HIV/Aids from being successful. Counsel for the petitioners went on to point out that the study also referred to the Sonagachi model or the community empowerment model as key to fighting HIV/AIDS. When the ASG was asked by J. Shah if he was done with the compilation, he said that he would like to read from the annexures. He read figures on death from AID’s in India, no of people who were HIV positive , number of orphans due to AIDs. The response of the Bench to each of these submissions was a laconic yes. The ASG then went on to state that it had taken him six days to come to the conclusion that MSM sex causes AID’s. He said that society should be educated and they have a right to save themselves. There is the right of 99.7% to have a healthy life. You cannot have a right over another persons right to life with dignity. You have a right to live away from disease. The ASG then concluded his submissions. J. Shah summarized the ASG’s submissions as covering the grounds that there was no right of privacy in the Indian Constitution and if there was a right to privacy it can be curtailed on the grounds of a larger morality or the rights of society. Art 14 is applicable to all and does not target a particular class, Art 15 the word sex does not include sexual orientation. If the bar on consensual sex between same sex adults is lifted, even if the provision is not used, it is a moral code. It creates fear in the minds of people which will go if removed. If the provision goes then this conduct will spread and this will lead to more spread of diseases. Right to health as a part of Art 21 should also consider the health of society. Counsel for BP Singhal , R- 7, Mr. H.P. Sharma then began his submissions. Mr. Sharma began by saying that the word carnal referred to flesh and what it meant when used in the IPC was fleshy intercourse be it oral or anal or whatever. J. Muralidhar then asked counsel who he was representing Mr Sharma said that he was representing B.P.Singhal. J. Muralidhar then asked , who was BP Singhal Mr Sharma replied that he was a social worker and he was representing the matter so that the majority view could be there. Mr. Sharma continued his submissions by stating that against nature meant that it was unnatural, immoral and irrational. When it is a social evil then there is no question of consent. He then referred to an article by Dr. Diggs on how sex between men was linked to HIV. J. Shah responded by saying that place anything before us but not Dr Diggs. Counsel for the petitioner submitted that Dr. Diggs was a part of a religious network called the Traditional Values Foundation. When counsel for R-6 sought to rely upon another Dr. Lepak, J. Shah asked the question of whether this was research and that counsel could rely upon a government source, UN body, but not rely upon these materials. Consel then proceeded to read the NACO affidavit to make the point that only 36% used condoms and that 64% did not use condoms. Further they did it at public places , had multiple partners and were not faithful. J. Shah asked counsel to address arguments on constitutional grounds like Art 14, 19 or 21. Counsel continued his submissions to note that on a reading of the NACO affidavit , HIV is one part and homosexuality is another part. If Homosexuality was allowed, there was a chance of epidemic of HIV. If 64% do not use condoms and surrender to the disease then they cant come to court and say legalize it. He went on to submit that he would like to support the affidavit of the Ministry of Home. If man is married and wife is sitting at home, then what will happen to her ? If you allow this on grounds of two consenting adults then, brother sister marriage should be allowed. Gambling, adultery should be allowed. J. Shah interjected to say that ‘you are missing the point, it is not about the lawfulness of marriage.’ Counsel for R7 submitted that he was on morality, the joint family structure and that we must not import evils from the west. We have traditional values and we must go by that. It would affect the institution of marriage and if women get doubt about what their husbands are doing, there will be a flood of cases of divorce. He then read the Sakshi case to contend that you cannot judicially interpret a statute to include all forms of penetration and further the Sakshi judgment had laid down that the South African judgment could not be used. J. Shah noted that the judgment was a different one from what was relied upon by the petitioners and asked counsel if he was contending that no foreign judgement could be relied upon ? Counsel contended that that was his submission J. Shah noted that there were hundreds of judgments of the Supreme Court which had cited authorities from other countries. He also noted that Sakshi was about adding words to the statute, not deleting words. Counsel for R 6 submitted that ‘if you cant add , you cant delete.’ He went on to add that Sec 498 A was challenged , Sec 302 was challenged and all these provisions were still on the statute book. He then went on the read from 2004 Cri.L.J 310 , to make the point that we should not blindly follow British parliament and the Wolfenden Committee Report. The judgment referred to HLA Hart’s , Law liberty and Morals and J. Shah asked Counsel to produce the same. He went on to submit that the test was what an ordinary man would have done under criminal law. It is a common sense test. He drew an analogy to Sec 40 of Cr.P.C which referred to unnatural death to make the point that it means irrational, illogical and therefore Sec 377 referred to sex which was irrational and illogical. He went on to note that what would happen to the country in 2100 if there was this indulging in homosexuality as the sex ratio would change. J. Shah asked according to your Hindu orthodox opinion what was the reason for the sex ratio being skewed in favour of men ? Counsel for R-7 submitted that it was a social evil. One should worship girls. No sensible person can kill a child. Abortion should not be allowed. The social evil is that a girl is an unwanted child. He further added that it was poverty, which resulted in this social evil. J. Shah pointed out that even in well off families there are studies, which show that there is 100% termination of foetuses when parents come to know that it is a girl child. Counsel for R-7 submitted that socio-economic factors, dowry, illegitmate children, very unpious sex outside marriage is a ground. J. Shah asked Counsel for R-7 to restrict his arguments to law and asked him to refrain from political arguments. The Court rose and the matter was posted for the 6^th and 7^th November, 2008. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 15:48:48 2008 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:48:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Citizens' March to parliament to demand Judicial Enquiry into the Jamia Nagar 'Encounter'. In-Reply-To: <323d69640810202139n53248cbbq575afb2b054af295@mail.gmail.com> References: <192fb7330810200500i6e058bd7re7682581e8496183@mail.gmail.com> <7d83bfe90810200731p713eb4efh23d43344a41ed3f7@mail.gmail.com> <323d69640810202139n53248cbbq575afb2b054af295@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0810210318u74ecfc5fr8790db26f68601a0@mail.gmail.com> > > > > > > *Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group* > > ** > > *Calls for a* > > *Citizens' March to Parliament* > > ** > > *to demand* > > ** > > *Judicial Enquiry under a sitting Judge of the Supreme Court into the > Jamia Nagar 'Encounter'* > > * * > > *24th October (Friday); * > > ** > > *Assemble at Jantar Mantar, 11 a.m.*** > > > > *Join in large numbers* > > > > > > Anuradha (9868881756) > > Sreerekha (9868120339) > > Manisha (9811625577) > > Adil (9990923027) for JTSG > > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 13:39:06 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:39:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Artist Camellia Shishir Dead Message-ID: While Dhaka University/Charukala department has been in siege mode due to daily protests by artists against Lalan/Baul statues from ZIA airport, the campus was shocked yesterday by the sudden death of artist Camellia Shishir, wife of artist, teacher and leader of influential Shomoy group Shishir Bhattacharya. The campus today was full of grieving students as her body was brought to the CharuKala campus. Shishir Bhattacharya's work was featured in "War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning" at Palazzo Papesse, Siena. Image of Camellia http://thedailystar.net/photo/2008/10/21/2008-10-21__cul7.jpg DAILY STAR Artist Camellia Shishir passes away Cultural Correspondent Artist Camellia Shishir passed away at LabAid Cardiac Hospital on October 19. She was 43. She left behind a daughter Srabonti and husband, noted artist Shishir Bhattacharya. Camellia completed her MFA in Oriental Art from the Institute of Fine Arts (now Faculty of Fine Arts), Dhaka University From whitenoise24 at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 16:56:06 2008 From: whitenoise24 at gmail.com (sridevi panikkar) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:26:06 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] NHRC Report on Salwa Judum: CPJC Statement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: CPJC Date: Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 12:01 PM Subject: CPJC Statement on NHRC Report on Salwa Judum To: * * *Campaign for Peace & Justice in Chhattisgarh * *c/o F-10/12, GF, Malviya Nagar, New Delhi* ** *Website: www.cpjc.wordpress.com Email: cpjcindia at gmail.com * * * 19th October 2008 Since 2005 the Chhattisgarh government has claimed that the Salwa Judum is a "peaceful people's movement", that "the villagers are never forced to join the camps". They claimed that no minors were appointed as SPOs. It also resisted any independent enquiry, saying "There is no failure on part of state of Chhattisgarh and therefore independent investigation is uncalled for and unwarranted." The NHRC investigation into Salwa Judum which was carried out on the orders of the Supreme Court found that this claim by the Chhattisgarh government regarding Salwa Judum was patently false. They found prima facie evidence of large scale burning of villages, large numbers of missing people, the fact that many people had been forced into camps against their will (though most they claim have subsequently returned), and the appointment of minors as SPOs in the initial stages at least. Some Nelasnar camp residents, they note, "left the village due to atrocities committed by the Naga police." This one example is clearly the proverbial tip of the iceberg. The NHRC investigation revealed that SPOs have been involved in "certain incidents of atrocities against the tribals" and in some instances (e.g Matwada camp killings), the security forces and SPOs seemed to be prima-facie responsible for extra judicial killings. They have also not ruled out the possibility that, as in the Matwada case, other FIRs registered could be false. However, given the powers and responsibility of the NHRC, it has manifestly failed to bring out the full truth of what is happening in Dantewada district, Chhattisgarh. The National Human Rights Commission is a statutory body, mandated to be an autonomous overseer of human rights across the country. The current report is unfortunately a negation of this responsibility. There are inherent infirmities in the present report (i) the composition of the team which consisted solely of police, (ii) the process of public enquiry, which involved SPOs and Salwa Judum activists acting as translators, coupled with intimidation of witnesses (iii) the manner in which conclusions have been arrived at by the NHRC's investigating team. It is these which has led the NHRC investigation team to downplay its own findings on the atrocities committed by the SPOs and Salwa Judum activists and concentrate on the violence of the Naxalites. Curiously despite being so focused on the Naxalites, the report nowhere mentions that the state is already seized of this problem, having sent more than ten battalions of paramilitaries to the district, and spent crores of rupees on battling Naxalism. It did not need an investigation by the NHRC to uncover the Naxalite 'problem'. *1. Composition of the team and method of enquiry*: * * The investigation team comprised solely of police officers. It did not have any representative of the local tribal communities or even any of the NGOs associated with the NHRC who had asked to be associated with it. The team went to various Salwa Judum camps and villages in an armed convoy which included Salwa Judum leaders and members, Special Police Officers (SPOs) and the Superintendent Police of Dantewada. Concerns that the arrival of a convoy of anti-mine tanks, preceded by road clearing exercises, would do little to instill confidence in villagers who were already terrified by the violence of the Salwa Judum and security forces, had earlier been raised with the NHRC and have been fully borne out by the findings of the investigating team itself. The NHRC report itself acknowledges at least two instances, in Pusbaka and Chikurubatti villages, where the villagers ran away seeing the police/CRPF accompanying the team. *2. Flawed Investigation - insufficient and biased acceptance of evidence: * It is not just the petitioners who have been raising the issue of human rights violations by Salwa Judum and security forced in Dantewada and Bijapur. Several independent civil and democratic rights groups have been consistently raising questions about the manner in which the government has armed civilians and the impunity with which the militarized nexus of Salwa Judum, Police, SPOs and the CRPF has unleashed violence on the local population. This is also probably the only instance where several government agencies, including the Planning Commission, the Administrative Reforms Commission, National Commission for Women and the National Commission for Protection of Child Rights, have also condemned the counter-insurgency strategy employed by the government. The NCPCR report based on a fact-finding by Prof. Shanta Sinha, Mr. JM Lyngdoh (former CEC) and Mr Venkat Reddy, based on testimonies of at least 35 victims in Cherla, noted that "many people shared accounts of family members being killed and women raped by the Salwa Judum" and again, based on a public hearing in Kirandul, "There were numerous accounts of family members being killed for resisting the Salwa Judum". The NHRC has unfortunately chosen to ignore all such reports. Though NHRC report claims to reach several conclusions, it summarily rejects several of the complaints in the petition by saying that they have "not been substantiated", based either on insufficient evidence or a specious acceptance of the police version. Some instances are: i) The NHRC has made registration of FIRs as the bench mark of ascertaining whether an incident of violence took place or not. The NHRC seems to have charily ignored the fact that in cases where state agencies are responsible for human rights violations people would be unable to lodge FIRs for fear of their life or that false FIRs may have been lodged by the police themselves falsely implicating others. This even though the report itself admits at least one instance where a villager was killed by Salwa Judum activists no FIR has been registered. ii) The report uncritically accepts the police version of the cases and makes that the basis for "substantiation" or otherwise. This even as the report itself has had to admit at least one instance- in the Matwada case which was highlighted due to the efforts of local groups, that false FIR has been filed by the police blaming Naxals for an incident which was prima facie committed by Salwa Judum and security. iii) In at least two cases, the NHRC visited the wrong village – of the same name but in a different thana. In the case of Polampalli in Usur thana, which was used as a test case to say that rape was not substantiated, despite the correct details being mentioned in the petition, the NHRC team visited Polampalli in Dornapal thana. iv) The NHRC team has ignored the evidence provided by independent journalists and others which contradicted the police version and accepted the police version at face value. In the Santoshpur case for instance, at least 4 independent journalists have separately and one after another confirmed to the killing of Kodiya Bojja by SPOs, based on interviews with next of kin soon after incident. NHRC however uncritically accepts police version that he was killed by Naxalites. v) Most strikingly, all testimonies given by IDPs in Andhra Pradesh regarding killings of their relatives by Salwa Judum and SPOs have been discarded, while all testimonies given by camp residents and villagers regarding killing by Naxalites has been accepted at face value. The AP testimonies have been ignored even when they are corroborated by the evidence of burnt and abandoned villages (e.g. Kottacheru, Lingagiri etc.) *3. Several misleading conclusions: *It is not clear how NHRC came to its conclusion that no village was being discriminated against for not joining Salwa Judum camps when it notes that rations are available only in camp and that Salwa Judum is identified with the camps, and that "the only government agency active in the area is the police". The National Commission for the Protection of Child Rights had noted in its fact-finding report, that 'A big problem is that schools and Anganwadi teachers have been shifted from the villages to the camps leading to a concentration of service-providers in camps and no services available to those who are still living in villages.' 4. The NHRC avers to some instances where security forces and SPOs seem to be prima facie responsible for extra judicial killings. It states that it came across certain cases in which the "excesses" have been committed by 'public servants' and where the State has proceeded against those "who failed to operate within the four corners of the law". However it does not give details of any such instances. Till date, the Dantewada and Bijapur district administrations, the Chhattisgarh Police and the Chhattisgarh Government have not accepted or made public the cases where Police Officers, Special Police Officers or CRPF personnel in Dantewada and Bijapur have been proceeded against for violation of law. * * *5. Justifies Vigilantism:* Most worrying however is the manner in which the NHRC report openly justifies Salwa Judum on the grounds that people cannot be denied the right to defend themselves against the atrocities perpetrated by Naxalites thus condoning civil vigilantism and arming one section of the society against the other, which in fact represents abdication of the State itself. Justice Rajendra Babu, Chairperson, NHRC had said in one interview, "The NHRC has not given a clean chit to Salwa Judum. What we said in our report to the Supreme Court was that the problems afflicting Chhattisgarh are not law and order problems but socio-economic ones." Burning villages, and extra-judicial killings are surely law and order problems. Meanwhile the Raman Singh government which has come under a lot of criticism for its support to Salwa Judum is going all out to publicise this biased report as a vindication of its disastrous strategy. We hope that the Supreme Court and the wider public sees the biases the report evidently demonstrates. At the same time, even the limited findings by the NHRC are sufficient to indict Salwa Judum and SPOs as an extra-constitutional, vigilante force which must be disbanded forthwith. Those who wish to must be allowed to return home, and all victims, whether of Salwa Judum or Naxalites must be given compensation on an equal footing. A judicial enquiry is essential to establish the scale of victimization and prosecute those who are guilty. - -- Campaign for Peace and Justice in Chhattisgarh Email: cpjcindia at gmail.com; Website:www.cpjc.wordpress.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 18:21:56 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:21:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , so called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a disinformation campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed more closely. Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links ascertained. Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. Pawan Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, > burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder > when they will join the mainstream? > > best > shivam > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > By M.V. Kamath > > > > Organiser > > > > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary > > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to > > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing > > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the > > Indian mainstream. > > > > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of > > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim > > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western > > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate > > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > > > > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad > > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more > > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it > > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval > > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- > > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But > > then whose fault is it. > > > > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being > > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past > > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims > > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last > > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats > > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were > > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited > > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart > > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win > > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > > > > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if > > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got > > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha > > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the > > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won > > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok > > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have > > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats > > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though > > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they > > managed to secure 49—not bad. > > > > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of > > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to > > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but > > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined > > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got > > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four > > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. > > > > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and > > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of > > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting > > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when > > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be > > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied > > religions. > > > > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating > > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad > > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They > > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no > > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to > > win their favour. > > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims > > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a > > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure > > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream > > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party > > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. > > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but > > only seven could succeed. > > > > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens > > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people > > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah > > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed > > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves > > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the > > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the > > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that > > you want to stay separate. > > > > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the > > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > > > > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere > > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not > > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not > > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or > > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they > > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An > > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian > > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims > > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because > > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. > > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > > > > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his > > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic > > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to > > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic > > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > > > > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue > > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not > > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims > > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and > > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to > > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a > > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be > > shunned like the very devil. > > > > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to > > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh > > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. > > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may > > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote > > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? > > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > > > > 150&page=12 --- > > ..................................................................... > > .................................... > > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > > Mayank Patel > > > > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong > > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and > > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past > > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action > > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and > > reconciliation. > > > > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous > > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who > > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have > > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian > > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic > > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. > > > > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable > > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda > > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming > > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. > > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring > > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting > > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. > > > > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be > > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes > > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course > > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could > > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, > > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far > > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal > > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > > > > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian > > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish > > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain > > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite > > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 > > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s > > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not > > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On > > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not > > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > > > > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial > > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who > > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not > > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged > > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims > > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. > > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > > > > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. > > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often > > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be > > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian > > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve > > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor > > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of > > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies > > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > > > > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, > > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance > > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef > > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. > > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing > > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing > > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > > > > Related story: > > > > Forgive, not Forget History @ > > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > > e2%80%93-history/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Oct 21 18:48:30 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:48:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , so > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a disinformation > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed > more closely. > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > ascertained. > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. > > > > Pawan > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind > > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >> when they will join the mainstream? >> >> best >> shivam >> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > By M.V. Kamath >> > >> > Organiser >> > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >> > Indian mainstream. >> > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >> > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >> > then whose fault is it. >> > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >> > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >> > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >> > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >> > religions. >> > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >> > win their favour. >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >> > only seven could succeed. >> > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >> > you want to stay separate. >> > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >> > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >> > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >> > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >> > shunned like the very devil. >> > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >> > >> > 150&page=12 --- >> > ..................................................................... >> > .................................... >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >> > Mayank Patel >> > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >> > reconciliation. >> > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >> > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >> > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >> > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >> > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >> > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >> > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >> > >> > Related story: >> > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >> > e2%80%93-history/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 19:04:45 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <178033.37345.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>   If minorities of INDIA enjoying spectaculous reservations and benefits and damaging the country like anything, whats wrong if a single state provide reservation to pandits?Today Maharashtra,tomorrow every state in India will do so?   Regards, Dhatri. --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: From: Shivam Vij शिवम् Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:48 PM Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , so > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a disinformation > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed > more closely. > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > ascertained. > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. > > > > Pawan > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind > > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >> when they will join the mainstream? >> >> best >> shivam >> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > By M.V. Kamath >> > >> > Organiser >> > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >> > Indian mainstream. >> > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >> > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >> > then whose fault is it. >> > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >> > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >> > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >> > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >> > religions. >> > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >> > win their favour. >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >> > only seven could succeed. >> > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >> > you want to stay separate. >> > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >> > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >> > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >> > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >> > shunned like the very devil. >> > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >> > >> > 150&page=12 --- >> > ...................................................................... >> > .................................... >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >> > Mayank Patel >> > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >> > reconciliation. >> > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >> > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >> > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >> > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >> > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >> > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >> > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >> > >> > Related story: >> > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >> > e2%80%93-history/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Oct 21 19:31:26 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:31:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <178033.37345.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <178033.37345.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810210701m1a5ff1e6h5182ea2bebf1a921@mail.gmail.com> Did I say there's something wrong with that? That's a strawman On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > If minorities of INDIA enjoying spectaculous reservations and benefits and damaging the country like anything, whats wrong if a single state provide reservation to pandits?Today Maharashtra,tomorrow every state in India will do so? > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:48 PM > > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , > so > > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a disinformation > > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed > > more closely. > > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > > ascertained. > > > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. > > > > > > > > Pawan > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind > > > > > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > >> > >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, > >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder > >> when they will join the mainstream? > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> > By M.V. Kamath > >> > > >> > Organiser > >> > > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary > >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to > >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing > >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from > the > >> > Indian mainstream. > >> > > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of > >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim > >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western > >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only > alienate > >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > >> > > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is > bad > >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more > >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it > >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the > medieval > >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- > >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. > But > >> > then whose fault is it. > >> > > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being > >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support.. > Past > >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails > Muslims > >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last > >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of > seats > >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population > were > >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, > forfeited > >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart > >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly > win > >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > >> > > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, > if > >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have > got > >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha > >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the > >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims > won > >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third > Lok > >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have > >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of > seats > >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though > >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats > they > >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. > >> > > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number > of > >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth > to > >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats > but > >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined > >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims > got > >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, > four > >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. > >> > > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and > >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of > >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by > putting > >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when > >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be > >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and > allied > >> > religions. > >> > > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that > hating > >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad > >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They > >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no > >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth > to > >> > win their favour. > >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of > Muslims > >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, > a > >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent > figure > >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream > >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party > >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. > >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but > >> > only seven could succeed. > >> > > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim > citizens > >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving > people > >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the > Shah > >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an > ISI-financed > >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom > themselves > >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the > >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, > the > >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves > that > >> > you want to stay separate. > >> > > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the > >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > >> > > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to > adhere > >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not > >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not > >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or > >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they > >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. > An > >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own > Indian > >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary > Muslims > >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram > because > >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to > Durga. > >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > >> > > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his > >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic > >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to > >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser > Islamic > >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > >> > > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their > cue > >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not > >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. > Muslims > >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy > and > >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to > >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a > >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be > >> > shunned like the very devil. > >> > > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs > to > >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community.. > Sareh > >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. > >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time > may > >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may > vote > >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime > Minister? > >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > >> > > >> > 150&page=12 --- > >> > > ...................................................................... > >> > .................................... > >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > >> > Mayank Patel > >> > > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong > >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany > and > >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past > >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action > >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and > >> > reconciliation. > >> > > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than > generous > >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc.. > who > >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have > >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of > Indian > >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection > tactic > >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. > >> > > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond > reasonable > >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single > agenda > >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming > >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that > election. > >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring > >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting > >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. > >> > > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should > not be > >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly > presumes > >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course > >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake > could > >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, > >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen > far > >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal > >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > >> > > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong > Indian > >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would > not wish > >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also > certain > >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is > quite > >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are > 165 > >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over > India"s > >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not > >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. > On > >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not > >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > >> > > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial > >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies > who > >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are > not > >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this > alleged > >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims > >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. > >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > >> > > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. > >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can > often > >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be > >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian > >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi > ve > >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor > >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of > >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide > allies > >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > >> > > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. > More-over, > >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over > reliance > >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological > beef > >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. > >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing > >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing > >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > >> > > >> > Related story: > >> > > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ > >> > > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > >> > e2%80%93-history/ > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Oct 21 20:52:18 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:52:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahbaz Ahmed wrongly charged in connection with serial bomb blasts in Jaipur Message-ID: <9c06aab30810210822l55f1f371r5015d781d1e6c1cc@mail.gmail.com> Shahbaz Ahmed wrongly charged in connection with serial bomb blasts in Jaipur A PUCL-PUHR report Shahbaz Ahmed s/o Mumtaz Ahmed (9889406961) , resident of Bhadohi, 32 years old, was a member of SIMI as a student. He completed his B.Sc. and then B.J. from Kashi Vidyapeeth in Varanasi . Two years after completion of his studies he got married to Sadaf d/o Abdul Moid (9792439090) in 2002. Since he was not interested in the carpet business of his father he decided to move to Lucknow in 2004 with his wife to try his luck as a journalist. His father-in-law spent 8.5 lakh rupees after selling his house in Sultanpur to buy and renovate a house for Sadaf and Shahbaz in Molviganj, Lucnkow. Additionally, he spent Rs. 1 lakh to help him get started with a cyber café business couple of years ago. However, he changed his business to Career consultancy, training and foreign education. He was also planning to start a travel agency. According to his wife, who herself is a B.Com and CIC from KNI in Sultanpur, Shahbaz was a soft spoken and introvert but polite person. He used to offer Namaz five times a day but was not a fundamentalist. He used to wear western clothing and would occasionally take her to cinema and parks. In fact, she said that she was pleasantly surprised that Shahbaz was not a very conservative person and allowed her independence in various matters. He was not proficient in Urdu and could read it with difficulty. He used to write in Hindi and English. He desired to send his children, three in number with the eldest being 4 years old, to City Montessori School , a modern centre of education in Lucknow . Shahbaz had discontinued his association with SIMI after marriage. The owner of Adarsh Market, where his shop Zyna Career Consultants was located, Rais Ansari, said that he would not have renewed the contract with Shahbaz if he would have found anything wrong with him. On the contrary, he was full of praise for his behaviour. Naveen Sharma, who has a shop on the first floor of the building in which Shahbaz was on second floor, was shocked at the implication of Shahbaz in bomb blast incident. Shahbaz would exchange greetings when passing by his shop in going up to and coming down from his shop. Mohammad Mubin Bablu, the President of Aminabad Vyapar Mandal Madhya, of which Shahbaz was a member, testified to his professional qualities. Mohammed Furkan, in the business of footwear, and Arjun Singh, a retd. Government employee, who lives in the neighbourhood of Shahbaz found nothing unusual with Shahbaz. He used to exchange greetings with everybody while going to and coming from his shop. He did not have any group of friends or frequent visitors. Shahbaz preferred to spend time with his family when away from work. He used to get some newspapers and periodicals at his home, but none of them of religious nature. The office bearers of Jamat-e-Islami, whose office he would pass by everyday while going to and coming back from work, confirmed that he never attended any of their meetings or social functions. He probably never went there. It was alleged by Rajasthan police that transactions in crores had taken place from his bank account. We checked both his bank accounts. In the account with IndusInd Bank which he recently tried to open with a cheque of Rs. 10,000, the balance was zero as the cheque had bounced. In another account with SBI, initially in the name of Sadaf in which Shahbaz's name was also added later, the balance was Rs. 1,806. There was no transaction between December, 2007 and May, 2008. The single largest transaction was that of Rs. 15,000. The bank accounts portray a picture of a struggling middle class entrepreneur who was mostly raising his family on his daily earnings. He had only two employees at his shop - an assistant Sarika and a helper Rahul, incidentally both Hindu. His neighbours and shop owners in proximity of his shop confirmed that he hardly used to travel outside. His wife mentioned a few occasions when he went on vacation with his family. He had never been to Jaipur, which was also confirmed by Mahendra Chaudhary, Addl. S.P. and the investigating officer of Rajasthan Police in his case. It is alleged by the Rajasthan Police that Shahbaz Ahmed sent e-mail from a cyber café based in Sahibabad, Ghaziabad between 10th to 13th May just before the blasts in Jaipur. However, following are the results of our verification of the record of phone calls made from his land line phone in his office situated in Molviganjj, Lucknow , during this period. (i) Call made on 10th May at 09973472944, 12:48 hrs. in Bokaro to Mussarat regarding admission to a University in Singapore . There was another call made at 16:28 hrs on same day and then on 12/05/08 at 14:00 hrs and 16:23 hrs. and on 13/05/08 at 16:34 hrs. Mussarat confirmed that he had spoken to Shahbaz Ahmed. (ii) Call made on 12th May at 022 24450617, 12:07 pm to Arbab Travels, Mumbai. It could not be confirmed whether it was actually Shahbaz who had called. (iii) Call made on 13th May at 044 42125454, 19:01 hrs. to Sriram of Singapore Worldwide Students' Placement in Chennai regarding tie-up with this agency. Call made again at this number on same day at 19:17 hrs. Most likely Shahbaz Ahmed talked to Sriram because there was nobody else in his office who could speak about this matter. (iv) Call made on 13th May at 09967141997, 12:08 hrs. to Hasan, a real estate agent. It could not be confirmed whether it was Shahbaz who had made this call STD calls could be made from the phone in Shahbaz's office only after unlocking the code. Hence, most likely all the above calls were made by Shahbaz as it is very unlikely that Sarika or anybody else would have made these calls from his office. Rajasthan Police has alleged that Shahbaz has been identified by the owner of the Cyber Café but this identification after a lapse of five months is doubtful in itself as the café is daily frequented by so many persons. Rajasthan Police has also alleged that a laptop computer was recovered from Shahbaz whereas the fact is that Shahbaz did not possess a laptop. Conclusion: We think that Shahbaz Ahmed is innocent and has been picked up by police merely because he was a one time member of SIMI and his name probably cropped up in interrogation of one of the accused picked up earlier than him. Or may be police got hold of some membership list of SIMI from the years when he was a member. Shahbaz's life has changed after his marriage and it is unlikely that a person would be involved in bomb blasts in May when a child is born to his wife in April by a major operation. He seems to have been mostly busy trying to establish his business to ensure a decent earning to raise his family. The verification of calls made from his land line phone in office proves the presence of Shahbaz Ahmed in Lucknow between 10th and 13th May, 2008 and contradicts the version of Rajasthan police of his presence in Sahibabad during this period. Identification of Shahbaz by the owner of the Cyber café after a lapse of five months is also doubtful. Members of Fact Finding team: (1) S.R. Darapuri,. IPS (Retd) (UP), sdarapuri at yahoo. co.in (2) Sandeep Pandey, Social Activist, ashaashram at yahoo. com (3) S.M. Naseem,. IPS (Retd ) (UP) (4) J.A. Khan IAS (Retd.) (J&K) (5) Mohammed Saif Babar, Advocate (6) Syed Moid Ahmed, Social Activist Report brought out on behalf of People's Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL), UP Chapter, and People's Union for Human Rights (PUHR) From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 22:59:13 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:59:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810210701m1a5ff1e6h5182ea2bebf1a921@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <178033.37345.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30810210701m1a5ff1e6h5182ea2bebf1a921@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810211029i5f4b767ay5af76a55028f68a8@mail.gmail.com> It isn't reservation. Pandits are accommodated over and above the strength of a batch. On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Did I say there's something wrong with that? That's a strawman > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > If minorities of INDIA enjoying spectaculous reservations and benefits > and damaging the country like anything, whats wrong if a single state > provide reservation to pandits?Today Maharashtra,tomorrow every state in > India will do so? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: > > > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > To: "Pawan Durani" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:48 PM > > > > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a > > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. > > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% > > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country > , > > so > > > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > disinformation > > > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being > followed > > > more closely. > > > > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > > > ascertained. > > > > > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind > > > > > > > > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, > > >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder > > >> when they will join the mainstream? > > >> > > >> best > > >> shivam > > >> > > >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> wrote: > > >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> > By M.V. Kamath > > >> > > > >> > Organiser > > >> > > > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary > > >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to > > >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing > > >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from > > the > > >> > Indian mainstream. > > >> > > > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of > > >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim > > >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western > > >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > > >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only > > alienate > > >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > > >> > > > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is > > bad > > >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more > > >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it > > >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the > > medieval > > >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- > > >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. > > But > > >> > then whose fault is it. > > >> > > > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being > > >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support.. > > Past > > >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails > > Muslims > > >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last > > >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of > > seats > > >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population > > were > > >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, > > forfeited > > >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart > > >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly > > win > > >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > > >> > > > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, > > if > > >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have > > got > > >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha > > >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the > > >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims > > won > > >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third > > Lok > > >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have > > >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of > > seats > > >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though > > >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats > > they > > >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. > > >> > > > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number > > of > > >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth > > to > > >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats > > but > > >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > > >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined > > >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims > > got > > >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, > > four > > >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. > > >> > > > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and > > >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of > > >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by > > putting > > >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when > > >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be > > >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and > > allied > > >> > religions. > > >> > > > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that > > hating > > >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad > > >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They > > >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no > > >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth > > to > > >> > win their favour. > > >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of > > Muslims > > >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, > > a > > >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent > > figure > > >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream > > >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party > > >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. > > >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but > > >> > only seven could succeed. > > >> > > > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim > > citizens > > >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving > > people > > >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the > > Shah > > >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an > > ISI-financed > > >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom > > themselves > > >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the > > >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, > > the > > >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves > > that > > >> > you want to stay separate. > > >> > > > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the > > >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > > >> > > > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to > > adhere > > >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not > > >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not > > >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or > > >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they > > >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. > > An > > >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own > > Indian > > >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary > > Muslims > > >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram > > because > > >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to > > Durga. > > >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > > >> > > > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his > > >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic > > >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to > > >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser > > Islamic > > >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > > >> > > > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their > > cue > > >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not > > >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. > > Muslims > > >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy > > and > > >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to > > >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a > > >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > > >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be > > >> > shunned like the very devil. > > >> > > > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs > > to > > >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community.. > > Sareh > > >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. > > >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time > > may > > >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may > > vote > > >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime > > Minister? > > >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > > >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > > >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > > >> > > > >> > 150&page=12 --- > > >> > > > ...................................................................... > > >> > .................................... > > >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > > >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > > >> > Mayank Patel > > >> > > > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong > > >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany > > and > > >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past > > >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action > > >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and > > >> > reconciliation. > > >> > > > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > > >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than > > generous > > >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc.. > > who > > >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have > > >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of > > Indian > > >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection > > tactic > > >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. > > >> > > > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond > > reasonable > > >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single > > agenda > > >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming > > >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that > > election. > > >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring > > >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting > > >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. > > >> > > > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should > > not be > > >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly > > presumes > > >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course > > >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake > > could > > >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, > > >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen > > far > > >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal > > >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > > >> > > > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong > > Indian > > >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would > > not wish > > >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also > > certain > > >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is > > quite > > >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are > > 165 > > >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over > > India"s > > >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not > > >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > > >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. > > On > > >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not > > >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > > >> > > > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial > > >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > > >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies > > who > > >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are > > not > > >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this > > alleged > > >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims > > >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. > > >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > > >> > > > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. > > >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > > >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can > > often > > >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be > > >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian > > >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi > > ve > > >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor > > >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of > > >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide > > allies > > >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > > >> > > > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. > > More-over, > > >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over > > reliance > > >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological > > beef > > >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. > > >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing > > >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing > > >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > > >> > > > >> > Related story: > > >> > > > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ > > >> > > > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > > >> > e2%80%93-history/ > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Oct 21 23:16:24 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:16:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6353c690810211029i5f4b767ay5af76a55028f68a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <178033.37345.qm@web45511.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <9c06aab30810210701m1a5ff1e6h5182ea2bebf1a921@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810211029i5f4b767ay5af76a55028f68a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810211046lc0e6e99s9767cf12de2db69d@mail.gmail.com> So it's reservation without reservation. On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:59 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > It isn't reservation. Pandits are accommodated over and above the strength > of a batch. > > On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Did I say there's something wrong with that? That's a strawman >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, we wi wrote: >> > >> > >> > If minorities of INDIA enjoying spectaculous reservations and benefits >> and damaging the country like anything, whats wrong if a single state >> provide reservation to pandits?Today Maharashtra,tomorrow every state in >> India will do so? >> > >> > Regards, >> > Dhatri. >> > >> > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: >> > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > To: "Pawan Durani" >> > Cc: "sarai list" >> > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:48 PM >> > >> > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a >> > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. >> > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% >> > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani >> > wrote: >> > > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country >> , >> > so >> > > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> disinformation >> > > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being >> followed >> > > more closely. >> > > >> > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> > > ascertained. >> > > >> > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Pawan >> > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >> > > >> > > >> > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> > wrote: >> > >> >> > >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >> > >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >> > >> when they will join the mainstream? >> > >> >> > >> best >> > >> shivam >> > >> >> > >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> wrote: >> > >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > >> > By M.V. Kamath >> > >> > >> > >> > Organiser >> > >> > >> > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >> > >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >> > >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >> > >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from >> > the >> > >> > Indian mainstream. >> > >> > >> > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >> > >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >> > >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >> > >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >> > >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only >> > alienate >> > >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >> > >> > >> > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is >> > bad >> > >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >> > >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >> > >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the >> > medieval >> > >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >> > >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. >> > But >> > >> > then whose fault is it. >> > >> > >> > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >> > >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support.. >> > Past >> > >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails >> > Muslims >> > >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >> > >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of >> > seats >> > >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population >> > were >> > >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, >> > forfeited >> > >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >> > >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly >> > win >> > >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >> > >> > >> > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, >> > if >> > >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have >> > got >> > >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >> > >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >> > >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims >> > won >> > >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third >> > Lok >> > >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >> > >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of >> > seats >> > >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >> > >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats >> > they >> > >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >> > >> > >> > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number >> > of >> > >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth >> > to >> > >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats >> > but >> > >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >> > >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >> > >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims >> > got >> > >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, >> > four >> > >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >> > >> > >> > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >> > >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >> > >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by >> > putting >> > >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >> > >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >> > >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and >> > allied >> > >> > religions. >> > >> > >> > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that >> > hating >> > >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >> > >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >> > >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >> > >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth >> > to >> > >> > win their favour. >> > >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of >> > Muslims >> > >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, >> > a >> > >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent >> > figure >> > >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >> > >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >> > >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >> > >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >> > >> > only seven could succeed. >> > >> > >> > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim >> > citizens >> > >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving >> > people >> > >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the >> > Shah >> > >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an >> > ISI-financed >> > >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom >> > themselves >> > >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >> > >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, >> > the >> > >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves >> > that >> > >> > you want to stay separate. >> > >> > >> > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >> > >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >> > >> > >> > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to >> > adhere >> > >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >> > >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >> > >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >> > >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >> > >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. >> > An >> > >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own >> > Indian >> > >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary >> > Muslims >> > >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram >> > because >> > >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to >> > Durga. >> > >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >> > >> > >> > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >> > >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >> > >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >> > >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser >> > Islamic >> > >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >> > >> > >> > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their >> > cue >> > >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >> > >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. >> > Muslims >> > >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy >> > and >> > >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >> > >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >> > >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >> > >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >> > >> > shunned like the very devil. >> > >> > >> > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs >> > to >> > >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community.. >> > Sareh >> > >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >> > >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time >> > may >> > >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may >> > vote >> > >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime >> > Minister? >> > >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >> > >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >> > >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >> > >> > >> > >> > 150&page=12 --- >> > >> > >> > ...................................................................... >> > >> > .................................... >> > >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >> > >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >> > >> > Mayank Patel >> > >> > >> > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >> > >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany >> > and >> > >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >> > >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >> > >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >> > >> > reconciliation. >> > >> > >> > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >> > >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than >> > generous >> > >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc.. >> > who >> > >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >> > >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of >> > Indian >> > >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection >> > tactic >> > >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >> > >> > >> > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond >> > reasonable >> > >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single >> > agenda >> > >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >> > >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that >> > election. >> > >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >> > >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >> > >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >> > >> > >> > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should >> > not be >> > >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly >> > presumes >> > >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >> > >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake >> > could >> > >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >> > >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen >> > far >> > >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >> > >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >> > >> > >> > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong >> > Indian >> > >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would >> > not wish >> > >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also >> > certain >> > >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is >> > quite >> > >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are >> > 165 >> > >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over >> > India"s >> > >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >> > >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >> > >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. >> > On >> > >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >> > >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >> > >> > >> > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >> > >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >> > >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies >> > who >> > >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are >> > not >> > >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this >> > alleged >> > >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >> > >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >> > >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >> > >> > >> > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >> > >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >> > >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can >> > often >> > >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >> > >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >> > >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi >> > ve >> > >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >> > >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >> > >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide >> > allies >> > >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >> > >> > >> > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. >> > More-over, >> > >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over >> > reliance >> > >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological >> > beef >> > >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >> > >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >> > >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >> > >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >> > >> > >> > >> > Related story: >> > >> > >> > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >> > >> > >> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >> > >> > e2%80%93-history/ >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: >> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From gautam.bhan at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 23:43:34 2008 From: gautam.bhan at gmail.com (gautam bhan) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:13:34 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] a request for contact information Message-ID: dear all, am urgently looking for an email for neera adarkar - bombay based architect and co-author of the book on mill ethnographies. Any one have a clue? thanks, Gautam -- ___________ I write at: www.kafila.org. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 09:33:24 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:33:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anisuzzaman on sculpture "baloney" Message-ID: "Prof Anisuzzaman said people should be enlightened that the very individuals who are smashing the sculptures now in the name of Islam went on killing sprees during the liberation war using the baloney that Islam would not exist if Pakistan ceases to exist." Full article, and image here: Citizens to unite against sculpture removal http://thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=59780 From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 09:34:05 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:04:05 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Arrested at last (The Hindu) Message-ID: <0157ADF1AC8447C0A712AA8CD09E06B4@tara> Arrested at last Raj Thackeray, the estranged nephew of Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray, clearly revels in challenging the limits of the law. For quite some time, under his leadership, the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena has adopted a highly provocative and confrontational approach, unleashing a strategy designed to whip up Marathi regional chauvinist sentiment, thereby reviving a discredited political platform. On Sunday, its target was north Indians who had come to Mumbai to take a Railway Recr uitment Board (RRB) test for graduates seeking appointment as assistant station masters, guards, and reservation clerks. The MNS activists insisted that only Marathis be allowed to take the all-India test and shockingly proceeded to beat up north Indian candidates. The MNS needs no real reason to target those they see as "outsiders" in Maharashtra. The RRB candidates were apparently marked for attack because of a growing perception that an increasing number of Biharis were proving to be successful in such all-India tests. But over the last decade or so, candidates have begun to take tests across railway zones. Also forgotten in the skewed political debate is the fact that the interest in jobs across zones is a result of the new avenues for population migration, and the multiplication of job opportunities in the major centres. Yet logic or reason clearly does not count in the cold calculations of the MNS which has seized upon this issue as another example of its argument that Marathis are losing out in the job market in their own home State. The MNS is evidently looking for new fodder to feed the insecurities of sections of the Marathi community whom they hope to recruit to their parochial political vision. As expected, the arrest of Mr. Thackeray has led to street protests and stone-pelting by the MNS activists in Mumbai. But the State government should not lose its nerve in the important task of insisting that Mr. Thackeray like any other citizen must obey the rule of the law and face the consequences of breaching it. For too long has the State government feared taking action against the MNS leader, anticipating this kind of backlash from the MNS cadres. Mr. Thackeray, who desperately needed to win public attention to further his political career after having quit the Shiv Sena, was thus emboldened to stretch the limits of the law. The State government must make it very plain that it will not tolerate any breach of law. Also, on no account should the opportunistic and parochial politics of the MNS and its leader, Mr. Thackeray be allowed to have any sway in a State where its capital Mumbai is a shining example of the triumph of the cosmopolitan spirit. From indiaonedge at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 20:14:08 2008 From: indiaonedge at gmail.com (indiaonedge wordpress) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:14:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The death of America In-Reply-To: <7b288a440810201047y20767203te2767814e93d060c@mail.gmail.com> References: <7b288a440810201047y20767203te2767814e93d060c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7b288a440810210744w5cd74d45p92dc4971bf5d21ee@mail.gmail.com> The death of America Beneath the many garbled ways in which everyone and their daughter is trying to explain the financial crisis, and with panic spreading at a speed many times that of the spread of euphoria not more than a year ago, there are some fundamental questions that need fundamental answers. What REALLY runs an economy ? What is the future focus for a REAL economy ? For countries like India, the answer is simple. It needs to ramp up its standard of living, base upwards, and concentrate on policies that enable mass growth of fundamental sectors - food (agriculture, processing and distribution), infrastructure (irrigation, roads, railway), education (basic through to advanced), and housing. For developed Europe, it is about pushing the edge on technology and research, to elevate production to the next level of greener, more advanced alternatives. A niche market, versus the mass market of economies like India. It is when we come to America and China that things get complicated. America runs its economy on a system of consumption without value. The mass-produced Ford over Europe's custom-made Ferrari. And the provider of that consumption can no longer in today's globalized world be America herself. America's deadly sin is helping nimble hands in China shove its consumption - systemically built into the American psyche - down its throat, and its capital out of it wallet. America has no Plan B. Yet. It may not take too many bubbles before it completely implodes. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 10:54:17 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:54:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hana Shams on Lalan Statue Controversy Message-ID: All the king's men Hana Shams Ahmed http://thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=59549 "What caste were you when you came to mother earth? And what caste did you 'wear' thereafter? What would be your caste when you depart this world? Think about it. And give me an answer." - From the hymn 'Jaat gelo jaat gelo boley' Attributed to be the work of Fakir Lalon Shah First it was "fugitive" Jamaat-e-Islami Secretary General Ali Ahsan Mohammad Mojahid who went "missing" from the law-enforcers net only to be seen by rest of the country at a high-profile meeting with none other than the chief adviser of the caretaker government. Then, the government worked with amazing speed at the complaint of the bigots and ordered the airport and civil aviation authorities to take down the sculptures of the bauls. 50 lakh takas had already been spent on it. This is the same government, by the way, which has been paying lip service to the cause of the trial of the war criminals. Even after several appeals by the Sector Commanders Forum and other groups to initiate the process of the trial, this government has chosen to look the other way. This is also the same government which has been sitting on the draft policy against sexual harassment, just like all other previous governments, and expressing shyness about taking a decision about it. But given how much resistance and intimidation was faced by the government after implementing the [watered down] National Policy on Advancement of Women, this dilly-dallying does not come as much of a surprise. The latest incident seems to have been incited by none other than the Islami Oikya Jote chairperson Fazlul Huq Amini who "announced" that "all sculptures in the country should be razed to the ground." Amini is the same person who carried out a violent and hate-filled campaign against the Ahmadiyya Muslim community in 2004-05. He is also the person behind the furious protest against the women's policy, proclaiming a fatwa that by announcing the policy, the caretaker government has spoken against the Quran. Amini also said in a press statement that if ever an Islamic party came to power in Bangladesh it would ban Grameen Bank from operating in the country, calling Nobel laureate Yunus, an "enemy of Islam." So the government has basically given in to a demand of a group which is essentially anti-secularism, anti-women's empowerment, and anti-empowerment of the poor! And the giving in to this demand seems to be spreading across the country like a virus. Already a statement signed by 101 leaders of various Islamic groups has demanded that the construction of a sculpture named Bijay Bihanga, or the bird of victory being set up in Barsial marking the liberation of the city from the Pakistani forces in 1971, should be immediately stopped. The work had been 'approved' by religious leaders earlier. At one time Bangladesh was termed as a moderate Muslim country. The majority Muslims could live peacefully with people of other faiths -- the second largest followers of the faith, the Hindus along with Christians, Buddhists and other minorities. Although inter-faith marriages were culturally been frowned upon, religion induced clashes were unheard of. And then the bombs went off at the Pahela Boishakh celebrations in 2001, which proved to be a turning point in changing the country's identity of "moderate Muslim." But how did Amini and many like him get to this position of power? After Ershad's fall in 1991 the Bangladeshi public were only too happy to see BNP and AL either in power or as the opposition in the parliament. After nine years of dictatorship rule, what more could the people ask for? The first blow came when BNP decided that forming a coalition with Jamaat, many of whose leaders are known collaborators of the Pakistan army, would give them the political edge they needed to stay in parliament. The second blow came when Awami League, who boasted of being secular-left in nature, decided it, too, would form a coalition with Khelafat Majlish. That coalition never worked out, but the damage had been done. When the two major political parties have shown their insecurities in front of extremist groups, expecting a caretaker government to take a stand against the hard-liners would be too much to expect. Or would it? The political identity of Bangladesh is changing fast. If the caretaker government does indeed want to root out corruption and restore its identity as a moderate Muslim country, giving in to the demands of the hard-liners must stop immediately. That can only start with the restoring of the baul sculptures to where they belong. From chiarapassa at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 22:15:23 2008 From: chiarapassa at gmail.com (Chiara Passa) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:45:23 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] ARTECH 2008 - 4th International Conference on Digital Arts, Porto. Message-ID: ARTECH 2008 | Nas Fronteiras do Imaginário 4th International Conference on Digital Arts 7, 8 | November Portuguese Catholic University | Porto Artech 2008 is the fourth international workshop held in Portugal and Galicia on the topic of Digital Arts. It aims to promote contacts between Iberian and International contributors concerned with the conception, production and dissemination of Digital and Electronic Art. Artech 2008 brings the scientific, technological and artistic community together, promoting the interest in the digital culture and its intersection with art and technology as an important research field, a common space for discussion, an exchange of experiences, a forum for emerging digital artists and a way of understanding and appreciating new forms of cultural expression. ARTECH 2008 is also Co-located with the Events: Olhares de Outono 2008 New Trends in Digital Arts Festival, 3-8 Nov. 2008 Digital GAMES 2008 Conference on Digital Games, 6, 7 Nov. 2008 http://www.artes.ucp.pt/artech2008/ Main Topics: Main areas are related with sound, image, video, music, multimedia and other new media related topics, in the context of emerging practice of artistic creation. Although non exclusive, the main topics of the conference are: * Art and Science * Audio-Visual and Multimedia Design * Creativity Theory * Electronic Music * Generative and Algorithmic Art * Interactive Systems for Artistic Applications * Media Art history * Mobile Multimedia * Net Art and Digital Culture * New Experiences with New Media and New Applications * Tangible and Gesture Interfaces * Technology in Art Education * Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ARTECH 2008 INSTALLATIONS PROGRAM - http://www.artes.ucp.pt/artech2008/installations.html Friday, 7 November 2008 Installation Session #1 - 9:30 - 20:30 Sala de coro (floor -1) Instalación Interactiva "JCC, Brain Research II" Agueda Simó Sustainabillity & Extinction Bello Benischauer Speaking at the Wall Chiara Passa Pink Music on FF Sale Ciustódio Ricardino e Vitor Lago Silva VideoSpace: a 3D Video Experience Telmo Rocha e Teresa Chambel Blood Landscapes Richard O'Sullivan Bar (floor -1) Composição VIII Paulo Cezar Barbosa Mello Rádio room (floor -2) Fonema Visual Rui Figueiras, Marta Duarte e Miguel Cunha --------------------------------------- Saturday, 8 November 2008 Installation Session #2 - 9:30 - 20:30 Sala de coro (floor -1) Instalación Interactiva "JCC, Brain Research II" Agueda Simó Sustainabillity & Extinction Bello Benischauer Speaking at the Wall Chiara Passa Pink Music on FF Sale Ciustódio Ricardino e Vitor Lago Silva VideoSpace: a 3D Video Experience Telmo Rocha e Teresa Chambel Blood Landscapes Richard O'Sullivan Bar (floor -1) Composição VIII Paulo Cezar Barbosa Mello Rádio room (floor -2) Trame Ivano Morrone -- Chiara Passa chiarapassa at gmail.com http://www.chiarapassa.it http://www.ideasonair.net http://twitter.com/jogador Skype: ideasonair _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Wed Oct 22 11:44:38 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:44:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Publications on traditional dwellings and interior design Message-ID: <48FEC4CE.6050406@sarai.net> Fwd:====================================== Subject: Publications on traditional dwellings and interior design From: "Kamalika Bose" ========================================== Hello and Greetings! It gives me great pleasure to announce the publication of the following two works by the School of Interior Design, CEPT University, Ahmedabad. Please find attached a short summary of the same for your information. Book 1: Title: Seeking the Lost Layers- an Inquiry into the Traditional Dwellings of the Urban Elite in North Calcutta Author: Kamalika Bose with Foreword by George Michell ISBN No: 81-904096-7-0 Hardbound, 181 pages with illustrations and drawings Price: 1. Within India: Rs 1500 + Rs 250 (postage) 2. Outside India: $40 + $25 (postage)- {or its equivalent in Rupees or Euro} Book 2: Title: A History of Interior Design in India, Volume 1: Ahmedabad Authors: Muktirajsinhji Chauhan & Kamalika Bose ISBN No: 81-904096-0-3 Hardbound, 279 pages with illustrations and drawings Price: 1. Within India: Rs 3000 + Rs 250 (postage) 2. Outside India: $80 + $25 (postage)- {or its equivalent in Rupees or Euro} Upon order, the method of payment would be either by Cheque/Demand Draft to 'SID Research Cell' payable at Ahmedabad. Thanks and best regards, Kamalika ____________________________ Lecturer School of Interior Design Faculty of Design, CEPT University Kasturbhai Lalbhai Campus, University Road, Navrangpura Ahmedabad 380 009. T: +91 (79) 2630 2470, 2630 2740 (Extn.181), 2630 6652 F: +91 (79) 2630 2075 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 14:59:39 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:59:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> Shivam, You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is Kashmiri Pandits.You are also well known for your habit of loving to hate Kashmiri Pandits. Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists. I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations in any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra. If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential as a journalist. The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am based in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab India and have few admirers in this EXPRESS. Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ? You misleader Pawan On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , > so > > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > disinformation > > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed > > more closely. > > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > > ascertained. > > > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. > > > > > > > > Pawan > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind > > > > > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> > >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, > >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder > >> when they will join the mainstream? > >> > >> best > >> shivam > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > >> > By M.V. Kamath > >> > > >> > Organiser > >> > > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary > >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to > >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing > >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the > >> > Indian mainstream. > >> > > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of > >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim > >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western > >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate > >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > >> > > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad > >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more > >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it > >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval > >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- > >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But > >> > then whose fault is it. > >> > > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being > >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past > >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims > >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last > >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats > >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were > >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited > >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart > >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win > >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > >> > > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if > >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got > >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha > >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the > >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won > >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok > >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have > >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats > >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though > >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they > >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. > >> > > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of > >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to > >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but > >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined > >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got > >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four > >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. > >> > > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and > >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of > >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting > >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when > >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be > >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied > >> > religions. > >> > > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating > >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad > >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They > >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no > >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to > >> > win their favour. > >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims > >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a > >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure > >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream > >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party > >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. > >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but > >> > only seven could succeed. > >> > > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens > >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people > >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah > >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed > >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves > >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the > >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the > >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that > >> > you want to stay separate. > >> > > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the > >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > >> > > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere > >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not > >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not > >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or > >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they > >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An > >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian > >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims > >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because > >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. > >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > >> > > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his > >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic > >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to > >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic > >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > >> > > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue > >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not > >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims > >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and > >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to > >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a > >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be > >> > shunned like the very devil. > >> > > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to > >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh > >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. > >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may > >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote > >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? > >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > >> > > >> > 150&page=12 --- > >> > ..................................................................... > >> > .................................... > >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > >> > Mayank Patel > >> > > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong > >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and > >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past > >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action > >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and > >> > reconciliation. > >> > > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous > >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who > >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have > >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian > >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic > >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. > >> > > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable > >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda > >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming > >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. > >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring > >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting > >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. > >> > > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be > >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes > >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course > >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could > >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, > >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far > >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal > >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > >> > > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian > >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish > >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain > >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite > >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 > >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s > >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not > >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On > >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not > >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > >> > > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial > >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who > >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not > >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged > >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims > >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. > >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > >> > > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. > >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often > >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be > >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian > >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve > >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor > >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of > >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies > >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > >> > > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, > >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance > >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef > >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. > >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing > >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing > >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > >> > > >> > Related story: > >> > > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ > >> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > >> > e2%80%93-history/ > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Wed Oct 22 15:44:04 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:44:04 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 115, two wrongs do not make one right. Message-ID: <538039.75678.qm@web94914.mail.in2.yahoo.com> After going thru the posts in the last last few digests, one gets a feeling that wrongs can go on happening to correct the wrongs of previous past.? In democratic life, we have "intellectuals" who have ready reasons for the intellect to interpret the happenings in the democratic life, many claims for being intellectuals, may be a bookers prize, ( nobody would question the lobbying that went for the prize by the publishers of that book.) and these intellectuals have ready expletives like moron, looney and idiot for all of us who are not yet labelled as intellectuals. !     Be that may be, we have a system to govern the democratic life, and we have intellectuals to find fault in the system and blame the system, none of the intellectuals seem to have any answers as to how to correct the system.?    In democratic life, dissent is essence of democracy, if every one is agreeable for everything in society, then it becomes autocracy of few with dictatorial diction. But when in any debate, healthy discussion is exchange of thoughts, with or without diseent in the thoughts, so that better thoughts prevail and society gets the benefit of such thoughts from different minds., intellects.   Few days back, a post from britta talked about camps in Gujarath, the miserable conditions of the camps, hygiene of the inmates of the camps etc. Then again, we are confused lot when it comes to "minority" and "maority", secular and communal, leftist thoughts and rightist thoughts. Me being looney moron have issues that bother me, is what about many of us morons who are plain and simple humans having a try at decent dignified life with hard work and decent effort to earn our daily bread.without aspiring for any rewards and awards or fellowships. ?   As britta writes about the camp, my concern is for that camp also, in the capital of the nation, existing for last sixty   years right from 1948 of the displaced "minority" from Jammu and Kashmir state.If any of you have visited these camps, in worst conditions, which have given to the world  brilliant individuals, one of whom  is now heading  a fund of $ 700 billions to salvage the richest nation.!      My mind also wanders to those camps in karnataka where refugees of another nation, were settled on 35,000 hectares of land, totally inhabitable at the time of initiation of the camps, for nearly half a million people of Tibet, in Bylakuppe and Mundagod.These refugess mixed well within society as milk and sugar, no issues as refugees and they are today not only self sufficient but contribute to national economy.      Then there are camps in Karnataka and Tamilnadu, where refugess from Srilanka came in thousands, being tamils was the only qualification, but today are in all  anti-social activities after being settled in this nation.! Ofcourse there is another type of camp, the refugees from bangladesh, who have now settled down with id cards, driving license and even passports as vote banks for the politics, in Assam, Tripura and west Bengal., who have feeder lines for terror.!  The policy of camps and the communes of vote banks is not new to the nation by the politics of vote bank ploitics. As early as in 1956, duly democratically elected governance of kerala was dismissed under art.356 because "law and  order" was bad as per the report of the state governor. it is different matter that the cabinet minister for Home, those days was instrumental in getting the situation of law and order to go for a toss with foreign funds is another matter.And the governance was for the first time in free india by communist party of India.     Then came the Punjab elections, gai bachda was thrown out of power, with sycophancy ruling the roost, the result was obivious, art.356 for dismissing duly, democratically elected Akalidal, and in addition, a monster was created to control the akalidal, from within the community. A bhindranwale was born to become a frankenstein later.    Sri Lanka is a soverein nation , our neighbour, tamils went there as search for better life took them not only to this nation but many other nations, many became citizens of those nations where they got settled.. Why should India interfere in another nation;s internal matter militarily is an unanswered question for the nation.       The ussue of terror took the horizon with large cloudes on nationhood of different nations. when 9/11 happened in America, entire nation and its media became one voice to act against the terror. But in India, it is a different matter altogether, as we seek to label the terror as islam terror, hindu terror and christian terror. When do we agree that terror is is terror, crime is a crime and it is used to subvert the process of democratic rule of the nation.?      As we morons talk of the wrongs, labels follow, if we talk of wrongs of imposition of art 356 , we are leftists if it is about Kerala or west Bengal, if we talk of hindu and issues related, then we are communal, if we talk of atrocities by nuns and priests who are paid for conversion of poor tribals  we are very rabid communal.!If we talk about the displacement of poor peasents and farmers by forcible eviction then we are against development.!       Nation has seen growth but not inclusive growth, as rightly said by some one socialism distributes poverty equally, capitalism allows rich few to become richer. As we forget the nation and our duty to constitution of the nation, with our intellect going intellectual, the safety being provided by our soldiers sacrificing their youth, family  and even their life, we have intellectuals advocating the secession of apart of the nation, who do notvalue the freedom but their comfortable stay with separatists. some post the r= ight thoughts of varnas in hindu way of life, very next post is about looney communal barbs. ? Is it because the effort is still on emphasis for creating vote banks based on caste, faith and region. Yes, otherwise how one can justify the notice to karnataka and orissa under art.355 for law and order situation and no notices to maharastra for the goon acts of their sponsored monster on rampage. ? If lalu yadav can be minister of railways for Bihar who will take care of the nation of its railways. ? Home minister being mumbaikar has soft corner for mumbai for the votes of linguistic commune of maratis.? Defence minister is more bothered about malayali votes but least bothered about the hijacked indians on a ship near Somalia as they are all hindi speaking. ?     we have a system of governance that feeds on "commune " votes of faith, linguistic, regioanl and caste vote communes. , and we are democracy with only 45 percent voting for the polls, hence the commune votes count if they are even 2 per cent, that is winning margin.?    ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, 21 October, 2008 11:16:31 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 115 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. Re: When will Muslims join the mainstream? (Aditya Raj Kaul)   2. Re: When will Muslims join the mainstream?       ( Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:59:13 +0530 From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? To: "sarai list" Message-ID:     <6353c690810211029i5f4b767ay5af76a55028f68a8 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It isn't reservation. Pandits are accommodated over and above the strength of a batch. On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Did I say there's something wrong with that? That's a strawman > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > > If minorities of INDIA enjoying spectaculous reservations and benefits > and damaging the country like anything, whats wrong if a single state > provide reservation to pandits?Today Maharashtra,tomorrow every state in > India will do so? > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: > > > > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > To: "Pawan Durani" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:48 PM > > > > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a > > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. > > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% > > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? > > > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country > , > > so > > > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a > disinformation > > > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being > followed > > > more closely. > > > > > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links > > > ascertained. > > > > > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind > > > > > > > > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, > > >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder > > >> when they will join the mainstream? > > >> > > >> best > > >> shivam > > >> > > >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> wrote: > > >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > >> > By M.V. Kamath > > >> > > > >> > Organiser > > >> > > > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary > > >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to > > >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing > > >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from > > the > > >> > Indian mainstream. > > >> > > > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of > > >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim > > >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western > > >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim > > >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only > > alienate > > >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. > > >> > > > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is > > bad > > >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more > > >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it > > >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the > > medieval > > >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- > > >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. > > But > > >> > then whose fault is it. > > >> > > > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being > > >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support.. > > Past > > >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails > > Muslims > > >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last > > >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of > > seats > > >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population > > were > > >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, > > forfeited > > >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart > > >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly > > win > > >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? > > >> > > > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, > > if > > >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have > > got > > >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha > > >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the > > >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims > > won > > >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third > > Lok > > >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have > > >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of > > seats > > >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though > > >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats > > they > > >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. > > >> > > > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number > > of > > >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth > > to > > >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats > > but > > >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The > > >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined > > >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims > > got > > >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, > > four > > >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. > > >> > > > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and > > >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of > > >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by > > putting > > >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when > > >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be > > >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and > > allied > > >> > religions. > > >> > > > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that > > hating > > >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad > > >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They > > >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no > > >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth > > to > > >> > win their favour. > > >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of > > Muslims > > >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, > > a > > >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent > > figure > > >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream > > >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party > > >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. > > >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but > > >> > only seven could succeed. > > >> > > > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim > > citizens > > >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving > > people > > >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the > > Shah > > >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an > > ISI-financed > > >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom > > themselves > > >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the > > >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, > > the > > >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves > > that > > >> > you want to stay separate. > > >> > > > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the > > >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. > > >> > > > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to > > adhere > > >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not > > >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not > > >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or > > >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they > > >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. > > An > > >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own > > Indian > > >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary > > Muslims > > >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram > > because > > >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to > > Durga. > > >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! > > >> > > > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his > > >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic > > >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to > > >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser > > Islamic > > >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. > > >> > > > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their > > cue > > >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not > > >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. > > Muslims > > >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy > > and > > >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to > > >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a > > >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, > > >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be > > >> > shunned like the very devil. > > >> > > > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs > > to > > >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community.. > > Sareh > > >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. > > >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time > > may > > >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may > > vote > > >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime > > Minister? > > >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? > > >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? > > >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= > > >> > > > >> > 150&page=12 --- > > >> > > > ....................................................................... > > >> > ..................................... > > >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm > > >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past > > >> > Mayank Patel > > >> > > > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong > > >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany > > and > > >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past > > >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action > > >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and > > >> > reconciliation. > > >> > > > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, > > >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than > > generous > > >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc.. > > who > > >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have > > >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of > > Indian > > >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection > > tactic > > >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. > > >> > > > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond > > reasonable > > >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single > > agenda > > >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming > > >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that > > election. > > >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring > > >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting > > >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. > > >> > > > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should > > not be > > >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly=0A> > presumes > > >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course > > >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake > > could > > >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, > > >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen > > far > > >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal > > >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. > > >> > > > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong > > Indian > > >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would > > not wish > > >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also > > certain > > >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is > > quite > > >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are > > 165 > > >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over > > India"s > > >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not > > >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and > > >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. > > On > > >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not > > >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. > > >> > > > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial > > >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence > > >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies > > who > > >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are > > not > > >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this > > alleged > > >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims > > >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. > > >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. > > >> > > > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. > > >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. > > >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can > > often > > >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be > > >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian > > >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi > > ve > > >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor > > >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of > > >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide > > allies > > >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. > > >> > > > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. > > More-over, > > >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over > > reliance > > >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological > > beef > > >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. > > >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing > > >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing > > >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. > > >> > > > >> > Related story: > > >> > > > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ > > >> > > > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% > > >> > e2%80%93-history/ > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:16:24 +0530 From: " Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् "    Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: sarai list Message-ID:     <9c06aab30810211046lc0e6e99s9767cf12de2db69d at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" So it's reservation without reservation. On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:59 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > It isn't reservation. Pandits are accommodated over and above the strength > of a batch. > > On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Did I say there's something wrong with that? That's a strawman >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, we wi wrote: >> > >> > >> > If minorities of INDIA enjoying spectaculous reservations and benefits >> and damaging the country like anything, whats wrong if a single state >> provide reservation to pandits?Today Maharashtra,tomorrow every state in >> India will do so? >> > >> > Regards, >> > Dhatri. >> > >> > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: >> > >> > From: Shivam Vij शिवम् >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > To: "Pawan Durani" >> > Cc: "sarai list" >> > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 6:48 PM >> > >> > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a >> > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. >> > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% >> > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani >> > wrote: >> > > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country >> , >> > so >> > > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> disinformation >> > > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being >> followed >> > > more closely. >> > > >> > > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> > > ascertained. >> > > >> > > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Pawan >> > > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >> > > >> > > >> > > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् >> > wrote: >> > >> >> > >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >> > >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >> > >> when they will join the mainstream? >> > >> >> > >> best >> > >> shivam >> > >> >> > >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> wrote: >> > >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> > >> > By M.V. Kamath >> > >> > >> > >> > Organiser >> > >> > >> > >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >> > >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >> > >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >> > >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from >> > the >> > >> > Indian mainstream. >> > >> > >> > >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >> > >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >> > >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >> > >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >> > >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only >> > alienate >> > >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >> > >> > >> > >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is >> > bad >> > >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >> > >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >> > >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the >> > medieval >> > >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >> > >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. >> > But >> > >> > then whose fault is it. >> > >> > >> > >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >> > >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support.. >> > Past >> > >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails >> > Muslims >> > >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >> > >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of >> > seats >> > >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population >> > were >> > >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, >> > forfeited >> > >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >> > >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly >> > win >> > >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >> > >> > >> > >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, >> > if >> > >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have >> > got >> > >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >> > >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >> > >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims >> > won >> > >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third >> > Lok >> > >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >> > >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of >> > seats >> > >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >> > >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats >> > they >> > >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >> > >> > >> > >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number >> > of >> > >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth >> > to >> > >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats >> > but >> > >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >> > >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >> > >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims >> > got >> > >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, >> > four >> > >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >> > >> > >> > >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >> > >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >> > >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by >> > putting >> > >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >> > >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >> > >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and >> > allied >> > >> > religions. >> > >> > >> > >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that >> > hating >> > >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >> > >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >> > >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >> > >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth >> > to >> > >> > win their favour. >> > >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of >> > Muslims >> > >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, >> > a >> > >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent >> > figure >> > >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >> > >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >> > >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >> > >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >> > >> > only seven could succeed. >> > >> > >> > >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim >> > citizens >> > >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving >> > people >> > >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the >> > Shah >> > >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an >> > ISI-financed >> > >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom >> > themselves >> > >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >> > >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, >> > the >> > >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves >> > that >> > >> > you want to stay separate. >> > >> > >> > >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >> > >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >> > >> > >> > >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to >> > adhere >> > >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >> > >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >> > >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >> > >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >> > >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. >> > An >> > >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own >> > Indian >> > >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary >> > Muslims >> > >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram >> > because >> > >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to >> > Durga. >> > >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >> > >> > >> > >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >> > >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >> > >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >> > >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser >> > Islamic >> > >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >> > >> > >> > >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their >> > cue >> > >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >> > >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. >> > Muslims >> > >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy >> > and >> > >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >> > >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >> > >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >> > >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >> > >> > shunned like the very devil. >> > >> > >> > >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs >> > to >> > >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community.. >> > Sareh >> > >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >> > >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time >> > may >> > >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may >> > vote >> > >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime >> > Minister? >> > >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >> > >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >> > >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >> > >> > >> > >> > 150&page=12 --- >> > >> > >> > ....................................................................... >> > >> > .................................... >> > >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >> > >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >> > >> > Mayank Patel >> > >> > >> > >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >> > >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany >> > and >> > >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >> > >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >> > >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >> > >> > reconciliation. >> > >> > >> > >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >> > >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than >> > generous >> > >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc.. >> > who >> > >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >> > >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of >> > Indian >> > >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection >> > tactic >> > >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >> > >> > >> > >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond >> > reasonable >> > >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single >> > agenda >> > >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >> > >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that >> > election. >> > >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >> > >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >> > >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >> > >> > >> > >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should >> > not be >> > >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly >> > presumes >> > >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >> > >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake >> > could >> > >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >> > >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen >> > far >> > >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >> > >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >> > >> > >> > >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong >> > Indian >> > >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would >> > not wish >> > >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also >> > certain >> > >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is >> > quite >> > >> > understandable if not agreeable.. After all, Indian Muslims are >> > 165 >> > >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over >> > India"s >> > >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >> > >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >> > >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. >> > On >> > >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >> > >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >> > >> > >> > >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >> > >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >> > >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies >> > who >> > >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are >> > not >> > >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this >> > alleged >> > >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >> > >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >> > >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >> > >> > >> > >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >> > >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >> > >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can >> > often >> > >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >> > >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >> > >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi >> > ve >> > >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >> > >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >> > >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide >> > allies >> > >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >> > >> > >> > >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. >> > More-over, >> > >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over >> > reliance >> > >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological >> > beef >> > >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >> > >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >> > >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >> > >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >> > >> > >> > >> > Related story: >> > >> > >> > >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >> > >> > >> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >> > >> > e2%80%93-history/ >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> > List archive: >> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: >> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 115 ******************************************** Connect with friends all over the world. Get Yahoo! India Messenger at http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/?wm=n/ From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 16:21:30 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:21:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reservation on the moon Message-ID: <73eb60090810220351w300d6fbax882c257b1486f6bd@mail.gmail.com> Manmohan Singh said to George Bush - "We are sending Indians to the moon next year". Bush - "Wow! How Many?" Manmohan Singh - "about 100 - and in the following order: 25 - OBC 25 - SC 20 - ST 5 - Handicapped 5 - Sports Persons 5 - Terrorist Affected 5 - Kashmiri Migrants 9 - Politicians and if possible 1 - Astronaut From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 16:30:54 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:30:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reservation on the moon In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810220351w300d6fbax882c257b1486f6bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810220351w300d6fbax882c257b1486f6bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810220400r60cd6539u2d72e188c397a1bb@mail.gmail.com> Where did Mr. Bush accommodate Mr. Kirdar Singh ? On 10/22/08, kirdar singh wrote: Manmohan Singh said to George Bush - "We are sending Indians to the > moon next year". > > Bush - "Wow! How Many?" > > Manmohan Singh - "about 100 - and in the following order: > > 25 - OBC > > 25 - SC > > 20 - ST > > 5 - Handicapped > > 5 - Sports Persons > > 5 - Terrorist Affected > > 5 - Kashmiri Migrants > > 9 - Politicians > > and if possible > > 1 - Astronaut > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 16:49:41 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:49:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reservation on the moon In-Reply-To: <6353c690810220400r60cd6539u2d72e188c397a1bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810220351w300d6fbax882c257b1486f6bd@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810220400r60cd6539u2d72e188c397a1bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090810220419y77882f44k3b202e37f9abf7c1@mail.gmail.com> He is the astronaut.... On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Where did Mr. Bush accommodate Mr. Kirdar Singh ? > > On 10/22/08, kirdar singh wrote: > > > Manmohan Singh said to George Bush - "We are sending Indians to the >> moon next year". >> >> Bush - "Wow! How Many?" >> >> Manmohan Singh - "about 100 - and in the following order: >> >> 25 - OBC >> >> 25 - SC >> >> 20 - ST >> >> 5 - Handicapped >> >> 5 - Sports Persons >> >> 5 - Terrorist Affected >> >> 5 - Kashmiri Migrants >> >> 9 - Politicians >> >> and if possible >> >> 1 - Astronaut >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 21:00:10 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Tara Prakash) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:30:10 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com><9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com><6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6AF0D3C89ED04DB292B7ED30985D3084@YOUR80SYHULQ3W> Maharashtra comes before the nation. It has been the culture of right wing, first me, then my family ... then the rest. If they are left, that is. Was BJP ever a nationalist party? Never. Neither were the remaining political cousins. they have been selling this crap to the people of this country. And some of us have been buying it. Let us not exclude the kkashmiri separratists from the list of these cousins, they have been using the same rhetoric. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: >> Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , >> so >> called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> disinformation >> campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed >> more closely. >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> ascertained. >> >> Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >> >> >> >> Pawan >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >> >> >> On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>> >>> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >>> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >>> when they will join the mainstream? >>> >>> best >>> shivam >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> wrote: >>> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> > By M.V. Kamath >>> > >>> > Organiser >>> > >>> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >>> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >>> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >>> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >>> > Indian mainstream. >>> > >>> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >>> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >>> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >>> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >>> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >>> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >>> > >>> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >>> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >>> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >>> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >>> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >>> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >>> > then whose fault is it. >>> > >>> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >>> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >>> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >>> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >>> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >>> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >>> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >>> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >>> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >>> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >>> > >>> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >>> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >>> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >>> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >>> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >>> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >>> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >>> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >>> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >>> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >>> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >>> > >>> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >>> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >>> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >>> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >>> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >>> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >>> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >>> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >>> > >>> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >>> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >>> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >>> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >>> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >>> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >>> > religions. >>> > >>> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >>> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >>> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >>> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >>> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >>> > win their favour. >>> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >>> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >>> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >>> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >>> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >>> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >>> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >>> > only seven could succeed. >>> > >>> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >>> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >>> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >>> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >>> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >>> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >>> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >>> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >>> > you want to stay separate. >>> > >>> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >>> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >>> > >>> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >>> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >>> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >>> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >>> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >>> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >>> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >>> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >>> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >>> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >>> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >>> > >>> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >>> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >>> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >>> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >>> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >>> > >>> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >>> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >>> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >>> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >>> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >>> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >>> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >>> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >>> > shunned like the very devil. >>> > >>> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >>> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >>> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >>> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >>> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >>> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >>> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >>> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >>> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >>> > >>> > 150&page=12 --- >>> > ..................................................................... >>> > .................................... >>> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >>> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >>> > Mayank Patel >>> > >>> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >>> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >>> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >>> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >>> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >>> > reconciliation. >>> > >>> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >>> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >>> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >>> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >>> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >>> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >>> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >>> > >>> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >>> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >>> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >>> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >>> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >>> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >>> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >>> > >>> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >>> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >>> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >>> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >>> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >>> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >>> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >>> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >>> > >>> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >>> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >>> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >>> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >>> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >>> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >>> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >>> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >>> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >>> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >>> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >>> > >>> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >>> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >>> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >>> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >>> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >>> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >>> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >>> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >>> > >>> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >>> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >>> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >>> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >>> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >>> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >>> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >>> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >>> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >>> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >>> > >>> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >>> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >>> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >>> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >>> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >>> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >>> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >>> > >>> > Related story: >>> > >>> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >>> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >>> > e2%80%93-history/ >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 21:45:45 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (Tara Prakash) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:15:45 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com><9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com><6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8707ABB80AE543E085AC214A3E830C71@YOUR80SYHULQ3W> Maharashtra comes before the nation. It has been the culture of right wing, first me, then my family ... then the rest. If they are left, that is. Was BJP ever a nationalist party? Never. Neither were the remaining political cousins. they have been selling this crap to the people of this country. And some of us have been buying it. Let us not exclude the kkashmiri separratists from the list of these cousins, they have been using the same rhetoric. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a > particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. > Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% > reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? > > On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: >> Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , >> so >> called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> disinformation >> campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed >> more closely. >> >> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> ascertained. >> >> Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >> >> >> >> Pawan >> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >> >> >> On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>> >>> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >>> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >>> when they will join the mainstream? >>> >>> best >>> shivam >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> wrote: >>> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> > By M.V. Kamath >>> > >>> > Organiser >>> > >>> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >>> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >>> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >>> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >>> > Indian mainstream. >>> > >>> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >>> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >>> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >>> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >>> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >>> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >>> > >>> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >>> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >>> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >>> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >>> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >>> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >>> > then whose fault is it. >>> > >>> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >>> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >>> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >>> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >>> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >>> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >>> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >>> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >>> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >>> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >>> > >>> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >>> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >>> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >>> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >>> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >>> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >>> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >>> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >>> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >>> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >>> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >>> > >>> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >>> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >>> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >>> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >>> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >>> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >>> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >>> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >>> > >>> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >>> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >>> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >>> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >>> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >>> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >>> > religions. >>> > >>> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >>> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >>> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >>> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >>> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >>> > win their favour. >>> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >>> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >>> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >>> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >>> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >>> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >>> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >>> > only seven could succeed. >>> > >>> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >>> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >>> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >>> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >>> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >>> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >>> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >>> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >>> > you want to stay separate. >>> > >>> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >>> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >>> > >>> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >>> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >>> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >>> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >>> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >>> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >>> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >>> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >>> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >>> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >>> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >>> > >>> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >>> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >>> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >>> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >>> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >>> > >>> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >>> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >>> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >>> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >>> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >>> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >>> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >>> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >>> > shunned like the very devil. >>> > >>> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >>> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >>> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >>> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >>> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >>> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >>> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >>> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >>> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >>> > >>> > 150&page=12 --- >>> > ..................................................................... >>> > .................................... >>> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >>> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >>> > Mayank Patel >>> > >>> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >>> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >>> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >>> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >>> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >>> > reconciliation. >>> > >>> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >>> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >>> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >>> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >>> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >>> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >>> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >>> > >>> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >>> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >>> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >>> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >>> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >>> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >>> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >>> > >>> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >>> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >>> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >>> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >>> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >>> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >>> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >>> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >>> > >>> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >>> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >>> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >>> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >>> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >>> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >>> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >>> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >>> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >>> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >>> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >>> > >>> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >>> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >>> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >>> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >>> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >>> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >>> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >>> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >>> > >>> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >>> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >>> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >>> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >>> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >>> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >>> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >>> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >>> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >>> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >>> > >>> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >>> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >>> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >>> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >>> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >>> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >>> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >>> > >>> > Related story: >>> > >>> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >>> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >>> > e2%80%93-history/ >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 22 17:51:39 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:51:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> Pawan sahab, I prostrate before thee. Forgive me! forgive me! forgive me! Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea, I assure you I am not trying to coerce you into converting by asking for forgiveness. Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Vande Matram! Vande Matram! Vande Matram! Ek dhakka aur do! (Marching straight to an RSS camp.) On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shivam, > > You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular > direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which > generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates > hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is > Kashmiri Pandits.You are also well known for your habit of loving to hate > Kashmiri Pandits. > > Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and > you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists. > > I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations in > any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra. > > If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being > misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential as > a journalist. > > The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am based > in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab India > and have few admirers in this EXPRESS. > > Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ? > > You misleader > > Pawan > > > > > On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a >> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. >> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% >> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? >> >> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , >> so >> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> disinformation >> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being >> followed >> > more closely. >> > >> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> > ascertained. >> > >> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >> > >> > >> > >> > Pawan >> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >> > >> > >> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >> >> when they will join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> > By M.V. Kamath >> >> > >> >> > Organiser >> >> > >> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >> >> > Indian mainstream. >> >> > >> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >> >> > >> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >> >> > then whose fault is it. >> >> > >> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >> >> > >> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >> >> > >> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >> >> > >> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >> >> > religions. >> >> > >> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >> >> > win their favour. >> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >> >> > only seven could succeed. >> >> > >> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >> >> > you want to stay separate. >> >> > >> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >> >> > >> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >> >> > >> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >> >> > >> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >> >> > shunned like the very devil. >> >> > >> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >> >> > >> >> > 150&page=12 --- >> >> > ..................................................................... >> >> > .................................... >> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >> >> > Mayank Patel >> >> > >> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >> >> > reconciliation. >> >> > >> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >> >> > >> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >> >> > >> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >> >> > >> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >> >> > >> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >> >> > >> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >> >> > >> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >> >> > >> >> > Related story: >> >> > >> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >> >> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >> >> > e2%80%93-history/ >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> > > -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 17:52:32 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:52:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reservation on the moon Message-ID: <98f331e00810220522t4ef8385cr9883b0f6394b7f35@mail.gmail.com> Mr Kirdar Singh, If u really understand the meaning of ur name and have that in u, please stop posting such pervert jokes. sincerly urs Prakash From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 17:54:56 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:54:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810220524p72246ee2x9b67e9195f936d59@mail.gmail.com> Shivam, I am not asking you to ask for forgiveness. I am just asking you to clarify whether your details about 5% reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra or any state is true. If it is , pls prove. If not , pls share why do you spread such lies. As a journalist you should not be doing that , unless you work for someone who has a a motive. Pawan DUrani On 10/22/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Pawan sahab, I prostrate before thee. Forgive me! forgive me! forgive me! > Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea, I assure you I am > not trying to coerce you into converting by asking for forgiveness. > > Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Vande Matram! Vande > Matram! Vande Matram! Ek dhakka aur do! (Marching straight to an RSS camp.) > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Shivam, >> >> You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular >> direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which >> generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates >> hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is >> Kashmiri Pandits.You are also well known for your habit of loving to hate >> Kashmiri Pandits. >> >> Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and >> you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists. >> >> I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations in >> any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra. >> >> If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being >> misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential as >> a journalist. >> >> The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am based >> in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab India >> and have few admirers in this EXPRESS. >> >> Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ? >> >> You misleader >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>> >>> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a >>> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. >>> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% >>> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani >>> wrote: >>> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country >>> , so >>> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>> disinformation >>> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being >>> followed >>> > more closely. >>> > >>> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >>> > ascertained. >>> > >>> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Pawan >>> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >>> > >>> > >>> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >>> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >>> >> when they will join the mainstream? >>> >> >>> >> best >>> >> shivam >>> >> >>> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>> >> > By M.V. Kamath >>> >> > >>> >> > Organiser >>> >> > >>> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >>> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >>> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >>> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >>> >> > Indian mainstream. >>> >> > >>> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >>> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >>> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >>> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >>> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >>> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >>> >> > >>> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >>> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >>> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >>> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >>> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >>> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >>> >> > then whose fault is it. >>> >> > >>> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >>> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >>> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >>> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >>> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >>> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >>> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >>> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >>> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >>> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >>> >> > >>> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >>> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >>> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >>> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >>> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >>> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >>> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >>> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >>> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >>> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >>> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >>> >> > >>> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >>> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >>> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >>> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >>> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >>> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >>> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >>> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >>> >> > >>> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >>> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >>> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >>> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >>> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >>> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >>> >> > religions. >>> >> > >>> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >>> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >>> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >>> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >>> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >>> >> > win their favour. >>> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >>> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >>> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >>> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >>> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >>> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >>> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >>> >> > only seven could succeed. >>> >> > >>> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >>> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >>> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >>> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >>> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >>> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >>> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >>> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >>> >> > you want to stay separate. >>> >> > >>> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >>> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >>> >> > >>> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >>> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >>> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >>> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >>> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >>> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >>> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >>> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >>> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >>> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >>> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >>> >> > >>> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >>> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >>> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >>> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >>> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >>> >> > >>> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >>> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >>> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >>> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >>> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >>> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >>> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >>> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >>> >> > shunned like the very devil. >>> >> > >>> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >>> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >>> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >>> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >>> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >>> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >>> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >>> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >>> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >>> >> > >>> >> > 150&page=12 --- >>> >> > >>> ..................................................................... >>> >> > .................................... >>> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >>> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >>> >> > Mayank Patel >>> >> > >>> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >>> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >>> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >>> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >>> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >>> >> > reconciliation. >>> >> > >>> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >>> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >>> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >>> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >>> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >>> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >>> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >>> >> > >>> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >>> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >>> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >>> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >>> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >>> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >>> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >>> >> > >>> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >>> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >>> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >>> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >>> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >>> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >>> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >>> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >>> >> > >>> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >>> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >>> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >>> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >>> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >>> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >>> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >>> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >>> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >>> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >>> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >>> >> > >>> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >>> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >>> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >>> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >>> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >>> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >>> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >>> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >>> >> > >>> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >>> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >>> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >>> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >>> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >>> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >>> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >>> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >>> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >>> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >>> >> > >>> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >>> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >>> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >>> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >>> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >>> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >>> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >>> >> > >>> >> > Related story: >>> >> > >>> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >>> >> > >>> http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >>> >> > e2%80%93-history/ >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 17:59:02 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:59:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6AF0D3C89ED04DB292B7ED30985D3084@YOUR80SYHULQ3W> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6AF0D3C89ED04DB292B7ED30985D3084@YOUR80SYHULQ3W> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810220529r13582a0o121453761ababb3e@mail.gmail.com> Sh tara Prakash Ji, The suggestion you have given does not hold merit. If someone says Jai Siya ram , that does not mean that Sita comes first in priority and Rama Later , same hold true for Jai Radhe Krishna.... Whne we pay respect , we have to do that for both Karam Bhoomi , Janam Bhoomi and matr Bhoomi. Jai Maharashtra , Jai Hind just defines the love and respect for both the state and Nation. It is not putting a priority of state over nation. You re having difficulty in understanding the concept. Atleast the one I follow. Be blessed. Pawan. On 10/21/08, Tara Prakash wrote: > > Maharashtra comes before the nation. It has been the culture of right > wing, > first me, then my family ... then the rest. If they are left, that is. Was > BJP ever a nationalist party? Never. > Neither were the remaining political cousins. they have been selling this > crap to the people of this country. And some of us have been buying it. Let > us not exclude the kkashmiri separratists from the list of these cousins, > they have been using the same rhetoric. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" < > mail at shivamvij.com> > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: "sarai list" > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:18 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? > > > Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a >> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. >> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% >> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? >> >> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> >>> Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , >>> so >>> called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>> disinformation >>> campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being followed >>> more closely. >>> >>> Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >>> ascertained. >>> >>> Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >>> >>> >>> >>> Pawan >>> Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >>> >>> >>> On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >>>> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >>>> when they will join the mainstream? >>>> >>>> best >>>> shivam >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> wrote: >>>> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>> > By M.V. Kamath >>>> > >>>> > Organiser >>>> > >>>> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >>>> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >>>> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >>>> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >>>> > Indian mainstream. >>>> > >>>> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >>>> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >>>> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >>>> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >>>> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >>>> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >>>> > >>>> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >>>> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >>>> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >>>> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >>>> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >>>> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >>>> > then whose fault is it. >>>> > >>>> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >>>> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >>>> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >>>> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >>>> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >>>> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >>>> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >>>> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >>>> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >>>> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >>>> > >>>> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >>>> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >>>> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >>>> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >>>> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >>>> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >>>> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >>>> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >>>> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >>>> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >>>> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >>>> > >>>> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >>>> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >>>> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >>>> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >>>> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >>>> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >>>> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >>>> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >>>> > >>>> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >>>> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >>>> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >>>> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >>>> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >>>> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >>>> > religions. >>>> > >>>> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >>>> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >>>> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >>>> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >>>> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >>>> > win their favour. >>>> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >>>> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >>>> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >>>> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >>>> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >>>> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >>>> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >>>> > only seven could succeed. >>>> > >>>> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >>>> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >>>> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >>>> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >>>> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >>>> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >>>> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >>>> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >>>> > you want to stay separate. >>>> > >>>> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >>>> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >>>> > >>>> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >>>> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >>>> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >>>> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >>>> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >>>> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >>>> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >>>> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >>>> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >>>> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >>>> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >>>> > >>>> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >>>> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >>>> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >>>> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >>>> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >>>> > >>>> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >>>> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >>>> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >>>> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >>>> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >>>> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >>>> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >>>> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >>>> > shunned like the very devil. >>>> > >>>> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >>>> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >>>> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >>>> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >>>> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >>>> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >>>> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >>>> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >>>> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >>>> > >>>> > 150&page=12 --- >>>> > ..................................................................... >>>> > .................................... >>>> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >>>> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >>>> > Mayank Patel >>>> > >>>> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >>>> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >>>> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >>>> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >>>> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >>>> > reconciliation. >>>> > >>>> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >>>> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >>>> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >>>> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >>>> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >>>> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >>>> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >>>> > >>>> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >>>> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >>>> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >>>> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >>>> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >>>> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >>>> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >>>> > >>>> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >>>> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >>>> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >>>> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >>>> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >>>> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >>>> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >>>> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >>>> > >>>> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >>>> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >>>> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >>>> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >>>> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >>>> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >>>> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >>>> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >>>> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >>>> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >>>> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >>>> > >>>> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >>>> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >>>> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >>>> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >>>> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >>>> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >>>> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >>>> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >>>> > >>>> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >>>> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >>>> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >>>> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >>>> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >>>> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >>>> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >>>> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >>>> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >>>> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >>>> > >>>> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >>>> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >>>> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >>>> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >>>> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >>>> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >>>> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >>>> > >>>> > Related story: >>>> > >>>> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >>>> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >>>> > e2%80%93-history/ >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 18:05:33 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:05:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Must watch: Intellectual Subversion of Indian Nationalism by Mrs Radha Rajan In-Reply-To: <727533.94130.qm@web50803.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <727533.94130.qm@web50803.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810220535r49d4c469l633c7b6a16dff45c@mail.gmail.com> *A must watch Intellectual Terrorism and Subversion of Indian Nationalism by* *Mrs. Radha Rajan.* http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Intellectual+Terrorism+&emb=0&aq=f# From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 18:08:12 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:08:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fwd: Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <121949.16582.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <121949.16582.qm@web94911.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810220538m703c9312v3b90d660b1763bf7@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajendra ji i am fully aware what happens when we quote. but in culture, and in any language, we popularly lift verses or phrases and quote.....shakespeare and all, to enhance our expressions irrespective of the context in which that line was said in the book by a character. That does not amount to character assisination of the author. I have no special commitment not to find loopholes in the text by a particular author.... having said that, i still played safe, with emphases on the person ( Late Mr. Kanshi Ram ji ) who often quoted this along with other such things. i did't say that this thinking is central to the great poet. In fact i am not a student of Hindi literature, so i can go deep into the subject of TulsiDass, but the fact remains that we often lift things from what is popular. Dalit issue is not a recent one, and oppression of women, merciless beating of theives too is not also new, but what is painful that that past is still breathing in the present. So this was not to malign the author, but to intensify the debate which has a relevance in the present social/cultural political system. Now we can not say BSP is simply out of place to quote such things. although we know that dont quote nowadays, but we are free to quote while talking politics, since we keeps on referring this or that, which obviously distorts, but that is how we hope we might find a way out this quagmire. warmly is On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:22 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > > Inder salim ji, > > this you may find good read. By the wat your quote of Tulasidas was > incorrect when attributed to author. Hope you have read the author and > understood the contents. > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: Rajen Uppinangadi > To: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com > Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2008 1:09:15 PM > Subject: Fwd: Indian Muslims > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Indian Muslims Blog > Date: Oct 22, 2008 7:12 AM > Subject: Indian Muslims > To: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail..com > > Indian Muslims > > Ghalib: Ode to Benaras > > Posted: 21 Oct 2008 04:06 PM CDT > > The cancer of communalism and bigotry in South Asia continues to haunt us. > These days, the Muslims are once again a subject of intense, though not > always fair, scrutiny in India: their loyalties are being questioned and > many are potential terrorists if not already abettors of violence. The post > 9/11 world has contributed to the demonising of the Muslim identity and > history to surreal heights. > > The recent bomb blasts in Delhi have placed the communal discourse on the > front pages. The invaders and violent Muslims have done it again. A friend > called me from Delhi and narrated the profiling that takes place at > marketplaces and how the gulf between different communities is widening. > > There was a time, not in the ancient past, when in Delhi the greatest of > Urdu poets Mirza Ghalib (1796-1869) lived in an age when Hindus and Muslims > shared common saints, dargahs and even popular gods and goddesses. Written > accounts of this age – the mid to late 19th century – relate how intimate > co-exitence of "Mussalmans" and "Hindoos" had led to a relative amalgamation > of customs among the common people. And poets like Ghalib could see the > commonalities of spiritual streams: > > In the Kaaba I will play the shankh (conch shell) > > In the temple I have draped the ahraam (Muslim robe) > > The verse above delineates the Sufi concept of fana (or dissolution of the > self in divine reality) and the unity articulated by the ancient Indian > texts such as the Vedanta. Sufis were to elaborate this as the > wahdat-al-wajood (Unity of Being) philosophy. > > Ghalib's vision of a secular man and society were therefore largely shaped > by the crystallisation of a centuries' long evolution of co-existence, of a > culture that was inclusive and beyond the rigidities imposed by clergies. > When still in his teens, Ghalib moved to Delhi from Agra. A proud descendant > of Turkish ancestors, Ghalib was a phenomenal mind and a poet gifted with > boundless imagination. Through his life he suffered financial insecurities > that made him look for patronage first at the Mughal Court and later from > the British Government. However, his poetic imagination blossomed and his > mastery over the craft and soul of Urdu ghazal is universally acknowledged. > > Persian is no longer an accessible language for most readers in India and > Pakistan. Ghalib was proud of his Persian verse. This is why the discovery > of a lesser known Persian mathnavi (a long rhymed poem), Chiragh-e-Dair (the > temple lamp), has left me amazed at the range of his vision and the > integrity of his intellect. Ghalib's modern Indian biographer, Pavan Varma, > has produced a competent English translation of this Persian mathnavi in > Ghalib: the Man and the Times . Translations never do justice to the > originals, but the grandeur of Ghalib's thought process has not been lost in > this translation. > > May Heaven keep the grandeur of Benaras > > Arbour of this meadow of joy; > > For oft returning souls - their journey's end. > > In this weary Temple land of the world, > > Safe from the whirlwind of Time, > > Benaras is forever Spring. > > This poem was written when Ghalib broke his journey to Calcutta at Benaras. > Benaras, or Varanasi, is a revered site in Hinduism, believed to be where > time originated. Varanasi is also sacred in the Buddhist scriptures, as well > as in the great Hindu epic of Mahabharata . Dotted with ancient temples and > ghats , the embankments along the river Ganges have attracted millions of > pilgrims for centuries. Ghalib's journey to Calcutta was made with the > intent to petition the British authorities for the resumption of his royal > pension, which had ended with the Mughal rule in India. Ghalib resided in > Benaras for a month or so and imbibedthe temporal and spiritual beauties of > this ancient city. > > The masnavi in a symbolic way cites Kashi as Kaabaa-e-Hindustan, something > that clerics in India and Pakistan would not tolerate in the 21st century. > > The Kaaba of Hind; > > This conch blowers dell; > > Its icons and idols are made of the Light, > > That once flashed on Mount Sinai. > > These radiant idolations naids, > > Set the pious Brahmins afire, when their faces glow > > Like moving lamps…on the Ganges banks. > > It is incredible that a Muslim poet who prided himself on his Turkic > ancestry and invoked the "warrior" past in his day-to-day conversation > (through his letters) could compare the divine light at Mount Sinai to the > lamps at Benaras. This is a poem of extraordinary beauty, of cultural grace > that romanticises Ganga (Ganges River), Kashi (another name for Benaras) and > their magnificence through a unique set of images: > > Morning and Moonrise, > > My lady Kashi, > > Picks up the Ganga mirror > > To see her gracious beauty, > > Glimmer and shine. > > Later in the mathnavi, the poet questions a "pristine seer" who knows the > "secrets" of whirling time: "Sir, you will perceive/ That goodness and > faith, fidelity and love/Have all departed from the sorry land…/Brother > fights brother./Unity and federation are undermined./ Despite these ominous > signs/ Why has doomsday not come?" > > The seer rather poignantly points towards Kashi and smiling gently tells the > restive poet that the "Architect," is fond of Kashi's edifice that is the > source of all colour in life; and He would not like it to "perish and fall." > And the pride of Benaras soars to an eminence, "untouched by the wings of > thought." This was not the first or the last poem to be inspired by the > ambiance of Benaras but for a Muslim poet to compose it was phenomenal. I > wonder if today such lyricism and cultural inclusiveness is even remotely > achievable by any poet of the subcontinent. > > Admittedly Ghalib's unconventional views were not fully shared by many > Muslims. However, if there was lack of tolerance, it would have been > impossible for Ghalib to loudly proclaim his views and retain the immense > following in Delhi and outside. > > Pavan Varma, the translator and biographer, further tells us: "In a time of > fundamental discordance with his views, it may not have been possible for a > Hindu, Munshi Hargopal Tufta to become Ghalib's foremost Shagird [pupil] and > closest friend. Not would it have been possible for Ghalib to declare > another Hindu - Shivji Ram Brahman – to be like a son to him; or for the > Mughal emperor of his age, Bahadur Shah Zafar, to appoint a Hindu convert to > Christianity – Dr. Chaman Lal as his personal physician." > > Such times can only be imagined like the long-lost tales from a > Never-never-land. This is an age of terror, profiling and fracturing of what > was created by a millennium of cultural accords and understanding. > > And there is no Ghalib to inspire and reclaim the music of human > coexistence. > > Raza Rumi is a regular writer and blogs at RazaRumi.com. This article was > first published at The Friday Times. > > Photo: Banaras Ghats > > Shaheen Bagh Kidnapping Case: Observations And Questions > > Posted: 20 Oct 2008 11:30 PM CDT > > Kashif-ul-Huda, TwoCircles.net > > Strange thing about the Shaheen Bagh kidnapping incident is the behavior of > the policemen who attempted to kidnap Aamir but even stranger is the > behavior of Indian media covering this news. In this particular case UP > police is guilty for many unlawful acts and media by not giving the > attention it deserves did injustice to the citizens of India. > > The heroes of this incident are the residents of Jamia Nagar who were stern > but did not take law in their hands; they handed over the car and the > captured cop to the local police, thus preventing a bad situation from > turning ugly. But this incident provides an excellent opportunity for the > police and journalists to redeem themselves by doing the right thing, this > time around. > > It all started on the night of Oct 16th around 8pm. A black Hyundai car with > tinted windows pulled up in Shaheen Bagh area of Jamia Nagar. According to > eyewitnesses, they attempted to drag a Muslim youth Mohd Aamir in their > car.. Aamir resisted and shouted for help, local residents with memories of > arrests and encounter still fresh in their mind soon gathered around and > asked questions to the alleged kidnappers. They claimed that they are UP > police but refused to show any identification. None of them were in uniform > and people later told journalists that they could smell alcohol on them. > > A crowd gathered and they called the area leaders to tell them about the > situation. Leaders instead of provoking the people called the local police. > Meanwhile under the cover of darkness and confusion, some of the > "kidnappers" slipped away. One who was holding Aamir was in the middle of > the crowd and was thus unable to flee. Instead of manhandling him, residents > handed him and the car over to the Delhi Police. The concerned residents > followed the police to the Jamia Nagar police station and did not leave > until a complaint was filed. > > Delhi police contacted UP police and told the crowd that they did confirm > that these were indeed UP cops following on some information. Electronic > media that was present there at night completely blacked out the news but on > Saturday some newspapers published the news of the incidents but all those > stories became simply news of how residents resisted UP police. Journalists > who can easily get exclusive information from unnamed sources on terrorism > cases, it seems were simply not interested in this story. > > Those journalists who did attempt to cover it first asked if Aamir had a > criminal history. In private conversations, one journalist who did say that > it was 'unlawful act' showed no surprise saying that it was simply police > work and that's how they operate. > > Remarkable thing was that none of the reports in English media asked what > the UP cops were doing in an unmarked car with no license plate trying to > grab a person from the street. Even if Aamir is a person with criminal > history, shouldn't police be trying to uphold the rule of law? > > After the incident UP police started spinning their yarn and came out with > the story that Aamir snatched someone's chain in Noida and UP police chased > him from there to Shaheen Bagh. Even if it is true but question still stands > why they were on duty but without uniform and once they have crossed into > Delhi why they did not inform police whose jurisdiction they were in. > > If you ask Jamia residents, and this is important, a majority believed that > they were there to kidnap Aamir to finish him off in another fake encounter. > It is not too difficult to imagine why residents thought like that. They are > still fresh with the memory of the encounter that happened in their midst > and saw two youths and one police officer dead. They can be excused for > being in a state of heightened alert. But what is remarkable is that even > with that fresh memory and here a suspicious gang of people claiming to be > police and trying to kidnap a Muslim youth but still they did not do > anything to break the law. > > They did break windshields of the car but other than that they never did > cross the line of decency or law. They were well within the democratic right > to hold the suspicious person claiming to be UP police but no identification > to prove it.. Responsibly they called their leaders and local police and > handed over the car and the cop to them. > > Delhi police registered the complaint of Aamir regarding attempted > kidnapping on him. Jamia Nagar police station was full of residents of the > area but there was no shouting or speeches to emotionally charge the people > to take some drastic action. They respectfully listened to the police and > put their case in front of them. > > Those who spoke to TwoCircles.net's Mumtaz Alam Falahi narrated the incident > in calm manner without getting emotional or agitated. The crowd also found a > number of PAN cards, credit cards and different forms of IDs in the car. > > Among the IDs, there were three that belong to an IT company Steria.. Two of > them are identical with same name, number, and photo but the third one > though has same name as the other two, has different number and more > importantly, a different photo. Steria confirmed to TwoCircles.net that no > one with that name works in that company. What was the need for UP cops to > move around with fake IDs, do they carry some extra fake IDs with them as > part of their job or was it some sort of mission they were on that required > those fake IDs? > > So, again even if one believes UP police that they were indeed chasing Aamir > from Noida or if we put our faith in the stories published by some > newspapers that Aamir was a criminal still that doesn't explain what UP > police was doing in unmarked car without license plate, outside their > jurisdiction and with fake IDs. > > UP police need to inform who were the people inside that car that night and > who are the people whose IDs were found in the car. There were three PAN > cards in the car belonging to Jitendra Chopra s/o Om Prakash, Yogesh Pal > Singh s/o Vishnu Pal Singh and Paiti Singh d/o Narendara Singh. A bank card > in the name of Priti Singh (probably the PAN card has incorrect name) and > debit card of Yogesh Pal Singh. Another debit card in the name of Prashad > Jitendra and three fake IDs in the name of Harinder Singh issued by IT > company Steria. > > Other than IDs, a search of the car revealed that car belonged to one Vinit > Sharma resident of H. No. 512 Rajendra Park, Gurgaon. According to the > document found in it the car was delivered on May 5th, 2008. So it is fairly > new car and not registered in any government agency's name. What were these > policemen doing in a private car and according to UP police on an official > business? Who will explain UP policemen in a Haryana car trying to kidnap a > person in Delhi? > > Investigation should also be done on who is the owner of Nokia mobile phone > (number 9891372932) and whose name SIM card of Tata Indicom (number > A0000006394485 D-59C) is registered? This will reveal identity of the people > in the car. Only a thorough interrogation of each individual will reveal the > true nature of their mission that Thursday night. > > Residents found a license plate in the trunk of the car which shows the > number DL1T W 1590. License plate looks brand new and unused; no marking to > indicate it was ever screwed on any car. > > Journalists, who want to do real investigative work and not depend on police > handout and un-named sources for leaks have enough material to start their > investigation. Delhi police who has lost credibility in the Batla House > encounter case have now a perfect opportunity to regain the confidence of > the public by doing an honest investigation. This should be an easy task for > them since it affects none of them and all fault in this case lies with UP > police. Residents of Jamia Nagar have show exemplary citizenship by not > taking law in their hand, respecting the police and the law and doing > everything by the book. Now, it is the time of journalists and the police to > respect the ethics of their profession and regain the confidence and respect > of the people. > > Taqlidi Versus Ijtihadi Approaches > > Posted: 20 Oct 2008 11:04 PM CDT > > This is a translation of a portion done by Yoginder Sikand from a chapter > titled Taqlid Aur Ijtihad in Maulana Wahiduddin Khan's book Din-o-Shariat: > Din-e Islam Ka Ek Fikri Muta'ala [Goodword Books, New Delhi, 2003, > pp.204-214]. > > Human minds can be categorised into two types: taqlidi (stagnant and > imitative of past precedent) and ijtihadi (dynamic and creative). The former > denotes closed mindedness; the latter is its opposite, open mindedness. The > taqlidi mind attains a certain level and then stagnates, while the ijtihadi > mind keeps travelling ahead, stopping only at death. > > The difference between the taqlidi and the ijtihadi mindsets can be > illustrated with the help of an example. Shakespeare was a famous English > writer, and so was George Bernard Shaw, who was born some two hundred and > fifty years after the former's death. Shaw's contribution to English > literature was less than that of Shakespeare, and he himself admitted this > when he said, 'I am smaller in stature than Shakespeare, but I stand upon > his shoulders'. This is an example of an ijtihadi way of thinking, and a > society characterised by such persons constantly progresses in terms of > thought and intellect. Each new generation in such a society builds on the > contributions of its predecessors, adds to it and then transmits its legacy > to the generations that come after it. > > But contemporary Muslim societies present a completely different picture. In > modern times, their intellectual development has almost come to a halt. This > is because they have developed a taqlidi, as opposed to ijtihadi, way of > thinking, and consider ijtihad to be almost a sin. Many Muslims mistakenly > believe that in terms of religious perspectives, the ulema of the past have > accomplished all that there was to, and that today our task is simply to > study the books that they wrote and strictly follow them. > > This approach is a major hurdle in the path of our intellectual progress. In > this regard, Muslims can adopt one of two positions: to recognise, like Shaw > did with regard to Shakespeare, that their stature might be less than that > of the ulema of the past, but that, despite this, they are standing on the > latter's shoulders; or to believe that because their stature is less than > that of the ulema of the past, they must remain forever at the latter's > feet. > > The first of these two approaches represents an ijtihadi way of thinking, > one conducive to constant intellectual development. In a society > characterised by such an approach, each new generation fully respecst those > that went before it and, building, on the contributions of its predecessors, > makes even more progress. In contrast, the second approach represents a > taqlidi way of thinking, which keeps Muslim thought stagnant, preventing it > from moving in the direction of constantly progressing stages of knowledge > and understanding that Islam stands for. It also causes Muslims to fall > behind other communities in the intellectual field, killing their > intellectual faculties. > > Let me elaborate on this point with the help of some Hadith reports. > > Respect for Humanity > > Several narrators of Hadith have recorded that once, in Madinah, when a > procession carrying a dead body for burial passed by the Prophet, he stood > up on seeing it out of respect. His companions who were with him did the > same. When it was pointed out to him that the deceased was a Jew, the > Prophet simply remarked that the man was a human being. > > This incident is included in his collection of Hadith by Imam Bukhari, who > made an immense contribution to Hadith studies by collecting over 7000 > reports that he considered authentic from several hundred thousand reports > that had been attributed to the Prophet. He mentioned this hadith in the > chapter on burial in his Sahih Bukhari. Now, if we were to adopt a taqlidi > approach and consider this hadith simply as something related to burial, and > not something more than just that, we will not be able to learn anything new > from this hadith. We would simply parrot what the earlier commentators on > Hadith have said about it, without being able to derive anything new from > it. And while we respect the intellectual contributions of the earlier > exegetes of Hadith, we cannot accept all that they have written as gospel > truth. Many ulema of the past have commented on this hadith report, offering > various theories for the Prophet's action, with some claiming that this > practice [of standing up when the corpse of a non-Muslim passed by] was > later abrogated, or that the Prophet did so because he did not want the > corpse of a Jew to be at a level higher than that of his head, and so on. > Now, all these explanations are based on personal speculation and lack > adequate proof. This hadith narrative very clearly indicates that the > Prophet stood up out of respect for the dead man [and not because of any of > the reasons that these Hadith commentators had suggested]. In other words, > this hadith is not simply about burial, as those with a taqlidi mindset > would imagine. Rather, it is a fine example of respect for humankind, > irrespective of religion, as those with an ijtihadi mindset might be able to > discover. It could be offered as a counter to those who claim that while > Islam preaches respect for fellow Muslims, it does not do so with regard to > people of other faiths. This hadith, if approached in an ijtihadi way, can > be presented as evidence of the Islamic principle that all human beings are > worthy of respect, no matter what their religion or community. > > On the other hand, if this hadith is approached in a taqlidi fashion and is > interpreted in the same way as those traditionalist commentators we have > referred to have done, this Islamic principle will be completely occluded. > > Consideration for Context > > According to a report also contained in the Sahih Bukhari, the Prophet told > his wife Hazrat Ayesha that when the Qureish rebuilt the Kaaba they did not > do so on its original foundation as set by the Prophet Abraham, but, rather, > had changed it. Hearing this, Hazrat Ayesha asked the Prophet why he could > not restructure the Kaaba on its original foundation. To this the Prophet > replied that the Qureish had only recently renounced infidelity for Islam, > and it was possible that if he were to do so, it might cause them to > agitate. He added that had there been no danger of this happening he would > certainly have done what Hazrat Ayesha had suggested. > > Imam Bukhari has included this hadith in his chapter on Haj. Now, if we were > to consider the hadith simply in this way, reflecting a taqlidi approach, > all that we would gain from it would be some information about the glories > of Mecca. If, on the other hand, we adopt an ijtihadi approach to view this > hadith we can gain a new understanding of what can be called the wisdom of > practical living. To leave the Kaaba on the foundations laid by the Qureish, > instead of reconstructing it on the foundation laid by the Prophet Abraham, > might appear to have been incorrect. But, despite this, the Prophet chose > not to reconstruct it in the latter way because in the given circumstances > this would have posed additional problems. > > From this practice of the Prophet we can derive the principle that in life > when sometimes faced with certain challenges, for the moment we should look > not at what is right and what is wrong, but, instead, at what is possible > and what is not. > > Abiding by this principle is a key to succeeding in this world. In today's > world, many of the failures of Muslims have been because they have not > abided by this principle. They did not look at problems or challenges from > the point of view of what is possible and what is not, but, rather, > considered them only from the perspective of what is right and what is not. > Accordingly, they rushed into action hoping to attain what they thought was > ideal, although, in the given circumstances, achieving this was not actually > possible. Many of the sacrifices that Muslims in modern times have made but > that have not borne any fruits have been a result of abandoning this > principle that this hadith refers to. In turn, the major cause of this > attitude is the taqlidi mind-set. > > Gradualism in Establishing Islamic Commandments > > According to another hadith report in the Sahih Bukhari, Hazrat Ayesha once > mentioned that many of the earliest chapters of the Quran to be revealed > dealt with the subject of heaven and hell and that only after people's faith > in Islam had become strong were verses dealing with issues that are > permissible (halal) and forbidden (haram) sent down. She added that had the > commandments forbidding the consumption of alcohol and adultery been > revealed in the beginning, instead of later, people would have refused to > obey them. > > Imam Bukhari has included this hadith in his chapter on the compilation of > the Quran. Now if we were to view this hadith simply from the point of view > of it being related to the compilation of the Quran, in accordance with a > taqlidi perspective, we would not be able to derive any other knowledge from > it. On the other hand, by engaging in ijtihad and reflecting on the wider > implications of this hadith, going beyond its relation to the question of > the compilation of the Quran, we can discover that this hadith suggests a > very important Islamic principle—that with regard to the enforcement or > establishment of the rules of the shariah a certain wisdom is required. It > must be a gradual process, as it was in early Islamic times. Accordingly, at > first peoples' faith was made firm so that they would be receptive to > obeying Divine commands, and only after that were various laws introduced. > > If the approach of present-day Islamic leaders is examined from this way of > understanding this particular hadith, it appears that they have failed to > appreciate the underlying broader implications of this hadith as regards the > process of establishing Islamic laws in society. In many Muslim countries > today, numerous movements and groups are clamouring for the enforcement of > the shariah, but despite their many sacrifices this has not happened, in the > true sense of the term, anywhere. This is because the faith of the Muslims > has weakened, and their intellectual and emotional commitment has declined, > and this means that many of them are no longer willing to accept shariah > laws. Despite their fervent attempts to enforce shariah laws, these Muslim > leaders lacked the necessary ijtihadi approach and insight. They rushed into > the political realm armed with their taqlidi baggage, and thus failed to > achieve their objectives. They sought to impose shariah laws on society > without first seeking to prepare society to willingly accept them, in > contrast to what this hadith suggests is the right way. > > Change in Field of Activity > > According to another hadith report contained in the Sahih Bukhari, the > Prophet is said to have remarked that he had been instructed to proceed to > another town, Madinah, which people referred to as Yathrib. Imam Bukhari has > included this hadith in his chapter on the glories of Madinah. Now, those > with a taqlidi approach will view this hadith as providing information > simply about the glories of Madinah, and indeed this is what most exegetes > of Hadith in the past have done. Some have even seen this hadith as > indicating that to refer to Madinah as Yathrib is disapproved of (makruh). > However, the Quran itself refers to Madinah as Yathrib, and so this > explanation of this hadith is incorrect. But, if one goes beyond the blind > imitation of the past exegetes and ponders on this hadith from an ijtihadi > perspective, one learns that it speaks about a very important Islamic > principle—that of changing one's field or arena of action. This hadith > indicates that when conditions became extremely severe and harsh for Muslims > in Mecca, Allah commanded the Prophet to shift from there to another town, > Yathrib, where he and his followers would find a more conducive atmosphere, > so much so that it would become a centre of Islam and people would start > referring to it as the 'City of the Prophet' or Madinat al-Rasul or the > 'City of Islam' or Madinat al-Islam. > > Now, this principle of shifting one's arena of activity if conditions so > demand, which this hadith refers to, is important for success in various > matters. It indicates that if in a certain place conditions are > inappropriate one should shift to another place, or that if conflict would > prove useless, one should seek to achieve one's objectives through peaceful > dialogue. Unfortunately, today's Muslim leaders, burdened by their taqlidi > mentality, have not been able to appreciate and act on this wisdom, because > of which they have themselves faced considerable damage and loss. For > instance, in several countries today, violent movements are engaged in > conflict in the name of Islam, which have resulted in Muslims having to > suffer massive loss of life and property. Because of their taqlidi approach, > the leaders of these movements have been unable to appreciate the underlying > message of this hadith of the Prophet. They would have been able understand > the import of this hadith if they had an ijithadi approach. In that case, > and in accordance with the principle enunciated by this hadith, they would > have abandoned the path of conflict and adopted peaceful means instead. > Then, in accordance with the law of nature, they would have succeeded. > > From these above-mentioned examples I have sought to clarify the distinction > between the taqlidi and ijtihadi approaches. The former stops at the initial > stage and refuses to move ahead. In contrast, the latter proceeds through > all the stages, seeking to reach the end. The first step is the end in > itself for those who abide by taqlid, but for those inspired by and > committed to ijtihad, it is a means, a path to the higher stages. > > Stages of Studying the Hadith > > The early scholars of Hadith made an immense contribution by collecting and > compiling a vast number of hadith reports. This could be described as the > first stage in the study of Hadith. In what could be called the second > stage, the next generation of Hadith scholars prepared indices of Hadith in > order to make the subject easier to understand. In the third stage of the > development of the study of Hadith, the Companions of the Prophet and the > two generations that succeeded them edited and compiled the commentaries on > Hadith, thus preparing the necessary background material for a proper > understanding of Hadith. > > The fourth stage in the study of Hadith entails studying hadith reports in > their particular temporal context in order to appreciate their broader > meaning and implications. I have sought to do this with regard to selected > hadith reports that I have dealt with above. The fifth stage in the study of > Hadith could be to prepare an extensive encyclopaedia of all genuine hadith > reports so as to enable people to properly understand them in a style with > which they are familiar. Of course, these stages in the study of Hadith that > I have suggested are not categorical or final. Rather, these are offered > simply for purposes of indicating the differences between a taqlidi and an > ijtihadi way of understanding, and to point out the benefits of the latter. > > Photo:Quran > > You are subscribed to email updates from Indian Muslims Blog > To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email Delivery > powered by FeedBurner > Inbox too full? Subscribe to the feed version of Indian Muslims Blog in a > feed reader. > If you prefer to unsubscribe via postal mail, write to: Indian Muslims Blog, > c/o FeedBurner, 20 W Kinzie, 9th Floor, Chicago IL USA 60610 > > -- > rajen > ________________________________ > Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at rocketmail.com. Sign up > now! -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 22 18:13:36 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:13:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Must watch: Intellectual Subversion of Indian Nationalism by Mrs Radha Rajan In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810220535r49d4c469l633c7b6a16dff45c@mail.gmail.com> References: <727533.94130.qm@web50803.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70810220535r49d4c469l633c7b6a16dff45c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810220543g72f5fd7dlc5c30c66ab0bd638@mail.gmail.com> Devil's Advocate: Arundhati on media-police collusion http://www.ibnlive.com/news/devils-advocate-arundhati-on-mediapolice-collusion/76234-3.html video: http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/76234/10_2008/devils_arundhati_1/devils-advocate-arundhati-on-mediapolice-collusion.html Must watch, must watch! On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > *A must watch Intellectual Terrorism and Subversion of Indian Nationalism > by* *Mrs. Radha Rajan.* > > > http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Intellectual+Terrorism+&emb=0&aq=f# > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 22 20:23:16 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:23:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reservation on the moon In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810220351w300d6fbax882c257b1486f6bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810220351w300d6fbax882c257b1486f6bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810220753l38b044a9k2706a865282c5785@mail.gmail.com> Deja vu! This had been circulating around the time of the perverse "Mandal II" anti-Shudra agitation. At the time Aditya Raj Kaul would most likely have circulated something like this. But now, Kirdar Singh ji, you have included 5 Kashmiri migrants, so you've got an unenthusiastic response from ARK. Anyway, the old version of this tale that seeks to illuminate us about merit over social justice, was posted on this list by Yousuf back then. See http://readerlist.freeflux.net/blog/archive/2006/05/24/reader-list-reservation-on-the-moon.html The old list went thus: 35 - Brahmins (all sub-castest and communities) 30 - Baniyas (all sub-castest and communities) 20 - Kshatria (all sub-castest and communities) 11 - all other upper castes 2 - OBCs 1 - SCs 1 - STs 0 - Astronauts I had replied this, back then, thus: http://readerlist.freeflux.net/blog/archive/2006/05/28/re-reader-list-reservation-on-the-moon.html My list: 35 - Brahmins (all sub-castes and communities) 30 - Baniyas (all sub-castes and communities) 20 - Kshatria (all sub-castes and communities) 11 - all other upper castes 2 - OBCs 1 - SCs 1 - STs 0 - Astronauts best shivam On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:21 PM, kirdar singh wrote: > Manmohan Singh said to George Bush - "We are sending Indians to the > moon next year". > > Bush - "Wow! How Many?" > > Manmohan Singh - "about 100 - and in the following order: > > 25 - OBC > > 25 - SC > > 20 - ST > > 5 - Handicapped > > 5 - Sports Persons > > 5 - Terrorist Affected > > 5 - Kashmiri Migrants > > 9 - Politicians > > and if possible > > 1 - Astronaut > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 20:44:24 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:44:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kwame Appiah on How Muslims Made Europe Message-ID: Volume 55, Number 17 · November 6, 2008 How Muslims Made Europe By Kwame Anthony Appiah New York Review of Books http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22029 God's Crucible: Islam and the Making of Modern Europe, 570–1215 by David Levering Lewis Norton, 473 pp., $29.95 Rveviewer: Kwame Anthony Appiah (born 1954 in London) is a Ghanaian philosopher, cultural theorist, and novelist whose interests include political and moral theory, the philosophy of language and mind, and African intellectual history. Appiah was educated at Bryanston School and Clare College, Cambridge, where he earned a Ph.D. in philosophy. His father was the Ghanaian politician and barrister Joe Appiah, and his mother was Peggy Cripps, a children's-book author. His family has a long political tradition: his maternal grandfather was Sir Stafford Cripps, a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer (1947-1950) under Clement Attlee. The conception of the Mediterranean as the meeting of three continents goes back to classical Greece. But it took a further intellectual leap to conceive of their inhabitants as a collectivity. You can have Europe, Africa, and Asia without thinking of Europeans, Africans, and Asians as particular kinds of people. David Levering Lewis's rich and engaging God's Crucible shows that it took two things to make Europeans think of themselves as a people. One was the creation of a vast Holy Roman Empire by the six-foot-four, thick-necked, fair-haired Frankish warrior king we know as Charlemagne. The other was the development, in the Iberian peninsula on the southwestern borders of his dominion, of the Muslim culture of Spain, which the Arabs called al-Andalus. In the process that made the various tribes of Europe into a single people, what those tribes had in common and what distinguished them from their Muslim neighbors were both important. This is, by now, a familiar idea. But God's Crucible offers a more startling proposal: in making the civilization that modern Europeans inherit, the cultural legacy of al-Andalus is at least as important as the legacy of the Catholic Franks. In borrowing from their great Other, they filled out the European Self. Charlemagne's rule included at its high point most of France, Switzerland, Belgium and the Netherlands, the west of Germany, Italy as far south as Rome, a strip in the north of Spain, and parts of Hungary and the Balkans. At nearly three and a half million square miles, it was larger than the continental United States. Charlemagne imposed Catholic orthodoxy on the pagan Saxons in the east at the point of a very sharp sword, massacring thousands of those who resisted, and suppressed heresy within Frankland with equal vigor. He created monastic centers of learning, drawing scholars from across his empire and beyond; and after the centuries of ignorance that had followed the collapse of the Roman Empire in Gaul and Germania, the works of men like the Northumbrian Alcuin (poet, theologian, and restorer of the classical curriculum) created a Carolingian Renaissance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These achievements perhaps entitled Charlemagne to his self-conception as Rome's heir in the West, author of a Renovatio Romani Imperii, an imperial restoration. When he traveled to Rome in December 800, some thirty years into his reign, he went to defend the authority of Leo III as pope; and His Holiness returned the favor by crowning him Emperor of the Romans on Christmas Day 800 (much to the annoyance of the Byzantine regent Irene, who called herself Emperor, rather than Empress, and thought the title was hers). Charlemagne was a great soldier, a devoted Catholic, an ambitious administrator, and a patron of learning. He had reason to take pride in what would prove a brilliant Carolingian legacy; we need think only of the magnificent carved ivory plaques in the Cloisters of the Metropolitan Museum or the elegance of manuscripts in Carolingian minuscule or Alcuin's Latin verse history of York. But the empire he created was, as Lewis puts it trenchantly, "religiously intolerant, intellectually impoverished, socially calcified, and economically primitive," ruled by a "warrior caste and its clerical enforcers." Despite the new currency, the economy was dominated by barter; there were few cities of any size; and wealth was measured in land, peasants, and slaves. Charlemagne had no national system of taxation. He lived off plunder and the product of his own estates. What his lords owed him was military service. They were obliged to show up annually in the late spring, armed for a military campaign, in case he thought it necessary. (Very often, he did.) The Franks had once been a relatively free agrarian people; now they were largely a nation of serfs, working alongside slaves—many of them Slavs from Bohemia and the southern shores of the Baltic. Charlemagne's royal hall, in his new capital at Aachen, was built on a fifty-acre complex of buildings, secular and religious, and was the largest stone structure north of the Alps. But it paled in comparison to the architectural majesty of Byzantium or Rome. The King endowed libraries with hundreds of manuscripts, impressive by comparison with anything that had been seen hitherto by the Franks, but pitiful (as Gibbon observed) beside the thousands of documents in the libraries of Italy or Spain. He created a new bureaucratic structure, sending royal officials to each of the 350 counties of his realm to deliver his commands, hear cases, and, when necessary, to summon his people to war. But as Lewis says, much of this royal centralizing had scarcely more than a parchment reality in a world of near-universal illiteracy, deep suspicion and resentment on the part of the nobility, and a crippling disparity between resources and objectives. The fact is that Charlemagne's empire, impressive as it was, lacked many of the marks of what we think of as civilization: cities, commerce, great libraries, a literate elite. This is especially clear if we compare the world he made with the cultivated society of his new Muslim neighbors. Like Charlemagne's empire, al- Andalus was very much the product of a war machine. Islam burst out of Arabia in the seventh century, spreading with astonishing rapidity in every direction. After the Prophet's death in 632, the Arabs managed in a mere thirty years to defeat the two great empires to their north, Rome's Christian residue in Byzantium and the Zoroastrian Persian empire that reached through Central Asia as far as India. The dynasty of the Umayyad clan, which took control of Islam in 661, pushed on west into North Africa and east into Central Asia. In early 711, Tariq Ibn-Ziyad, acting for the sixth Umayyad caliph in Damascus, led a Berber army across the Straits of Gibraltar into Spain.[1] There he attacked the Visigoths who had ruled much of the Roman province of Hispania for two centuries. A year later, a new army of 18,000 men, mostly Yemeni Arabs, joined in the assault. Within seven years, most of the Iberian peninsula was under Muslim rule; not until 1492, nearly eight hundred years later, was the whole peninsula under Christian sovereignty again. After the early Muslim triumphs, the Christians of northern Iberia fought back, consolidating the Kingdom of Asturias in the 720s, and recovering Galicia from Muslim rule by the end of the next decade. In the mountainous northwest of the peninsula, on the storm-buffeted southern coast of the Bay of Biscay, the Christian tribes were largely able to resist Muslim encroachment. Nor was Muslim rule ever secure in the Basque region on the southern side of the Pyrenees. The Upper, Middle, and Lower Marches (or borderlands) lay between the core of al-Andalus, the region around Córdoba, and these Christian kingdoms in the northwest, on the one hand, and the Franks over the mountains to the northeast, on the other. As borderlands—whether with the Asturians or with the Franks—the Marches were always at risk of attack. The Umayyads did not, however, intend to stop at the Pyrenees. Their first attempt to take Aquitaine, the southern Frankish duchy, was frustrated in 721, when Duke Odo charged his heavy horses through a Muslim army encamped outside his capital at Toulouse. But a little more than a decade later, 'Abd al-Rahman, the new emir of al-Andalus, returned to take up the task, with a vast, disciplined, experienced Moorish army. He sent Odo scuttling off from a defeat near Bordeaux and marched on northward toward Poitiers, almost halfway from the Pyrenees to Paris. Near Poitiers, however, the Muslims met their match. In October 732, Charles Martel, Charlemagne's grandfather, who had force-marched his troops from the faraway Danube, joined Duke Odo in decimating the emir's troops. A Christian scribe in a Latin chronicle written in 754 calls the victors at Poitiers Europenses : it is the first recorded use of a Latin word for the people of Europe. And it was written in al-Andalus. Later Christian historians assigned to the Battle of Poitiers an epochal significance. Gibbon remarked that if the Moors had covered again the distance they had traveled from Gibraltar, they could have reached Poland or the Scottish Highlands. Perhaps, he thought, if 'Abd al-Rahman had won, "the interpretation of the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Mahomet." For him, the fate of Christian Europe hung in the balance. After a week of battle, he wrote, "the Orientals were oppressed by the strength and stature of the Germans, who...asserted the civil and religious freedom of their posterity."[2] At the time, though, it would have been odd to regard Charles Martel's victory as guaranteeing religious freedom. The small but influential Jewish community in Iberia had been tolerated in Spain when their Visigothic overlords were still Arian heretics ruling Catholic and Jewish subjects; but Jews began to be persecuted in 589, when the Visigoths converted to Catholicism. For the Jews, then, the Muslim Conquest, bringing rulers who practiced toleration toward them as well as toward Christians and Zoroastrians, was not unwelcome. During the first period of Muslim domination, Christians, too, discovered that they would have religious freedom, so long as they (like the Jews) did not seek to convert Muslims or criticize Islam. The contrast with Frankish rule could hardly have been more striking. The obsession of Catholic rulers with religious orthodoxy was one of the things that made the Dark Ages—as Petrarch was to dub the period from the fifth to the tenth centuries—so dark. Nor was it evident at the time that the Battle of Poitiers had put an end to the dreams of a Muslim conquest in the land of the Franks. For nearly thirty years the Arabs maintained control of Septimania—modern-day Languedoc in southern France—ruling from their capital at Narbonne. In the ensuing decade there were constant sallies and retreats as a succession of emirs sought to go deeper into Frankish territory. In all this back-and-forth, it makes little sense (as Lewis shows) to pick Poitiers as the turning point. Indeed, the greatest obstacle to Muslim expansion proved to be the divisions among the Muslims, which led to almost constant conflict in al-Andalus. Discord in the world of Islam began in the tribal society that was the religion's first home. The Prophet came from the Meccan Quraysh tribe, whose members were regarded with special favor by the faithful. Among the Quraysh, Muhammad's clan was particularly exalted. The first caliphs were all Qurayshi, but the first dynasty came not from Muhammad's kinsmen but from the Umayya clan. When the fourth caliph, Ali, the Prophet's cousin and son-in-law, was assassinated and succeeded by an Umayyad caliph, a long rivalry between the clans was launched.[3] In 750, revolts in the new Muslim empire unraveled the Umayyad dynasty; and the new caliph of the Abbasid clan set out to massacre anyone who could resurrect the Umayyad line. Not for nothing was he called as-Saffah, the Shedder of Blood. Unfortunately for Abbasid claims to control of the empire, the bloodletting was not completed. 'Abd al-Rahman, nineteen-year-old grandson of the Umayyad caliph Hisham I, evaded capture, and managed to get to Morocco. Across the narrow straits between Morocco and al-Andalus, 'Abd al-Rahman planned to conquer a Muslim society whose rulers owed their place to the patronage of his ancestors. In 755 he landed in Granada with over a thousand Berber cavalry. He was twenty-five years old. Within a year, he had installed himself in Córdoba, as emir of al-Andalus. But his hold on power was tenuous. He lost his foothold north of the Pyrenees in 759 to Pippin the Short, Charlemagne's father, in part because he was facing a revolt in the west of his own empire. And he spent most of his time in the saddle, fighting resistance to his claims as emir. When 'Abd al-Rahman defeated the Abbasid emir in 763, he commanded that all prisoners of war be executed, and himself presided as the emir's hands and feet and then head were cut off. "Labeled and pickled in brine, the leaders' heads were dispatched to Mecca," Lewis writes. "When Caliph al-Mansur received the gory details, he is said to have expostulated, 'God be praised for placing a sea between us!'" Despite, or perhaps because of, these sanguinary beginnings, the reign of 'Abd al-Rahman and his descendants in al-Andalus introduced a period of relative stability. An emir had to be ready at any moment to defend his territory from without and his authority within. But alongside the disciplines of war, he could practice the arts of peace. The original core of the Great Mosque at Córdoba, which stands to this day, was built for 'Abd al-Rahman in an astonishing burst of architectural fervor, apparently between 785 and 786. With 152 columns, arranged in eleven aisles, it consisted of two parts: a large prayer hall, some two thirds of an acre in area, and an adjoining piazza of the same size, filled with rows of orange trees, which together made up a square whose sides measured about 240 feet. The results, added onto over the centuries, still amaze. Lewis writes: Its builders devised the art and science of transmuting matter into light and form that medieval Christendom was the poorer for its general inability to comprehend.... The unprecedented innovation of the Great Mosque's master builder was to loft the coffered ceiling to a height of forty feet by means of an upper tier of semicircular arches that appeared to be clamped to the bottom tier of horseshoe arches supported by columns.... Structurally ingenious, the visual effect of the double arches has been from the moment of completion one of the world's distinctively edifying aesthetic experiences. If the Great Mosque was the most evident material embodiment of the civilization of the Arabs in Spain, their intellectual achievements were even more astonishing. Starting in 'Abd al-Rahman's time, the Umayyads sought to compete with their Abbasid rivals in Baghdad for cultural bravura. Over the next few centuries, Córdoba alone acquired hundreds of mosques, thousands of palaces, scores of libraries. By the tenth century, those libraries had hundreds of thousands of manuscripts, dwarfing the largest libraries of Christian Europe. The university of Córdoba predated Bologna, the first European university, by more than a century. And al-Andalus was a world of cities, not, like Europe, a world of country estates and small towns. By the end of the millennium, Córdoba's population was 90,000, more than three times the size of any town in the territory once occupied by Charlemagne. In those cities, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Arabs, Berbers, Visigoths, Slavs, and countless others created the kind of cultural goulash—a spicy mixture of a variety of distinct components—that would generate a genuine cosmopolitanism. There were no recognized rabbis or Muslim scholars at the court of Charlemagne; in the cities of al-Andalus there were bishops and synagogues. Racemondo, Catholic bishop of Elvira, was Córdoba's ambassador to Constantinople and Aachen. Hasdai ibn Shaprut, leader of Córdoba's Jewish community in the middle of the tenth century, was not only a great medical scholar but was also the chairman of the caliph's medical council; and when the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII sent the caliph a copy of Dioscorides' De Materia Medica, the caliph sent for a Greek monk to help translate it into Arabic. The knowledge that the caliph's doctors acquired made Córdoba one of the great centers of medical expertise in Europe. By the time of 'Abd al-Rahman's successor and namesake, 'Abd al-Rahman III, in the tenth century, the emir of al-Andalus had the confidence to declare himself caliph, successor or representative of the Prophet and, implicitly, leader of the Muslim world. Like Charlemagne's, the emir's position was partly religious; he was supposed to be (and often was) pious. But piety for the emirs did not mean—as it did for the Holy Roman Emperor—imposing one's religion on others. From the earliest times, the emirs of al-Andalus accepted conversion but did not demand it. There were, naturally, some pressures to convert: non-Muslim subjects—the so-called dhimmi—were required to pay special taxes; and non-Muslims could be enslaved while, at least in theory, Muslims could not. Still, it probably took about two centuries after 'Abd al-Rahman's death in 788 for Muslims to become a majority in al-Andalus.[4] In the cities of al-Andalus, scholars of all three faiths, with access to the learning of the classical world that the Arabs had inherited and brought to the West, gathered and transmitted the learning whose recovery in Europe created the Renaissance. By 777, 'Abd al-Rahman, now in his mid-forties, and still a vigorous warrior, had established control over some two thirds of the peninsula. Not all his co-religionists were pleased. Evidently hoping to contain him, the emir of Barcelona and the Muslim governors of Saragossa and Huesca rode the nearly one thousand miles to Saxony to conspire with Charlemagne. It was at a time when the King had gathered his nobles and his leading clergy for the Diet of Paderborn to receive the submission of the Saxon tribes and witness the baptism of many of their leaders. The coincidence seemed providential. Here were three Muslim princes offering fealty to the king of the Franks and the Lombards, who had recently become ruler of the Saxons as well. "To Charlemagne's vaulting ambitions," Lewis writes, "the symmetry of a Frankland flanked by two conquered peninsulas proved irresistible—rex Hispanicum added to the title rex Francorum et Langobardum." In 778, Charlemagne assembled an army of Franks, Bavarians, Burgundians, Lombards, Septimanians, and others—perhaps as many as 25,000 men at arms—to begin his assault on Hispania. For the first time in history, a Christian army set out to conquer the world of Islam; but it did so at the invitation of and in alliance with Muslims. 'Abd al-Rahman prepared his own army but he did not have to use it. Accounts of Charlemagne's great muster gave the governor of Saragossa second thoughts, and so when the Frankish armies arrived there, expecting to be welcomed, its gates remained barred. Worse news came from the far north; the Saxons whose defeat he had celebrated at Paderborn had risen in revolt. When Charlemagne sought refuge in the old Basque city of Pamplona, his fellow Catholics spurned him. Infuriated, he destroyed Pamplona. In the end, a Christian city was the major victim of his planned assault on the Muslim emirate. As Charlemagne retreated through the Pyrenees, he was harried by Basques, who had no love for the Frankish king who had devastated their city; and in a mountain pass at Roncesvalles the Frankish rear guard was destroyed. Einhard, Charlemagne's first biographer, lists among the dead "Roland, Lord of the Breton Marches." This appalling Christian loss to fellow Christians—Catholic Franks slaughtered by Catholic Basques—was transmuted three centuries later in the Chanson de Roland into a fatal conflict between Christianity and Islam. In the epic, Charlemagne sees the carnage of the flower of Frankish chivalry, and destroys an army sent from the other end of the Muslim world. In reality, Charlemagne now turned his wrath on the Saxon apostates. By the summer of 779, he had amassed a great army aimed at the final conversion of the Saxons from paganism. At Verden in 782, according to Einhard, Charlemagne supervised the slaughter of 4,500 Saxon prisoners. The armies of the Saxons were defeated in 785. Charlemagne threatened those who refused baptism with capital punishment. As late as 804, Charlemagne uprooted 10,000 recalcitrant Saxons, settling them in the west of his kingdom. After four and half decades in power, Charlemagne died in 814. His rule overlapped the last twenty years of 'Abd al-Rahman's emirate, encompassed the twelve-year reign of al-Rahman's son, Hisham I, and also part of the twenty-eight-year reign of the grandson who consolidated Umayyad rule. The limitations of Charlemagne's state-building were evident at his death. He had made plans, following Frankish tradition, to divide the kingdom among his three legitimate sons, but only Louis the Pious was still alive by the time he died. Louis's attempts to divide the empire among his own sons led to a series of civil wars, out of which emerged a partition of Charlemagne's empire, laid out at the Treaty of Verdun of 843. The Frankish empire was split into East, Middle, and West Francia. The eastern kingdom became the (new) Holy Roman Empire, including much of present-day Germany; the western one is the core of modern France; and the middle kingdom included Burgundy, Italy, and the Low Countries. Verdun effectively ended the Frankish empire that had united Western Europe for the first time since the Romans. 'Abd al-Rahman's heirs as emirs of Córdoba held al-Andalus together with a little more success. But by the 880s, under his ineffective great-great-grandson, the emirate was so weakened by rebellion and demands for regional autonomy that his writ barely ran beyond Córdoba. It took that emir's son, 'Abd al-Rahman III, to consolidate Umayyad authority in the peninsula and extend it into North Africa. For nearly half a century, from 912 to 961, he built Córdoba into a center of power, creating a palace complex, the Madinat al-Zahra, that awed all who visited it, from the governors of the towns of the Marches to the ambassador of the Holy Roman Empire. After the debacle at Roncesvalles, Charlemagne never returned to Spain. In 798, the governor of Barcelona sought Frankish help in achieving independence from 'Abd al-Rahman's grandson, and Charlemagne authorized a campaign led by his son Louis. Barcelona was reconquered in 801 after a two-year siege. By 812, after a series of Frankish campaigns, the emir in Córdoba had accepted that his border was at the river Ebro, which runs through Saragossa in the northeastern part of the peninsula. The Umayyad caliphate collapsed in the eleventh century and Muslim Spain descended into a chaos of little kingdoms, the Ta'ifa, some ruled by Arabs, some by Berbers, some by Slavs. In 1085, Alfonso VI, Christian king of Leon and Castile, captured Toledo; unlike the Franks, he knew better than to impose Catholicism on the people at the point of a sword. He called himself "king of the two religions"—meaning Islam and Christianity—but tolerated Jews as well: his doctor, Joseph Nasi Ferruziel, was Jewish. The spirit of cohabitation that the Arabs had created survived their departure. It took nearly four more centuries to get from the king of the two religions to the rigorous intolerance of the Spanish Inquisition. The Berber dynasts—Almoravids and Almohads—who eventually took control of Córdoba and Seville, re-establishing a single Muslim state in the southern third of the peninsula from the eleventh to the thirteenth century, were very different from their Arab predecessors; they were driven by an intolerant orthodoxy that made it impossible to sustain the centuries-old intellectual openness that had made Umayyad Spain a place of scientific and philosophical learning. True, the philosopher Ibn Rushd—known to the Christian world as Averroës—had the first Almohad emir as his patron; but three years before his death, he was exiled to a village near Córdoba in 1195, his philosophical speculations condemned by the conservative Muslim scholars who now dominated the society. As for Maimonides, the greatest of the Jewish scholars of al-Andalus, his family had to leave Córdoba around 1148, escaping Spain for Alexandria, by way of Morocco and Palestine. Without Ibn Rushd, whom Aquinas called simply the Commentator (on Aristotle, it was understood), as without Maimonides, there is no doubt, as Lewis insists, that the intellectual history of Europe would have been radically different. And without the Umayyad centuries, both Maimonides and Ibn Rushd would have been inconceivable. The conquest of Spain by an alliance of Catholic princes was now proceeding apace. They called it a reconquest, because they saw it as the return to power of Catholicism in the peninsula, long centuries after the Visigoths had lost control. In the thirteenth century, the Almohads abandoned Granada to the last Muslim dynasty in Spain. Within a decade it was a tributary state of Catholic Castile. The end of al- Andalus came with the submission, in 1492, of the last emir to los Reyes Católicos, Ferdinand, King of Aragon, and Isabella, Queen of Castile. By then the crusades had for nearly three centuries been redefining the contrast between Christians and Muslims, shifting the focus of the conflict to the east. The toleration that Alfonso VI, Isabella's ancestor, had shown to the two religions that had shared Spain with the Catholics for so many centuries was formally ended: expulsion or conversion was required of all the Muslims and Jews of Iberia. The pattern that Charlemagne had set in Saxony was carried forward, once more with a pope's blessing, in Spain. There were Europeans before there were Frenchmen or Germans or Italians or Spaniards because there was a world of kingdoms in the western residue of the Roman Empire bound by Catholicism to Rome. The histories that made France, Germany, Italy, and Spain—not to mention Portugal, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, or the Netherlands—all pass through one or both of the empires Charlemagne and 'Abd al-Rahman made. God's Crucible reveals how much the world we have inherited is the product of identities created long ages ago in rivers of blood, proceeding from a slaughter that was as often within Christendom or Islam as it was at their frontiers. But there is also a more uplifting message here. Though Christians and Jews were clearly subordinated to Muslims in al-Andalus, they were nevertheless able to share in its manifold intellectual and material treasures. Had the three religions not worked together, borrowing from the pagan traditions of Greece and Rome, what we call the West would have been utterly different. In an age where some claim a struggle between the heirs of Christendom and of the Caliphate is the defining conflict, it is good to be reminded of this history of fruitful cohabitation. Earlier this year, I visited the Center for Contemporary Culture of Barcelona, housed in an old seminary. In the entrance archway, a group of people dressed informally in North African clothes, the men in long djellabas, the women with their heads covered in silk scarves, chatted cheerfully. Their presence was a reminder that the project of Charlemagne and los Reyes Católicos—the creation of a totally Catholic Europe—has failed; a failure that began, of course, from within, in the Reformation and took hold in the Enlightenment, both of which, though they have many other ancestors, are heirs to the philosophical traditions transmitted through al-Andalus. As the Muslim children ran around their parents on a warm, spring evening, it occurred to me that in a different history, without the Reconquest, I might still have seen people much like them in that archway—or, at any rate, one much like it; and, since I had read God's Crucible, I decided that in that other history the Christian Catalans who wandered by would also not have seemed out of place. Notes [1]Which is where Gibraltar gets its name: Jabal Tariq in Arabic is Tariq's Mountain. [2]Edmund Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (P.F. Collier & Son, 1899), p. 288. [3]The division between Sunni and Shia Islam originates here. The Shia are the followers of Ali, believing that the household of the Prophet should provide the leaders of Islam. [4]Richard W. Bulliet, Conversion To Islam In The Medieval Period: An Essay In Quantitative History (Harvard University Press, 1979), p. 124. From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 21:02:48 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:32:48 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Kashmir=27s_people_at_centre_stage_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=28Hindu=29?= Message-ID: <9592CB1973ED42718324B72401FE5B5E@tara> Kashmir's people at centre stage In less than four weeks' time, millions living in what is sometimes described as the most dangerous place on earth will make their way to polling stations stretching from the shadows of Siachen to the sun-baked plains of Samba. More than a few voices had called for deferring the elections until next summer, fearing that the still-raw wounds of the violence Jammu and Kashmir saw this summer could lead to a poor voter turnout and a verdict polarised along communal line s. Others were worried that terrorist violence, or an anti-election campaign by secessionists, could lead to more bloodshed. All these concerns are legitimate. But by ordering that elections to the State Legislative Assembly be held in time to avoid the imposition of central rule, the Election Commission of India has made a courageous and principled decision that places at centre stage the right of the people to shape their own future. Without doubt, the poll process will face many severe challenges before the seven-phase election is completed in December. But the fact that fear has not been allowed to derail democracy is something of a triumph in itself. For decades, elections in Jammu and Kashmir were used as instruments of some cause: to bring a particular party to power, for example, or for demonstrating the legitimacy of the State's accession to India. Ever since 1996, when democracy returned to the State after an extended breakdown brought about by jihadist violence, elections have been cast as a tool for peacemaking. The ECI's decision underlines the fact that while elections may indeed yield desirable outcomes, this is not their raison d'étre. By making clear that democracy is not contingent on circumstance or result, the ECI has helped the healing of the dysfunctions that came to characterise J&K's political life because of the decades-old subversion of democracy. The elections will, moreover, make clear to political parties in Jammu and Kashmir that they - not New Delhi or for that matter Islamabad - are the principal architects of the State's destiny. Over the summer, the Congress-People's Democratic Party alliance government paid the price for the two partners' political opportunism and failure to challenge the forces of religious and ethnic chauvinism. Now, the people of the State will have the opportunity to assess that record and decide who might have the best vision for the future. In 1996 and 2002, terrorist violence claimed the lives of almost 200 political workers from most major parties, who put their lives on the line to campaign for their beliefs. Ensuring that there will be an elected government in Jammu and Kashmir before the New Year is a fitting tribute to that sacrifice. From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 21:19:37 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:49:37 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Cutting off the chain of hate Message-ID: <5D69FB00698649F4A585D3FC889E9576@tara> Cutting off the chain of hate Mihir Shah Martin Luther King's profound inversion of Nietzsche's critique of Christianity is a beacon of light for all those who still dream of making a change in the world. If injustice is a large fact of the world we live in, so is hate. And there is no surprise here. For, the very intensity of injustice provokes anger. Which fuels hate. Capitalism has created unimaginable material prosperity for millions. But hunger and distress remain widespread. The early years of the 21st century have seen hungry people rioting in 37 countries. Eighty per cent of the world's population still lives below the international poverty line. The World Ba nk speaks of an almost unnoticed "silent famine" enveloping large parts of the globe. Adding hurt to this absolute distress are widening disparities. A recent World Bank study reveals that between 1820 and 1992, the income share of the bottom 60 per cent of the world's population halved to around 10 per cent, while the share of the top 10 per cent rose to more than 50 per cent. A United Nations report covering the period 1950-1998, also reveals growing inequalities within nations. These inequalities revolve around multiple axes of class, community, region, religion and gender. Religion has emerged as a central axis of conflict. Violence as a response to perceived injustice is on the rise, reflecting in part the failure of democracies to function effectively across the world. The fruits of India's own development have been shared very unequally, especially in certain geographies (Adivasi enclaves, drylands, hills) and with specific social groups (Dalits, Muslims). India witnessed the fastest growth of high networth individuals worldwide in 2007. In the "other India," across 200 districts, lakhs of people are either committing suicide or taking to the gun. Martin Luther King suggests a different response to injustice - the path of love. But the love he spoke of was no ordinary love. In an essay written in 1957, King elaborated the very different meanings of three words for love in the Greek New Testament. Eros, in Platonic philosophy, means the yearning of the soul for the realm of the divine. It has come now to mean a sort of aesthetic or romantic love. Philia signifies the intimate love between friends, a reciprocal love, where we love because we are loved. But the love King advocates is best expressed in the Greek word agape. Agape implies understanding. It intimates a "creative, redeeming goodwill for all, an overflowing love which seeks nothing in return. Agape is not a weak, passive love. It is love in action." Thus explained, agape comes very close to the ideal of lokasangraham - action motivated ultimately by the holding together of the peoples of the world - the climax of the enunciation of karma yoga in Chapter 3 of the Bhagavad Gita. Through a profound inversion of Nietzsche's critique of Christianity, King provides a reconceptualisation of the relationship between power and love. Nietzsche sought to determine the conditions of a new affirmation of life by overcoming what he regarded as the nihilistic despair produced by Christian values. King interrogates the very terms of this problematique by providing a radical restatement of his own spiritual tradition. He questions the legacy of viewing love and power as polar opposites, where love appears as a rescinding of power, and power as a rejection of love. This again is similar to the case against sanyaas (abdication of action) in the Bhagavad Gita. King argues that "power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anaemic." And this new understanding of power helps King positively formulate the unbreakable bond between love and justice: "power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love." Love must necessarily take on the larger structures of injustice that stand in its way. This love includes but goes well beyond isolated acts of kindness. At the same time, because love is our weapon, we do not seek to defeat anyone and must try not to end up humiliating those positioned against us. For the struggle is not against persons, it is for transformation of the opponent's view and the system of oppression. And even more for the self-renewal of those who work for change. As King says, "to retaliate with hate and bitterness would do nothing but intensify the hate in the world. Along the way of life, someone must have sense enough and morality enough to cut off the chain of hate. This can be done only by projecting the ethics of love to the centre of our lives." Such an organic link between inner transformation of the individual and larger social change is invariably missing in our politics. But there is more. In our pursuit of structural change we cannot overlook the immediacy and enormity of suffering. Sadly, this has been the record of many movements for justice. The millennial quest, based on various teleological certainties of the dynamic of History (with a capital H), has often led to people being treated as cannon fodder. The finiteness of their life-times appears to have little import for leaders who ineluctably belong to classes quite distinct from those who suffer injustice. As a result, the desperation for finding tangible solutions appears much less evident in leaders than for the masses they lead. We are confronted with a paradox. Narrow preoccupation with daily issues results, for example, in the sterile "economism" of the working class. But the quest for millennial goals of a distant Shangri-la means a striking lack of concern for real-time solutions and an unyielding "protest for the sake of protest." The former reflects a complete absence of broader vision, the latter a cruel neglect of immediate anguish. The challenge of creative politics is to strike an imaginative balance between the two, without disadvantaging either. We must stop viewing conflict as an arena of our victory over the "other." It is better regarded as a problem in search of a solution. A conflict needs not so much a victory, as a resolution. Indeed, a "defeat" that moves society forward on the moral landscape, that empowers the disadvantaged and sensitises those in power, deepening democracy in the process, could even be preferred to a "victory" that fails to achieve any of these. A key to moving forward in this direction is to give up the antediluvian unitary and insurrectionist conception of Revolution (with a capital R). The unique appeal of "scientific socialism" was its claim to have discovered the "laws of motion of society" that predicted the inexorable coming of a new dawn. This teleology has ended up becoming the chief weakness of Marxism. If change is visualised in these terms, means-ends questions will be run roughshod over and horrors of the Stalinist kind will continue to be perpetrated. Indeed, it would appear that without fana or annihilation of the ego as expounded in Sufi theosophy, without an outpouring of agape love that Martin Luther King evoked, movement towards a more just social order will remain a delusion. Spiritual standpoint Such a spiritual standpoint finds strong support in recent advances in Neuroscience and Economics, both of which have traditionally been bastions of selfishness as the central motive of human behaviour. Neurobiologists like Donald Pfaff marshal a new understanding of genes, neuronal activity and brain circuitry to explain our concern for the other. The path-breaking work of economists like Samuel Bowles questions standard textbook assumptions of the selfish homo economicus and emphasises the role of altruism in the very survival of humankind in the difficult years ahead. A one-track, single-event notion of revolution must also be discarded because it leads to complete neglect of crucial nitty-gritty detail that forms the heart of the transformation we dream of. It is this dry spadework that also contains solutions to immediate distress. Running mid-day meals in schools under active supervision of mothers, local people managing sanitation and drinking water systems, social audits in vibrant gram sabhas, participatory planning for watershed works, women leading federations of self-help thrift groups and workers running industrially safe, non-polluting factories as participant shareholders - all these and many more are the immediate, unfinished, feasible tasks of an ongoing struggle for change. Unfortunately, activists typically push these questions into a hazy future, to be all answered after the revolution, so to speak. One of the greatest weaknesses of the socialist project in the 20th century was its failure to flesh out the details of possible alternatives to a capitalist society. These are difficult questions that necessitate intricate answers. And we need to begin looking for these here and now, in the living laboratories of learning of our farms and factories, villages and slums. Not in some imaginary distant future after a fictitious insurrection. Why do we forget that this love in action for justice constitutes a large part of the change that we must still dare to dream of? (The writer is a social activist living and working for the last two decades with the Adivasis of central India.) From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Oct 22 21:43:43 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:43:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810200754p45c702dcp1c0ddf04a9c8509a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200659g473d0146m7ab7e387bc609b79@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810200754p45c702dcp1c0ddf04a9c8509a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810220913t63efaa42w273f749c9dc98f8a@mail.gmail.com> There are literally thousands of subcastes in India, often with particular geographical ranges, occupational specializations, and an administrative or corporate structure. When Mahâtmâ Gandhi wanted to go to England to study law, he had to ask his subcaste, the Modh Bania, for permission to leave India. ("Bania", means "merchant," and "Gandhi" means "greengrocer" -- from gandha, "smell, fragrance," in Sanskrit -- and that should be enough for a good guess that Gandhi was a Vaishya.) Sometimes it is denied that the varn.as are "castes" because, while "true" castes, the jâtis, are based on birth, the varn.as are based on the theory of the gun.as (the "three powers" mentioned in the Gita). This is no more than a rationalization: the varn.as came first, and they are based on birth. The gun.as came later, and provide a poor explanation anyway, since the gun.a tamas is associated with both twice born and once born, caste and outcaste, overlapping the most important religious and social divisions in the system. Nevertheless, the varn.as are now divisions at a theoretical level, while the jâtis are the way in which caste is embodied for most practical purposes. Jâtis themselves can be ranked in relation to each other, and occasionally a question may even be raised about the proper varn.a to which a particular jâti belongs. As jâti members change occupations and they rise in prestige, a jâti may rarely even be elevated in the varn.a to which it is regarded as belonging. See http://www.friesian.com/caste.htm On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:24 PM, inder salim wrote: > > by the way. > > Chor Ganvar shudra pashu nari > yeh saab hai tadan kay adikari > > by Tulsi Dass > > ( thieves, ruffians, low caste, animals, women > these all deserve beating ) > > the fact, with other facts was often quoted by Kanshi Ram ji, the > great leader of low caste hindus in india, after Dr. Baba saheb > Ambedkar ( the architect of Indian Constitution ) > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > > You might want to read the Annihilation of Caste: > > http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/ > > > > best > > shivam > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > >> The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > >> > >> SECTION – I > >> > >> Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > >> > >> "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > >> sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > >> not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > >> Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > >> Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > >> with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > >> humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > >> system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > >> Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > >> amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > >> universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > >> commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > >> Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > >> declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > >> are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > >> men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > >> 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > >> to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > >> Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > >> Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > >> united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > >> > >> Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > >> that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > >> number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > >> creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) > >> reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > >> and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > >> resides in him. > >> > >> Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's > >> profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > >> based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > >> a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > >> Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > >> Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > >> specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > >> attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > >> every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > >> every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > >> individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > >> Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > >> belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > >> differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > >> the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > >> caste system or birth based caste system. > >> Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > >> for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > >> recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > >> role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > >> akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > >> whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > >> Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > >> over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > >> > >> "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > >> allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > >> Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > >> Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > >> codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > >> wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > >> but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > >> war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > >> worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > >> which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > >> days as compared to other civilizations. > >> > >> It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > >> rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > >> census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > >> kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > >> castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > >> Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > >> it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > >> process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > >> more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > >> word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and > >> used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > >> in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > >> sometime in 1800 AD." > >> > >> Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > >> Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > >> reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > >> caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > >> each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > >> together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > >> into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > >> professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > >> the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > >> This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > >> Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > >> Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > >> and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > >> missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > >> and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > >> practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > >> Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > >> only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > >> Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called > >> Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > >> term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > >> missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > >> illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > >> fraudulent methods. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 22:13:57 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:13:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reservation on the moon In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810220753l38b044a9k2706a865282c5785@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810220351w300d6fbax882c257b1486f6bd@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810220753l38b044a9k2706a865282c5785@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810220943s45cf8c50jde0cd72f5aa570c8@mail.gmail.com> Not me Shivam, we in our campaign for equality, justice and rights for all during the anti-caste based reservations campaign-II in 2006 didn't use such cheap means. Though I do remember receiving similar sms from a close friend named Shivam Vij :-) It was during those days that we met first...when you became the CJ for CNN-IBN. Instead of all this sms-baazi and division; we had just so many SC/ST/OBC members of student community protesting along with us shoulder in shoulder against caste based politics and caste based reservations. Shivam, you still need to brush up things from your mentor Ram Vilas Paswan, Mayawati, Laloo etc. And, we did recommend the *Prof. Purushottam Agrawal* model of MIRAA - for affirmative action. Check it here - http://www.unitedstudentsindia.com/blog/campaigns/affirmativeaction/ Our view:- United Students is *against* extension of caste based reservations to OBCs [Other Backward Classes]. *This is not to deny the continuing importance of caste in the Indian social order*. We accept that there exist gross inequalities in the Indian society. But *we don't agree with the assessment that caste is the ONLY factor of deprivation in India*. We believe that apart from caste considerations, *economic conditions*, *sex*, *quality of primary education* and *regional imbalances* are all significat factors of exclusion operating in our country. *After all, a child of x caste studying in a panchayat school in Jharkhand cannot be equated to a child of the same caste studying at an elite private institution in Delhi*. A child, of whatever caste, who grows up in a metropolitan environment automatically has greater access and a better idea of his choices as compared to a child who has grown up in a poor rural or tribal community.And *who can deny that in our society being a woman itself implies facing and surmounting myraid challenges, which seem to start operating from birth itself? * We envisage an affirmative action scheme which seeks to redress the various factors of exclusion working against an individual seeking admission to an institution of higher learning. *We want affirmative action schemes to target the individual citizen rather than social groups*. *Caste based quotas seem to only perpetuate the notion of caste in society rather than weakening and eventually eliminating it as a factor, as envisaged by the Constitution.** * US would like the government to *undertake a thorough study of the usefulness of caste-based quotas* since they were introduced in India. We would also like Affirmative Action schemes to be better designed and intrinsically fairer than flat caste-based quotas. *In this connection we welcome the following Affirmative Action Schemes:** * 1. *Multiple Index Related Affirmative Action [MIRAA]* - proposed by JNU academic *Prof. Purushottam Agrawal*, MIRAA awards points to applicants on the basis of their sex, caste, economic background, regional disparities, educational imbalances and their status of being a first generation learner. We believe that a scheme like this takes care of all the major factors of exclusion working in Indian society without compromising on the basic qualifications for pursuing a higher degree. Hope this helps. Love -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From vivek at sarai.net Thu Oct 23 01:07:17 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:07:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How to write about Africa: short order cartoonist needed Message-ID: <48FF80ED.2040906@sarai.net> On the first week of December, there will be a massive internet campaign to launch a series of How to Write about Africa Videos, similar to the Will.i.am Obama video on the internet. A lot of effort will be put into making the thing hit on youtube. The text will be read on screen by some African Hollywood celebrities. Several hundred thousand hits are expected. Maybe more. More details will be provided to those who express strong and coherent interest. I am looking for a creative and edgy cartoon artist/graphic designer/graphic novelist/artist who can do several panels or visual concepts for me based on the idea behind How to Write about Africa (http://www.granta.com/Magazine/92/How-to-Write-About-Africa). I am looking for stuff to cover fifteen pages or more. My idea would be somebody who can also lay out text, and design a beautiful short book, of no more than 30 pages. The book can have photos, cartoons, commentary, notes – am open to ideas. I am thinking about a book with beautiful thick paper; hardcover, something that is both a beautiful object and an interesting book. I need to have the book print ready in three weeks. So am looking for somebody who has the time to begin straightaway. My preference is for us to put the book together as a joint effort, and share the profits. I am happy to carry the print costs or share them. We can talk about pay and such. I am willing to be generous, and provide good incentives. The book will be sold and marketed online on a website. We will launch on the 25th of November, and which will be promoted by the youtube video. I would like the book to be as innovative and visual as possible in this short time. Funny is good. It does not have to conform to any easy conventions… I basically want to have a book printed and ready by the 1st week of December. Yes, mad, but possible. I am willing to pay a handsome fee for this work, and/or talk about a generous profit share. Also willing to share cover billing and website, blog and such links. I am willing to talk to any existing publishers who want to do this with me. I am also interested in producing a French, German and Dutch version of this over the next year I am looking for somebody who has their own strong ideas about how to pull off a graphic narrative that speaks to some of the issues in the essay without being “drowned” by the words in it. I prefer to have something that shows “the other side” of the usual Africa clichés. I don’t mind working with the person online over the next ten days to finish this off. The idea is to keep it simple. If you are interested, please send some brief sketches/ideas or a synopsis that we can work with. Send all ideas to chiqyleo at yahoo.co.uk Make sure to say on the subject line: How To Write About Africa Submission. Deadline. Friday October 24th… Binyavanga Wainaina Sterling Brown Professor Williams College Williamstown, Massachussetts From sanjeev.sinha69 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 01:30:05 2008 From: sanjeev.sinha69 at yahoo.com (sanjeev.sinha69 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:00:05 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 122 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1097881961-1224705510-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-501236283-@bxe104.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> I would like to know about the mining and steel industry in India and Asia. Thanks and regards, Sanjeev sinha. Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone Essar -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-request at sarai.net Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:43:55 To: Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 122 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Kashmir's people at centre stage (Hindu) (taraprakash) 2. Cutting off the chain of hate (taraprakash) 3. Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism ( Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:32:48 -0400 From: "taraprakash" Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir's people at centre stage (Hindu) To: "Sarai" Message-ID: <9592CB1973ED42718324B72401FE5B5E at tara> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kashmir's people at centre stage In less than four weeks' time, millions living in what is sometimes described as the most dangerous place on earth will make their way to polling stations stretching from the shadows of Siachen to the sun-baked plains of Samba. More than a few voices had called for deferring the elections until next summer, fearing that the still-raw wounds of the violence Jammu and Kashmir saw this summer could lead to a poor voter turnout and a verdict polarised along communal line s. Others were worried that terrorist violence, or an anti-election campaign by secessionists, could lead to more bloodshed. All these concerns are legitimate. But by ordering that elections to the State Legislative Assembly be held in time to avoid the imposition of central rule, the Election Commission of India has made a courageous and principled decision that places at centre stage the right of the people to shape their own future. Without doubt, the poll process will face many severe challenges before the seven-phase election is completed in December. But the fact that fear has not been allowed to derail democracy is something of a triumph in itself. For decades, elections in Jammu and Kashmir were used as instruments of some cause: to bring a particular party to power, for example, or for demonstrating the legitimacy of the State's accession to India. Ever since 1996, when democracy returned to the State after an extended breakdown brought about by jihadist violence, elections have been cast as a tool for peacemaking. The ECI's decision underlines the fact that while elections may indeed yield desirable outcomes, this is not their raison d'étre. By making clear that democracy is not contingent on circumstance or result, the ECI has helped the healing of the dysfunctions that came to characterise J&K's political life because of the decades-old subversion of democracy. The elections will, moreover, make clear to political parties in Jammu and Kashmir that they - not New Delhi or for that matter Islamabad - are the principal architects of the State's destiny. Over the summer, the Congress-People's Democratic Party alliance government paid the price for the two partners' political opportunism and failure to challenge the forces of religious and ethnic chauvinism. Now, the people of the State will have the opportunity to assess that record and decide who might have the best vision for the future. In 1996 and 2002, terrorist violence claimed the lives of almost 200 political workers from most major parties, who put their lives on the line to campaign for their beliefs. Ensuring that there will be an elected government in Jammu and Kashmir before the New Year is a fitting tribute to that sacrifice. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:49:37 -0400 From: "taraprakash" Subject: [Reader-list] Cutting off the chain of hate To: "Sarai" Message-ID: <5D69FB00698649F4A585D3FC889E9576 at tara> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cutting off the chain of hate Mihir Shah Martin Luther King's profound inversion of Nietzsche's critique of Christianity is a beacon of light for all those who still dream of making a change in the world. If injustice is a large fact of the world we live in, so is hate. And there is no surprise here. For, the very intensity of injustice provokes anger. Which fuels hate. Capitalism has created unimaginable material prosperity for millions. But hunger and distress remain widespread. The early years of the 21st century have seen hungry people rioting in 37 countries. Eighty per cent of the world's population still lives below the international poverty line. The World Ba nk speaks of an almost unnoticed "silent famine" enveloping large parts of the globe. Adding hurt to this absolute distress are widening disparities. A recent World Bank study reveals that between 1820 and 1992, the income share of the bottom 60 per cent of the world's population halved to around 10 per cent, while the share of the top 10 per cent rose to more than 50 per cent. A United Nations report covering the period 1950-1998, also reveals growing inequalities within nations. These inequalities revolve around multiple axes of class, community, region, religion and gender. Religion has emerged as a central axis of conflict. Violence as a response to perceived injustice is on the rise, reflecting in part the failure of democracies to function effectively across the world. The fruits of India's own development have been shared very unequally, especially in certain geographies (Adivasi enclaves, drylands, hills) and with specific social groups (Dalits, Muslims). India witnessed the fastest growth of high networth individuals worldwide in 2007. In the "other India," across 200 districts, lakhs of people are either committing suicide or taking to the gun. Martin Luther King suggests a different response to injustice - the path of love. But the love he spoke of was no ordinary love. In an essay written in 1957, King elaborated the very different meanings of three words for love in the Greek New Testament. Eros, in Platonic philosophy, means the yearning of the soul for the realm of the divine. It has come now to mean a sort of aesthetic or romantic love. Philia signifies the intimate love between friends, a reciprocal love, where we love because we are loved. But the love King advocates is best expressed in the Greek word agape. Agape implies understanding. It intimates a "creative, redeeming goodwill for all, an overflowing love which seeks nothing in return. Agape is not a weak, passive love. It is love in action." Thus explained, agape comes very close to the ideal of lokasangraham - action motivated ultimately by the holding together of the peoples of the world - the climax of the enunciation of karma yoga in Chapter 3 of the Bhagavad Gita. Through a profound inversion of Nietzsche's critique of Christianity, King provides a reconceptualisation of the relationship between power and love. Nietzsche sought to determine the conditions of a new affirmation of life by overcoming what he regarded as the nihilistic despair produced by Christian values. King interrogates the very terms of this problematique by providing a radical restatement of his own spiritual tradition. He questions the legacy of viewing love and power as polar opposites, where love appears as a rescinding of power, and power as a rejection of love. This again is similar to the case against sanyaas (abdication of action) in the Bhagavad Gita. King argues that "power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anaemic." And this new understanding of power helps King positively formulate the unbreakable bond between love and justice: "power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love." Love must necessarily take on the larger structures of injustice that stand in its way. This love includes but goes well beyond isolated acts of kindness. At the same time, because love is our weapon, we do not seek to defeat anyone and must try not to end up humiliating those positioned against us. For the struggle is not against persons, it is for transformation of the opponent's view and the system of oppression. And even more for the self-renewal of those who work for change. As King says, "to retaliate with hate and bitterness would do nothing but intensify the hate in the world. Along the way of life, someone must have sense enough and morality enough to cut off the chain of hate. This can be done only by projecting the ethics of love to the centre of our lives." Such an organic link between inner transformation of the individual and larger social change is invariably missing in our politics. But there is more. In our pursuit of structural change we cannot overlook the immediacy and enormity of suffering. Sadly, this has been the record of many movements for justice. The millennial quest, based on various teleological certainties of the dynamic of History (with a capital H), has often led to people being treated as cannon fodder. The finiteness of their life-times appears to have little import for leaders who ineluctably belong to classes quite distinct from those who suffer injustice. As a result, the desperation for finding tangible solutions appears much less evident in leaders than for the masses they lead. We are confronted with a paradox. Narrow preoccupation with daily issues results, for example, in the sterile "economism" of the working class. But the quest for millennial goals of a distant Shangri-la means a striking lack of concern for real-time solutions and an unyielding "protest for the sake of protest." The former reflects a complete absence of broader vision, the latter a cruel neglect of immediate anguish. The challenge of creative politics is to strike an imaginative balance between the two, without disadvantaging either. We must stop viewing conflict as an arena of our victory over the "other." It is better regarded as a problem in search of a solution. A conflict needs not so much a victory, as a resolution. Indeed, a "defeat" that moves society forward on the moral landscape, that empowers the disadvantaged and sensitises those in power, deepening democracy in the process, could even be preferred to a "victory" that fails to achieve any of these. A key to moving forward in this direction is to give up the antediluvian unitary and insurrectionist conception of Revolution (with a capital R). The unique appeal of "scientific socialism" was its claim to have discovered the "laws of motion of society" that predicted the inexorable coming of a new dawn. This teleology has ended up becoming the chief weakness of Marxism. If change is visualised in these terms, means-ends questions will be run roughshod over and horrors of the Stalinist kind will continue to be perpetrated. Indeed, it would appear that without fana or annihilation of the ego as expounded in Sufi theosophy, without an outpouring of agape love that Martin Luther King evoked, movement towards a more just social order will remain a delusion. Spiritual standpoint Such a spiritual standpoint finds strong support in recent advances in Neuroscience and Economics, both of which have traditionally been bastions of selfishness as the central motive of human behaviour. Neurobiologists like Donald Pfaff marshal a new understanding of genes, neuronal activity and brain circuitry to explain our concern for the other. The path-breaking work of economists like Samuel Bowles questions standard textbook assumptions of the selfish homo economicus and emphasises the role of altruism in the very survival of humankind in the difficult years ahead. A one-track, single-event notion of revolution must also be discarded because it leads to complete neglect of crucial nitty-gritty detail that forms the heart of the transformation we dream of. It is this dry spadework that also contains solutions to immediate distress. Running mid-day meals in schools under active supervision of mothers, local people managing sanitation and drinking water systems, social audits in vibrant gram sabhas, participatory planning for watershed works, women leading federations of self-help thrift groups and workers running industrially safe, non-polluting factories as participant shareholders - all these and many more are the immediate, unfinished, feasible tasks of an ongoing struggle for change. Unfortunately, activists typically push these questions into a hazy future, to be all answered after the revolution, so to speak. One of the greatest weaknesses of the socialist project in the 20th century was its failure to flesh out the details of possible alternatives to a capitalist society. These are difficult questions that necessitate intricate answers. And we need to begin looking for these here and now, in the living laboratories of learning of our farms and factories, villages and slums. Not in some imaginary distant future after a fictitious insurrection. Why do we forget that this love in action for justice constitutes a large part of the change that we must still dare to dream of? (The writer is a social activist living and working for the last two decades with the Adivasis of central India.) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:43:43 +0530 From: " Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism To: "inder salim" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Message-ID: <9c06aab30810220913t63efaa42w273f749c9dc98f8a at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There are literally thousands of subcastes in India, often with particular geographical ranges, occupational specializations, and an administrative or corporate structure. When Mahâtmâ Gandhi wanted to go to England to study law, he had to ask his subcaste, the Modh Bania, for permission to leave India. ("Bania", means "merchant," and "Gandhi" means "greengrocer" -- from gandha, "smell, fragrance," in Sanskrit -- and that should be enough for a good guess that Gandhi was a Vaishya.) Sometimes it is denied that the varn.as are "castes" because, while "true" castes, the jâtis, are based on birth, the varn.as are based on the theory of the gun.as (the "three powers" mentioned in the Gita). This is no more than a rationalization: the varn.as came first, and they are based on birth. The gun.as came later, and provide a poor explanation anyway, since the gun.a tamas is associated with both twice born and once born, caste and outcaste, overlapping the most important religious and social divisions in the system. Nevertheless, the varn.as are now divisions at a theoretical level, while the jâtis are the way in which caste is embodied for most practical purposes. Jâtis themselves can be ranked in relation to each other, and occasionally a question may even be raised about the proper varn.a to which a particular jâti belongs. As jâti members change occupations and they rise in prestige, a jâti may rarely even be elevated in the varn.a to which it is regarded as belonging. See http://www.friesian.com/caste.htm On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:24 PM, inder salim wrote: > > by the way. > > Chor Ganvar shudra pashu nari > yeh saab hai tadan kay adikari > > by Tulsi Dass > > ( thieves, ruffians, low caste, animals, women > these all deserve beating ) > > the fact, with other facts was often quoted by Kanshi Ram ji, the > great leader of low caste hindus in india, after Dr. Baba saheb > Ambedkar ( the architect of Indian Constitution ) > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > > You might want to read the Annihilation of Caste: > > http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/ambedkar/ > > > > best > > shivam > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > >> The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > >> > >> SECTION – I > >> > >> Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > >> > >> "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > >> sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > >> not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > >> Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > >> Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > >> with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > >> humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > >> system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > >> Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > >> amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > >> universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > >> commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > >> Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > >> declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > >> are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > >> men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > >> 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > >> to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > >> Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > >> Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > >> united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > >> > >> Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > >> that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > >> number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > >> creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) > >> reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > >> and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > >> resides in him. > >> > >> Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's > >> profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > >> based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > >> a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > >> Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > >> Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > >> specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > >> attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > >> every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > >> every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > >> individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > >> Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > >> belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > >> differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > >> the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > >> caste system or birth based caste system. > >> Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > >> for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > >> recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > >> role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > >> akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > >> whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > >> Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > >> over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > >> > >> "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > >> allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > >> Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > >> Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > >> codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > >> wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > >> but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > >> war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > >> worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > >> which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > >> days as compared to other civilizations. > >> > >> It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > >> rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > >> census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > >> kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > >> castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > >> Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > >> it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > >> process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > >> more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > >> word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and > >> used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > >> in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > >> sometime in 1800 AD." > >> > >> Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > >> Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > >> reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > >> caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > >> each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > >> together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > >> into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > >> professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > >> the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > >> This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > >> Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > >> Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > >> and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > >> missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > >> and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > >> practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > >> Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > >> only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > >> Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called > >> Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > >> term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > >> missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > >> illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > >> fraudulent methods. > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 122 ******************************************** From vivek at sarai.net Thu Oct 23 01:39:19 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:39:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] That mysterious culture software Message-ID: <48FF886F.8010902@sarai.net> An excerpt from a recent column by Wainana. This shouldn't be news to us, but the conceptions of culture he parodies remind me exactly of how many on this list speak of culture. Hmmmm............... Vivek To make a king BINYAVANGA WAINAINA: CONTINETAL DRIFT - Sep 23 2008 http://www.mg.co.za/article/2008-09-24-to-make-a-king I was travelling in Uganda a few months ago and walked into a bookstore in a small town near the Rwanda border and bought a school history text. As we drove towards Rwanda, I browsed it. It was a familiar text -- we had studied it in school. The book suggested that the Tutsi were a mysterious and special people. Very tall and elegant, they had been thought to be ancient Phoenicians -- the book mentions casually -- then says this idea was debunked. They glided effortlessly and superiorly down from the North, with longhorned cattle. They carried with them a sort of vague cultural Kingdom-forming software, which they applied wherever they went. When I was in school, we learned that before colonialism we lived inside our cultures. Like tortoises. Those cultures had characteristics, things you could list like bullet points: nomads, banana-growers. Before tribes came, there were hunter-gatherers, who disappeared into holes in the ground. The tribes landed from the Nile Valley and from the Congo basin. These tribes spoke languages that were related to one another. After some migrations and wars, the tribes settled comfortably in the school maps and waited for colonialism, independence and the visionary ideas of new leaders to come. At some point, somewhere -- page 13 maybe, the world changed -- and ideas and brains mysteriously appeared in our universe. Mercantilism, communism, Islam. Some of these ideas were bad. Colonialism, imperialism. Some were good. Education. Erm … hygiene. Nationalism. The history book changes and becomes a work of biography of individuals who built the continent. Kenya becomes Kenyatta. So, inside my head are these images of people wandering down the Nile valley like the wildebeest from the Serengeti. Each tribal citizen is surrounded by a large bubble called language culture. Inside language culture elders run around a 400m track called ritual -- and when they are tired they pass the baton down to the New Age set. This baton contains a software program called WISDOM -- which is passed down from generation to generation. Nobody knows who invented it. Wisdom is not a creation of a thinking man -- it is a silent and sullen gizmo. It just works. When a new generation wears it, presto, their limbs and manner change and they become traditional leaders. Human will and intelligence do not play much of a role in any of these transactions. So we become cultural botanists: looking for characteristics -- and registering them and remaking them for the purposes of wearing traditional clothes at the Beijing Olympics, the Reed Dance or encouraging cultural tourism, or strategising for post electoral violence. Cultural tourism is sort of like eco-tourism: people, plants and animals are arranged into a dutiful ecology. A performance. CONTINUES BELOW After we have learned about ourselves like this, it becomes easy to say things like: "This is not true Africa." "This is not African." "According to African culture." We can move from one conversation where ideas are shared, into one where ideas are bounced against culture, which we have come to see as a thing without a brain. It is never a world view, or an engagement with time and space by thinking, breathing, interacting human beings. We start to become museums of ourselves. We rush about making exhibitions of our culture. In the absence of self-understanding that can stand the test of our times, we speak of our neighbours as cultural artefacts, whose fate is decided by their immovable and unthinking stereotypes. From vivek at sarai.net Thu Oct 23 02:43:06 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 02:43:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How to write about Africa: short order cartoonist needed In-Reply-To: <48FF80ED.2040906@sarai.net> References: <48FF80ED.2040906@sarai.net> Message-ID: <48FF9762.6060604@sarai.net> Please note that this note below was written by Binyavanga Wainana and not myself! Sorry for any initial confusion caused. V. Binyavanga Wainana wrote: > On the first week of December, there will be a massive internet campaign > to launch a series of How to Write about Africa Videos, similar to the > Will.i.am Obama video on the internet. A lot of effort will be put into > making the thing hit on youtube. The text will be read on screen by some > African Hollywood celebrities. Several hundred thousand hits are > expected. Maybe more. More details will be provided to those who express > strong and coherent interest. > > I am looking for a creative and edgy cartoon artist/graphic > designer/graphic novelist/artist who can do several panels or visual > concepts for me based on the idea behind How to Write about Africa > (http://www.granta.com/Magazine/92/How-to-Write-About-Africa). I am > looking for stuff to cover fifteen pages or more. > > My idea would be somebody who can also lay out text, and design a > beautiful short book, of no more than 30 pages. The book can have > photos, cartoons, commentary, notes – am open to ideas. I am thinking > about a book with beautiful thick paper; hardcover, something that is > both a beautiful object and an interesting book. > > I need to have the book print ready in three weeks. So am looking for > somebody who has the time to begin straightaway. > > My preference is for us to put the book together as a joint effort, and > share the profits. I am happy to carry the print costs or share them. We > can talk about pay and such. I am willing to be generous, and provide > good incentives. > > The book will be sold and marketed online on a website. We will launch > on the 25th of November, and which will be promoted by the youtube video. > > I would like the book to be as innovative and visual as possible in this > short time. Funny is good. It does not have to conform to any easy > conventions… > > I basically want to have a book printed and ready by the 1st week of > December. Yes, mad, but possible. > > I am willing to pay a handsome fee for this work, and/or talk about a > generous profit share. Also willing to share cover billing and website, > blog and such links. I am willing to talk to any existing publishers who > want to do this with me. > > I am also interested in producing a French, German and Dutch version of > this over the next year > > I am looking for somebody who has their own strong ideas about how to > pull off a graphic narrative that speaks to some of the issues in the > essay without being “drowned” by the words in it. I prefer to have > something that shows “the other side” of the usual Africa clichés. > > I don’t mind working with the person online over the next ten days to > finish this off. The idea is to keep it simple. > > If you are interested, please send some brief sketches/ideas or a > synopsis that we can work with. > > Send all ideas to chiqyleo at yahoo.co.uk Make sure to say on the subject > line: How To Write About Africa Submission. > > Deadline. Friday October 24th… > > Binyavanga Wainaina > Sterling Brown Professor > Williams College > Williamstown, Massachussetts > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 07:55:01 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:25:01 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Court for body to regulate Muslim marriages Message-ID: <8AF43BB4F6354FD7ACB5E86D84333E9E@tara> Court for body to regulate Muslim marriages -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Says no system to check ‘indiscreet divorce’ Appeals all concerned to study the problem -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KOCHI: A Division Bench of the Kerala High Court on Wednesday observed that legislation for setting up bodies at Central and regional levels to regulate, control and supervise Muslim marriages and divorces was the need of the hour. The Bench of Justice Kurian Joseph and Justice Harun-Ul-Rashid, while passing a verdict in a matrimonial case involving a Muslim couple, said an effective system should be introduced for protecting the Muslim society and women from “indiscreet marriage and divorce.” The court observed that though polygamy was allowed in the strict sense by Islam, there was no system in India to supervise or control such indiscreet marriage and divorce. Going by Koranic verses, permission to marry more than one woman, but not more than four, was given at a time when there were lots of orphans, widows and captives of war who were unable to maintain a dignified life. Polygamy was allowed then due to unavoidable circumstances. In fact, the practice was discouraged by imposing stringent conditions. The court observed that even after 15th century, some people of the community seemed to be very particular in following the practice, unmindful of whether such circumstances existed or not. They entered into more than one marriage, mostly for their personal pleasure. The court said polygamy was unlawful in the country. It called for strong moral strength, if not religious factor, to eradicate polygamy from among the Muslims. The court said there was no system in the country to ascertain and decide whether a person was eligible to contract more than one marriage during the subsistence of the first marriage. Men in the community enjoyed unrestricted freedom to marry women of their choice and pronounce talaq according to their whims and fancies. In fact, most of such marriages were illegal since they were against Koranic injunctions. The court pointed out that in Pakistan, Muslim family law regulated polygamy and provided for an arbitration council. As per the laws in Muslim countries such as Iraq, the husband must satisfy the court the reasons for divorce. These provisions were intended to regulate marriage and supervise its sanctity. The Bench appealed to all concerned within the community and the administrative authority and the government to study the problems faced by “helpless and destitute women and children” and bestow thoughts on the ways and means to alleviate their problems. © Copyright 2000 - 2008 The Hindu From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 09:50:44 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:50:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CPIM tried to distrupt the hearing at athirapilly by Assembly commitee on Environment Message-ID: <35f96d470810222120j60916bedpe6bbef17dc4557af@mail.gmail.com> Uproarious scenes at hearing on Athirappilly hydel project Staff Reporter, The Hindu http://www.thehindu.com/2008/10/23/stories/2008102352290300.htm CPI(M) MLAs in the Assembly Committee stay away from hearing — Photo: By Special Arrangement UP IN ARMS: CPI(M) workers trying to disrupt a hearing on the proposed Athirappilly hydro-electric project held at Athirappilly on Wednesday. Athirappilly (Thrissur dist): A hearing on the 163 MW Athirappilly hydroelectric project by the Assembly Committee on Environment held at the Panchayat Hall here on Wednesday witnessed uproarious scenes. When the hearing began, the Communist Party of India (Marxist) workers shouted slogans against groups that opposed the hydel project. The committee recorded the opinions of a few people and obtained information on environmental impact of the project. The hearing was stopped later following slogan-shouting and counter slogan-shouting between CPI(M) workers and anti-dam activists. Rajaji Mathew Thomas, chairman of the committee, and members M.V. Shreyams Kumar, V. D. Satheesan and Roshy Augustine, MLAs, took part. CPI(M) MLAs in the committee B.D. Devassy, M. Hamsa, K.V. Abdul Khader and A.M. Yusuf stayed off the hearing. Anti-dam groups alleged that the four MLAs held a secret meeting at Chalakudy and decided not to participate in the hearing. T.U. Kuruvila, a member of the committee, too did not attend the hearing. The proposed Athirappilly hydel project is the seventh dam to be built across the 145.5-km Chalakudy river, the fifth largest in the State. The Union Ministry of Environment and Forest (MoEF) cleared the project on July 18, 2007, triggering protests by environmentalists. In 1998, the Ministry had cleared the project without the mandatory public hearing. The Kerala High Court, on October 17, 2001, directed the Kerala State Electricity Board and the MoEF to fulfil procedures for environmental clearance, including a public hearing. A public hearing was held at the Thrissur Town Hall on February 6, 2002. The project was again cleared by the MoEF on February 10, 2005, on the basis of a report by Water and Power Consultancy Services (India) Limited (WAPCOS). On March 23, 2006, the Kerala High Court quashed the clearance and ordered another public hearing. A public hearing held at the Gopalakrishna Auditorium, Chalakudy, on June 15, 2002, drew protests against the proposed dam. The Expert Committee on River Valley Projects, led by P.G. Sastri, visited Athirappilly on April 12, 2007. The techno-economic sanction granted by the Centre expired on March 31, 2008. Three cases filed in the Kerala High Court against the project are pending. Environmentalists contend that the proposed project has several disadvantages, including destruction of forest land that is home to rare flora and fauna; ecological problems caused by submergence of the only remaining riparian forests at such altitude in the entire Western Ghats; damage to the vital elephant corridor between the Parambikulam sanctuary and the Pooyamkutty forests and the Athirappilly waterfalls; displacement of Kadar tribesmen; depletion of irrigation and drinking water resources in 19 panchayats and two municipalities. -- Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown Free Software industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds. From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 10:07:00 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <996255.56360.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Shivam,   You might be naughty or whatever for, >>>Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea,   I pity for your state of mind,thinking and lack of knowledge for the above. If we take the line from the Sanskrit sloka which stands for any time       KARYESHU DASI, KARANESHU MANTRI     BHOJYESHU MATAA, SAYENESHU RAMBHA     RUPECHA LAKSHMI,KSHAMAYA DHARITRI     SHATKARMAYUKTA, KULADHARMAPATNI     1)"Kshamaya Dharitri"    which means forgiveness is the phenomenon and characteristic of the EARTH which is stated before CHRIST.  2) Women in this context INDIAN/HINDU(if i think narrowly like others as per current trends) are compared to EARTH for forgiveness.  It is the culture injected into the souls by families/parents since ages. This kind of attitude keeps one in safe and creates peace in lives. After reading this and you are watching the present society, I hope no body will raise questions like         a) What happen if woman are not like that,       b) Why should woman be like that.       To condemn you or any other half knowledge/baked persons about history/language, one need not belong to RSS.  INDIA contain so many knowledgeable persons in several political parties and systems.    P:S:  ISRO Madhavan Nair offered prayers/pooja to maata/devi, before the launch of           Chandrayan-1 yesterday for the success. Regards, Dhatri. --- On Wed, 10/22/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: From: Shivam Vij शिवम् Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 5:51 PM Pawan sahab, I prostrate before thee. Forgive me! forgive me! forgive me! Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea, I assure you I am not trying to coerce you into converting by asking for forgiveness. Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Vande Matram! Vande Matram! Vande Matram! Ek dhakka aur do! (Marching straight to an RSS camp.) On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shivam, > > You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular > direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which > generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates > hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is > Kashmiri Pandits.You are also well known for your habit of loving to hate > Kashmiri Pandits. > > Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and > you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists. > > I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations in > any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra. > > If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being > misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential as > a journalist. > > The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am based > in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab India > and have few admirers in this EXPRESS. > > Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ? > > You misleader > > Pawan > > > > > On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a >> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. >> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% >> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? >> >> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country , >> so >> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >> disinformation >> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being >> followed >> > more closely. >> > >> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their links >> > ascertained. >> > >> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >> > >> > >> > >> > Pawan >> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >> > >> > >> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> >> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >> >> when they will join the mainstream? >> >> >> >> best >> >> shivam >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >> >> > By M.V. Kamath >> >> > >> >> > Organiser >> >> > >> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from the >> >> > Indian mainstream. >> >> > >> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only alienate >> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >> >> > >> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is bad >> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >> >> > then whose fault is it. >> >> > >> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >> >> > >> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, if >> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >> >> > >> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number of >> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth to >> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, four >> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >> >> > >> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and allied >> >> > religions. >> >> > >> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth to >> >> > win their favour. >> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >> >> > only seven could succeed. >> >> > >> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom themselves >> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >> >> > you want to stay separate. >> >> > >> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >> >> > >> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to adhere >> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. An >> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary Muslims >> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >> >> > >> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >> >> > >> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >> >> > shunned like the very devil. >> >> > >> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs to >> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. Sareh >> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >> >> > >> >> > 150&page=12 --- >> >> > ...................................................................... >> >> > .................................... >> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >> >> > Mayank Patel >> >> > >> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >> >> > reconciliation. >> >> > >> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of Indian >> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >> >> > >> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that election. >> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >> >> > >> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >> >> > >> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also certain >> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >> >> > >> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this alleged >> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >> >> > >> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >> >> > >> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >> >> > >> >> > Related story: >> >> > >> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >> >> > http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >> >> > e2%80%93-history/ >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> > > -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From hiddenbuthere at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 18:20:50 2008 From: hiddenbuthere at gmail.com (Real Unreal) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:20:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: looks my dear friend this all discussion on the list on different topics is not doing one good thing, it exposes the hidden intentions of participants. besides this what is like is that people should take about their intense personal lives. which they will not. all they do is ' representation' of this or that. hindu , muslim, kashmiri, bengali, etc etc, this sometimes is boring for me. but since nothing is happening around, so let it be. i enjoy reading this and that. your choice of slangs ( gali ) is bascially about our real intentions again. now see Adiyta sahib can not write the way you write. he writes on the list as if it a havan puja, so can not see the small wet erection under dothi of the pandit shouting mantras. you are free from that. but can we return to the language which is actually in use out there. now see how much chootiya, behenchod ( sister fucker ) is around but we never hear that on the list, as if it is prohibited. may be if everybody uses that kind of language, the sponsors might be close it down. anyway, by let us be chootiya, by not using chootiya so often, what is important here, to my mind is that we need not look like those journalists who talk decent in the newspapers, but when they meet in private spaces and use some other language and if it is the same, then we have better articles on all subjects, in the print media out there why we need the list, if we can not use slangs publicly, who is afraid of being known as chootiya in the LIst. we all chootiyas, let us declare it first and then debate the serious issues, in a very funny way. you need not agree ru On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > RL, > > Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, though I am moderately > proficient in Hindi, I can't follow quite a it of what you say, > probably because its in the Roman script and I can't associate it with > words that are actually known to me. I do understand some, but not > all. I think I understand the first sentence, in which you seem to say > that I have a clean heart. I must thank you for your kind words if my > interpretation is correct. On this assumption, I am curious to know > what it is in my writing that brought you to such a positive > conclusion about me. > > Please do not hesitate to let me know if my interpretation is wrong, > and you meant something less flattering. I will not mind at all. > Yesterday, another list member wrote offlist, in very indirect terms, > that he didn't like the present tone of my posts. I asked him to > clarify, assuring him that I would not be offended. He took my word > for it and told me what he meant. I explained why I was writing what I > was writing, apologising for the discomfort I had caused, and I think > he was surprised by my reaction. > > The point of this long paragraph is to assure you that you can tell me > whatever you want - positive, negative, neutral, downright "gali", > etc. - in English, so that I understand. > > As for the messages you have posted on the list, I am a little > concerned that the many foreigners who are on the list will probably > feel left out by your Hindi/Urdu messages. I would urge you to > consider this. > > I will look forward to reading English translations of your posts ... > leaving out - on the list - things like "labda" that I seem to have > seen, and assume refers to what most of us know as the male genital. > But I would appreciate it if you would take the trouble to send me, > offlist, the "uncensored" version, as I shall definitely enjoy the > flavour, even if it is a "gali" meant for me. I love gali and have > enjoyed exchanging choice ones with my friends. > > Thanks again, > > Tapas > > > > 2008/10/19 Real Unreal : >> achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho, >> >> magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch zayada hi raita phala rahain hai >> >> bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko pila >> data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus >> gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi >> >> ru >> >> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>> It's just about Aditya. >>> >>> By the way, I love your chosen name. >>> >>> >>> 2008/10/18 Real Unreal : >>>> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a fragment of a >>>> large piece? >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>>>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. >>>>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) >>>>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning >>>>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and >>>>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey >>>>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket >>>>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I >>>>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : >>>>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you >>>>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. >>>>>> What can be worse ? >>>>>> >>>>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; >>>>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I >>>>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, >>>>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & >>>>>> CLEAR. Happy ??? >>>>>> >>>>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. >>>>>> >>>>>> Love >>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From hiddenbuthere at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 18:31:16 2008 From: hiddenbuthere at gmail.com (Real Unreal) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:31:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:30 PM, Real Unreal wrote: > looks my dear friend > > all this discussion on the list on different topics is doing one > good thing, it exposes the hidden intentions of participants. > > besides this, what i like is that people should talk about their > intense personal lives as well. which they obviously will not. all > they do is ' > representation' of this or that. which in the long run can turn them > into pretentious egoistic animals... > > hindu , muslim, kashmiri, bengali, artist, journalist... etc etc, this > sometimes is boring > for me. but since nothing is happening around, so let it be. > > i enjoy reading this and that. > > your choice of slangs ( gali ) is bascially about our real intentions > again. now see Adiyta sahib can not write the way you write. he writes > on the list as if it a 'havan' puja, so can not see the small wet > erection under dothi of the pandit shouting mantras. > > you are free from that. but can we return to the language which is > actually in use out there. > > now see how much chootiyapaniti..... and behenchodyat ( sister > fuckering ) is around but > we never hear that on the list, as if it is prohibited. > may be if everybody uses that kind of language, the sponsors might be > close it down. > > anyway, by let us be chootiya, by not using chootiya so often, > > what is important here, to my mind is that we need not look like those > journalists who talk decent in the newspapers, but when they meet in > private spaces and use some other language > > and if it is the same, then we have better articles on all subjects, > in the print media out there > > why we need the list, if we can not use slangs publicly, > > who is afraid of being known as chootiya in the LIst. we all > chootiyas, let us declare it first and then debate the serious issues, > in a very funny way. > > you need not agree > > lovingly > a chootiaya > ru > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >> RL, >> >> Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, though I am moderately >> proficient in Hindi, I can't follow quite a it of what you say, >> probably because its in the Roman script and I can't associate it with >> words that are actually known to me. I do understand some, but not >> all. I think I understand the first sentence, in which you seem to say >> that I have a clean heart. I must thank you for your kind words if my >> interpretation is correct. On this assumption, I am curious to know >> what it is in my writing that brought you to such a positive >> conclusion about me. >> >> Please do not hesitate to let me know if my interpretation is wrong, >> and you meant something less flattering. I will not mind at all. >> Yesterday, another list member wrote offlist, in very indirect terms, >> that he didn't like the present tone of my posts. I asked him to >> clarify, assuring him that I would not be offended. He took my word >> for it and told me what he meant. I explained why I was writing what I >> was writing, apologising for the discomfort I had caused, and I think >> he was surprised by my reaction. >> >> The point of this long paragraph is to assure you that you can tell me >> whatever you want - positive, negative, neutral, downright "gali", >> etc. - in English, so that I understand. >> >> As for the messages you have posted on the list, I am a little >> concerned that the many foreigners who are on the list will probably >> feel left out by your Hindi/Urdu messages. I would urge you to >> consider this. >> >> I will look forward to reading English translations of your posts ... >> leaving out - on the list - things like "labda" that I seem to have >> seen, and assume refers to what most of us know as the male genital. >> But I would appreciate it if you would take the trouble to send me, >> offlist, the "uncensored" version, as I shall definitely enjoy the >> flavour, even if it is a "gali" meant for me. I love gali and have >> enjoyed exchanging choice ones with my friends. >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Tapas >> >> >> >> 2008/10/19 Real Unreal : >>> achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho, >>> >>> magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch zayada hi raita phala rahain hai >>> >>> bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko pila >>> data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus >>> gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi >>> >>> ru >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>>> It's just about Aditya. >>>> >>>> By the way, I love your chosen name. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2008/10/18 Real Unreal : >>>>> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a fragment of a >>>>> large piece? >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>>>>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. >>>>>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) >>>>>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning >>>>>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and >>>>>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey >>>>>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket >>>>>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I >>>>>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : >>>>>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you >>>>>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. >>>>>>> What can be worse ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; >>>>>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I >>>>>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, >>>>>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & >>>>>>> CLEAR. Happy ??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Love >>>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > From info at fondation-langlois.org Thu Oct 23 02:08:33 2008 From: info at fondation-langlois.org (Fondation Daniel Langlois) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:38:33 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Daniel Langlois Foundation: 2008 International DOCAM Summit Message-ID: <880ab6fb97c6ba3c33a8286c001a0c39@fondation-langlois.org> 2008 International DOCAM Summit The Daniel Langlois Foundation for Art, Science, and Technology is pleased to announce that the fourth annual Summit of the DOCAM Research Alliance (Documentation and Conservation of the Media Arts Heritage, www.docam.ca) will be held in Montreal on October 30 and 31, 2008, at the Tanna Schulich Hall in the New Music Building at McGill University, 527 Sherbrooke Street West. The Summit will be preceded by a Symposium co-presented by Media at McGill and entitled "Media in Motion," scheduled for October 29, in the same building at McGill University (registration is required for the Symposium). During this fourth edition of the DOCAM Summit, many of the Alliance's researchers will deliver their results on a variety of case studies. Also, numerous speakers from Europe and North America, including Mona Jimenez from New York University, Rolf Wolfensberger from the Museum of Communication in Berne, Gaby Wijers of the Netherlands Media Art Institute, and Caroline Langill, a professor at the Ontario College of Art and Design, will participate in the Summit, as will a number of researchers associated with Europe's CASPAR project (Cultural, Artistic and Scientific knowledge for Preservation, Access and Retrieval). Topics will include the conservation, documentation, cataloguing and terminology of media artworks. To close the event, internationally renowned artist Antoni Muntadas will hold a keynote address on many of his creations, including The Board Room (National Gallery of Canada): http://www.docam.ca/en/?p=356 DOCAM is an international and multidisciplinary research alliance on the documentation and the conservation of the media arts heritage with the main objective of developing new methodologies and tools to address the issues of preserving and documenting digital, technological, and electronic works of art. The project is supported by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council (SSHRC) as part of its Community-University Research Alliances (CURA) program. Initiated by the Daniel Langlois Foundation, the DOCAM Research Alliance includes some 15 institutional partners, such as the National Gallery of Canada, the Musée d'art contemporain de Montréal, the Canadian Centre for Architecture, the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts, the Canadian Heritage Information Network, the faculties of many Canadian universities (including McGill, UQAM, Queen's and Université de Montréal), and international partners such as Leonardo and New York University. DOCAM also brings together more than 20 specialists and researchers in fields such as art conservation and restoration, cataloguing of museum collections, art history, information management, archival science, art documentation and computer science. From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Oct 22 13:24:50 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (JavaMuseum) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:54:50 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_call=3A_JavaMuse?= =?iso-8859-1?q?um_-_Netart_Features_2009?= Message-ID: <20081022095450.FCE6302C.8ABE24E1@192.168.0.3> JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org ---------------------------------- Call: Netart Features 2009 ---------------------------------- extended deadline: 31 December 2008 ---------------------------------- JavaMuseum founded in 2000 realized since 2001 more than 20 showcases of netart in a global context, and hosts a comprehensive collection of netart from the years 2000-2005. More on http://www.javamuseum.org/blog/?page_id=6 Also in 2009, JavaMuseum will continue its netart features. Artists working on the field of Internet based art are invited to submit up to 5 works completed after1 January 2005. The complete call, including regulations and entry form can be found here---> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=329 ------------------------------------ JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany ------------------------------------ info (at) javamuseum.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 13:02:03 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:02:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Made in Pakistan by Kamal Hak In-Reply-To: <6353c690810230025j975e9cdve3dbe9fa2de66ceb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810230025j975e9cdve3dbe9fa2de66ceb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810230032l37d9e555h247fc712b3ebeb24@mail.gmail.com> Made in Pakistan by Kamal Hak Trading has begun across LOC in Kashmir . The Kashmiri Muslims must be feeling happy, excited and great. They will now have the access to the pious produce of their religious fraternity. The quality or price will no longer be a concern. Those considerations are reserved for the things produced by kafirs in Hindustan . One day in early eighties I was sitting with the owner of United Medical Hall, Kupawara in the course of my duties as a medical representative. It was a good day for business as sowing season had just finished and the villagers were now flocking to either courts for settling scores with their neighbours or to doctors for obtaining prescriptions for glucose bottles. Gul Saeb of United Medical Hall was a nice and simple man. People also called him khuda dost as he was truly a gentle person who was never provoked into raising his voice. At this particular moment when my attention was focused on exploring the possibilities of reducing the gap between my sales target and achievement; and while I was motivating a salesman to give me the actual stock position of my products I found Gul Saeb engaged in an animated discussion with a Khoja. "Hak saeb, please explain to Haji Saab." Gul Saeb turned towards me with visible signs of frustration on his face. Read more here - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/10/made-in-pakistan-by-kamal-hak.html Please do leave your comments on the blog. Thanks -- Aditya Raj Kaul Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Oct 23 17:30:34 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:30:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police Message-ID: <9c06aab30810230500n9ccf6c3y6a827607aa2d5ac@mail.gmail.com> Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police Smita Nair Posted: Oct 23, 2008 at 1307 hrs IST http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hindu-group-behind-malegaon-modasa-blasts/376802/ Mumbai, October 22 : The Maharashtra police are said to have cracked the September 29 bomb blasts in Malegaon and Modasa town in neighbouring Gujarat saying these were allegedly carried out by the Hindu Jagran Manch, an Indore-based Hindu extremist group known to have links to the BJP's student wing, Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP). The key suspects are being questioned, top Maharashtra Police sources have told The Indian Express. Five Muslims were killed in a powerful blast in the communally sensitive textile town of Malegaon in Maharashtra and one Muslim boy was killed in the explosion in Modasa in Sabarkantha district. Both bombs were placed on motorcycles parked in crowded areas days before Eid and set off after Muslims had broken their Ramzan fast on a Monday evening. The BJP had condemned both the blasts. Investigators initially suspected Islamist groups such as SIMI or the Indian Mujahideen to be behind the near-simultaneous attacks — the first blast was at Modasa at 9.26 pm, the second minutes later in Malegaon — as they came in the aftermath of blasts in Bangalore, Ahmedabad and Delhi. From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 17:50:57 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Citizen's March to Parliament tomorrow for Jamia Message-ID: <682092.10349.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group Calls for a Citizens' March to Parliament to demand Judicial Enquiry under a sitting Judge of the Supreme Court into the Jamia Nagar 'Encounter' 24th October (Friday); Assemble at Jantar Mantar, 11 a.m. Join in large numbers Anuradha (9868881756) Sreerekha ((868120339) Manisha (9811625577) Adil (9990923027) for JTSG From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 19:21:49 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:51:49 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police References: <9c06aab30810230500n9ccf6c3y6a827607aa2d5ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <08E7A4853FFC4D5AB03587B7E6F6C8A8@tara> Now, after the police in India has lost so much of its credibility, should we take this claim with a pinch of salt? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:00 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police > Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police > > Smita Nair Posted: Oct 23, 2008 at 1307 hrs IST > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hindu-group-behind-malegaon-modasa-blasts/376802/ > > Mumbai, October 22 : The Maharashtra police are said to have cracked > the September 29 bomb blasts in Malegaon and Modasa town in > neighbouring Gujarat saying these were allegedly carried out by the > Hindu Jagran Manch, an Indore-based Hindu extremist group known to > have links to the BJP's student wing, Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi > Parishad (ABVP). The key suspects are being questioned, top > Maharashtra Police sources have told The Indian Express. > > Five Muslims were killed in a powerful blast in the communally > sensitive textile town of Malegaon in Maharashtra and one Muslim boy > was killed in the explosion in Modasa in Sabarkantha district. > > Both bombs were placed on motorcycles parked in crowded areas days > before Eid and set off after Muslims had broken their Ramzan fast on a > Monday evening. > > The BJP had condemned both the blasts. Investigators initially > suspected Islamist groups such as SIMI or the Indian Mujahideen to be > behind the near-simultaneous attacks — the first blast was at Modasa > at 9.26 pm, the second minutes later in Malegaon — as they came in the > aftermath of blasts in Bangalore, Ahmedabad and Delhi. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Oct 23 19:38:31 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:38:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police In-Reply-To: <08E7A4853FFC4D5AB03587B7E6F6C8A8@tara> References: <9c06aab30810230500n9ccf6c3y6a827607aa2d5ac@mail.gmail.com> <08E7A4853FFC4D5AB03587B7E6F6C8A8@tara> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810230708y49e53f4dt7906dc508e8dfeb5@mail.gmail.com> Of course not, Tara. We must believe the police only when the detain, arrest, torture and 'fake encounter' Muslims within two days of a blast. But when the police says it was Hindu groups - evidence of which was always around - we should not believe the police. The police, by blaming 'Hindu' groups, is merely trying to malign the majority community. This is happening because a Christian woman is running the country, and whose party wants to ratin its large Muslim votebank (somehow Hindus despite being 84% of the population are not a votebank). This is in line with the histrocial oppression of Hindus by Muslims and Christians. Hindus must now rise and unite. I hereby give a call for you to join me at the RSS camp next to my house at 5 pm tomorrow. Don't worry about the knicker, they're fine with jeans now... we'll drink some delicious cow urine. best shivam On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 7:21 PM, taraprakash wrote: > Now, after the police in India has lost so much of its credibility, should > we take this claim with a pinch of salt? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" < > mail at shivamvij.com> > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:00 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police > > > Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police >> >> Smita Nair Posted: Oct 23, 2008 at 1307 hrs IST >> >> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hindu-group-behind-malegaon-modasa-blasts/376802/ >> >> Mumbai, October 22 : The Maharashtra police are said to have cracked >> the September 29 bomb blasts in Malegaon and Modasa town in >> neighbouring Gujarat saying these were allegedly carried out by the >> Hindu Jagran Manch, an Indore-based Hindu extremist group known to >> have links to the BJP's student wing, Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi >> Parishad (ABVP). The key suspects are being questioned, top >> Maharashtra Police sources have told The Indian Express. >> >> Five Muslims were killed in a powerful blast in the communally >> sensitive textile town of Malegaon in Maharashtra and one Muslim boy >> was killed in the explosion in Modasa in Sabarkantha district. >> >> Both bombs were placed on motorcycles parked in crowded areas days >> before Eid and set off after Muslims had broken their Ramzan fast on a >> Monday evening. >> >> The BJP had condemned both the blasts. Investigators initially >> suspected Islamist groups such as SIMI or the Indian Mujahideen to be >> behind the near-simultaneous attacks — the first blast was at Modasa >> at 9.26 pm, the second minutes later in Malegaon — as they came in the >> aftermath of blasts in Bangalore, Ahmedabad and Delhi. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Oct 23 19:39:00 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:39:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police In-Reply-To: <08E7A4853FFC4D5AB03587B7E6F6C8A8@tara> References: <9c06aab30810230500n9ccf6c3y6a827607aa2d5ac@mail.gmail.com> <08E7A4853FFC4D5AB03587B7E6F6C8A8@tara> Message-ID: <5A319D62-6472-4ACC-8811-31419EE80C53@sarai.net> I never take anything that the police anywhere says without a pinch of salt. Regardless of whether the issue is political or a straightforward criminal matter, and regardless of the purported identity of the accused. I find police handouts indigestible without salt. best Shuddha On 23-Oct-08, at 7:21 PM, taraprakash wrote: > Now, after the police in India has lost so much of its credibility, > should > we take this claim with a pinch of salt? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:00 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police > > >> Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police >> >> Smita Nair Posted: Oct 23, 2008 at 1307 hrs IST >> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hindu-group-behind-malegaon- >> modasa-blasts/376802/ >> >> Mumbai, October 22 : The Maharashtra police are said to have cracked >> the September 29 bomb blasts in Malegaon and Modasa town in >> neighbouring Gujarat saying these were allegedly carried out by the >> Hindu Jagran Manch, an Indore-based Hindu extremist group known to >> have links to the BJP's student wing, Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi >> Parishad (ABVP). The key suspects are being questioned, top >> Maharashtra Police sources have told The Indian Express. >> >> Five Muslims were killed in a powerful blast in the communally >> sensitive textile town of Malegaon in Maharashtra and one Muslim boy >> was killed in the explosion in Modasa in Sabarkantha district. >> >> Both bombs were placed on motorcycles parked in crowded areas days >> before Eid and set off after Muslims had broken their Ramzan fast >> on a >> Monday evening. >> >> The BJP had condemned both the blasts. Investigators initially >> suspected Islamist groups such as SIMI or the Indian Mujahideen to be >> behind the near-simultaneous attacks — the first blast was at >> Modasa >> at 9.26 pm, the second minutes later in Malegaon — as they came >> in the >> aftermath of blasts in Bangalore, Ahmedabad and Delhi. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 19:55:48 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (kirdar singh) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:55:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810230708y49e53f4dt7906dc508e8dfeb5@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30810230500n9ccf6c3y6a827607aa2d5ac@mail.gmail.com> <08E7A4853FFC4D5AB03587B7E6F6C8A8@tara> <9c06aab30810230708y49e53f4dt7906dc508e8dfeb5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090810230725rec8765dga132426172a8567d@mail.gmail.com> When Bill Clinton visited Delhi some years ago, he had brought his dog, which got lost in Delhi. The Delhi police was asked to find the dog and they were given 24 hours to finish the job. But they took four days to find it, and finally brought a tiger on the fifth day. When Clinton's security men asked why they took so long, and where is the dog, they pointed towards the tiger saying. "Here it is… it took four days for it to confess that it is Clinton's dog." On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Of course not, Tara. We must believe the police only when the detain, > arrest, torture and 'fake encounter' Muslims within two days of a blast. But > when the police says it was Hindu groups - evidence of which was always > around - we should not believe the police. The police, by blaming 'Hindu' > groups, is merely trying to malign the majority community. This is happening > because a Christian woman is running the country, and whose party wants to > ratin its large Muslim votebank (somehow Hindus despite being 84% of the > population are not a votebank). This is in line with the histrocial > oppression of Hindus by Muslims and Christians. Hindus must now rise and > unite. I hereby give a call for you to join me at the RSS camp next to my > house at 5 pm tomorrow. Don't worry about the knicker, they're fine with > jeans now... we'll drink some delicious cow urine. > > best > shivam > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 7:21 PM, taraprakash wrote: > >> Now, after the police in India has lost so much of its credibility, should >> we take this claim with a pinch of salt? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्" < >> mail at shivamvij.com> >> To: "sarai list" >> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:00 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police >> >> >> Hindu group behind Malegaon blast: Police >>> >>> Smita Nair Posted: Oct 23, 2008 at 1307 hrs IST >>> >>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hindu-group-behind-malegaon-modasa-blasts/376802/ >>> >>> Mumbai, October 22 : The Maharashtra police are said to have cracked >>> the September 29 bomb blasts in Malegaon and Modasa town in >>> neighbouring Gujarat saying these were allegedly carried out by the >>> Hindu Jagran Manch, an Indore-based Hindu extremist group known to >>> have links to the BJP's student wing, Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi >>> Parishad (ABVP). The key suspects are being questioned, top >>> Maharashtra Police sources have told The Indian Express. >>> >>> Five Muslims were killed in a powerful blast in the communally >>> sensitive textile town of Malegaon in Maharashtra and one Muslim boy >>> was killed in the explosion in Modasa in Sabarkantha district. >>> >>> Both bombs were placed on motorcycles parked in crowded areas days >>> before Eid and set off after Muslims had broken their Ramzan fast on a >>> Monday evening. >>> >>> The BJP had condemned both the blasts. Investigators initially >>> suspected Islamist groups such as SIMI or the Indian Mujahideen to be >>> behind the near-simultaneous attacks — the first blast was at Modasa >>> at 9.26 pm, the second minutes later in Malegaon — as they came in the >>> aftermath of blasts in Bangalore, Ahmedabad and Delhi. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > > > -- > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Oct 23 20:04:02 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:04:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Real Unreal, The function of a list like this is not to provide any person with the means to exhibit their chosen perversity and personal fetish, there are several spaces in the online world where those desires can be fulfilled, consensually. This list is not one of those spaces. I fail to see how or why listening to someone like you insult other people's mothers and sisters, or even yourself, with misogynist outbursts can in any way help me understand the world. All it helps me understand is that you are the kind of person who hides behind an assumed handle while they hurl abuse at the world. It sort of reminds me of the respectable middle class men in public transport buses in Delhi who grope girls and women in the anonymity of a crowd and then enforce a rigid patriarchy at home and insist that their wives, daughters and sisters 'cover themselves up'. They too, love to invoke the mothers and sisters of others while invoking the defence of their little patch of proprietary masculine pride. If you want to exhibit your well protected machismo, I suggest that you take your fake bravado elsewhere. Or else we can always take measures to ensure that you are indeed, taken elsewhere. There is an emerging consensus on this list that a certain kind of language be avoided. I propose that anyone who uses sexist and misogynist language (by which I mean expressions insulting to women as women) be ejected from the list. I have a great degree of tolerance for almost every kind of everyday fascism, which I am happy to combat with arguments, but I do draw the line at the kind of thuggery that seeks to intimidate everyone on this list by its willingness to insult people on the basis of gender. Especially as I think that this base level of consciousness does not need to be dignified by the labour of counter-argumentation and debate. As in real life, so too on this list, a well timed and precisely targetted blow that silences the speaker of sexist speech, is in my opinion the best antidote in circumstances such as the ones that you seem to enjoy provoking. If this list were a physical space, I would know exactly what to do if someone crossed the line with regard to misogyny, as I think you have done. We have had situations like this before, and we have had to reprimand the speakers of sexist and misogynist speech, even if the speakers were saying what they had said in the face of the worst kind of communal hate speech. In that event, both were reprimanded, with equal severity. Luckily, we did not face this kind of offensive behaviour until you made your real-unreal persona blossom into the midst of our consciousness. Since this is a virtual space, our options are limited. The well timed blow has to take a virtual form. But please understand that it does not exclude the possibility of a summary exclusion of the person who offends by speaking in a misogynist and abusive manner, not just by their name, and list handle, but also by their IP address. regards Shuddha On 22-Oct-08, at 6:20 PM, Real Unreal wrote: > looks my dear friend > this all discussion on the list on different topics is not doing one > good thing, it exposes the hidden intentions of participants. > > besides this what is like is that people should take about their > intense personal lives. which they will not. all they do is ' > representation' of this or that. > > hindu , muslim, kashmiri, bengali, etc etc, this sometimes is boring > for me. but since nothing is happening around, so let it be. > > i enjoy reading this and that. > > your choice of slangs ( gali ) is bascially about our real intentions > again. now see Adiyta sahib can not write the way you write. he writes > on the list as if it a havan puja, so can not see the small wet > erection under dothi of the pandit shouting mantras. > > you are free from that. but can we return to the language which is > actually in use out there. > > now see how much chootiya, behenchod ( sister fucker ) is around but > we never hear that on the list, as if it is prohibited. > may be if everybody uses that kind of language, the sponsors might be > close it down. > > anyway, by let us be chootiya, by not using chootiya so often, > > what is important here, to my mind is that we need not look like those > journalists who talk decent in the newspapers, but when they meet in > private spaces and use some other language > > and if it is the same, then we have better articles on all subjects, > in the print media out there > > why we need the list, if we can not use slangs publicly, > > who is afraid of being known as chootiya in the LIst. we all > chootiyas, let us declare it first and then debate the serious issues, > in a very funny way. > > you need not agree > > ru > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Tapas Ray > wrote: >> RL, >> >> Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, though I am moderately >> proficient in Hindi, I can't follow quite a it of what you say, >> probably because its in the Roman script and I can't associate it >> with >> words that are actually known to me. I do understand some, but not >> all. I think I understand the first sentence, in which you seem to >> say >> that I have a clean heart. I must thank you for your kind words if my >> interpretation is correct. On this assumption, I am curious to know >> what it is in my writing that brought you to such a positive >> conclusion about me. >> >> Please do not hesitate to let me know if my interpretation is wrong, >> and you meant something less flattering. I will not mind at all. >> Yesterday, another list member wrote offlist, in very indirect terms, >> that he didn't like the present tone of my posts. I asked him to >> clarify, assuring him that I would not be offended. He took my word >> for it and told me what he meant. I explained why I was writing >> what I >> was writing, apologising for the discomfort I had caused, and I think >> he was surprised by my reaction. >> >> The point of this long paragraph is to assure you that you can >> tell me >> whatever you want - positive, negative, neutral, downright "gali", >> etc. - in English, so that I understand. >> >> As for the messages you have posted on the list, I am a little >> concerned that the many foreigners who are on the list will probably >> feel left out by your Hindi/Urdu messages. I would urge you to >> consider this. >> >> I will look forward to reading English translations of your posts ... >> leaving out - on the list - things like "labda" that I seem to have >> seen, and assume refers to what most of us know as the male genital. >> But I would appreciate it if you would take the trouble to send me, >> offlist, the "uncensored" version, as I shall definitely enjoy the >> flavour, even if it is a "gali" meant for me. I love gali and have >> enjoyed exchanging choice ones with my friends. >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Tapas >> >> >> >> 2008/10/19 Real Unreal : >>> achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho, >>> >>> magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch zayada hi raita phala rahain >>> hai >>> >>> bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko >>> pila >>> data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus >>> gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi >>> >>> ru >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray >>> wrote: >>>> It's just about Aditya. >>>> >>>> By the way, I love your chosen name. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2008/10/18 Real Unreal : >>>>> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a >>>>> fragment of a >>>>> large piece? >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date >>>>>> palms. >>>>>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not >>>>>> sure) >>>>>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a >>>>>> burning >>>>>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and >>>>>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his >>>>>> donkey >>>>>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the >>>>>> bucket >>>>>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of >>>>>> despair - "I >>>>>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : >>>>>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM >>>>>>> or whatever you >>>>>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself >>>>>>> with Lal Ded. >>>>>>> What can be worse ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my >>>>>>> own community; >>>>>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts >>>>>>> deaf and dumb. I >>>>>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, >>>>>>> sur-name, >>>>>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit >>>>>>> at you thinking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it >>>>>>> now - LOD & >>>>>>> CLEAR. Happy ??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Love >>>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>>> list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From mail at shivamvij.com Thu Oct 23 22:15:05 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:15:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity Message-ID: <9c06aab30810230945q7ea70ff9g6d1cdbb3b6ab8e1@mail.gmail.com> Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity Ram Puniyani Last six months have been most disturbing on the Indian political scene. As far as the values of integration are concerned they are being attacked very severely by terrorist-communal forces. First, we saw the series of bomb blasts, Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Delhi and Malegaon. It was projected by the authorities that all these acts are due to Jehadi Muslim groups that police have succeeded in cracking the network. One outcome of this was the Batla house encounter in which police, bravely killed the terrorists. It put out a version that now the terror ring has been busted and kingpins have been arrested. It is another matter that later the relevant-uncomforta ble questions were raised and satisfactory answers to these were not forthcoming. On the top of this the claim that Malegaon blasts were done by SIMI proved to be false as the investigation showed the possibility of ABVP/Bajrang Dal being involved in same. During the same time two Bajrang dal Activists got killed while making bomb in Kanpur, two activists of Hindu Jagran Samiti were involved in placing the bombs in Thane due to which seven people got injured. During this time again in Tenkasi, Tamil Nadu, the bombs went off near RSS office and as usual the cry of wolf was made, but the wolf here had different shades than what RSS wanted to propagate, as most of those planting the bombs turned out to be Hindus, with affiliation, which are not difficult to guess. During the same time the anti Christian violence was orchestrated and launched in Orissa to begin with, later on spilling to Karnataka. The pretext first was that Christians have beaten Swami Laxmananand (December 2007) and later that Christians have killed the swami. Interestingly a Maoist group claimed to have killed him but the RSS combine stated that they don't believe in the claim of Maoists, meaning there by that they have the right to decide who the culprit is! The third tragedy related to the Hindu Muslim violence in Burhanpur, Dhulia and few other places on the slightest pretext of tearing a banner or some such. What is disturbing is the way things are shaping in the country. The anti Muslim hate propaganda, which has been sustained on various myths have gradually been taking he shape of deep rooted perceptions. Earlier lot of planning and bigger pretext was needed to unleash the violence, now even a small pretext suffices to initiate the mayhem. Some of the properties are well marked in advance for destroying. The loss of lives of minorities is many times more than their presence in population. The stereotyping of Muslim community through reporting of acts of terror has boosted the negative perception of the community in a serious way. At the same time the there is a realization that there are two set of laws, that they will not get justice and that their feeling of insecurity in the society is going up by leaps and bounds. One does not know whether this disturbs the ruling coalition or not. For Muslim minorities to keep faith in the Governemnt in such circumstances is not difficult, it is impossible. Christian minority was not the target till quite late. As the hate propaganda based on make believe forcible conversions, allurement, insult of our gods, foreign money keep percolating in the society, and a silent sanction for attacking them started building up. Now even a slightest pretext is sufficient to undertake the despicable violence against the community. This is a clear case as to how already a social mind set has been created, through word of mouth propaganda and media where by the minorities have been demonized and now the violence against them has become the order of the day. Even the global phenomenon of terrorism and local phenomenon has added on to the same and in this case Islamic terrorism, and 'all terrorists are Muslims' has been made the fodder of social thinking. As such, starting from Golwalkar, RSS's formulation that Muslims and Christians are threats to Hindu nation, to the present day, there is a consistent worsening of the level of demonization of minorities. These entire social phenomenons are raising a deeper question related to our democracy. Democracy not only ensures that are citizens are treated equally it also stands for giving affirmative action for weaker sections of society. As such the litmus test of democracy is the welfare and security of minorities. Here we see that as to how the marginal stream which came up during freedom movement and kept aloof from it, the Hindutva vehicle, RSS, has been successfully working, using the democratic space to abolish, precisely the democratic values which gave it a space to stand. While totally defamed after Gandhi murder by one of its followers, its acceptability began with Jayapraksh Narayan letting it run the movement, which led to emergency and later formation of Janata Party. RSS began by spreading hate against Muslims and Christians, formulated by its founders and penned by its ideologue, M.S. Golwalkar. Golwalkar instructed that Muslims, Christians and Communists are the threat to Hindu nation. The RSS shakhhas kept spreading this ceaselessly and it became a part of social common sense over a period of time. RSS also planted its swayamsevaks in different walks of social and political life, education, media, police, bureaucracy etc. Once its political child, Jana Sangh became part of Janata party, it ensured that large number of swaymsevaks become part of media establishment. And later during NDA regime, this game of theirs' had a field day. Capping these efforts through Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, social engineering got intensified in Adivasi areas. With US administration coining the word 'Islamic terrorism' and that propaganda that Madrassas are the dens of training terrorists; RSS completed its indoctrination module. The deadly poison it spread against minorities first spread hate and created divides in the communities, leading to 'hate other', which in turn forms the base of communal violence. Communal violence in Indian context gets assistance from the communalized state apparatus, sections of police in particular leading to polarization of communities and rise to political power of the communal party. The conveyer belt begins from demonizing other and leads to the RSS's political child becoming politically strong. That's how a political party which managed two seats in parliament in1984 elections has become formidable electoral force today, knocking the democratic values and imposing the religion based nationalism. Though not in power in center, its machinations are polarizing the society all over, creating divisions in the society, rampaging the rule of law and paving the way for creeping fascism. What is happening today is reminder of how things happened in Germany, with Hitler leading the carnage. Beginning with hate Jews and then Christian minorities, then Communists and trade unionists paved the way for the stifling atmosphere of fascism, authoritarian state with social base. Today we seem to be helplessly watching a similar situation. While RSS combine is behaving like a rampaging bull, Bajrang Dal planting bombs, its workers carrying arms openly, distributing trishuls en masse, the state ruled by so called secular combine, UPA alliance seems to be a helpless observer, as the whole machinery itself seems to be affected by the communal virus. Where do we go from here? Opposition to this fascist politics, fighting it tooth and nail cannot be postponed by a single minute. The time has come that all those believing in democracy and welfare of all need to come together and put and end to the politics of hate. Popular front at social and political level is the need of the day. The power seeker political formations may not look beyond their personal gains but the social movements need to put the pressure in the right direction for these political people to hang together before we are hanged separately. It is not just a question of opposition to one political formation. The question is can we let the RSS version of Hindusim destroy the Kabir and Gandhi version of Hinduism and religion? The question is can we let the innocent minorities be the scapegoats for the fascist politics to keep on going? Should we let the democratic space be usurped by those wanting to bring in a nation state in the name of religion? Whether India will nurture the values of freedom movement and strive for human rights of all depends on us, as in no time in past the very concept of democracy has been stifled as much as we are witnessing today. -- Issues in Secular politics October 2008 II ram.puniyani@ gmail.com www.pluralindia. com Can be circulated/publishe d/translated etc. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 23:11:11 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik Message-ID: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol check here - http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 -- Aditya Raj Kaul Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 23:11:31 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter Bamiyan, the HinduKush and Kakrak In-Reply-To: <48FF5ADD020000400000B9EA@mail.jnu.ac.in> References: <48FF5ADD020000400000B9EA@mail.jnu.ac.in> Message-ID: <47e122a70810231041kdffedc5pbf9b424ae6f18904@mail.gmail.com> Dear All Just returned from JNU ( Arts Aesthetic Dept.) after listening the lecture presentation by Prof. Deborah. It was very interesting presentaion from all perspectives. The most impressive thing was about the use of Oil by Artists in Bamiyan on the surface while executing images of Buddha. To say so, she said, it was possible only after a Japanese scientist had done a extensive research on the painted layers in Bamiyan The use of masks on the carving on the 55 meter tall carvings was monumental in the valley of Bamiyan during 7th century, along with other painted caves. The presence of coins similar to masks and other urns and images was breathtaking. She showed how Shivasitic traditions had come from Indian via Kashmir before and after and dominated the Hindu Kush valley. The Turks indeed ruled nearly for 200 years and the coinage of that time significantly depicting the use of Roman script as well. The elongaged ears, which we are familiar with Shiva was quite visible on the painting of Buddha in Bamiyan. Having said, thins, one only regrets the Anglo American policies in this region which have resulted into the destruction of the magnificent art works, love is On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Dean School of Arts and Aesthetics wrote: > School of Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University > > Thursday, 23.10.08, 4pm > > Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter Bamiyan, the Hindu Kush and > Kakrak > Klimburg-Salter has published widely on Buddhist art of the Himalayas > and Central Asia. She is Professor for Asian Art History at the > University of Vienna, Director of the National Research Network "The > Cultural History of the Western Himalaya from 8th Century", President of > the European Association of South Asian Archaeology (EASAA) and a Member > of the UNESCO International Coordination Committee (ICC) for the > safeguarding of Afghanistan's Cultural Heritage since its inception in > 2003. This lecture is held in connection with the special course on > Gandhara and Afghanistan in collaboration with the Institute of AdvaAc > > > > > > **********************************************************************************************If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient(s), please be advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this information is strictly prohibited. Whilst Jawharlal Nehru University aims to keep its network free from viruses, you are strongly advised to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses, as the University shall NOT ACCEPT any liability with regard to computer viruses transferred by way of e-mail.**********************************************************************************************This message has been scanned for viruses by GWGUARDIAN > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 23:37:12 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:37:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir's people at centre stage (Hindu) In-Reply-To: <9592CB1973ED42718324B72401FE5B5E@tara> References: <9592CB1973ED42718324B72401FE5B5E@tara> Message-ID: <47e122a70810231107l37cfe57cod52520cf91f61375@mail.gmail.com> dear Tara it is indeed impossible to ignore the Election in kashmir. And we all know there will be more and more exchange of thoughts, angry exchanges as well, about this coming kashmir. 1. Besides many other benefits, The real word 'Democracy' has done one big thing in India: the change of guard has happened without a large scale bloodshed. ( rigging was part of it ) 2. In kashmir too, it did happen on similar lines, but because of this ' kashmir conflict ' it will look different from the rest of elections in India. ( Rigging was part of it ) 3. In kashmir, there will be many news things, many new surprises in the coming election, before and after the results as well. The ritual of elections will be witnessed by masses with an added sync-ism, since everybody knows what elections mean in kashmir. 4. The predictable winner is NC, with PDP following, Congress has no chance, in jammu, BJP is gainer. The anti-election campaign by Hurriyat will be noted by international observes this time more than it was previously. Having said, from experience so far, it would be futile to suggest the participants o remain cool while expressing their opinions on kashmir. as some amongst us are likely to link this anti-election thing as anti-national. the anti-election thing must be seen as part of democratic process, but love is On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:02 PM, taraprakash wrote: > Kashmir's people at centre stage > > In less than four weeks' time, millions living in what is sometimes described as the most dangerous place on earth will make their way to polling stations > stretching from the shadows of Siachen to the sun-baked plains of Samba. More than a few voices had called for deferring the elections until next summer, > fearing that the still-raw wounds of the violence Jammu and Kashmir saw this summer could lead to a poor voter turnout and a verdict polarised along communal > line s. Others were worried that terrorist violence, or an anti-election campaign by secessionists, could lead to more bloodshed. All these concerns are > legitimate. But by ordering that elections to the State Legislative Assembly be held in time to avoid the imposition of central rule, the Election Commission > of India has made a courageous and principled decision that places at centre stage the right of the people to shape their own future. > > Without doubt, the poll process will face many severe challenges before the seven-phase election is completed in December. But the fact that fear has not > been allowed to derail democracy is something of a triumph in itself. For decades, elections in Jammu and Kashmir were used as instruments of some cause: > to bring a particular party to power, for example, or for demonstrating the legitimacy of the State's accession to India. Ever since 1996, when democracy > returned to the State after an extended breakdown brought about by jihadist violence, elections have been cast as a tool for peacemaking. The ECI's decision > underlines the fact that while elections may indeed yield desirable outcomes, this is not their raison d'étre. By making clear that democracy is not contingent > on circumstance or result, the ECI has helped the healing of the dysfunctions that came to characterise J&K's political life because of the decades-old > subversion of democracy. The elections will, moreover, make clear to political parties in Jammu and Kashmir that they - not New Delhi or for that matter > Islamabad - are the principal architects of the State's destiny. Over the summer, the Congress-People's Democratic Party alliance government paid the price > for the two partners' political opportunism and failure to challenge the forces of religious and ethnic chauvinism. Now, the people of the State will have > the opportunity to assess that record and decide who might have the best vision for the future. In 1996 and 2002, terrorist violence claimed the lives > of almost 200 political workers from most major parties, who put their lives on the line to campaign for their beliefs. Ensuring that there will be an > elected government in Jammu and Kashmir before the New Year is a fitting tribute to that sacrifice. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Oct 23 23:56:47 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:56:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [FFO] Nehru's family... In-Reply-To: <611148.77148.qm@web94915.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <611148.77148.qm@web94915.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810231126t1c7a2e86padada78a5cfc0e74@mail.gmail.com> some one called mohammad yunus is father of Sanjay gandhi s/o Indira Gandi intead of Feroze, even if true, is nothing beyond gossip. but if such info keeps u happy, it is alright. yes, stealing a car, that can be the habit of rich children, nothing new about that. but what this all to do with the origin of pseudo-secularism ? love is On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 2:33 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: Brijul > To: fun_and_fun_only at yahoogroups..com > Sent: Thursday, 23 October, 2008 9:33:20 AM > Subject: [FFO] Nehru's family... > > > > Nehru Family Structure....Bit Confusing..!!!! But interesting!!! > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > PleasurE TimE ( www.funandfunonly.in ) : > > Kim in Yellow Skirt SexY PicS > Tamana - Upcoming South Indian Actress masTi piCs > HoT and SexY posters of Lisa Ray HoT > Indian Angelina Jolie - Amrita Arora for Maxim Mag eXclusive > SpicY and YummY Stills of the WeeK SpicY > Bollywood SexY actress Neetu Chandra SexY PicS > Sizzling South Indian Actress - Haniskha SizzlinG PhotoS > SpicY Stills of the WeeK - 30-06-2008 SpicY StillS > South Indian Beauty Sindhu Tulani - CutE CutE PhotoshooT > Bollywood Queen Priyanka Chopra - SpicY PicS > Navneet Kaur HoT and SpicY Photoshoot > SpicY stills of Kamna Jethmalini - CutE > Tollywood Actress Charmee with Charming LooK > > ________________________________ > This Mail is sent by a Member of Group. > > > > Join Us thru Email | Join Us thru Web > | Photo Gallery powered by > __._,_.___ > > Survey : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/surveys?id=2139003 > > Click the link to enter your vote, > > To Join Send a Mail to : fun_and_fun_only-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > <*> To Join Our group Click The Following Link : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > > > FFFFFFFFF > FF > FFFFFFF > FF > FF > FF > > UU UU > UU UU > UU UU & Fun Only - A Group For Friends !!!!! > UU UU > UUUU > > NN NN > NN N NN > NN N NN > NN N NN > NN NN > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > > <*> Your email settings: > > <*> To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/join > (Yahoo! 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Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe > > __,_._,___ > ________________________________ > Get your own website and domain for just Rs.1,999/year.* Click here! -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 01:43:01 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:13:01 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4900DACD.6050500@gmail.com> RL, First, I think such language is not appropriate in a quasi-public space as this. Second, I think this is what you are saying: 1. You are questioning the practice of speaking one language in private settings and another in public ones, quasi-public in this case. 2. You are saying that language is fundamentally metaphorical (concept of deep/conceptual metaphor), and the metaphors arise from our deep motives. These motives ultimately go back to our bodies. One can agree with this. There are theories that say so. 3. Sex is a primary drive/motive and this is reflected in the language we use in private (galis, i.e., words of abuse). If Aditya can talk about spitting, why not - coming to (1) - another bodily motive, sex, here on Reader-list? 4. I am not sure, but you may be saying, also, that the act of spitting is itself a metaphor for the act of domination expressed through certain kinds of sex. So Aditya's "spitting" is an expression of the desire to dominate. I would like to say that the example you chose - involving Hindu priests - is likely to hurt some Hindus. Let's avoid that, since we already have so much bitterness. But now that it's done, let's note that what you say happens, happens not just to Hindu priests, not to priests in general, nor all kinds of preachers, including politicians (say, when they are addressing a rally - or, even worse, speaking to supporters standing in full view like McCain and Obama) but to men as a whole. The equivalent of this may be happening to women, too, but I am not sure. Having said that, I think the question you have raised is very interesting. There are two things involved here. One, why does a public/quasi-public discussion need a language that is different from the one we use with peers, and two, if one body metaphor is used, why not another, relating to a deeper level of metaphor. My take on the first point is that the language we use is always relative to the hearer and the occasion. Even with peers, we don't use the same language with all peers all the time. It all depends. If language is not adapted for these things, communication breaks down. As for the second issue - why not sexually motivated words if one can use spittationally/expectorationally (somebody help me here) motivated ones - I am not sure. The writer who spat can probably answer that question. Tapas Real Unreal wrote: > looks my dear friend > this all discussion on the list on different topics is not doing one > good thing, it exposes the hidden intentions of participants. > > besides this what is like is that people should take about their > intense personal lives. which they will not. all they do is ' > representation' of this or that. > > hindu , muslim, kashmiri, bengali, etc etc, this sometimes is boring > for me. but since nothing is happening around, so let it be. > > i enjoy reading this and that. > > your choice of slangs ( gali ) is bascially about our real intentions > again. now see Adiyta sahib can not write the way you write. he writes > on the list as if it a havan puja, so can not see the small wet > erection under dothi of the pandit shouting mantras. > > you are free from that. but can we return to the language which is > actually in use out there. > > now see how much chootiya, behenchod ( sister fucker ) is around but > we never hear that on the list, as if it is prohibited. > may be if everybody uses that kind of language, the sponsors might be > close it down. > > anyway, by let us be chootiya, by not using chootiya so often, > > what is important here, to my mind is that we need not look like those > journalists who talk decent in the newspapers, but when they meet in > private spaces and use some other language > > and if it is the same, then we have better articles on all subjects, > in the print media out there > > why we need the list, if we can not use slangs publicly, > > who is afraid of being known as chootiya in the LIst. we all > chootiyas, let us declare it first and then debate the serious issues, > in a very funny way. > > you need not agree > > ru > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >> RL, >> >> Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, though I am moderately >> proficient in Hindi, I can't follow quite a it of what you say, >> probably because its in the Roman script and I can't associate it with >> words that are actually known to me. I do understand some, but not >> all. I think I understand the first sentence, in which you seem to say >> that I have a clean heart. I must thank you for your kind words if my >> interpretation is correct. On this assumption, I am curious to know >> what it is in my writing that brought you to such a positive >> conclusion about me. >> >> Please do not hesitate to let me know if my interpretation is wrong, >> and you meant something less flattering. I will not mind at all. >> Yesterday, another list member wrote offlist, in very indirect terms, >> that he didn't like the present tone of my posts. I asked him to >> clarify, assuring him that I would not be offended. He took my word >> for it and told me what he meant. I explained why I was writing what I >> was writing, apologising for the discomfort I had caused, and I think >> he was surprised by my reaction. >> >> The point of this long paragraph is to assure you that you can tell me >> whatever you want - positive, negative, neutral, downright "gali", >> etc. - in English, so that I understand. >> >> As for the messages you have posted on the list, I am a little >> concerned that the many foreigners who are on the list will probably >> feel left out by your Hindi/Urdu messages. I would urge you to >> consider this. >> >> I will look forward to reading English translations of your posts ... >> leaving out - on the list - things like "labda" that I seem to have >> seen, and assume refers to what most of us know as the male genital. >> But I would appreciate it if you would take the trouble to send me, >> offlist, the "uncensored" version, as I shall definitely enjoy the >> flavour, even if it is a "gali" meant for me. I love gali and have >> enjoyed exchanging choice ones with my friends. >> >> Thanks again, >> >> Tapas >> >> >> >> 2008/10/19 Real Unreal : >>> achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho, >>> >>> magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch zayada hi raita phala rahain hai >>> >>> bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko pila >>> data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus >>> gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi >>> >>> ru >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>>> It's just about Aditya. >>>> >>>> By the way, I love your chosen name. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2008/10/18 Real Unreal : >>>>> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a fragment of a >>>>> large piece? >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>>>>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. >>>>>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) >>>>>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning >>>>>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and >>>>>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey >>>>>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket >>>>>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I >>>>>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : >>>>>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you >>>>>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. >>>>>>> What can be worse ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; >>>>>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I >>>>>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, >>>>>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & >>>>>>> CLEAR. Happy ??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Love >>>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 08:28:36 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:28:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it In-Reply-To: <4900DACD.6050500@gmail.com> References: <47e122a70810180306p1a98f00ak25d2ad0d71a47269@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810180319x677da4b4j1fff3c7d6c3e15e9@mail.gmail.com> <4900DACD.6050500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810231958w2517c61n62a4ca6781d70f0f@mail.gmail.com> Dear RL Timeless intervention by Tapas and Shuddha has indeed pointed out the faults in such use of words. Hope that s/he is removed from the list as desired by Tapas. also this kind of use of language in the list or in public, actually diminishes the potency of such words. At the best they can be used for a friendly exchange between individuals well known to each other. Such strong words are good for making noise during a angry street brawl. without a progress in dialogue, which finally leads to hathapai ( actual fighting ) Particularly, people like me who sometimes use such words for effective expressions in Art, can found it difficult if there is no difference between this and that. throwing shit on others, and using shit ( own or others ) are distinctly two opposite practices. warmly is On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 1:43 AM, Tapas Ray wrote: > RL, > > First, I think such language is not appropriate in a quasi-public space > as this. > > Second, I think this is what you are saying: > > 1. You are questioning the practice of speaking one language in private > settings and another in public ones, quasi-public in this case. > > 2. You are saying that language is fundamentally metaphorical (concept > of deep/conceptual metaphor), and the metaphors arise from our deep > motives. These motives ultimately go back to our bodies. One can agree > with this. There are theories that say so. > > 3. Sex is a primary drive/motive and this is reflected in the language > we use in private (galis, i.e., words of abuse). If Aditya can talk > about spitting, why not - coming to (1) - another bodily motive, sex, > here on Reader-list? > > 4. I am not sure, but you may be saying, also, that the act of spitting > is itself a metaphor for the act of domination expressed through certain > kinds of sex. So Aditya's "spitting" is an expression of the desire to > dominate. > > I would like to say that the example you chose - involving Hindu priests > - is likely to hurt some Hindus. Let's avoid that, since we already have > so much bitterness. > > But now that it's done, let's note that what you say happens, happens > not just to Hindu priests, not to priests in general, nor all kinds of > preachers, including politicians (say, when they are addressing a rally > - or, even worse, speaking to supporters standing in full view like > McCain and Obama) but to men as a whole. The equivalent of this may be > happening to women, too, but I am not sure. > > Having said that, I think the question you have raised is very > interesting. There are two things involved here. One, why does a > public/quasi-public discussion need a language that is different from > the one we use with peers, and two, if one body metaphor is used, why > not another, relating to a deeper level of metaphor. > > My take on the first point is that the language we use is always > relative to the hearer and the occasion. Even with peers, we don't use > the same language with all peers all the time. It all depends. If > language is not adapted for these things, communication breaks down. > > As for the second issue - why not sexually motivated words if one can > use spittationally/expectorationally (somebody help me here) motivated > ones - I am not sure. The writer who spat can probably answer that question. > > Tapas > > > > Real Unreal wrote: >> looks my dear friend >> this all discussion on the list on different topics is not doing one >> good thing, it exposes the hidden intentions of participants. >> >> besides this what is like is that people should take about their >> intense personal lives. which they will not. all they do is ' >> representation' of this or that. >> >> hindu , muslim, kashmiri, bengali, etc etc, this sometimes is boring >> for me. but since nothing is happening around, so let it be. >> >> i enjoy reading this and that. >> >> your choice of slangs ( gali ) is bascially about our real intentions >> again. now see Adiyta sahib can not write the way you write. he writes >> on the list as if it a havan puja, so can not see the small wet >> erection under dothi of the pandit shouting mantras. >> >> you are free from that. but can we return to the language which is >> actually in use out there. >> >> now see how much chootiya, behenchod ( sister fucker ) is around but >> we never hear that on the list, as if it is prohibited. >> may be if everybody uses that kind of language, the sponsors might be >> close it down. >> >> anyway, by let us be chootiya, by not using chootiya so often, >> >> what is important here, to my mind is that we need not look like those >> journalists who talk decent in the newspapers, but when they meet in >> private spaces and use some other language >> >> and if it is the same, then we have better articles on all subjects, >> in the print media out there >> >> why we need the list, if we can not use slangs publicly, >> >> who is afraid of being known as chootiya in the LIst. we all >> chootiyas, let us declare it first and then debate the serious issues, >> in a very funny way. >> >> you need not agree >> >> ru >> >> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>> RL, >>> >>> Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, though I am moderately >>> proficient in Hindi, I can't follow quite a it of what you say, >>> probably because its in the Roman script and I can't associate it with >>> words that are actually known to me. I do understand some, but not >>> all. I think I understand the first sentence, in which you seem to say >>> that I have a clean heart. I must thank you for your kind words if my >>> interpretation is correct. On this assumption, I am curious to know >>> what it is in my writing that brought you to such a positive >>> conclusion about me. >>> >>> Please do not hesitate to let me know if my interpretation is wrong, >>> and you meant something less flattering. I will not mind at all. >>> Yesterday, another list member wrote offlist, in very indirect terms, >>> that he didn't like the present tone of my posts. I asked him to >>> clarify, assuring him that I would not be offended. He took my word >>> for it and told me what he meant. I explained why I was writing what I >>> was writing, apologising for the discomfort I had caused, and I think >>> he was surprised by my reaction. >>> >>> The point of this long paragraph is to assure you that you can tell me >>> whatever you want - positive, negative, neutral, downright "gali", >>> etc. - in English, so that I understand. >>> >>> As for the messages you have posted on the list, I am a little >>> concerned that the many foreigners who are on the list will probably >>> feel left out by your Hindi/Urdu messages. I would urge you to >>> consider this. >>> >>> I will look forward to reading English translations of your posts ... >>> leaving out - on the list - things like "labda" that I seem to have >>> seen, and assume refers to what most of us know as the male genital. >>> But I would appreciate it if you would take the trouble to send me, >>> offlist, the "uncensored" version, as I shall definitely enjoy the >>> flavour, even if it is a "gali" meant for me. I love gali and have >>> enjoyed exchanging choice ones with my friends. >>> >>> Thanks again, >>> >>> Tapas >>> >>> >>> >>> 2008/10/19 Real Unreal : >>>> achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho, >>>> >>>> magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch zayada hi raita phala rahain hai >>>> >>>> bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko pila >>>> data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus >>>> gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi >>>> >>>> ru >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>>>> It's just about Aditya. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, I love your chosen name. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2008/10/18 Real Unreal : >>>>>> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a fragment of a >>>>>> large piece? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >>>>>>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date palms. >>>>>>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not sure) >>>>>>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a burning >>>>>>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and >>>>>>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his donkey >>>>>>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the bucket >>>>>>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of despair - "I >>>>>>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : >>>>>>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM or whatever you >>>>>>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself with Lal Ded. >>>>>>>> What can be worse ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my own community; >>>>>>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts deaf and dumb. I >>>>>>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, sur-name, >>>>>>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit at you thinking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it now - LOD & >>>>>>>> CLEAR. Happy ??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Love >>>>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 08:40:08 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:40:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: [FFO] Nehru's family... In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810231126t1c7a2e86padada78a5cfc0e74@mail.gmail.com> References: <611148.77148.qm@web94915.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70810231126t1c7a2e86padada78a5cfc0e74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810232010k138d67cexca26f2d4bb2d55a4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajendra ji some one called mohammad yunus is father of Sanjay gandhi s/o Indira Gandi intead of Feroze, even if true, is nothing beyond gossip. but if such info keeps u happy, it is alright. yes, stealing a car, that can be the habit of rich children, nothing new about that. but what this all to do with the origin of pseudo-secularism ? love is Survey : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/surveys?id=2139003 Click the link to enter your vote, To Join Send a Mail to : fun_and_fun_only-subscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> To Join Our group Click The Following Link : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ FFFFFFFFF FF FFFFFFF FF FF FF UU UU UU UU UU UU & Fun Only - A Group For Friends !!!!! UU UU UUUU NN NN NN N NN NN N NN NN N NN NN NN <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ <*> Your email settings: <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: Normal Mode : mailto:fun_and_fun_only-normal at yahoogroups.com Digest Mode : mailto:fun_and_fun_only-digest at yahoogroups.com Fully Featured Mode : mailto:fun_and_fun_only-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/join Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: inder salim Date: Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 11:56 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [FFO] Nehru's family... To: reader-list at sarai.net some one called mohammad yunus is father of Sanjay gandhi s/o Indira Gandi intead of Feroze, even if true, is nothing beyond gossip. but if such info keeps u happy, it is alright. yes, stealing a car, that can be the habit of rich children, nothing new about that. but what this all to do with the origin of pseudo-secularism ? love is On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 2:33 PM, rajendra bhat wrote: > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: Brijul > To: fun_and_fun_only at yahoogroups..com > Sent: Thursday, 23 October, 2008 9:33:20 AM > Subject: [FFO] Nehru's family... > > > > Nehru Family Structure....Bit Confusing..!!!! But interesting!!! > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > PleasurE TimE ( www.funandfunonly.in ) : > > Kim in Yellow Skirt SexY PicS > Tamana - Upcoming South Indian Actress masTi piCs > HoT and SexY posters of Lisa Ray HoT > Indian Angelina Jolie - Amrita Arora for Maxim Mag eXclusive > SpicY and YummY Stills of the WeeK SpicY > Bollywood SexY actress Neetu Chandra SexY PicS > Sizzling South Indian Actress - Haniskha SizzlinG PhotoS > SpicY Stills of the WeeK - 30-06-2008 SpicY StillS > South Indian Beauty Sindhu Tulani - CutE CutE PhotoshooT > Bollywood Queen Priyanka Chopra - SpicY PicS > Navneet Kaur HoT and SpicY Photoshoot > SpicY stills of Kamna Jethmalini - CutE > Tollywood Actress Charmee with Charming LooK > > ________________________________ > This Mail is sent by a Member of Group. > > > > Join Us thru Email | Join Us thru Web > | Photo Gallery powered by > __._,_.___ > > Survey : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/surveys?id=2139003 > > Click the link to enter your vote, > > To Join Send a Mail to : fun_and_fun_only-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > <*> To Join Our group Click The Following Link : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > > > FFFFFFFFF > FF > FFFFFFF > FF > FF > FF > > UU UU > UU UU > UU UU & Fun Only - A Group For Friends !!!!! > UU UU > UUUU > > NN NN > NN N NN > NN N NN > NN N NN > NN NN > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/ > > <*> Your email settings: > > <*> To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/join > (Yahoo! ID required) > > <*> To change settings via email: > > Normal Mode : > mailto:fun_and_fun_only-normal at yahoogroups.com > > Digest Mode : > mailto:fun_and_fun_only-digest at yahoogroups.com > > Fully Featured Mode : > mailto:fun_and_fun_only-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fun_and_fun_only/join > > > > Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully > Featured > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe > > __,_._,___ > ________________________________ > Get your own website and domain for just Rs.1,999/year.* Click here! - -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com - -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 09:51:55 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:51:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810220524p72246ee2x9b67e9195f936d59@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220524p72246ee2x9b67e9195f936d59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810232121j46bd3afey40a3c582be954ad6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shivam, I am still awaiting you to either 1. Confirm your statements 2. Accept that you have been biased against kashmiri pandits and you are a compulsive liar 3. You are a source of disinformation campaign. You owe that because you are supposed to be a journalist . Pawan On 10/22/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shivam, > > I am not asking you to ask for forgiveness. I am just asking you to clarify > whether your details about 5% reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra > or any state is true. > > If it is , pls prove. > > If not , pls share why do you spread such lies. > > As a journalist you should not be doing that , unless you work for someone > who has a a motive. > > Pawan DUrani > > > On 10/22/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >> >> Pawan sahab, I prostrate before thee. Forgive me! forgive me! forgive me! >> Although forgiveness is a distinctively Christian idea, I assure you I am >> not trying to coerce you into converting by asking for forgiveness. >> >> Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Jai Maharashtra! Vande Matram! Vande >> Matram! Vande Matram! Ek dhakka aur do! (Marching straight to an RSS camp.) >> >> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Shivam, >>> >>> You have a distinctive problem of assuming things in a particular >>> direction. I do understand that you have an inbuilt mechanism which >>> generates love for separatist elements of this country and also generates >>> hate for those who are victims of Islamic terrorism. In this case it is >>> Kashmiri Pandits.You are also well known for your habit of loving to hate >>> Kashmiri Pandits. >>> >>> Also what is well known is that most of your knowledge is half baked and >>> you work as a propogonda machinery of the separatists. >>> >>> I can challenge you to prove that Kashmiri Pandits have 5% reservations >>> in any state of India, leave alone Maharshtra. >>> >>> If you fail to prove, you owe an apology to whole of the group for being >>> misleading and mischevios. And that defines your character and credential as >>> a journalist. >>> >>> The reason I say Jai Maharshtra , Jai Hind is for the reason I am am >>> based in Mahrashtra . I am not Namak Harams like your friends who back stab >>> India and have few admirers in this EXPRESS. >>> >>> Pls come out clean on your statement. Do you have the guts ? >>> >>> You misleader >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/21/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>>> >>>> Jai Maharashtra??? Surely that is not simply the eulogising of a >>>> particular state. In the current political context it is xenophobia. >>>> Or does this, Pawan, have something to do with Maharashtra having 5% >>>> reservations for Kashmiri Pandits? >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Pawan Durani >>>> wrote: >>>> > Notwithsatnding a well caluclulated effort backed by a foreign country >>>> , so >>>> > called intellectuals and so called jornalists who created a >>>> disinformation >>>> > campaign, such as in Jamia Encounter , Parlaiment case are being >>>> followed >>>> > more closely. >>>> > >>>> > Number of people are supposed to be under close scanner and their >>>> links >>>> > ascertained. >>>> > >>>> > Hoping the truth and the details payouts will come out soon. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Pawan >>>> > Jai Maharshtra - Jai Hind >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 10/20/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> I wonder when right wing loonies of the sort who vandalise churches, >>>> >> burn non-Hindus alive and claim to be perpetual victims - I wonder >>>> >> when they will join the mainstream? >>>> >> >>>> >> best >>>> >> shivam >>>> >> >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> > When will Muslims join the mainstream? >>>> >> > By M.V. Kamath >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Organiser >>>> >> > >>>> >> > It obviously does not occur to some mullahs and other reactionary >>>> >> > Muslims that by refusing to sing Vande Mataram and threatening to >>>> >> > withdraw Muslim children from schools where it is routine to sing >>>> >> > it, they are only telling their co-religionists to withdraw from >>>> the >>>> >> > Indian mainstream. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Like the Muslim League of pre-Independence days, one Minister of >>>> >> > Uttar Pradesh has called for the formation of a separate Muslim >>>> >> > state within the Indian Union instead of Harit Pradesh in western >>>> >> > Uttar Pradesh. It is one more divisive step that the Muslim >>>> >> > community is taking which is self-destructive and will only >>>> alienate >>>> >> > Muslims from their Hindu brethren further. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Refusing to sing Vande Mataram on extremely illogical grounds is >>>> bad >>>> >> > enough. Demanding a separate communal state is inviting more >>>> >> > trouble. Not that the idea will ever get accepted. But what it >>>> >> > reveals is a sick mind that continues to be rooted in the medieval >>>> >> > era. The argument one frequently hears is that Muslims are under- >>>> >> > represented in every State Legislature as well as in Lok Sabha. But >>>> >> > then whose fault is it. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > If Muslims refuse to jo in the mainstream and insist on being >>>> >> > treated as a minority, they can hardly expect popular support. Past >>>> >> > experience plainly shows that when communal peace prevails Muslims >>>> >> > get more seats in the Lok Sabha. It is true that in the last >>>> >> > fourteen Lok Sabha elections only a fraction of the number of seats >>>> >> > they should normally deserve proportionate to their population were >>>> >> > won by Muslims. The truth is that they had, on their own, forfeited >>>> >> > the confidence of their Hindu brethren. If a minority lives apart >>>> >> > and stays apart from the majority community how can it possibly win >>>> >> > the trust, let alone affection, of the latter? >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Consider the following figures: In the first Lok Sabha elections, >>>> if >>>> >> > one goes strictly by population percentage Muslims should have got >>>> >> > 49 seats. Instead, they got 21 seats. In the second Lok Sabha >>>> >> > elections, the population percentage remained the same—but the >>>> >> > passions aroused by the Partition was subsiding and the Muslims won >>>> >> > 24 seats, three more than in the first elections. In the third Lok >>>> >> > Sabha elections, population percentage-wise Muslim should have >>>> >> > received 53 seats but they won only 23. The highest number of seats >>>> >> > Muslims won was in the seventh Lok Sabha elections when, though >>>> >> > population-percentage wise they should have received 53 seats they >>>> >> > managed to secure 49—not bad. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Since then, largely because of emotional estrangement, the number >>>> of >>>> >> > Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha has been falling. From the tenth >>>> to >>>> >> > the four teen Lok Sabha elections they should have got 66 seats but >>>> >> > they could barely manage to get between 28 to 36 seats. The >>>> >> > fourteenth Lok Sabha elections were in 2004 when Muslims joined >>>> >> > different political parties, primarily to beat the BJP. Muslims got >>>> >> > ten seats in Congress, seven in the Samajwadi, four in the CPM, >>>> four >>>> >> > in the BJP, three in the RJD and one each in other local parties. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > They can win more, if they get over their antediluvian ideas and >>>> >> > become a modern, liberated people, instead of a people suspect of >>>> >> > terrorism and anti-Indian motives. They can't get votes by putting >>>> >> > their women in burqas and sending their children to madrasas when >>>> >> > they should be sent to normal primary and secondary schools to be >>>> >> > one with their Hindu and other students from the majority and >>>> allied >>>> >> > religions. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > There is another lesson that they should learn which is that hating >>>> >> > the BJP and trying to curry favour from the likes of Laloo Prasad >>>> >> > Yadav or Mulayam Singh Yadav or Mayavati will not help them. They >>>> >> > will continue to remain estranged from the majority community, no >>>> >> > matter what arguments the so-called secular parties may put forth >>>> to >>>> >> > win their favour. >>>> >> > Neither in Bihar, nor in Uttar Pradesh has the condition of Muslims >>>> >> > changed because they voted against the BJP. As Chaturanan Mishra, a >>>> >> > former Union Minister of Labour (1996-1998) and a prominent figure >>>> >> > in the Leftist movement in the country aptly noted in Mainstream >>>> >> > (August 17) , the Congress, allegedly the largest secular party >>>> >> > nominated 39 Muslims in 1991 and 1996, of whom only 12 could win. >>>> >> > Similarly, 32 Muslims were nominated by the Congress in 1998 but >>>> >> > only seven could succeed. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Religion can never be the base of getting a ticket. Muslim citizens >>>> >> > must come up in front and be seen as social workers, serving people >>>> >> > of all religions. If they insist to live in the past as in the Shah >>>> >> > Banoo case, or if they seem to be supporting SIMI, an ISI-financed >>>> >> > student organisation—no matter how wrongly—then they doom >>>> themselves >>>> >> > to being eternally marginalised. And they should not blame the >>>> >> > majority community. As Shakespeare might have said to Muslims, the >>>> >> > fault, dear sires, lies not in the majority but in yourselves that >>>> >> > you want to stay separate. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Turks are not less Islamic because the Ataturk threw out the >>>> >> > Caliphate and liberated Turkish women. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The Indonesians are not less Islamic because they continue to >>>> adhere >>>> >> > in many ways to their ancient Hindu traditions. They are not >>>> >> > hesitant to call their airlines Garuda Airlines; they are not >>>> >> > hesitant to give their children Sanskrit name like Meghavati or >>>> >> > Saraswati (a daughter of former President Waheed); nor are they >>>> >> > hesitant in putting the figure of Ganesh on their currency notes. >>>> An >>>> >> > Indonesian production of Ramayana would put some of our own Indian >>>> >> > artists to shame; but here in India a section of reactionary >>>> Muslims >>>> >> > refuse to sing even the first two stanzas of Vande Mataram because >>>> >> > somewhere down the line in the song there is a reference to Durga. >>>> >> > And Indonesia is 98 per cent Muslim! >>>> >> > >>>> >> > If Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a great Islamic scholar who had his >>>> >> > training in Islamic law and jurisprudence in the famous Islamic >>>> >> > University in Cairo, could respect Vande Mataram and stand to >>>> >> > attention when it was sung at AICC meetings, surely lesser Islamic >>>> >> > scholars can take a leaf from his book. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Many Muslim organisations increasingly seem to be taking their cue >>>> >> > from fundamentalist Islamic organisation in Pakistan. It is not >>>> >> > going to help them one bit and it is time they realise it. Muslims >>>> >> > should not consider themselves a minority. India is a democracy and >>>> >> > all citizens are equal. Hindus are not that stupid as to want to >>>> >> > hurt Islamic sentiments of Muslims. But we need to live under a >>>> >> > Common Law as citizens are equal in every way. For Muslims, >>>> >> > especially, separatism should be deeply abhorrent. It should be >>>> >> > shunned like the very devil. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > We are one people and India, as Mohammad Iqbal once wrote belongs >>>> to >>>> >> > everyone, irrespective of caste, creed, religion or community. >>>> Sareh >>>> >> > jahan seh achcha Hindustan hamara should be our guiding mission. >>>> >> > Then everything will fall in its place and—who knows—the time may >>>> >> > come when under sound Muslim leadership, Hindus themselves may vote >>>> >> > for Muslims. Who, today, is our President? Who, our Prime Minister? >>>> >> > And who the leader of the Congress Party, oh? >>>> >> > http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php? >>>> >> > name=Content&pa=showpage&pid= >>>> >> > >>>> >> > 150&page=12 --- >>>> >> > >>>> ..................................................................... >>>> >> > .................................... >>>> >> > http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-blog-column168.htm >>>> >> > Indian Muslims: Dealing with Past >>>> >> > Mayank Patel >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Across the world, Present generation grapples with past wrong >>>> >> > committed by previous generation. From South Africa to Germany and >>>> >> > from America to Australia, Most groups have acknowledged past >>>> >> > misdeeds and apologized for the suffering caused by their action >>>> >> > toward others. Thus, making genuine progress on path of truth and >>>> >> > reconciliation. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > However, Indian Muslims have taken opposite path of denial, >>>> >> > distortion and deflection. They=2 0have received more than generous >>>> >> > help from allies like Marxist, Fabian Socialist, Islamist etc. who >>>> >> > are co-travelers on this path. In fact, it is the allies who have >>>> >> > encouraged and lead Indian Muslims on this path. On behalf of >>>> Indian >>>> >> > Muslims, Allies have used denial, distortion and deflection tactic >>>> >> > to justify even the most unjustifiable mistakes like partition. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Indian Muslim"s pro-partition role is proven beyond reasonable >>>> >> > doubt. 1945-46 Provincial Elections were fought on a single agenda >>>> >> > of partition. Partition became possible only because overwhelming >>>> >> > majority of Indian Muslims indirectly voted for it in that >>>> election. >>>> >> > Any objective analysis of current course and arguments favoring >>>> >> > course correction is usually greeted by an old tactic of shooting >>>> >> > the messenger. Three bullets are very popular with shooters. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > First bullet is "Present Generation of Indian Muslims should not be >>>> >> > blamed for Partition". Shooter conveniently and cleverly presumes >>>> >> > non-existent intent behind analysis. This is absurd. A course >>>> >> > correction and acknowledgement of past generation"s mistake could >>>> >> > never imply culpability of present generation. On the contrary, >>>> >> > Acknowledgement would reassure all that apple has indeed fallen far >>>> >> > from the tree. This would strengthen trust, improve communal >>>> >> > relations and lead to reconciliation and closure. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Second bullet is much more lethal. It is "165 million strong Indian >>>> >> > Muslims cannot be wished away". Let me clarify, I=2 0would not wish >>>> >> > away anybody regardless of numerical strength. There is also >>>> certain >>>> >> > belligerence behind this quote. This virulent belligerence is quite >>>> >> > understandable if not agreeable. After all, Indian Muslims are 165 >>>> >> > million strong and allies who have vice like grip over India"s >>>> >> > media, academia and politics are stronger. However, it does not >>>> >> > change the fact that current path of denial, distortion and >>>> >> > deflection could never lead to peace, truth and reconciliation. On >>>> >> > the contrary, The Logical end of this path is civic strife if not >>>> >> > civil war in which there are no winners and all losers. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Third bullet is the denial bullet. There are dozens of denial >>>> >> > bullets. One of the most popular Denial Bullet is silence >>>> >> > hypothesis. It claims that Indian Muslims are silent and allies who >>>> >> > claim to be speaking and acting on behalf of Indian Muslims are not >>>> >> > true representative of Indian Muslims. It further touts this >>>> alleged >>>> >> > silence as proof that there is no alliance and Indian Muslims >>>> >> > disagrees with current path of denial, deflection and distortion. >>>> >> > There are many holes in this hypothesis. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Firstly, Silence is not same as acknowledgement of past mistakes. >>>> >> > Secondly, there is no such thing as silent disagreement. >>>> >> > Disagreement is always vocal. On the Contrary, Agreement can often >>>> >> > lead to conspiracy of silence. Thus, Alleged Silence can never be >>>> >> > interpreted as a disagreement with current path. Finally, Indian >>>> >> > Muslims are speaking with their votes and participation in massi ve >>>> >> > political rallies. They consistently vote for allies who favor >>>> >> > denial path. In fact more an ally denies and asserts innocence of >>>> >> > terrorist outfits more vote it receives. These votes provide allies >>>> >> > a claim to speak and act on behalf of Indian Muslims. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > The current path of denial is compounding past mistakes. More-over, >>>> >> > it makes Indian Muslims over reliant on Allies. This over reliance >>>> >> > is unhealthy and dangerous. Allies have their own ideological beef >>>> >> > against Hindus and have selfish interest is making matters worse. >>>> >> > There are many reasons for breaking the alliance and changing >>>> >> > course. Perhaps the best reason is to end a history of wrongdoing >>>> >> > and leave a legacy of honesty for future generation. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Related story: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Forgive, not Forget History @ >>>> >> > >>>> http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/forgive-but-never-forget-% >>>> >> > e2%80%93-history/ >>>> >> > _________________________________________ >>>> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >> > To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ >> >> > From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 10:17:03 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:17:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Newswatch on Media Coverage of Bodo-Bd clashes in Assam Message-ID: New Delhi, October 23: The ethnic clashes between indigenous Bodos and Bangladeshi migrants which broke out in Assam in the first week of October 2008 gave unnecessary importance and prominence to the "Muslim" aspect of the latter. The finding is from a study by Newswatch, an independent online entity which monitors, collates and documents news and information pertaining to the news media and journalism. The Newswatch (http://www.newswatch.in/) probe was conducted over an eight-day period starting the day the clashes broke out (October 3). The study -Identities and descriptors: How the news media described the Assam clashes - was meant to be a qualitative analysis, and not a quantitative one. The idea was to look at the way the news media covered the issue, and not quantify the exact number of publications or news outlets that did a story, or did not. "Sectarian violence in Northeast does not always make it to the front page of newspapers. But this one did - coming as it was in the backdrop of the attacks on Christians by Hindu rightwing elements in Karnataka and Orissa, and a palpable sense of Islamophobia that seemed to be all-pervading in the aftermath of the serial blasts in Ahmedabad, Bangalore and New Delhi. The prime objective of this study was to look at how the media uses descriptors and modifiers in ethnic conflict situations," explained Newswatch editor, Subir Ghosh. Altogether, 597 stories published during the period were tracked down by the researchers. After leaving out duplicates (mainly because of news agency creeds), the number was brought down to 187. The next round of elimination was done to exclude non-English stories and ones that ran into 100 words or less. In the end, 138 stories were selected for the content analysis. Very few stories, it was found, desisted from naming the two communities involved in the clashes. It would be wrong to say very few "publications" did so, since different news items emanating from the same outlet used varied descriptors for the two groups of people. In other words, there seemed to be a dearth of policy when it came to naming communities or ethnic groups involved in clashes. The study found 26 sets of descriptors and modifiers which were used to describe the Bodo tribals which ranged from "local Hindus called Bodos" to "non-Muslims." In case of Bangladeshi migrants, the number was 27, with the descriptors and modifiers varying from "Bangladeshi Muslim migrants" to "Muslim migrant settlers". Many terms, both correctly and wrongly, were used as synonyms. The study also looked at the use of the term "Muslim" both in the headlines as well as in the body of the copies. Seven news items (of six outlets) played up the Muslim card in the headlines. As many as 66 stories used "Muslim" to denote Bangladeshi migrants either in the first two paragraphs, or later in the copy (if this community was first introduced only in a latter part of the story concerned). Though the Bangladeshi migrants, by and large, are Muslims, the over-emphasis on the "Muslim" aspect of this particular community went a large way in adding a communal colour to a clash that was not essentially communal in nature. It was rather surprising that the coverage of a clash which left over 50 dead and rendered about 100,000 homeless, saw only 21 Bodos/Assamese/Bengalis and 8 Bangladeshi migrants being quoted in 138 stories. This filtering of voices becomes all the more lopsided given that most of the stories analysed directly or through insinuation projected illegal Bangladeshi (even mostly mentioned just as Muslims) as being the victims of orchestrated violence against them. The lopsidedness in the count of both sources and voices of the people may be gauged from the fact that almost half the stories (65) originated from Guwahati. The report can be downloaded from here: http://www.newswatch.in/research/1754 Details of the report: Pages: 9 Format: PDF Colour: All-colour Price: Free Size: 640 KB For more information contact: Subir Ghosh, Editor-Publisher, Newswatch Tel: 0-9811316305 Email: editor at newswatch.in Website: http://www.newswatch.in/ From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 10:03:06 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:03:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of Yasin Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of them had anything to do with the attack on my car. I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack was cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger about it a year and a half later is shameful. For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced disappearances in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at Jantar Mantar. The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself included. Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the event. It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the conscience of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or compensation, just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive allow us to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their last rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us for years. Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just exhumed their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week before-- and making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a noisy protest across the street. Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah Geelani had arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to all MPs across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the public event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women weeping and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young Kashmiri Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate lawns just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the guesthouse for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I turned at the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half blinded me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the muck out of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that the plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously meant for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek insignificantly. Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral damage. The irony was not lost on me. My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took more than a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined forever and had to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the day of the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was grateful to have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew I could have crashed into the circle or into another car. I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which Aditya is a member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will say how can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, and I have no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya betrayed his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest at the Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but heard about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show that had to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I assume the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims of enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not countenance the exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of lies, was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that denounces State terrorism? As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were targeted in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of Pandits find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims of violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by this attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the pain of others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to identify with yours. Sonia Jabbar > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol check here - > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 -- Aditya Raj > Kaul Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & > Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 10:44:58 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:44:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?VG91cmlzbeKAmXMgTmV3IOKAnFNtYXJ0IEdyb3d0?= =?utf-8?q?h=E2=80=9D-_at_whose_expense=3F_The_Case_of_Tsunami_Fund?= =?utf-8?q?_Appropriation_by_Kerala_Tourism?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35f96d470810232214t5ee39825iab5cca13e41a5a1f@mail.gmail.com> Tourism's New "Smart Growth"- at whose expense? The Case of Tsunami Fund Appropriation by Kerala Tourism http://keralatourismwatch.org/node/117 Dear friends, Warm Greetings from Kerala Tourism Watch! It was the other day the UNWTO at its annual ritual of official Tourism Day Celebration falling on 27th of every September tried to reassure an increasingly skeptical local communities that Tourism growth will be pursued with enhanced emphasis "on ethics and local community involvement…" This, it declared "is the main conclusion of this year's World Tourism Day (WTD) Think Tank" held in Lima, Peru. The UNWTO in its statement also emphasized that "Tourism must grow in a smart way". We bring to your attention an example of such "smart ways" of tourism growth. It comes from Kerala where, in an a appalling violation of Federal Government rules and procedures and fundamental ethical protocols, funds earmarked for rehabilitation of Tsunami victims have been appropriated for Tourism development projects by Kerala Tourism. Will the UNWTO listen? The Government of Kerala has received 14,417.5 million Indian Rupees of Government of India's Tsunami Rehabilitation Programme (TRP) funds for rebuilding the lives and livelihood of tsunami affected coastal communities. Of this, 1000 million Indian Rupees have been allocated to the state tourism board, Kerala Tourism, to fund 20 tourism projects proposed by them. Kerala Tourism is diverting this fund meant for restoring the life of tsunami affected population for developing infrastructure for beach tourism. These projects are not in tsunami-affected areas and the projects will bring hardly any benefit to local people, particularly marginalised affected fishing communities. These projects are being done in the name of coastal protection while it is for the development of tourism infrastructure and so-called beach beautification schemes. The fishing community has been questioning the rationale of using Tsunami funds for tourism projects. Many of the projects will directly conflict with the needs and interests of tsunami-affected communities. They have already raised their protests and concerns .But the arrogant Kerala Tourism has never taken these concerns in to account and they are going ahead with these projects, neglecting the opinion and concern of the coastal communities. We, Kerala Tourism Watch believes that the decision of Kerala Tourism to go ahead with the project activities despite the raising concerns and protests from the coastal communities is an insult and injustice to the tsunami affected communities. And thus we are calling for a larger campaign to stop the inhuman act of 'Irresponsible Kerala Tourism'. We also request you to question Kerala Tourism in the international forums like World Travel Mart, where Kerala Tourism portraying it as 'Responsible Tourism Destination' for its marketing. We request you to send your protest to Kerala Tourism and spread this to your part of the world to show your solidarity to the real victims of tsunami. Looking forward for your solidarity Kerala Tourism Watch In solidarity with the Kerala's Tsunami victims we request you to write to the following authorities in Kerala and New Delhi against unethical and ill-advised appropriation of Tsunami funds for Tourism projects in the state: Smt. Ambika Soni, Union Minister of Tourism and culture, Government of India, New Delhi, email: tourismminister at nic.in Shri. V. S. Achuthanandan, Chief Minister, Government of Kerala, Govt. Secretariat, Thiruvananthapuram, email: chiefminister at kerala.gov.in Shri. Kodiyeri Balakrishnan, Minister for Tourism Kerala, Govt. Secretariat, Thiruvananthapuram, email: minister-home at kerala.gov.in Shri. Shilabhadra Banerjee, Secretary, Ministry of Tourism, Government of India, New Delhi, email: sectour at nic.in Dr. Venu V. IAS, Secretary of Tourism, Government of Kerala Thiruvananthapuram, email: venu at keralatourism.org. Alternatively, you may also visit UK Based Tourism Concern website: http://www.tourismconcern.org.uk/index.php?page=efax where a facility for electronic fax to post protest to The Chief Minister of Kerala and Minister of Tourism is provided. From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 24 10:57:21 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:57:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810232121j46bd3afey40a3c582be954ad6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220524p72246ee2x9b67e9195f936d59@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810232121j46bd3afey40a3c582be954ad6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E87461E-DCCB-41D0-A84C-0D466E2AB074@sarai.net> Pawan, In your post to Shivam you said - >> I am just asking you to clarify whether your details about 5% >> reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra >> or any state is true. Here are four references, with appropriate citations (below) on the subject of 'quotas' for admission of Kashmiri Pandit migrant candidates to educational institutions in different states (Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Karnataka). I see nothing wrong with them, just as I see nothing wrong with affirmative action initiatives in educational institutions for dalit, tribal and OBC students. Whosoever suffers social disabilities should be entitled to affirmative action in a caring society. I have nothing against Kashmiri Pandit migrants being entitled to affirmative action, for the same reason that i have nothing against Bangladeshi Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist migrants to Delhi or any other part of India being entitled (as I hope they will be one day) to affirmative action. Whosoever suffers due to migration, or social or political reasons, or whosoever's migration occurs because of suffering should be entitled to care and hospitality by the host society. I believe this to be perfectly reasonable and humane. Coming to details, which you demand, you will notice that there is a specific mention of upto 5% (reservation) for Kashmiri Pandit students in non technical courses in Karnataka. I do hope that now you will consider offering the list, and Shivam Vij an apology for suggesting that he has been biased against Kashmiri Pandits while bringing up the subject of 'reservations' and acted as a 'compulsive liar'. Clearly, as the sources below indicate, he has not acted as a compulsive liar. In this case, it turns out that you have a bias against looking for available sources that go against your self imposed image of Kashmiri Pandits being the eternal and only victims in our midst. Their sufferings do not diminish simply because they are not the only ones to suffer. Please avoid making charges of this nature in the future. You do your community and its cause a great deal of disservice by these outbursts. Please check that you are not making a fool of yourself all over again before the next time you hit send after writing a post addressed to this listl. You do this way too often and I really feel bad for you. I would heartily recommend a degree of restraint to you. I also hope that Aditya Raj Kaul, whose political agenda in Delhi University Student politics has featured a heavy accent against the issue of 'reservations' will consider carefully the fact that his argument against reservations can also extend to an argument against reservations for Kashmiri Pandit students. Perhaps, for the sake of consistency, he could either think of making a case against reservations for Kashmiri pandit migrant students within appropriate forums, such as 'Roots in Kashmir', or on the other hand, turn his considerable activist experience in a generally 'pro-reservation' direction, or at least refrain from commenting on the issue of reservations altogether. Either way, it is never too late to change one's mind. Of course, he need not, because continued hypocrisy (which works well in tandem with a loqacious self promotional agenda) is a perfectly valid political option, especially given the currently prevailing political culture in our glorious republic. Shuddha --------------------------------- 1. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Maharashtra Educational Institutions a) Extract from Report on Internal Displacement.org "Maharashtra Government has made reservation of seats for children of citizens displaced from J&K due to terrorist violence and children of officers belonging to I.A.S., I.P.S. and other officers and staff belonging to military and paramilitary forces transferred to J&K to deal with terrorist activities in the State, in technical institutions in the filed [sic] of Engineering, Pharmacy, Architecture, etc., both at the degree and diploma levels. For this purpose, every diploma/degree level institution (whether Government aided or not) is permitted to create one extra seat for each course over and above the normal capacity of the institution and these seats cannot be allotted to students of any other category. However, no relaxation in eligibility conditions as prescribed by the concerned authority has been made. The domicile restriction has been removed for Kashmiri migrant students. Admission in general educational courses is also being provided subject to normal eligibility conditions being fulfilled." b) Extract on reservations for Kashmiri Pandits in Maharashtra from story in Frontline The Distress of the Displaced by Naunidhi Kaur in New Delhi Frontline, Volume 19 - Issue 23, November 09 - 22 2002 "Now, the Kashmiri Pandit organisations have unabashedly hitched on to the Shiv Sena bandwagon. They remain grateful to Sena chief Bal Thackeray for helping the community out. While in power, the Shiv Sena had instituted quotas for Kashmiri Pandits in colleges in Maharashtra. Pandit organisations in Delhi are particularly sore about the Bharatiya Janata Party not doing anything to revive the registration process for migrant identity cards." 2. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Madhya Pradesh Educational Institutions Extract from Report on Madhya Pradesh on Internal Displacement.org "One seat has been reserved for Kashmiri migrants in each technical institution viz. Engineering, Polytechnics and [Industrial Training Institutes]. For general education there is no restriction in the State." 3. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Karnataka Educational Institutions Extract from Report in the Hindu, December 20, 2004 Quota for Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges The Hindu, Monday, December 20, 2004 "BANGALORE, DEC. 19. One seat each in all technical and professional colleges in the State will be reserved for Kashmiri migrant students, the Chief Minister, N. Dharam Singh, announced here on Sunday. In non-technical programmes such as B.A./B.Com./B.Sc./BCA/Computer Science, up to five per cent of seats over and above the approved intake in colleges will be given to wards of Kashmiri migrants, Mr. Singh said. He was speaking at the Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits" organised by the All India Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the Kashmiri Hindu Samithi, Karnataka. The seats in colleges offered to Kashmiris that remain vacant will be filled by other candidates, he added. Mr. Singh said that the Government would give Rs. 25 lakhs towards the construction of Kashmir Bhavan in the city." 4. Reflections on Reservations for Kashmiri Pandits by a Kashmiri Pandit Search Kashmir Blog Quota and Kashmiri Pandits "Why can’t we see things for what they are? We got quota in Maharashtra because it had a Hindu government and they tried to cash in on the Hindu vote by making it a ‘Hindi cause’. Its all politics, nothing more, we were exploited, made a pawn in the great game and nothing more. They had no love lost for Kashmiri Pandits. Now we have Gujarat government giving quota. I hate Mr. Modi; he is the other side of the same communal coin. We were the poster boys of consequences of Islamic terror. In return, we got ‘freebies’ and we made the most of our situations. We don’t have to be apologetic about it. A lot of good did come out of these freebies. However, at the same time we don’t have to be thankful for it. They had their political goals and we had a life to look forward to. I did my B.E. due to quota in Maharashtra but I don’t care much about this fact because I know that the system abused me and in return, I abused it back. Quota in our case is nothing but abuse of system. Quality and ability are superseded by need and requirement. How long do we need it? Do we stop when we can afford 3-4 lakhs to get a seat? Do you think we would be able to stop? Won’t we think of that 3-4 lakhs as a saving and instead use it for some other so called ‘worthy cause’ like Weddings etc. How do you think KPs in Jammu could afford to build houses in Jammu? Should we be apologetic for that? Well, I am not. I did what I had to do and I did it my way. If anything, I am concerned about the price we are paying for having a quota system in the first place. The quality always pays the price for quantity. I know I would have performed better had I known that there is no quota to get me through the day. But I am hopelessly optimistic that each would find his own way. Quota isn’t a simple issue (nothing related to Kashmir is simple), I still remember a Young K.P guy who came to teach us chemistry in school during 12th. He was a bright fellow but I could see that he was dejected with life. He gave his 12th living in a camp. He himself told me once that he could not be a B.E. because during his time they did not have a quota system and the no. of seats were too few. So he did B.sc and took up teaching. Therefore, quota or rather the absence of quota had an immitigable effect on his life. Bottom-line: Make the most of what life has to offer you. Quota does not necessary mean that you are bad but don’t let it ruin your real education. We can spend all our life getting educated. Don’t make yourself cannon fodder for greater political causes. From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Fri Oct 24 12:59:12 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 24 Oct 2008 07:29:12 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] action against offenders Message-ID: <20081024072912.22551.qmail@f4mail-234-230.rediffmail.com> Dear Shuddha, We have been witness to too much of ‘intellectual’ threats and counter threats to our cerebral hygiene. I must confess that mails/‘intellectual’ exchanges have crossed all proportions in terms of the slangs and other offensive language and portrays CSDS in bad light so it’s high time to take punitive action to restore some sanity and hope. Radhakrishnan On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at it > (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) > 2. Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity > ( Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् ) > 3. Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik (Aditya Raj Kaul) > 4. Re: Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter Bamiyan, the > HinduKush and Kakrak (inder salim) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:04:02 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] I don't oppose your thinking; but spit at > it >To: Real Unreal >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; delsp=yes; format=flowed > >Dear Real Unreal, > >The function of a list like this is not to provide any person with >the means to exhibit their chosen perversity and personal fetish, >there are several spaces in the online world where those desires can >be fulfilled, consensually. This list is not one of those spaces. > >I fail to see how or why listening to someone like you insult other >people's mothers and sisters, or even yourself, with misogynist >outbursts can in any way help me understand the world. All it helps >me understand is that you are the kind of person who hides behind an >assumed handle while they hurl abuse at the world. > >It sort of reminds me of the respectable middle class men in public >transport buses in Delhi who grope girls and women in the anonymity >of a crowd and then enforce a rigid patriarchy at home and insist >that their wives, daughters and sisters 'cover themselves up'. They >too, love to invoke the mothers and sisters of others while invoking >the defence of their little patch of proprietary masculine pride. > >If you want to exhibit your well protected machismo, I suggest that >you take your fake bravado elsewhere. Or else we can always take >measures to ensure that you are indeed, taken elsewhere. > >There is an emerging consensus on this list that a certain kind of >language be avoided. I propose that anyone who uses sexist and >misogynist language (by which I mean expressions insulting to women >as women) be ejected from the list. I have a great degree of >tolerance for almost every kind of everyday fascism, which I am happy >to combat with arguments, but I do draw the line at the kind of >thuggery that seeks to intimidate everyone on this list by its >willingness to insult people on the basis of gender. Especially as I >think that this base level of consciousness does not need to be >dignified by the labour of counter-argumentation and debate. > >As in real life, so too on this list, a well timed and precisely >targetted blow that silences the speaker of sexist speech, is in my >opinion the best antidote in circumstances such as the ones that you >seem to enjoy provoking. If this list were a physical space, I would >know exactly what to do if someone crossed the line with regard to >misogyny, as I think you have done. > >We have had situations like this before, and we have had to reprimand >the speakers of sexist and misogynist speech, even if the speakers >were saying what they had said in the face of the worst kind of >communal hate speech. In that event, both were reprimanded, with >equal severity. Luckily, we did not face this kind of offensive >behaviour until you made your real-unreal persona blossom into the >midst of our consciousness. > >Since this is a virtual space, our options are limited. The well >timed blow has to take a virtual form. But please understand that it >does not exclude the possibility of a summary exclusion of the person >who offends by speaking in a misogynist and abusive manner, not just >by their name, and list handle, but also by their IP address. > >regards > >Shuddha > > > > > >On 22-Oct-08, at 6:20 PM, Real Unreal wrote: > > > looks my dear friend > > this all discussion on the list on different topics is not doing one > > good thing, it exposes the hidden intentions of participants. > > > > besides this what is like is that people should take about their > > intense personal lives. which they will not. all they do is ' > > representation' of this or that. > > > > hindu , muslim, kashmiri, bengali, etc etc, this sometimes is boring > > for me. but since nothing is happening around, so let it be. > > > > i enjoy reading this and that. > > > > your choice of slangs ( gali ) is bascially about our real intentions > > again. now see Adiyta sahib can not write the way you write. he writes > > on the list as if it a havan puja, so can not see the small wet > > erection under dothi of the pandit shouting mantras. > > > > you are free from that. but can we return to the language which is > > actually in use out there. > > > > now see how much chootiya, behenchod ( sister fucker ) is around but > > we never hear that on the list, as if it is prohibited. > > may be if everybody uses that kind of language, the sponsors might be > > close it down. > > > > anyway, by let us be chootiya, by not using chootiya so often, > > > > what is important here, to my mind is that we need not look like those > > journalists who talk decent in the newspapers, but when they meet in > > private spaces and use some other language > > > > and if it is the same, then we have better articles on all subjects, > > in the print media out there > > > > why we need the list, if we can not use slangs publicly, > > > > who is afraid of being known as chootiya in the LIst. we all > > chootiyas, let us declare it first and then debate the serious issues, > > in a very funny way. > > > > you need not agree > > > > ru > > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Tapas Ray > > wrote: > >> RL, > >> > >> Thanks for your message. Unfortunately, though I am moderately > >> proficient in Hindi, I can't follow quite a it of what you say, > >> probably because its in the Roman script and I can't associate it > >> with > >> words that are actually known to me. I do understand some, but not > >> all. I think I understand the first sentence, in which you seem to > >> say > >> that I have a clean heart. I must thank you for your kind words if my > >> interpretation is correct. On this assumption, I am curious to know > >> what it is in my writing that brought you to such a positive > >> conclusion about me. > >> > >> Please do not hesitate to let me know if my interpretation is wrong, > >> and you meant something less flattering. I will not mind at all. > >> Yesterday, another list member wrote offlist, in very indirect terms, > >> that he didn't like the present tone of my posts. I asked him to > >> clarify, assuring him that I would not be offended. He took my word > >> for it and told me what he meant. I explained why I was writing > >> what I > >> was writing, apologising for the discomfort I had caused, and I think > >> he was surprised by my reaction. > >> > >> The point of this long paragraph is to assure you that you can > >> tell me > >> whatever you want - positive, negative, neutral, downright "gali", > >> etc. - in English, so that I understand. > >> > >> As for the messages you have posted on the list, I am a little > >> concerned that the many foreigners who are on the list will probably > >> feel left out by your Hindi/Urdu messages. I would urge you to > >> consider this. > >> > >> I will look forward to reading English translations of your posts ... > >> leaving out - on the list - things like "labda" that I seem to have > >> seen, and assume refers to what most of us know as the male genital. > >> But I would appreciate it if you would take the trouble to send me, > >> offlist, the "uncensored" version, as I shall definitely enjoy the > >> flavour, even if it is a "gali" meant for me. I love gali and have > >> enjoyed exchanging choice ones with my friends. > >> > >> Thanks again, > >> > >> Tapas > >> > >> > >> > >> 2008/10/19 Real Unreal : > >>> achha hai, tum dil kay bohot saaf ho, > >>> > >>> magar kay karan yeh naddan log kuch zayada hi raita phala rahain > >>> hai > >>> > >>> bazar mein akal biknay ko hoti, to ak ad pav is aditya londay ko > >>> pila > >>> data, acha kaam kar sakta hai, magar galat jamat mein lagta hai fus > >>> gaya hi. chalo, hindustan ki kistam, asi hi sahi > >>> > >>> ru > >>> > >>> On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Tapas Ray > >>> wrote: > >>>> It's just about Aditya. > >>>> > >>>> By the way, I love your chosen name. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 2008/10/18 Real Unreal : > >>>>> was this only because of spitting by Aditya, or is it a > >>>>> fragment of a > >>>>> large piece? > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Tapas Ray > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> So much spit! Bottomless well of spittle surrounded by date > >>>>>> palms. > >>>>>> Trees bent low under the weight of large red pomegranates (not > >>>>>> sure) > >>>>>> bursting with pinkish paan-tinged spittle in the middle of a > >>>>>> burning > >>>>>> desert of pseudosecular bandits. The weary soldier, battered and > >>>>>> bloody, survivor of horrific ideological battles, parks his > >>>>>> donkey > >>>>>> with red sindoor swastikas painted on its sides. He sends the > >>>>>> bucket > >>>>>> rattling down into the well, from which emanates a cry of > >>>>>> despair - "I > >>>>>> am yours. Spare me, please! do not drink me!" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2008/10/18 Aditya Raj Kaul : > >>>>>>> As List members have been time and again saying, INDER SALIM > >>>>>>> or whatever you > >>>>>>> name is, you suffer from some psychological problem. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Now, in this latest e-mail; you indirectly compare yourself > >>>>>>> with Lal Ded. > >>>>>>> What can be worse ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would surely spit at a person's thinking; who belongs to my > >>>>>>> own community; > >>>>>>> has suffered the brunt of Islamic Terrorism; and still acts > >>>>>>> deaf and dumb. I > >>>>>>> would spit at his thinking when he acts ignorant or his name, > >>>>>>> sur-name, > >>>>>>> community, country and even religion. I repeat I would spit > >>>>>>> at you thinking. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Does that make you happy ? The List Members know who said it > >>>>>>> now - LOD & > >>>>>>> CLEAR. Happy ??? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And, I'm no younger brother of yours. Kindly stay away. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm and will always be a prod Kashmiri Pandit. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Love > >>>>>>> Aditya Raj Kaul > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _________________________________________ > >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >>>>>> with subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >>>>>> list > >>>>>> List archive: > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > >Shuddhabrata Sengupta >The Sarai Programme at CSDS >Raqs Media Collective >shuddha at sarai.net >www.sarai.net >www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:15:05 +0530 > From: " Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् " >Subject: [Reader-list] Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity >To: "sarai list" >Message-ID: > <9c06aab30810230945q7ea70ff9g6d1cdbb3b6ab8e1 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > >Whither India: Qualitative change in Polity > >Ram Puniyani > >Last six months have been most disturbing on the Indian political >scene. As far as the values of integration are concerned they are >being attacked very severely by terrorist-communal forces. First, we >saw the series of bomb blasts, Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Delhi and >Malegaon. It was projected by the authorities that all these acts are >due to Jehadi Muslim groups that police have succeeded in cracking the >network. One outcome of this was the Batla house encounter in which >police, bravely killed the terrorists. It put out a version that now >the terror ring has been busted and kingpins have been arrested. It is >another matter that later the relevant-uncomforta ble questions were >raised and satisfactory answers to these were not forthcoming. On the >top of this the claim that Malegaon blasts were done by SIMI proved to >be false as the investigation showed the possibility of ABVP/Bajrang >Dal being involved in same. > >During the same time two Bajrang dal Activists got killed while making >bomb in Kanpur, two activists of Hindu Jagran Samiti were involved in >placing the bombs in Thane due to which seven people got injured. >During this time again in Tenkasi, Tamil Nadu, the bombs went off near >RSS office and as usual the cry of wolf was made, but the wolf here >had different shades than what RSS wanted to propagate, as most of >those planting the bombs turned out to be Hindus, with affiliation, >which are not difficult to guess. > >During the same time the anti Christian violence was orchestrated and >launched in Orissa to begin with, later on spilling to Karnataka. The >pretext first was that Christians have beaten Swami Laxmananand >(December 2007) and later that Christians have killed the swami. >Interestingly a Maoist group claimed to have killed him but the RSS >combine stated that they don't believe in the claim of Maoists, >meaning there by that they have the right to decide who the culprit >is! > >The third tragedy related to the Hindu Muslim violence in Burhanpur, >Dhulia and few other places on the slightest pretext of tearing a >banner or some such. What is disturbing is the way things are shaping >in the country. The anti Muslim hate propaganda, which has been >sustained on various myths have gradually been taking he shape of deep >rooted perceptions. Earlier lot of planning and bigger pretext was >needed to unleash the violence, now even a small pretext suffices to >initiate the mayhem. Some of the properties are well marked in advance >for destroying. The loss of lives of minorities is many times more >than their presence in population. > >The stereotyping of Muslim community through reporting of acts of >terror has boosted the negative perception of the community in a >serious way. At the same time the there is a realization that there >are two set of laws, that they will not get justice and that their >feeling of insecurity in the society is going up by leaps and bounds. >One does not know whether this disturbs the ruling coalition or not. >For Muslim minorities to keep faith in the Governemnt in such >circumstances is not difficult, it is impossible. > >Christian minority was not the target till quite late. As the hate >propaganda based on make believe forcible conversions, allurement, >insult of our gods, foreign money keep percolating in the society, and >a silent sanction for attacking them started building up. Now even a >slightest pretext is sufficient to undertake the despicable violence >against the community. > >This is a clear case as to how already a social mind set has been >created, through word of mouth propaganda and media where by the >minorities have been demonized and now the violence against them has >become the order of the day. Even the global phenomenon of terrorism >and local phenomenon has added on to the same and in this case Islamic >terrorism, and 'all terrorists are Muslims' has been made the fodder >of social thinking. As such, starting from Golwalkar, RSS's >formulation that Muslims and Christians are threats to Hindu nation, >to the present day, there is a consistent worsening of the level of >demonization of minorities. > >These entire social phenomenons are raising a deeper question related >to our democracy. Democracy not only ensures that are citizens are >treated equally it also stands for giving affirmative action for >weaker sections of society. As such the litmus test of democracy is >the welfare and security of minorities. Here we see that as to how the >marginal stream which came up during freedom movement and kept aloof > from it, the Hindutva vehicle, RSS, has been successfully working, >using the democratic space to abolish, precisely the democratic values >which gave it a space to stand. While totally defamed after Gandhi >murder by one of its followers, its acceptability began with >Jayapraksh Narayan letting it run the movement, which led to emergency >and later formation of Janata Party. RSS began by spreading hate >against Muslims and Christians, formulated by its founders and penned >by its ideologue, M.S. Golwalkar. Golwalkar instructed that Muslims, >Christians and > Communists are the threat to Hindu nation. The RSS shakhhas kept >spreading this ceaselessly and it became a part of social common sense >over a period of time. > >RSS also planted its swayamsevaks in different walks of social and >political life, education, media, police, bureaucracy etc. Once its >political child, Jana Sangh became part of Janata party, it ensured >that large number of swaymsevaks become part of media establishment. >And later during NDA regime, this game of theirs' had a field day. >Capping these efforts through Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, social >engineering got intensified in Adivasi areas. With US administration >coining the word 'Islamic terrorism' and that propaganda that >Madrassas are the dens of training terrorists; RSS completed its >indoctrination module. > >The deadly poison it spread against minorities first spread hate and >created divides in the communities, leading to 'hate other', which in >turn forms the base of communal violence. Communal violence in Indian >context gets assistance from the communalized state apparatus, >sections of police in particular leading to polarization of >communities and rise to political power of the communal party. The >conveyer belt begins from demonizing other and leads to the RSS's >political child becoming politically strong. That's how a political >party which managed two seats in parliament in1984 elections has >become formidable electoral force today, knocking the democratic >values and imposing the religion based nationalism. > >Though not in power in center, its machinations are polarizing the >society all over, creating divisions in the society, rampaging the >rule of law and paving the way for creeping fascism. What is >happening today is reminder of how things happened in Germany, with >Hitler leading the carnage. Beginning with hate Jews and then >Christian minorities, then Communists and trade unionists paved the >way for the stifling atmosphere of fascism, authoritarian state with >social base. Today we seem to be helplessly watching a similar >situation. While RSS combine is behaving like a rampaging bull, >Bajrang Dal planting bombs, its workers carrying arms openly, >distributing trishuls en masse, the state ruled by so called secular >combine, UPA alliance seems to be a helpless observer, as the whole >machinery itself seems to be affected by the communal virus. > >Where do we go from here? Opposition to this fascist politics, >fighting it tooth and nail cannot be postponed by a single minute. The >time has come that all those believing in democracy and welfare of all >need to come together and put and end to the politics of hate. Popular >front at social and political level is the need of the day. The power >seeker political formations may not look beyond their personal gains >but the social movements need to put the pressure in the right >direction for these political people to hang together before we are >hanged separately. It is not just a question of opposition to one >political formation. The question is can we let the RSS version of >Hindusim destroy the Kabir and Gandhi version of Hinduism and >religion? The question is can we let the innocent minorities be the >scapegoats for the fascist politics to keep on going? Should we let >the democratic space be usurped by those wanting to bring in a nation >state in the name of > religion? > >Whether India will nurture the values of freedom movement and strive >for human rights of all depends on us, as in no time in past the very >concept of democracy has been stifled as much as we are witnessing >today. > >-- >Issues in Secular politics > >October 2008 II > >ram.puniyani@ gmail.com >www.pluralindia. com > >Can be circulated/publishe d/translated etc. > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > From: "Aditya Raj Kaul" >Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik >To: "sarai list" >Message-ID: > <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol > >check here - http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > >-- >Aditya Raj Kaul > >Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:31 +0530 > From: "inder salim" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter > Bamiyan, the HinduKush and Kakrak >To: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: > <47e122a70810231041kdffedc5pbf9b424ae6f18904 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Dear All >Just returned from JNU ( Arts Aesthetic Dept.) after listening the >lecture presentation by Prof. Deborah. > >It was very interesting presentaion from all perspectives. The most >impressive thing was about the use of Oil by Artists in Bamiyan on >the surface while executing images of Buddha. > >To say so, she said, it was possible only after a Japanese scientist >had done a extensive research on the painted layers in Bamiyan >The use of masks on the carving on the 55 meter tall carvings was >monumental in the valley of Bamiyan during 7th century, along with >other painted caves. The presence of coins similar to masks and other >urns and images was breathtaking. She showed how Shivasitic traditions >had come from Indian via Kashmir before and after and dominated the >Hindu Kush valley. The Turks indeed ruled nearly for 200 years and the >coinage of that time significantly depicting the use of Roman script >as well. > >The elongaged ears, which we are familiar with Shiva was quite visible >on the painting of Buddha in Bamiyan. > >Having said, thins, one only regrets the Anglo American policies in >this region which have resulted into the destruction of the >magnificent art works, > >love >is > >On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Dean School of Arts and Aesthetics > wrote: > > School of Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University > > > > Thursday, 23.10.08, 4pm > > > > Lecture by Prof. Deborah Klimburg-Salter Bamiyan, the Hindu Kush and > > Kakrak > > Klimburg-Salter has published widely on Buddhist art of the Himalayas > > and Central Asia. She is Professor for Asian Art History at the > > University of Vienna, Director of the National Research Network "The > > Cultural History of the Western Himalaya from 8th Century", President of > > the European Association of South Asian Archaeology (EASAA) and a Member > > of the UNESCO International Coordination Committee (ICC) for the > > safeguarding of Afghanistan's Cultural Heritage since its inception in > > 2003. This lecture is held in connection with the special course on > > Gandhara and Afghanistan in collaboration with the Institute of AdvaAc > > > > > > > > > > > > **********************************************************************************************If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient(s), please be advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this information is strictly prohibited. Whilst Jawharlal Nehru University aims to keep its network free from viruses, you are strongly advised to check this e-mail and any attachments for viruses, as the University shall NOT ACCEPT any liability with regard to computer viruses transferred by way of e-mail.**********************************************************************************************This message has been scanned for viruses by GWGUARDIAN > > > > > >-- > >http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 127 >******************************************** From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 14:07:48 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:07:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <7E87461E-DCCB-41D0-A84C-0D466E2AB074@sarai.net> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220524p72246ee2x9b67e9195f936d59@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810232121j46bd3afey40a3c582be954ad6@mail.gmail.com> <7E87461E-DCCB-41D0-A84C-0D466E2AB074@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810240137v16326a2aj79c0b38d16d07888@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha , Thank you for your mail . I do nothing but apprecaite the way you mix words which suit your ideology. In this case I must say you do a great dis service to SARAI by manufacturing stories and mixing words. Please check up the prood you have provided yourself. In this case it must be noted of how you have changed the subject line while refering to "Kashmiri Pandits" while as when anyone would go theorugh your "proof" of news links , the stories do mention that reservations are there , but it also does mention that the reservation is for Kashmiri Migrants. I know you have a specific knowledge about Kashmir and Kashmiris . What i did not know that you were unaware that there were many caste and groups of people who are registered as Migrants from Kashmir. And you must be aware of how many Kashmiri Muslims take advantage of this whether they are genuinely victimes of terrorism or not. Also if at all in some specific course some reservation is metioned , that does not make a rule to generalise it. Mr Shuddha , it needs a brave and a person of character to admit the wrong. Unfortunately both you and Shivam do not fit in any of these two. Now Shuddha , ypou owe an apology to come clean of what made you come to support Shivam or is it that you both are supporters of separatist Kashmiris and hence common friends. Some Mausere Bhai ....... Pawan Durani On 10/24/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Pawan, > > > In your post to Shivam you said - > > > I am just asking you to clarify whether your details about 5% > reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra > > or any state is true. > > > Here are four references, with appropriate citations (below) on the subject > of 'quotas' for admission of Kashmiri Pandit migrant candidates to > educational institutions in different states (Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh > and Karnataka). > > > I see nothing wrong with them, just as I see nothing wrong with affirmative > action initiatives in educational institutions for dalit, tribal and OBC > students. Whosoever suffers social disabilities should be entitled to > affirmative action in a caring society. I have nothing against Kashmiri > Pandit migrants being entitled to affirmative action, for the same reason > that i have nothing against Bangladeshi Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist migrants > to Delhi or any other part of India being entitled (as I hope they will be > one day) to affirmative action. > > > Whosoever suffers due to migration, or social or political reasons, or > whosoever's migration occurs because of suffering should be entitled to care > and hospitality by the host society. I believe this to be perfectly > reasonable and humane. > > > Coming to details, which you demand, you will notice that there is a > specific mention of upto 5% (reservation) for Kashmiri Pandit students in > non technical courses in Karnataka. > > > I do hope that now you will consider offering the list, and Shivam Vij an > apology for suggesting that he has been biased against Kashmiri Pandits > while bringing up the subject of 'reservations' and acted as a 'compulsive > liar'. Clearly, as the sources below indicate, he has not acted as a > compulsive liar. In this case, it turns out that you have a bias against > looking for available sources that go against your self imposed image of > Kashmiri Pandits being the eternal and only victims in our midst. Their > sufferings do not diminish simply because they are not the only ones to > suffer. Please avoid making charges of this nature in the future. You do > your community and its cause a great deal of disservice by these outbursts. > Please check that you are not making a fool of yourself all over again > before the next time you hit send after writing a post addressed to this > listl. You do this way too often and I really feel bad for you. I would > heartily recommend a degree of restraint to you. > > > I also hope that Aditya Raj Kaul, whose political agenda in Delhi > University Student politics has featured a heavy accent against the issue of > 'reservations' will consider carefully the fact that his argument against > reservations can also extend to an argument against reservations for > Kashmiri Pandit students. > > > Perhaps, for the sake of consistency, he could either think of making a > case against reservations for Kashmiri pandit migrant students within > appropriate forums, such as 'Roots in Kashmir', or on the other hand, turn > his considerable activist experience in a generally 'pro-reservation' > direction, or at least refrain from commenting on the issue of reservations > altogether. Either way, it is never too late to change one's mind. > > > Of course, he need not, because continued hypocrisy (which works well in > tandem with a loqacious self promotional agenda) is a perfectly valid > political option, especially given the currently prevailing political > culture in our glorious republic. > > > Shuddha > > > --------------------------------- > > > 1. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Maharashtra Educational > Institutions > > > a) Extract from Report on Internal Displacement.org > > < > http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument > > > > > "Maharashtra Government has made reservation of seats for children of > citizens displaced from J&K due to terrorist violence and children of > officers belonging to I.A.S., I.P.S. and other officers and staff belonging > to military and paramilitary forces transferred to J&K to deal with > terrorist activities in the State, in technical institutions in the filed > [sic] of Engineering, Pharmacy, Architecture, etc., both at the degree and > diploma levels. For this purpose, every diploma/degree level institution > (whether Government aided or not) is permitted to create one extra seat for > each course over and above the normal capacity of the institution and these > seats cannot be allotted to students of any other category. However, no > relaxation in eligibility conditions as prescribed by the concerned > authority has been made. The domicile restriction has been removed for > Kashmiri migrant students. Admission in general educational courses is also > being provided subject to normal eligibility conditions being fulfilled." > > > b) Extract on reservations for Kashmiri Pandits in Maharashtra from story > in Frontline < > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122005301800.htm> > > > The Distress of the Displaced > > by Naunidhi Kaur > > in New Delhi > > Frontline, Volume 19 - Issue 23, November 09 - 22 2002 > > > "Now, the Kashmiri Pandit organisations have unabashedly hitched on to the > Shiv Sena bandwagon. They remain grateful to Sena chief Bal Thackeray for > helping the community out. While in power, the Shiv Sena had instituted > quotas for Kashmiri Pandits in colleges in Maharashtra. Pandit organisations > in Delhi are particularly sore about the Bharatiya Janata Party not doing > anything to revive the registration process for migrant identity cards." > > > 2. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Madhya Pradesh Educational > Institutions > > > Extract from Report on Madhya Pradesh on Internal Displacement.org > > < > http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument > > > > > "One seat has been reserved for Kashmiri migrants in each technical > institution viz. Engineering, Polytechnics and [Industrial Training > Institutes]. For general education there is no restriction in the State." > > > 3. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Karnataka Educational > Institutions > > > Extract from Report in the Hindu, December 20, 2004 > > > > > Quota for Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges > > The Hindu, Monday, December 20, 2004 > > > "BANGALORE, DEC. 19. One seat each in all technical and professional > colleges in the State will be reserved for Kashmiri migrant students, the > Chief Minister, N. Dharam Singh, announced here on Sunday. > > > In non-technical programmes such as B.A./B.Com./B.Sc./BCA/Computer Science, > up to five per cent of seats over and above the approved intake in colleges > will be given to wards of Kashmiri migrants, Mr. Singh said. > > > He was speaking at the Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits" > organised by the All India Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the Kashmiri Hindu > Samithi, Karnataka. > > > The seats in colleges offered to Kashmiris that remain vacant will be > filled by other candidates, he added. Mr. Singh said that the Government > would give Rs. 25 lakhs towards the construction of Kashmir Bhavan in the > city." > > > 4. Reflections on Reservations for Kashmiri Pandits by a Kashmiri Pandit > > > Search Kashmir Blog > > > > > > Quota and Kashmiri Pandits > > > "Why can't we see things for what they are? We got quota in Maharashtra > because it had a Hindu government and they tried to cash in on the Hindu > vote by making it a 'Hindi cause'. Its all politics, nothing more, we were > exploited, made a pawn in the great game and nothing more. > > > They had no love lost for Kashmiri Pandits. Now we have Gujarat government > giving quota. I hate Mr. Modi; he is the other side of the same communal > coin. We were the poster boys of consequences of Islamic terror. In return, > we got 'freebies' and we made the most of our situations. We don't have to > be apologetic about it. A lot of good did come out of these freebies. > However, at the same time we don't have to be thankful for it. They had > their political goals and we had a life to look forward to. I did my B.E. > due to quota in Maharashtra but I don't care much about this fact because I > know that the system abused me and in return, I abused it back. Quota in our > case is nothing but abuse of system. Quality and ability are superseded by > need and requirement. How long do we need it? Do we stop when we can afford > 3-4 lakhs to get a seat? Do you think we would be able to stop? Won't we > think of that 3-4 lakhs as a saving and instead use it for some other so > called 'worthy cause' like Weddings etc. How do you think KPs in Jammu could > afford to build houses in Jammu? Should we be apologetic for that? > > > Well, I am not. I did what I had to do and I did it my way. If anything, I > am concerned about the price we are paying for having a quota system in the > first place. The quality always pays the price for quantity. I know I would > have performed better had I known that there is no quota to get me through > the day. But I am hopelessly optimistic that each would find his own way. > > > Quota isn't a simple issue (nothing related to Kashmir is simple), I still > remember a Young K.P guy who came to teach us chemistry in school during > 12th. He was a bright fellow but I could see that he was dejected with life. > He gave his 12th living in a camp. He himself told me once that he could not > be a B.E. because during his time they did not have a quota system and the > no. of seats were too few. So he did B.sc and took up teaching. Therefore, > quota or rather the absence of quota had an immitigable effect on his life. > > > Bottom-line: Make the most of what life has to offer you. Quota does not > necessary mean that you are bad but don't let it ruin your real education. > We can spend all our life getting educated. Don't make yourself cannon > fodder for greater political causes. > > > > > From difusion at medialab-prado.es Fri Oct 24 14:35:11 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:05:11 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Collaborators> VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY Message-ID: <49018FC7.4030002@medialab-prado.es> Call for Collaborators VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY *Call for Collaborators' Deadline: October 31, 2008 **November 3 through 18, 2008 · Medialab-Prado (Madrid, Spain)* * * Directed by: José Luis de Vicente. Tutors: Bestiario and Fabien Girardin. Medialab-Prado issues a call for all those interested in taking part in the VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY project development workshop, by collaborating in any of the teams that will develop the selected proposals (see link below). Visualizar'08 will also include a Seminar Program and a showcase of the developed prototypes. The workshop constitutes an horizontal collaborative work environment, knowledge interchange and theoretical-practical training among teachers, authors and collaborators. Project proposals have been selected through an international open call (http://medialab-prado.es/article/visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_proyectos) Profile of collaborators: maths, computer graphics, 3D, graphic design, web design, advertising, journalism, communication, didactics, web programming, Processing, Actionscript, Java, Javascript, HTML/CSS, design and database programming, PHP and MySQL, OpenVisuals, models of spatial representation, molecular biology, environmental chemistry, toxicology, management of GIS data, parsing of RSS data and google queries, among others. * Call Guidelines and Registration Form (English/Spanish):* http://medialab-prado.es/article/taller_visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_colaboradores *Selected Proposals **(English/Spanish)**:* http://medialab-prado.es/article/visualizar08_proyectos *General Workshop Guidelines ** **(English/Spanish)**:* http://medialab-prado.es/article/taller_visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_colaboradores * More information: *visualizar at medialab-prado.es Organized by: Medialab-Prado (Madrid City Council-Department of Arts). In collaboration with FECYT (Spanish Ministry of Science and Innovation). Supported by Madri+d. *More information: www.medialab-prado.es* *MEDIALAB-PRADO* Plaza de las Letras C/ Alameda, 15 · 28014 Madrid (Spain) +34 913 692 303 info.m at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 14:50:32 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:50:32 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu and the bomb, new story for Congress to divert all attention away from its failure at governance. Message-ID: <667051.96007.qm@web94910.mail.in2.yahoo.com> It is worth noting that the investigative journalism with "our soueces" in police first broke out in none other than IBN channel of Rajdeep sardesai and Smitha Nair and investigative head, Sasi Kumar are the main investigators of the story. IBN channel did its sycophantic survey for pre polls in Karnataka, gujarath and the patent hate for BJP was evident for any impartial right thinking citizen of the nation. Unfortunate fall out of this survey was that an able, efficient social scientist became pawn for the game of sycophancy, the channel got adrevenue for BJP bashing in its survey from UPA and it never talked about the crores of income it earned by this sycophancy. Media houses playing ball with political ballgame with Congress is not new with deelip Cherian and Tom vadakkan who were non entities before , now Congress media in charges floating in crores, but wearing only khaddar for tv cameras. Shivam vij protege of "backward" caste leaders, is known for partisan journalism when he gets right type of food for his tummy be it with Kasmir seditions with separatists, or with night life in kasmir all paid by some one for the favours in journalism.  That after the results of polls the IBN channel tried its best to justify, even console itself is no secret that it had lost all credibilty as national channel with any morality. That it increased with item girls for the news anchoring with scantily dressed "journalists" is for all to see.When CNn has good sense and sensibilty in dress code for its anchors, ibn has trp as its credo to do whatever it takes, and is exploiting its anchors in dresses of item numbers.! Sagarika with dignified presence in the programme of the title face the nation is not to be seen now without revealing flabs even in traditional saree with triceps and midriff sagging for saga.!   In case this is not sufficient, IBN did a sting just as PM of the nation wanted proof for votes scam in N-deal. After the sting, it chose not to telecast the same when the channel found it would be more damaging to Congress with ahmed patel being totally exposed, along with broker amar Singh. be that may be, the brine takers of BJP MPs were not paragons of virtue, but evidence in the face of demand for it was available, but PM  chose to keep studied silence.!That the inquiry by house panel which was supposed to be post haste is not yet over is another issue.  Compare this with sting of NDTV channel of the "criminal" lawyers, who obstructed justice in the case , the ex MP, RK Anand and OI Khan, it has to be appreciated that the channel stood ground and also started realising that unless the individuals in system change to improve the system remains rotten.    By the way, right thinking citizens have made a note of advertisements in IBN channel of Agricilture ministry comgratulaying the farmers of great production, and delhi government dreams which started with boting season for N deal in parliament.! These did not appear in any other channels is worth the [rone or a sting operation.!   In the present instance,after spevial programme for mumbaikar Home minister by mumbaikars Rajdeep and Anubha praising him, gibing spon to jis image, it is time for fivert the attention from kamoa nagar and terror of deviant terrorists, hence this new investigative story, hindu terror.? Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 15:43:51 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:43:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on Internet; the picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided to share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my memory back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your protest early in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it was the same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later seen enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you mentioned were crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my business. :-) There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; things need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no intention to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath killer Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which you don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans against Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those MP's (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by the ACP of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was only that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a terrorist peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military personnel surrounded us there suddenly. Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; and moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls from Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at India Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some media sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken responsibility into this incident. We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, that is a coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, kidnapped and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the exodus of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and killed them on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; just because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to blame us and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your imagination friend :-) I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a terrorist being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand times before such a drastic step. Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always have a problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin Malik? Why shouldn't we protest? Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to JKLF Gang members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to protest that very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at Siri Fort. I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't know the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion of 60th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't understand where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. They must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; we were outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some doubts; please visit the following link which has photographs, details and even media cuttings of the event : - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for any apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we face on and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has constantly lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist Yasin Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star treatment, and put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify such killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India Gate. It was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his acts. I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly mention of supporting a terrorist. Why ? I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, inviting this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting 'Roots In Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire community' which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; why you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to campaign for this. Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is difficult to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 years now, Sonia. In exile, Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of Yasin > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of them had > anything to do with the attack on my car. > > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack was > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger about it a > year and a half later is shameful. > > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: > > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced > disappearances > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at Jantar > Mantar. > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself > included. > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the event. > > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the conscience > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or compensation, > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive allow us > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their last > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us for years. > > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just exhumed > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week before-- and > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a noisy > protest across the street. > > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah Geelani had > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to all MPs > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the public > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women weeping > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young Kashmiri > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. > > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate lawns > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the guesthouse > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I turned at > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half blinded > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the muck > out > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that the > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously meant > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek insignificantly. > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral damage. > The irony was not lost on me. > > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took more than > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined forever and > had > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the day of > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was grateful to > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew I could > have crashed into the circle or into another car. > > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which Aditya is > a > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will say how > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, and I have > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya betrayed > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. > > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest at the > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but heard > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show that > had > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I assume > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims of > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not countenance the > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of lies, > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that denounces > State > terrorism? > > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were targeted > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of Pandits > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims of > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by this > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the pain of > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to identify > with yours. > > > Sonia Jabbar > > > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > > To: sarai list > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > > > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol > > check here - > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > > -- > Aditya Raj > > Kaul > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & > > Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 15:52:03 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 03:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Where religion does not define identity Message-ID: <950257.1934.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Where religion does not define identity 23 Oct 2008, Radhika Oberoi, Times News Network NEW DELHI: Standing outside the dargah of Khawja Syed Qutbuddin Bakhtiyar Khaki on Thursday was a young girl her fingers intertwined wi th the filigreed windows that provide a glimpse of her beloved khawja's resting place. Her kohl-rimmed eyes were radiant as she muttered her prayers. Her name wasn't Zenat or Noor or Nusrat, but Savita. In the crowd of devotees there, one's religion was a mere technicality. The throng of Hindus and Muslims were celebrating Phool Walon ki Sair, and it was the Hindus, led by Lt Governor Tejendra Khanna, who laid a chadder made of flowers on the dargah, to mark the first day of the celebrations. Savita, apart from being a devotee, has for a good part of the evening, policed the rows of shoes that lay at the entrance to the dargah. "Mere pardade bhi yahan par jooton ki rakhwali karte the; is kaam mein sabse zyada sukoon mehsoos hota hai (My forefathers used to volunteer to look after the shoes of devotees; the menial task gave them, and now me, immense peace of mind).'' Mirza Mohtaram Bakht, secretary, Anjuman Sair-e-Gul Faroshan, organizer of the festivities, referred to the recent bomb blast in the area in hushed tones and said, "The festival is a clear message to the dividing forces that we are stronger than them. Look around you can you tell the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim?" Saddened by the fact that the urban, educated classes representatives of secular India know little about the festival that was popular in the Mughal era, but was banned by the British in 1942 before it was revived by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in 1961, he believes the media can play an important role in informing the young: "Tell them about Mehrauli, about the rich legacy of communal harmony that flowered here.'' Taking a cynical view of the kind of secularism brandished by political parties, he said, "Election kareeb aa gay to bhaichara ho gaya aisa nahin hona chahiye. (The elections shouldn't suddenly lead to brotherhood it should come from within.'' The Gaddi-e-Nashin of the dargah, Syed Fakhruddin, was equally forceful about the role of the youth: "Hum ne to apne umar guzar li hai, ab naujawanon ke haath mein hi desh khushhaal reh sakta hai (We're in the winter of our lives; it's up to the youth to lead the country to peace and harmony).'' For the youth who live in the area and have grown up with vivid memories of qawali nights, dances and plays, the current festivities are a bit subdued. Manish, a 24-year-old whose grandfather runs a jalebi shop in the lane outside the dargah, said, "We've shifted into the lane only recently. Before that my grandfather sold jalebis for over 40 years in the main market. He has often spoken of long queues outside his shop during the festivities.'' The conversation kept slipping back to the bomb blasts too fresh in the memories of residents to be glossed over. Manish, who also runs a tutorial next door to his grandfather's shop, firmly believes that a modern education is one way of combating militancy: "I teach Science and Maths to the kids here; hopefully, they will grow up to be rational adults, not extremists.'' From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 16:09:08 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:09:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aditya, I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not speaking for you & your cause, qoating you "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India Gate. It was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his acts." to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person whom you call terrorist. also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri young leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some thoughts about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after intimidating & terrorising people. best, Yunus On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on Internet; the > picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided to > share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my memory > back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your protest > early > in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it was the > same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later seen > enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you mentioned > were > crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my > business. :-) > > There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; > things > need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no > intention > to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath killer > Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which you > don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. > > We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans against > Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those MP's > (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by the ACP > of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was only > that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a > terrorist > peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military personnel > surrounded us there suddenly. > > Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our > activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; and > moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls from > Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at India > Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some media > sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken responsibility > into this incident. > > We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, that is a > coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, > kidnapped > and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the > exodus > of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and killed them > on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; just > because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to blame us > and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your > imagination friend :-) > > I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a terrorist > being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand times > before such a drastic step. > > Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always have a > problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin Malik? Why > shouldn't we protest? > > Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to JKLF > Gang > members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to protest that > very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. > > Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at Siri > Fort. > I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't know > the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased > reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion of 60th > Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't > understand > where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. They > must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; we > were > outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some doubts; > please visit the following link which has photographs, details and even > media cuttings of the event : - > > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html > > I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for any > apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we face on > and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has constantly > lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist Yasin > Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star treatment, and > put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify such > killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the > difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. > > I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India Gate. > It > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his > acts. > I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly mention of > supporting a terrorist. Why ? > > I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, inviting > this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting 'Roots In > Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire > community' > which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; why > you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of > terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to campaign > for > this. > > Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is difficult > to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 years now, > Sonia. > > In exile, > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > > > > > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of Yasin > > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his > > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of them had > > anything to do with the attack on my car. > > > > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack was > > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger about it > a > > year and a half later is shameful. > > > > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: > > > > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced > > disappearances > > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at Jantar > > Mantar. > > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself > > included. > > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the event. > > > > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the > conscience > > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or compensation, > > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive allow > us > > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their last > > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us for > years. > > > > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just exhumed > > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week before-- and > > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a noisy > > protest across the street. > > > > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah Geelani had > > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to all MPs > > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the public > > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what > > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women > weeping > > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young Kashmiri > > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. > > > > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate > lawns > > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the > guesthouse > > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I turned > at > > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half > blinded > > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the muck > > out > > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that the > > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously > meant > > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek > insignificantly. > > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral > damage. > > The irony was not lost on me. > > > > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took more > than > > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined forever and > > had > > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the day of > > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was grateful to > > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew I > could > > have crashed into the circle or into another car. > > > > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which Aditya > is > > a > > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will say how > > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, and I > have > > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya > betrayed > > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. > > > > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest at the > > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but heard > > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show that > > had > > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I > assume > > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims of > > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not countenance the > > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of lies, > > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that denounces > > State > > terrorism? > > > > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were > targeted > > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of Pandits > > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims of > > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by this > > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the pain of > > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to > identify > > with yours. > > > > > > Sonia Jabbar > > > > > > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > > > To: sarai list > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > > > > > > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol > > > > check here - > > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj > > > Kaul > > > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > > Personal Blog: > > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & > > > Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 16:11:46 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:11:46 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] How and why muslims get tagged together for terror.? Message-ID: <739464.26333.qm@web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Here is the common sense answer when any terror attack takes place, the society attacks and terms it as muslim terrorism. The reason is simple, when reservation is for Kasmiri migrants, "ontellectuals' and "journalists' see it as reservations for hindus.? -- that is kasmiri pandits.? Yasin malik, known face of terror seeks justice for a genuine cause while in all evil deeds he is seen as face of terror, and a sonia jabbar likes to keep his company, no participate with him in seeking justice. Jamia nagar encounter takes place, and Amar singh is the first one to offer ten lakh by cheque to the family, written cheque betrays the intention, in words it is one lakh, in figures it is ten lakhs, and amusingly, later wants judicial inquiry, terms (almost ) that the incident is fake. Ofcourse all mothers wail for their "innocent" sons who have submitted fake degree certificates.!    A supreme court lawyer does not know the procedure to see detained accused, simple application to magistrate of that jurisdiction, so gives dharna in front of the police station. An "intelectual" Arundhati sits in Dharna till tv cameras roll out her image for the citizens, then it is all over.. Teachers of Jamia milia want to go on procession seeking justice, good, keep it up, that is the best way to wreck democracy from inside with vote bank politics.!  VC of the university wants to insult the constitution by giving AIDS to accused when this is specifically available to all accused as per law. If it does not work, make it work, but giving AIDS is questionable. (Using AIDS in capital letters is with pun.)Sabina can run brothel in Srinagar, there is much demand for this oldest profession in closed societies like in srinagar.?   Congress gives ministerial berth to terror accused DMK MP in killing of Rajeev, P Laksmi, but gets vaiko arrested so that spin is possibe for vote banks of regional tamils.? Accused of terror and helping LTTE, DMK is with UPA, Sonia is capable of being with killers of her husband for power.? Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname at rocketmail.com. Sign up now! http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From mail at shivamvij.com Fri Oct 24 16:33:43 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:33:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Where religion does not define identity In-Reply-To: <950257.1934.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <950257.1934.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810240403r10ab43d1s97686cf43c7ebb8e@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for posting this, Yousuf. You may also want to see this one by Sohail Hashmi: http://kafila.org/2008/10/24/phool-walon-ki-sair/ best shivam On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Where religion does not define identity > 23 Oct 2008, Radhika Oberoi, Times News Network > > NEW DELHI: Standing outside the dargah of Khawja Syed Qutbuddin Bakhtiyar Khaki on Thursday was a young girl her fingers intertwined wi > th the filigreed windows that provide a glimpse of her beloved khawja's resting place. Her kohl-rimmed eyes were radiant as she muttered her prayers. > > Her name wasn't Zenat or Noor or Nusrat, but Savita. In the crowd of devotees there, one's religion was a mere technicality. The throng of Hindus and Muslims were celebrating Phool Walon ki Sair, and it was the Hindus, led by Lt Governor Tejendra Khanna, who laid a chadder made of flowers on the dargah, to mark the first day of the celebrations. > > Savita, apart from being a devotee, has for a good part of the evening, policed the rows of shoes that lay at the entrance to the dargah. "Mere pardade bhi yahan par jooton ki rakhwali karte the; is kaam mein sabse zyada sukoon mehsoos hota hai (My forefathers used to volunteer to look after the shoes of devotees; the menial task gave them, and now me, immense peace of mind).'' > > Mirza Mohtaram Bakht, secretary, Anjuman Sair-e-Gul Faroshan, organizer of the festivities, referred to the recent bomb blast in the area in hushed tones and said, "The festival is a clear message to the dividing forces that we are stronger than them. Look around you can you tell the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim?" Saddened by the fact that the urban, educated classes representatives of secular India know little about the festival that was popular in the Mughal era, but was banned by the British in 1942 before it was revived by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in 1961, he believes the media can play an important role in informing the young: "Tell them about Mehrauli, about the rich legacy of communal harmony that flowered here.'' Taking a cynical view of the kind of secularism brandished by political parties, he said, "Election kareeb aa gay to bhaichara ho gaya aisa nahin hona chahiye. (The elections shouldn't suddenly lead to brotherhood it should > come from within.'' > > The Gaddi-e-Nashin of the dargah, Syed Fakhruddin, was equally forceful about the role of the youth: "Hum ne to apne umar guzar li hai, ab naujawanon ke haath mein hi desh khushhaal reh sakta hai (We're in the winter of our lives; it's up to the youth to lead the country to peace and harmony).'' > > For the youth who live in the area and have grown up with vivid memories of qawali nights, dances and plays, the current festivities are a bit subdued. Manish, a 24-year-old whose grandfather runs a jalebi shop in the lane outside the dargah, said, "We've shifted into the lane only recently. Before that my grandfather sold jalebis for over 40 years in the main market. He has often spoken of long queues outside his shop during the festivities.'' The conversation kept slipping back to the bomb blasts too fresh in the memories of residents to be glossed over. Manish, who also runs a tutorial next door to his grandfather's shop, firmly believes that a modern education is one way of combating militancy: "I teach Science and Maths to the kids here; hopefully, they will grow up to be rational adults, not extremists.'' > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 16:45:19 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:45:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> Syed bhai, I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on this list for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; I'm sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin Malik and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of Kashmir; for just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. What kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad day-light ? There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to carve out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as always and don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want to eliminate the 'minority'. Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and enjoy the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > > Aditya, > > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not speaking > for you & your cause, > > qoating you > > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India Gate. > It > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his > acts." > > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person whom > you call terrorist. > > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri young > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some thoughts > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after > intimidating & terrorising people. > > best, > > Yunus > > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on Internet; the >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided to >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my memory >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your protest >> early >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it was the >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later seen >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you mentioned >> were >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my >> business. :-) >> >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; >> things >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no >> intention >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath killer >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which you >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. >> >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans >> against >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those MP's >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by the >> ACP >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was only >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a >> terrorist >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military personnel >> surrounded us there suddenly. >> >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; and >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls from >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at India >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some media >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken responsibility >> into this incident. >> >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, that is >> a >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, >> kidnapped >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the >> exodus >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and killed >> them >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; just >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to blame us >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your >> imagination friend :-) >> >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a terrorist >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand times >> before such a drastic step. >> >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always have a >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin Malik? Why >> shouldn't we protest? >> >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to JKLF >> Gang >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to protest >> that >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. >> >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at Siri >> Fort. >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't know >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion of >> 60th >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't >> understand >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. They >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; we >> were >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some >> doubts; >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and even >> media cuttings of the event : - >> >> http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html >> >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for any >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we face on >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has constantly >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist Yasin >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star treatment, and >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify such >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. >> >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India Gate. >> It >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his >> acts. >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly mention >> of >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? >> >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, inviting >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting 'Roots In >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire >> community' >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; why >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to campaign >> for >> this. >> >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is difficult >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 years >> now, >> Sonia. >> >> In exile, >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> > >> > >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of >> Yasin >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of them had >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. >> > >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack was >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger about >> it a >> > year and a half later is shameful. >> > >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: >> > >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced >> > disappearances >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at Jantar >> > Mantar. >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself >> > included. >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the event. >> > >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the >> conscience >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or compensation, >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive allow >> us >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their last >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us for >> years. >> > >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just exhumed >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week >> before-- and >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a noisy >> > protest across the street. >> > >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> had >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to all MPs >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the >> public >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women >> weeping >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young Kashmiri >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. >> > >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate >> lawns >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the >> guesthouse >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I turned >> at >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half >> blinded >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the muck >> > out >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that the >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously >> meant >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek >> insignificantly. >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral >> damage. >> > The irony was not lost on me. >> > >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took more >> than >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined forever and >> > had >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the day >> of >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was grateful to >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew I >> could >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. >> > >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which Aditya >> is >> > a >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will say >> how >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, and I >> have >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya >> betrayed >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. >> > >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest at >> the >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but heard >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show that >> > had >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I >> assume >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims of >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not countenance the >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of >> lies, >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that denounces >> > State >> > terrorism? >> > >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were >> targeted >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of >> Pandits >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims of >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by this >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the pain of >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to >> identify >> > with yours. >> > >> > >> > Sonia Jabbar >> > >> > >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 >> > > To: sarai list >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik >> > >> > > >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol >> > >> > check here - >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 >> > >> > -- >> > Aditya Raj >> > > Kaul >> > >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> > Personal Blog: >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & >> > > Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! From angshukanta at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 17:12:20 2008 From: angshukanta at gmail.com (Angshukanta Chakraborty) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:42:20 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Review the reviews (The Last Lear) Message-ID: <77aa94900810240442n4433d5eeu4e7e4f1a2d31e463@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, This is the Guardian Film Review of *The Last Lear*. Please send in your reactions on it (this review) and let's understand what are these half-baked criticisms (and constant straight-jacketing of the entire Indian film system as Bollywood, therefore dispensable qualitatively, if not on the revenue front) by the Western media trying to do. This is the url if that is more convenient: http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/sep/22/bollywood I would also recommend reading the following review in the Statesman (by Shoma A Chatterjee) for a second opinion. http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=30&theme=&usrsess=1&id=227727 Thanks, Angshukanta The Guardian revew follows: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most god-awful film I have ever seen The Last Lear does the fledgling English-language movie business in Bollywood absolutely no favours, writes Nirpal Dhaliwal - [image: Nirpal] - - *Nirpal Dhaliwal* - guardian.co.uk , - Tuesday September 23 2008 00.17 BST - Article history [image: Preity Zinta and Amitabh Bachchan in The Last Lear] Lost in the forest ... Preity Zinta and Amitabh Bachchan in The Last Lear You'd think that Shakespeare and Bollywood would be made for each other. If the Bard were alive today, his histrionic melodramas would've made him the fattest cat in Mumbai, his couch worn to splinters by the legions of actresses he'd have cast for his ridiculous scripts. Even dead, he's still managed to inseminate India's movie industry to spawn the ghastly bastard devil-child that is The Last Lear – the most god-awful film I have ever seen in any genre, anywhere in the world. 1. The Last Lear 2. *Release:* 2007 3. *Country:* Rest of the world 4. *Runtime:* 123 mins 5. *Directors:* Rituparno Ghosh 6. *Cast:* Amitabh Bachchan, Arjun Rampal, Preity Zinta 7. More on this film Bollywood overlord Amitabh Bachchan plays a cranky ageing thespian, Harish Mishra, who is lured out of retirement in Calcutta for his first movie role by a hip young director, Siddarth (Arjun Rampal). During filming he befriends Shabnam, a naive young starlet, played by the enticing Preity Zinta. An English language movie, rare in mainstream India, The Last Lear possesses the worst traits of Indian English-language novels – prolixity, sanctimony and an absence of any originality – while lacking their craft and erudition. Plodding, cliche-ridden, humourless and wholly one-dimensional, the script feels as if it was written by a lobotomised Kiran Desai. Bachchan's performance as the supposedly wizened theatrical genius, Harish, is so atrocious that I almost puked with laughter at it. Looking like Jeff Bridges in The Big Lebowski, with a huge mane of unkempt white hair, he gives Siddarth an impromptu soliloquy from The Tempest. But Harish's Prospero consists of him roaring insanely as he inhumanly strains his face, as if passing the most excruciating bowel movement, while aimlessly flailing his arms (I beg someone to upload the scene onto YouTube. It's SO funny!). But rather than greasing his fingers and helping the poor old boy with a manual evacuation, Siddarth simply claps and gasps, "Brilliant!" The dialogue is stunningly bad. While wandering in a forest during the shoot, Shabnam asks Harish for some tips on acting. Wearing a woolly bobble-hat and a matching scarf, the sort you stopped wearing when you started walking to school on your own, Harish replies: "Do you know why people act?" Shabnam's tremulously waits a moment before the sage gives the answer with God-like gravitas. "Because they have a desire to perform," he says. That's as profound as it got for over two hours. The film takes itself painfully seriously, filled with contrived solemnity as its characters ponder the fakeness of the movie world in contrast with Harish's stage-honed authenticity. But it's still crammed with Bollywood's most outrageous absurdities. On realising that the final scene will involve a cliff-top stunt, Harish insists on doing it himself in order retain his artistic integrity, despite being 75 years old and almost blind. And, desiring the film to be a masterpiece of realism, Siddarth not only indulges him but makes the stunt even more dangerous, making the old man take a leap that leaves him seriously injured. If Siddarth were such a murderously uncompromising auteur, you wonder why he chose the world's worst actor to star for him in the first place. Harish duly returns to his roaring form when Shabnam recites King Lear to his comatose body. The use of English rather than Hindi – no doubt an attempt at breaking into a wider audience – grates throughout. Harish speaks a ludicrously hammy English, filled with Tony Blairisms (lots of "c'mons" and "y'knows"). Everyone else speaks with a regular Indian accent – apart from the woman hired to nurse him, who seems to be based on the faux-wogs of It Ain't Half Hot Mum. The only time Bachchan is remotely believable is when Harish is drunk and lapses into an Indian accent reminiscent of the uncouth street-wise characters that he played so brilliantly as a young man. There was a time when Amitabh Bachchan was India's Steve McQueen, James Stewart and Sean Connery all rolled into one, but in The Last Lear he's a deranged Bollywood mishmash of Bruce Forsyth and Derek Jacobi. This could be the film by which the English-speaking world will judge him – which is a crying shame. Everyone else, despite the fact that they never shift out of second gear, consummately acts him off the screen. Shakespeare's work is supposed to be every actor's dream material, but for Bachchan – and the viewer – it's an absolute nightmare. From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 17:16:49 2008 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:16:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Review the reviews (The Last Lear) In-Reply-To: <77aa94900810240442n4433d5eeu4e7e4f1a2d31e463@mail.gmail.com> References: <77aa94900810240442n4433d5eeu4e7e4f1a2d31e463@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d0d777b0810240446k6fde0cc4ge54f9cbc9f14f454@mail.gmail.com> MAN THE FILMS SUCKED BIG TIME....psudo film making at its best On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Angshukanta Chakraborty < angshukanta at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > This is the Guardian Film Review of *The Last Lear*. Please send in > your reactions on it (this review) and let's understand what are these > half-baked criticisms (and constant straight-jacketing of the entire Indian > film system as Bollywood, therefore dispensable qualitatively, if not on > the > revenue front) by the Western media trying to do. > > This is the url if that is more convenient: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/sep/22/bollywood > > > I would also recommend reading the following review in the Statesman (by > Shoma A Chatterjee) for a second opinion. > > > > http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=30&theme=&usrsess=1&id=227727 > > > Thanks, > Angshukanta > > The Guardian revew follows: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The most god-awful film I have ever seen The Last Lear does the fledgling > English-language movie business in Bollywood absolutely no favours, writes > Nirpal Dhaliwal > > - [image: Nirpal] > - > - *Nirpal Dhaliwal* > > - guardian.co.uk , > - Tuesday September 23 2008 00.17 BST > - Article > history< > http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/sep/22/bollywood#history-byline> > > [image: Preity Zinta and Amitabh Bachchan in The Last Lear] > > Lost in the forest ... Preity Zinta and Amitabh Bachchan in The Last Lear > > You'd think that Shakespeare and Bollywood would be made for each other. If > the Bard were alive today, his histrionic melodramas would've made him the > fattest cat in Mumbai, his couch worn to splinters by the legions of > actresses he'd have cast for his ridiculous scripts. Even dead, he's still > managed to inseminate India's movie industry to spawn the ghastly bastard > devil-child that is The Last Lear – the most god-awful film I have ever > seen > in any genre, anywhere in the world. > > 1. The Last Lear > 2. *Release:* 2007 > 3. *Country:* Rest of the world > 4. *Runtime:* 123 mins > 5. *Directors:* Rituparno Ghosh > 6. *Cast:* Amitabh Bachchan, Arjun Rampal, Preity Zinta > 7. More on this film< > http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/movie/120807/last.lear> > > Bollywood overlord Amitabh Bachchan plays a cranky ageing thespian, Harish > Mishra, who is lured out of retirement in Calcutta for his first movie role > by a hip young director, Siddarth (Arjun Rampal). During filming he > befriends Shabnam, a naive young starlet, played by the enticing Preity > Zinta. An English language movie, rare in mainstream > India, > The Last Lear possesses the worst traits of Indian English-language novels > – > prolixity, sanctimony and an absence of any originality – while lacking > their craft and erudition. Plodding, cliche-ridden, humourless and wholly > one-dimensional, the script feels as if it was written by a lobotomised > Kiran Desai. > > Bachchan's performance as the supposedly wizened theatrical genius, Harish, > is so atrocious that I almost puked with laughter at it. Looking like Jeff > Bridges in The Big Lebowski, with a huge mane of unkempt white hair, he > gives Siddarth an impromptu soliloquy from The Tempest. But Harish's > Prospero consists of him roaring insanely as he inhumanly strains his face, > as if passing the most excruciating bowel movement, while aimlessly > flailing > his arms (I beg someone to upload the scene onto YouTube. It's SO funny!). > But rather than greasing his fingers and helping the poor old boy with a > manual evacuation, Siddarth simply claps and gasps, "Brilliant!" > > The dialogue is stunningly bad. While wandering in a forest during the > shoot, Shabnam asks Harish for some tips on acting. Wearing a woolly > bobble-hat and a matching scarf, the sort you stopped wearing when you > started walking to school on your own, Harish replies: "Do you know why > people act?" Shabnam's tremulously waits a moment before the sage gives the > answer with God-like gravitas. "Because they have a desire to perform," he > says. That's as profound as it got for over two hours. > > The film takes itself painfully seriously, filled with contrived solemnity > as its characters ponder the fakeness of the movie world in contrast with > Harish's stage-honed authenticity. But it's still crammed with Bollywood's > most outrageous absurdities. On realising that the final scene will involve > a cliff-top stunt, Harish insists on doing it himself in order retain his > artistic integrity, despite being 75 years old and almost blind. And, > desiring the film to be a masterpiece of realism, Siddarth not only > indulges > him but makes the stunt even more dangerous, making the old man take a leap > that leaves him seriously injured. If Siddarth were such a murderously > uncompromising auteur, you wonder why he chose the world's worst actor to > star for him in the first place. Harish duly returns to his roaring form > when Shabnam recites King Lear to his comatose body. > > The use of English rather than Hindi – no doubt an attempt at breaking into > a wider audience – grates throughout. Harish speaks a ludicrously hammy > English, filled with Tony Blairisms (lots of "c'mons" and "y'knows"). > Everyone else speaks with a regular Indian accent – apart from the woman > hired to nurse him, who seems to be based on the faux-wogs of It Ain't Half > Hot Mum. The only time Bachchan is remotely believable is when Harish is > drunk and lapses into an Indian accent reminiscent of the uncouth > street-wise characters that he played so brilliantly as a young man. > > There was a time when Amitabh Bachchan was India's Steve McQueen, James > Stewart and Sean Connery all rolled into one, but in The Last Lear he's a > deranged Bollywood mishmash of Bruce Forsyth and Derek Jacobi. This could > be > the film by which the English-speaking world will judge him – which is a > crying shame. Everyone else, despite the fact that they never shift out of > second gear, consummately acts him off the screen. Shakespeare's work is > supposed to be every actor's dream material, but for Bachchan – and the > viewer – it's an absolute nightmare. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal Goswami ATREE, Bangalore-24 From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 17:26:28 2008 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:26:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: May be I m wrong while using 'ruling kashmir' what i meant was young leaders who will determine the future. I can understand how terrorising it must be to face the bullets, for any body. Also there are numerous version of Nizam-e- mustafa & not not only islamic state, For instance I'm an indian, which is not an Islamic state still I get ample scope to follow Nizam-e-Mustafa, while dealing with people, doing business, being a community member of the neighbourhood, doing charity, while travelling in other countries. performing my work duties etc. and I do all this openly with out any guilt (or commiting any crime) because it does not harm any body ( not even verbally) also the true Nizam-e mustafa do not approve of terrorising people at gun point :) but it clearly stops people to say bad words or malign somebody. Im keen on listening you & other people on this list, best, Yunus On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Syed bhai, > > I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on this > list > for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. > > If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; I'm > sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin Malik > and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of Kashmir; for > just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. What > kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad day-light ? > > There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the > 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to carve > out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as always and > don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want to > eliminate the 'minority'. > > Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and enjoy > the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. > > Thanks > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > > > > Aditya, > > > > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not > speaking > > for you & your cause, > > > > qoating you > > > > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India > Gate. > > It > > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could > > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his > > acts." > > > > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person > whom > > you call terrorist. > > > > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri young > > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some > thoughts > > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after > > intimidating & terrorising people. > > > > best, > > > > Yunus > > > > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on Internet; > the > >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided to > >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my memory > >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your protest > >> early > >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it was > the > >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later seen > >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you mentioned > >> were > >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my > >> business. :-) > >> > >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; > >> things > >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no > >> intention > >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath > killer > >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which you > >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. > >> > >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans > >> against > >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those > MP's > >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by the > >> ACP > >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was > only > >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a > >> terrorist > >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military > personnel > >> surrounded us there suddenly. > >> > >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our > >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; and > >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls from > >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at > India > >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some > media > >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken > responsibility > >> into this incident. > >> > >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, that > is > >> a > >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, > >> kidnapped > >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the > >> exodus > >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and killed > >> them > >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; just > >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to blame > us > >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your > >> imagination friend :-) > >> > >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a > terrorist > >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand > times > >> before such a drastic step. > >> > >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always have > a > >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin Malik? > Why > >> shouldn't we protest? > >> > >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to JKLF > >> Gang > >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to protest > >> that > >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. > >> > >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at Siri > >> Fort. > >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't > know > >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased > >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion of > >> 60th > >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't > >> understand > >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. > They > >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; we > >> were > >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some > >> doubts; > >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and even > >> media cuttings of the event : - > >> > >> > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html > >> > >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for any > >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we face > on > >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has constantly > >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist Yasin > >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star treatment, > and > >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify such > >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the > >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. > >> > >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India > Gate. > >> It > >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could > >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his > >> acts. > >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly mention > >> of > >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? > >> > >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, > inviting > >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting 'Roots > In > >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire > >> community' > >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; > why > >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of > >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to campaign > >> for > >> this. > >> > >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is > difficult > >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 years > >> now, > >> Sonia. > >> > >> In exile, > >> > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of > >> Yasin > >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his > >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of them > had > >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. > >> > > >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack was > >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger about > >> it a > >> > year and a half later is shameful. > >> > > >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: > >> > > >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced > >> > disappearances > >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at Jantar > >> > Mantar. > >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself > >> > included. > >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the > event. > >> > > >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the > >> conscience > >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or > compensation, > >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive > allow > >> us > >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their > last > >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us for > >> years. > >> > > >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just > exhumed > >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week > >> before-- and > >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a > noisy > >> > protest across the street. > >> > > >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah Geelani > >> had > >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to all > MPs > >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the > >> public > >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what > >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women > >> weeping > >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young Kashmiri > >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. > >> > > >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate > >> lawns > >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the > >> guesthouse > >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I > turned > >> at > >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half > >> blinded > >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the > muck > >> > out > >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that > the > >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously > >> meant > >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek > >> insignificantly. > >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral > >> damage. > >> > The irony was not lost on me. > >> > > >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took more > >> than > >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined forever > and > >> > had > >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the day > >> of > >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was grateful > to > >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew I > >> could > >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. > >> > > >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which > Aditya > >> is > >> > a > >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will say > >> how > >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, and I > >> have > >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya > >> betrayed > >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. > >> > > >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest at > >> the > >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but > heard > >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show > that > >> > had > >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I > >> assume > >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims of > >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not countenance > the > >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of > >> lies, > >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that denounces > >> > State > >> > terrorism? > >> > > >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were > >> targeted > >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of > >> Pandits > >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims of > >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by this > >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the pain > of > >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to > >> identify > >> > with yours. > >> > > >> > > >> > Sonia Jabbar > >> > > >> > > >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > >> > > To: sarai list > >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > >> > > >> > > > >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol > >> > > >> > check here - > >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Aditya Raj > >> > > Kaul > >> > > >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> > Personal Blog: > >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & > >> > > Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > >> Cell - +91-9873297834 > >> > >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Change is the only constant in life ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 09:54:37 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 00:24:37 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir's people at centre stage (Hindu) References: <9592CB1973ED42718324B72401FE5B5E@tara> <47e122a70810231107l37cfe57cod52520cf91f61375@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84DB1414D2514E72959C5BBF2E4D3EA6@tara> There is not much to like in a bourgeois democratic system. I don't differentiate there between Kashmir and the rest of India. A poet once said about democracy: Jahan janta ki janta dvara Aisi taisi hoti hai Vahan democracy hoti hai. Democracy is where people make a mess of people's life (sorry for this crude translation). I see no place in the world where people are not cynical about electoral politics. Ironically, those who gain the most out of a democratic regime, are more cynical of it. Do we ever hear someone praising a democratic government except for those who have political and/or economic interests? Yet it seems to be the best option out of the available ones (even in Kashmir) But, of course, people do have different opinions. Here is another article on this from today's Hindu. Democracy and the peace process in J&K Praveen Swami New Delhi must break with a script which has led to a breakdown of democratic institutions and engendered a dysfunctional political culture. Speaking from atop his wooden throne in Srinagar’s Jama Masjid earlier this month, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq delivered a stinging attack on politicians who will contest the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly elections next month. “I want to ask the Prime Minister of India,” the cleric and secessionist politician said in his October 10 sermon, “whether it serves any purpose to hold discussions with leaders who do not dare move among the masses unless they are protected by a cordon of guards.” Mirwaiz Farooq’s fighting words would have had a great moral force had it not been for one uncomfortable fact: he is among the ranks of politicians he railed against. Like his secessionist colleagues Sajjad Gani Lone, Bilal Gani Lone, Abdul Gani Butt and Aga Syed Hassan, the Mirwaiz is protected by the Jammu and Kashmir police. In addition, the Mirwaiz—whose father was assassinated by jihadists — has invested in a bullet-proof car. Early next year, notwithstanding the anti-election campaign that has now been unleashed by secessionists, an elected government will again hold power in the State. Influential figures in New Delhi’s policy establishment have been suggesting that once the rituals of democracy are done with, New Delhi, along with Islamabad, must get down to the real business of hammering out a peace deal with the very politicians who are seeking to obstruct the elections. While the new government goes about fixing roads and sewers, this line of thinking has it, the big boys will fix Jammu and Kashmir’s future. If New Delhi is in fact serious about peace-building in Jammu and Kashmir, it must break with this script — a script which over the last six decades has led to a breakdown of democratic institutions in the State and engendered a near-clinical dysfunction in its political life. Instead, the politicians who are elected this winter must be pushed to come up with a workable vision of the State’s future — and encouraged to negotiate its contours and content with their counterparts in Parliament. Ever since Independence, New Delhi had sought to secure Jammu and Kashmir’s accession to India through a series of backroom deals. Politicians were cajoled — and sometimes coerced — to sign agreements in 1952, 1966, 1971 and 1975. Not one was debated and ratified by an elected body. Deceit and betrayal It takes little to see what drove this unhappy story. Prime Ministers, from Jawaharlal Nehru to P.V. Narasimha Rao, were driven by the need to defend India against Pakistan’s covert war in Jammu and Kashmir. In their vision, the proper role of the elected governments in Jammu and Kashmir was to dispense patronage, and thus undermine dissent — not deal with the issues which drove the conflict. When Jammu and Kashmir saw the restoration of democratic governance in 1996, this paradigm continued to shape New Delhi’s policies. Soon after he took office, Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee set about seeking a deal with the All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) — a secessionist coalition cast as the sole representative of Kashmir’s authentic, secessionist sentiment. Prime Minister Vajpayee’s peace efforts, although helped along by generously-funded covert funding to the APHC leadership, achieved little. Hemmed in by hawks in his Cabinet, Mr. Vajpayee was in no position to make significant political concessions. APHC leaders, for their part, faced massive coercive pressures from jihadist groups like the Hizb ul-Mujahideen and the Lashkar-e-Taiba. In essence, the APHC and the Government of India played for time. Both hoped that negotiations with Pakistan would lead to an agreement that would end the conflict by gifting the secessionists power within an autonomy-based framework. Apprehensive of just that outcome, the National Conference began adopting increasingly intransigent postures, hoping to frustrate a New Delhi-Islamabad-APHC deal. Even as New Delhi talked to the APHC, though, it rejected the National Conference’s calls for a dialogue on autonomy — souring relations with the most important player in State politics. During his first years in office, Prime Minister Singh’s policies closely mirrored those of his predecessor. He once again initiated negotiations with the APHC, and authorised a covert programme to reach out to hardline secessionists outside its fold. As before, the APHC refused to bring to the table a road map for dialogue. And mirroring the actions of the National Conference earlier, the People’s Democratic Party turned to Islamist ideas and practices in an effort to stave off the political consequences of a New Delhi-APHC deal. In 2006, the Prime Minister finally departed from the tried and tested path, realising that it led only to certain failure. Instead of seeking a deal with the APHC alone, he now reached out to the full spectrum of political opinion in Jammu and Kashmir. Following all-party conferences in New Delhi and Srinagar, the Prime Minister set up five Working Groups on the conflict. Four of the groups — on social confidence-building measures, the cross-Line of Control relationship, economic development and governance — submitted their reports last year. But the critical fifth group, which discussed Jammu and Kashmir’s constitutional relationship with New Delhi, has not met in over a year, let alone submit a report. Part of the reason was that major political parties in Jammu and Kashmir have not been able to arrive at a shared vision of the future. National Conference leaders reiterated their controversial 1999 proposals for wide-ranging autonomy within the Union of India, but offered no blueprint for addressing the anxieties of those residents who opposed this agenda. For its part, the People’s Democratic Party called for self-rule, but submitted only a blueprint for devolution of powers to district and regional bodies—not a map for transfiguring Jammu and Kashmir’s relationship with New Delhi. Bharatiya Janata Party representatives called for the abrogation of Article 370 of the Constitution (which confers a special status on the State), while the Congress said nothing at all. New Delhi’s failure to push the fifth Working Group also stemmed from its hope that the APHC could still be made to sign on to an emerging India-Pakistan deal. At secret meetings which began in 2005, Prime Minister Singh’s envoy, SK Lambah, and his Pakistani counterpart, Tariq Aziz, arrived at five points of convergence. First, the two men agreed that there would be no redrawing of the Line of Control. Second, they accepted that there would have to be greater political autonomy on both sides of Jammu and Kashmir. Lambah and Aziz also agreed that India would begin troop cuts in response to de-escalation of jihadist violence, cooperatively use resources like watersheds, forests and glaciers, and, finally, open the LoC for travel and trade. >From the outset, the APHC rejected participation in the Prime Minister’s round-table dialogue, refusing to accept that it was just one of several political voices in Jammu and Kashmir. Speaking after a February 20, 2006 meeting where the APHC rejected an invitation to participate in the Delhi round-table conference, Mirwaiz Farooq said that while “the Hurriyat is not averse to New Delhi’s consultation process with others,” it “believes that for permanent resolution of the Kashmir crisis, the governments of India and Pakistan shall have to essentially deal with those people who have been treating Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory from day one.” Before the subsequent Srinagar conference, Prime Minister Singh’s advisors have long claimed, Mirwaiz Farooq tempered that stand and agreed to join in the discussions. However, the APHC backed out at the last moment. Since then the Mirwaiz’s position has hardened. In the midst of this summer’s communally charged Shrine Board protests, he signed a secret June 19 agreement with Syed Ali Shah Geelani dropping the option of direct talks with the Government of India — the Islamist patriarch’s long-standing bone of contention with the APHC. In his sermon, Mirwaiz Farooq lashed out at “the accords and agreements signed by Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah, Bakshi Ghulam Muhammad and Syed Mir Qasim with New Delhi, which the people of Kashmir have never accepted.” Agreements like these, the Mirwaiz said, bred a culture of “deceit and betrayal.” He is right, but he omitted to mention that secessionists were just as complicit in this corruption as pro-India politicians. Groups like the APHC are reluctant to engage in a genuine dialogue precisely because it will be substantive. Few among the secessionists have a workable vision for the future; those who do have are willing to risk the consequences of articulating one. As things stand, it appears that the APHC and other secessionists want a deal which hands them power, not a real dialogue — a replay of the New Delhi-Srinagar pacts involving Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah, which they claim to abhor. Whether the APHC likes it or not, the National Conference, the Congress and the People’s Democratic Party do speak for substantial sections of Jammu and Kashmir. Accepting this plurality of voices is a prerequisite for a meaningful peace. Instead of empowering secessionists by starting a renewed engagement with the APHC after the elections, New Delhi would do well to turn, instead, to the politicians chosen by Jammu and Kashmir’s people to represent them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "inder salim" To: Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir's people at centre stage (Hindu) > dear Tara > it is indeed impossible to ignore the Election in kashmir. And we all > know there will be more and more exchange of thoughts, angry exchanges > as well, about this coming kashmir. > > 1. Besides many other benefits, The real word 'Democracy' has done one > big thing in India: the change of guard has happened without a large > scale bloodshed. ( rigging was part of it ) > > 2. In kashmir too, it did happen on similar lines, but because of this > ' kashmir conflict ' it will look different from the rest of elections > in India. ( Rigging was part of it ) > > 3. In kashmir, there will be many news things, many new surprises in > the coming election, before and after the results as well. > The ritual of elections will be witnessed by masses with an added > sync-ism, since everybody knows what elections mean in kashmir. > > 4. The predictable winner is NC, with PDP following, Congress has no > chance, in jammu, BJP is gainer. > > The anti-election campaign by Hurriyat will be noted by international > observes this time more than it was previously. > > Having said, from experience so far, it would be futile to suggest the > participants o remain cool while expressing their opinions on > kashmir. as some amongst us are likely to link this anti-election > thing as anti-national. > > the anti-election thing must be seen as part of democratic process, but > > love > is > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:02 PM, taraprakash > wrote: >> Kashmir's people at centre stage >> >> In less than four weeks' time, millions living in what is sometimes >> described as the most dangerous place on earth will make their way to >> polling stations >> stretching from the shadows of Siachen to the sun-baked plains of Samba. >> More than a few voices had called for deferring the elections until next >> summer, >> fearing that the still-raw wounds of the violence Jammu and Kashmir saw >> this summer could lead to a poor voter turnout and a verdict polarised >> along communal >> line s. Others were worried that terrorist violence, or an anti-election >> campaign by secessionists, could lead to more bloodshed. All these >> concerns are >> legitimate. But by ordering that elections to the State Legislative >> Assembly be held in time to avoid the imposition of central rule, the >> Election Commission >> of India has made a courageous and principled decision that places at >> centre stage the right of the people to shape their own future. >> >> Without doubt, the poll process will face many severe challenges before >> the seven-phase election is completed in December. But the fact that fear >> has not >> been allowed to derail democracy is something of a triumph in itself. For >> decades, elections in Jammu and Kashmir were used as instruments of some >> cause: >> to bring a particular party to power, for example, or for demonstrating >> the legitimacy of the State's accession to India. Ever since 1996, when >> democracy >> returned to the State after an extended breakdown brought about by >> jihadist violence, elections have been cast as a tool for peacemaking. >> The ECI's decision >> underlines the fact that while elections may indeed yield desirable >> outcomes, this is not their raison d'étre. By making clear that democracy >> is not contingent >> on circumstance or result, the ECI has helped the healing of the >> dysfunctions that came to characterise J&K's political life because of >> the decades-old >> subversion of democracy. The elections will, moreover, make clear to >> political parties in Jammu and Kashmir that they - not New Delhi or for >> that matter >> Islamabad - are the principal architects of the State's destiny. Over the >> summer, the Congress-People's Democratic Party alliance government paid >> the price >> for the two partners' political opportunism and failure to challenge the >> forces of religious and ethnic chauvinism. Now, the people of the State >> will have >> the opportunity to assess that record and decide who might have the best >> vision for the future. In 1996 and 2002, terrorist violence claimed the >> lives >> of almost 200 political workers from most major parties, who put their >> lives on the line to campaign for their beliefs. Ensuring that there will >> be an >> elected government in Jammu and Kashmir before the New Year is a fitting >> tribute to that sacrifice. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 18:37:34 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:37:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yunus, thanks for picking up the nuance in the aditya's mail. right now we have an image in front of us : INK ON 'YASIN MALIK', by Shiv Sena ( we believe Aditya ) , I believe, the moment you incorporate a particular image in your discourse, it speaks differently. Here, The same image if included, for example by Sonia will produce opposite results in comparison to Aditya's... So, here, sonia has made it clear that how she looks at the image, but Aditya, remains contradictory, either he should condemn openly the Shiv Sena's cowardly act ( who openly own the demolition of Babri Mosque also, and their off-springs threaten North Indians in Maharashtra ) or he should approve the act as celebratory. That simply will solve the problem for both what the images speaks for whom. And if it is celebratory, then he approves the act, which he denies at the moment. he has still a choice. about Nizam-Mustafa: there are many ways to understand it. humour: in kashmiri a poet Ayub Sabir says, Rozdari gatch asin raats, be travha kalai shong. ( I would have slept quite early in the evening, if Ramazan fasting was during the nights) . He is a friend, and such poets and people are very much part of the kashmiri society, even during such harsh times. yesterday, i saw, I AM ISTANBUL by Mohan Maharishi at IGNCA. a great play based on Orhan Pamuk novel ( Nobel winner ) it is 16th century, istanbul. and its Kahwa khana ( bohemian's club, gays, dancing and all that ) was attacked by fundamentalists of those times, who explicitly talked about Nizam-Mustafa. Before the attack, the spokesperson of kahwa khanna made fun of these rufffians who attack such alternative ways of life, but simultaneously criticized the western writers like Mark Twain, who wrote in detail about these kahawa khanas, which perhaps motivated these groups to react violently. The famous Iranian film maker Makhmalbaf too pointed out the fact that demolition of Bamyian Buddha in Afganistan happened because American policies in our region. Needless to say, that Lahore has much fashion on the streets than in kashmir, the reason is perhaps, Indian policies in Kashmir. One simply can not forget how the MUF ( Muslim United Front ) was denied the victory in early 87-88 elections which perhaps, sparked the sleepy JKLF in 1989. warmly is On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Syed Yunus wrote: > May be I m wrong while using 'ruling kashmir' what i meant was young leaders > who will determine the future. > > I can understand how terrorising it must be to face the bullets, for any > body. > > Also there are numerous version of Nizam-e- mustafa & not not only islamic > state, For instance I'm an indian, which is not an Islamic state still I get > ample scope to follow Nizam-e-Mustafa, while dealing with people, doing > business, being a community member of the neighbourhood, doing charity, > while travelling in other countries. performing my work duties etc. and I do > all this openly with out any guilt (or commiting any crime) because it does > not harm any body ( not even verbally) > > also the true Nizam-e mustafa do not approve of terrorising people at gun > point :) > but it clearly stops people to say bad words or malign somebody. > > Im keen on listening you & other people on this list, > > > best, > > Yunus > > > > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> Syed bhai, >> >> I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on this >> list >> for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. >> >> If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; I'm >> sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin Malik >> and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of Kashmir; for >> just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. What >> kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad day-light ? >> >> There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the >> 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to carve >> out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as always and >> don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want to >> eliminate the 'minority'. >> >> Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and enjoy >> the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. >> >> Thanks >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: >> > >> > Aditya, >> > >> > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not >> speaking >> > for you & your cause, >> > >> > qoating you >> > >> > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India >> Gate. >> > It >> > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could >> > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his >> > acts." >> > >> > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person >> whom >> > you call terrorist. >> > >> > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri young >> > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some >> thoughts >> > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after >> > intimidating & terrorising people. >> > >> > best, >> > >> > Yunus >> > >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> >> >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on Internet; >> the >> >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided to >> >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my memory >> >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your protest >> >> early >> >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it was >> the >> >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later seen >> >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you mentioned >> >> were >> >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my >> >> business. :-) >> >> >> >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; >> >> things >> >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no >> >> intention >> >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath >> killer >> >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which you >> >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. >> >> >> >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans >> >> against >> >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those >> MP's >> >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by the >> >> ACP >> >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was >> only >> >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a >> >> terrorist >> >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military >> personnel >> >> surrounded us there suddenly. >> >> >> >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our >> >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; and >> >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls from >> >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at >> India >> >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some >> media >> >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken >> responsibility >> >> into this incident. >> >> >> >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, that >> is >> >> a >> >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, >> >> kidnapped >> >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the >> >> exodus >> >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and killed >> >> them >> >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; just >> >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to blame >> us >> >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your >> >> imagination friend :-) >> >> >> >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a >> terrorist >> >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand >> times >> >> before such a drastic step. >> >> >> >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always have >> a >> >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin Malik? >> Why >> >> shouldn't we protest? >> >> >> >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to JKLF >> >> Gang >> >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to protest >> >> that >> >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. >> >> >> >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at Siri >> >> Fort. >> >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't >> know >> >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased >> >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion of >> >> 60th >> >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't >> >> understand >> >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. >> They >> >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; we >> >> were >> >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some >> >> doubts; >> >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and even >> >> media cuttings of the event : - >> >> >> >> >> http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html >> >> >> >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for any >> >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we face >> on >> >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has constantly >> >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist Yasin >> >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star treatment, >> and >> >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify such >> >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the >> >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. >> >> >> >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India >> Gate. >> >> It >> >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could >> >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his >> >> acts. >> >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly mention >> >> of >> >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? >> >> >> >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, >> inviting >> >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting 'Roots >> In >> >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire >> >> community' >> >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; >> why >> >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of >> >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to campaign >> >> for >> >> this. >> >> >> >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is >> difficult >> >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 years >> >> now, >> >> Sonia. >> >> >> >> In exile, >> >> >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of >> >> Yasin >> >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his >> >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of them >> had >> >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. >> >> > >> >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack was >> >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger about >> >> it a >> >> > year and a half later is shameful. >> >> > >> >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: >> >> > >> >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced >> >> > disappearances >> >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at Jantar >> >> > Mantar. >> >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself >> >> > included. >> >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the >> event. >> >> > >> >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the >> >> conscience >> >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or >> compensation, >> >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive >> allow >> >> us >> >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their >> last >> >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us for >> >> years. >> >> > >> >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just >> exhumed >> >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week >> >> before-- and >> >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a >> noisy >> >> > protest across the street. >> >> > >> >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> >> had >> >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to all >> MPs >> >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the >> >> public >> >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what >> >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women >> >> weeping >> >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. >> >> > >> >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate >> >> lawns >> >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the >> >> guesthouse >> >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I >> turned >> >> at >> >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half >> >> blinded >> >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the >> muck >> >> > out >> >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that >> the >> >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously >> >> meant >> >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek >> >> insignificantly. >> >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral >> >> damage. >> >> > The irony was not lost on me. >> >> > >> >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took more >> >> than >> >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined forever >> and >> >> > had >> >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the day >> >> of >> >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was grateful >> to >> >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew I >> >> could >> >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. >> >> > >> >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which >> Aditya >> >> is >> >> > a >> >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will say >> >> how >> >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, and I >> >> have >> >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya >> >> betrayed >> >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. >> >> > >> >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest at >> >> the >> >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but >> heard >> >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show >> that >> >> > had >> >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I >> >> assume >> >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims of >> >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not countenance >> the >> >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of >> >> lies, >> >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that denounces >> >> > State >> >> > terrorism? >> >> > >> >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were >> >> targeted >> >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of >> >> Pandits >> >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims of >> >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by this >> >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the pain >> of >> >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to >> >> identify >> >> > with yours. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Sonia Jabbar >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 >> >> > > To: sarai list >> >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol >> >> > >> >> > check here - >> >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Aditya Raj >> >> > > Kaul >> >> > >> >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> >> > Personal Blog: >> >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & >> >> > > Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Change is the only constant in life ! >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 24 18:56:52 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:56:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810240137v16326a2aj79c0b38d16d07888@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810200704w43b18b5fo15129a37c1467bdc@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220524p72246ee2x9b67e9195f936d59@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810232121j46bd3afey40a3c582be954ad6@mail.gmail.com> <7E87461E-DCCB-41D0-A84C-0D466E2AB074@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70810240137v16326a2aj79c0b38d16d07888@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <753A9A34-95C1-4BB3-AE74-1651A9F9D1D7@sarai.net> Pawan, Unfortunately for you, the reports i cited do not only use the term 'Kashmiri Migrants', they also use, in significant instances, the very specific term 'Kashmiri Pandits'. And this is not my invention. I only 'quote' them. For instance, the report in the Hindu by Naunidhi Kaur, specifically says - "While in power, the Shiv Sena had instituted quotas for Kashmiri Pandits in colleges in Maharashtra." Notice, the term used is 'pandits' not 'migrants'. Similarly, if you were to follow the link to the report titled "Quota for Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges" in the Hindu for December 24, 2004, you will see that the subject line (title) of the report uses the term 'Kashmiri Pandits', not 'Kashmiri Migrants' Morover, were you to go into the report you would read that this 'quota' was announced by the then chief minister of Karnataka State, Dharam Singh, at a Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits" organised by the All India Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the Kashmiri Hindu Samithi, Karnataka. (both of which are Kashmiri Pandit organizations) If you read what he said while announcing these quotas, there can be no denying the fact that the quotas are meant primarily to support Kashmiri Pandit migrants. He says (as you would read if you had read the full report) "It is unfortunate that the original inhabitants of Jammu and Kashmir, the Kashmiri Pandits, are tragic victims of systematic oppression and are undergoing forced exile for the last 15 years. It is the responsibility of the Union Government and society, on humanitarian grounds, to help them to return to their homes," Clearly, he is addressing a Kashmiri Pandit constituency by setting up an institutional framework to meet their demands. I do not believe that the question of forced internal displacement or migration from Kashmir needs to be viewed in a secterian light. And I am sure that the demands of 'non-Kashmiri Pandit' migrants from Kashmir, (whether Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist, Chistian) are as justified as those of exclusively Hindu, 'Kashmiri Pandit' migrants from Kashmir, if they have migrated due to terror and intimidation. There are instances, for example, of Kashmiri Christians (converts both from Pandit as well as Muslim communities) who have been denied all help so far by the government of India, or by the government of the state of Jammu and Kashmir and are studiously ignored by the Kashmiri Pandit organizations that claim to speak on behalf of migrants from Kashmir. See - for further details Now, it might be interesting to know how many 'non Kashmiri Pandit' migrants have been able to avail of these quotas in different states. Do you have any figures (not anecdotes, figures) that you would be able to share with the group, or will you continue to make what are simply insinuations. If you have anything more substantial and verifiable than your personal opinion, it might be useful. If not, I suggest you consider again who needs to apologise to whom on the list. I find your selective appropriation of pain sad and unfortunate. It truly diminishes your capacity to give an account of suffering, and turns every expression by you and your colleagues of that suffering into an opportunist exercise. In the end, it is people like you that make it more, not less, difficult for Kashmiri Pandit communities (whether displaced, or still living in Kashmir) to lead a dignified life. I hope that this dispute will end here, with the clarification of facts if need be, because I for one do not want to see another endless round of exchanges on things Kashmiri, to the exclusion of everything else on this list Shuddha On 24-Oct-08, at 2:07 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddha , > > Thank you for your mail . I do nothing but apprecaite the way you > mix words > which suit your ideology. > > In this case I must say you do a great dis service to SARAI by > manufacturing > stories and mixing words. > > Please check up the prood you have provided yourself. In this case > it must > be noted of how you have changed the subject line while refering to > "Kashmiri Pandits" while as when anyone would go theorugh your > "proof" of > news links , the stories do mention that reservations are there , > but it > also does mention that the reservation is for Kashmiri Migrants. > > I know you have a specific knowledge about Kashmir and Kashmiris . > What i > did not know that you were unaware that there were many caste and > groups of > people who are registered as Migrants from Kashmir. And you must be > aware of > how many Kashmiri Muslims take advantage of this whether they are > genuinely > victimes of terrorism or not. > > Also if at all in some specific course some reservation is > metioned , that > does not make a rule to generalise it. > > Mr Shuddha , it needs a brave and a person of character to admit > the wrong. > Unfortunately both you and Shivam do not fit in any of these two. > > Now Shuddha , ypou owe an apology to come clean of what made you > come to > support Shivam or is it that you both are supporters of separatist > Kashmiris and hence common friends. > > Some Mausere Bhai ....... > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > On 10/24/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> >> Pawan, >> >> >> In your post to Shivam you said - >> >> >> I am just asking you to clarify whether your details about 5% >> reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra >> >> or any state is true. >> >> >> Here are four references, with appropriate citations (below) on >> the subject >> of 'quotas' for admission of Kashmiri Pandit migrant candidates to >> educational institutions in different states (Maharashtra, Madhya >> Pradesh >> and Karnataka). >> >> >> I see nothing wrong with them, just as I see nothing wrong with >> affirmative >> action initiatives in educational institutions for dalit, tribal >> and OBC >> students. Whosoever suffers social disabilities should be entitled to >> affirmative action in a caring society. I have nothing against >> Kashmiri >> Pandit migrants being entitled to affirmative action, for the same >> reason >> that i have nothing against Bangladeshi Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist >> migrants >> to Delhi or any other part of India being entitled (as I hope they >> will be >> one day) to affirmative action. >> >> >> Whosoever suffers due to migration, or social or political >> reasons, or >> whosoever's migration occurs because of suffering should be >> entitled to care >> and hospitality by the host society. I believe this to be perfectly >> reasonable and humane. >> >> >> Coming to details, which you demand, you will notice that there is a >> specific mention of upto 5% (reservation) for Kashmiri Pandit >> students in >> non technical courses in Karnataka. >> >> >> I do hope that now you will consider offering the list, and Shivam >> Vij an >> apology for suggesting that he has been biased against Kashmiri >> Pandits >> while bringing up the subject of 'reservations' and acted as a >> 'compulsive >> liar'. Clearly, as the sources below indicate, he has not acted as a >> compulsive liar. In this case, it turns out that you have a bias >> against >> looking for available sources that go against your self imposed >> image of >> Kashmiri Pandits being the eternal and only victims in our midst. >> Their >> sufferings do not diminish simply because they are not the only >> ones to >> suffer. Please avoid making charges of this nature in the future. >> You do >> your community and its cause a great deal of disservice by these >> outbursts. >> Please check that you are not making a fool of yourself all over >> again >> before the next time you hit send after writing a post addressed >> to this >> listl. You do this way too often and I really feel bad for you. I >> would >> heartily recommend a degree of restraint to you. >> >> >> I also hope that Aditya Raj Kaul, whose political agenda in Delhi >> University Student politics has featured a heavy accent against >> the issue of >> 'reservations' will consider carefully the fact that his argument >> against >> reservations can also extend to an argument against reservations for >> Kashmiri Pandit students. >> >> >> Perhaps, for the sake of consistency, he could either think of >> making a >> case against reservations for Kashmiri pandit migrant students within >> appropriate forums, such as 'Roots in Kashmir', or on the other >> hand, turn >> his considerable activist experience in a generally 'pro-reservation' >> direction, or at least refrain from commenting on the issue of >> reservations >> altogether. Either way, it is never too late to change one's mind. >> >> >> Of course, he need not, because continued hypocrisy (which works >> well in >> tandem with a loqacious self promotional agenda) is a perfectly valid >> political option, especially given the currently prevailing political >> culture in our glorious republic. >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> 1. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Maharashtra >> Educational >> Institutions >> >> >> a) Extract from Report on Internal Displacement.org >> >> < >> http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/ >> (httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument >>> >> >> >> "Maharashtra Government has made reservation of seats for children of >> citizens displaced from J&K due to terrorist violence and children of >> officers belonging to I.A.S., I.P.S. and other officers and staff >> belonging >> to military and paramilitary forces transferred to J&K to deal with >> terrorist activities in the State, in technical institutions in >> the filed >> [sic] of Engineering, Pharmacy, Architecture, etc., both at the >> degree and >> diploma levels. For this purpose, every diploma/degree level >> institution >> (whether Government aided or not) is permitted to create one extra >> seat for >> each course over and above the normal capacity of the institution >> and these >> seats cannot be allotted to students of any other category. >> However, no >> relaxation in eligibility conditions as prescribed by the concerned >> authority has been made. The domicile restriction has been removed >> for >> Kashmiri migrant students. Admission in general educational >> courses is also >> being provided subject to normal eligibility conditions being >> fulfilled." >> >> >> b) Extract on reservations for Kashmiri Pandits in Maharashtra >> from story >> in Frontline < >> http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122005301800.htm> >> >> >> The Distress of the Displaced >> >> by Naunidhi Kaur >> >> in New Delhi >> >> Frontline, Volume 19 - Issue 23, November 09 - 22 2002 >> >> >> "Now, the Kashmiri Pandit organisations have unabashedly hitched >> on to the >> Shiv Sena bandwagon. They remain grateful to Sena chief Bal >> Thackeray for >> helping the community out. While in power, the Shiv Sena had >> instituted >> quotas for Kashmiri Pandits in colleges in Maharashtra. Pandit >> organisations >> in Delhi are particularly sore about the Bharatiya Janata Party >> not doing >> anything to revive the registration process for migrant identity >> cards." >> >> >> 2. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Madhya Pradesh >> Educational >> Institutions >> >> >> Extract from Report on Madhya Pradesh on Internal Displacement.org >> >> < >> http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/ >> (httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument >>> >> >> >> "One seat has been reserved for Kashmiri migrants in each technical >> institution viz. Engineering, Polytechnics and [Industrial Training >> Institutes]. For general education there is no restriction in the >> State." >> >> >> 3. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Karnataka Educational >> Institutions >> >> >> Extract from Report in the Hindu, December 20, 2004 >> >> >> >> >> Quota for Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges >> >> The Hindu, Monday, December 20, 2004 >> >> >> "BANGALORE, DEC. 19. One seat each in all technical and professional >> colleges in the State will be reserved for Kashmiri migrant >> students, the >> Chief Minister, N. Dharam Singh, announced here on Sunday. >> >> >> In non-technical programmes such as B.A./B.Com./B.Sc./BCA/Computer >> Science, >> up to five per cent of seats over and above the approved intake in >> colleges >> will be given to wards of Kashmiri migrants, Mr. Singh said. >> >> >> He was speaking at the Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits" >> organised by the All India Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the >> Kashmiri Hindu >> Samithi, Karnataka. >> >> >> The seats in colleges offered to Kashmiris that remain vacant will be >> filled by other candidates, he added. Mr. Singh said that the >> Government >> would give Rs. 25 lakhs towards the construction of Kashmir Bhavan >> in the >> city." >> >> >> 4. Reflections on Reservations for Kashmiri Pandits by a Kashmiri >> Pandit >> >> >> Search Kashmir Blog >> >> > pandits.html >>> >> >> >> Quota and Kashmiri Pandits >> >> >> "Why can't we see things for what they are? We got quota in >> Maharashtra >> because it had a Hindu government and they tried to cash in on the >> Hindu >> vote by making it a 'Hindi cause'. Its all politics, nothing more, >> we were >> exploited, made a pawn in the great game and nothing more. >> >> >> They had no love lost for Kashmiri Pandits. Now we have Gujarat >> government >> giving quota. I hate Mr. Modi; he is the other side of the same >> communal >> coin. We were the poster boys of consequences of Islamic terror. >> In return, >> we got 'freebies' and we made the most of our situations. We don't >> have to >> be apologetic about it. A lot of good did come out of these freebies. >> However, at the same time we don't have to be thankful for it. >> They had >> their political goals and we had a life to look forward to. I did >> my B.E. >> due to quota in Maharashtra but I don't care much about this fact >> because I >> know that the system abused me and in return, I abused it back. >> Quota in our >> case is nothing but abuse of system. Quality and ability are >> superseded by >> need and requirement. How long do we need it? Do we stop when we >> can afford >> 3-4 lakhs to get a seat? Do you think we would be able to stop? >> Won't we >> think of that 3-4 lakhs as a saving and instead use it for some >> other so >> called 'worthy cause' like Weddings etc. How do you think KPs in >> Jammu could >> afford to build houses in Jammu? Should we be apologetic for that? >> >> >> Well, I am not. I did what I had to do and I did it my way. If >> anything, I >> am concerned about the price we are paying for having a quota >> system in the >> first place. The quality always pays the price for quantity. I >> know I would >> have performed better had I known that there is no quota to get me >> through >> the day. But I am hopelessly optimistic that each would find his >> own way. >> >> >> Quota isn't a simple issue (nothing related to Kashmir is simple), >> I still >> remember a Young K.P guy who came to teach us chemistry in school >> during >> 12th. He was a bright fellow but I could see that he was dejected >> with life. >> He gave his 12th living in a camp. He himself told me once that he >> could not >> be a B.E. because during his time they did not have a quota system >> and the >> no. of seats were too few. So he did B.sc and took up teaching. >> Therefore, >> quota or rather the absence of quota had an immitigable effect on >> his life. >> >> >> Bottom-line: Make the most of what life has to offer you. Quota >> does not >> necessary mean that you are bad but don't let it ruin your real >> education. >> We can spend all our life getting educated. Don't make yourself >> cannon >> fodder for greater political causes. >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 19:30:20 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] JTSG press release and Memorandum to PM on Jamia Message-ID: <2887.25939.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group Press Release 24th October 2008. Hundreds march to demand Judicial Enquiry into the Batla House 'Encounter' Teachers, students from Jamia Millia Islamia, Delhi University, JNU and IGNOU, social and political activists, journalists and writers joined the Citizen's March for Justice and Truth organised by the Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group today from Jantar Mantar to the Parliament. The ongoing communal tension in the country and the politics of State terror unleashed in the name of investigation/inquiry, etc. has created an atmosphere of unease, anxiety and fear among the minority communities of the country. The Batla House 'encounter' cannot be seen as an isolated event but as part of a larger process of fascization that has taken stereotyping of communities as a conscious agenda to counter the socio-economic turmoil across the country that threatens to spill over into a wider crisis. The fragmentation of the country on communal lines threatens the collective fabric of the nation and the liberal, democratic intelligentsia present questioned not only the incident of the Batla House 'encounter' in particular but the very process of communal witch hunt that survives on hate campaigns and inflicting violence on innocents. The gathering was addressed by Shabnam Hashmi (Anhad), Dipankar Bhattacharya (General Secretary, CPIML Liberation), Anjali Deshpande (Delhi Union of Journalists), Amit Sengupta (Senior Journalist), Manisha Sethi (Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group), Pranay Krishna (University of Allahabad, Gen. Sec. Jan Sanskriti Manch), Dr. G. Ajay (JNU), Prof. Kamal Mitra Chinoy (Sec. JNU Teachers' Association), Sandeep Singh (President, JNUSU), Santosh Roy (National Secretary, AICCTU), and others. Prominent members of civil society like Javed Naqvi, Prof. Mary John, Prof. Nivedita Menon, Prof. Shohini Ghosh, Prof. Janaki Rajan, Prof. Ramakrishnan, Ms. Kamla Bhasin, Prof. Nirmalangshu Mukherji, Prof. Badri Raina, Amresh Mishra, Swapan Mukherji, and others were present. Several members of organisations like Saheli, Amnesty International, Communist Ghadar Party, DTC Workers' Unity Centre, AICCTU, SIO, AISA were also present. Awam Theatre Group of Jamia Millia Islamia presented a street play called 'MASTERMIND' critiquing the role of the media and the institutions of the State in constructing the narratives of terror and the 'ways' in which it is being 'countered'. Saheli too presented a song on the theme of communalism. The programme was conducted by Tanweer Fazal, member, JTSG. A memorandum signed by more than 200 members of the intelligentsia was submitted to the Prime Minister's office (see below) and an appointment at the earliest is being sought so that a delegation can meet him at the earliest. The following demands were made: * A Judicial Enquiry under a sitting Judge of the Supreme Court be instituted at the earliest. * The investigations be handed over to the CBI since the Delhi Police and the Special Cell are already implicated parties which could prejudice the course of justice. * Immediate disciplinary action be taken against police personnel of the Special Cell involved in procedural irregularities both pre and post encounter at L-18 in Batla House. Released by: Anuradha Ghosh, Adil Mehdi , Sreerekha (JTSG) Jamia Teachers' Solidarity Group Memorandum to The Prime Minister of India Shri Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister of India. Dear Mr. Prime Minister, As you are aware, the Special Cell of the Delhi Police carried out an operation in Batla House (New Delhi) in which two students, Atif Ameen and Md. Sajid, and an officer of the Special Cell, Inspector M.C. Sharma, lost their lives. While the Delhi Police and your Government has claimed that this operation was a genuine 'encounter' in which the Special Cell was ambushed by 'terrorists' of a shady organization called Indian Mujahideen, the facts presented by the Delhi Police are contradictory and raise serious doubts about the veracity of the Police claim. The photographs of the slain students which show the skin of Atif sloughed off and the bullet injuries on Sajid's head pose strong questions over the genuineness of the 'encounter'. Further, the arbitrary arrests and detentions of young Muslim men by the Special Cell have fuelled a widespread feeling of hurt, alienation and fear that this encounter is part of a larger witch hunt of minorities. This apprehension is also shared by a large section of the democratic and secular citizenry, which sees a pattern in the way young educated Muslim youth are being targeted and stereotyped as the new-age "tech-savvy Islamic terrorists". The routine response of police and governments to all bomb blasts is to promptly identify 'Islamic terrorism' as the guilty party. This despite mounting evidence to the contrary – of the involvement of Hindu extremist organisations in manufacturing and planting bombs in Maharashtra and Gujarat. Further, the spiralling violence against minorities – from Dhule, Adilabad, Malegaon, Kanpur to Udalguri in Assam -- and the utterly soft approach of the State to reign in Hindutva violence has created an impression that the Indian State is engaging in a duplicity. We have come here to demonstrate at the Parliament today to convey our deep sense of anguish and anger, particularly at the police action in Batla House, which reeks of a blatant communal witch hunt. The inconsistencies in the Police version and the secrecy surrounding the autopsy reports of the deceased demand that an impartial enquiry be instituted at the earliest to investigate into the entire episode. We demand, therefore, that · A Judicial Enquiry under a sitting Judge of the Supreme Court be instituted at the earliest. · The investigations be handed over to the CBI since the Delhi Police and the Special Cell are already implicated parties which could prejudice the course of justice. · Immediate disciplinary action be taken against police personnel of the Special Cell involved in procedural irregularities both pre and post encounter at L-18 in Batla House. We would like to bring to your notice that even school children were picked up for identification on the day of the 'encounter' and the fact that Mohd. Sajid was a minor (17 year old) in complete violation of all constitutional provisions for the protection of the rights of minors. We hope sincerely that you willrespond positively to the democratic and secular opinion in the country. Sincerely, Signed by over two hundred people. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 20:06:53 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 20:06:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810240736o7fcda53cg5a6cb1678e11c56a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Syed bhai, Thanks for understanding. I would certainly love to be in Nizam-e-Mustafa; it is equivalent to Ram-rajiya, any human being in his right sense would love to live and remain in the same. However, in the context of Kashmir it has unfortunately been hijacked by killers and rapists like Yasin Malik. If the spirit of word is alive the leaders at the helm are people who are righteously Muslim who can have a problem with them, but people who kill in the name of religion cannot claim to be the torch bearers of Nizam-e-Mustafa. Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > > May be I m wrong while using 'ruling kashmir' what i meant was young > leaders who will determine the future. > > I can understand how terrorising it must be to face the bullets, for any > body. > > Also there are numerous version of Nizam-e- mustafa & not not only islamic > state, For instance I'm an indian, which is not an Islamic state still I get > ample scope to follow Nizam-e-Mustafa, while dealing with people, doing > business, being a community member of the neighbourhood, doing charity, > while travelling in other countries. performing my work duties etc. and I do > all this openly with out any guilt (or commiting any crime) because it does > not harm any body ( not even verbally) > > also the true Nizam-e mustafa do not approve of terrorising people at gun > point :) > but it clearly stops people to say bad words or malign somebody. > > Im keen on listening you & other people on this list, > > > best, > > Yunus > > > > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> Syed bhai, >> >> I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on this >> list >> for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. >> >> If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; I'm >> sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin Malik >> and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of Kashmir; >> for >> just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. What >> kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad day-light ? >> >> There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the >> 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to >> carve >> out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as always and >> don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want to >> eliminate the 'minority'. >> >> Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and >> enjoy >> the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. >> >> Thanks >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: >> > >> > Aditya, >> > >> > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not >> speaking >> > for you & your cause, >> > >> > qoating you >> > >> > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India >> Gate. >> > It >> > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one could >> > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his >> > acts." >> > >> > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person >> whom >> > you call terrorist. >> > >> > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri young >> > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some >> thoughts >> > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after >> > intimidating & terrorising people. >> > >> > best, >> > >> > Yunus >> > >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> >> >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on Internet; >> the >> >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided >> to >> >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my >> memory >> >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your protest >> >> early >> >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it was >> the >> >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later seen >> >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you mentioned >> >> were >> >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my >> >> business. :-) >> >> >> >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; >> >> things >> >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no >> >> intention >> >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath >> killer >> >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which you >> >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. >> >> >> >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans >> >> against >> >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those >> MP's >> >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by the >> >> ACP >> >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was >> only >> >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a >> >> terrorist >> >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military >> personnel >> >> surrounded us there suddenly. >> >> >> >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our >> >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; >> and >> >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls >> from >> >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at >> India >> >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some >> media >> >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken >> responsibility >> >> into this incident. >> >> >> >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, that >> is >> >> a >> >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, >> >> kidnapped >> >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the >> >> exodus >> >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and killed >> >> them >> >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; just >> >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to blame >> us >> >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your >> >> imagination friend :-) >> >> >> >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a >> terrorist >> >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand >> times >> >> before such a drastic step. >> >> >> >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always have >> a >> >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin Malik? >> Why >> >> shouldn't we protest? >> >> >> >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to JKLF >> >> Gang >> >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to protest >> >> that >> >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. >> >> >> >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at Siri >> >> Fort. >> >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't >> know >> >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased >> >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion of >> >> 60th >> >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't >> >> understand >> >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. >> They >> >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; we >> >> were >> >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some >> >> doubts; >> >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and even >> >> media cuttings of the event : - >> >> >> >> >> http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html >> >> >> >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for any >> >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we face >> on >> >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has constantly >> >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist >> Yasin >> >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star treatment, >> and >> >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify such >> >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the >> >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. >> >> >> >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India >> Gate. >> >> It >> >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one >> could >> >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his >> >> acts. >> >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly >> mention >> >> of >> >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? >> >> >> >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, >> inviting >> >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting 'Roots >> In >> >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire >> >> community' >> >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; >> why >> >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of >> >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to >> campaign >> >> for >> >> this. >> >> >> >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is >> difficult >> >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 years >> >> now, >> >> Sonia. >> >> >> >> In exile, >> >> >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of >> >> Yasin >> >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his >> >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of them >> had >> >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. >> >> > >> >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack >> was >> >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger >> about >> >> it a >> >> > year and a half later is shameful. >> >> > >> >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: >> >> > >> >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced >> >> > disappearances >> >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at Jantar >> >> > Mantar. >> >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself >> >> > included. >> >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the >> event. >> >> > >> >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the >> >> conscience >> >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or >> compensation, >> >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive >> allow >> >> us >> >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their >> last >> >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us for >> >> years. >> >> > >> >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just >> exhumed >> >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week >> >> before-- and >> >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a >> noisy >> >> > protest across the street. >> >> > >> >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> >> had >> >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to all >> MPs >> >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the >> >> public >> >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what >> >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women >> >> weeping >> >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young >> Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. >> >> > >> >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate >> >> lawns >> >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the >> >> guesthouse >> >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I >> turned >> >> at >> >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half >> >> blinded >> >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the >> muck >> >> > out >> >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that >> the >> >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously >> >> meant >> >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek >> >> insignificantly. >> >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral >> >> damage. >> >> > The irony was not lost on me. >> >> > >> >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took >> more >> >> than >> >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined forever >> and >> >> > had >> >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the >> day >> >> of >> >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was grateful >> to >> >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew I >> >> could >> >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. >> >> > >> >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which >> Aditya >> >> is >> >> > a >> >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will say >> >> how >> >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, and >> I >> >> have >> >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya >> >> betrayed >> >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. >> >> > >> >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest at >> >> the >> >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but >> heard >> >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show >> that >> >> > had >> >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I >> >> assume >> >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims of >> >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not countenance >> the >> >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of >> >> lies, >> >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that >> denounces >> >> > State >> >> > terrorism? >> >> > >> >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were >> >> targeted >> >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of >> >> Pandits >> >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims of >> >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by this >> >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the pain >> of >> >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to >> >> identify >> >> > with yours. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Sonia Jabbar >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 >> >> > > To: sarai list >> >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol >> >> > >> >> > check here - >> >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Aditya Raj >> >> > > Kaul >> >> > >> >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> >> > Personal Blog: >> >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & >> >> > > Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Change is the only constant in life ! >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! > -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 20:18:12 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 20:18:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810240748l62b7dc07lddb0c34a40e2d004@mail.gmail.com> Here you come yet again Inder Salim. I seriously didn't want to reply to such an unwanted post by you; but I can't see you in such a great loss of knowledge and understanding; so I have to correct you. I'll try to keep it short and crisp. Koshur Bhatte Boye hayi shukh aekhir.. :-) I don't care about what image you have or what to portray of me or yourself. I and Roots In Kashmir have been very open about our initiatives, campaigns; we are a group of free thinkers who don't subscribe to a particular ideology; or follow a particular leader; unlike in this case here where Terrorist Yasin Malik has become a God Father of some here. I've made things clear about both the events mentioned by my dear friend Sonia Jabbar. I've honestly in detail replied to even all allegations by her. I don't see a reason for a person like Inder Salim to further question me. Whatever has to be condemned I've done it openly. I don't need sermons by you to do that. Please read my e-mail again with wide open eyes and then only reply. Your habit hasn't changed; thundering your fingers on the keyboard without thinking. While I've condemned alleged acts by 'Shiv Sena'; people here don't have the guts to condemn Yasin Malik for the rapes, and murders committed by him. Have balls to speak against a fanatic Terrorist. In regard to IGNCA play. I had to be there; but missed it. Traffic Jam yet again. Anyways, net time. Aditya On 10/24/08, inder salim wrote: > > Dear Yunus, > thanks for picking up the nuance in the aditya's mail. > > right now we have an image in front of us : INK ON 'YASIN MALIK', by > Shiv Sena ( we believe Aditya ) > , > I believe, the moment you incorporate a particular image in your > discourse, it speaks differently. Here, The same image if included, > for example by Sonia will produce opposite results in comparison to > Aditya's... > > So, here, sonia has made it clear that how she looks at the image, but > Aditya, remains contradictory, either he should condemn openly the > Shiv Sena's cowardly act ( who openly own the demolition of Babri > Mosque also, and their off-springs threaten North Indians in > Maharashtra ) or he should approve the act as celebratory. That > simply will solve the problem for both what the images speaks for > whom. And if it is celebratory, then he approves the act, which he > denies at the moment. he has still a choice. > > about Nizam-Mustafa: > there are many ways to understand it. > > humour: in kashmiri a poet Ayub Sabir says, Rozdari gatch asin raats, > be travha kalai shong. ( I would have slept quite early in the > evening, if Ramazan fasting was during the nights) . He is a friend, > and such poets and people are very much part of the kashmiri society, > even during such harsh times. > > yesterday, i saw, I AM ISTANBUL by Mohan Maharishi at IGNCA. a > great play based on Orhan Pamuk novel ( Nobel winner ) > > it is 16th century, istanbul. and its Kahwa khana ( bohemian's club, > gays, dancing and all that ) was attacked by fundamentalists of those > times, who explicitly talked about Nizam-Mustafa. Before the attack, > the spokesperson of kahwa khanna made fun of these rufffians who > attack such alternative ways of life, but simultaneously criticized > the western writers like Mark Twain, who wrote in detail about these > kahawa khanas, which perhaps motivated these groups to react > violently. > > The famous Iranian film maker Makhmalbaf too pointed out the fact > that demolition of Bamyian Buddha in Afganistan happened because > American policies in our region. > > Needless to say, that Lahore has much fashion on the streets than in > kashmir, the reason is perhaps, Indian policies in Kashmir. > One simply can not forget how the MUF ( Muslim United Front ) was > denied the victory in early 87-88 elections which perhaps, sparked the > sleepy JKLF in 1989. > > warmly > > is > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Syed Yunus wrote: > > May be I m wrong while using 'ruling kashmir' what i meant was young > leaders > > who will determine the future. > > > > I can understand how terrorising it must be to face the bullets, for any > > body. > > > > Also there are numerous version of Nizam-e- mustafa & not not only > islamic > > state, For instance I'm an indian, which is not an Islamic state still I > get > > ample scope to follow Nizam-e-Mustafa, while dealing with people, doing > > business, being a community member of the neighbourhood, doing charity, > > while travelling in other countries. performing my work duties etc. and I > do > > all this openly with out any guilt (or commiting any crime) because it > does > > not harm any body ( not even verbally) > > > > also the true Nizam-e mustafa do not approve of terrorising people at gun > > point :) > > but it clearly stops people to say bad words or malign somebody. > > > > Im keen on listening you & other people on this list, > > > > > > best, > > > > Yunus > > > > > > > > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> Syed bhai, > >> > >> I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on this > >> list > >> for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. > >> > >> If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; I'm > >> sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin > Malik > >> and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of Kashmir; > for > >> just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. What > >> kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad day-light > ? > >> > >> There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the > >> 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to > carve > >> out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as always > and > >> don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want to > >> eliminate the 'minority'. > >> > >> Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and > enjoy > >> the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > >> On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > >> > > >> > Aditya, > >> > > >> > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not > >> speaking > >> > for you & your cause, > >> > > >> > qoating you > >> > > >> > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India > >> Gate. > >> > It > >> > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one > could > >> > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his > >> > acts." > >> > > >> > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person > >> whom > >> > you call terrorist. > >> > > >> > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri > young > >> > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some > >> thoughts > >> > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after > >> > intimidating & terrorising people. > >> > > >> > best, > >> > > >> > Yunus > >> > > >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> > >> >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on > Internet; > >> the > >> >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided > to > >> >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my > memory > >> >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your > protest > >> >> early > >> >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it > was > >> the > >> >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later > seen > >> >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you > mentioned > >> >> were > >> >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my > >> >> business. :-) > >> >> > >> >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; > >> >> things > >> >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no > >> >> intention > >> >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath > >> killer > >> >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which > you > >> >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. > >> >> > >> >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans > >> >> against > >> >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those > >> MP's > >> >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by > the > >> >> ACP > >> >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was > >> only > >> >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a > >> >> terrorist > >> >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military > >> personnel > >> >> surrounded us there suddenly. > >> >> > >> >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our > >> >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; > and > >> >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls > from > >> >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at > >> India > >> >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some > >> media > >> >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken > >> responsibility > >> >> into this incident. > >> >> > >> >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, > that > >> is > >> >> a > >> >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, > >> >> kidnapped > >> >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the > >> >> exodus > >> >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and > killed > >> >> them > >> >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; > just > >> >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to > blame > >> us > >> >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your > >> >> imagination friend :-) > >> >> > >> >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a > >> terrorist > >> >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand > >> times > >> >> before such a drastic step. > >> >> > >> >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always > have > >> a > >> >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin > Malik? > >> Why > >> >> shouldn't we protest? > >> >> > >> >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to > JKLF > >> >> Gang > >> >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to > protest > >> >> that > >> >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. > >> >> > >> >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at > Siri > >> >> Fort. > >> >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't > >> know > >> >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased > >> >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion > of > >> >> 60th > >> >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't > >> >> understand > >> >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. > >> They > >> >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; > we > >> >> were > >> >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some > >> >> doubts; > >> >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and > even > >> >> media cuttings of the event : - > >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html > >> >> > >> >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for > any > >> >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we > face > >> on > >> >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has > constantly > >> >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist > Yasin > >> >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star > treatment, > >> and > >> >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify > such > >> >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the > >> >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. > >> >> > >> >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India > >> Gate. > >> >> It > >> >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one > could > >> >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying > his > >> >> acts. > >> >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly > mention > >> >> of > >> >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? > >> >> > >> >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, > >> inviting > >> >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting > 'Roots > >> In > >> >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire > >> >> community' > >> >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; > >> why > >> >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of > >> >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to > campaign > >> >> for > >> >> this. > >> >> > >> >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is > >> difficult > >> >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 > years > >> >> now, > >> >> Sonia. > >> >> > >> >> In exile, > >> >> > >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of > >> >> Yasin > >> >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his > >> >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of > them > >> had > >> >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. > >> >> > > >> >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack > was > >> >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger > about > >> >> it a > >> >> > year and a half later is shameful. > >> >> > > >> >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: > >> >> > > >> >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced > >> >> > disappearances > >> >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at > Jantar > >> >> > Mantar. > >> >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself > >> >> > included. > >> >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the > >> event. > >> >> > > >> >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the > >> >> conscience > >> >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or > >> compensation, > >> >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive > >> allow > >> >> us > >> >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their > >> last > >> >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us > for > >> >> years. > >> >> > > >> >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just > >> exhumed > >> >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week > >> >> before-- and > >> >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a > >> noisy > >> >> > protest across the street. > >> >> > > >> >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah > Geelani > >> >> had > >> >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to > all > >> MPs > >> >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the > >> >> public > >> >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what > >> >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women > >> >> weeping > >> >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young > Kashmiri > >> >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. > >> >> > > >> >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India > Gate > >> >> lawns > >> >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the > >> >> guesthouse > >> >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I > >> turned > >> >> at > >> >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half > >> >> blinded > >> >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the > >> muck > >> >> > out > >> >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that > >> the > >> >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was > obviously > >> >> meant > >> >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek > >> >> insignificantly. > >> >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral > >> >> damage. > >> >> > The irony was not lost on me. > >> >> > > >> >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took > more > >> >> than > >> >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined > forever > >> and > >> >> > had > >> >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the > day > >> >> of > >> >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was > grateful > >> to > >> >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew > I > >> >> could > >> >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. > >> >> > > >> >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which > >> Aditya > >> >> is > >> >> > a > >> >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will > say > >> >> how > >> >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, > and I > >> >> have > >> >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya > >> >> betrayed > >> >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. > >> >> > > >> >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest > at > >> >> the > >> >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but > >> heard > >> >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show > >> that > >> >> > had > >> >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I > >> >> assume > >> >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims > of > >> >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not > countenance > >> the > >> >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of > >> >> lies, > >> >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that > denounces > >> >> > State > >> >> > terrorism? > >> >> > > >> >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were > >> >> targeted > >> >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of > >> >> Pandits > >> >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims > of > >> >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by > this > >> >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the > pain > >> of > >> >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to > >> >> identify > >> >> > with yours. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Sonia Jabbar > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > >> >> > > To: sarai list > >> >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol > >> >> > > >> >> > check here - > >> >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Aditya Raj > >> >> > > Kaul > >> >> > > >> >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > Personal Blog: > >> >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > > >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & > >> >> > > Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >> >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> > >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > >> >> Cell - +91-9873297834 > >> >> > >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > Change is the only constant in life ! > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Change is the only constant in life ! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 22:08:23 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:08:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810240748l62b7dc07lddb0c34a40e2d004@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240748l62b7dc07lddb0c34a40e2d004@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810240938i3e212fefm7980cf564458fdce@mail.gmail.com> thanks Aditya anger apart, i remain yours brotherly as ever, the question of image INK ON YASIN MALIK by shiv sena still remains unanswered. the intention to include that very image speaks about the meaning you want to derive from the image. you want to show us his humiliated face. what if that had damaged his eyes or face seriously, as Sonia pointed out, then how will you come out in public space with that images. TOI has done its job : The news. but what you are doing with the images is the debate. right now, you are within your rights to see Yasin Malik in that light. But remember, a person like Yasir Arafat, and some other leaders who forced their political visions to burst into the public domain have come from a violent back ground. The circumstances were such, we dont know anything about that. . The contradictions are many, but when we talk about pending disputes, like kashmir, etc things change, like i said, our great hero Bhagat Singh is still a terrorist in Britian. having said that, i repeat again, that i regret that there are no thinking terrorist these days. i wish... these days, we actually need more radical people who have the guts to change the world, of course violence on others is the most unwanted formula to bring out results. let us isolate the violence in the first place, but if we keep on provoking the madness, which has many excuses to inflict pain on others. there are many more other useful ways to force the point, but as one looks back into history, the crudeness of every moment is disowned by the very faces who come out like lotus from that mud. there is again a paradox. Well, Nelson Mendala is one big example, his sacrifice against apartheid is unparalled in history, but there must have been thousands of his colleagues who have suffered in this process, and certainly violence was part of that game. The whites did what they had to do there, but reaction to that could not have been always peaceful. During our recently concluded 1857 celebrations, we know how some Britishers arrived in Delhi to celebrate the loss of their ( british ) near and dear ones during Mutiny. It is true that lot of innocent Britishers ( women and children ) lost their lives during 1857 , but we can safely say that they killed 1 million later on, and the small violence was nothing in comparison. but is that what you want to try ? I personally, never said on the List or anywhere, that Kashmiri pandits did not suffer, suffer terribly, but how to talk about that only endlessly. why not talk about the sufferings of the other people in kashmir. if some parents had come to Delhi to express their anguish for the disappearances of their near and dear ones, then how those very people can disrupt that protest who had suffered themselves under similar conditions. one victim can not victimize another. that is unfortunate. So when you showed us the images of INK ON YASIN MALIK what was the intention other than to give language to your anger in the form of ink on his face. So you are ink, and then he is carrying you every where he goes, you loose your freedom that way, dont you see that. why let you get reduced just to ink, let him speak on his own behalf. and if you are within your rights to dismiss what he says, but this ink of face is certainly not the way out me as an artist did it once, i drew a black line across my face, and delivered a lecture on No-man's land. that is my way of doing things. so i guess one can be more effective, if there is some thought behind the act, not vandalism, bad mouthing, or other cheap means to express hate the language is potent enough to unnerve the other, let us believe in that love and regards is On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 8:18 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Here you come yet again Inder Salim. I seriously didn't want to reply to > such an unwanted post by you; but I can't see you in such a great loss of > knowledge and understanding; so I have to correct you. I'll try to keep it > short and crisp. Koshur Bhatte Boye hayi shukh aekhir.. :-) > > I don't care about what image you have or what to portray of me or yourself. > I and Roots In Kashmir have been very open about our initiatives, campaigns; > we are a group of free thinkers who don't subscribe to a particular > ideology; or follow a particular leader; unlike in this case here where > Terrorist Yasin Malik has become a God Father of some here. > > I've made things clear about both the events mentioned by my dear friend > Sonia Jabbar. I've honestly in detail replied to even all allegations by > her. I don't see a reason for a person like Inder Salim to further question > me. > > Whatever has to be condemned I've done it openly. I don't need sermons by > you to do that. Please read my e-mail again with wide open eyes and then > only reply. Your habit hasn't changed; thundering your fingers on the > keyboard without thinking. > > While I've condemned alleged acts by 'Shiv Sena'; people here don't have the > guts to condemn Yasin Malik for the rapes, and murders committed by him. > Have balls to speak against a fanatic Terrorist. > > In regard to IGNCA play. I had to be there; but missed it. Traffic Jam yet > again. Anyways, net time. > > Aditya > > > On 10/24/08, inder salim wrote: >> >> Dear Yunus, >> thanks for picking up the nuance in the aditya's mail. >> >> right now we have an image in front of us : INK ON 'YASIN MALIK', by >> Shiv Sena ( we believe Aditya ) >> , >> I believe, the moment you incorporate a particular image in your >> discourse, it speaks differently. Here, The same image if included, >> for example by Sonia will produce opposite results in comparison to >> Aditya's... >> >> So, here, sonia has made it clear that how she looks at the image, but >> Aditya, remains contradictory, either he should condemn openly the >> Shiv Sena's cowardly act ( who openly own the demolition of Babri >> Mosque also, and their off-springs threaten North Indians in >> Maharashtra ) or he should approve the act as celebratory. That >> simply will solve the problem for both what the images speaks for >> whom. And if it is celebratory, then he approves the act, which he >> denies at the moment. he has still a choice. >> >> about Nizam-Mustafa: >> there are many ways to understand it. >> >> humour: in kashmiri a poet Ayub Sabir says, Rozdari gatch asin raats, >> be travha kalai shong. ( I would have slept quite early in the >> evening, if Ramazan fasting was during the nights) . He is a friend, >> and such poets and people are very much part of the kashmiri society, >> even during such harsh times. >> >> yesterday, i saw, I AM ISTANBUL by Mohan Maharishi at IGNCA. a >> great play based on Orhan Pamuk novel ( Nobel winner ) >> >> it is 16th century, istanbul. and its Kahwa khana ( bohemian's club, >> gays, dancing and all that ) was attacked by fundamentalists of those >> times, who explicitly talked about Nizam-Mustafa. Before the attack, >> the spokesperson of kahwa khanna made fun of these rufffians who >> attack such alternative ways of life, but simultaneously criticized >> the western writers like Mark Twain, who wrote in detail about these >> kahawa khanas, which perhaps motivated these groups to react >> violently. >> >> The famous Iranian film maker Makhmalbaf too pointed out the fact >> that demolition of Bamyian Buddha in Afganistan happened because >> American policies in our region. >> >> Needless to say, that Lahore has much fashion on the streets than in >> kashmir, the reason is perhaps, Indian policies in Kashmir. >> One simply can not forget how the MUF ( Muslim United Front ) was >> denied the victory in early 87-88 elections which perhaps, sparked the >> sleepy JKLF in 1989. >> >> warmly >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Syed Yunus wrote: >> > May be I m wrong while using 'ruling kashmir' what i meant was young >> leaders >> > who will determine the future. >> > >> > I can understand how terrorising it must be to face the bullets, for any >> > body. >> > >> > Also there are numerous version of Nizam-e- mustafa & not not only >> islamic >> > state, For instance I'm an indian, which is not an Islamic state still I >> get >> > ample scope to follow Nizam-e-Mustafa, while dealing with people, doing >> > business, being a community member of the neighbourhood, doing charity, >> > while travelling in other countries. performing my work duties etc. and I >> do >> > all this openly with out any guilt (or commiting any crime) because it >> does >> > not harm any body ( not even verbally) >> > >> > also the true Nizam-e mustafa do not approve of terrorising people at gun >> > point :) >> > but it clearly stops people to say bad words or malign somebody. >> > >> > Im keen on listening you & other people on this list, >> > >> > >> > best, >> > >> > Yunus >> > >> > >> > >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> >> >> Syed bhai, >> >> >> >> I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on this >> >> list >> >> for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. >> >> >> >> If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; I'm >> >> sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin >> Malik >> >> and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of Kashmir; >> for >> >> just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. What >> >> kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad day-light >> ? >> >> >> >> There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the >> >> 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to >> carve >> >> out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as always >> and >> >> don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want to >> >> eliminate the 'minority'. >> >> >> >> Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and >> enjoy >> >> the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Aditya, >> >> > >> >> > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not >> >> speaking >> >> > for you & your cause, >> >> > >> >> > qoating you >> >> > >> >> > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India >> >> Gate. >> >> > It >> >> > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one >> could >> >> > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his >> >> > acts." >> >> > >> >> > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person >> >> whom >> >> > you call terrorist. >> >> > >> >> > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri >> young >> >> > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some >> >> thoughts >> >> > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after >> >> > intimidating & terrorising people. >> >> > >> >> > best, >> >> > >> >> > Yunus >> >> > >> >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on >> Internet; >> >> the >> >> >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided >> to >> >> >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my >> memory >> >> >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your >> protest >> >> >> early >> >> >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it >> was >> >> the >> >> >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later >> seen >> >> >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you >> mentioned >> >> >> were >> >> >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my >> >> >> business. :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; >> >> >> things >> >> >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no >> >> >> intention >> >> >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath >> >> killer >> >> >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which >> you >> >> >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. >> >> >> >> >> >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans >> >> >> against >> >> >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those >> >> MP's >> >> >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by >> the >> >> >> ACP >> >> >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was >> >> only >> >> >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a >> >> >> terrorist >> >> >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military >> >> personnel >> >> >> surrounded us there suddenly. >> >> >> >> >> >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our >> >> >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; >> and >> >> >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls >> from >> >> >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at >> >> India >> >> >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some >> >> media >> >> >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken >> >> responsibility >> >> >> into this incident. >> >> >> >> >> >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, >> that >> >> is >> >> >> a >> >> >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, >> >> >> kidnapped >> >> >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the >> >> >> exodus >> >> >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and >> killed >> >> >> them >> >> >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; >> just >> >> >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to >> blame >> >> us >> >> >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your >> >> >> imagination friend :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a >> >> terrorist >> >> >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand >> >> times >> >> >> before such a drastic step. >> >> >> >> >> >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always >> have >> >> a >> >> >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin >> Malik? >> >> Why >> >> >> shouldn't we protest? >> >> >> >> >> >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to >> JKLF >> >> >> Gang >> >> >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to >> protest >> >> >> that >> >> >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. >> >> >> >> >> >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at >> Siri >> >> >> Fort. >> >> >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't >> >> know >> >> >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased >> >> >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion >> of >> >> >> 60th >> >> >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't >> >> >> understand >> >> >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. >> >> They >> >> >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; >> we >> >> >> were >> >> >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some >> >> >> doubts; >> >> >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and >> even >> >> >> media cuttings of the event : - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for >> any >> >> >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we >> face >> >> on >> >> >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has >> constantly >> >> >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist >> Yasin >> >> >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star >> treatment, >> >> and >> >> >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify >> such >> >> >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the >> >> >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. >> >> >> >> >> >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India >> >> Gate. >> >> >> It >> >> >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one >> could >> >> >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying >> his >> >> >> acts. >> >> >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly >> mention >> >> >> of >> >> >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? >> >> >> >> >> >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, >> >> inviting >> >> >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting >> 'Roots >> >> In >> >> >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire >> >> >> community' >> >> >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; >> >> why >> >> >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of >> >> >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to >> campaign >> >> >> for >> >> >> this. >> >> >> >> >> >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is >> >> difficult >> >> >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 >> years >> >> >> now, >> >> >> Sonia. >> >> >> >> >> >> In exile, >> >> >> >> >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of >> >> >> Yasin >> >> >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his >> >> >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of >> them >> >> had >> >> >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack >> was >> >> >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger >> about >> >> >> it a >> >> >> > year and a half later is shameful. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced >> >> >> > disappearances >> >> >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at >> Jantar >> >> >> > Mantar. >> >> >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself >> >> >> > included. >> >> >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the >> >> event. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the >> >> >> conscience >> >> >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or >> >> compensation, >> >> >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive >> >> allow >> >> >> us >> >> >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their >> >> last >> >> >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us >> for >> >> >> years. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just >> >> exhumed >> >> >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week >> >> >> before-- and >> >> >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a >> >> noisy >> >> >> > protest across the street. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah >> Geelani >> >> >> had >> >> >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to >> all >> >> MPs >> >> >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the >> >> >> public >> >> >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what >> >> >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women >> >> >> weeping >> >> >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young >> Kashmiri >> >> >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India >> Gate >> >> >> lawns >> >> >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the >> >> >> guesthouse >> >> >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I >> >> turned >> >> >> at >> >> >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half >> >> >> blinded >> >> >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the >> >> muck >> >> >> > out >> >> >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that >> >> the >> >> >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was >> obviously >> >> >> meant >> >> >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek >> >> >> insignificantly. >> >> >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral >> >> >> damage. >> >> >> > The irony was not lost on me. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took >> more >> >> >> than >> >> >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined >> forever >> >> and >> >> >> > had >> >> >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the >> day >> >> >> of >> >> >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was >> grateful >> >> to >> >> >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew >> I >> >> >> could >> >> >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which >> >> Aditya >> >> >> is >> >> >> > a >> >> >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will >> say >> >> >> how >> >> >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, >> and I >> >> >> have >> >> >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya >> >> >> betrayed >> >> >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest >> at >> >> >> the >> >> >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but >> >> heard >> >> >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show >> >> that >> >> >> > had >> >> >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I >> >> >> assume >> >> >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims >> of >> >> >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not >> countenance >> >> the >> >> >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of >> >> >> lies, >> >> >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that >> denounces >> >> >> > State >> >> >> > terrorism? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were >> >> >> targeted >> >> >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of >> >> >> Pandits >> >> >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims >> of >> >> >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by >> this >> >> >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the >> pain >> >> of >> >> >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to >> >> >> identify >> >> >> > with yours. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Sonia Jabbar >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 >> >> >> > > To: sarai list >> >> >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol >> >> >> > >> >> >> > check here - >> >> >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Aditya Raj >> >> >> > > Kaul >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> > Personal Blog: >> >> >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> > Critiques & >> >> >> > > Collaborations >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> >> >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India >> >> >> Cell - +91-9873297834 >> >> >> >> >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > >> >> > Change is the only constant in life ! >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Change is the only constant in life ! >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 23:15:57 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:15:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810240938i3e212fefm7980cf564458fdce@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240748l62b7dc07lddb0c34a40e2d004@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810240938i3e212fefm7980cf564458fdce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810241045v2a9d2aacifb4da6f27af29ad5@mail.gmail.com> Inder Salim, I don't see a point in your e-mail response and thus don't want to continue this discussion. Whatever I had to clarify, I have done already. Why should I be concerned if a Terrorist is mobbed up someday by common people and beaten? (I'm not refering to this paricular ink incident) He is facing what he once himself had sown. I need not yet again remind you the famous Kashmiri one liner about "Soyeth". And, its needless to drag this debate... A Fanatic Terrorist will remain a Terrorist. You may go on defendig his cowardly acts; but does it help? !!! Not me, not you, not him. He has to repay...Someday. Take Care Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/24/08, inder salim wrote: > > thanks Aditya > anger apart, i remain yours brotherly as ever, > > the question of image INK ON YASIN MALIK by shiv sena still remains > unanswered. > the intention to include that very image speaks about the meaning you > want to derive from the image. > > you want to show us his humiliated face. what if that had damaged > his eyes or face seriously, as Sonia pointed out, then how will you > come out in public space with that images. TOI has done its job : > The news. but what you are doing with the images is the debate. > > right now, > > you are within your rights to see Yasin Malik in that light. But > remember, a person like Yasir Arafat, and some other leaders who > forced their political visions to burst into the public domain have > come from a violent back ground. The circumstances were such, we dont > know anything about that. > > . The contradictions are many, but when we talk about pending > disputes, like kashmir, etc things change, like i said, our great hero > Bhagat Singh is still a terrorist in Britian. > > having said that, i repeat again, that i regret that there are no > thinking terrorist these days. i wish... > > these days, we actually need more radical people who have the guts to > change the world, of course violence on others is the most unwanted > formula to bring out results. let us isolate the violence in the > first place, but if we keep on provoking the madness, which has many > excuses to inflict pain on others. > > there are many more other useful ways to force the point, but as one > looks back into history, the crudeness of every moment is disowned by > the very faces who come out like lotus from that mud. there is again a > paradox. > > Well, Nelson Mendala is one big example, his sacrifice against > apartheid is unparalled in history, but there must have been thousands > of his colleagues who have suffered in this process, and certainly > violence was part of that game. The whites did what they had to do > there, but reaction to that could not have been always peaceful. > > During our recently concluded 1857 celebrations, we know how some > Britishers arrived in Delhi to celebrate the loss of their ( british ) > near and dear ones during Mutiny. It is true that lot of innocent > Britishers ( women and children ) lost their lives during 1857 , but > we can safely say that they killed 1 million later on, and the small > violence was nothing in comparison. but is that what you want to try ? > > I personally, never said on the List or anywhere, that Kashmiri > pandits did not suffer, suffer terribly, but how to talk about that > only endlessly. why not talk about the sufferings of the other people > in kashmir. if some parents had come to Delhi to express their anguish > for the disappearances of their near and dear ones, then how those > very people can disrupt that protest who had suffered themselves under > similar conditions. > > one victim can not victimize another. that is unfortunate. So when you > showed us the images of INK ON YASIN MALIK what was the intention > other than to give language to your anger in the form of ink on his > face. So you are ink, and then he is carrying you every where he goes, > you loose your freedom that way, dont you see that. why let you get > reduced just to ink, > > let him speak on his own behalf. and if you are within your rights to > dismiss what he says, > but this ink of face is certainly not the way out > > me as an artist did it once, i drew a black line across my face, and > delivered a lecture on No-man's land. > > that is my way of doing things. so i guess one can be more effective, > if there is some thought behind the act, not vandalism, bad mouthing, > or other cheap means to express hate > > the language is potent enough to unnerve the other, let us believe in that > > love and regards > > is > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 8:18 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > Here you come yet again Inder Salim. I seriously didn't want to reply to > > such an unwanted post by you; but I can't see you in such a great loss of > > knowledge and understanding; so I have to correct you. I'll try to keep > it > > short and crisp. Koshur Bhatte Boye hayi shukh aekhir.. :-) > > > > I don't care about what image you have or what to portray of me or > yourself. > > I and Roots In Kashmir have been very open about our initiatives, > campaigns; > > we are a group of free thinkers who don't subscribe to a particular > > ideology; or follow a particular leader; unlike in this case here where > > Terrorist Yasin Malik has become a God Father of some here. > > > > I've made things clear about both the events mentioned by my dear friend > > Sonia Jabbar. I've honestly in detail replied to even all allegations by > > her. I don't see a reason for a person like Inder Salim to further > question > > me. > > > > Whatever has to be condemned I've done it openly. I don't need sermons by > > you to do that. Please read my e-mail again with wide open eyes and then > > only reply. Your habit hasn't changed; thundering your fingers on the > > keyboard without thinking. > > > > While I've condemned alleged acts by 'Shiv Sena'; people here don't have > the > > guts to condemn Yasin Malik for the rapes, and murders committed by him. > > Have balls to speak against a fanatic Terrorist. > > > > In regard to IGNCA play. I had to be there; but missed it. Traffic Jam > yet > > again. Anyways, net time. > > > > Aditya > > > > > > On 10/24/08, inder salim wrote: > >> > >> Dear Yunus, > >> thanks for picking up the nuance in the aditya's mail. > >> > >> right now we have an image in front of us : INK ON 'YASIN MALIK', by > >> Shiv Sena ( we believe Aditya ) > >> , > >> I believe, the moment you incorporate a particular image in your > >> discourse, it speaks differently. Here, The same image if included, > >> for example by Sonia will produce opposite results in comparison to > >> Aditya's... > >> > >> So, here, sonia has made it clear that how she looks at the image, but > >> Aditya, remains contradictory, either he should condemn openly the > >> Shiv Sena's cowardly act ( who openly own the demolition of Babri > >> Mosque also, and their off-springs threaten North Indians in > >> Maharashtra ) or he should approve the act as celebratory. That > >> simply will solve the problem for both what the images speaks for > >> whom. And if it is celebratory, then he approves the act, which he > >> denies at the moment. he has still a choice. > >> > >> about Nizam-Mustafa: > >> there are many ways to understand it. > >> > >> humour: in kashmiri a poet Ayub Sabir says, Rozdari gatch asin raats, > >> be travha kalai shong. ( I would have slept quite early in the > >> evening, if Ramazan fasting was during the nights) . He is a friend, > >> and such poets and people are very much part of the kashmiri society, > >> even during such harsh times. > >> > >> yesterday, i saw, I AM ISTANBUL by Mohan Maharishi at IGNCA. a > >> great play based on Orhan Pamuk novel ( Nobel winner ) > >> > >> it is 16th century, istanbul. and its Kahwa khana ( bohemian's club, > >> gays, dancing and all that ) was attacked by fundamentalists of those > >> times, who explicitly talked about Nizam-Mustafa. Before the attack, > >> the spokesperson of kahwa khanna made fun of these rufffians who > >> attack such alternative ways of life, but simultaneously criticized > >> the western writers like Mark Twain, who wrote in detail about these > >> kahawa khanas, which perhaps motivated these groups to react > >> violently. > >> > >> The famous Iranian film maker Makhmalbaf too pointed out the fact > >> that demolition of Bamyian Buddha in Afganistan happened because > >> American policies in our region. > >> > >> Needless to say, that Lahore has much fashion on the streets than in > >> kashmir, the reason is perhaps, Indian policies in Kashmir. > >> One simply can not forget how the MUF ( Muslim United Front ) was > >> denied the victory in early 87-88 elections which perhaps, sparked the > >> sleepy JKLF in 1989. > >> > >> warmly > >> > >> is > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Syed Yunus > wrote: > >> > May be I m wrong while using 'ruling kashmir' what i meant was young > >> leaders > >> > who will determine the future. > >> > > >> > I can understand how terrorising it must be to face the bullets, for > any > >> > body. > >> > > >> > Also there are numerous version of Nizam-e- mustafa & not not only > >> islamic > >> > state, For instance I'm an indian, which is not an Islamic state still > I > >> get > >> > ample scope to follow Nizam-e-Mustafa, while dealing with people, > doing > >> > business, being a community member of the neighbourhood, doing > charity, > >> > while travelling in other countries. performing my work duties etc. > and I > >> do > >> > all this openly with out any guilt (or commiting any crime) because it > >> does > >> > not harm any body ( not even verbally) > >> > > >> > also the true Nizam-e mustafa do not approve of terrorising people at > gun > >> > point :) > >> > but it clearly stops people to say bad words or malign somebody. > >> > > >> > Im keen on listening you & other people on this list, > >> > > >> > > >> > best, > >> > > >> > Yunus > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Syed bhai, > >> >> > >> >> I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on > this > >> >> list > >> >> for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. > >> >> > >> >> If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; > I'm > >> >> sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin > >> Malik > >> >> and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of > Kashmir; > >> for > >> >> just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. > What > >> >> kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad > day-light > >> ? > >> >> > >> >> There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the > >> >> 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to > >> carve > >> >> out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as > always > >> and > >> >> don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want > to > >> >> eliminate the 'minority'. > >> >> > >> >> Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and > >> enjoy > >> >> the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks > >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> > >> >> On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Aditya, > >> >> > > >> >> > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not > >> >> speaking > >> >> > for you & your cause, > >> >> > > >> >> > qoating you > >> >> > > >> >> > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at > India > >> >> Gate. > >> >> > It > >> >> > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one > >> could > >> >> > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying > his > >> >> > acts." > >> >> > > >> >> > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other > person > >> >> whom > >> >> > you call terrorist. > >> >> > > >> >> > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri > >> young > >> >> > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some > >> >> thoughts > >> >> > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after > >> >> > intimidating & terrorising people. > >> >> > > >> >> > best, > >> >> > > >> >> > Yunus > >> >> > > >> >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on > >> Internet; > >> >> the > >> >> >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I > decided > >> to > >> >> >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my > >> memory > >> >> >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your > >> protest > >> >> >> early > >> >> >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it > >> was > >> >> the > >> >> >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later > >> seen > >> >> >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you > >> mentioned > >> >> >> were > >> >> >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of > my > >> >> >> business. :-) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last > e-mail; > >> >> >> things > >> >> >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no > >> >> >> intention > >> >> >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a > psychopath > >> >> killer > >> >> >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours > which > >> you > >> >> >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising > slogans > >> >> >> against > >> >> >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and > those > >> >> MP's > >> >> >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde > by > >> the > >> >> >> ACP > >> >> >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime > was > >> >> only > >> >> >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a > >> >> >> terrorist > >> >> >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military > >> >> personnel > >> >> >> surrounded us there suddenly. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of > our > >> >> >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then > itself; > >> and > >> >> >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received > calls > >> from > >> >> >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place > at > >> >> India > >> >> >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through > some > >> >> media > >> >> >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken > >> >> responsibility > >> >> >> into this incident. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, > >> that > >> >> is > >> >> >> a > >> >> >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, > >> >> >> kidnapped > >> >> >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to > the > >> >> >> exodus > >> >> >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and > >> killed > >> >> >> them > >> >> >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; > >> just > >> >> >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to > >> blame > >> >> us > >> >> >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your > >> >> >> imagination friend :-) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a > >> >> terrorist > >> >> >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a > thousand > >> >> times > >> >> >> before such a drastic step. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always > >> have > >> >> a > >> >> >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin > >> Malik? > >> >> Why > >> >> >> shouldn't we protest? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to > >> JKLF > >> >> >> Gang > >> >> >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to > >> protest > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at > >> Siri > >> >> >> Fort. > >> >> >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she > didn't > >> >> know > >> >> >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the > biased > >> >> >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the > occasion > >> of > >> >> >> 60th > >> >> >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't > >> >> >> understand > >> >> >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture > here. > >> >> They > >> >> >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our > business; > >> we > >> >> >> were > >> >> >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have > some > >> >> >> doubts; > >> >> >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and > >> even > >> >> >> media cuttings of the event : - > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for > >> any > >> >> >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we > >> face > >> >> on > >> >> >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has > >> constantly > >> >> >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist > >> Yasin > >> >> >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star > >> treatment, > >> >> and > >> >> >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify > >> such > >> >> >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand > the > >> >> >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at > India > >> >> Gate. > >> >> >> It > >> >> >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one > >> could > >> >> >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying > >> his > >> >> >> acts. > >> >> >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly > >> mention > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, > >> >> inviting > >> >> >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting > >> 'Roots > >> >> In > >> >> >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire > >> >> >> community' > >> >> >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and > sad; > >> >> why > >> >> >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts > of > >> >> >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to > >> campaign > >> >> >> for > >> >> >> this. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is > >> >> difficult > >> >> >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 > >> years > >> >> >> now, > >> >> >> Sonia. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> In exile, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph > of > >> >> >> Yasin > >> >> >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was > his > >> >> >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of > >> them > >> >> had > >> >> >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the > attack > >> was > >> >> >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger > >> about > >> >> >> it a > >> >> >> > year and a half later is shameful. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced > >> >> >> > disappearances > >> >> >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at > >> Jantar > >> >> >> > Mantar. > >> >> >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, > myself > >> >> >> > included. > >> >> >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to > the > >> >> event. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the > >> >> >> conscience > >> >> >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or > >> >> compensation, > >> >> >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are > alive > >> >> allow > >> >> >> us > >> >> >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for > their > >> >> last > >> >> >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us > >> for > >> >> >> years. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just > >> >> exhumed > >> >> >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week > >> >> >> before-- and > >> >> >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold > a > >> >> noisy > >> >> >> > protest across the street. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah > >> Geelani > >> >> >> had > >> >> >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to > >> all > >> >> MPs > >> >> >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to > the > >> >> >> public > >> >> >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what > >> >> >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old > women > >> >> >> weeping > >> >> >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young > >> Kashmiri > >> >> >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India > >> Gate > >> >> >> lawns > >> >> >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the > >> >> >> guesthouse > >> >> >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I > >> >> turned > >> >> >> at > >> >> >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and > half > >> >> >> blinded > >> >> >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash > the > >> >> muck > >> >> >> > out > >> >> >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw > that > >> >> the > >> >> >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was > >> obviously > >> >> >> meant > >> >> >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek > >> >> >> insignificantly. > >> >> >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the > collateral > >> >> >> damage. > >> >> >> > The irony was not lost on me. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It > took > >> more > >> >> >> than > >> >> >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined > >> forever > >> >> and > >> >> >> > had > >> >> >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as > the > >> day > >> >> >> of > >> >> >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was > >> grateful > >> >> to > >> >> >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I > knew > >> I > >> >> >> could > >> >> >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which > >> >> Aditya > >> >> >> is > >> >> >> > a > >> >> >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they > will > >> say > >> >> >> how > >> >> >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, > >> and I > >> >> >> have > >> >> >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but > Aditya > >> >> >> betrayed > >> >> >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question > now. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a > protest > >> at > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present > but > >> >> heard > >> >> >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group > show > >> >> that > >> >> >> > had > >> >> >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced > disappearances I > >> >> >> assume > >> >> >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the > victims > >> of > >> >> >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not > >> countenance > >> >> the > >> >> >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack > of > >> >> >> lies, > >> >> >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that > >> denounces > >> >> >> > State > >> >> >> > terrorism? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who > were > >> >> >> targeted > >> >> >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group > of > >> >> >> Pandits > >> >> >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other > victims > >> of > >> >> >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by > >> this > >> >> >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the > >> pain > >> >> of > >> >> >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others > to > >> >> >> identify > >> >> >> > with yours. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Sonia Jabbar > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > >> >> >> > > To: sarai list > >> >> >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > check here - > >> >> >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > -- > >> >> >> > Aditya Raj > >> >> >> > > Kaul > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> >> >> > Personal Blog: > >> >> >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> > Critiques & > >> >> >> > > Collaborations > >> >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> >> >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >> >> >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> > List archive: > >> >> >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- > >> >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > >> >> >> Cell - +91-9873297834 > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> >> >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > > >> >> > Change is the only constant in life ! > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > Change is the only constant in life ! > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Oct 24 23:59:26 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:29:26 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810241045v2a9d2aacifb4da6f27af29ad5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240748l62b7dc07lddb0c34a40e2d004@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810240938i3e212fefm7980cf564458fdce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810241045v2a9d2aacifb4da6f27af29ad5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49021406.5030004@gmail.com> I agree. Spitting is much better. Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: ... and thus don't want to continue this discussion. > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 00:19:43 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:49:43 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik] Message-ID: <490218C7.2050108@gmail.com> just a clarification before somebody spits on me and i am caught without a raincoat - i do not believe people like yasin malik are, necessarily and in a generic way, people who act with the noblest of intentions, and do not need a little disciplining now and then. that is, in the present indian context, whether they are kashmiri "freedom fighters" or gujarati "soldiers" of lord hanuman or verbal/verbose boxers of parliamentary politics. -------- Original Message -------- I agree. Spitting is much better. Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: ... and thus don't want to continue this discussion. > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 01:07:09 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 01:07:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aditya, Since you are in the habit of obfuscating and muddying the waters, a few facts for those who are interested: 1. A jan sunvai is just that, a public hearing and an appeal, not a protest. 2. Yasin Malik did not lead 'my' protest. He was one of many who chose to lend support to an effort which originated with a desire from the parents of the disappeared as a last ditch effort to get a hearing from a seemingly uncaring Indian public. 3. The day long fast for peace and hope (and not a hunger strike as you cynically call it ended at dusk where we all broke the fast with fruit juice, fruit and biscuits). If you were not so wholly focused on Yasin you might have noticed that. Anyway, whether Yasin fasted for the entire day or chose to enjoy mutton or chicken, bhelpuri or a T-bone steak with Kasuri at whatever point was no one's concern. We were too busy with the testimonials to be fascinated by Yasin's departure and dietary preferences. 4. Please clarify what you mean by 'this cowardly act of some "Delhi group" of yours,' I really don't understand your grammar, syntax or intention. 5. If you were beaten and arrested by no less than '300 jawans' you must have broken the law in some horribly disgusting manner, or are you flattering yourself by suggesting that it required 300 jawans to counter the power of '15-25 youth.' 6. The Shiv Sena never claimed responsibility to the best of my knowledge. Who are the 'media sources' who told you so? Kindly post the news item which carries a definitive claim by the Sena. 7. If, according to you, Yasin Malik is a rapist who has 'killed hundreds of Hindus' why is it that the Indian state has not charged him for a single case of rape or murder of one, let alone hundreds of Hindus? As far as I know the cases against him are 1. The Rubaiya Sayeed kidnapping case and 2) The shooting of 6 IAF men. I am not aware of any cases against him of the killings of civilians. Pease do enlighten me if I am wrong. As far as I know the state is yet to frame the charge sheet against Yasin Malik and others in these two cases. If you are frustrated by the delays crucify the legal system, why vent your ire on me? 8. Please also explain if Yasin Malik is such a dreaded terrorist why it is that the JKLF, of which he is the chairman, is not a banned organization and why is it that if the highest authorities of this country can see it fit to meet him, talk to him, eat with him and engage in official dialogues with him it offends you so much that a journalist and peace activist like me should end up doing the same? 9. Kindly enlighten me about the procedure in other civilized countries when a group lays down weapons and surrenders, declares that they will stand trial, undertakes that they will never again take up the gun and that their struggle will now be a non-violent one? Are they lynched by vigilante groups like yours, or are they rehabilitated? What do you think we should do with such people in a democratic country like ours, Aditya? FYI, Yasin Malik has served jail sentences, never ever jumped bail or tried to escape the law since he surrendered in 1994. 10. It amazes me that you and Roots are still so focused on Yasin Malik. This is in the year 2008 and not the early '90s when the JKLF was all powerful. They were quickly eclipsed by the Hizb and hundreds of other lethal tanzeems. By the end of that decade groups like Lashkar and Jaish came on the scene with their unprecedented striking power and suicide squads. Today, in 2008 even they are a minor force in the politics of J&K, so what can one say about the JKLF, cash-strapped and cadre-less as it is, but that it is Yasin's efforts and charisma that keeps it alive. And yet I don't see you hurling abuse and invectives at any other leader: not the Mirwaiz or the Lone brothers, not Shabir Shah or Naeem Khan, not Azam Inquilabi or Amanullah Khan, chief of the JKLF, who launched young boys like Yasin into Kashmir with guns in 1989, and not even Syed Ali Shah Geelani who is considered no less than the Amir-e-jihad, the supreme leader of the jihad. Both the Mirwaiz and Geelani have repeatedly declared support for a violent movement, whereas Yasin has since 1994 shunned the gun, so I really do find it odd that you should focus on him rather than those who continue to advocate violence against India and its people. 11. In case you haven't notice there is a peace process that has been underway for the last 8 years. A peace process means you make peace with erstwhile enemies, not people who already agree with you. This includes talking to them, trying to understand their point of view and trying to adjust and accommodate their aspirations while negotiating that they do the same with you. In the next few years you may see the Government of India not just talking to Yasin Malik but also Syed Salahuddin of the United Jihad Council. Whatever will you say then, young Aditya, when you see me talking to him? Sincerely, Sonia Jabbar > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:43:51 +0530 > To: sarai list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on Internet; > the picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided > to share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my > memory back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your protest > early in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it was > the same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later > seen enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you mentioned > were crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of > my business. :-) There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your > last e-mail; things need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. > We had no intention to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a > psychopath killer Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of > yours which you don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. We > all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans against Yasin > Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those MP's (other > powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by the ACP of that > area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was only that we > were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a > terrorist peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military > personnel surrounded us there suddenly. Early evening we ended our protest > after Police released some of our activists who were earlier arrested. We > called it a day then itself; and moved towards our respective homes. Late at > night we received calls from Media and Police; questioning us on the incident > which took place at India Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the > night through some media sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had > taken responsibility into this incident. We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe > in harming others physically, that is a coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one > of them who mindlessly raped, kidnapped and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus > in the valley which led to the exodus of half a million souls. He didn't even > leave IAF personnel and killed them on a bus stop; not to mention how he > killed Kashmiri Muslim women; just because they were close to Kashmiri > Pandits. If you still want to blame us and that makes you happy, I won't stop > you. You can live with your imagination friend :-) I wonder, how could you > organise such a public gathering; with a terrorist being a part of such act. > I'm sure you must have thought a thousand times before such a drastic > step. Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always have > a problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin Malik? > Why shouldn't we protest? Later, days after this event, a journalist believed > to be close to JKLF Gang members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my > right to protest that very day. I need not mention more or else they might > just harm me. Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event > at Siri Fort. I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she > didn't know the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the > biased reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion of > 60th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't > understand where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture > here. They must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our > business; we were outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still > have some doubts; please visit the following link which has photographs, > details and even media cuttings of the event : > - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-agai > nst.html I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for > any apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we face > on and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has > constantly lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist > Yasin Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star treatment, > and put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify > such killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand > the difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. I sympathise with you > Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India Gate. It was a cowardly act and > unfortunate. However, this is the least one could suffer after encouraging a > terrorist openly and further justifying his acts. I for sure cannot take your > e-mail so casually, where you openly mention of supporting a terrorist. Why > ? I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, > inviting this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting > 'Roots In Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire > community' which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and > sad; why you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts > of terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to campaign > for this. Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is > difficult to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 > years now, Sonia. In exile, Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar > wrote: > > > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the > link with the photograph of Yasin > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm > pretty convinced it was his > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to > me that none of them had > anything to do with the attack on my car. > > I > said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack was > > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger about it a > > year and a half later is shameful. > > For those on the List who are unaware, > here is what happened: > > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims > of enforced > disappearances > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a > public hearing at Jantar > Mantar. > The event was organised by a group of > Delhi based citizens, myself > included. > Yasin Malik and some other > separatist leaders lent support to the event. > > It was a day-long event > where woman after woman appealed to the conscience > of India. Their message > was simple: we don't want jobs or compensation, > just tell us if our children > are dead or alive. If they are alive allow us > to meet them, if they are > dead, tell us so we can arrange for their last > rites and bury forever the > hopes and fears that have tortured us for years. > > Instead of reaching out > to these women-- a few who had only just exhumed > their loved ones at an > unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week before-- and > making common cause with > them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a noisy > protest across the > street. > > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah > Geelani had > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to > all MPs > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the > public > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what > > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women weeping > > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young Kashmiri > > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. > > That > evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India Gate lawns > just > so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the guesthouse > for > the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I turned at > the > Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half blinded > me. > I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the muck > out > of > my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that the > plastic > bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was obviously meant > for Yasin > Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek insignificantly. > Whereas, > like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral damage. > The irony > was not lost on me. > > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite > medication. It took more than > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My > clothes were ruined forever and > had > to be discarded. My car still carries > dark stains as fresh as the day of > the attack despite repeated efforts by > the garage. But I was grateful to > have gotten off lightly. Had I been > driving a little faster I knew I could > have crashed into the circle or into > another car. > > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of > which Aditya is > a > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course > they will say how > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you > cannot, and I have > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, > but Aditya betrayed > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I > question now. > > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a > protest at the > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not > present but heard > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large > group show that > had > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced > disappearances I assume > the protest was directed either at me and my work, > or the victims of > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not > countenance the > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a > pack of lies, > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that > denounces > State > terrorism? > > As someone who has for years extended > support to Pandits who were targeted > in the early '90s, I find it both > amusing and sad that a group of Pandits > find it intolerable when I extend > similar support to other victims of > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you > damage your own cause by this > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to > identify with the pain of > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to > find others to identify > with yours. > > > Sonia Jabbar > > > > From: Aditya > Raj Kaul > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > > > To: sarai list > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face > of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > > > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) > ...lol > > check here - > > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > > -- > Aditya Raj > > > Kaul > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal > Blog: > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & > > Collaborations > To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Aditya Raj > Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - > +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & > Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Sat Oct 25 04:03:32 2008 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:33:32 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Ars Electronica, voestalpine and Linz09 Message-ID: <61660701-14B0-4F0A-B24D-C59B113D2E6A@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Check this out, deadline is 31st, but applications require only 1000 words max.: http://www.80plus1.org/ Best -- Britta ___________________ Britta Ohm Postdoc University of Zurich UPRP Asia and Europe Office: Scheuchzerstr. 21 8006 Zürich Switzerland tel. +41-(0)44-634 49 61 fax. +41-(0)44-634 49 21 britta.ohm at access.uzh.ch www.asienundeuropa.uzh.ch Home: Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-695 07 155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Ekkehardstr. 18 8006 Zürich Switzerland +41-(0)43-2689077 From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 10:54:00 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:54:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810242224u366d1a00s2202f3ca1e2aa416@mail.gmail.com> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar, Many Thanks for your further clarifications, I'm glad you have shifted your focus towards less of allegations now; but unfortunately, your words never swim anywhere near 'facts'. Hope I'm able to help you with this and as well let others know much of 'reality' as I did earlier in true sense of the term. Honestly it is very strange why 'Sonia Jabbar' goes an extra mile to defend and speak for this Terrorist 'Yasin Malik. Its very unlikely with others here; defending on every point and encouraging him. A lot seems fishy after this second e-mail. But, anyways. I won't question you on your personal matters and affiliations. :-) Let me go point after point, correcting your deliberate mis-information. :- 1. A Jan Sunvai is just another form of protest which includes public hearing and appeal. It isn't that it was organised the first time on 22nd Feb. 2007 at Jantar Mantar; with your dear friend and Terrorist Yasin Malik being around. 2. I myself being present at Jantar Mantar saw 'Yasin Malik' in black kurtah-pyjama like clothes early in the morning; and thus thought he was one of the organisers or persons leading. I apologise; it was Sonia Jabbar who led the protest and Yasin Malik just followed her. Strange why only Yasin Malik and likes chose to follow you; is the rest lot sleeping or are they aware of this propaganda in wider detail. Ahhhh!!! No, they were not in the invitees list. 3. Most media houses covered it as a token hunger strike. And, that is where I quoted your protest from. None of my own words Ma'am Jabbar. I wasn't present at India Gate, and I didn't see any of fruits or those buscuits you mentioned there. However, I saw this very terrorist Yasin Malik leaving to meet Kasuri and then soon after returning. A tooth-pick in his hand wasn't just something we noticed then. Mutton or Chicken; you know better. :-) 4. Hope you be a little more understanding. It isn't my words that yor don't understand; they are your's itself. I quoted your words. What was the need to call upon this terrorist Yasin Malik there? And, what Delhi Citizens Group is it? Again Imagination or some bigger powers above you? 5. 300 or even more Police was deployed there soon after our arrival; this even you know. I present here just two of the pictures which unfortunately gives a smaller particular view; but still lot many Police men are present to prove my point right. Now were you afraid of merely 25 Kashmiri Pandit youth who were peacefully protesting; I don't know. Check pictures on these links :- http://www.rootsinkashmir.org/images/yasin/image5.jpg http://www.rootsinkashmir.org/images/yasin/image8.jpg 6. I don't need to quote news sources. Your own gang mate Tapan Bose wrote this in an article in Kashmir Times. In an article titled - Victims of Disappearance and HR abuses in J&K" Tapan Kumar Bose writes, "There were those who disagreed, And they took their anger out in a physical attack on Yasin Mallik. As he was driving off with Sonia Jabbar to join the group at India Gate, a red Swift Car obstructed their path, and seizing the opportunity of their slowing down, hurled a bag at them. It was blue dye that spattered Yasin Malik, Sonia Jabbar and the car. Chanting "jai Shiv Sena", they assailants drove of." Link to this article published in Kashmir Times is here - http://www.kashmirtimes.com/archive/0702/070227/feature.htm PTI quoted saying they were 'unidentified people'. Many J&K based newspapers and even National channels said they were 'Shiv Sena' members. UNI Release covers this event at length - http://www.rootsinkashmir.org/press/feb2207rallypress.php I haven't saved media cuttings of those; please search archives. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 10:56:22 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:56:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is an important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal Politics. He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri Pandits, but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement inside and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him. Today 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in Jammu where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends. I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just another figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We do protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest with the HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of many. We can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led to exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery mechanism. Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you speak for him ? Can I smell something? 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one knows why nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one wishes to dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about him. In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the reacton from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim Sebestian's BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence speaks a thousand words. You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type. 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and apologise for the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more people; will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No country is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon Yasin Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to 1994 he was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into pieces. He killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area. Yasin Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to encourage him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something else push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your Narender Modi is in picture ? 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would continue to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath killer and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our rights and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question. We have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And, the public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All through our conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support Yasin Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for some movement. There is a lot behind the curtains. What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a street hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me laugh Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you are; because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone just wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues. I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright. 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of Yasin Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain intact. Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk to him ? Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the protest rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just the way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate attention, there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An aazad Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically, geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second thought on this. The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres. A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such terrorists roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might happen in future and in which direction talks will shape up. It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his own people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm sure you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. Also, Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases pending against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but in the Central Jail ... :-) And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where from you jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external hands guiding you into it. Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and meet Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists. Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that they started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how things shape now... We both would be here somewhere. And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting or campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail. P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I don't want to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a bit tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions are at doubt. Best, From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 11:10:22 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] for those wanting Muslims to join mainstream Message-ID: <880715.57345.qm@web51409.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Amroha girl joined Indian Space Research Organisation Among the scores of families of ISRO scientists who woke up early on Wednesday, prayed and waited for the successful lift-off of Chandrayaan I, was one in Chaugori Mohalla, a tiny, traditional Muslim neighbourhood in UP’s Amroha. Khushboo Mirza is just one of the 12 engineers of the Check-Out Division of Chandrayaan I which carried out the thermal, vacuum and assembling checks on each component of the satellite. But the story of the 23 year-old is inspiration for a village which once looked at her journey in shock and disbelief. When her father died when she was seven, her mother, Farhat, broke norms to run the family’s petrol pump to keep her children in school. Her brother, Khushtar, a 2005 B.Tech from Jamia Millia Islamia, shelved his career ambitions to take charge later. To get out of the claustrophobic by lanes of Amroha, Khushboo applied for B Tech at Aligarh Muslim University. A volleyball player, she qualified through the sports quota. When she graduated, she landed a lucrative job with Adobe but gave it up to join ISRO two years ago. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 11:45:53 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:45:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810231041k6259209t67fa3a1dde881792@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810240415x342a6af3wa508438fde5fe934@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810240607h313e344cs3002af03cec060eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810242315g5a4aa5b1p4093e84accc2211d@mail.gmail.com> Inder, I do not either condemn the demolition of a structure in Ayodhya for re-building of grand Rama temple and neither condemn what happened to Yasin Malik. Yasin Malik , for his crimes should have been sent to gallows long back. And we trust the Indian system , sooner or later he would be there. Roots would keep on being focussed on yasin Malik for it serves two ends. a. Yasin was the first person to get guns to Kashmir and the backbone of the "Jihad". b. Yasin Malik is sarling of Indian beurocrats and Indian strategists. We would not let them make a hero out of villian , even if it means our exile from Kashmir for a longer duration. Sonia : I know you have been closely associated with Kashmir issue at different levels. I know you have good access and information. Atleast you should have been honest for Yasin's crime and you know he DID it. Pls accept what is known and what is right. Thats whats the differnce. Roots is honest if not diplomatic. Pawan On 10/24/08, inder salim wrote: > > Dear Yunus, > thanks for picking up the nuance in the aditya's mail. > > right now we have an image in front of us : INK ON 'YASIN MALIK', by > Shiv Sena ( we believe Aditya ) > , > I believe, the moment you incorporate a particular image in your > discourse, it speaks differently. Here, The same image if included, > for example by Sonia will produce opposite results in comparison to > Aditya's... > > So, here, sonia has made it clear that how she looks at the image, but > Aditya, remains contradictory, either he should condemn openly the > Shiv Sena's cowardly act ( who openly own the demolition of Babri > Mosque also, and their off-springs threaten North Indians in > Maharashtra ) or he should approve the act as celebratory. That > simply will solve the problem for both what the images speaks for > whom. And if it is celebratory, then he approves the act, which he > denies at the moment. he has still a choice. > > about Nizam-Mustafa: > there are many ways to understand it. > > humour: in kashmiri a poet Ayub Sabir says, Rozdari gatch asin raats, > be travha kalai shong. ( I would have slept quite early in the > evening, if Ramazan fasting was during the nights) . He is a friend, > and such poets and people are very much part of the kashmiri society, > even during such harsh times. > > yesterday, i saw, I AM ISTANBUL by Mohan Maharishi at IGNCA. a > great play based on Orhan Pamuk novel ( Nobel winner ) > > it is 16th century, istanbul. and its Kahwa khana ( bohemian's club, > gays, dancing and all that ) was attacked by fundamentalists of those > times, who explicitly talked about Nizam-Mustafa. Before the attack, > the spokesperson of kahwa khanna made fun of these rufffians who > attack such alternative ways of life, but simultaneously criticized > the western writers like Mark Twain, who wrote in detail about these > kahawa khanas, which perhaps motivated these groups to react > violently. > > The famous Iranian film maker Makhmalbaf too pointed out the fact > that demolition of Bamyian Buddha in Afganistan happened because > American policies in our region. > > Needless to say, that Lahore has much fashion on the streets than in > kashmir, the reason is perhaps, Indian policies in Kashmir. > One simply can not forget how the MUF ( Muslim United Front ) was > denied the victory in early 87-88 elections which perhaps, sparked the > sleepy JKLF in 1989. > > warmly > > is > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Syed Yunus wrote: > > May be I m wrong while using 'ruling kashmir' what i meant was young > leaders > > who will determine the future. > > > > I can understand how terrorising it must be to face the bullets, for any > > body. > > > > Also there are numerous version of Nizam-e- mustafa & not not only > islamic > > state, For instance I'm an indian, which is not an Islamic state still I > get > > ample scope to follow Nizam-e-Mustafa, while dealing with people, doing > > business, being a community member of the neighbourhood, doing charity, > > while travelling in other countries. performing my work duties etc. and I > do > > all this openly with out any guilt (or commiting any crime) because it > does > > not harm any body ( not even verbally) > > > > also the true Nizam-e mustafa do not approve of terrorising people at gun > > point :) > > but it clearly stops people to say bad words or malign somebody. > > > > Im keen on listening you & other people on this list, > > > > > > best, > > > > Yunus > > > > > > > > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> > >> Syed bhai, > >> > >> I had no intention to terrorise you, my friend Sonia or anybody on this > >> list > >> for that matter. I just put forth my honest opinion. > >> > >> If you got so terrified and threatned by mere one line in my e-mail; I'm > >> sure you can imagine what happened to thousands of people when Yasin > Malik > >> and his gang members shuddered bullets into innocent people of Kashmir; > for > >> just no reason. The insane Yasin Malik calls this freedom struggle. What > >> kind of freedom is this; where he openly kills anyone in broad day-light > ? > >> > >> There isa wide difference between us 'Kashmiri Pandits' and the > >> 'terrorists'. We don't speak of ruling Kashmir. They do; they want to > carve > >> out an Islamic State - Nizam-e-Mustama. We are happy Indians as always > and > >> don't suffer from hypocritic mentality of these 'terrorists' who want to > >> eliminate the 'minority'. > >> > >> Future of Kashmir is dark till figures like Yasin Malik roam free and > enjoy > >> the cream from all areas. Lets make present better. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > >> On 10/24/08, Syed Yunus wrote: > >> > > >> > Aditya, > >> > > >> > I found your reply threatening & terrorising Sonia jabbar for not > >> speaking > >> > for you & your cause, > >> > > >> > qoating you > >> > > >> > "I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India > >> Gate. > >> > It > >> > was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one > could > >> > suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying his > >> > acts." > >> > > >> > to clarify my stand im not a fan of Yaseen Malik, or any other person > >> whom > >> > you call terrorist. > >> > > >> > also I was wondering what would happen when you or other kashmiri > young > >> > leaders will rule the kashmir, i mean certainly there must be some > >> thoughts > >> > about the future of kashmir & its people, there is lot to do after > >> > intimidating & terrorising people. > >> > > >> > best, > >> > > >> > Yunus > >> > > >> > On 10/24/08, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> > >> >> My dear friend Sonia Jabbar. It was a Times Now News item on > Internet; > >> the > >> >> picture displayed; was self-explanatory and informative, so I decided > to > >> >> share it with the List members. Anyways, Thanks for refreshing my > memory > >> >> back into early 2007, when this terrorist Yasin Malik led your > protest > >> >> early > >> >> in the morning of Feb. 22nd at Jantar Mantar near CP. I believe it > was > >> the > >> >> same day; Yasin Malik chose to have a hunger strike, and was later > seen > >> >> enjoying mutton with Kasuri; while the very same mother's you > mentioned > >> >> were > >> >> crying at the protest site. Nevertheless; it is certainly none of my > >> >> business. :-) > >> >> > >> >> There is a lot of imagination which has resulted in your last e-mail; > >> >> things > >> >> need to be much more clear. Let me clarify a few myself. We had no > >> >> intention > >> >> to harm anybody; we merely had come to protest against a psychopath > >> killer > >> >> Yasin Malik. This cowardly act of some "Delhi group' of yours which > you > >> >> don't feel important to mention doesn't go in a good way. > >> >> > >> >> We all stood their opposite your protest gathering; raising slogans > >> >> against > >> >> Yasin Malik's presence. Despite our peaceful means; by your and those > >> MP's > >> >> (other powers) orders we 15-25 youth were forced into a barracde by > the > >> >> ACP > >> >> of that area. Some of us were even beaten and arrested. Our crime was > >> only > >> >> that we were holding the tri-clolour and raising slogans against a > >> >> terrorist > >> >> peacefully. Some 300 Delhi Police Jawans and other para-military > >> personnel > >> >> surrounded us there suddenly. > >> >> > >> >> Early evening we ended our protest after Police released some of our > >> >> activists who were earlier arrested. We called it a day then itself; > and > >> >> moved towards our respective homes. Late at night we received calls > from > >> >> Media and Police; questioning us on the incident which took place at > >> India > >> >> Gate. We had no information on it. Late into the night through some > >> media > >> >> sources we came to know that "Shiv Sena" members had taken > >> responsibility > >> >> into this incident. > >> >> > >> >> We 'Kashmiri Pandits' don't believe in harming others physically, > that > >> is > >> >> a > >> >> coward's sign. Yasin Malik being one of them who mindlessly raped, > >> >> kidnapped > >> >> and killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in the valley which led to the > >> >> exodus > >> >> of half a million souls. He didn't even leave IAF personnel and > killed > >> >> them > >> >> on a bus stop; not to mention how he killed Kashmiri Muslim women; > just > >> >> because they were close to Kashmiri Pandits. If you still want to > blame > >> us > >> >> and that makes you happy, I won't stop you. You can live with your > >> >> imagination friend :-) > >> >> > >> >> I wonder, how could you organise such a public gathering; with a > >> terrorist > >> >> being a part of such act. I'm sure you must have thought a thousand > >> times > >> >> before such a drastic step. > >> >> > >> >> Also, How do you question our right to protest? Do you just always > have > >> a > >> >> problem with RIK protesting against your friend Terrorist Yasin > Malik? > >> Why > >> >> shouldn't we protest? > >> >> > >> >> Later, days after this event, a journalist believed to be close to > JKLF > >> >> Gang > >> >> members, sent me a threatening e-mail; questioning my right to > protest > >> >> that > >> >> very day. I need not mention more or else they might just harm me. > >> >> > >> >> Similarly, you mentioned about the Amnesty International event at > Siri > >> >> Fort. > >> >> I don't know who briefed you about our protest; surely he/she didn't > >> know > >> >> the facts in totality. The protest was organised against the biased > >> >> reporting conducted by Amnesty International India; on the occasion > of > >> >> 60th > >> >> Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't > >> >> understand > >> >> where "Sonia Jabbar" or her clicked photographs come in picture here. > >> They > >> >> must have been in some corner inside; that was none of our business; > we > >> >> were > >> >> outside the auditorium; silently protesting. If you still have some > >> >> doubts; > >> >> please visit the following link which has photographs, details and > even > >> >> media cuttings of the event : - > >> >> > >> >> > >> > http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2008/01/kashmiri-pandits-protest-against.html > >> >> > >> >> I hope I've answered all your questions at length. I won't ask for > any > >> >> apology from you; this propaganda has become a trend now which we > face > >> on > >> >> and off. Just to tease 'Kashmiri Pandit Community' which has > constantly > >> >> lived under the threat of terrorist organisation JKLF; a terrorist > Yasin > >> >> Malik is time and again flown to New Delhi given all 5-star > treatment, > >> and > >> >> put in front of media glare as an Icon. Shame on those who glorify > such > >> >> killers and then say we sympathise with the victims. Understand the > >> >> difference between a 'victim' and a 'terrorist'. > >> >> > >> >> I sympathise with you Sonia; of whatever pain you suffered at India > >> Gate. > >> >> It > >> >> was a cowardly act and unfortunate. However, this is the least one > could > >> >> suffer after encouraging a terrorist openly and further justifying > his > >> >> acts. > >> >> I for sure cannot take your e-mail so casually, where you openly > mention > >> >> of > >> >> supporting a terrorist. Why ? > >> >> > >> >> I welcome your support for Pandits. But, Sonia let me inform you, > >> inviting > >> >> this bloody terrorist Yasin Malik'; would be indirectly inviting > 'Roots > >> In > >> >> Kashmir' always. Please don't compare a terrorist with "an entire > >> >> community' > >> >> which was thrown out of the valley at gun point. Its strange and sad; > >> why > >> >> you don't stand up and raise your voice against the dastardly acts of > >> >> terrorism committed by Yasin Malik and his gang ? I dare you to > campaign > >> >> for > >> >> this. > >> >> > >> >> Its easy to write hundreds of words for such a person; but it is > >> difficult > >> >> to stand hand in hand with a 'minority' for Justice. Its been 18 > years > >> >> now, > >> >> Sonia. > >> >> > >> >> In exile, > >> >> > >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 10/24/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > I thank Aditya Raj Kaul for posting the link with the photograph of > >> >> Yasin > >> >> > Malik's paint spattered face. Now I'm pretty convinced it was his > >> >> > handiwork, despite Roots-in-Kashmir swearing to me that none of > them > >> had > >> >> > anything to do with the attack on my car. > >> >> > > >> >> > I said it then and I will say it again-- now publicly-- the attack > was > >> >> > cowardly and despicable and that Aditya still chooses to snigger > about > >> >> it a > >> >> > year and a half later is shameful. > >> >> > > >> >> > For those on the List who are unaware, here is what happened: > >> >> > > >> >> > In Feb. 2007 the mothers and wives of the victims of enforced > >> >> > disappearances > >> >> > in Kashmir, a group of about 60, came for a public hearing at > Jantar > >> >> > Mantar. > >> >> > The event was organised by a group of Delhi based citizens, myself > >> >> > included. > >> >> > Yasin Malik and some other separatist leaders lent support to the > >> event. > >> >> > > >> >> > It was a day-long event where woman after woman appealed to the > >> >> conscience > >> >> > of India. Their message was simple: we don't want jobs or > >> compensation, > >> >> > just tell us if our children are dead or alive. If they are alive > >> allow > >> >> us > >> >> > to meet them, if they are dead, tell us so we can arrange for their > >> last > >> >> > rites and bury forever the hopes and fears that have tortured us > for > >> >> years. > >> >> > > >> >> > Instead of reaching out to these women-- a few who had only just > >> exhumed > >> >> > their loved ones at an unmarked grave in Ganderbal the week > >> >> before-- and > >> >> > making common cause with them, Roots-in-Kashmir decided to hold a > >> noisy > >> >> > protest across the street. > >> >> > > >> >> > Why? Simply because Yasin Malik, Sajad Lone and Syed Ali Shah > Geelani > >> >> had > >> >> > arrived to express solidarity. FYI invitations were sent out to > all > >> MPs > >> >> > across party lines, and none besides Nirmala Deshpande came to the > >> >> public > >> >> > event. Had a few decided to express solidarity I wonder what > >> >> > Roots-in-Kashmir would have done. It was shameful to see old women > >> >> weeping > >> >> > and begging to be told the truth while a group of angry young > Kashmiri > >> >> > Pandits screamed and hurled invectives from across the street. > >> >> > > >> >> > That evening after the event we decided to proceed to the India > Gate > >> >> lawns > >> >> > just so the women could relax for a bit before returning to the > >> >> guesthouse > >> >> > for the night. The bus was full so Yasin got into my car. As I > >> turned > >> >> at > >> >> > the Meridien circle, something burst against my dashboard and half > >> >> blinded > >> >> > me. I braked instinctively. When at last I had managed to wash the > >> muck > >> >> > out > >> >> > of my eye and mouth from the bottle of water in the car, I saw that > >> the > >> >> > plastic bag full of some ghastly, indelible ink, which was > obviously > >> >> meant > >> >> > for Yasin Malik had missed its target, splashing his cheek > >> >> insignificantly. > >> >> > Whereas, like most terror attacks, I was the victim, the collateral > >> >> damage. > >> >> > The irony was not lost on me. > >> >> > > >> >> > My eye watered for the next 24 hours despite medication. It took > more > >> >> than > >> >> > a week for ink to fade from my skin. My clothes were ruined > forever > >> and > >> >> > had > >> >> > to be discarded. My car still carries dark stains as fresh as the > day > >> >> of > >> >> > the attack despite repeated efforts by the garage. But I was > grateful > >> to > >> >> > have gotten off lightly. Had I been driving a little faster I knew > I > >> >> could > >> >> > have crashed into the circle or into another car. > >> >> > > >> >> > I cannot take Aditya's post lightly. Roots in Kashmir, of which > >> Aditya > >> >> is > >> >> > a > >> >> > member, has never apologized for the action. Of course they will > say > >> >> how > >> >> > can we apologize for something we didn't do. Indeed you cannot, > and I > >> >> have > >> >> > no proof that it was you or some other cowardly group, but Aditya > >> >> betrayed > >> >> > his gleeful approval of the event and this is what I question now. > >> >> > > >> >> > I also question the decision of Roots in Kashmir to hold a protest > at > >> >> the > >> >> > Amnesty photography show earlier this year. I was not present but > >> heard > >> >> > about it later. Since the only photographs in the large group show > >> that > >> >> > had > >> >> > to do with Kashmir were my photographs on enforced disappearances I > >> >> assume > >> >> > the protest was directed either at me and my work, or the victims > of > >> >> > enforced disappearances. Why is it that Roots could not > countenance > >> the > >> >> > exhibition, why did they want to shut me up? Was the work a pack of > >> >> lies, > >> >> > was it propaganda? Or does RIK have a problem with work that > denounces > >> >> > State > >> >> > terrorism? > >> >> > > >> >> > As someone who has for years extended support to Pandits who were > >> >> targeted > >> >> > in the early '90s, I find it both amusing and sad that a group of > >> >> Pandits > >> >> > find it intolerable when I extend similar support to other victims > of > >> >> > violence in Kashmir. I can only say you damage your own cause by > this > >> >> > attitude: if you cannot find it within you to identify with the > pain > >> of > >> >> > others, you will find it increasingly difficult to find others to > >> >> identify > >> >> > with yours. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Sonia Jabbar > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:11:11 +0530 > >> >> > > To: sarai list > >> >> > > Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > The real face of Terrorist Yasin Malik :-) ...lol > >> >> > > >> >> > check here - > >> >> > > http://www.timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=19235 > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Aditya Raj > >> >> > > Kaul > >> >> > > >> >> > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > Personal Blog: > >> >> > > http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> >> > > >> >> > _________________________________________ > >> >> > > >> >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> > Critiques & > >> >> > > Collaborations > >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> >> > > with subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> > To unsubscribe: > >> >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> > List archive: > >> >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul > >> >> > >> >> Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > >> >> Cell - +91-9873297834 > >> >> > >> >> Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > >> >> Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > Change is the only constant in life ! > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Change is the only constant in life ! > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rama.sangye at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 11:57:16 2008 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:57:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bengali literary assistants wanted Message-ID: <6ade4a8f0810242327w40ab4845s489153dc8f6dae66@mail.gmail.com> A Bengali literary publication project in Kolkata requires literary assistants. A high level of proficiency in literary Bangla is required. A ready for printing digital manuscript has to be prepared from a facsimile print of a hand-written manuscript. The work will involve transcription into very legible Bengali from a manuscript in Bengali, together with spelling checking; proof-reading and correction of DTP output (two rounds). The literary assistants would be expected to be involved through to the completion of the work. A consolidated remuneration would be paid for the entire assignment. Full-time involvement during the duration of the work is preferred. Contact: V Ramaswamy e-mail: rama.sangye at gmail.com Cell: 9830069413 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 12:45:18 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 03:15:18 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism In-Reply-To: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810182312i327240f3u10e8ae8b32128346@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4902C786.9090807@gmail.com> It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah is. My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation, because the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing, because the BJP's use of the “caste card” in elections is well documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not have been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the Hindutva agenda. That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed to all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not above casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins – Aditya's own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics. Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles wide of the mark. > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not permit > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, > are the foundation of Hinduism. Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism and what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the heterogeneity of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World Hindu Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this: anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity of one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi (basil) plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria. What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the belief of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on account of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very major way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus, the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from school textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go to school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees in many areas. When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white people, not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that the caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are very harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places. There is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of Brahmins. Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves only one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the Sangh Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate casteism or other harmful practices. Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads. Tapas Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > > SECTION – I > > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > resides in him. > > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > caste system or birth based caste system. > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > days as compared to other civilizations. > > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > sometime in 1800 AD." > > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > fraudulent methods. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 14:54:27 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 02:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism In-Reply-To: <4902C786.9090807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <969292.55827.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Tapas,   >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its practice.   Good words n great recognition.  Practice makes one perfect.  You should not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion.  If you are celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some god what is that?  If you are chanting names like tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India?  what about the sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that?  If some body die then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what about them and what for they?  From birth to death  and after death everything is linked.  This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND HOLY SCRIPTURES.  EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA.   As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas.  You are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a way of performing dharma.  ,  You are not sufficient enough to comment about the Hindu dharma and ram. The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did tat way.   If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma.   coming back on CASTE.   Krishna in geeta says     1) chatur varna maya srishtam guna karma vibhagasha!        2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata         abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham!   not only that if we take other instance  from lalitha sahasranama,   3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini"   like this i can quote many   Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I dont wish to define.  Its all with time Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and have knowledge.   Regards, Dhatri.   --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah is. My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation, because the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing, because the BJP's use of the “caste card” in elections is well documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not have been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the Hindutva agenda. That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed to all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not above casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins – Aditya's own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics. Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles wide of the mark. > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not permit > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, > are the foundation of Hinduism. Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism and what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the heterogeneity of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World Hindu Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this: anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity of one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi (basil) plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria. What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the belief of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on account of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very major way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus, the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from school textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go to school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees in many areas. When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white people, not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that the caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are very harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places. There is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of Brahmins. Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves only one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the Sangh Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate casteism or other harmful practices. Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads. Tapas Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > > SECTION – I > > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX (29) > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > resides in him. > > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to 'select' (one's > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > caste system or birth based caste system. > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > days as compared to other civilizations. > > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the British and > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > sometime in 1800 AD." > > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group called > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > fraudulent methods. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 15:53:21 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:53:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When will Muslims join the mainstream? In-Reply-To: <753A9A34-95C1-4BB3-AE74-1651A9F9D1D7@sarai.net> References: <6353c690810200216g6248a276tc0795bdf9c039bc9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810210551x6815df32o6c1a702560153d15@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810210618x61747f94w3ea7b4b3d332445c@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220229r19c593f0s8d4f80ef860ca754@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30810220521u1a70e897o568c54053afaddd9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810220524p72246ee2x9b67e9195f936d59@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810232121j46bd3afey40a3c582be954ad6@mail.gmail.com> <7E87461E-DCCB-41D0-A84C-0D466E2AB074@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70810240137v16326a2aj79c0b38d16d07888@mail.gmail.com> <753A9A34-95C1-4BB3-AE74-1651A9F9D1D7@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810250323t59a0623aq78696793314fd0d2@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, What may be reported in Media is not a GoVt Notification. The Govt notification is Kashmiri Migrants . There are many non KP migrants who got benefitted. I would try to source the details. Meanwhile if you have a Govt notification which reads 5 % reservation for Kashmiri Pandits , Please share with rest of us. I know I am not a master of mixing words nor is this a full time job for me for which I get paid for. It is intresting to note that you love to refer a christian missionary site for your allegations and at the same time you love to hate Organiser and other portals. Pls have some parity. You may try to write DON-III . Farah Khan may you better. Regards Trust , One day Indian court will announce the capital punishment to Yasin. On 10/24/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan, > > > Unfortunately for you, the reports i cited do not only use the term > 'Kashmiri Migrants', they also use, in significant instances, the very > specific term 'Kashmiri Pandits'. And this is not my invention. I only > 'quote' them. > > > For instance, the report in the Hindu by Naunidhi Kaur, specifically says > - > > > "While in power, the Shiv Sena had instituted quotas for Kashmiri Pandits > in colleges in Maharashtra." Notice, the term used is 'pandits' not > 'migrants'. > > > Similarly, if you were to follow the link to the report titled "Quota for > Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges" in the Hindu for December 24, > 2004, you will see that the subject line (title) of the report uses the term > 'Kashmiri Pandits', not 'Kashmiri Migrants' > > > Morover, were you to go into the report you would read that this 'quota' > was announced by the then chief minister of Karnataka State, Dharam Singh, > at a Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits" organised by the All India > Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the Kashmiri Hindu Samithi, Karnataka. (both of > which are Kashmiri Pandit organizations) > > > If you read what he said while announcing these quotas, there can be no > denying the fact that the quotas are meant primarily to support Kashmiri > Pandit migrants. He says (as you would read if you had read the full > report) > > > "It is unfortunate that the original inhabitants of Jammu and Kashmir, the > Kashmiri Pandits, are tragic victims of systematic oppression and are > undergoing forced exile for the last 15 years. It is the responsibility of > the Union Government and society, on humanitarian grounds, to help them to > return to their homes," > > > Clearly, he is addressing a Kashmiri Pandit constituency by setting up an > institutional framework to meet their demands. > > > I do not believe that the question of forced internal displacement or > migration from Kashmir needs to be viewed in a secterian light. > > > And I am sure that the demands of 'non-Kashmiri Pandit' migrants from > Kashmir, (whether Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist, Chistian) are as justified > as those of exclusively Hindu, 'Kashmiri Pandit' migrants from Kashmir, if > they have migrated due to terror and intimidation. > > > There are instances, for example, of Kashmiri Christians (converts both > from Pandit as well as Muslim communities) who have been denied all help so > far by the government of India, or by the government of the state of Jammu > and Kashmir and are studiously ignored by the Kashmiri Pandit organizations > that claim to speak on behalf of migrants from Kashmir. > > > See - for further > details > > > Now, it might be interesting to know how many 'non Kashmiri Pandit' > migrants have been able to avail of these quotas in different states. Do you > have any figures (not anecdotes, figures) that you would be able to share > with the group, or will you continue to make what are simply insinuations. > If you have anything more substantial and verifiable than your personal > opinion, it might be useful. If not, I suggest you consider again who needs > to apologise to whom on the list. > > > I find your selective appropriation of pain sad and unfortunate. It truly > diminishes your capacity to give an account of suffering, and turns every > expression by you and your colleagues of that suffering into an opportunist > exercise. In the end, it is people like you that make it more, not less, > difficult for Kashmiri Pandit communities (whether displaced, or still > living in Kashmir) to lead a dignified life. > > > I hope that this dispute will end here, with the clarification of facts if > need be, because I for one do not want to see another endless round of > exchanges on things Kashmiri, to the exclusion of everything else on this > list > > > Shuddha > > > > > On 24-Oct-08, at 2:07 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Shuddha , > > > Thank you for your mail . I do nothing but apprecaite the way you mix words > > which suit your ideology. > > > In this case I must say you do a great dis service to SARAI by > manufacturing > > stories and mixing words. > > > Please check up the prood you have provided yourself. In this case it must > > be noted of how you have changed the subject line while refering to > > "Kashmiri Pandits" while as when anyone would go theorugh your "proof" of > > news links , the stories do mention that reservations are there , but it > > also does mention that the reservation is for Kashmiri Migrants. > > > I know you have a specific knowledge about Kashmir and Kashmiris . What i > > did not know that you were unaware that there were many caste and groups of > > people who are registered as Migrants from Kashmir. And you must be aware > of > > how many Kashmiri Muslims take advantage of this whether they are genuinely > > victimes of terrorism or not. > > > Also if at all in some specific course some reservation is metioned , that > > does not make a rule to generalise it. > > > Mr Shuddha , it needs a brave and a person of character to admit the wrong. > > Unfortunately both you and Shivam do not fit in any of these two. > > > Now Shuddha , ypou owe an apology to come clean of what made you come to > > support Shivam or is it that you both are supporters of separatist > > Kashmiris and hence common friends. > > > Some Mausere Bhai ....... > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 10/24/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > Pawan, > > > > In your post to Shivam you said - > > > > I am just asking you to clarify whether your details about 5% > > reservation to Kashmiri pandits in Maharshtra > > > or any state is true. > > > > Here are four references, with appropriate citations (below) on the subject > > of 'quotas' for admission of Kashmiri Pandit migrant candidates to > > educational institutions in different states (Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh > > and Karnataka). > > > > I see nothing wrong with them, just as I see nothing wrong with affirmative > > action initiatives in educational institutions for dalit, tribal and OBC > > students. Whosoever suffers social disabilities should be entitled to > > affirmative action in a caring society. I have nothing against Kashmiri > > Pandit migrants being entitled to affirmative action, for the same reason > > that i have nothing against Bangladeshi Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist migrants > > to Delhi or any other part of India being entitled (as I hope they will be > > one day) to affirmative action. > > > > Whosoever suffers due to migration, or social or political reasons, or > > whosoever's migration occurs because of suffering should be entitled to > care > > and hospitality by the host society. I believe this to be perfectly > > reasonable and humane. > > > > Coming to details, which you demand, you will notice that there is a > > specific mention of upto 5% (reservation) for Kashmiri Pandit students in > > non technical courses in Karnataka. > > > > I do hope that now you will consider offering the list, and Shivam Vij an > > apology for suggesting that he has been biased against Kashmiri Pandits > > while bringing up the subject of 'reservations' and acted as a 'compulsive > > liar'. Clearly, as the sources below indicate, he has not acted as a > > compulsive liar. In this case, it turns out that you have a bias against > > looking for available sources that go against your self imposed image of > > Kashmiri Pandits being the eternal and only victims in our midst. Their > > sufferings do not diminish simply because they are not the only ones to > > suffer. Please avoid making charges of this nature in the future. You do > > your community and its cause a great deal of disservice by these outbursts. > > Please check that you are not making a fool of yourself all over again > > before the next time you hit send after writing a post addressed to this > > listl. You do this way too often and I really feel bad for you. I would > > heartily recommend a degree of restraint to you. > > > > I also hope that Aditya Raj Kaul, whose political agenda in Delhi > > University Student politics has featured a heavy accent against the issue > of > > 'reservations' will consider carefully the fact that his argument against > > reservations can also extend to an argument against reservations for > > Kashmiri Pandit students. > > > > Perhaps, for the sake of consistency, he could either think of making a > > case against reservations for Kashmiri pandit migrant students within > > appropriate forums, such as 'Roots in Kashmir', or on the other hand, turn > > his considerable activist experience in a generally 'pro-reservation' > > direction, or at least refrain from commenting on the issue of reservations > > altogether. Either way, it is never too late to change one's mind. > > > > Of course, he need not, because continued hypocrisy (which works well in > > tandem with a loqacious self promotional agenda) is a perfectly valid > > political option, especially given the currently prevailing political > > culture in our glorious republic. > > > > Shuddha > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > 1. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Maharashtra Educational > > Institutions > > > > a) Extract from Report on Internal Displacement.org > > > < > > > http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument > > > > > "Maharashtra Government has made reservation of seats for children of > > citizens displaced from J&K due to terrorist violence and children of > > officers belonging to I.A.S., I.P.S. and other officers and staff belonging > > to military and paramilitary forces transferred to J&K to deal with > > terrorist activities in the State, in technical institutions in the filed > > [sic] of Engineering, Pharmacy, Architecture, etc., both at the degree and > > diploma levels. For this purpose, every diploma/degree level institution > > (whether Government aided or not) is permitted to create one extra seat for > > each course over and above the normal capacity of the institution and these > > seats cannot be allotted to students of any other category. However, no > > relaxation in eligibility conditions as prescribed by the concerned > > authority has been made. The domicile restriction has been removed for > > Kashmiri migrant students. Admission in general educational courses is also > > being provided subject to normal eligibility conditions being fulfilled." > > > > b) Extract on reservations for Kashmiri Pandits in Maharashtra from story > > in Frontline < > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122005301800.htm> > > > > The Distress of the Displaced > > > by Naunidhi Kaur > > > in New Delhi > > > Frontline, Volume 19 - Issue 23, November 09 - 22 2002 > > > > "Now, the Kashmiri Pandit organisations have unabashedly hitched on to the > > Shiv Sena bandwagon. They remain grateful to Sena chief Bal Thackeray for > > helping the community out. While in power, the Shiv Sena had instituted > > quotas for Kashmiri Pandits in colleges in Maharashtra. Pandit > organisations > > in Delhi are particularly sore about the Bharatiya Janata Party not doing > > anything to revive the registration process for migrant identity cards." > > > > 2. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Madhya Pradesh Educational > > Institutions > > > > Extract from Report on Madhya Pradesh on Internal Displacement.org > > > < > > > http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/88FD05B74D23F8ED802570B8005A700A?OpenDocument > > > > > "One seat has been reserved for Kashmiri migrants in each technical > > institution viz. Engineering, Polytechnics and [Industrial Training > > Institutes]. For general education there is no restriction in the State." > > > > 3. Reservation for Kashmiri Pandit Migrants in Karnataka Educational > > Institutions > > > > Extract from Report in the Hindu, December 20, 2004 > > > > > > > Quota for Kashmiri Pandits in professional colleges > > > The Hindu, Monday, December 20, 2004 > > > > "BANGALORE, DEC. 19. One seat each in all technical and professional > > colleges in the State will be reserved for Kashmiri migrant students, the > > Chief Minister, N. Dharam Singh, announced here on Sunday. > > > > In non-technical programmes such as B.A./B.Com./B.Sc./BCA/Computer Science, > > up to five per cent of seats over and above the approved intake in colleges > > will be given to wards of Kashmiri migrants, Mr. Singh said. > > > > He was speaking at the Global Meet on "Future of Kashmiri Pandits" > > organised by the All India Kashmiri Samaj, jointly with the Kashmiri Hindu > > Samithi, Karnataka. > > > > The seats in colleges offered to Kashmiris that remain vacant will be > > filled by other candidates, he added. Mr. Singh said that the Government > > would give Rs. 25 lakhs towards the construction of Kashmir Bhavan in the > > city." > > > > 4. Reflections on Reservations for Kashmiri Pandits by a Kashmiri Pandit > > > > Search Kashmir Blog > > > > > > > Quota and Kashmiri Pandits > > > > "Why can't we see things for what they are? We got quota in Maharashtra > > because it had a Hindu government and they tried to cash in on the Hindu > > vote by making it a 'Hindi cause'. Its all politics, nothing more, we were > > exploited, made a pawn in the great game and nothing more. > > > > They had no love lost for Kashmiri Pandits. Now we have Gujarat government > > giving quota. I hate Mr. Modi; he is the other side of the same communal > > coin. We were the poster boys of consequences of Islamic terror. In return, > > we got 'freebies' and we made the most of our situations. We don't have to > > be apologetic about it. A lot of good did come out of these freebies. > > However, at the same time we don't have to be thankful for it. They had > > their political goals and we had a life to look forward to. I did my B.E. > > due to quota in Maharashtra but I don't care much about this fact because I > > know that the system abused me and in return, I abused it back. Quota in > our > > case is nothing but abuse of system. Quality and ability are superseded by > > need and requirement. How long do we need it? Do we stop when we can afford > > 3-4 lakhs to get a seat? Do you think we would be able to stop? Won't we > > think of that 3-4 lakhs as a saving and instead use it for some other so > > called 'worthy cause' like Weddings etc. How do you think KPs in Jammu > could > > afford to build houses in Jammu? Should we be apologetic for that? > > > > Well, I am not. I did what I had to do and I did it my way. If anything, I > > am concerned about the price we are paying for having a quota system in the > > first place. The quality always pays the price for quantity. I know I would > > have performed better had I known that there is no quota to get me through > > the day. But I am hopelessly optimistic that each would find his own way. > > > > Quota isn't a simple issue (nothing related to Kashmir is simple), I still > > remember a Young K.P guy who came to teach us chemistry in school during > > 12th. He was a bright fellow but I could see that he was dejected with > life. > > He gave his 12th living in a camp. He himself told me once that he could > not > > be a B.E. because during his time they did not have a quota system and the > > no. of seats were too few. So he did B.sc and took up teaching. Therefore, > > quota or rather the absence of quota had an immitigable effect on his life. > > > > Bottom-line: Make the most of what life has to offer you. Quota does not > > necessary mean that you are bad but don't let it ruin your real education. > > We can spend all our life getting educated. Don't make yourself cannon > > fodder for greater political causes. > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sat Oct 25 16:11:21 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:11:21 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] vedas and hindu and castes. Message-ID: <425283.17455.qm@web94913.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Tapas      your post on this subject matter made very interesting read, but the starting point itself is not in line with right start. Vedas are for the mankind, originated in universe and hindu is one who learns and knows the way of life to live life in material, intellectual and spiritual spheres to fullest extent in dharmic way. Dharma again is not religion, but it is way of life to live life to the fullest extent in righteous way, which means by living fullest, by not hurting any living being in body, mind and soul. Religion word can not, does not capture the full essence of dharma. Again rituals do not confine the dharma. rituals performed without understanding the meaning of such rituals are of no use to the performer as well as to the society in which he lives.   Now, about castes, the vedas do not attribute to castes, but only vocations of different types, those who perform the kriyas of the super soul, perform worship of super soul are one varna, so also those who rule the subjects, those who perform cultivation of agricilture produce, and those who sell the services, products and also those who serve all these type of varnas. The birth does not give varna to any individual, his work in society gives him the varna, deeds define the varna. Thus a person who is supposed to perform rituals of worship indulges in sale and service of products can not be in the worshipper in broad sense, even when he worships everyday in his home. What he does for the community matters, not in his home.Geetha is the essence of veda in the sense, even if one does not take it as religious treaty, but as treaty on human psychology, mind and body in different tathvas, it gives the guidance to live life in righteous way. religion has nothing to do with it.   As everyone is aware, the continent also known as bharatha khanda, or this sub-continent is, of many kingdoms ruled by different rulers in the bygone era, of whom, the different clans are well known, that of surya vamshasthas, chandra vamshastas etc, and then many other of different origins. Of these, the earliest recorded is lord rama, suryavamshastha, later Lord krishna, chandra vamshastha, and as all of us aware what happens today, is news, what happened few years ago is history, many centuries ago is history in many narratives as legends. !   For administration of rule of the king, many kings made their own set of rules, many kings were of different kinds, some autocrats, some dictatorial, some very consierate for their subjects at all times. manu, the king made his rule of looking at the entire subjects as one composit cosmic body, in manusmirthi, as says that those who are learned are the "heads' or intellect of the society, those who defend the kingdom are the soldiers of the kingdom, or arms of the king, those who do business in kingdom,lend and borrow money for the kingdom are the bussiness of finance for the king, and all others who serve the king and kingdom as they do not possess any other skills other than that of service, are the subservients of these three classes of citizens in the cosmic body of composit society, none lesser or more important, all being part of the same one single cosmic body. But being intellectuals, who advice king in administration, the learned naturally got more status, being close to power, so also the executives who implemented the orders of the king, as they had powers vested in them to enforce the dictum of the king. last but not least money and fiscal masters who did attend to finance of the kingdom, by virtue of the money power were also powerful in the kingdom. But judicious rule of the kings never gave inequality in rule, that it is known as good rule of the kings.    After invasion of different kings in to this continent, the different kinds of rule took roots, those who ruled included the turkish, mughal and islamic kings, and subjects to gain closeness to the rule even changed faith to that of the rulers as it happens even today.? To justify such change of faith, the castes were invented and it made easier for british rule which came to indian subcontinent as business contigent with hardly 200 soldiers, to rule the nation by divide of caste. Ofcourse the greed of the rulers to own more lands for their kingdoms was catalyst to break down of the kigdoms and inheritence was decided by british businessmen.! During this period, the missionaries had a role to play, as they saw the intellect of learned to exploit their faith, created the upper and lower birth as criteria for the inferiority complex to propagate the faith of christianity as all are children of god, equal, god loves all his children etc, but after conversion to faith, one can see even today the converts retain their cate names, proudly say that they are upper cate converts ! And also marriages within the faith also is determined more by dowry power in all the faiths to obliterate the caste equations.  social status again is more determined by material wealth possessed by the person, how much he can donate for the god, is the status symbol even in these new found faiths. new bless new home by bishop, one has to shell out few lakhs in Kerala and if a mulla has to recite prayers for the new business or new home one follower of faith has to shell out the large amounts if he wants a renowned mulla. Whereas this is true to some extent in followers of hindu way of life, one can also see that the importance of clergy is minimal in hindu faith unlike these abrahamic faiths.   Evebn today, the conversion do take place more because of the bad governance of rule of laws as the good of democracy does not reach all, and the aspirations of these citizens when is not met, the cravings to get what is rightfully due to them, is leading them to convert to the faith of the rulers, in this case the christianity.Unfortunately, the evangelists that have come from far off nations have come with large funds to meet the small needs of the poor when the system has failed them, and the false promises of all in the ruling has made the job of conversion that much easier. With divided polity in diffrent segments of caste, language and regions the voting percentage being what it is today at dismal 45 percent, even small section of "commune" votes can make or mar the chances of rulers..?  And the system also wants to retain the identity of castes and faiths so that the divide is stark and useful to divide and rule. Even the left parties who say that religion is the opium of masses, do retain the religion as we see in their ruled states as they appease the refugees with id proofs and driving licence and voters ids , ration cards in the process of vote bank build up. Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Grab now http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 16:47:47 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 16:47:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya, just a moment, you say that Yasin Malik is a puppet, then all the actions of 1990 in kashmir were drafted in New Delhi or abroad, not in kashmir, not by kashmiris, right. if that is true, you have technically exonerated him from the crimes you believe he has committed. Dear Pawan i think the list deserves to know if Pawan Durani is a Shiv Sanik, because you boldly approve Demolition of Babri Masjid the point is important, here, because , now it is established that Shiv Saniks authored that INK ON YASIN MALIK, and you approved that act as well. On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, > bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases > against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at > the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is an > important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal > Politics. > > He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri Pandits, > but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a > non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement inside > and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him. Today > 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in Jammu > where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends. > > I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just another > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We do > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest with the > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of many. We > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led to > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. > > How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? > > Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a > leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery > mechanism. > > Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you > speak for him ? Can I smell something? > > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one knows why > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one wishes to > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about him. > > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the reacton > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. > > He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim Sebestian's > BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence speaks > a thousand words. > > You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my > business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at > Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type. > > 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of > religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and apologise for > the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more people; > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No country > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon Yasin > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to 1994 he > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into pieces. He > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area. Yasin > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to encourage > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something else > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your Narender > Modi is in picture ? > > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would continue > to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath killer > and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my > community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our rights > and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question. We > have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And, the > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All through our > conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support Yasin > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for some > movement. There is a lot behind the curtains. > > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a street > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me laugh > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. > > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you are; > because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone just > wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues. > > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright. > > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of Yasin > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain intact. > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk to him ? > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the protest > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just the > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate attention, > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An aazad > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. > > Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically, > geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second thought on > this. > > The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, > should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in > Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres. > > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such terrorists > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might happen > in future and in which direction talks will shape up. > > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his own > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm sure > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. Also, > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases pending > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but in > the Central Jail ... :-) > > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where from you > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external hands > guiding you into it. > > Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is > purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and meet > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists. > > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that they > started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how things shape > now... We both would be here somewhere. > > And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand > clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin > Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his > right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting or > campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! > > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail. > > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I don't want > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a bit > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions are at > doubt. > > Best, > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 17:04:03 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:04:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990810250434y4619cbdct3dedf69293fd6335@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder, 1. If you read the full text of Aditya's messages (since there were two) and look beyond the literal text, then Yasin comes across as an opportunist jumping to any camp / cause that gives him maximum boost / benefit. 2. In either case, don't see how you construe that as "technically exonerated him from the crimes...". This 'technically exonerated' bit sound like sitting in court and releasing a criminal since the witnesses are too scared to testify. In any case, if crimes were committed by Yasin, then he is responsible unless he takes the mental imbalance route, wherein he'll not be held liable. 3. Pushing Pawan or anyone else into a 'Shiv Sainik' group is as ridiculous as calling all Kashmiri's terrorists because some are. Just because I'm a Hindu does not mean i'll have to run behind you with a Trishul. You sound like the visitors of 20 years back from abroad who were as shocked by the cattle and elephants on the street as they were by finding people who could speak English and believed that shouting made them more understandable ! 4. Finally, sure throwing ink on someone could have caused an accident. However, as a ex-student from the days that ballpens were not around, remember the amount of fun we had in ink-fights. This incident was most likely not done in the same spirit, but am certainly glad that it stuck to the level of ink, and did not translate into acid or anything else that would have had permanent results. Childish, sure it was, but certainly not a tit-for-tat response to someone the perpetrators believed to be a killer. Rgds, Partha ...................................... On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Aditya, > > just a moment, > you say that Yasin Malik is a puppet, > > then all the actions of 1990 in kashmir were drafted in New Delhi or > abroad, not in kashmir, not by kashmiris, right. > > if that is true, you have technically exonerated him from the > crimes you believe he has committed. > > > > Dear Pawan > > i think the list deserves to know if Pawan Durani is a Shiv Sanik, > because you boldly approve Demolition of Babri Masjid > the point is important, here, because , now it is established that > Shiv Saniks authored that INK ON YASIN MALIK, and you approved that > act as well. > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, > > bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases > > against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at > > the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is an > > important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal > > Politics. > > > > He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri > Pandits, > > but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a > > non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement inside > > and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him. > Today > > 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in Jammu > > where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends. > > > > I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just > another > > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We do > > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest with > the > > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of many. > We > > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our > > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led to > > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. > > > > How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? > > > > Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a > > leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery > > mechanism. > > > > Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you > > speak for him ? Can I smell something? > > > > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one knows > why > > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one wishes > to > > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about him. > > > > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed > > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the > reacton > > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. > > > > He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim > Sebestian's > > BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence > speaks > > a thousand words. > > > > You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my > > business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at > > Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type. > > > > 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of > > religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and apologise > for > > the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more people; > > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No > country > > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon > Yasin > > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to 1994 > he > > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into pieces. > He > > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area. Yasin > > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to > encourage > > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something > else > > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your > Narender > > Modi is in picture ? > > > > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would > continue > > to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath > killer > > and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my > > community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our > rights > > and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question. We > > have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And, the > > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All through > our > > conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support Yasin > > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for > some > > movement. There is a lot behind the curtains. > > > > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a street > > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me > laugh > > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. > > > > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you > are; > > because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone > just > > wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues. > > > > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group > > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright. > > > > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of Yasin > > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain > intact. > > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk to > him ? > > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the protest > > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just the > > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate attention, > > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An aazad > > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. > > > > Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically, > > geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second thought > on > > this. > > > > The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, > > should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in > > Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres. > > > > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such > terrorists > > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might > happen > > in future and in which direction talks will shape up. > > > > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his > own > > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm > sure > > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. Also, > > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases pending > > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but in > > the Central Jail ... :-) > > > > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where from > you > > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external hands > > guiding you into it. > > > > Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is > > purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and meet > > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists. > > > > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that > they > > started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how things > shape > > now... We both would be here somewhere. > > > > And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand > > clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin > > Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his > > right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting > or > > campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! > > > > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail. > > > > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I don't > want > > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a bit > > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions are > at > > doubt. > > > > Best, > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 18:00:32 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:00:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <32144e990810250434y4619cbdct3dedf69293fd6335@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810250434y4619cbdct3dedf69293fd6335@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810250530o5eec7abfm4d0506a7164d69ad@mail.gmail.com> Dear Partha, about Yasin Malik and others such radical beings, i have already said, that i regret that there no thinking radical ( terrorists ) around, who could have forced some changes rather than giving excuses to army and police to do all what they are doing. yes, who is not taking advantage of the opportunities, particularly in politics, and kashmiri leaders are using all opportunities, like rest of other polticians are doing here. what is the difference ? my use of word EXONERATED was because Aditya said Yasin Malik is a PUPPET,....... that precisely means that there is a Master, here in Delhi. or abroad, i think you need to clarify that from Aditya, on what grounds he said that he is a puppet, he must be knowing better, since to wrote it with authority. i only found a clear meaning in word puppet. strange, that you see i am pushing Pawan Durani into Shiv Sanik Camp. Here, i would like to know what is your stand on Babri Demolition, i dont only condemn it but i see it the most unfortunate thing in India since Partition. please read again, Pawan ji says that he approves the Demolition of Babri Mosque, and Shiv Saniks/VHP publicly owned the responsibility, 'running behind me with a Trishul' what is this means ?. oops i really could not follow this phrase, i guess this was meant for someone else, about the ink on yasin malik, that is debate, and if you reduce it to childish or college level activity then you certanily undermine the forces who disrupt art activities in Baroda, and burn Hussain's paintings and and break art works at Sahmat etc. just recent examples. with love and regards On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Dear Inder, > > 1. If you read the full text of Aditya's messages (since there were two) > and > look beyond the literal text, then Yasin comes across as an opportunist > jumping to any camp / cause that gives him maximum boost / benefit. > > 2. In either case, don't see how you construe that as "technically > exonerated > him from the crimes...". This 'technically exonerated' bit sound like > sitting > in court and releasing a criminal since the witnesses are too scared to > testify. In any case, if crimes were committed by Yasin, then he is > responsible > unless he takes the mental imbalance route, wherein he'll not be held > liable. > > 3. Pushing Pawan or anyone else into a 'Shiv Sainik' group is as ridiculous > as calling all Kashmiri's terrorists because some are. Just because I'm > a Hindu > does not mean i'll have to run behind you with a Trishul. You sound > like the > visitors of 20 years back from abroad who were as shocked by the cattle > and > elephants on the street as they were by finding people who could speak > English > and believed that shouting made them more understandable ! > > 4. Finally, sure throwing ink on someone could have caused an accident. > However, > as a ex-student from the days that ballpens were not around, remember > the > amount of fun we had in ink-fights. This incident was most likely not > done in > the same spirit, but am certainly glad that it stuck to the level of > ink, and did > not translate into acid or anything else that would have had permanent > results. > Childish, sure it was, but certainly not a tit-for-tat response to > someone the > perpetrators believed to be a killer. > > Rgds, Partha > ...................................... > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, inder salim wrote: >> >> Dear Aditya, >> >> just a moment, >> you say that Yasin Malik is a puppet, >> >> then all the actions of 1990 in kashmir were drafted in New Delhi or >> abroad, not in kashmir, not by kashmiris, right. >> >> if that is true, you have technically exonerated him from the >> crimes you believe he has committed. >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> i think the list deserves to know if Pawan Durani is a Shiv Sanik, >> because you boldly approve Demolition of Babri Masjid >> the point is important, here, because , now it is established that >> Shiv Saniks authored that INK ON YASIN MALIK, and you approved that >> act as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, >> > bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases >> > against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet >> > at >> > the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is an >> > important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal >> > Politics. >> > >> > He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri >> > Pandits, >> > but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a >> > non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement >> > inside >> > and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him. >> > Today >> > 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in Jammu >> > where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends. >> > >> > I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just >> > another >> > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We do >> > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest with >> > the >> > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of many. >> > We >> > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our >> > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led to >> > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. >> > >> > How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? >> > >> > Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a >> > leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice >> > delivery >> > mechanism. >> > >> > Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you >> > speak for him ? Can I smell something? >> > >> > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one knows >> > why >> > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one wishes >> > to >> > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about him. >> > >> > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed >> > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the >> > reacton >> > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. >> > >> > He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim >> > Sebestian's >> > BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence >> > speaks >> > a thousand words. >> > >> > You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my >> > business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at >> > Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type. >> > >> > 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of >> > religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and apologise >> > for >> > the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more people; >> > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No >> > country >> > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon >> > Yasin >> > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to >> > 1994 he >> > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into pieces. >> > He >> > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area. Yasin >> > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to >> > encourage >> > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something >> > else >> > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your >> > Narender >> > Modi is in picture ? >> > >> > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would >> > continue >> > to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath >> > killer >> > and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, >> > my >> > community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our >> > rights >> > and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question. We >> > have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And, the >> > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All through >> > our >> > conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support >> > Yasin >> > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for >> > some >> > movement. There is a lot behind the curtains. >> > >> > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a street >> > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me >> > laugh >> > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. >> > >> > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you >> > are; >> > because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone >> > just >> > wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues. >> > >> > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group >> > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright. >> > >> > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of Yasin >> > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain >> > intact. >> > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk to >> > him ? >> > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the protest >> > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just >> > the >> > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate attention, >> > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An aazad >> > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. >> > >> > Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically, >> > geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second thought >> > on >> > this. >> > >> > The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, >> > should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in >> > Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres. >> > >> > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such >> > terrorists >> > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might >> > happen >> > in future and in which direction talks will shape up. >> > >> > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his >> > own >> > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm >> > sure >> > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. Also, >> > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases pending >> > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but >> > in >> > the Central Jail ... :-) >> > >> > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where from >> > you >> > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external hands >> > guiding you into it. >> > >> > Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is >> > purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and >> > meet >> > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists. >> > >> > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that >> > they >> > started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how things >> > shape >> > now... We both would be here somewhere. >> > >> > And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand >> > clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin >> > Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to >> > his >> > right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting >> > or >> > campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! >> > >> > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail. >> > >> > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I don't >> > want >> > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a bit >> > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions are >> > at >> > doubt. >> > >> > Best, >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From parthaekka at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 19:14:30 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:14:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810250530o5eec7abfm4d0506a7164d69ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810250434y4619cbdct3dedf69293fd6335@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250530o5eec7abfm4d0506a7164d69ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990810250644h2cd6c49bq870f73f418cee5a9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder, Terror is a strange thing, silent people like Gandhi with his non-violence movement scared the British Empire enough that India won independance. If you will sit back and say that since everyone is taking advantage and everyone is corrupt, so lets agree that they're right - then I will disagree with you. To answer your point 'Whats the difference' - very simple - it's wrong and we should not condone it. As for being exonerated - we've seen cases where people killed under the influence of a Tantrik. That does not exonerate them. If a drunk man drives a car and kills someone, he's responsible, even if he had a drink. Puppet or not, Yasin is supposedly a thinking person and therefore responsible for the actions he has taken. As for my stand on the Babri Masjid - well, I think it's a massive waste of time to go hunting temples or mosques or churches that pre-date the other & restore them. There must have been some sort of a dwelling where my house today, and if someone who's ancestor lived there comes today and asks me to move, i won't. If you do follwo this list, had mentioned it some time back. In any case, what's that got to do with what we're talking about. Yes, I do find it ridiculous that you call someone a 'Shiv Sainik' because he agrees with the Babri demolition. There were thousand of Sadhu's around as well. Are you now going to insist that all Sadhu's are Hindu militants? Or that all Hindu's are Sainiks? Look at what you write and how ridiculous it sounds... Just for the heck of it, Inder, i am from the art school of Baroda. There are protests and all sorts of people everywhere. Some who agree what art is and some who disagree. There is much art i dislike and ignore. Some protest more noisily. Then again, i think that we can not stop protests as it is a fundamental right and we have all seen cases - many recently - where the protest has created affirmative action. As for the 'running behind you with a Trishul' - read the para, and the meaning should be clear. Something I wrote just a bit back, insisting that people fit into a group just so that you are mentally comfortable bracketing them in one extreme is ridiculous - and I'm sure as painful to them as it was to you when you were being bracketed. Rgds, Partha ................................ On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 6:00 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Partha, > > about Yasin Malik and others such radical beings, i have already said, > that i regret that there no thinking radical ( terrorists ) around, > who could have forced some changes rather than giving excuses to army > and police to do all what they are doing. > > yes, who is not taking advantage of the opportunities, particularly in > politics, and kashmiri leaders are using all opportunities, like rest > of other polticians are doing here. what is the difference ? > > my use of word EXONERATED was because Aditya said Yasin Malik is a > PUPPET,....... that precisely means that there is a Master, here in > Delhi. or abroad, i think you need to clarify that from Aditya, on > what grounds he said that he is a puppet, he must be knowing better, > since to wrote it with authority. i only found a clear meaning in word > puppet. > > strange, that you see i am pushing Pawan Durani into Shiv Sanik Camp. > Here, i would like to know what is your stand on Babri Demolition, i > dont only condemn it but i see it the most unfortunate thing in India > since Partition. please read again, Pawan ji says that he approves the > Demolition of Babri Mosque, and Shiv Saniks/VHP publicly owned the > responsibility, > > 'running behind me with a Trishul' what is this means ?. oops > i really could not follow this phrase, i guess this was meant for > someone else, > > about the ink on yasin malik, that is debate, and if you reduce it to > childish or college level activity then you certanily undermine the > forces who disrupt art activities in Baroda, and burn Hussain's > paintings and and break art works at Sahmat etc. just recent > examples. > > with love and regards > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > Dear Inder, > > > > 1. If you read the full text of Aditya's messages (since there were two) > > and > > look beyond the literal text, then Yasin comes across as an > opportunist > > jumping to any camp / cause that gives him maximum boost / benefit. > > > > 2. In either case, don't see how you construe that as "technically > > exonerated > > him from the crimes...". This 'technically exonerated' bit sound > like > > sitting > > in court and releasing a criminal since the witnesses are too scared > to > > testify. In any case, if crimes were committed by Yasin, then he is > > responsible > > unless he takes the mental imbalance route, wherein he'll not be > held > > liable. > > > > 3. Pushing Pawan or anyone else into a 'Shiv Sainik' group is as > ridiculous > > as calling all Kashmiri's terrorists because some are. Just because > I'm > > a Hindu > > does not mean i'll have to run behind you with a Trishul. You sound > > like the > > visitors of 20 years back from abroad who were as shocked by the > cattle > > and > > elephants on the street as they were by finding people who could > speak > > English > > and believed that shouting made them more understandable ! > > > > 4. Finally, sure throwing ink on someone could have caused an accident. > > However, > > as a ex-student from the days that ballpens were not around, > remember > > the > > amount of fun we had in ink-fights. This incident was most likely > not > > done in > > the same spirit, but am certainly glad that it stuck to the level > of > > ink, and did > > not translate into acid or anything else that would have had > permanent > > results. > > Childish, sure it was, but certainly not a tit-for-tat response to > > someone the > > perpetrators believed to be a killer. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ...................................... > > > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, inder salim > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Aditya, > >> > >> just a moment, > >> you say that Yasin Malik is a puppet, > >> > >> then all the actions of 1990 in kashmir were drafted in New Delhi or > >> abroad, not in kashmir, not by kashmiris, right. > >> > >> if that is true, you have technically exonerated him from the > >> crimes you believe he has committed. > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear Pawan > >> > >> i think the list deserves to know if Pawan Durani is a Shiv Sanik, > >> because you boldly approve Demolition of Babri Masjid > >> the point is important, here, because , now it is established that > >> Shiv Saniks authored that INK ON YASIN MALIK, and you approved that > >> act as well. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >> wrote: > >> > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, > >> > bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases > >> > against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet > >> > at > >> > the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is an > >> > important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal > >> > Politics. > >> > > >> > He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri > >> > Pandits, > >> > but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a > >> > non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement > >> > inside > >> > and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him. > >> > Today > >> > 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in > Jammu > >> > where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends. > >> > > >> > I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just > >> > another > >> > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We do > >> > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest > with > >> > the > >> > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of > many. > >> > We > >> > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our > >> > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led to > >> > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. > >> > > >> > How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? > >> > > >> > Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a > >> > leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice > >> > delivery > >> > mechanism. > >> > > >> > Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes > you > >> > speak for him ? Can I smell something? > >> > > >> > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one > knows > >> > why > >> > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one > wishes > >> > to > >> > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about him. > >> > > >> > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed > >> > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the > >> > reacton > >> > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. > >> > > >> > He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim > >> > Sebestian's > >> > BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence > >> > speaks > >> > a thousand words. > >> > > >> > You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my > >> > business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest > at > >> > Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type. > >> > > >> > 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of > >> > religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and > apologise > >> > for > >> > the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more > people; > >> > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No > >> > country > >> > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon > >> > Yasin > >> > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to > >> > 1994 he > >> > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into > pieces. > >> > He > >> > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area. > Yasin > >> > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to > >> > encourage > >> > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something > >> > else > >> > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your > >> > Narender > >> > Modi is in picture ? > >> > > >> > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would > >> > continue > >> > to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath > >> > killer > >> > and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, > >> > my > >> > community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our > >> > rights > >> > and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question. > We > >> > have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And, > the > >> > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All > through > >> > our > >> > conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support > >> > Yasin > >> > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for > >> > some > >> > movement. There is a lot behind the curtains. > >> > > >> > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a > street > >> > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me > >> > laugh > >> > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. > >> > > >> > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you > >> > are; > >> > because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone > >> > just > >> > wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues. > >> > > >> > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group > >> > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright. > >> > > >> > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of > Yasin > >> > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain > >> > intact. > >> > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk to > >> > him ? > >> > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the protest > >> > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just > >> > the > >> > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate > attention, > >> > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An aazad > >> > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. > >> > > >> > Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically, > >> > geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second > thought > >> > on > >> > this. > >> > > >> > The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish > to, > >> > should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in > >> > Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres. > >> > > >> > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such > >> > terrorists > >> > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might > >> > happen > >> > in future and in which direction talks will shape up. > >> > > >> > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by > his > >> > own > >> > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. > I'm > >> > sure > >> > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. > Also, > >> > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases > pending > >> > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but > >> > in > >> > the Central Jail ... :-) > >> > > >> > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where > from > >> > you > >> > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external hands > >> > guiding you into it. > >> > > >> > Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is > >> > purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and > >> > meet > >> > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists. > >> > > >> > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that > >> > they > >> > started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how things > >> > shape > >> > now... We both would be here somewhere. > >> > > >> > And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand > >> > clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody > Yasin > >> > Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to > >> > his > >> > right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' > protesting > >> > or > >> > campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! > >> > > >> > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail. > >> > > >> > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I don't > >> > want > >> > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a bit > >> > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions > are > >> > at > >> > doubt. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 20:00:10 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:00:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aditya, I've said what I had to in my last mail about Yasin, other Kashmiri separatists and the peace process. If I respond point by point to your last email I will risk subjecting the Reader's List to another long harangue from you and I don't think that's fair. As my last words before I close my end of this exchange on Yasin Malik and terrorism, I wonder whether you've ever come across the story of Angulimala? Please read it and let us have a private conversation after that. Best wishes, Sonia Jabbar. > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:56:22 +0530 > To: sarai list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, bureaucrats > and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases against him; which > I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at the hands of various > agencies inside and outside the country. He is an important tool to turn, > control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal Politics. He has been a killer, > kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri Pandits, but even Kashmiri Muslims > and even IAF personnel who were killed in a non-combat situation. What could > be worse? He enjoys free movement inside and outside the country inspite of > several cases pending against him. Today 25th October, is one such hearing of > his case in the TADA Court in Jammu where the case has been on for last 18 > years and he rarely attends. I fail to understand where did I corner you or > scream at you. Just another figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly > WAKE UP !!!!! We do protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly > we protest with the HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned > Godfather of many. We can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed > and raped our brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which > led to exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. How > can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? Just memorising speaches > and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a leader of him. He has been a > Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery mechanism. Its strange why you > are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you speak for him ? Can I > smell something? 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 > no one knows why nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No > one wishes to dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit > about him. In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta > expressed reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the > reacton from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. He is widely known as a > person who killed innocents. Watch Tim Sebestian's BBC Hard Talk with much > famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence speaks a thousand words. You > can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my business. > But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at Jantar Mantar > not me. So, Kindly think and then type. 9. If someone kills your parents and > brother tomorrow in the name of religion and after a few days says I didn't > mean to do it and apologise for the same and you come to know he has done the > same with 100 more people; will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in > your family? No country is different. I still believe in the law of the land. > Hopefully, soon Yasin Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. > From 1989 to 1994 he was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla > Bhat into pieces. He killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy > Lalchowk area. Yasin Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, > you want to encourage him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, > does something else push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same > when your Narender Modi is in picture ? 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In > Kashmir' world-wide initiative would continue to campaign and spread awareness > against this maniac and psychopath killer and terrorist Yasin malik who > unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my community met exodus; just for > your information. If we seek for our rights and justice now; is it a crime ? > We have a right to ask and question. We have a right to protest. We have a > right to take legal course. And, the public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' > or their supporters. All through our conversation, it is clear something > really motivates you to support Yasin Malik. And, I can't take it just as a > geuine concern or a support for some movement. There is a lot behind the > curtains. What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a > street hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me > laugh Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. I dare you to bring Yasin Malik > yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you are; because no-one supports the so > called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone just wants peace and no more of Yasin > Malik. Money flow continues. I don't know how you know so much about Yasin > Malik's internal group details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't > seem as bright. 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by > likes of Yasin Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will > remain intact. Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to > talk to him ? Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the > protest rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just > the way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate > attention, there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An > aazad Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. Kashmir has > always been an integral part of India historically, geographically, > culturally, and politically. There is no second thought on this. The likes of > terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, should be > transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in Kashmir. Enough > of bloodshed and massacres. A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem > coming till such terrorists roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to > predict what might happen in future and in which direction talks will shape > up. It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his > own people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm > sure you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. > Also, Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases > pending against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but > in the Central Jail ... :-) And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I > don't knpow where from you jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some > big external hands guiding you into it. Well, I don't have problems if you > meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is purely your wish. You have such bent of > mind. You can as well go and meet Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in > encouraging terrorists. Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in > Kashmir. Terrorism that they started doesn't force us to include them in > talks. Lets see how things shape now... We both would be here somewhere. And > lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand clearly. > I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin Malik is a > terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his right location. > And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting or campaigning against > this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! Now, go and prepare for Yasin's > wedding in Jail. P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here > itself, I don't want to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try > and be a bit tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your > intentions are > at doubt. Best, _________________________________________ reader-list: an > open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 20:28:50 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:28:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810250758j6af0d5fbnc2b907297dad3d5b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder Ji, If your separatists in Kashmir doesnt make you a terrorist. how come my likeness about demolition of a structure to re-build a temple of Lord Rama make me a Shiv Sainik. Not that i hate Shiv Sena or I have any relationship with them. Since u have bracketted me with them , i would continue to love them. For that should be a problem to you and rest of Leftists. And unfortunately , pls explain why 80's violence in Assam or KP's migration isnt a national shame. Pawan On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Aditya, > > just a moment, > you say that Yasin Malik is a puppet, > > then all the actions of 1990 in kashmir were drafted in New Delhi or > abroad, not in kashmir, not by kashmiris, right. > > if that is true, you have technically exonerated him from the > crimes you believe he has committed. > > > > Dear Pawan > > i think the list deserves to know if Pawan Durani is a Shiv Sanik, > because you boldly approve Demolition of Babri Masjid > the point is important, here, because , now it is established that > Shiv Saniks authored that INK ON YASIN MALIK, and you approved that > act as well. > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, > > bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases > > against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at > > the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is an > > important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal > > Politics. > > > > He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri > Pandits, > > but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a > > non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement inside > > and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him. > Today > > 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in Jammu > > where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends. > > > > I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just > another > > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We do > > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest with > the > > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of many. > We > > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our > > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led to > > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. > > > > How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? > > > > Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a > > leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery > > mechanism. > > > > Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you > > speak for him ? Can I smell something? > > > > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one knows > why > > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one wishes > to > > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about him. > > > > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed > > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the > reacton > > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. > > > > He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim > Sebestian's > > BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence > speaks > > a thousand words. > > > > You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my > > business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at > > Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type. > > > > 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of > > religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and apologise > for > > the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more people; > > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No > country > > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon > Yasin > > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to 1994 > he > > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into pieces. > He > > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area. Yasin > > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to > encourage > > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something > else > > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your > Narender > > Modi is in picture ? > > > > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would > continue > > to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath > killer > > and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my > > community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our > rights > > and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question. We > > have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And, the > > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All through > our > > conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support Yasin > > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for > some > > movement. There is a lot behind the curtains. > > > > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a street > > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me > laugh > > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. > > > > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you > are; > > because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone > just > > wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues. > > > > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group > > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright. > > > > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of Yasin > > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain > intact. > > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk to > him ? > > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the protest > > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just the > > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate attention, > > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An aazad > > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. > > > > Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically, > > geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second thought > on > > this. > > > > The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, > > should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in > > Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres. > > > > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such > terrorists > > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might > happen > > in future and in which direction talks will shape up. > > > > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his > own > > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm > sure > > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. Also, > > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases pending > > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but in > > the Central Jail ... :-) > > > > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where from > you > > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external hands > > guiding you into it. > > > > Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is > > purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and meet > > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists. > > > > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that > they > > started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how things > shape > > now... We both would be here somewhere. > > > > And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand > > clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin > > Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his > > right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting > or > > campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! > > > > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail. > > > > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I don't > want > > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a bit > > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions are > at > > doubt. > > > > Best, > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 20:30:39 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:30:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810250800h5fd39943pa3e821ae6227fdd6@mail.gmail.com> Phew......Yasin and Angulimala...... Atleast first half is cleared that he is a murderer and a robber. Pls explain in detail,Sonia Pawan On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 8:00 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > Dear Aditya, > > I've said what I had to in my last mail about Yasin, other Kashmiri > separatists and the peace process. If I respond point by point to your > last > email I will risk subjecting the Reader's List to another long harangue > from > you and I don't think that's fair. > > As my last words before I close my end of this exchange on Yasin Malik and > terrorism, I wonder whether you've ever come across the story of > Angulimala? > Please read it and let us have a private conversation after that. > > Best wishes, > Sonia Jabbar. > > > > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:56:22 +0530 > > To: sarai list > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > > > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, > bureaucrats > > and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases > against him; which > > I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at > the hands of various > > agencies inside and outside the country. He is an > important tool to turn, > > control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal > Politics. > > He has been a killer, > > kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri Pandits, > but even Kashmiri Muslims > > and even IAF personnel who were killed in a > non-combat situation. What could > > be worse? He enjoys free movement inside > and outside the country inspite of > > several cases pending against him. Today > 25th October, is one such hearing of > > his case in the TADA Court in Jammu > where the case has been on for last 18 > > years and he rarely attends. > > I fail to understand where did I corner you or > > scream at you. Just another > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly > > WAKE UP !!!!! We do > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly > > we protest with the > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned > > Godfather of many. We > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed > > and raped our > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which > > led to > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. > > How > > can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? > > Just memorising speaches > > and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a > leader of him. He has been a > > Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery > mechanism. > > Its strange why you > > are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you > speak for him ? Can I > > smell something? > > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 > > no one knows why > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No > > one wishes to > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit > > about him. > > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta > > expressed > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the > > reacton > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. > > He is widely known as a > > person who killed innocents. Watch Tim Sebestian's > BBC Hard Talk with much > > famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence speaks > a thousand words. > > You > > can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my > business. > > But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at > Jantar Mantar > > not me. So, Kindly think and then type. > > 9. If someone kills your parents and > > brother tomorrow in the name of > religion and after a few days says I didn't > > mean to do it and apologise for > the same and you come to know he has done the > > same with 100 more people; > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in > > your family? No country > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. > > Hopefully, soon Yasin > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. > > From 1989 to 1994 he > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla > > Bhat into pieces. He > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy > > Lalchowk area. Yasin > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, > > you want to encourage > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, > > does something else > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same > > when your Narender > Modi is in picture ? > > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In > > Kashmir' world-wide initiative would continue > to campaign and spread awareness > > against this maniac and psychopath killer > and terrorist Yasin malik who > > unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my > community met exodus; just for > > your information. If we seek for our rights > and justice now; is it a crime ? > > We have a right to ask and question. We > have a right to protest. We have a > > right to take legal course. And, the > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' > > or their supporters. All through our > conversation, it is clear something > > really motivates you to support Yasin > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a > > geuine concern or a support for some > movement. There is a lot behind the > > curtains. > > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a > > street > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me > > laugh > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. > > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik > > yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you are; > because no-one supports the so > > called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone just > wants peace and no more of Yasin > > Malik. Money flow continues. > > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin > > Malik's internal group > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't > > seem as bright. > > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by > > likes of Yasin > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will > > remain intact. > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to > > talk to him ? > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the > > protest > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just > > the > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate > > attention, > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An > > aazad > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. > > Kashmir has > > always been an integral part of India historically, > geographically, > > culturally, and politically. There is no second thought on > this. > > The likes of > > terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, > should be > > transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in > Kashmir. Enough > > of bloodshed and massacres. > > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem > > coming till such terrorists > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to > > predict what might happen > in future and in which direction talks will shape > > up. > > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his > > own > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm > > sure > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. > > Also, > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases > > pending > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but > > in > the Central Jail ... :-) > > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I > > don't knpow where from you > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some > > big external hands > guiding you into it. > > Well, I don't have problems if you > > meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is > purely your wish. You have such bent of > > mind. You can as well go and meet > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in > > encouraging terrorists. > > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in > > Kashmir. Terrorism that they > started doesn't force us to include them in > > talks. Lets see how things shape > now... We both would be here somewhere. > > And > > lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand > clearly. > > I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin > Malik is a > > terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his > right location. > > And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting or > campaigning against > > this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! > > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's > > wedding in Jail. > > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here > > itself, I don't want > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try > > and be a bit > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your > > intentions are > > at > doubt. > > Best, > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an > > open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 22:28:05 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:28:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Malegaon blast: now 2 ex-Armymen under scanner Message-ID: Malegaon blast: Two ex-Armymen under scanner 25 Oct 2008, 2150 hrs IST, PTI MUMBAI: Two persons, suspected to be ex-army personnel, were on Saturday questioned in Pune in connection with the September 29 Malegaon blast, police sources said here. The two persons, whose identities were not revealed, were taken in for questioning, they said. Three persons have been arrested, including a sadhvi, for their alleged involvement in the Malegaon blast which claimed the lives of six persons. Senior ATS officials in Mumbai and Pune refused to comment on the issue. Senior ATS officials in Mumbai remained for most part of the day at the Kalachowkie unit of the ATS in central Mumbai where the three arrested persons were being kept. A team from the ATS was also present in Indore for further investigations. Shivnarayan Gopalsingh Kalsangra, 36, and Shyam Sabarlal Sahu, 42, a mobile telephone shop owner, were arrested from Indore and had also founded the Rashtriya Jagran Manch in the city. ATS officials had confirmed that RDX had been used in the blast but had refused to elaborate where the arrested trio had obtained the explosive from. ==== It is wrong to use term 'Hindu terrorists': BJP Press Trust of India Friday, October 24, 2008, (New Delhi) BJP on Friday said it was wrong to use the term "Hindu terrorists" for the alleged extremists arrested on charges of the Malegaon blasts and charged "some section" of trying to malign the majority community. "Some section are trying to malign the majority community. BJP is objecting to the term Hindu terrorists, which is wrong. Nobody is saying that the law must not take its course. No one can say that. A terrorist is a terrorist irrespective of his caste or religion," party leader Yashwant Sinha said in a press conference in New Delhi on Friday. "Investigations should happen but the whole majority community is being assailed. We object to the ultra secularists. We object to what Brinda Karat(CPI-M) said in the House yesterday that it was Hindu terrorism," he added. "Vaiko has been arrested because he made a speech in support of LTTE, why haven't those people been arrested who are speaking in favour of the SIMI," Sinha questioned. "This is the level that vote bank politics has reached, by condemning the majority, one seeks to gain the minority vote," he said. "It is for government of India to consider a decision in the matter of banning an organisation. If we support the decision we will stand with it," said Sinha when asked if his party would support banning Hindu outfits which have alleged linkages with the arrested men and women. One is trying to give a bad name to the majority community just because one or one and a half act. No one has the right to use the word Hindu terrorists, he added. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 22:37:24 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:37:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70810250800h5fd39943pa3e821ae6227fdd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70810250800h5fd39943pa3e821ae6227fdd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810251007j648a92a2y937aa5ccf4a8a76b@mail.gmail.com> Extremely Sorry ! I missed this out earlier. With Yasin Malik, the killer terrosrist being portrayed as Angulimala , I wonder who is is the Gautama , Buddha or Siddharta in this case ? No matter who is what ! This killer will face out .... ;Has to been served justice. This Yasin mailk , the person who is responsible for displacement of 7 lac Kashmiri Pandits and responsible for deaths of 35000 [ thirty five thousand ] Kashmiri Hindus , has ot face the gallows , served by Indian Justice....sooner or later. Pawan On 10/25/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Phew......Yasin and Angulimala...... > > Atleast first half is cleared that he is a murderer and a robber. > > Pls explain in detail,Sonia > > Pawan > > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 8:00 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > >> Dear Aditya, >> >> I've said what I had to in my last mail about Yasin, other Kashmiri >> separatists and the peace process. If I respond point by point to your >> last >> email I will risk subjecting the Reader's List to another long harangue >> from >> you and I don't think that's fair. >> >> As my last words before I close my end of this exchange on Yasin Malik and >> terrorism, I wonder whether you've ever come across the story of >> Angulimala? >> Please read it and let us have a private conversation after that. >> >> Best wishes, >> Sonia Jabbar. >> >> >> > From: Aditya Raj Kaul >> > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:56:22 +0530 >> > To: sarai list >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik >> > >> > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, >> bureaucrats >> > and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases >> against him; which >> > I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at >> the hands of various >> > agencies inside and outside the country. He is an >> important tool to turn, >> > control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal >> Politics. >> >> He has been a killer, >> > kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri Pandits, >> but even Kashmiri Muslims >> > and even IAF personnel who were killed in a >> non-combat situation. What could >> > be worse? He enjoys free movement inside >> and outside the country inspite of >> > several cases pending against him. Today >> 25th October, is one such hearing of >> > his case in the TADA Court in Jammu >> where the case has been on for last 18 >> > years and he rarely attends. >> >> I fail to understand where did I corner you or >> > scream at you. Just another >> figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly >> > WAKE UP !!!!! We do >> protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly >> > we protest with the >> HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned >> > Godfather of many. We >> can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed >> > and raped our >> brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which >> > led to >> exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. >> >> How >> > can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? >> >> Just memorising speaches >> > and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a >> leader of him. He has been a >> > Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery >> mechanism. >> >> Its strange why you >> > are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you >> speak for him ? Can I >> > smell something? >> >> 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 >> > no one knows why >> nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No >> > one wishes to >> dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit >> > about him. >> >> In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta >> > expressed >> reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the >> > reacton >> from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. >> >> He is widely known as a >> > person who killed innocents. Watch Tim Sebestian's >> BBC Hard Talk with much >> > famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence speaks >> a thousand words. >> >> You >> > can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my >> business. >> > But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at >> Jantar Mantar >> > not me. So, Kindly think and then type. >> >> 9. If someone kills your parents and >> > brother tomorrow in the name of >> religion and after a few days says I didn't >> > mean to do it and apologise for >> the same and you come to know he has done the >> > same with 100 more people; >> will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in >> > your family? No country >> is different. I still believe in the law of the land. >> > Hopefully, soon Yasin >> Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. >> > From 1989 to 1994 he >> was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla >> > Bhat into pieces. He >> killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy >> > Lalchowk area. Yasin >> Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, >> > you want to encourage >> him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, >> > does something else >> push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same >> > when your Narender >> Modi is in picture ? >> >> 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In >> > Kashmir' world-wide initiative would continue >> to campaign and spread awareness >> > against this maniac and psychopath killer >> and terrorist Yasin malik who >> > unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my >> community met exodus; just for >> > your information. If we seek for our rights >> and justice now; is it a crime ? >> > We have a right to ask and question. We >> have a right to protest. We have a >> > right to take legal course. And, the >> public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' >> > or their supporters. All through our >> conversation, it is clear something >> > really motivates you to support Yasin >> Malik. And, I can't take it just as a >> > geuine concern or a support for some >> movement. There is a lot behind the >> > curtains. >> >> What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a >> > street >> hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me >> > laugh >> Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. >> >> I dare you to bring Yasin Malik >> > yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you are; >> because no-one supports the so >> > called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone just >> wants peace and no more of Yasin >> > Malik. Money flow continues. >> >> I don't know how you know so much about Yasin >> > Malik's internal group >> details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't >> > seem as bright. >> >> 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by >> > likes of Yasin >> Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will >> > remain intact. >> Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to >> > talk to him ? >> Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the >> > protest >> rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just >> > the >> way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate >> > attention, >> there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An >> > aazad >> Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. >> >> Kashmir has >> > always been an integral part of India historically, >> geographically, >> > culturally, and politically. There is no second thought on >> this. >> >> The likes of >> > terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, >> should be >> > transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in >> Kashmir. Enough >> > of bloodshed and massacres. >> >> A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem >> > coming till such terrorists >> roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to >> > predict what might happen >> in future and in which direction talks will shape >> > up. >> >> It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his >> > own >> people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm >> > sure >> you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. >> > Also, >> Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases >> > pending >> against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but >> > in >> the Central Jail ... :-) >> >> And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I >> > don't knpow where from you >> jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some >> > big external hands >> guiding you into it. >> >> Well, I don't have problems if you >> > meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is >> purely your wish. You have such bent of >> > mind. You can as well go and meet >> Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in >> > encouraging terrorists. >> >> Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in >> > Kashmir. Terrorism that they >> started doesn't force us to include them in >> > talks. Lets see how things shape >> now... We both would be here somewhere. >> >> And >> > lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand >> clearly. >> > I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin >> Malik is a >> > terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his >> right location. >> > And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting or >> campaigning against >> > this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! >> >> Now, go and prepare for Yasin's >> > wedding in Jail. >> >> P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here >> > itself, I don't want >> to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try >> > and be a bit >> tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your >> > intentions are >> > at >> doubt. >> >> Best, >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an >> > open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >> > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> > the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 23:15:23 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:45:23 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <32144e990810250644h2cd6c49bq870f73f418cee5a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810250434y4619cbdct3dedf69293fd6335@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250530o5eec7abfm4d0506a7164d69ad@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810250644h2cd6c49bq870f73f418cee5a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, It is disgusting to see some ‘wise’ & ‘powerful’ people on the list deriving sadistic pleasure over the plight of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits who were subjected to ethnic cleansing in Kashmir at the hands of Kashmiri pan Islamists 19 years ago. Even then the civil society in general & theses ‘wise’ & ‘powerful’ men & women in particular remained silent when the hapless minority community was selectively targeted by the Kalashnikov wielding zealots killing men ,women ,children & old & young openly in their homes & in the streets of Kashmir forcing them to flee leaving their homes & hearths behind. Their only fault being that they symbolised Indian presence in the valley & that they were Hindus. It is a blot on the secular credentials of the society that Kashmiri Hindu Pandits continue to be refugees in their own country. It is a remote possibility to expect a change of heart of those who openly espouse the cause of Kashmiri Muslim separatists seeking ‘azadi- bara - e- Islam’ - make propaganda films on behalf & for them; write columns in favour of them; write books to glorify them; hold road shows to garner support & sympathy for them; even ‘drive’ them around & now tend to capture virtual space also only to malign the victims of the pan Islamism inspired terrorism. Wise & powerful men & women after all ..…………………..…………….. But it is pertinent to remind them that they are only enhancing the misery of common Kashmiri Muslim masses by extending solidarity to those who self admittedly ferried weapons from across the borders only to found ‘gun culture’ in the valley & kill innocents .Their glorification in Delhi only encourages many more credulous Kashmiri youth to join the fray in Srinagar. Irony is not lost when you see these terror commanders turned politicians ( make over curtsey the ‘wise’ & ‘powerful’ men & women) highlighting the issue of the dead & missing youth who were instigated , indoctrinated , trained & armed at their behest only to kill the innocents & those opposed to their doctrine of Islamic separatism. These ‘wise’ & ‘powerful’ people must also shear the responsibility of the plight of the wailing mothers, widows & orphans of hundreds of Kashmiri Muslims- who lost their lives in the mindless violence initiated by a few to achieve their sinister agenda. After all the most widespread excuse being forwarded in favour of the on going violence by the protagonists as well these ‘wise’ & ‘powerful’ people is said to be the alleged electoral malpractice. Kashmiri blood & Kashmiriyat was sought to be so cheap…….????......... If President Zardari’s historical statement that the so called Kashmir freedom fighters were terrorists is any indication, it is only a matter of time when the stifled voices of Kashmir- the masses will appear in the streets across the valley to chase these self styled representatives who have held Kashmir ransom for the pats two decades, to where they deserve to be …………, ‘wise’ & ‘powerful’ men & women not withstanding. Regards all LA > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:14:30 +0530> From: parthaekka at gmail.com> To: indersalim at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik> > Dear Inder,> > Terror is a strange thing, silent people like Gandhi with his non-violence> movement scared the British Empire enough that India won independance.> > If you will sit back and say that since everyone is taking advantage and> everyone is corrupt, so lets agree that they're right - then I will disagree> with you. To answer your point 'Whats the difference' - very simple - it's> wrong and we should not condone it.> > As for being exonerated - we've seen cases where people killed under the> influence of a Tantrik. That does not exonerate them. If a drunk man drives> a car and kills someone, he's responsible, even if he had a drink. Puppet or> not, Yasin is supposedly a thinking person and therefore responsible for the> actions he has taken.> > As for my stand on the Babri Masjid - well, I think it's a massive waste of> time to go hunting temples or mosques or churches that pre-date the other &> restore them. There must have been some sort of a dwelling where my house> today, and if someone who's ancestor lived there comes today and asks me to> move, i won't. If you do follwo this list, had mentioned it some time back.> In any case, what's that got to do with what we're talking about.> > Yes, I do find it ridiculous that you call someone a 'Shiv Sainik' because> he agrees with the Babri demolition. There were thousand of Sadhu's around> as well. Are you now going to insist that all Sadhu's are Hindu militants?> Or that all Hindu's are Sainiks?> > Look at what you write and how ridiculous it sounds...> > Just for the heck of it, Inder, i am from the art school of Baroda. There> are protests and all sorts of people everywhere. Some who agree what art is> and some who disagree. There is much art i dislike and ignore. Some protest> more noisily. Then again, i think that we can not stop protests as it is a> fundamental right and we have all seen cases - many recently - where the> protest has created affirmative action.> > As for the 'running behind you with a Trishul' - read the para, and the> meaning should be clear. Something I wrote just a bit back, insisting that> people fit into a group just so that you are mentally comfortable bracketing> them in one extreme is ridiculous - and I'm sure as painful to them as it> was to you when you were being bracketed.> > Rgds, Partha> ................................> > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 6:00 PM, inder salim wrote:> > > Dear Partha,> >> > about Yasin Malik and others such radical beings, i have already said,> > that i regret that there no thinking radical ( terrorists ) around,> > who could have forced some changes rather than giving excuses to army> > and police to do all what they are doing.> >> > yes, who is not taking advantage of the opportunities, particularly in> > politics, and kashmiri leaders are using all opportunities, like rest> > of other polticians are doing here. what is the difference ?> >> > my use of word EXONERATED was because Aditya said Yasin Malik is a> > PUPPET,....... that precisely means that there is a Master, here in> > Delhi. or abroad, i think you need to clarify that from Aditya, on> > what grounds he said that he is a puppet, he must be knowing better,> > since to wrote it with authority. i only found a clear meaning in word> > puppet.> >> > strange, that you see i am pushing Pawan Durani into Shiv Sanik Camp.> > Here, i would like to know what is your stand on Babri Demolition, i> > dont only condemn it but i see it the most unfortunate thing in India> > since Partition. please read again, Pawan ji says that he approves the> > Demolition of Babri Mosque, and Shiv Saniks/VHP publicly owned the> > responsibility,> >> > 'running behind me with a Trishul' what is this means ?. oops> > i really could not follow this phrase, i guess this was meant for> > someone else,> >> > about the ink on yasin malik, that is debate, and if you reduce it to> > childish or college level activity then you certanily undermine the> > forces who disrupt art activities in Baroda, and burn Hussain's> > paintings and and break art works at Sahmat etc. just recent> > examples.> >> > with love and regards> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote:> > > Dear Inder,> > >> > > 1. If you read the full text of Aditya's messages (since there were two)> > > and> > > look beyond the literal text, then Yasin comes across as an> > opportunist> > > jumping to any camp / cause that gives him maximum boost / benefit.> > >> > > 2. In either case, don't see how you construe that as "technically> > > exonerated> > > him from the crimes...". This 'technically exonerated' bit sound> > like> > > sitting> > > in court and releasing a criminal since the witnesses are too scared> > to> > > testify. In any case, if crimes were committed by Yasin, then he is> > > responsible> > > unless he takes the mental imbalance route, wherein he'll not be> > held> > > liable.> > >> > > 3. Pushing Pawan or anyone else into a 'Shiv Sainik' group is as> > ridiculous> > > as calling all Kashmiri's terrorists because some are. Just because> > I'm> > > a Hindu> > > does not mean i'll have to run behind you with a Trishul. You sound> > > like the> > > visitors of 20 years back from abroad who were as shocked by the> > cattle> > > and> > > elephants on the street as they were by finding people who could> > speak> > > English> > > and believed that shouting made them more understandable !> > >> > > 4. Finally, sure throwing ink on someone could have caused an accident.> > > However,> > > as a ex-student from the days that ballpens were not around,> > remember> > > the> > > amount of fun we had in ink-fights. This incident was most likely> > not> > > done in> > > the same spirit, but am certainly glad that it stuck to the level> > of> > > ink, and did> > > not translate into acid or anything else that would have had> > permanent> > > results.> > > Childish, sure it was, but certainly not a tit-for-tat response to> > > someone the> > > perpetrators believed to be a killer.> > >> > > Rgds, Partha> > > ......................................> > >> > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, inder salim > > wrote:> > >>> > >> Dear Aditya,> > >>> > >> just a moment,> > >> you say that Yasin Malik is a puppet,> > >>> > >> then all the actions of 1990 in kashmir were drafted in New Delhi or> > >> abroad, not in kashmir, not by kashmiris, right.> > >>> > >> if that is true, you have technically exonerated him from the> > >> crimes you believe he has committed.> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> Dear Pawan> > >>> > >> i think the list deserves to know if Pawan Durani is a Shiv Sanik,> > >> because you boldly approve Demolition of Babri Masjid> > >> the point is important, here, because , now it is established that> > >> Shiv Saniks authored that INK ON YASIN MALIK, and you approved that> > >> act as well.> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul> > >> wrote:> > >> > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers,> > >> > bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases> > >> > against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet> > >> > at> > >> > the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is an> > >> > important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal> > >> > Politics.> > >> >> > >> > He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri> > >> > Pandits,> > >> > but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a> > >> > non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement> > >> > inside> > >> > and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him.> > >> > Today> > >> > 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in> > Jammu> > >> > where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends.> > >> >> > >> > I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just> > >> > another> > >> > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We do> > >> > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest> > with> > >> > the> > >> > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of> > many.> > >> > We> > >> > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our> > >> > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led to> > >> > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'.> > >> >> > >> > How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath?> > >> >> > >> > Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a> > >> > leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice> > >> > delivery> > >> > mechanism.> > >> >> > >> > Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes> > you> > >> > speak for him ? Can I smell something?> > >> >> > >> > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one> > knows> > >> > why> > >> > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one> > wishes> > >> > to> > >> > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about him.> > >> >> > >> > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed> > >> > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the> > >> > reacton> > >> > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates.> > >> >> > >> > He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim> > >> > Sebestian's> > >> > BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence> > >> > speaks> > >> > a thousand words.> > >> >> > >> > You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my> > >> > business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest> > at> > >> > Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type.> > >> >> > >> > 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of> > >> > religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and> > apologise> > >> > for> > >> > the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more> > people;> > >> > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No> > >> > country> > >> > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon> > >> > Yasin> > >> > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to> > >> > 1994 he> > >> > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into> > pieces.> > >> > He> > >> > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area.> > Yasin> > >> > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to> > >> > encourage> > >> > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something> > >> > else> > >> > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your> > >> > Narender> > >> > Modi is in picture ?> > >> >> > >> > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would> > >> > continue> > >> > to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath> > >> > killer> > >> > and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early 90's,> > >> > my> > >> > community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our> > >> > rights> > >> > and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question.> > We> > >> > have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And,> > the> > >> > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All> > through> > >> > our> > >> > conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support> > >> > Yasin> > >> > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for> > >> > some> > >> > movement. There is a lot behind the curtains.> > >> >> > >> > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a> > street> > >> > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me> > >> > laugh> > >> > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame.> > >> >> > >> > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you> > >> > are;> > >> > because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone> > >> > just> > >> > wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues.> > >> >> > >> > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group> > >> > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright.> > >> >> > >> > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of> > Yasin> > >> > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain> > >> > intact.> > >> > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk to> > >> > him ?> > >> > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the protest> > >> > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just> > >> > the> > >> > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate> > attention,> > >> > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An aazad> > >> > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards.> > >> >> > >> > Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically,> > >> > geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second> > thought> > >> > on> > >> > this.> > >> >> > >> > The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish> > to,> > >> > should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in> > >> > Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres.> > >> >> > >> > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such> > >> > terrorists> > >> > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might> > >> > happen> > >> > in future and in which direction talks will shape up.> > >> >> > >> > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by> > his> > >> > own> > >> > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry.> > I'm> > >> > sure> > >> > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'.> > Also,> > >> > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases> > pending> > >> > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but> > >> > in> > >> > the Central Jail ... :-)> > >> >> > >> > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where> > from> > >> > you> > >> > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external hands> > >> > guiding you into it.> > >> >> > >> > Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is> > >> > purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and> > >> > meet> > >> > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists.> > >> >> > >> > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that> > >> > they> > >> > started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how things> > >> > shape> > >> > now... We both would be here somewhere.> > >> >> > >> > And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand> > >> > clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody> > Yasin> > >> > Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to> > >> > his> > >> > right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir'> > protesting> > >> > or> > >> > campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!!> > >> >> > >> > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail.> > >> >> > >> > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I don't> > >> > want> > >> > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a bit> > >> > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions> > are> > >> > at> > >> > doubt.> > >> >> > >> > Best,> > >> > _________________________________________> > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > >> > Critiques & Collaborations> > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > >> > subscribe in the subject header.> > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> --> > >>> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com> > >> _________________________________________> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > >> subscribe in the subject header.> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > >> > >> > > --> > > Partha Dasgupta> > > +919811047132> > >> >> >> >> > --> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta> +919811047132> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 23:28:51 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:28:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <32144e990810250644h2cd6c49bq870f73f418cee5a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242226q2372ecd7q3a479321c247627f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250417r5c5f5bb9o7eb948694bfba662@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810250434y4619cbdct3dedf69293fd6335@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70810250530o5eec7abfm4d0506a7164d69ad@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990810250644h2cd6c49bq870f73f418cee5a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810251058n7d55b5fbq2434c311df44fa14@mail.gmail.com> Dear Partha, good to hear that you are from Baroda, and then you must give us a first had account of what happened in Modis Gujarat, and who Chandramohan was arrested, and how his Prof. suspended. if see that a simple democratic protest by modis goons, then i humbly differ it is very unfortunate that such ugly protests happen and continue to happen, and those who see it normal means to make a point in public domain are call is political are simply out of tune with realities of life in depth. I know, Terro is a strange thing, but when thousands of politicians indulge in opportunism why cant Yasin Malik do the same. Gandhi too has was opportunistic in his own way. but let not go into that in detail. We should realize that how subtly he appropriated what Bhagat Singh created with his sacrifice. you are still stuck with word EXONERATED , but you miiss the word puppet that Aditya used for Yasin Malik which in fact brought this word into my response. fortunately, we agree that there should be no demolition of ancient sites, whatever the compulsions. Yes, when Pawan ji publicly declares that he approves demolition, you have very little choice to defend him. unless you igonre the contradiction. you can again come on that. yes, you want to know why this demolition thing sprung up, because Shiv Saniks owned it. simple....and they threw ink on yasin malik to mark protest in their own style. So, you decide now, since, pawan ji had declared his liking for Shiv Saniks. and when you write that i believe that all the sadhu are shiv saniks, you are simply pumping your words into my mouth. i never said like that. There is a hell lot of difference between shiv sanik and a shadu. now seriously, do you think that that burning hussain works was a way of protest, and if so, then we strongly differ. yes, protest are fundamental right, well said by you, but please let me know what is your definition of protest. is throwing ink or acid or stones, or spitting or shit a mark of protest,. i feel otherwise, yes, one can do that, a hungry man can throw stones on others, if he has no food in his or her stomach, but a poltical protest, i believe it is worst form of ugliness.## i have not brackated anybody, and neither i am part of any bracket. i guess we share a lot of things , other than what we are talking right now. love and regards is On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 7:14 PM, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > Dear Inder, > > Terror is a strange thing, silent people like Gandhi with his non-violence > movement scared the British Empire enough that India won independance. > > If you will sit back and say that since everyone is taking advantage and > everyone is corrupt, so lets agree that they're right - then I will disagree > with you. To answer your point 'Whats the difference' - very simple - it's > wrong and we should not condone it. > > As for being exonerated - we've seen cases where people killed under the > influence of a Tantrik. That does not exonerate them. If a drunk man drives > a car and kills someone, he's responsible, even if he had a drink. Puppet or > not, Yasin is supposedly a thinking person and therefore responsible for the > actions he has taken. > > As for my stand on the Babri Masjid - well, I think it's a massive waste of > time to go hunting temples or mosques or churches that pre-date the other & > restore them. There must have been some sort of a dwelling where my house > today, and if someone who's ancestor lived there comes today and asks me to > move, i won't. If you do follwo this list, had mentioned it some time back. > In any case, what's that got to do with what we're talking about. > > Yes, I do find it ridiculous that you call someone a 'Shiv Sainik' because > he agrees with the Babri demolition. There were thousand of Sadhu's around > as well. Are you now going to insist that all Sadhu's are Hindu militants? > Or that all Hindu's are Sainiks? > > Look at what you write and how ridiculous it sounds... > > Just for the heck of it, Inder, i am from the art school of Baroda. There > are protests and all sorts of people everywhere. Some who agree what art is > and some who disagree. There is much art i dislike and ignore. Some protest > more noisily. Then again, i think that we can not stop protests as it is a > fundamental right and we have all seen cases - many recently - where the > protest has created affirmative action. > > As for the 'running behind you with a Trishul' - read the para, and the > meaning should be clear. Something I wrote just a bit back, insisting that > people fit into a group just so that you are mentally comfortable bracketing > them in one extreme is ridiculous - and I'm sure as painful to them as it > was to you when you were being bracketed. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................ > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 6:00 PM, inder salim wrote: >> >> Dear Partha, >> >> about Yasin Malik and others such radical beings, i have already said, >> that i regret that there no thinking radical ( terrorists ) around, >> who could have forced some changes rather than giving excuses to army >> and police to do all what they are doing. >> >> yes, who is not taking advantage of the opportunities, particularly in >> politics, and kashmiri leaders are using all opportunities, like rest >> of other polticians are doing here. what is the difference ? >> >> my use of word EXONERATED was because Aditya said Yasin Malik is a >> PUPPET,....... that precisely means that there is a Master, here in >> Delhi. or abroad, i think you need to clarify that from Aditya, on >> what grounds he said that he is a puppet, he must be knowing better, >> since to wrote it with authority. i only found a clear meaning in word >> puppet. >> >> strange, that you see i am pushing Pawan Durani into Shiv Sanik Camp. >> Here, i would like to know what is your stand on Babri Demolition, i >> dont only condemn it but i see it the most unfortunate thing in India >> since Partition. please read again, Pawan ji says that he approves the >> Demolition of Babri Mosque, and Shiv Saniks/VHP publicly owned the >> responsibility, >> >> 'running behind me with a Trishul' what is this means ?. oops >> i really could not follow this phrase, i guess this was meant for >> someone else, >> >> about the ink on yasin malik, that is debate, and if you reduce it to >> childish or college level activity then you certanily undermine the >> forces who disrupt art activities in Baroda, and burn Hussain's >> paintings and and break art works at Sahmat etc. just recent >> examples. >> >> with love and regards >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Partha Dasgupta >> wrote: >> > Dear Inder, >> > >> > 1. If you read the full text of Aditya's messages (since there were >> > two) >> > and >> > look beyond the literal text, then Yasin comes across as an >> > opportunist >> > jumping to any camp / cause that gives him maximum boost / benefit. >> > >> > 2. In either case, don't see how you construe that as "technically >> > exonerated >> > him from the crimes...". This 'technically exonerated' bit sound >> > like >> > sitting >> > in court and releasing a criminal since the witnesses are too >> > scared to >> > testify. In any case, if crimes were committed by Yasin, then he is >> > responsible >> > unless he takes the mental imbalance route, wherein he'll not be >> > held >> > liable. >> > >> > 3. Pushing Pawan or anyone else into a 'Shiv Sainik' group is as >> > ridiculous >> > as calling all Kashmiri's terrorists because some are. Just because >> > I'm >> > a Hindu >> > does not mean i'll have to run behind you with a Trishul. You sound >> > like the >> > visitors of 20 years back from abroad who were as shocked by the >> > cattle >> > and >> > elephants on the street as they were by finding people who could >> > speak >> > English >> > and believed that shouting made them more understandable ! >> > >> > 4. Finally, sure throwing ink on someone could have caused an >> > accident. >> > However, >> > as a ex-student from the days that ballpens were not around, >> > remember >> > the >> > amount of fun we had in ink-fights. This incident was most likely >> > not >> > done in >> > the same spirit, but am certainly glad that it stuck to the level >> > of >> > ink, and did >> > not translate into acid or anything else that would have had >> > permanent >> > results. >> > Childish, sure it was, but certainly not a tit-for-tat response to >> > someone the >> > perpetrators believed to be a killer. >> > >> > Rgds, Partha >> > ...................................... >> > >> > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, inder salim >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Aditya, >> >> >> >> just a moment, >> >> you say that Yasin Malik is a puppet, >> >> >> >> then all the actions of 1990 in kashmir were drafted in New Delhi or >> >> abroad, not in kashmir, not by kashmiris, right. >> >> >> >> if that is true, you have technically exonerated him from the >> >> crimes you believe he has committed. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Pawan >> >> >> >> i think the list deserves to know if Pawan Durani is a Shiv Sanik, >> >> because you boldly approve Demolition of Babri Masjid >> >> the point is important, here, because , now it is established that >> >> Shiv Saniks authored that INK ON YASIN MALIK, and you approved that >> >> act as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, >> >> > bureaucrats and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred >> >> > cases >> >> > against him; which I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a >> >> > puppet >> >> > at >> >> > the hands of various agencies inside and outside the country. He is >> >> > an >> >> > important tool to turn, control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal >> >> > Politics. >> >> > >> >> > He has been a killer, kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri >> >> > Pandits, >> >> > but even Kashmiri Muslims and even IAF personnel who were killed in a >> >> > non-combat situation. What could be worse? He enjoys free movement >> >> > inside >> >> > and outside the country inspite of several cases pending against him. >> >> > Today >> >> > 25th October, is one such hearing of his case in the TADA Court in >> >> > Jammu >> >> > where the case has been on for last 18 years and he rarely attends. >> >> > >> >> > I fail to understand where did I corner you or scream at you. Just >> >> > another >> >> > figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly WAKE UP !!!!! We >> >> > do >> >> > protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly we protest >> >> > with >> >> > the >> >> > HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned Godfather of >> >> > many. >> >> > We >> >> > can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed and raped our >> >> > brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which led >> >> > to >> >> > exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. >> >> > >> >> > How can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? >> >> > >> >> > Just memorising speaches and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make >> >> > a >> >> > leader of him. He has been a Terrorist and needs to face justice >> >> > delivery >> >> > mechanism. >> >> > >> >> > Its strange why you are going out of bounds to save him. What makes >> >> > you >> >> > speak for him ? Can I smell something? >> >> > >> >> > 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 no one >> >> > knows >> >> > why >> >> > nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No one >> >> > wishes >> >> > to >> >> > dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit about >> >> > him. >> >> > >> >> > In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta expressed >> >> > reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the >> >> > reacton >> >> > from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. >> >> > >> >> > He is widely known as a person who killed innocents. Watch Tim >> >> > Sebestian's >> >> > BBC Hard Talk with much famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence >> >> > speaks >> >> > a thousand words. >> >> > >> >> > You can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of >> >> > my >> >> > business. But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest >> >> > at >> >> > Jantar Mantar not me. So, Kindly think and then type. >> >> > >> >> > 9. If someone kills your parents and brother tomorrow in the name of >> >> > religion and after a few days says I didn't mean to do it and >> >> > apologise >> >> > for >> >> > the same and you come to know he has done the same with 100 more >> >> > people; >> >> > will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in your family? No >> >> > country >> >> > is different. I still believe in the law of the land. Hopefully, soon >> >> > Yasin >> >> > Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. From 1989 to >> >> > 1994 he >> >> > was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla Bhat into >> >> > pieces. >> >> > He >> >> > killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy Lalchowk area. >> >> > Yasin >> >> > Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, you want to >> >> > encourage >> >> > him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, does something >> >> > else >> >> > push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same when your >> >> > Narender >> >> > Modi is in picture ? >> >> > >> >> > 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In Kashmir' world-wide initiative would >> >> > continue >> >> > to campaign and spread awareness against this maniac and psychopath >> >> > killer >> >> > and terrorist Yasin malik who unfortunately roams free. In early >> >> > 90's, >> >> > my >> >> > community met exodus; just for your information. If we seek for our >> >> > rights >> >> > and justice now; is it a crime ? We have a right to ask and question. >> >> > We >> >> > have a right to protest. We have a right to take legal course. And, >> >> > the >> >> > public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' or their supporters. All >> >> > through >> >> > our >> >> > conversation, it is clear something really motivates you to support >> >> > Yasin >> >> > Malik. And, I can't take it just as a geuine concern or a support for >> >> > some >> >> > movement. There is a lot behind the curtains. >> >> > >> >> > What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a >> >> > street >> >> > hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make >> >> > me >> >> > laugh >> >> > Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. >> >> > >> >> > I dare you to bring Yasin Malik yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless >> >> > you >> >> > are; >> >> > because no-one supports the so called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone >> >> > just >> >> > wants peace and no more of Yasin Malik. Money flow continues. >> >> > >> >> > I don't know how you know so much about Yasin Malik's internal group >> >> > details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't seem as bright. >> >> > >> >> > 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by likes of >> >> > Yasin >> >> > Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will remain >> >> > intact. >> >> > Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to talk >> >> > to >> >> > him ? >> >> > Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the >> >> > protest >> >> > rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just >> >> > the >> >> > way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate >> >> > attention, >> >> > there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An >> >> > aazad >> >> > Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. >> >> > >> >> > Kashmir has always been an integral part of India historically, >> >> > geographically, culturally, and politically. There is no second >> >> > thought >> >> > on >> >> > this. >> >> > >> >> > The likes of terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish >> >> > to, >> >> > should be transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay >> >> > in >> >> > Kashmir. Enough of bloodshed and massacres. >> >> > >> >> > A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem coming till such >> >> > terrorists >> >> > roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to predict what might >> >> > happen >> >> > in future and in which direction talks will shape up. >> >> > >> >> > It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by >> >> > his >> >> > own >> >> > people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. >> >> > I'm >> >> > sure >> >> > you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. >> >> > Also, >> >> > Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases >> >> > pending >> >> > against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, >> >> > but >> >> > in >> >> > the Central Jail ... :-) >> >> > >> >> > And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I don't knpow where >> >> > from >> >> > you >> >> > jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some big external >> >> > hands >> >> > guiding you into it. >> >> > >> >> > Well, I don't have problems if you meet Syed Sallaudin either. This >> >> > is >> >> > purely your wish. You have such bent of mind. You can as well go and >> >> > meet >> >> > Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in encouraging terrorists. >> >> > >> >> > Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in Kashmir. Terrorism that >> >> > they >> >> > started doesn't force us to include them in talks. Lets see how >> >> > things >> >> > shape >> >> > now... We both would be here somewhere. >> >> > >> >> > And lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to >> >> > understand >> >> > clearly. I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody >> >> > Yasin >> >> > Malik is a terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to >> >> > his >> >> > right location. And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' >> >> > protesting >> >> > or >> >> > campaigning against this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! >> >> > >> >> > Now, go and prepare for Yasin's wedding in Jail. >> >> > >> >> > P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here itself, I >> >> > don't >> >> > want >> >> > to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try and be a >> >> > bit >> >> > tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your intentions >> >> > are >> >> > at >> >> > doubt. >> >> > >> >> > Best, >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Partha Dasgupta >> > +919811047132 >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 23:33:06 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:33:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide Message-ID: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, honestly. There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life moves on, yaar. I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any other sane topic on this list. So, please get the hell out of here. (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody please write my obituary on Sarai) From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sat Oct 25 23:34:06 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:04:06 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Antarctica: An Artist's DIalog Message-ID: Hello people - this is an interview for an interesting conference coming up at Columbia University/Barnard College called "Gender on Ice" coming up in November. My film "Terra Nova: Sinfonia Antarctica" and Isaac Julian's film "True North" will be featured. An Interview with Paul D. Miller on his Antarctica film “Terra Nova” by Elena Glasberg, ELENA GLASBERG. Adjunct Associate Professor, Princeton University Terra Nova – Sinfonia Antarctica trailer: http://www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php Elena Glasberg Question: When did Antarctica emerge into your world? Do you recall images? Was it fiction? Or, learning of historic exploration figures? Paul D. Miller Response: I guess some of my most formative film experiences come from early cinema pieces like the two films – Melies’s 1902 “The Conquest of the North” and the “false” history of Frederick A. Cook’s 1912 “The Truth About the Pole” – I used to watch old films whenever I could, so I’d catch this kind of strange dualism. Like the Lumiere brothers, Cook’s film tried to portray itself as a realistic almost documentary kind of scenario. I usually prefer the other school of though – Melies started out as a magaician who wanted to apply magic technique to film. The two films are about the opposite side of the planet from Antarctica, but they’re both amazingly, eerily prescient about how discovery and the “voyager’s path” would then take on almost surreal proportions. That’s a similar motif for my “Terra Nova” and “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” projects. They both use found footage, print-design, and propaganda to show how exploration at the edge of the world is a prism to view how nations look at one another, and how art itself is a highly politicized medium. I guess you could say I’m inspired as much by Jules Verne as I am by the exploration of the film “90 Degrees South” by cinematographer Herbert G. Ponting, who was one of the first people to get footage from Antarctica. Elena Glasberg Question: Your work engages in and emerges through tropes and modes of globalism, the internet specifically. Yet you also dj for live audiences. How does Antarctica figure within your view of a global audience? Paul D. Miller Response: For me, music isn't music - it's information. So much of my work comes from the hard learned truth that collage speaks across many borders, cultures, and yes, economic classes: if you want to deal with hip hop and then give a lecture at places like Yale or Harvard, you really have to be prepared to speak in academic pidgin as much as be able to flow in the club scene etc. I never really thought of myself as “separate” from the normal art and academic works that I create. My books, art shows, and exhibitions are driven by the obsession I have with saying that multi-culturalism, market forces, and the basic fabric of “The Enlightenment” are interconnected. One of my favorite recent books “Capital and Language” by Christian Marazzi - you can look at people like him and his concept of new forms of “hoarding” as a way to engage some kind of logic of culturally produced “value.” I always am astounded at how little the artworld understands the kind of cultural economy that dj culture emerges from. Nothing, after Wagner’s concept of “gesamkunstwerk” exists in a vacuum: whether our culture is now taken from youtube.com videos or material posted online from cell phones by soldier’s in Iraq, we exist in a world where “documents” act as a kind of testimony. But once something is recorded, it’s basically a file waiting to be manipulated. That’s what links the concept of the remix to everything going on these days – truth itself is a remix. Anyway, it’s all about a new kind of relativism. Elena Glasberg Question: What do you think of Vaughan-Williams’ Sinfonia Antartica, as music and as an historical artifact of an Antarctic vision? Paul D. Miller Response: Vaughn Williams, it’s well documented, was pre-occupied with the concept with the “end of empire” and the end of World War II. I really think that’s when the concept of the British Empire and Commonwealth needed to be re-examined, and if you look at the Indian liberation project of Ghandi and Indian independence in 1947, that kind of stuff must have really been foremost on the mind of the generation of composers that needed to give the British something to think about after the war as a way of looking forward to reconstruction. What had the war been about except imperial ambition! By making Robert Scott, someone who had died in service to the Empire, the film “Scott of the Antarctic” really set the tone for how the twilight of the British Empire needed to look for new heroes. Let’s not forget that the first composition to really engage Antarctica started as a soundtrack for Vaughn'’s score to the film. I enjoy playing with the concept of music as a mirror we hold up to society – the Vaughn soundtrack, like the original music composed by Joseph Carl Breil for D.W. Griffith’s film “Birth of a Nation” - was a pastiche of themes and motifs that would speak to a film audience. I wanted to update the same concept with turntables and digital media. I really don’t think of music, film, and art as separate. There is a seamless connection – it’s the creative mind at work. Elena Glasberg Question: I’m interested that you actually went to a part of the Antarctic – I’m assuming the peninsula, by boat from South America. How did your conception of Antarctica as a place interact with your embodied presence? What was the most surprising aspect of being in Antarctica? Paul D. Miller Response: I went to several islands, and ice fields that were near the Antarctic peninsula but a little further down on the continent. I’ll be going back in a while to check out more of the interior. We chartered a Russian ice breaker called “The Academic Ioffe” and the next time I go, I’m going to try and get to the Lake Vostok base. The most surprising thing about Antarctica was the stench of penguin shit. You can smell them a mile or so out in the water!!! I’m always “embodied” (I always tend to mix that up with “embedded” these days anyway), so there’s no conflicted sense of spatial issues that seems to haunt a lot of the discourse about what physical performance is all about in a digital context. I live and remember it all. The idea of the “journey” if you look at Melies film “The Conquest of the North” from 1912, is still with us. It’s now just “hyper-realism.” Elena Glasberg Question: Do you think people belong in Antarctica? Paul D. Miller Response: No Elena Glasberg Question: Why do people need to hear Antarctica? How does this mode distinguish itself from seeing Antarctica, which has been the overwhelming mode since the turn of the last century and the accident of near simultaneous advent of film photography and embodied access to the inner continent? How do you see your mixed modes of approach – embodiment and digitized representation - in the context of the history of representing the (arguably) most mediated place on earth? Paul D. Miller Response: Everything is I do is about paradox. It makes life fun. I think that people need to “HEAR” Antarctica because it is at the edge of the world. The idea of “mixed modes of approach” is a good term (of course, the dominant theme in dj culture is “the mix” so there’s some salient linkage there…). The technical terms “heterodoxy” or “heterogeneity” both find a solid home in me and my work. I celebrate that kind of thing. One day, the software we use and the life we live will blur. It'’s kind of already happened. But that’s why I go to places like Antarctica. NY is probably one of the most mediated places on earth. If I have a conversation at a café, someone will put it on a blog. If I walk down the street, someone puts photos of it on flickr. It’s irritating, but hey… it’s the way we live now. Antarctica represents a place mediated by science – it’s literally almost another world. Some of my favorite science fiction writers like Kim Stanley Robinson’s “Antarctica” or Crawford Kilian’s “IceQuake” who deal with Antarctica come up with some of the same themes: science, art and the weirdly un-worldliness of the ice terrain. I think of that kind of stuff as an update of the speculative visions of Verne that inspired Melies with his earlier films. My film “Terra Nova” and my gallery show “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” are in the same tradition. Music from the edge of the physical environment and music from the core of the urban landscape. Watch them collide in paradox. Elena Glasberg Question: You work among a wide variety of audiences, purposefully and joyously erupting into places not usually associated (variously) with dj culture, beats, aural sophistication, and academic-style intellectualization. Where do you place Antarctica within your work and audience. Paul D. Miller Response: I have a degree of comfort with new places that makes life in this hyper turblulent and digitally abstract contemporary life. Life is hybrid and always has been. It’s just that digital media is making us realize that it’s not about the “end of Western culture” because of multi-culturalism etc It’s actually giving Western culture a place in whatever else has been going on. Which is healthy… I just roll with it all. Edward Said’s critique of Western classical music as a kind of involuted “samizdat” (as above, so below…), rings true for my work. I really think that the distinctions that defined most of the 20th century are almost gone. Technology has moved far more quickly to transform our social structures than anyone could have anticipated. Dj culture accepts this and celebrates this kind of phenomenon precisely because it’s not linked to the production of objects – it’s obsessed with continuous transformation, and that’s where I live. In total flux. Elena Glasberg Question: You are intrigued by Antarctica’s geopolitical exception – its lack of indigenous and its never-nationalized status now under the 1959 Antarctic Treaty System. I see this reflected in your playful echo of the title of a 1981 novel by John Calvin Bachelor, The People’s Republic of Antarctica, in your marvelous poster series. How do you see Antarctica -- as an exception to global politics? A demonstration of alternative possibilities to history? An opportunity for fantasy? What vision of propaganda and history inspired the poster series? Paul D. Miller Response: If you look at the 20th century advertising, as Sigmund Freud’s nephew Edward Bernays, who coined the term “public relations,” was the hidden architecture holding both capitalism and communism together. Everyone had to get their message out! Whether it was Stalin who said that “engineers are poets of the soul” or Chairman Mao, who put teachers in chains and paraded them as false prophets, the kind of “stay on message” type ethos dominated the media discourse of every nation. With my “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” print design projects and my film projects – I simply ask the question: what if the nation state went away? What centrifuge would we all then call home? What would be the point of looking at the state as a kind of generative architecture? Would who be commissioning the designs, who would be fostering the arts? The answer: corporations. I use the ironic motif of stuff like the British East India company or some of the ways that we have corporate sponsorship of exploration/ high endurance sports etc as examples. If you look at Rodchenko’s designs or Malevich’s early minimalism, you can see an echo of that in my work – the revolution for the U.S. after the fall of the Berlin Wall was untrammeled capitalism. Look around and see what it’s done for us! The only competing ideology at this point is radical Islam. I’m not so sure that people would like to embrace Sharia economics, but if they look at the Middle East, there’s lots of solid banking going on (unlike Wall street this week). I guess you could say that my work is kind of an aesthetic futures market where any sound can be you. That’s what sampling is about. The Terra Nova and Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica projects are mirrors held up to a world that is melting. I don’t know about you, but I think it’s a pretty strange mirror to see oneself in. I read John Calvin Bathelor’s book and enjoyed it, but aside from “sampling” the title (I do this a lot!), there’s not much of a connection – except that his book is a meditation on the end of norms of governance. Elena Glasberg Question: How are you creating the sounds of Antarctica? What is the technical process and how does it reflect Antarctic representation, its challenges, and its history? Paul D. Miller Response: My gallery installation at Robert Miller Gallery and Irvine Fine Arts is loosely based on the “false” story of Frederick A. Cook – who went North. “The Truth about the Pole” (1912) was a self- promotional docudrama in which producer Frederick A. Cook sought to have himself treated as a heroic adventurer who discovered the North Pole, a claim he'd been making since 1909. No director wanted credit for making it. Cook plays the starring role as himself. There is at least one appealing set that attempts to be naturalistic, showing a frozen ship in the distant background. Mostly it all looks pretty hooky. It's interesting how little one needs for a quick jaunt to the Pole, a log-book, sled, & American flag being the whole of it. All one requires to recover from such an easy stroll is a nice wooden hut & one sip of coffee from a tin cup. A silent film villain, Harry Whitney, is the evil scoundrel who started the rumor that Cook's former claim to have climbed Mt McKinley was a fabrication. This was (according to the revisions proposed by his film) Whitney's newest salvo in a campaign to make Cook's polar expedition appear to have been a hoax. I think it’s hilarious – I repurpose this kind of thing, and flip it into Southern perspective. Who owns the ice? Who owns the memory of the ice? My composition for the installation at the galleries is based on gamelan music from the idea of “shadow theater” mixed with string arrangements taken from my score to Terra Nova. Debussy after all, was inspired by gamelan, and I guess you could say ambient electronic music is about as “impressionist” composition as you can get. I like the idea of ambiguity. It keeps you on your feet, makes you think about paradox and the digital world of relativity we live in today. When I went to Antarctica I wanted to have a place where there was essentially a fresh perspective and where I really needed to think about how I would interact with the environment in a way that would free up some of the issues that drive normal hip hop. The sounds in my projects come from nature – wind, water, the noise of feet walking on ice… my project takes those sounds and uses them as an acoustic palette. I mixed and remixed the material to the point that bass lines come from wind and water movement, and the sound of human breath can be a motif made into some kind of strange pattern. The score for “Terra Nova” was written in a much more conventional way, but that’s why I like to say I’m into paradox. You could almost say that the score for Terra Nova is neo-Baroque, just on the edge of when everyone thought that the Age of Reason had dealt a death blow to superstition in Europe. Try telling that to Sarah Palin! I guess you could say that my project is about the “sound of science.” Elena Glasberg Question: I’m struck by the influence of Gore’s documentary An Inconvenient Truth on subsequent representation of the Antarctic. I’m thinking in particular of all the computer graphic simulations of melting ice sheets in a pristine and remote Antarctic and the resultant rises in sea levels of very well known urban locations. Do you see your work in such a context of politicized – or catastrophic - simulation? Paul D. Miller Response: I’m a big Paul Virilio fan…. Let’s call Terra Nova in terms of theory speak (it’s just a different pidgin language after all): trajectories of the catastrophic, or pure war. Antarctica isn’t a place: it’s a location. It’s kind of like saying Buddhism isn’t a religion: it’s a philosophy. Everyone knows that, but they still get it wrong. I always try to get people to think about conceptual frames of reference: context is important in my work, and so is content. How do you establish an uneasy tension between context and content when everything can be remixed and changed, and there’s no final “version” of anything? In my film “Terra Nova” that kind of graphic design imprint is crucial to how the story is told. If you look at the old Terra Nova expedition of Robert Scott, you can only think: wouldn’t it have been great if they had satellite footage to tell them they weren’t that deep into the ice, and to compare some different routes to get out of the drift their ship was caught in. Stuff like Apsley Cherry Garrad’s infamous “The Worst Journey in The World” where he says “Polar exploration is at once the cleanest and most isolated way of having a bad time that has ever been devised,” is one of the most succinct ways one could put this simple observation. Melting ice sheets look cool, but then again, so do solar flares on the surface of the sun. They’re both harmful… but hey.. art makes things look cool. Elena Glasberg Question: Your film will be debuting at the democratic convention in August. How exciting. Obama will presumably see it. What would you like him to see, to respond to, and to promote in his election platform (and possible administration)? Paul D. Miller Response: I really think it’s time to say goodbye to the 20th century. So yes, the Obama convention with Dialog City as the focal point for the contemporary art scene was a breath of fresh air for me. I really liked premiering my film at the Denver Opera House. The Colorado art scene is a lot more progressive than NY! I think Obama will probably be one of the greenest presidents since Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the White House. The Republicans went crazy, but in hindsight, it was really really really cool. I like stuff like that – that’s why I premiered Terra Nova at the Democrats convention.I think of Terra Nova as a reflection site – a location for the politics of perception that we use to look at the environment. Elena Glasberg Question: Antarctica and in particular the South Pole have been fantasy objects for US and European imperialism since the early 1900s. Authors populated the unknown south with wishful fantasies of lost races, arable lands, and mineral wealth. Postcolonial nations such as Argentina, Chile, and even Malaysia have fought and argued to be included among the arbiters of Antarctica’s possible riches. How do you negotiate nationalism and the history of imperialism in your own approach to the territory? Paul D. Miller Response: You really have to think about Antarctica as a “possible terrain” – it’s a surface we project on, but it doesn’t reflect us back. I always think of the phrase Bruce Sterling says: the suicide bomber is the poor mans cruise missile. There’s always going to be conflict over resources as long as people think everything is completely limited. The weird thing about the 21st century is that we have perspective. That’s something the warring empires of the past didn’t. We have history, comparative science, and above all, a sense of urgency with regard to global warming. And guess what – we still can’t get it together. Some of the best recent films dealing with Antarctica: Werner Herzog’s “Encounters at The End of The World” or the anti- whaling film “At the Edge of the World” both have this kind of “rebel/ misfit scientist” take on the expatriate community that lives in Antarctica. The cracks in the mirror are where some of the best images are to be found. Antarctica, for me, is just a really big crack in the way we look at the land claims of the “great nations” – I really think that my film project is a cinema-scape in the same tradition of Nam Jun Paik, John Cage’s “Imaginary Landscape” or Edgar Varese and Scriabin’s visual essays turned into sound. Imperialism is such a concrete process: take the land, brainwash the natives, make the people back home think it’s all being done in their name… The problem with the 21st century for that kind of schemata is that no one really believes it any more. It’s just one fiction of many. I tend to think that that’s a good thing. It’s time for a fresh kaleidoscope! We need more paradox than we can possibly know right now. And Antarctica is the place to manifest that kind of paradox. After all, it’s the end of the world. I want us to look over the edge… Elena Glasberg Question: The majority of people on earth will never come near Antarctica. How do you want them to think of their relation to this remote and highly mediated territory? Do you feel that you’re operating with a (excuse the phrase) blank screen, or do preconceptions of the region cloud collective action? Paul D. Miller Response: How do people hear Antarctica? It’s a question that lingers over this interview. Unmoored, unleashed, free floating - sampling derives it's sense of free cut and paste aesthetics from the interplay of the kind of "rip, mix, and burn" scenario of the 21st century's information economy. But there are so many cultural resonances that kick in when we think about "appropriation art." I love to throw in allusions and word play – it mirrors what I do with sound, so excuse the aside: In 1964 Ralph Ellison, one of my favorite writers, read a statement at the Library Of Congress about the possibility of an artform made of fragments. The lecture was called "Hidden Name and Complex Fate" and basically it was a manifesto about a series of poems and music that was made into a "mix" of music that influenced him. It was kind of a "sonic memorial" made of fragments from artists and composers as diverse as Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Bessie Smith, Mahalia Jackson - but the selection was meant to be a literary scenario that evoked music as a kind of text. Of the jazz legends he invoked in his discussion, he simply wrote that "the end of all this discipline and technical mastery was the desire to express an affirmative way of life through its musical tradition... Life could be harsh, loud and wrong if it wished, but they lived it fully, and when they expressed their attitude toward the world it was with a fluid style that reduced the chaos of living to form." As an artist, writer, and musician, this kind of hybridity is something that drives my work. I'm inspired by the destruction of old, boring, ways of thinking and feeling, by the casting into the flames of obsolence all the stupid old categories that people use to hold the world back from the interplay of uncontrolled "mixing." Yeah, I say - we need to mix and remix everything. There is no final version of anything once it's digital. Is this a mirror we can hold up to society in the era of information overload? Dj mixes, freeware, open source media... yeah - they say it is possible. Antarctica is a realm of possibility because put simply, very few people are aware of its story. That in itself is a rare and elusive quality that the beginning of the 21st century has brought front and center into modern perspective: there’s strength in invisibility. You have to think of the landscape and the way artists interact with it. John Cage’s “Imaginary Landscape” from 1939 was composed of records playing frequencies. But if you fast forward to his composition “In a Landscape” from 1948, you can easily see early taste for percussion instruments and "found sounds," as well as his interest in embedded, recursive rhythmic structures, while the last two of the series, composed in 1951 and 1952, exhibit the influences of Cage's experiments with various kinds of pre-compositional chance operations. I think that is what resonates with Antarctica for me: the space to be sonically free. After all: it’s the only place on Earth with no government. What’s the soundtrack to that? Elena Glasberg Question: Most reporting on Antarctica these days tends toward the catastrophic: ice melting, penguins starving, and now oil prices so high that scientific research programs themselves are financially threatened with extinction. What’s your main message amid this noise? And what if, anything, do you think is the greatest threat to Antarctica directly? To the globe more generally? Paul D. Miller Response: See above! From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Oct 25 23:42:45 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:12:45 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4903619D.5070808@gmail.com> Kirdar, These people are simply using the migration issue to foist the Hindutva agenda on this list and to wreck it if they can't. So, I am afraid your logic will have no effect. People who do this sort of thing, are not the kind this list is meant for. If they don't shape up, they will have to ship out - or be shipped out - eventually. Tapas Kirdar wrote: > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, honestly. > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > moves on, yaar. > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > other sane topic on this list. > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > please write my obituary on Sarai) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From karimnonvore at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 00:11:44 2008 From: karimnonvore at gmail.com (karimnanvore karim) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:11:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Friends The kashmiri pandits writing in this group belong to a secton of Kashmiris who were born and brought up in urban settings in kashmir and have never been exposed to the realities of life. How many of them have been to Mutthi Camp in Jammu or to the slum like shelters where Kashmiri Pandits from Rural Kashmir are stayin in and around Delhi. These Panun Kashmir, roots in Kashmir Shops are being run on the hopes and aspirations of common Kashmiri Pandits who have been living in miserable conditions in such camps. It will be interesting to know how many of Panun Kashmiris, Roots in Kashmir are running schools in such slums or hospitals or have made arrangements for the education of these pandits in the form of scholarships. I Guess the group will be interested in knowing that aspect of Such organizations! On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kirdar wrote: > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > honestly. > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > moves on, yaar. > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > other sane topic on this list. > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > please write my obituary on Sarai) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 00:38:19 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:38:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: References: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810251208n1d3fb5fay3836825bc5f9dbe3@mail.gmail.com> Kirdar, I understand your concern and apologise if my long e-mails have been troubling your inbox on and off; but do I really have an option ? If people continue to diplomatically or indirectly abuse my community; and also defend a terrorist who is responsible for the exodus of an entire community; How can I stay mum ? I'm sorry, but I can't be a mute spectator to this propaganda. Till such people continue their ill mannered and negative approach towards Kashmiri Pandit Community and the ethnic cleansing faced by them; things can't stop easily. It is sad but true. I object to your sudden example of Kashmiri Pandits coming to some function in Chinmaya Auditorium and driving and parking their limousine like cars. This isn't true; till the best of my knowledge. It is just another rumour spread by one of these propagandist elements here. Could you share your source or some proof to back your borrowed 'imaginative story' ? Also, Yes, Kashmiri Pandits are starving; for your information. Kindly visit Jammu camps and see first hand how more than 50,000 Pandits are languishing in animal-like state. It is just pathetic situation. Worse is the air pollution which emits from the nearby brick kilns. There is a rise in cancer, asthma, diabetes and other worse diseases and ailments. As regard to questions raised by my dear Karim sahab. I don't know what to say ? How does he know we were born and brought up outside Kashmir ? I at least was born in the valley. Most other Pandits being elder to me were well settled in the valley and had been living their since their birth. I along with all my RIK members have visited and lived with my brothers in Muthi, Mishriwala and other camp and non-camp areas, Rather, one of my best friend Sunil Bhat belongs to Muthi Camp - Phase -1. Panun Kashmir has been running mid-day meals, education training and medical camps on a day to day basis in these camps. Apart from that RIK and other initiatives have been helping and assisting people there from time to time, mostly for education and their medical aid. I didn't have to answer all those imaginary claims but, I didn't want you to live with wrong information collected from some sleeping source. And, Lastly, Kirdar, if you are bored, you are WELCOME TO UNSUBSCRIBE at any moment of time. We need not learn from you, what and how to do things. You may kindly keep the advice with yourself and aleep. You are free to discuss any sane topic you feel like. I haven't forced you to keep your hands tied. You are free to do anything here. Lastly, It is people like terrorist Yasin Malik who roam around in limousine's and live in 5-star accommodation. Madam Sonia Jabbar can explain with more clarity where those funds and assistance come from; as she is very close to this terrorist Godfather. Its strange. Kashmiri Pandits seem to be a problem o you Kirdar. But, not a terrorist Yasin Malik ? Wah !! On 10/26/08, karimnanvore karim wrote: > > Dear Friends > > The kashmiri pandits writing in this group belong to a secton of Kashmiris > who were born and brought up in urban settings in kashmir and have never > been exposed to the realities of life. How many of them have been to Mutthi > Camp in Jammu or to the slum like shelters where Kashmiri Pandits from > Rural > Kashmir are stayin in and around Delhi. These Panun Kashmir, roots in > Kashmir Shops are being run on the hopes and aspirations of common Kashmiri > Pandits who have been living in miserable conditions in such camps. > It will be interesting to know how many of Panun Kashmiris, Roots in > Kashmir > are running schools in such slums or hospitals or have made arrangements > for > the education of these pandits in the form of scholarships. I Guess the > group will be interested in knowing that aspect of Such organizations! > > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kirdar wrote: > > > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > > honestly. > > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > > moves on, yaar. > > > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > > other sane topic on this list. > > > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > > please write my obituary on Sarai) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 04:14:41 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:44:41 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: <6353c690810242224u366d1a00s2202f3ca1e2aa416@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690810240313h4a0d8623ia88f46e9b13647ce@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810242224u366d1a00s2202f3ca1e2aa416@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4903A159.9000803@gmail.com> Aditya has asked why Yasin Malik, who faces murder charges, should be accommodated in the Kashmir peace process. Sonia has already answered that question. I agree with the government's rationale for treating him in a friendly way and including him in the peace process. I too think there is nothing to be lost from his participation, and possibly something to be gained, precisely because he is a former terrorist who has renounced terrorism. I say this without necessarily holding the Maliks and Malkins of the world in high regard. However, Aditya's question can be answered from another perspective. Apologies if I am repeating something that has been posted already. The Aditya flood has washed away all possibility of reading all the posts. I am sure he knows that criminality and even parliamentary politics go hand-in-hand in India. Here is a breakdown of the criminal antecedents of present members of parliament (lower house): "There are 120 MPs with criminal cases against them out of 543, or 22.1%. Among the major parties, the BJP has 29 MPs with a criminal record, the Indian National Congress (INC) 24, the SP 11, RJD 8, CPM 7, BSP 7, NCP 5 and CPI 2. The number of cases of serious crimes is 333, with several MPs having multiple cases. If we look at violent crimes like murder, attempt to murder, robbery, dacoity, kidnapping, theft and extortion, rape, other violent crimes like assault using dangerous weapons or causing grievous hurt, the Samajwadi Party (SP) leads with 80 cases, followed by BSP 43, BJP 17, INC 16, RJD 9, CPM 5, CPI 1, NCP 2. Other crimes like cheating, fraud, forgery, giving false oaths to public officials and so on have BSP 23, RJD 22, INC 21, BJP 11, SP 11 and CPM 6." The site has a nice table with these numbers. Here are the numbers for the category "Murder, attempt to murder, culpable murder, causing suicide, etc.": BJP = 7 Congress = 4 CPM = 2 CPI = 1 BSP = 17 (runner-up, among the major parties) NCP = 0 (barred from competition until scores at least one hit) SP = 27 (champion) RJD = 2 Others = 24. Total = 84. Bihar's LJNSP (popularly known as LJP) had one MP with 17 cases related to murder. Though this is impressive, I do not know if it is an individual record in the current Lok Sabha. Here is a quotation from India Today, August 06, 2001 issue. It is about the Uttar Pradesh Assembly. "Long before Phoolan Devi entered Parliament, the BJP had fielded another reformed dacoit in the 1991 elections to the state Assembly. Tehsildar Singh was pitched against outgoing chief minister Mulayam Singh Yadav in Jaswantnagar in Etawah district. Tehsildar had been convicted in five murder cases and scores of dacoities. His death sentence had been commuted by the President in 1969 after a mass surrender by dacoits before Acharya Vinoba Bhave. Released from jail in 1972, he helped Jaya Prakash Narayan secure the surrender of 500 dreaded dacoits, including Madho Singh, Mohar Singh and Nathu Singh, each of whom carried a reward of Rs 1.5 lakh on his head. Other parties too have fielded former dacoits. The Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) put up a surrendered dacoit Ramsevak Patel, who had laid down arms before the Madhya Pradesh police in 1988, from Bara in Allahabad district in 1989. In 1996, the BSP fielded Hari Prasad alias Ghamri Kharwar from Robertsganj adjoining Mirzapur. The Samajwadi Party (SP) nominated dreaded mafia don Arun Shankar Shukla, alias Anna, as its candidate from Lucknow. Though Tehsildar, Anna and Patel failed to get the people's mandate, Patel managed to enter the Assembly in 1991. Many "practising" criminals have also managed to stand in elections. While the SP fielded the likes of Madan Bhaiya and Durga Prasad Yadav and Uma Kant Yadav in the 1996 assembly polls, the BSP supported Shiv Raj Singh and Nafees Ansari. Mukhtar Ansari, an MLA who figures in several cases, was a member of the party till he was expelled recently. The rogue's gallery of the BJP included Ram Sevak Singh and T.P. Shukla. There were independents too, with the gangster Babloo Srivastava contesting the assembly elections from within the confines of the Lucknow Jail." If the BJP and other parties can send such people to state Assemblies and the Parliament, where is the scope for outrage over Yasin Malik's appearance at India Gate? Admittedly, Yasin Malik's personal score is better, i.e., worse, than Tehsildar Singh of BJP. According to Sonia, charges against him relate to the kidnapping of Dr Rubaiya Sayeed and the shooting of 6 IAF men. (Rubaiya's family - or some members of it - seem to have forgiven Yasin. I have seen Mehbooba Mufti (Rubaiya's sister) and Yaseen Malik attend a meeting on the peace process, confer cordially between themselves, and speak very similar languages. Of course, being a politician, Mehbooba's behaviour could have come from political necessity rather than her personal feelings. I do not know what stand Mufti Md Sayeed and his family have taken in relation to the kidnapping charges against Malik.) In terms of sheer numbers, the difference between Yasin and Tehsildar is only one. Is it fair to disqualify Yasin from participating in the peace process for such a small difference? The judge - here, Aditya - should apply his discretionary powers in Yasin's favor. He should get at least some credit for killing only soldiers, not civilians. But even his score of six is not certain at this point, because apparently he has not been tried yet - probably to keep him out of jail, so that he can take part in the peace process. It could well deteriorate, i.e., improve, in the verdict. One may argue that he inspired many young Kashmiris to pick up the gun, kill people (mostly security personnel, not civilians, Pandit or otherwise) and often get killed themselves. But haven't some people - who enjoy much tender love and care in the Sangh Parivar (family) - inspired the young and not-so-young in Gujarat, Maharashtra, Orissa, Uttar Pradesh, etc., to take up arms and kill, rape, disembowel, and burn civilians, including pregnant women, children and old people? From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 06:29:56 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:59:56 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] Message-ID: <4903C10C.7000601@gmail.com> hello! if you meant what i think you meant, then you seem not to have followed my arguments. we wi wrote: > Tapas, > > >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or even > mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its practice. > > Good words n great recognition. Practice makes one perfect. You should > not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion. If you are > celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some > god what is that? If you are chanting names like > tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the > poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India? what about the > sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you > offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that? If some body die > then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what > about them and what for they? From birth to death and after death > everything is linked. This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND > HOLY SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA. > > As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas. You > are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a > way of performing dharma. , You are not sufficient enough to comment > about the Hindu dharma and ram. > The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did > tat way. > If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to > understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma. > > coming back on CASTE. > > Krishna in geeta says > 1) *chatur varna maya* srishtam guna karma vibhagasha! > > 2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata > abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham! > > not only that if we take other instance from lalitha sahasranama, > > 3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini" > > like this i can quote many > > Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas > only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I > dont wish to define. Its all with time > Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and > have knowledge. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM > > It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah is. > My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation, because > the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's > occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing, > because the BJP's use of the “caste card” in elections is well > documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not have > been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon > themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the Hindutva > agenda. > > That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed to > all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not above > casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their > rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the > saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate > people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins – Aditya's > own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it > difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits > stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their > plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics. > > Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles wide of > the mark. > > > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction > > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not permit > > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, > > are the foundation of Hinduism. > > Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism and > what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only > scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble > deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the heterogeneity > of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World Hindu > Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a > solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this: > anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity of > one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi (basil) > plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria. > > What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is > not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the belief > of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by > reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on account > of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion > is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very major > way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus, > the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from school > textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go to > school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If > anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based > killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees in > many areas. > > When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one > must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas > in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George > Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white people, > not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that the > caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are very > harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places. There > is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram > cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been > practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of > Brahmins. > > Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves only > one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the Sangh > Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate casteism or > other harmful practices. > > Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the > assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads. > > > Tapas > > Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > > > > SECTION – I > > > > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > > > > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > > not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > > > > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX > (29) > > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > > resides in him. > > > > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to > 'select' (one's > > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > > caste system or birth based caste system. > > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > > > > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > > days as compared to other civilizations. > > > > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the > British and > > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > > sometime in 1800 AD." > > > > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group > called > > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > > fraudulent methods. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 06:30:17 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:00:17 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: vedas and hindu and castes.] Message-ID: <4903C121.5090401@gmail.com> thanks for your message. i am not sure exactly what all this has to do with the points i made in my post. rajendra bhat wrote: > Tapas > your post on this subject matter made very interesting read, but the starting point itself is not in line with right start. Vedas are for the mankind, originated in universe and hindu is one who learns and knows the way of life to live life in material, intellectual and spiritual spheres to fullest extent in dharmic way. Dharma again is not religion, but it is way of life to live life to the fullest extent in righteous way, which means by living fullest, by not hurting any living being in body, mind and soul. Religion word can not, does not capture the full essence of dharma. Again rituals do not confine the dharma. rituals performed without understanding the meaning of such rituals are of no use to the performer as well as to the society in which he lives. > > Now, about castes, the vedas do not attribute to castes, but only vocations of different types, those who perform the kriyas of the super soul, perform worship of super soul are one varna, so also those who rule the subjects, those who perform cultivation of agricilture produce, and those who sell the services, products and also those who serve all these type of varnas. The birth does not give varna to any individual, his work in society gives him the varna, deeds define the varna. Thus a person who is supposed to perform rituals of worship indulges in sale and service of products can not be in the worshipper in broad sense, even when he worships everyday in his home. What he does for the community matters, not in his home.Geetha is the essence of veda in the sense, even if one does not take it as religious treaty, but as treaty on human psychology, mind and body in different tathvas, it gives the guidance to live life in righteous way. religion has > nothing to do with it. > > As everyone is aware, the continent also known as bharatha khanda, or this sub-continent is, of many kingdoms ruled by different rulers in the bygone era, of whom, the different clans are well known, that of surya vamshasthas, chandra vamshastas etc, and then many other of different origins. Of these, the earliest recorded is lord rama, suryavamshastha, later Lord krishna, chandra vamshastha, and as all of us aware what happens today, is news, what happened few years ago is history, many centuries ago is history in many narratives as legends. ! > > For administration of rule of the king, many kings made their own set of rules, many kings were of different kinds, some autocrats, some dictatorial, some very consierate for their subjects at all times. manu, the king made his rule of looking at the entire subjects as one composit cosmic body, in manusmirthi, as says that those who are learned are the "heads' or intellect of the society, those who defend the kingdom are the soldiers of the kingdom, or arms of the king, those who do business in kingdom,lend and borrow money for the kingdom are the bussiness of finance for the king, and all others who serve the king and kingdom as they do not possess any other skills other than that of service, are the subservients of these three classes of citizens in the cosmic body of composit society, none lesser or more important, all being part of the same one single cosmic body. But being intellectuals, who advice king in administration, the learned naturally > got more status, being close to power, so also the executives who implemented the orders of the king, as they had powers vested in them to enforce the dictum of the king. last but not least money and fiscal masters who did attend to finance of the kingdom, by virtue of the money power were also powerful in the kingdom. But judicious rule of the kings never gave inequality in rule, that it is known as good rule of the kings. > > After invasion of different kings in to this continent, the different kinds of rule took roots, those who ruled included the turkish, mughal and islamic kings, and subjects to gain closeness to the rule even changed faith to that of the rulers as it happens even today.? To justify such change of faith, the castes were invented and it made easier for british rule which came to indian subcontinent as business contigent with hardly 200 soldiers, to rule the nation by divide of caste. Ofcourse the greed of the rulers to own more lands for their kingdoms was catalyst to break down of the kigdoms and inheritence was decided by british businessmen.! During this period, the missionaries had a role to play, as they saw the intellect of learned to exploit their faith, created the upper and lower birth as criteria for the inferiority complex to propagate the faith of christianity as all are children of god, equal, god loves all his children etc, but after > conversion to faith, one can see even today the converts retain their cate names, proudly say that they are upper cate converts ! And also marriages within the faith also is determined more by dowry power in all the faiths to obliterate the caste equations. social status again is more determined by material wealth possessed by the person, how much he can donate for the god, is the status symbol even in these new found faiths. new bless new home by bishop, one has to shell out few lakhs in Kerala and if a mulla has to recite prayers for the new business or new home one follower of faith has to shell out the large amounts if he wants a renowned mulla. Whereas this is true to some extent in followers of hindu way of life, one can also see that the importance of clergy is minimal in hindu faith unlike these abrahamic faiths. > > Evebn today, the conversion do take place more because of the bad governance of rule of laws as the good of democracy does not reach all, and the aspirations of these citizens when is not met, the cravings to get what is rightfully due to them, is leading them to convert to the faith of the rulers, in this case the christianity.Unfortunately, the evangelists that have come from far off nations have come with large funds to meet the small needs of the poor when the system has failed them, and the false promises of all in the ruling has made the job of conversion that much easier. With divided polity in diffrent segments of caste, language and regions the voting percentage being what it is today at dismal 45 percent, even small section of "commune" votes can make or mar the chances of rulers..? > > And the system also wants to retain the identity of castes and faiths so that the divide is stark and useful to divide and rule. Even the left parties who say that religion is the opium of masses, do retain the religion as we see in their ruled states as they appease the refugees with id proofs and driving licence and voters ids , ration cards in the process of vote bank build up. > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 09:26:03 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 09:26:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: References: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70810252056lf34150elaf85e1514fa500e0@mail.gmail.com> Kirdar : Let your soul rest in peace. Flowers would be sent by courier.Hope this group would be spared of a Kirdar in future. With the logic you have given , your state of mind deserved peace and I hope you may have already taken the extreme step. Tapas Ray : Cant not expect any support or reasoning from you. Leftists like you ditched India even dur ing the Quit India Movement , so can not any change. The problem is that you all havent changed over years , though world over your logic has failed .Shameless opportunits all across the world. Karim : I am not sure of how much you know about Kashmiri Pandits , since you have used names of Panun Kashmir , let me inform you that out of two charity hospital run in refufee camp in Jammu, One Hospital Shriya Bhatt Mission Hospital was started and is being run by Panun Kashmir only. Pawan Durani On 10/26/08, karimnanvore karim wrote: > > Dear Friends > > The kashmiri pandits writing in this group belong to a secton of Kashmiris > who were born and brought up in urban settings in kashmir and have never > been exposed to the realities of life. How many of them have been to Mutthi > Camp in Jammu or to the slum like shelters where Kashmiri Pandits from > Rural > Kashmir are stayin in and around Delhi. These Panun Kashmir, roots in > Kashmir Shops are being run on the hopes and aspirations of common Kashmiri > Pandits who have been living in miserable conditions in such camps. > It will be interesting to know how many of Panun Kashmiris, Roots in > Kashmir > are running schools in such slums or hospitals or have made arrangements > for > the education of these pandits in the form of scholarships. I Guess the > group will be interested in knowing that aspect of Such organizations! > On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kirdar wrote: > > > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > > honestly. > > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > > moves on, yaar. > > > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > > other sane topic on this list. > > > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > > please write my obituary on Sarai) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 10:28:39 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent letter to MHRD for Nagari Pracharni Sabha Message-ID: <881321.51948.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >From Prof. Vasudha Dalmia: Dear friends and colleagues, I am sending you this letter of protest addressed to Arjun Singh, Minister for Human Resources, with the hope that you will be willing to add your signature to it. It concerns the present state of the Nagari Pracharini Sabha, Varanasi. There are several people amongst the Sabha’s present staff who are greatly distressed by its radical disintegration; the information below stems largely from them. It will seem credible to any one who has tried working in the Sabha lately. There is some urgency to the matter, because from my own impression of the situation, the deterioration is rapid. Another kind of urgency has to do with the central government. It is unclear how long this coalition will stay in power. To another government, differently configured, many of us may not be interested in applying for help. The bid for the preservation of the Sabha, as I see it, is not an antiquarian drive alone, but an effort to preserve a reservoir of data, which continues to be interpreted and re-interpreted in various ways to serve the needs of the present. Please let me know as soon as possible whether you would like to join the signatories. Ideally, the letter should be sent off by early next week. The more widely spread the protest, the better. Krishna Sobti will be joining us, and various others to whom I have spoken informally. All that is needed from you is one line confirming your assent and your present institutional affiliation. There is good reason to hope that the media will take up the matter and that it will be investigated and further pursued. With best regards, Vasudha Dalmia THE LETTER: To Hon’ble Shri Arjun Singh Minister for Human Resources Development Government of India Shastri Bhavan Dr. Rajendra Prasad Road, New Delhi 11 00 11 Hon’ble Shri Arjun Singh, We write to draw your attention to the plight of Nagari Pracharini Sabha in Varanasi, an institution of national status. In more than a century of its existence, students and scholars from India and across the world have turned to it as a major resource for their work. It is now in a state of dissolution and we ask for your immediate intervention in its running and maintenance. The foundational importance of the Nagari Pracharini Sabha (Society for the Propagation of Hindi, 1893) need hardly be stressed. Equipped with a library as early as its fourth year, the Sabha’s most important activity was the search for manuscripts in Hindi and Hindi-related languages. From 1896 on, the Sabha began to conduct a systematic search for old Hindi manuscripts. Their findings, enshrined in the voluminous Search Reports, have provided the very basis for the standard editions of major Braj Bhasha (Surdas and others), Avadhi (Tulsidas, Jayasi) and Khari boli poets and writers. Its research-oriented journal, the Nagari Pracharini Patrika, which also began publication in 1896, appeared for well over a century, first as a quarterly, and from 1907 as a monthly. The dictionary project, the focus of the second decade of the Sabha’s activity, lead to the publication of the eleven-volume Hindi Shabda Sagar (1929), still a dominant force in the world of Hindi lexicography. The first major history of Hindi literature, Hindi Sahitya ka itihas by Ramchandra Shukla (1947) originated as the preface to this dictionary. The key positions in the Sabha were held by luminaries in the world of Hindi letters. The Sabha became the prime repository for subsequent endowments of private papers and manuscripts and continued to make important contributions to North Indian literary and cultural history till well after independence. The Sabha is now in a state of radical disintegration. The library is in a sad condition, a small cluster of students from the city work in semi-darkness. The entrance is blocked and the frequent electricity cuts plunge the building into further darkness. There is no generator to provide even temporary relief. There are no photocopying machines, computers or indeed air conditioning in the interest of manuscript preservation. There is serious understaffing - where there were once fifty, there are now only nineteen. There has seen no pay increase in the last several years. The publications division is barely functioning. There have been no new publications in the past five years. The older stock is much depleted, whatever little activity there is now consists of reprints, that too in no systematic fashion, leaving many once-prestigious series incomplete, thus for instance the ‘Brhat Itihas’. The standard works of standard authors are barely kept in print, what appears is on poor paper and in poor print quality. The Sabha’s own printing press was sold off more than a decade ago; the money awarded for computerization by the central government not utilized to set up a new press. The Sabha’s journal, once a respected organ of research, with a solid list of subscribers (2100) has now been reduced to a skeleton, light enough in content and layout to discourage even the most loyal readership (numbering 300 to 400). The monthly journal is still produced, to gather dust in the back rooms of the Sabha. The Sabha always had a substantial budget. In 2003/4, it was awarded a further 93 lakhs to digitize the valuable journals and manuscripts in its possession. A NOIDA firm was entrusted with the task. Whatever the outcome of this project, no material is available for the use of the scholars. Some manuscripts and journals were apparently digitized, many were in a very fragile state, and have suffered serious damage as a result of these labours. The foundation stone of the present building was laid by the Maharaja of Benares in 1902. The entrance, designed in the 1940s, was built with the intention of completing an urban ensemble that included the Kotwali, the Town Hall and the General Post Office. Today, the once gracious façade is entirely obscured by an ugly and uncompleted concrete construction, built by the former General Secretary of the Sabha. It is rented out to a row of shops facing the street. The General Body has not met in three years, the names of the dead still figure on their lists, thus Ramanand Sagar, of the TV series fame. The Executive Committee, with its thirty-three members, many of them absent, meets in a desultory fashion, whenit is seen fit to call a meeting and does the work of several consecutive years in a single meeting. Of the office holders, many are titular, others ageing, ill or simply dead. The important posts are occupied by the family of the present General Secretary, who inherited the position from his father. He and his brother live and work in Delhi. The sole occupants of the International Guest House, inaugurated by Vice-President Shankar Dayal Sharma several years ago, have been family members of the former and present General Secretary. It is also rented out to interested parties in the marriage season. There is no report of the activities of the Sabha’s branches in Haridwar and Delhi, which occupy large and valuable real estate. There is need for a complete overhaul of its present structure, and its regulation and supervision by the Central Government. The important posts in the Sabha need to be awarded on the basis of literary distinction as well as administrative skills rather than heredity. We ask for your urgent intervention in this matter. Signed From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 10:55:30 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] In-Reply-To: <4903C10C.7000601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486688.42215.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hmm Tapas,         Your arguments shows that you are a confused person and hence they are useless like you.  Why and how         Being a name Tapas(by ur parents,friends,relatives and many more like this.....) without doing a tapas (tan/man) you are are passing commentary about the things which tapasics found by PRACTICE long long long AGO.   By your mail children can understand that you have severe understanding problems with HINDU religion and INDIA.  That is why I wrote what is what.  How is it happening in INDIA.  You pl let every body know your argument if it not a commentary on India and religion.   Regards, Dhatri. --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 6:29 AM hello! if you meant what i think you meant, then you seem not to have followed my arguments. we wi wrote: > Tapas, > > >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or even > mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its practice. > > Good words n great recognition. Practice makes one perfect. You should > not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion. If you are > celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some > god what is that? If you are chanting names like > tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the > poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India? what about the > sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you > offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that? If some body die > then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what > about them and what for they? From birth to death and after death > everything is linked. This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND > HOLY SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA. > > As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas. You > are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a > way of performing dharma. , You are not sufficient enough to comment > about the Hindu dharma and ram. > The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did > tat way. > If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to > understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma. > > coming back on CASTE. > > Krishna in geeta says > 1) *chatur varna maya* srishtam guna karma vibhagasha! > > 2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata > abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham! > > not only that if we take other instance from lalitha sahasranama, > > 3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini" > > like this i can quote many > > Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas > only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I > dont wish to define. Its all with time > Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and > have knowledge. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM > > It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah is.. > My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation, because > the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's > occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing, > because the BJP's use of the “caste card” in elections is well > documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not have > been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon > themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the Hindutva > agenda. > > That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed to > all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not above > casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their > rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the > saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate > people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins – Aditya's > own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it > difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits > stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their > plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics. > > Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles wide of > the mark. > > > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction > > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not permit > > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, > > are the foundation of Hinduism. > > Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism and > what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only > scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble > deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the heterogeneity > of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World Hindu > Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a > solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this: > anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity of > one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi (basil) > plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria. > > What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is > not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the belief > of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by > reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on account > of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion > is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very major > way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus, > the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from school > textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go to > school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If > anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based > killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees in > many areas. > > When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one > must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas > in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George > Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white people, > not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that the > caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are very > harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places. There > is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram > cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been > practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of > Brahmins. > > Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves only > one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the Sangh > Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate casteism or > other harmful practices. > > Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the > assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads. > > > Tapas > > Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > > > > SECTION – I > > > > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > > > > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > > not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > > > > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX > (29) > > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > > resides in him. > > > > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to > 'select' (one's > > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > > caste system or birth based caste system. > > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > > > > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > > days as compared to other civilizations. > > > > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the > British and > > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > > sometime in 1800 AD." > > > > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group > called > > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > > fraudulent methods. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 11:31:36 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] In-Reply-To: <486688.42215.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <788271.69031.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> forget to write one thing! although your name is tapas you better start practicing things.  You have lot of myths and mischiefs about everything.   Veda:  Rugveda,Yajurveda,Samveda, Adharveda.  Longggggg.... ago scholarly people write commentaries to part of these by searching the meaning by PRACTICE. Hence Upanishads and puranas came into existence.  GITA  is just a saramsh of Vedas and Upanishads. (that means if you read geeta that is equivalent enough to read 4 Vedas and 18 Upanishads and puranas. Simply say the entire content is in GEETA)   You need not byheart or practice but just I request you to read GEETA 18 CHAPTERS fully  with meaning (Devanagari/Sanskrit only) Daily 30 minutes. For doing this you need not join RSS,SANGH PARIVAR, any political party or leave any including your day to day activities.   To name a child,to join a school,to join a job, to sign a agreement, to sign a contract, to start an office one need a good dates(tithi). Without breaking a coconut/without having a kalas nothing happens.  Without lighting a deepa no civil,political ceremony will took place. As per Yuga dharma every thing is going as it was happened in KRITA,TRETA(RAM/RAMAYAN),DWAPARA(KRISHNA/GITA/MAHABHARAT) period.  Come on Where does your argument stand.      P:S: INDO-US nuke deal inked to law on the day of VIJAYDASHAMI. --- On Sun, 10/26/08, we wi wrote: From: we wi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] To: "Tapas Ray" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:55 AM Hmm Tapas,         Your arguments shows that you are a confused person and hence they are useless like you.  Why and how         Being a name Tapas(by ur parents,friends,relatives and many more like this.....) without doing a tapas (tan/man) you are are passing commentary about the things which tapasics found by PRACTICE long long long AGO.   By your mail children can understand that you have severe understanding problems with HINDU religion and INDIA.  That is why I wrote what is what..  How is it happening in INDIA.  You pl let every body know your argument if it not a commentary on India and religion.   Regards, Dhatri. --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 6:29 AM hello! if you meant what i think you meant, then you seem not to have followed my arguments. we wi wrote: > Tapas, > > >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or even > mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its practice. > > Good words n great recognition. Practice makes one perfect. You should > not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion. If you are > celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some > god what is that? If you are chanting names like > tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the > poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India? what about the > sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you > offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that? If some body die > then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what > about them and what for they? From birth to death and after death > everything is linked. This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND > HOLY SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA. > > As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas. You > are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a > way of performing dharma. , You are not sufficient enough to comment > about the Hindu dharma and ram. > The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did > tat way. > If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to > understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma. > > coming back on CASTE. > > Krishna in geeta says > 1) *chatur varna maya* srishtam guna karma vibhagasha! > > 2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata > abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham! > > not only that if we take other instance from lalitha sahasranama, > > 3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini" > > like this i can quote many > > Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas > only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I > dont wish to define. Its all with time > Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and > have knowledge. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM > > It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah is.. > My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation, because > the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's > occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing, > because the BJP's use of the “caste card” in elections is well > documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not have > been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon > themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the Hindutva > agenda. > > That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed to > all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not above > casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their > rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the > saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate > people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins – Aditya's > own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it > difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits > stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their > plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics. > > Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles wide of > the mark. > > > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction > > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not permit > > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, > > are the foundation of Hinduism. > > Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism and > what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only > scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble > deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the heterogeneity > of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World Hindu > Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a > solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this: > anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity of > one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi (basil) > plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria. > > What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is > not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the belief > of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by > reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on account > of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion > is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very major > way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus, > the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from school > textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go to > school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If > anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based > killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees in > many areas. > > When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one > must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas > in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George > Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white people, > not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that the > caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are very > harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places. There > is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram > cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been > practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of > Brahmins. > > Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves only > one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the Sangh > Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate casteism or > other harmful practices. > > Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the > assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads. > > > Tapas > > Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … > > > > SECTION – I > > > > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism > > > > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does > > not permit any caste system, whatsoever. > > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of > > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity > > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire > > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste > > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig > > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve > > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize oneness, > > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and > > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given here. > > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet > > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All > > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates that all > > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra number 3- > > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and > > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. > > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 of > > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly > > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. > > > > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many Shlokas > > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka > > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all > > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka number IX > (29) > > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, > > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord > > resides in him. > > > > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to > 'select' (one's > > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- > > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending upon > > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are four > > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by his > > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita > > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and > > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present in > > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of > > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, every > > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if their > > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family will > > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the > > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas treat > > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction any > > caste system or birth based caste system. > > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority > > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human > > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a subordinate > > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, "Vedo > > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma) > > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever > > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail > > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) > > > > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was not > > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a > > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of Satvic > > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were > > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who > > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a Brahmin > > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the Mahabharat > > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system > > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably well > > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in those > > days as compared to other civilizations. > > > > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present > > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the British > > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of the > > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst such > > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta > > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste because > > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the > > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance > > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the Portuguese > > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" by the > British and > > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial rule > > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being only > > sometime in 1800 AD." > > > > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of > > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are not > > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of low > > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ from > > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed > > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are divided > > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their > > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live near > > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) > > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in > > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. > > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in India > > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian > > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that homosexuality > > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are > > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? > > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was first used > > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao > > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political group > called > > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the > > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians and > > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and > > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and > > fraudulent methods. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 11:49:07 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <486143.84290.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Kirdar,        You are wrong.  If you want to discuss important topics and bring it to public interest then you can.  If you are vexed to read and understand you can stop reading mails. Its all in your hand.    Regards, Dhatri. --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Kirdar wrote: From: Kirdar Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:33 PM One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, honestly. There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life moves on, yaar. I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any other sane topic on this list. So, please get the hell out of here. (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody please write my obituary on Sarai) _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 11:52:05 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:52:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] In-Reply-To: <788271.69031.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <486688.42215.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <788271.69031.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810252322v79d18750ie0453a38ebc58df2@mail.gmail.com> Dear Dharti and all Shub Dipawali in advance please click the image# # http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000fx320/ with love http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000fx320/ On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:31 AM, we wi wrote: > forget to write one thing! although your name is tapas you better start practicing things. You have lot of myths and mischiefs about everything. > > Veda: Rugveda,Yajurveda,Samveda, Adharveda. Longggggg.... ago scholarly people write commentaries to part of these by searching the meaning by PRACTICE. Hence Upanishads and puranas came into existence. GITA is just a saramsh of Vedas and Upanishads. (that means if you read geeta that is equivalent enough to read 4 Vedas and 18 Upanishads and puranas. Simply say the entire content is in GEETA) You need not byheart or practice but just I request you to read GEETA 18 CHAPTERS fully with meaning (Devanagari/Sanskrit only) Daily 30 minutes. For doing this you need not join RSS,SANGH PARIVAR, any political party or leave any including your day to day activities. > > To name a child,to join a school,to join a job, to sign a agreement, to sign a contract, to start an office one need a good dates(tithi). Without breaking a coconut/without having a kalas nothing happens. Without lighting a deepa no civil,political ceremony will took place. As per Yuga dharma every thing is going as it was happened in KRITA,TRETA(RAM/RAMAYAN),DWAPARA(KRISHNA/GITA/MAHABHARAT) period. Come on Where does your argument stand. > > > P:S: INDO-US nuke deal inked to law on the day of VIJAYDASHAMI. > > > --- On Sun, 10/26/08, we wi wrote: > > From: we wi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] > To: "Tapas Ray" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:55 AM > > Hmm Tapas, > > Your arguments shows that you are a confused person and hence they > are useless like you. Why and how > > Being a name Tapas(by ur parents,friends,relatives and many more > like this.....) without doing a tapas (tan/man) you are are passing commentary > about the things which tapasics found by PRACTICE long long long AGO. > > By your mail children can understand that you have severe understanding > problems with HINDU religion and INDIA. That is why I wrote what is what.. > How is it happening in INDIA. You pl let every body know your argument if it > not a commentary on India and religion. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism] > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 6:29 AM > > hello! if you meant what i think you meant, then you seem not to have > followed my arguments. > > > we wi wrote: >> Tapas, >> >> >>>These days it is recognized that a religion is not only, or > even >> mainly, its scriptures. It >>>is also, in a very major way, its > practice. >> >> Good words n great recognition. Practice makes one perfect. You should >> not suppose to say that no Hindu is practicing the religion. If you are >> celebrating birthdays,festivals what is it? If you are worshipping some >> god what is that? If you are chanting names like >> tapas,shuddha,pawan,aditya,ram,narayan what is that? What about the >> poojas happening in the TEMPLES through out the India? what about the >> sankalps and poojas happening in homes before the lunch? Lets say if you >> offer some rupees,flowers, or whatever what is that? If some body die >> then if he is burnt and later shradda kriyas offered every year what >> about them and what for they? From birth to death and after death >> everything is linked. This life to next life. THIS IS WHAT VEDAS AND >> HOLY SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING WILL GO AS PER PAAP AUR PUNYA. >> >> As this is not KRUTA,TRETA OR DWAPARA YUGA, one need not do yaznas. You >> are in the deteriorating age of KAL YUG and if you chant the name its a >> way of performing dharma. , You are not sufficient enough to comment >> about the Hindu dharma and ram. >> The ruler, god or avatar ram need to protect the dharma and hence he did >> tat way. >> If you or any body do have any doubts then you need to >> understand clearly what is dharma, what is adharma. >> >> coming back on CASTE. >> >> Krishna in geeta says >> 1) *chatur varna maya* srishtam guna karma vibhagasha! >> >> 2) yada yada hi dharmasya glani rbhavathi bharata >> abhuthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham! >> >> not only that if we take other instance from lalitha sahasranama, >> >> 3)"Aabrahma keeda janani Varnashrama vidhayini" >> >> like this i can quote many >> >> Varnas are defined since unknown age by god so as ashramas and dharmas >> only thing is we crossed them because of ............. resons which I >> dont wish to define. Its all with time >> Don't talk too much about the things which you do not understand and >> have knowledge. >> >> Regards, >> Dhatri. >> >> >> >> --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: >> >> From: Tapas Ray >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism >> To: "sarai list" >> Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:45 PM >> >> It would be good if Aditya would tell us who this Dhirendra A Shah > is.. > >> My guess is, he has something to do with the Hindutva formation, > because >> the theory of caste he is advancing reflects that formation's >> occasional, unconvincing claim that it opposes casteism. Unconvincing, > >> because the BJP's use of the "caste card" in elections is well > >> documented. Dhirendra Shah's theory of caste in Hinduism would not > have >> been worth discussing if Aditya and some others had not taken it upon >> themselves to turn Reader-list into a platform for pushing the > Hindutva >> agenda. >> >> That they are doing this in the name of Kashmiri Pandits (as opposed > to >> all Kashmiri migrants/refugees) shows two things: (a) They are not > above >> casteism, as non-Brahmin migrants seem to have no place in their >> rhetoric, nor - as Shuddha has pointed out – in the rhetoric of the >> saffron organisations that claim to give succour to these unfortunate >> people. (b) They are not above exploiting even these Brahmins – > Aditya's >> own caste community - in the interest of the Sangh Parivar. I find it >> difficult to believe that Aditya and others do not know the Pandits >> stand to lose the sympathy of many Indians because of the way their >> plight is being exploited for the sake of communal politics. >> >> Coming to Shah's theory, there are several things that are miles > wide of >> the mark. >> >> > There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures > sanction >> > the castesystem. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism does not > permit >> > any caste system, whatsoever. Vedas, the proud possession of > mankind, >> > are the foundation of Hinduism. >> >> Shah is confident that he knows what is a misconception of Hinduism > and >> what is the correct conception. This is remarkable, because not only >> scholars, but even the Parivar itself has had a great deal of trouble >> deciding precisely what can be called Hinduism, given the > heterogeneity >> of practices going under that name. At the VHP's second World > Hindu >> Conference in Allahabad (1979), Various Hindu groups failed to find a >> solid common ground. The compromise definition of a Hindu was this: >> anyone who recites prayers, reads the Gita, worships a personal deity > of >> one's own choice, uses the holy sound Om, and plants the tulsi > (basil) >> plant. One wonders how many Hindus today satisfy these criteria. >> >> What exactly Shah means when he says Hinduism is based on the Vedas is > >> not clear. True, this a popular impression, but its source – the > belief >> of early European scholars that they could understand the religion by >> reading ancient Sanskrit texts - has been abandoned long ago on > account >> of its obvious inadequacy. These days it is recognised that a religion > >> is not only, or even mainly, its scriptures. It is also, in a very > major >> way, its practice. I think no one will disagree that for most Hindus, >> the Vedas are a shadowy presence, a name vaguely remembered from > school >> textbooks – that is, for those who have been fortunate enough to go > to >> school. And caste is very much a practice in contemporary Hinduism. If > >> anyone doubts this, she can simply look at figures for caste-based >> killings, discrimination, etc., that are prevalent in varying degrees > in >> many areas. >> >> When someone talks about the so-called universalism of the Vedas, one >> must remember that the caste system was also the creation of the Vedas > >> in the form of varnas. There is probably a similarity here with George > >> Washington's talk of equality – which meant equality for white > people, >> not slaves of African descent. Also, it is factually incorrect that > the >> caste system became rigid under British rule. The codes of Manu are > very >> harsh about keeping Shudras and women in their respective places. > There >> is also the episode, in at least one version of the Ramayana, of Ram >> cutting off the head of Shambuka the Shudra because he had been >> practising things that were supposed to be the exclusive domain of >> Brahmins. >> >> Dehistoricising the Vedas and the Hindu religion as a whole serves > only >> one purpose – creation of a myth about Hinduism that serves the > Sangh >> Parivar's political purpose. It does not help to eradicate > casteism or >> other harmful practices. >> >> Lastly, it would be good to know what exactly is the basis of the >> assertion that the Gita is a sublimation of the Vedas and Upanishads. >> >> >> Tapas >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> > The following is from a document by Dhirendra A Shah … >> > >> > SECTION – I >> > >> > Caste System, Dalits and Hinduism >> > >> > "There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu > scriptures >> > sanction the caste system. But being based on Vedas, Hinduism > does >> > not permit any caste system, whatsoever. >> > Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of >> > Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity >> > with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of > entire >> > humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste >> > system or birth based caste system. Mantra number 10-13-1 of Rig >> > Veda addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu > vishve >> > amrutsya putraha). Innumerable Mantras of Vedas emphasize > oneness, >> > universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and >> > commonality of entire humanity. A few illustrations are given > here. >> > Vide Mantra number 5-60-5 of Rig Veda, the Divine Poet >> > declares, "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is > small. All >> > are equal". Mantra number 16.15 of Yajur Veda reiterates > that all >> > men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. "Mantra > number 3- >> > 30-1 of Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate > and >> > to love one another as the cow loves her newly born calf. >> > Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra number 3-30-6 > of >> > Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as > firmly >> > united as the spokes attached to the hub of chariot wheel. >> > >> > Bhagvad Gita, the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many > Shlokas >> > that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In Sholka >> > number V (29), the Lord declares that He is the friend of all >> > creatures ('Suhridam Sarva Bhutanam') whereas Sholka > number IX >> (29) >> > reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all > creatures, >> > and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the > Lord >> > resides in him. >> > >> > Hindu scriptures speak about 'Varna' which means to >> 'select' (one's >> > profession etc.); and which is not caste; and which is not birth- >> > based. As per Sholka number IV (13) of Bhagvad Gita, depending > upon >> > a person's Guna (aptitude) and Karma (actions), there are > four >> > Varnas. As per this Sholka, a person's Varna is determined by > his >> > Guna and Karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of Bhagvad Gita >> > specifies three Gunas viz. Satva (purity), Rajas (passion and >> > attachment) and Tamas (ignorance). These three Gunas are present > in >> > every human in different proportions, and determine the Varna of >> > every person. Accordingly, depending on one's Guna and Karma, > every >> > individual is free to select his own Varna. Consequently, if > their >> > Gunas and Karmas are different, even members of the same family > will >> > belong to different Varnas. Nevertheless, notwithstanding the >> > differences in Guna and Karma of different individuals, Vedas > treat >> > the entire humanity with the same respect; and do not sanction > any >> > caste system or birth based caste system. >> > Being divine revelation, Shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate > authority >> > for Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being > human >> > recapitulations, Smritis (Recollections) can play only a > subordinate >> > role. As per Shloka number (6) of chapter 2 of Manu Smriti, > "Vedo >> > akhilo dharma mulam" (Veda is the foundation of entire > Dharma) >> > whereas Shloka number 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that > whenever >> > Shruti (Vedas) and Smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will > prevail >> > over Smriti stipulation." (J. G. Arora – Organizer Weekly) >> > >> > "A Brahmin boy who had developed more of the Tamsic Guna was > not >> > allowed to remain a Brahmin in his adult age. In the same way, a >> > Shudra boy could become a Brahmin if he had developed more of > Satvic >> > Gunas. Let us look at the history of Vedic period. Vedas were >> > codified by Ved Vyas who was a son of a fisher woman. Valmiki who >> > wrote Ramayana was of a Shudra Class. Guru Dronacharya was a > Brahmin >> > but he took up weapons and faught as a Kshatriya in the > Mahabharat >> > war. One can give many such examples of how this Varna system >> > worked. For a long period of time this system worked reasonably > well >> > which is why the Hindu civilization was the most prosperous in > those >> > days as compared to other civilizations. >> > >> > It is a fact that the type of caste system (with its present >> > rigidity) we today talk about came into being only after the > British >> > census. When the British began to conquer India, the majority of > the >> > kings/rulers in different parts of India had been from amongst > such >> > castes which have been placed in the sudra varna. Chandra Gupta >> > Maurya was from a Shudra class The British demonized caste > because >> > it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered > the >> > process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and > governance >> > more difficult. The word 'Caste' comes from the > Portuguese >> > word "Casta" which was then coined as "Caste" > by the >> British and >> > used it to divide the Indian society to perpetuate its colonial > rule >> > in India. The real rigidity of the caste system came into being > only >> > sometime in 1800 AD." >> > >> > Albaruni (AD 973 – 1048) describes the traditional division of >> > Hindu society along the four Varnas and the Antyaja -- who are > not >> > reckoned in any caste; but makes no mention of any oppression of > low >> > caste by the upper castes. Much, however the four castes differ > from >> > each other,they live together in the same towns and villages, > mixed >> > together in the same houses and lodgings. The Antyajas are > divided >> > into eight classes -- formed into guilds -- according to their >> > professions who freely intermarry with each other. They live > near >> > the villages and towns of the four castes. (Sachau:101) >> > This is exemplified by the fact that in Bali Hindu society in >> > Indonesia, there is no dalit, no untouchability, no caste. >> > Therefore, castiesm and untouchability are social problems in > India >> > and are not part of Hinduism as propagated by the Christian >> > missionaries and evangelical folks. Can you say that > homosexuality >> > and pedophilia are rooted in Christianity because there are >> > practiced by many Christian priests in America and Europe? >> > Dalit: George Ooommen notes that the word 'dalit' was > first used >> > only in the 19th century by a Marathi social reformer, Jyotirao >> > Phule. The 'dalit' word was appropriated by a political > group >> called >> > Dalit Panther Movement of Maharashtra in 1970. And, now the >> > term, 'dalit' is appropriated by Christian theologians > and >> > missionaries to create anti-Hindu sentiments and convert poor and >> > illiterate Hindus to Christianity by unethical, immoral and >> > fraudulent methods. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 12:10:29 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Wishes for the Festival of lights Message-ID: <669818.14692.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear All,   Reciting the below, the oil from drops set on the arm, is taken in the fingers by the lady and applied to the head, cheeks, shoulders, waist, knees and feet, repeated three times. It is Ashirvadam for the youngster to live long and prosperously.   For men the names of Seven achievers to be recited are as follows :   " Ashwthamo, Balir Vyaso, Hanumanshcha, Vibhishanaha, Krupaha Parashuramashcha,Saptaite Chirangivinaha"   For women the five names are as follows:   "Ahalya, Draupati, Seetha, Tara, Mandodari Tatha, Panchakanyaha Smarennithyam Mahapataka Nashanam"          Wishing you all a very happy and prosporous DEEPAWALI.   Regards, Dhatri. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 12:39:03 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:39:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Situation in Bajaur Message-ID: Thousands stuck in camps of no return * Saeed Shah in Timergara, Pakistan * The Observer, * Sunday October 26 2008 Bewildered, angry and thrown into squalor, the refugees created suddenly by Pakistan's frontline role in the 'war on terror' know they could be stranded in camps for years to come. Up to 300,000 people have had to flee fighting in Bajaur, an extremely poor part of Pakistan's tribal border area with Afghanistan. Refugees in their own country, they live in vast government camps or beg shelter from friends and family. In an ominous sign for the government, their rage is directed not at the Pakistani Taliban, who took over their area, but the army, whose onslaught with jets and helicopters forced them to abandon their homes and livelihoods. Packed together in tented cities, these deeply conservative Islamic refugees have had to drop the strict purdah that the women observed at home. Large families - of eight or sometimes 12 - live together in single, draughty tents. They are all preparing for a bitter winter. At the sprawling Kungi camp, set on a hill just outside the town of Timergara, the only toilet is a communal ditch over which the men squat. The women use the surrounding woods. 'We get little food. We don't have enough water to drink, let alone the chance to bathe,' said Gul Mohammad, 25, who arrived at Kungi with seven family members. 'We brought nothing. We just came here to save our lives.' There is no electricity. Water is trucked in and food is distributed by the government and aid agencies, but supplies are very short. Inhabitants spend much of their day foraging for wood as cooking fuel, or buy it with the little money they have. There are at least eight similar camps scattered across the North West Frontier Province, which adjoins Bajaur. Already there are outbreaks of disease, with acute diarrhoea and respiratory illnesses being treated by medical aid workers. There are 30,000 people living in official camps and there are contingencies being prepared by the United Nations to accommodate 100,000, as people continue to flood out of Bajaur. Soon Bajaur will be virtually empty. The UN believes that a further 200,000 will be put up in houses by 'host families', often relatives. The Pakistani government has had to scramble to set up camps for these 'internally displaced people' as a result of the military assault in Bajaur, now into its third month. Aid agencies and the UN have rushed to provide support. At first it was thought the army would finish the job within a month, but with no signs of the operation ending these camps are being given more permanent facilities. There are fears that the sites could be infiltrated by Taliban militants, whose wives and children are already living there. When one Western aid worker asked a group of women at prayer who they were praying for, back came the reply: 'Our men fighting the army.' Pakistan's security forces are engaged in a fitful war with Taliban and al-Qaeda extremists who largely control the country's tribal border with Afghanistan. The Bajaur operation appears to be Pakistan's most determined attack on its home-grown extremists since 9/11. So far there is little action in other parts of the tribal belt. Should Pakistan finally decide that war is the only way to deal with the extremists, the fate of the people of Bajaur could be replicated across the tribal area, home to around three million people. The armed forces attack indiscriminately, according to Mohammad Ibrahim, 15. 'Our village is completely vacant now. There was constant shelling, so we ran. They drop bombs on mosques, on schools, they don't look. We're the ones dying, but they say that terrorists have been killed.' Pakistan's battle against Islamic extremists coincides with two other crises: political turmoil and economic collapse. They are pushing the country towards becoming a failed state, which nevertheless possesses nuclear arms. Bajaur is a strategically important position for the militants - a conduit to the rest of the tribal area and Afghanistan - which they are fighting hard to defend. The army claims to have killed more than 1,000 militants in the operation, a statistic that few believe. It has not released the number of civilians killed or wounded. 'Houses are being used by the militants as bunkers. They're firing from there. Therefore all houses from where the firing is coming are being engaged by the security forces,' said the chief army spokesman, Major-General Athar Abbas. 'To our knowledge, the civilians of this area have left.' Bajaur shows how intimately linked the campaigns in Pakistan and Afghanistan are. The Pakistani Taliban are defending the region with help from Afghan Taliban, Arabs, Chechens and other foreigners from al-Qaeda. The movement in Bajaur is being directed by Qari Ziaur Rahman, an Afghan Taliban commander, who is also overseeing the insurgency in the neighbouring Afghan provinces of Kunar and Nooristan. 'The mujahideen have completely gained control on the ground [in Bajaur]. The American agenda to destroy the mujahideen and all the [Pakistan] government options have failed to defeat us,' Rahman said in an interview with a local journalist. On the outskirts of the provincial capital, Peshawar, an old refugee camp for Afghans, who were forced out of it only a year ago, has had to take on a grim new existence, this time for Pakistan's own people. There are already about 5,500 Bajaur refugees at the Kacha Garhi camp, a wide, flat, wind-blown expanse, and there are plans to expand it to accommodate 21,000. Even here, in a city, there is little food and water and no electricity or gas, so people gather brushwood and branches to cook. Mohammad Jan, standing outside his family's tent at Kacha Garhi, ran from Bajaur when nine people from his village were killed by the army. 'There were no Taliban in our area,' Jan insisted. 'It is ordinary people who are dying. This is some kind of game, a double game that I don't understand.' One newly arrived elderly woman died of dehydration in the long, chaotic queue to register with the authorities at Kacha Garhi, causing a mini-riot. Mohammad Zahra said he had 20 mouths to feed, his children and those of three brothers. 'But we only get a little food,' he said, displaying a handful. One old man, Mohammad Amin, has been passed from camp to camp. 'When will we get the blankets and bedding?' he asked. 'After dying?' From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 12:44:33 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:44:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Review of a new book on Afghanistan Message-ID: The killing fields John Sweeney Published 23 October 2008 What are we doing in Afghanistan? A superb new history shows how successive invaders have tried, and failed, to bring order to the country through force Butcher and Bolt: Two Hundred Years of Foreign Engagement in Afghanistan David Loyn Hutchinson, 351pp, £18.99 The Duke of Wellington was a cantankerous reactionary but he knew a thing or two about Afghanistan: "a small army would be annihilated and a large one starved". On 13 January 1842, a sharp-eyed sentry in Jalalabad saw the more-dead-than-alive figure of the British army surgeon Dr William Brydon crossing the plain, struggling to stay on his pony. He had a bad head wound and was bleeding from the hand. When eventually the pony was taken into a stable, it lay down and died. Roughly 16,000 British troops and camp followers hadn't made it from Kabul - one of the most terrible defeats of British military might in the 19th century, commemorated in Lady Elizabeth Butler's painting Remnants of an Army. Brydon was the sole survivor. The massacre of Lord Elphinstone's army prompted a series of revenge attacks by the British, which developed into wars. In 1849, 1850 and 1851, huge numbers of British troops swarmed into Afghanistan, butchered and then bolted. And still the Afghans fought back. In 1860 the British took Peking but a few years later they were back in Afghanistan's borderlands with 12,500 troops - more than the army needed in order to subdue the Chinese capital - and still the Afghans fought back. In 1878 came the Battle of Sangin. The British had immense advantages in material - better guns, better communications, better everything - but still the Afghans fought back. On 17 January 1880 a small and extremely emaciated Talib, or religious student, approached a group of British Royal Engineers in Kandahar and tried to stab Sergeant Miller to death. This incident was the first recorded suicide attack in Kandahar. The Afghans were fighting back, asymmetrically. The British looked at the map and drew a line - a smudge, more like - along the highest ridges of the Suleiman Mountains, dooming generations of local people yet unborn to almost constant war. Right now, US drones are buzzing along that very line between Pakistan and Afghanistan and getting shot down. In 1893 the Amir of Afghanistan, a "cunning rogue" named Abdur Rahman, talked sweetly with the British but also wrote a book in which he attacked the infidel and called for jihad, using exactly the same extracts of the Quran as Osama Bin Laden did a century later. The Afghans were fighting back, ideologically. At the fag end of the 19th century Sir Lepel Griffin, a man of rare sceptical intelligence, wrote to the Times, thundering: "this policy consists in spending a quarter of a million annually on a post of defence and observation which defends and observes nothing, and on the maintenance of a road which leads nowhere". Oh dear. And after that came the Russians in 1979, and exactly the same thing happened to them. And now it's happening to the Americans and the British. Captain Leo Docherty, an officer of the Guards, fought battles in Sangin in 2006 that were first fought in 1878. He reflected on British policy: no proper plan, but "disjointed ill-considered directives from headquarters . . . an illusion . . . the time spent there now seems to be an egotistical folly . . . a tragic replay of Soviet clumsiness". Oh dear me. David Loyn, a long-time BBC foreign affairs reporter, has written a brilliant history book of Afghanistan's wars of the past two centuries, but more importantly the evidence he amasses poses a primary question about the war being fought inside Afghanistan: are we sure this is a good idea? The lesson from history suggests it might not be. This presents a horrible quandary. Al-Qaeda committed mass murder in Manhattan on 11 September 2001 and the whole operation was cooked up in Bin Laden's bases in Afghanistan. If the west's forces - chiefly the United States, Britain and Canada - pull out, it is inevitable that the Taliban will return to power and that al-Qaeda won't be far behind. General Sir Mike Jackson, the most thoughtful British soldier for a generation, said a few months ago that the war must be fought, because otherwise we hand over Afghanistan to the Taliban and then on to al-Qaeda. Anyone who believes that the Taliban/al-Qaeda don't pose a threat to the western world is daft. Too many people have died in Baghdad, Islamabad, Madrid, Bali and London since the 11 September 2001 attacks for anyone to hold the idea that the threat is imaginary or that the US will just turn the other cheek. On the other hand, the Afghan narrative is almost absurdly unchanging. Any foreign military adventure in Afghanistan is doomed to fail: the land is unforgiving and the people are hostile, secure in their Islamic faith - which ratchets up to a fresh level of purist absolutism with every bomb that falls. They may lose battle after battle, but still they fight. Loyn writes well of the Soviet invasion, of how the Soviet generals bombed, tortured and shot civilians willy-nilly, and yet still they lost and had to leave Afghanistan in defeat. He quotes the great Italian journalist Tiziano Terzani: "War is not a profession for Bin Laden and his people. It's a mission. Its roots lie in the faith they acquired in the close-minded Quranic schools, and above all in their deep feelings of defeat and impotence, in the humiliation of a civilisation, Islam, which was once great and feared but which now finds itself increasingly marginalised and offended by the overwhelming power and arrogance of the west." Is there a solution? Probably not. Absolutist Islam lacks the means but not the will to defeat the west. The west has the means but not the will to defeat absolutist Islam, least of all inside Afghanistan. However, it might help if we dumped well-intentioned fantasy. Loyn makes the point, again and again, that first British, then Soviet, and now US policy on Afghanistan has been formed by tellers of fairy tales in London, Moscow and Washington and not by the complicated and difficult reality on the ground. It is clear that he admires much about Afghans. He is one of very few reporters who have spent time with the Taliban - and found the men who protected him personally honourable, respected by their communities and very much in control on the ground. He is not mindless of the dark side in Afghanistan: of how, in the chaos after the Russians left, a tank battle took place between two commanders as they both wanted sex with the same boy; how the Taliban murders schoolteachers who seek to give girls an education; how the Taliban's logic acts like a kind of "anti-matter", a black hole that engulfs the western mind. Loyn is clear that much of the "mud" attached to the Taliban can more accurately be applied to the entire Afghan mindset, especially that of the Pashtun heartland: deeply conservative, contemptuous of externally imposed "democracy", unbothered about liberal rights or the education of women. He writes that "the simple narrative of heroes and demons - 'mujahedin good, Taliban bad' - imposed on Afghanistan was another externally drawn picture: an Afghanistan of the western mind". In 2001, a few days after western troops marched into Kabul, some BBC colleagues and I drove up from the south through the Khyber Pass and entered Afghanistan. The people didn't look overjoyed to see us. Near Jalalabad, going in the opposite direction to Dr Brydon on his dying pony, our driver suddenly picked up speed and began to drive murderously fast. We were being chased by the Taliban. A few hours later, four foreign journalists were murdered on the same road, almost certainly by the people who had pursued us. If this was a liberation, it wasn't universally popular, to put it mildly. I remember listening, once we arrived in Kabul, to people like William Reeve, the BBC reporter in Kabul before, during and after the 11 September attacks who got bombed out of his chair by the Americans, got back in it and carried on broadcasting. He said that the Taliban had stopped poppy production, had stopped corrupt roadblocks springing up everywhere, had enforced "sharia" law - and any form of justice is better than the anarchy that flows from gun law. As far as Afghans were concerned, the Taliban weren't as black as they had been painted. The solution for people who have spent a long time in Afghanistan was a different one: to work with the Taliban and somehow to uncouple the Afghan fighters from al-Qaeda. Seven years of killing later, it feels a bit too late to try that now. So, western policy seems glued to fighting a war that many people in the know are now saying the west is never going to win: "We're here because we're here because we're here . . ." Butcher and Bolt challenges such rigidity of thinking. Loyn rubbishes the Americans' supernatural belief in technology above all things, and points out that the Taliban have one and a half million recruits in Pakistan's madrasas, just over the border. It is a bleak conclusion to a book that should be a must-read for every politician who sends our squaddies into Afghanistan - but one based fairly and squarely on the weight of history. John Sweeney is an award-winning investigative journalist From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 12:47:06 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:47:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Still harvesting the fruits of WWII Message-ID: SPIEGEL ONLINE 10/14/2008 05:32 PM UNEXPLODED BOMBS IN GERMANY The Lethal Legacy of World War II By David Crossland in Wünsdorf, Germany Germany remains contaminated with unexploded bombs that are becoming increasingly unstable with age, warns one of the country's most experienced bomb defusers. He has just retired after a perilous career spent tackling the deadly legacy of World War II. Hans-Jürgen Weise, one of Germany's most experienced bomb disposal experts, will never forget his hairiest moment. It was in 1997 in the eastern town of Oranienburg and he was squatting in a hole in the ground trying to defuse a 250 kilogram American World War II aerial bomb that builders had found. Its detonator was so bent that he couldn't unscrew it to make the bomb safe. "I fitted a pneumatic press to tear the detonator out of the bomb remotely. We were 150 meters away and could see what was happening on a TV monitor," Weise, a fit 65-year-old with a ready laugh, told SPIEGEL ONLINE in an interview. "The detonator budged a few centimeters but wouldn’t come any further. "So we decided to detonate the bomb. While everything was being prepared I climbed back down into the pit to retrieve the press from the bomb because those machines cost €20,000," he said. "It was then that I noticed that the detonator had come a bit loose. So I started playing around with it and ended up screwing it out by hand." "You should have seen the goose bumps on my arm! I didn’t think of anything while I was doing it. I could have just waited for it to be detonated. But that’s the ambition of the bomb disposer, I suppose. No one said anything at the time. But looking back on it today they say I was mad. And they were right." Lethal Harvest Each Year Weise retired at the end of September after spending almost four decades clearing munitions from one of the most bomb-contaminated regions in Europe -- the state of Brandenburg surrounding Berlin. In Brandenburg alone, an average of 631 tons of old munitions from the two world wars and from Soviet army exercises in East German times are found every year by builders, bomb location squads or children playing. In the whole of Germany, more than 2,000 tons of American and British aerial bombs and all sorts of munitions ranging from German hand grenades and tank mines to Russian artillery shells are recovered each year. Barely a week goes by without a city street or motorway being cordoned off or even evacuated in Germany due to an unexploded bomb being discovered. Nazi Germany was first to launch massive air raids on civilian targets in World War II with devastating attacks on Warsaw and London. But, it reaped what it sowed as the Allies waged a five-year campaign of aerial bombardment during which they dropped 1.9 million tons of bombs to destroy Germany's industry and crush public morale. The raids killed an estimated 500,000 people. Most estimates for the percentage of unexploded bombs range from 5 to 15 percent -- or between 95,000 and 285,000 tons. As Germany hastily rebuilt its cities after the war, authorities didn’t have the time or the means to locate and dispose of a large part of that tonnage. As a result, a deadly legacy has lain dormant beneath Germany's streets ever since. Daily Callouts "We get two or three calls a day saying a shell or bomb has been found at construction sites or elsewhere," said Weise, who was head of bomb disposal operations for western Brandenburg. In Brandenburg, Weise and his team of around 70 colleagues disposed of 10,733 tonnes of munitions between 1991 and 2007 at a cost of €259 million, a regional government spokesman said. Unearthed munitions that can be transported safely are taken to a detonation ground where they are exploded or have their explosives removed. But many bombs -- and all bombs with delay-action detonators -- are too dangerous to be moved and must be either defused or detonated where they are found. Weise said it will take at least another 20 years before Brandenburg's bombs are cleared, and that the state is particularly contaminated with American delay-action bombs which have become so unstable that it will soon be impossible to defuse them safely. The bombs are on a hair trigger because their chemical detonators have been worn down by acetone vapors as they have lain lurking in the ground for over 60 years. Slumbering Bombs on a Hair-Trigger "In the last few years we’ve found that the detonators we take out of such bombs are increasingly brittle," Weise said. "Recently we’ve had three extracted detonators go off with a pissssh sound while they were being transported away, all it took was a bit of vibration. One day such bombs will be so sensitive that no one will be able to handle them. We may have to stop defusing them as soon as next year." Several people have been in injured in spontaneous bomb explosions in Oranienburg over the years and experts have warned that with the passage of time such detonations are becoming more likely. An estimated 20,000 delay-action bombs were dropped on Oranienburg during the war because it had a suspected atomic bomb research site, the Heinkel aircraft factory and a pharmaceutical plant. They were designed to explode between two and 146 hours after hitting the ground, to disrupt clearing up work and cause chaos. But many failed to go off because Oranienburg has soft soil with a hard layer of gravel underneath. That meant bombs would penetrate the earth, bounce off the gravel and come to rest underground with their tips pointing back upwards. In that position gravity stops the chemical detonators from working. They contain a vial of acetone which bursts on impact and is meant to trickle down and dissolve a celluloid disk that keeps back the cocked firing pin. But when the bomb is pointed upwards, the acetone seeps away from the celluloid, leaving only the vapors to wear the disk down. Weise has defused a total of 394 large bombs in his career including 47 delay action bombs which tend to be the trickiest. Eerie Silence Weise's final mission was in August in the city center of Potsdam, the regional capital of Brandenburg, which came to a standstill after workers found a 250 kilogram British World War II bomb at a construction site. Some 3,000 people were evacuated from the area and the train station was closed as Weise gingerly unscrewing the bomb’s detonator with a wrench. "When you’re on your own in that pit with the bomb in the middle of a city, it’s strange how everything suddenly goes totally quiet,” said Weise. "Sometimes even the birds stop singing. That’s always the point when you feel edgy. After the Potsdam bomb last month I thought, you’ve been lucky so many times, that’s the last one today, now you’ll stop." Weise admits he must have had a lot of luck in his career which started in 1970 when he began helping to locate and transport munitions in what was then communist East Germany. He got his qualification to defuse bombs in 1983. Until his retirement, the wall of his office in the town Wünsdorf south of Berlin was covered with photos of him and members of his team smiling with relief as they stand next to defused bombs hanging from hooks or lying on the ground like trophies from a perilous safari. Weise said he soon lost his fear of bombs but never stopped respecting them. "After I passed my exam and had to defuse my first bomb on my own I did get a bit nervous," he recalled. "Suddenly there was no one behind me telling me what to do. I was totally alone. As you kneel down and apply the wrench you think, 'am I doing this right?' But then I remembered exactly what I'd learned and after that I wasn’t afraid anymore." Weise said British bombs with conventional mechanical detonators were relatively easy to defuse with a wrench because the detonators were made of brass and didn’t rust. Sudden Death "I always say a bit of fear isn’t bad because it makes you careful. But fear can also make you do uncontrolled things. I have respect for every type of munitions because I've seen what can happen," he said. "I saw two men killed on the detonation ground while they were sorting munitions. After you witness something like that it takes you a few weeks before you can go near a bomb again. It keeps you careful." Three bomb disposal workers have died handling munitions at the Brandenburg detonation ground since 1950. But no defusers have been killed. The search for bombs intensified across Germany in the early 1990s after the British and Americans handed over air reconnaissance photos taken after the bombing raids. Holes in the ground amid the craters showed the likely locations of unexploded bombs, sometimes to an accuracy of less than two meters. But the photos can't pinpoint every dud. Bomb disposal teams spent the 1990s searching in high priority locations such as schools, hospital, residential areas and busy streets. While the detonators are decaying underground, the TNT in the bombs isn’t. In 2006 a worker was killed when his bulldozer struck a bomb near a motorway in southern Germany. Eyewitnesses said the explosion tossed the bulldozer through the air like a toy. Search Slowing Due to Shortage of Money Apart from aerial bombs, Weise’s team removes grenades, mines, artillery shells and guns of all types. Brandenburg is so contaminated because it was here that whole German divisions were annihilated in 1945 in last stands against the Soviet armies advancing on Berlin. The state has cleared 12,541 hectares of munitions-infested land, but a further 391,000 hectares, or 1,500 square miles, of contaminated area remain. The proactive searching has slowed down due to a shortage of money, and most bombs these days are found by chance, said Weise. "If one were to search systematically and intensively it wouldn’t take that long to locate all the bombs but the money isn’t there. Politicians have the view that if it’s been lying there for that long, leave it, it won’t hurt anyone, but they start paying attention when something happens," he said. "No new staff are being hired and the experienced ones are coming to retirement age," said Weise. "Our detonation ground is short of staff especially during vacation times." Weise said he definitely won't encourage any of his three grandchildren to follow in his footsteps. "They may not be as lucky as their grandpa was." Weise, who was awarded the German Federal Cross of Merit last year, is looking ahead to retirement with mixed feelings. "I don’t know if I’ll miss the excitement. But suddenly everyone’s running past me when something’s up and it makes you think you’re no longer needed. Taking the photos from the office wall was difficult." Weise, who was born during a World War II air raid when his pregnant mother had to be carried down to a shelter in her bed, said he bears no ill will to the nations that dropped bombs over Germany all those years ago. "It was war and all we’re trying to do is to remove its legacy. But what I don’t understand is that even after all the suffering caused by that war, totally senseless wars have been started over and over again ever since. People just don’t learn.” From cahen.x at levels9.com Sat Oct 25 18:53:38 2008 From: cahen.x at levels9.com (xavier cahen) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:23:38 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 22-10 to 05-10-2008 Message-ID: <49031DDA.4090206@levels9.com> pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ------------------------------------------------------------------- From Wednesday, 22 October 2008 to Wednesday 05 November 2008 (included) @ 001 (22/10/2008) Call: Parc’Art by Night, le Theatre du Meridien, Brussels, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-36052-tit-Appel-Candidature-Parc-Art-by-Night-le -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (23/10/2008) Call: jeune creation video-cinema 2009, Pepinieres europeennes for young artists, Marly le Roi, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36025-tit--jeune-cr-ation-vid-o-cin-ma-2009- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (23/10/2008) Call for participation : Call for sound work, UN SON PAR là, association TSUNAMI, Carré d'Art, Nimes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36048-tit--Call-for-sound-work-UN-SON-PAR-l- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (24/10/2008) Meeting: "Art and public space: the heritage, history and current issues" ( Art et espace public : patrimoine, histoire et enjeux actuels) Study Day, Dijon, 24 October 2008, University Campus Montmuzard, Dijon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35930-tit--Art-et-espace-public-patrimoine- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (24/10/2008) Call for participation: "Becoming-screen", Le Vigan, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36047-tit--Devenir-cran-Le-Vigan- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (24/10/2008) Call fo participation: Parisfx, 2nd edition on 19 and 20 November 2008 at Espace Pierre Cardin, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36049-tit--Parisfx-2nde-dition-les-19-et-20 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (24/10/2008) Call for participation: evening exhib / December 2008 / Contemporary Art, Sos art, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36051-tit--soir-e-expo-D-cembre-2008-Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (25/10/2008) Meetings: Purepresence - randon LaBelle, 25 October 2008, Palais de Tokyo, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36022-tit--Purepresence-Brandon-LaBelle-25 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (25/10/2008) Call: market of intellectual services for the design, development and installation of a work of art, Bernanos Place - District Maurepas in Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36028-tit--March-de-prestations-intellectuelles -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (25/10/2008) Call for participation: Artivistic 2009 // TURN*ON, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36034-tit--Artivistic-2009-TURN-ON-Montreal- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (26/10/2008) Call: Art Campus 2009 - circulation of works of art in public spaces of university sites, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36023-tit--Art-Campus-2009-circulation-d-uvres -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (26/10/2008) Call: ART TECH MEDIA 08, Tenerife. Canary Island, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-36027-tit--ART-TECH-MEDIA-08-Tenerife-Canary -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (26/10/2008) Various: Studio fo rent, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36036-tit-Divers-location-d-atelier-Montreuil- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (26/10/2008) Residencies: l'association L’Atelier 880, Dieppe, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36045-tit--l-association-L-Atelier-880-Dieppe- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (26/10/2008) Call for participation: Call for papers, SIANA 2009, Evry, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36046-tit--appel-communications-Call-for-papers- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (26/10/2008) Call for participation: Simulation scientific and artistic realization: Exploring transdisciplinary arts / sciences, betonsalon, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36050-tit--Simulation-scientifique-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (27/10/2008) Residencies: photographe, Residence Pytheas, Les Ateliers de l’Image, Marseille, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36042-tit--photographe-R-sidence-Pyth-as-Les -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (28/10/2008) Job: Program of artist / professor invited: Practice singular, UQAM, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36039-tit--d-artiste-professeur-invit-Pratique -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (29/10/2008) Residencies : Saint-Jean-Port-Joli, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36026-tit--Saint-Jean-Port-Joli- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (29/10/2008) Call: Galerie (A)SOKO, Brusels, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-36030-tit--Galerie-A-SOKO-Bruxelles- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (29/10/2008) Call for participation : 1st Video Art Festival, Damascus, Syria. http://pourinfos.org/art-36053-tit--1st-Video-Art-Festival-Damascus- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (30/10/2008) Meetings: Human futures: Art in an Age of Uncertainty, Symposium, 30 October 2008, Foundation for Art and Creative Technology, Liverpool, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-36018-tit--Human-futures-Art-in-an-Age-of -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (30/10/2008) Call: WRO 09 EXPANDED CITY XIIIth Media Art Biennale, Fondation WRO Media Art Center, Wroclaw, Poland. http://pourinfos.org/art-36032-tit--WRO-09-EXPANDED-CITY-XIIIth-Media-Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (30/10/2008) Various: Studio fo rent, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36035-tit-Divers-location-d-atelier-Montreuil- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (30/10/2008) Residencies: Photaumnales 2009, Montreuil / Breche, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36044-tit-R-sidence-Photaumnales-2009-Montreuil- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (31/10/2008) Residencies: La Chambre Blanche, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36040-tit-R-sidence-La-Chambre-Blanche-Qu-bec- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (01/11/2008) Residencies : Residence of research in dance, art and science, The National Choreographic Center of Montpellier and Kawenga, Montpellier, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36043-tit--R-sidence-de-recherche-en-danse-art-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (03/11/2008) Meetings: PORTRAIT ANONYMOUS, (PORTRAIT ANONYME) international symposium, 3 & 4 November 2008 at the INHA, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36013-tit--PORTRAIT-ANONYME-colloque-international- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (03/11/2008) Call: 14th edition of the HSBC Foundation for Photography, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36029-tit--14-me-dition-du-concours-de-la-Fondation -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (03/11/2008) Call: 16th Biennale Internationale de l'Image, Nancy, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36033-tit--16-me-Biennale-Internationale-de-l-Image- -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news Direction de la publication Xavier Cahen, webdesign Loz pourinfos.org est une page d’informations diverses et variées sur l'art contemporain, entendez ici, l’art qui se fait aujourd’hui. Cette lettre d’informations est bihmensuelle. Contact humain xavier.cahen at pourinfos.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Sun Oct 26 13:33:07 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:33:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Antarctica: An Artist Dialog Message-ID: <4904243B.4060906@sarai.net> Subject: Antarctica: An Artist Dialog From: Paul Miller Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:01:12 -0400 Hello people - this is an interview for an interesting conference coming up at Columbia University/Barnard College called "Gender on Ice" coming up in November. My film "Terra Nova: Sinfonia Antarctica" and Isaac Julian's film "True North" will be featured. An Interview with Paul D. Miller on his Antarctica film “Terra Nova” by Elena Glasberg, ELENA GLASBERG. Adjunct Associate Professor, Princeton University Terra Nova – Sinfonia Antarctica trailer: http://www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php Elena Glasberg Question: When did Antarctica emerge into your world? Do you recall images? Was it fiction? Or, learning of historic exploration figures? Paul D. Miller Response: I guess some of my most formative film experiences come from early cinema pieces like the two films – Melies ’ s 1902 “ The Conquest of the North ” and the “false” history of Frederick A. Cook’s 1912 “The Truth About the Pole” – I used to watch old films whenever I could, so I’d catch this kind of strange dualism. Like the Lumiere brothers, Cook’s film tried to portray itself as a realistic almost documentary kind of scenario. I usually prefer the other school of though – Melies started out as a magaician who wanted to apply magic technique to film. The two films are about the opposite side of the planet from Antarctica, but they’re both amazingly, eerily prescient about how discovery and the “voyager’s path” would then take on almost surreal proportions. That’s a similar motif for my “Terra Nova” and “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” projects. They both use found footage, print-design, and propaganda to show how exploration at the edge of the world is a prism to view how nations look at one another, and how art itself is a highly politicized medium. I guess you could say I’m inspired as much by Jules Verne as I am by the exploration of the film “90 Degrees South” by cinematographer Herbert G. Ponting, who was one of the first people to get footage from Antarctica. Elena Glasberg Question: Your work engages in and emerges through tropes and modes of globalism, the internet specifically. Yet you also dj for live audiences. How does Antarctica figure within your view of a global audience? Paul D. Miller Response: For me, music isn't music - it's information. So much of my work comes from the hard learned truth that collage speaks across many borders, cultures, and yes, economic classes: if you want to deal with hip hop and then give a lecture at places like Yale or Harvard, you really have to be prepared to speak in academic pidgin as much as be able to flow in the club scene etc. I never really thought of myself as “separate” from the normal art and academic works that I create. My books, art shows, and exhibitions are driven by the obsession I have with saying that multi-culturalism, market forces, and the basic fabric of “The Enlightenment” are interconnected. One of my favorite recent books “Capital and Language” by Christian Marazzi - you can look at people like him and his concept of new forms of “hoarding” as a way to engage some kind of logic of culturally produced “value.” I always am astounded at how little the artworld understands the kind of cultural economy that dj culture emerges from. Nothing, after Wagner’s concept of “gesamkunstwerk” exists in a vacuum: whether our culture is now taken from youtube.com videos or material posted online from cell phones by soldier’s in Iraq, we exist in a world where “documents” act as a kind of testimony. But once something is recorded, it’s basically a file waiting to be manipulated. That’s what links the concept of the remix to everything going on these days – truth itself is a remix. Anyway, it’s all about a new kind of relativism. Elena Glasberg Question: What do you think of Vaughan-Williams’ Sinfonia Antartica, as music and as an historical artifact of an Antarctic vision? Paul D. Miller Response: Vaughn Williams, it’s well documented, was pre-occupied with the concept with the “end of empire” and the end of World War II. I really think that’s when the concept of the British Empire and Commonwealth needed to be re-examined, and if you look at the Indian liberation project of Ghandi and Indian independence in 1947, that kind of stuff must have really been foremost on the mind of the generation of composers that needed to give the British something to think about after the war as a way of looking forward to reconstruction. What had the war been about except imperial ambition! By making Robert Scott, someone who had died in service to the Empire, the film “Scott of the Antarctic” really set the tone for how the twilight of the British Empire needed to look for new heroes. Let’s not forget that the first composition to really engage Antarctica started as a soundtrack for Vaughn'’s score to the film. I enjoy playing with the concept of music as a mirror we hold up to society – the Vaughn soundtrack, like the original music composed by Joseph Carl Breil for D.W. Griffith’s film “Birth of a Nation” - was a pastiche of themes and motifs that would speak to a film audience. I wanted to update the same concept with turntables and digital media. I really don’t think of music, film, and art as separate. There is a seamless connection – it’s the creative mind at work. Elena Glasberg Question: I’m interested that you actually went to a part of the Antarctic – I’m assuming the peninsula, by boat from South America. How did your conception of Antarctica as a place interact with your embodied presence? What was the most surprising aspect of being in Antarctica? Paul D. Miller Response: I went to several islands, and ice fields that were near the Antarctic peninsula but a little further down on the continent. I’ll be going back in a while to check out more of the interior. We chartered a Russian ice breaker called “The Academic Ioffe” and the next time I go, I’m going to try and get to the Lake Vostok base. The most surprising thing about Antarctica was the stench of penguin shit. You can smell them a mile or so out in the water!!! I’m always “embodied” (I always tend to mix that up with “embedded” these days anyway), so there’s no conflicted sense of spatial issues that seems to haunt a lot of the discourse about what physical performance is all about in a digital context. I live and remember it all. The idea of the “journey” if you look at Melies film “The Conquest of the North” from 1912, is still with us. It’s now just “hyper-realism.” Elena Glasberg Question: Do you think people belong in Antarctica? Paul D. Miller Response: No Elena Glasberg Question: Why do people need to /hear/ Antarctica? How does this mode distinguish itself from seeing Antarctica, which has been the overwhelming mode since the turn of the last century and the accident of near simultaneous advent of film photography and embodied access to the inner continent? How do you see your mixed modes of approach – embodiment and digitized representation - in the context of the history of representing the (arguably) most mediated place on earth? Paul D. Miller Response: Everything is I do is about paradox. It makes life fun. I think that people need to “HEAR” Antarctica because it is at the edge of the world. The idea of “mixed modes of approach” is a good term (of course, the dominant theme in dj culture is “the mix” so there’s some salient linkage there … ). The technical terms “heterodoxy” or “heterogeneity” both find a solid home in me and my work. I celebrate that kind of thing. One day, the software we use and the life we live will blur. It'’s kind of already happened. But that’s why I go to places like Antarctica. NY is probably one of the most mediated places on earth. If I have a conversation at a café, someone will put it on a blog. If I walk down the street, someone puts photos of it on flickr. It’s irritating, but hey… it’s the way we live now. Antarctica represents a place mediated by science – it’s literally almost another world. Some of my favorite science fiction writers like Kim Stanley Robinson’s “Antarctica” or Crawford Kilian’s “IceQuake” who deal with Antarctica come up with some of the same themes: science, art and the weirdly un-worldliness of the ice terrain. I think of that kind of stuff as an update of the speculative visions of Verne that inspired Melies with his earlier films. My film “Terra Nova” and my gallery show “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” are in the same tradition. Music from the edge of the physical environment and music from the core of the urban landscape. Watch them collide in paradox. Elena Glasberg Question: You work among a wide variety of audiences, purposefully and joyously erupting into places not usually associated (variously) with dj culture, beats, aural sophistication, and academic-style intellectualization. Where do you place Antarctica within your work and audience. Paul D. Miller Response: I have a degree of comfort with new places that makes life in this hyper turblulent and digitally abstract contemporary life. Life is hybrid and always has been. It’s just that digital media is making us realize that it’s not about the “end of Western culture” because of multi-culturalism etc It’s actually giving Western culture a place in whatever else has been going on. Which is healthy… I just roll with it all. Edward Said’s critique of Western classical music as a kind of involuted “samizdat” (as above, so below…), rings true for my work. I really think that the distinctions that defined most of the 20 ^th century are almost gone. Technology has moved far more quickly to transform our social structures than anyone could have anticipated. Dj culture accepts this and celebrates this kind of phenomenon precisely because it’s not linked to the production of objects – it’s obsessed with continuous transformation, and that’s where I live. In total flux. Elena Glasberg Question: You are intrigued by Antarctica’s geopolitical exception – its lack of indigenous and its never-nationalized status now under the 1959 Antarctic Treaty System. I see this reflected in your playful echo of the title of a 1981 novel by John Calvin Bachelor, /The People’s Republic of Antarctica/ , in your marvelous poster series. How do you see Antarctica -- as an exception to global politics? A demonstration of alternative possibilities to history? An opportunity for fantasy? What vision of propaganda and history inspired the poster series? Paul D. Miller Response: If you look at the 20 ^th century advertising, as Sigmund Freud’s nephew Edward Bernays, who coined the term “public relations,” was the hidden architecture holding both capitalism and communism together. Everyone had to get their message out! Whether it was Stalin who said that “engineers are poets of the soul” or Chairman Mao, who put teachers in chains and paraded them as false prophets, the kind of “stay on message” type ethos dominated the media discourse of every nation. With my “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” print design projects and my film projects – I simply ask the question: what if the nation state went away? What centrifuge would we all then call home? What would be the point of looking at the state as a kind of generative architecture? Would who be commissioning the designs, who would be fostering the arts? The answer: corporations. I use the ironic motif of stuff like the British East India company or some of the ways that we have corporate sponsorship of exploration/high endurance sports etc as examples. If you look at Rodchenko’s designs or Malevich’s early minimalism, you can see an echo of that in my work – the revolution for the U.S. after the fall of the Berlin Wall was untrammeled capitalism. Look around and see what it’s done for us! The only competing ideology at this point is radical Islam. I’m not so sure that people would like to embrace Sharia economics, but if they look at the Middle East, there’s lots of solid banking going on (unlike Wall street this week). I guess you could say that my work is kind of an aesthetic futures market where any sound can be you. That’s what sampling is about. The Terra Nova and Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica projects are mirrors held up to a world that is melting. I don’t know about you, but I think it’s a pretty strange mirror to see oneself in. I read John Calvin Bathelor’s book and enjoyed it, but aside from “sampling” the title (I do this a lot!), there’s not much of a connection – except that his book is a meditation on the end of norms of governance. Elena Glasberg Question: How are you creating the sounds of Antarctica? What is the technical process and how does it reflect Antarctic representation, its challenges, and its history? Paul D. Miller Response: My gallery installation at Robert Miller Gallery and Irvine Fine Arts is loosely based on the “false” story of Frederick A. Cook – who went North. “The Truth about the Pole” (1912) was a self-promotional docudrama in which producer Frederick A. Cook sought to have himself treated as a heroic adventurer who discovered the North Pole, a claim he'd been making since 1909. No director wanted credit for making it. Cook plays the starring role as himself. There is at least one appealing set that attempts to be naturalistic, showing a frozen ship in the distant background. Mostly it all looks pretty hooky. It's interesting how little one needs for a quick jaunt to the Pole, a log-book, sled, & American flag being the whole of it. All one requires to recover from such an easy stroll is a nice wooden hut & one sip of coffee from a tin cup. A silent film villain, Harry Whitney, is the evil scoundrel who started the rumor that Cook's former claim to have climbed Mt McKinley was a fabrication. This was (according to the revisions proposed by his film) Whitney's newest salvo in a campaign to make Cook's polar expedition appear to have been a hoax. I think it’s hilarious – I repurpose this kind of thing, and flip it into Southern perspective. Who owns the ice? Who owns the memory of the ice? My composition for the installation at the galleries is based on gamelan music from the idea of “shadow theater” mixed with string arrangements taken from my score to Terra Nova. Debussy after all, was inspired by gamelan, and I guess you could say ambient electronic music is about as “impressionist” composition as you can get. I like the idea of ambiguity. It keeps you on your feet, makes you think about paradox and the digital world of relativity we live in today. When I went to Antarctica I wanted to have a place where there was essentially a fresh perspective and where I really needed to think about how I would interact with the environment in a way that would free up some of the issues that drive normal hip hop. The sounds in my projects come from nature – wind, water, the noise of feet walking on ice… my project takes those sounds and uses them as an acoustic palette. I mixed and remixed the material to the point that bass lines come from wind and water movement, and the sound of human breath can be a motif made into some kind of strange pattern. The score for “Terra Nova” was written in a much more conventional way, but that’s why I like to say I’m into paradox. You could almost say that the score for Terra Nova is neo-Baroque, just on the edge of when everyone thought that the Age of Reason had dealt a death blow to superstition in Europe. Try telling that to Sarah Palin! I guess you could say that my project is about the “sound of science.” Elena Glasberg Question: I’m struck by the influence of Gore’s documentary /An Inconvenient Truth/ on subsequent representation of the Antarctic. I’m thinking in particular of all the computer graphic simulations of melting ice sheets in a pristine and remote Antarctic and the resultant rises in sea levels of very well known urban locations. Do you see your work in such a context of politicized – or catastrophic - simulation? Paul D. Miller Response: I’m a big Paul Virilio fan…. Let’s call Terra Nova in terms of theory speak (it’s just a different pidgin language after all): trajectories of the catastrophic, or pure war. Antarctica isn’t a place: it’s a location. It’s kind of like saying Buddhism isn’t a religion: it’s a philosophy. Everyone knows that, but they still get it wrong. I always try to get people to think about conceptual frames of reference: context is important in my work, and so is content. How do you establish an uneasy tension between context and content when everything can be remixed and changed, and there’s no final “version” of anything? In my film “Terra Nova” that kind of graphic design imprint is crucial to how the story is told. If you look at the old Terra Nova expedition of Robert Scott, you can only think: wouldn’t it have been great if they had satellite footage to tell them they weren’t that deep into the ice, and to compare some different routes to get out of the drift their ship was caught in. Stuff like Apsley Cherry Garrad’s infamous “The Worst Journey in The World” where he says “Polar exploration is at once the cleanest and most isolated way of having a bad time that has ever been devised,” is one of the most succinct ways one could put this simple observation. Melting ice sheets look cool, but then again, so do solar flares on the surface of the sun. They’re both harmful… but hey.. art makes things look cool. Elena Glasberg Question: Your film will be debuting at the democratic convention in August. How exciting. Obama will presumably see it. What would you like him to see, to respond to, and to promote in his election platform (and possible administration)? Paul D. Miller Response: I really think it’s time to say goodbye to the 20 ^th century. So yes, the Obama convention with Dialog City as the focal point for the contemporary art scene was a breath of fresh air for me. I really liked premiering my film at the Denver Opera House. The Colorado art scene is a lot more progressive than NY! I think Obama will probably be one of the greenest presidents since Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the White House. The Republicans went crazy, but in hindsight, it was really really really cool. I like stuff like that – that’s why I premiered Terra Nova at the Democrats convention.I think of Terra Nova as a reflection site – a location for the politics of perception that we use to look at the environment. Elena Glasberg Question: Antarctica and in particular the South Pole have been fantasy objects for US and European imperialism since the early 1900s. Authors populated the unknown south with wishful fantasies of lost races, arable lands, and mineral wealth. Postcolonial nations such as Argentina, Chile, and even Malaysia have fought and argued to be included among the arbiters of Antarctica’s possible riches. How do you negotiate nationalism and the history of imperialism in your own approach to the territory? Paul D. Miller Response: You really have to think about Antarctica as a “possible terrain” – it’s a surface we project on, but it doesn’t reflect us back. I always think of the phrase Bruce Sterling says: the suicide bomber is the poor mans cruise missile. There’s always going to be conflict over resources as long as people think everything is completely limited. The weird thing about the 21 ^st century is that we have perspective. That’s something the warring empires of the past didn’t. We have history, comparative science, and above all, a sense of urgency with regard to global warming. And guess what – we still can’t get it together. Some of the best recent films dealing with Antarctica: Werner Herzog’s “Encounters at The End of The World” or the anti-whaling film “At the Edge of the World” both have this kind of “rebel/misfit scientist” take on the expatriate community that lives in Antarctica. The cracks in the mirror are where some of the best images are to be found. Antarctica, for me, is just a really big crack in the way we look at the land claims of the “great nations” – I really think that my film project is a cinema-scape in the same tradition of Nam Jun Paik, John Cage’s “Imaginary Landscape” or Edgar Varese and Scriabin’s visual essays turned into sound. Imperialism is such a concrete process: take the land, brainwash the natives, make the people back home think it’s all being done in their name… The problem with the 21 ^st century for that kind of schemata is that no one really believes it any more. It’s just one fiction of many. I tend to think that that’s a good thing. It’s time for a fresh kaleidoscope! We need more paradox than we can possibly know right now. And Antarctica is the place to manifest that kind of paradox. After all, it’s the end of the world. I want us to look over the edge… Elena Glasberg Question: The majority of people on earth will never come near Antarctica. How do you want them to think of their relation to this remote and highly mediated territory? Do you feel that you’re operating with a (excuse the phrase) blank screen, or do preconceptions of the region cloud collective action? Paul D. Miller Response: How do people hear Antarctica? It’s a question that lingers over this interview. Unmoored, unleashed, free floating - sampling derives it's sense of free cut and paste aesthetics from the interplay of the kind of "rip, mix, and burn" scenario of the 21st century's information economy. But there are so many cultural resonances that kick in when we think about "appropriation art." I love to throw in allusions and word play – it mirrors what I do with sound, so excuse the aside: In 1964 Ralph Ellison, one of my favorite writers, read a statement at the Library Of Congress about the possibility of an artform made of fragments. The lecture was called "Hidden Name and Complex Fate" and basically it was a manifesto about a series of poems and music that was made into a "mix" of music that influenced him. It was kind of a "sonic memorial" made of fragments from artists and composers as diverse as Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Bessie Smith, Mahalia Jackson - but the selection was meant to be a literary scenario that evoked music as a kind of text. Of the jazz legends he invoked in his discussion, he simply wrote that "the end of all this discipline and technical mastery was the desire to express an affirmative way of life through its musical tradition... Life could be harsh, loud and wrong if it wished, but they lived it fully, and when they expressed their attitude toward the world it was with a fluid style that reduced the chaos of living to form." As an artist, writer, and musician, this kind of hybridity is something that drives my work. I'm inspired by the destruction of old, boring, ways of thinking and feeling, by the casting into the flames of obsolence all the stupid old categories that people use to hold the world back from the interplay of uncontrolled "mixing." Yeah, I say - we need to mix and remix everything. There is no final version of anything once it's digital. Is this a mirror we can hold up to society in the era of information overload? Dj mixes, freeware, open source media... yeah - they say it is possible. Antarctica is a realm of possibility because put simply, very few people are aware of its story. That in itself is a rare and elusive quality that the beginning of the 21 ^st century has brought front and center into modern perspective: there’s strength in invisibility. You have to think of the landscape and the way artists interact with it. John Cage’s “Imaginary Landscape” from 1939 was composed of records playing frequencies. But if you fast forward to his composition “In a Landscape” from 1948, you can easily see early taste for percussion instruments and "found sounds," as well as his interest in embedded, recursive rhythmic structures, while the last two of the series, composed in 1951 and 1952, exhibit the influences of Cage's experiments with various kinds of pre-compositional chance operations. I think that is what resonates with Antarctica for me: the space to be sonically free. After all: it’s the only place on Earth with no government. What’s the soundtrack to that? Elena Glasberg Question: Most reporting on Antarctica these days tends toward the catastrophic: ice melting, penguins starving, and now oil prices so high that scientific research programs themselves are financially threatened with extinction. What’s your main message amid this noise? And what if, anything, do you think is the greatest threat to Antarctica directly? To the globe more generally? Paul D. Miller Response: See above! From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 13:41:40 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:41:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: 27 Oct Statue Protest @ National Museum Message-ID: Nagorik Samaj, a broad coalition of individuals and organizations who believe in freedom of expression and thought will stand outside the National Museum on Sunday 27 October from 4 to 5 pm. They will silently protest the order to demolish the statue outside the airport at the behest of some madrassah students and threats from the IOJ chief to demolish all statues in Bangladesh. This is a threat to cultural freedom and we invite you to join the human chain with your friends and associates. - Hameeda Hossain, on behalf of Nagorik Samaj From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 15:04:30 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:04:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <6353c690810251208n1d3fb5fay3836825bc5f9dbe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690810251208n1d3fb5fay3836825bc5f9dbe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73eb60090810260234i15565edem8bdd9788667e6182@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya I will only respond to your phrase "Till such people continue their ill mannered approach....." Look, if you are waiting for some change to come about in people's behavior by your mails, forget it. As I had mentioned in my mail, we have come to a complete roadblock as far as having any dialogue between KPs and the rest of the people is concerned. Neither you can change our opinion nor can we (non-KPs) change yours. But in fact we are not even trying to change your viewpoints. We are simply trying to discuss normal topics that touch all our lives. But you continue to harp upon something which is not going to change. Most of us are not even great decision makers or movers of this world, so that we could benefit you because of your condition. If you want to bring some change in the condition of Kashmiri Pandits then please go to the right places. This is a wrong place to bang your head - its hurting you, and its hurting us for no reason. If you want to raise some money to help the suffering of the Kashmiri pundits, please say so. I am sure everyone on this list will contribute something, maybe to start a school or a clinic. I can imagine that there is a good side to every human being - you folks are also nice people at the end of the day, but by banging your head again and again you are making an impression that you are bad people. If you want to even have a fruitful dialogue, then why don't you arrange a real, physical meeting where we discuss how can we mutually solve our problems. Online discussions like this are wasting your time and ours, with no solution in sight. Following the Sarai reader's list has become an extremely stressful excersice. In fact if anybody is reading all the mails being posted here must have either joined a mental asylum or nirvana. I am on my way to a psychiatrist any way. I am serious about this. Please have mercy on us. K.Singh On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:38 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Kirdar, > > I understand your concern and apologise if my long e-mails have been > troubling your inbox on and off; but do I really have an option ? If people > continue to diplomatically or indirectly abuse my community; and also defend > a terrorist who is responsible for the exodus of an entire community; How > can I stay mum ? > > I'm sorry, but I can't be a mute spectator to this propaganda. Till such > people continue their ill mannered and negative approach towards Kashmiri > Pandit Community and the ethnic cleansing faced by them; things can't stop > easily. It is sad but true. > > I object to your sudden example of Kashmiri Pandits coming to some function > in Chinmaya Auditorium and driving and parking their limousine like cars. > This isn't true; till the best of my knowledge. It is just another rumour > spread by one of these propagandist elements here. Could you share your > source or some proof to back your borrowed 'imaginative story' ? > > Also, Yes, Kashmiri Pandits are starving; for your information. Kindly visit > Jammu camps and see first hand how more than 50,000 Pandits are languishing > in animal-like state. It is just pathetic situation. Worse is the air > pollution which emits from the nearby brick kilns. There is a rise in > cancer, asthma, diabetes and other worse diseases and ailments. > > As regard to questions raised by my dear Karim sahab. I don't know what to > say ? How does he know we were born and brought up outside Kashmir ? I at > least was born in the valley. Most other Pandits being elder to me were well > settled in the valley and had been living their since their birth. I along > with all my RIK members have visited and lived with my brothers in Muthi, > Mishriwala and other camp and non-camp areas, Rather, one of my best friend > Sunil Bhat belongs to Muthi Camp - Phase -1. Panun Kashmir has been running > mid-day meals, education training and medical camps on a day to day basis in > these camps. Apart from that RIK and other initiatives have been helping and > assisting people there from time to time, mostly for education and their > medical aid. > > I didn't have to answer all those imaginary claims but, I didn't want you to > live with wrong information collected from some sleeping source. > > And, Lastly, Kirdar, if you are bored, you are WELCOME TO UNSUBSCRIBE at any > moment of time. We need not learn from you, what and how to do things. You > may kindly keep the advice with yourself and aleep. > > You are free to discuss any sane topic you feel like. I haven't forced you > to keep your hands tied. You are free to do anything here. > > Lastly, It is people like terrorist Yasin Malik who roam around in > limousine's and live in 5-star accommodation. Madam Sonia Jabbar can explain > with more clarity where those funds and assistance come from; as she is very > close to this terrorist Godfather. > > Its strange. Kashmiri Pandits seem to be a problem o you Kirdar. But, not a > terrorist Yasin Malik ? > > Wah !! > > > > On 10/26/08, karimnanvore karim wrote: >> >> Dear Friends >> >> The kashmiri pandits writing in this group belong to a secton of Kashmiris >> who were born and brought up in urban settings in kashmir and have never >> been exposed to the realities of life. How many of them have been to Mutthi >> Camp in Jammu or to the slum like shelters where Kashmiri Pandits from >> Rural >> Kashmir are stayin in and around Delhi. These Panun Kashmir, roots in >> Kashmir Shops are being run on the hopes and aspirations of common Kashmiri >> Pandits who have been living in miserable conditions in such camps. >> It will be interesting to know how many of Panun Kashmiris, Roots in >> Kashmir >> are running schools in such slums or hospitals or have made arrangements >> for >> the education of these pandits in the form of scholarships. I Guess the >> group will be interested in knowing that aspect of Such organizations! >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kirdar wrote: >> >> > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, >> > honestly. >> > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and >> > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life >> > moves on, yaar. >> > >> > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, >> > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living >> > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of >> > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present >> > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you >> > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above >> > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? >> > >> > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference >> > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya >> > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came >> > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no >> > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? >> > >> > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the >> > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are >> > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any >> > other sane topic on this list. >> > >> > So, please get the hell out of here. >> > >> > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody >> > please write my obituary on Sarai) >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > > Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India > Cell - +91-9873297834 > > Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ > Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From raja_starkglass at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 15:11:14 2008 From: raja_starkglass at yahoo.com (rajendra bhat) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:11:14 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 151, Da indi code, operation evangelism. Message-ID: <641380.433.qm@web94916.mail.in2.yahoo.com> This is purely a work of imaginations of looney moron but all the facts written are true and derived from the society that this moron lives in.    Bishops conference in Delhi.  It was solemn occassion. pope had okayed the sainthood for the Kerala sister Alfonso. Sister Abhayas' murder case in the seminary by the priest and nun was in the control mode of madam with CBI fudging the two reports of forensic lab, high court judge being assured of the promotion of elevation to supreme court, was slowly but steadily coming in line.   Now more important was the general elections in the country, decaying oldest party has had to do some emotional issue to rake up the communal passions and then the publicity would be effectively handled by the friendly journalist fraternity, some of whom were already awarded the awards of padmashri, some were released with ads from the national exchequer to see that media bosses were fully co-operative to side line the "communal" BJP., and bash the leadership of BJP also. The action taken to appease hindu votes with raids in Jamianagar had backfired and that idiot Amar singh had messed it up with "intellectuals" breifed to be only dramatic had overdid the drama.That idiot Gulam nabi azad was told specifically to be careful to involve Mehbooba in announcing the lands for yatris, but that idiot had gone overboard and made mess of that also.. If that issue of 100 hectares of land "giving " had gone off smoothly, hindu votes in the rest of the nation would be big boost for the oldest party and BJP would have totally lost face as temple they had not been able to put in Ayodhya,was already working against their votes, thus they had let down the core votes of hindus.  Rahul has been asked to more active in mayanagari of uttarpradesh as madam can not be risked to move against maya, the most unpredictable leader of masses.     Oldest party has had track record of sidelining its popular leaders and loosing them to accidents right after 1969.First it was Shastri who met with poisonous death in Tashket thanks to KGB co-operation. indira had to control her son, who was becoming more popular, so accident it was for sanjay.Devaraj urs had given new life for Indira, but he was growing too big for his shoes, so another fatal dose of insulin by accident. rajesh and Scindia were now leaders with their own mass bases, something had to be done, so accidents do not happen, they are caused.    The group from Kerala had been the think tank of oldest party, but some had liking only for indirect violence, never direct involvement, so much sophistication come from only drinking salt water of gods own land.? Ofcourse the systematic buildup of support bases with those with christian spouses was complete and "inetellectuals' now left out by left had assured total help in deciphering    DA INDI CODE. Ravi , slaman and ajit had no issues in siding with madam, but the maharashtra strong man was secretive, with sugar lobby and pratibhas talent in the pool, controlling this pawar was not an issue,, but to tackle the pride was an issue in marati. That the emotional dravidians could be easily held captive, because which ever be the party all that they would need is contracts to dredge the ocean, kickbacks in spectrum allocations and pie in power.Problem was in Karnataka with so many commune factions, the kurubas sulking for their leader siddhu, shivakumar acting for gowdas,lingayaths now deserting the oldest party was real headache and veerappa and poojary with loose talks did not help much to consolidate vote base.. margaret has been loosing along with these two consistently all the elections and catholic votes were slowly but steadily drifting towards the r BJP and Janatha parivars. That sangliana has promised to be true christian only after recieving the full amount and not before., was to be tackled on priority.Bishop moras promised to attend to these issues.   At this stage Bishop dsouza took out the blue print of DA INDI CODE JUST RECIEVED FROM HIGH COMMAND , highest body of german origin, Oscar had brought it when he went for the occassion of secular nation representing labour of the secular nation with secular christians representing secular nation. Plan was looking very complicated but actually was simple, it was hitting two birds with one stone, left which had ruined the oldest party by not only barking but now biting in the N-deal, had to be curtailed, so attack would be with lots of money to maoists, all killings would be done by maoists for a price. left had to keep quiet as they need them for their works also. The operation would start from southern states with attacks on prayer halls and arrogant idiots in bhajrang dal would claim the credit for attack,siiting thousand miles away, who shall be immediately neutralised by arrests   Orissa could be bit difficult, as the patnaik, western educated had clean good image, so threat of art.356 had to be used in correct measure. But a rape and few killings would help as new life and new hope had pumped enough money for the benefit of the christian rule, figures of population has been kept fudged at 2 percent with new converts have been asked to continue with their old names so that numbers would be realistic  to evoke enough sympathy factor.?   That idiot, cunning pawar did something we bishops did not foresee, he has joined forces with junior beast of thackeray, and this lalu and paswan who are beasts themselves made things more difficult now as BJP will demand art. 356 in allied states also for law and order. be that may be, now we have to use the occassion to malign the BJP, catch some sadvis, police in maharashtra have agreed to co-operate for the next posting to CBI as directors and positions in plum posts, thanks to periera and reiberos.Any ways now that Uma is with us to hit at BJP, the job of change of perception of BJP will be much easier, we will attack advani and his secular trip to pakistan, violence of hindu terror and hindu votes will be scattered away from BJP and we will win and rule again. Even as safety net, we have our usual allies who are with us for power pie, lalu, paswan and only Mulayam is to be this time marginalised after an accident to amarsingh!  Confidential and secret Madam has given a sphinx smile, so plan is approved... ----- Original Message ---- From: "reader-list-request at sarai.net" To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 26 October, 2008 1:26:23 PM Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 151 Send reader-list mailing list submissions to     reader-list at sarai.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     reader-list-request at sarai.net You can reach the person managing the list at     reader-list-owner at sarai.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." Today's Topics:   1. [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 22-10 to    05-10-2008       (xavier cahen)   2. Fwd: Antarctica: An Artist Dialog (Iram Ghufran) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:23:38 +0200 From: xavier cahen Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] pourinfos Newsletter / 22-10 to     05-10-2008 To: "Liste Sarai.Net" Message-ID: <49031DDA.4090206 at levels9.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news ------------------------------------------------------------------- From Wednesday, 22 October 2008 to Wednesday 05 November 2008 (included) @ 001 (22/10/2008) Call: Parc’Art by Night, le Theatre du Meridien, Brussels, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-36052-tit-Appel-Candidature-Parc-Art-by-Night-le -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 002 (23/10/2008) Call: jeune creation video-cinema 2009, Pepinieres europeennes for young artists, Marly le Roi, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36025-tit--jeune-cr-ation-vid-o-cin-ma-2009- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 003 (23/10/2008) Call for participation : Call for sound work, UN SON PAR là, association TSUNAMI, Carré d'Art, Nimes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36048-tit--Call-for-sound-work-UN-SON-PAR-l- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 004 (24/10/2008) Meeting: "Art and public space: the heritage, history and current issues" ( Art et espace public : patrimoine, histoire et enjeux actuels) Study Day, Dijon, 24 October 2008, University Campus Montmuzard, Dijon, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-35930-tit--Art-et-espace-public-patrimoine- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 005 (24/10/2008) Call for participation: "Becoming-screen", Le Vigan, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36047-tit--Devenir-cran-Le-Vigan- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 006 (24/10/2008) Call fo participation: Parisfx, 2nd edition on 19 and 20 November 2008 at Espace Pierre Cardin, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36049-tit--Parisfx-2nde-dition-les-19-et-20 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 007 (24/10/2008) Call for participation: evening exhib / December 2008 / Contemporary Art, Sos art, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36051-tit--soir-e-expo-D-cembre-2008-Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 008 (25/10/2008) Meetings: Purepresence - randon LaBelle, 25 October 2008, Palais de Tokyo, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36022-tit--Purepresence-Brandon-LaBelle-25 -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 009 (25/10/2008) Call: market of intellectual services for the design, development and installation of a work of art, Bernanos Place - District Maurepas in Rennes, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36028-tit--March-de-prestations-intellectuelles -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 010 (25/10/2008) Call for participation: Artivistic 2009 // TURN*ON, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36034-tit--Artivistic-2009-TURN-ON-Montreal- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 011 (26/10/2008) Call: Art Campus 2009 - circulation of works of art in public spaces of university sites, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36023-tit--Art-Campus-2009-circulation-d-uvres -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 012 (26/10/2008) Call: ART TECH MEDIA 08, Tenerife. Canary Island, Spain. http://pourinfos.org/art-36027-tit--ART-TECH-MEDIA-08-Tenerife-Canary -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 013 (26/10/2008) Various: Studio fo rent, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36036-tit-Divers-location-d-atelier-Montreuil- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 014 (26/10/2008) Residencies: l'association L’Atelier 880, Dieppe, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36045-tit--l-association-L-Atelier-880-Dieppe- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 015 (26/10/2008) Call for participation: Call for papers, SIANA 2009, Evry, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36046-tit--appel-communications-Call-for-papers- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 016 (26/10/2008) Call for participation: Simulation scientific and artistic realization: Exploring transdisciplinary arts / sciences, betonsalon, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36050-tit--Simulation-scientifique-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 017 (27/10/2008) Residencies: photographe, Residence Pytheas, Les Ateliers de l’Image, Marseille, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36042-tit--photographe-R-sidence-Pyth-as-Les -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 018 (28/10/2008) Job: Program of artist / professor invited: Practice singular, UQAM, Montreal, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36039-tit--d-artiste-professeur-invit-Pratique -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 019 (29/10/2008) Residencies : Saint-Jean-Port-Joli, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36026-tit--Saint-Jean-Port-Joli- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 020 (29/10/2008) Call: Galerie (A)SOKO, Brusels, Belgium. http://pourinfos.org/art-36030-tit--Galerie-A-SOKO-Bruxelles- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 021 (29/10/2008) Call for participation : 1st Video Art Festival, Damascus, Syria. http://pourinfos.org/art-36053-tit--1st-Video-Art-Festival-Damascus- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 022 (30/10/2008) Meetings: Human futures: Art in an Age of Uncertainty, Symposium, 30 October 2008, Foundation for Art and Creative Technology, Liverpool, United Kingdom. http://pourinfos.org/art-36018-tit--Human-futures-Art-in-an-Age-of -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 023 (30/10/2008) Call: WRO 09 EXPANDED CITY XIIIth Media Art Biennale, Fondation WRO Media Art Center, Wroclaw, Poland. http://pourinfos.org/art-36032-tit--WRO-09-EXPANDED-CITY-XIIIth-Media-Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 024 (30/10/2008) Various: Studio fo rent, Montreuil, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36035-tit-Divers-location-d-atelier-Montreuil- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 025 (30/10/2008) Residencies: Photaumnales 2009, Montreuil / Breche, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36044-tit-R-sidence-Photaumnales-2009-Montreuil- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 026 (31/10/2008) Residencies: La Chambre Blanche, Quebec, Canada. http://pourinfos.org/art-36040-tit-R-sidence-La-Chambre-Blanche-Qu-bec- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 027 (01/11/2008) Residencies : Residence of research in dance, art and science, The National Choreographic Center of Montpellier and Kawenga, Montpellier, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36043-tit--R-sidence-de-recherche-en-danse-art-et -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 028 (03/11/2008) Meetings: PORTRAIT ANONYMOUS, (PORTRAIT ANONYME) international symposium, 3 & 4 November 2008 at the INHA, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36013-tit--PORTRAIT-ANONYME-colloque-international- -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 029 (03/11/2008) Call: 14th edition of the HSBC Foundation for Photography, Paris, France. http://pourinfos.org/art-36029-tit--14-me-dition-du-concours-de-la-Fondation -------------------------------------------------------------------- @ 030 (03/11/2008) Call: 16th Biennale Internationale de l'Image, Nancy, France. http://pourinfos..org/art-36033-tit--16-me-Biennale-Internationale-de-l-Image- -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://pourinfos.org l'actualité du monde de l'art / daily Art news Direction de la publication Xavier Cahen, webdesign Loz pourinfos.org est une page d’informations diverses et variées sur l'art contemporain, entendez ici, l’art qui se fait aujourd’hui. Cette lettre d’informations est bihmensuelle. Contact humain xavier.cahen at pourinfos.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:33:07 +0530 From: Iram Ghufran Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Antarctica: An Artist Dialog To: sarai list Message-ID: <4904243B.4060906 at sarai.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Subject: Antarctica: An Artist Dialog From: Paul Miller Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:01:12 -0400 Hello people - this is an interview for an interesting conference coming up at Columbia University/Barnard College called "Gender on Ice" coming up in November. My film "Terra Nova: Sinfonia Antarctica" and Isaac Julian's film "True North" will be featured. An Interview with Paul D. Miller on his Antarctica film “Terra Nova” by Elena Glasberg, ELENA GLASBERG. Adjunct Associate Professor, Princeton University Terra Nova – Sinfonia Antarctica trailer: http://www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php Elena Glasberg Question: When did Antarctica emerge into your world? Do you recall images? Was it fiction? Or, learning of historic exploration figures? Paul D. Miller Response: I guess some of my most formative film experiences come from early cinema pieces like the two films – Melies ’ s 1902 “ The Conquest of the North ” and the “false” history of Frederick A. Cook’s 1912 “The Truth About the Pole” – I used to watch old films whenever I could, so I’d catch this kind of strange dualism. Like the Lumiere brothers, Cook’s film tried to portray itself as a realistic almost documentary kind of scenario. I usually prefer the other school of though – Melies started out as a magaician who wanted to apply magic technique to film. The two films are about the opposite side of the planet from Antarctica, but they’re both amazingly, eerily prescient about how discovery and the “voyager’s path” would then take on almost surreal proportions. That’s a similar motif for my “Terra Nova” and “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” projects. They both use found footage, print-design, and propaganda to show how exploration at the edge of the world is a prism to view how nations look at one another, and how art itself is a highly politicized medium. I guess you could say I’m inspired as much by Jules Verne as I am by the exploration of the film “90 Degrees South” by cinematographer Herbert G. Ponting, who was one of the first people to get footage from Antarctica. Elena Glasberg Question: Your work engages in and emerges through tropes and modes of globalism, the internet specifically. Yet you also dj for live audiences. How does Antarctica figure within your view of a global audience? Paul D. Miller Response: For me, music isn't music - it's information. So much of my work comes from the hard learned truth that collage speaks across many borders, cultures, and yes, economic classes: if you want to deal with hip hop and then give a lecture at places like Yale or Harvard, you really have to be prepared to speak in academic pidgin as much as be able to flow in the club scene etc. I never really thought of myself as “separate” from the normal art and academic works that I create. My books, art shows, and exhibitions are driven by the obsession I have with saying that multi-culturalism, market forces, and the basic fabric of “The Enlightenment” are interconnected. One of my favorite recent books “Capital and Language” by Christian Marazzi - you can look at people like him and his concept of new forms of “hoarding” as a way to engage some kind of logic of culturally produced “value.” I always am astounded at how little the artworld understands the kind of cultural economy that dj culture emerges from. Nothing, after Wagner’s concept of “gesamkunstwerk” exists in a vacuum: whether our culture is now taken from youtube.com videos or material posted online from cell phones by soldier’s in Iraq, we exist in a world where “documents” act as a kind of testimony. But once something is recorded, it’s basically a file waiting to be manipulated. That’s what links the concept of the remix to everything going on these days – truth itself is a remix. Anyway, it’s all about a new kind of relativism. Elena Glasberg Question: What do you think of Vaughan-Williams’ Sinfonia Antartica, as music and as an historical artifact of an Antarctic vision? Paul D. Miller Response: Vaughn Williams, it’s well documented, was pre-occupied with the concept with the “end of empire” and the end of World War II. I really think that’s when the concept of the British Empire and Commonwealth needed to be re-examined, and if you look at the Indian liberation project of Ghandi and Indian independence in 1947, that kind of stuff must have really been foremost on the mind of the generation of composers that needed to give the British something to think about after the war as a way of looking forward to reconstruction. What had the war been about except imperial ambition! By making Robert Scott, someone who had died in service to the Empire, the film “Scott of the Antarctic” really set the tone for how the twilight of the British Empire needed to look for new heroes. Let’s not forget that the first composition to really engage Antarctica started as a soundtrack for Vaughn'’s score to the film. I enjoy playing with the concept of music as a mirror we hold up to society – the Vaughn soundtrack, like the original music composed by Joseph Carl Breil for D.W. Griffith’s film “Birth of a Nation” - was a pastiche of themes and motifs that would speak to a film audience. I wanted to update the same concept with turntables and digital media. I really don’t think of music, film, and art as separate. There is a seamless connection – it’s the creative mind at work. Elena Glasberg Question: I’m interested that you actually went to a part of the Antarctic – I’m assuming the peninsula, by boat from South America. How did your conception of Antarctica as a place interact with your embodied presence? What was the most surprising aspect of being in Antarctica? Paul D. Miller Response: I went to several islands, and ice fields that were near the Antarctic peninsula but a little further down on the continent. I’ll be going back in a while to check out more of the interior. We chartered a Russian ice breaker called “The Academic Ioffe” and the next time I go, I’m going to try and get to the Lake Vostok base. The most surprising thing about Antarctica was the stench of penguin shit. You can smell them a mile or so out in the water!!! I’m always “embodied” (I always tend to mix that up with “embedded” these days anyway), so there’s no conflicted sense of spatial issues that seems to haunt a lot of the discourse about what physical performance is all about in a digital context. I live and remember it all. The idea of the “journey” if you look at Melies film “The Conquest of the North” from 1912, is still with us. It’s now just “hyper-realism.” Elena Glasberg Question: Do you think people belong in Antarctica? Paul D. Miller Response: No Elena Glasberg Question: Why do people need to /hear/ Antarctica? How does this mode distinguish itself from seeing Antarctica, which has been the overwhelming mode since the turn of the last century and the accident of near simultaneous advent of film photography and embodied access to the inner continent? How do you see your mixed modes of approach – embodiment and digitized representation - in the context of the history of representing the (arguably) most mediated place on earth? Paul D. Miller Response: Everything is I do is about paradox. It makes life fun. I think that people need to “HEAR” Antarctica because it is at the edge of the world. The idea of “mixed modes of approach” is a good term (of course, the dominant theme in dj culture is “the mix” so there’s some salient linkage there … ). The technical terms “heterodoxy” or “heterogeneity” both find a solid home in me and my work. I celebrate that kind of thing. One day, the software we use and the life we live will blur. It'’s kind of already happened. But that’s why I go to places like Antarctica. NY is probably one of the most mediated places on earth. If I have a conversation at a café, someone will put it on a blog. If I walk down the street, someone puts photos of it on flickr. It’s irritating, but hey… it’s the way we live now. Antarctica represents a place mediated by science – it’s literally almost another world.. Some of my favorite science fiction writers like Kim Stanley Robinson’s “Antarctica” or Crawford Kilian’s “IceQuake” who deal with Antarctica come up with some of the same themes: science, art and the weirdly un-worldliness of the ice terrain. I think of that kind of stuff as an update of the speculative visions of Verne that inspired Melies with his earlier films. My film “Terra Nova” and my gallery show “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” are in the same tradition. Music from the edge of the physical environment and music from the core of the urban landscape. Watch them collide in paradox. Elena Glasberg Question: You work among a wide variety of audiences, purposefully and joyously erupting into places not usually associated (variously) with dj culture, beats, aural sophistication, and academic-style intellectualization. Where do you place Antarctica within your work and audience. Paul D. Miller Response: I have a degree of comfort with new places that makes life in this hyper turblulent and digitally abstract contemporary life. Life is hybrid and always has been. It’s just that digital media is making us realize that it’s not about the “end of Western culture” because of multi-culturalism etc It’s actually giving Western culture a place in whatever else has been going on. Which is healthy… I just roll with it all. Edward Said’s critique of Western classical music as a kind of involuted “samizdat” (as above, so below…), rings true for my work. I really think that the distinctions that defined most of the 20 ^th century are almost gone. Technology has moved far more quickly to transform our social structures than anyone could have anticipated. Dj culture accepts this and celebrates this kind of phenomenon precisely because it’s not linked to the production of objects – it’s obsessed with continuous transformation, and that’s where I live. In total flux. Elena Glasberg Question: You are intrigued by Antarctica’s geopolitical exception – its lack of indigenous and its never-nationalized status now under the 1959 Antarctic Treaty System. I see this reflected in your playful echo of the title of a 1981 novel by John Calvin Bachelor, /The People’s Republic of Antarctica/ , in your marvelous poster series. How do you see Antarctica -- as an exception to global politics? A demonstration of alternative possibilities to history? An opportunity for fantasy? What vision of propaganda and history inspired the poster series? Paul D.. Miller Response: If you look at the 20 ^th century advertising, as Sigmund Freud’s nephew Edward Bernays, who coined the term “public relations,” was the hidden architecture holding both capitalism and communism together. Everyone had to get their message out! Whether it was Stalin who said that “engineers are poets of the soul” or Chairman Mao, who put teachers in chains and paraded them as false prophets, the kind of “stay on message” type ethos dominated the media discourse of every nation. With my “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” print design projects and my film projects – I simply ask the question: what if the nation state went away? What centrifuge would we all then call home? What would be the point of looking at the state as a kind of generative architecture? Would who be commissioning the designs, who would be fostering the arts? The answer: corporations. I use the ironic motif of stuff like the British East India company or some of the ways that we have corporate sponsorship of exploration/high endurance sports etc as examples. If you look at Rodchenko’s designs or Malevich’s early minimalism, you can see an echo of that in my work – the revolution for the U.S. after the fall of the Berlin Wall was untrammeled capitalism. Look around and see what it’s done for us! The only competing ideology at this point is radical Islam. I’m not so sure that people would like to embrace Sharia economics, but if they look at the Middle East, there’s lots of solid banking going on (unlike Wall street this week). I guess you could say that my work is kind of an aesthetic futures market where any sound can be you. That’s what sampling is about. The Terra Nova and Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica projects are mirrors held up to a world that is melting. I don’t know about you, but I think it’s a pretty strange mirror to see oneself in. I read John Calvin Bathelor’s book and enjoyed it, but aside from “sampling” the title (I do this a lot!), there’s not much of a connection – except that his book is a meditation on the end of norms of governance. Elena Glasberg Question: How are you creating the sounds of Antarctica? What is the technical process and how does it reflect Antarctic representation, its challenges, and its history? Paul D. Miller Response: My gallery installation at Robert Miller Gallery and Irvine Fine Arts is loosely based on the “false” story of Frederick A. Cook – who went North. “The Truth about the Pole” (1912) was a self-promotional docudrama in which producer Frederick A. Cook sought to have himself treated as a heroic adventurer who discovered the North Pole, a claim he'd been making since 1909. No director wanted credit for making it. Cook plays the starring role as himself. There is at least one appealing set that attempts to be naturalistic, showing a frozen ship in the distant background. Mostly it all looks pretty hooky. It's interesting how little one needs for a quick jaunt to the Pole, a log-book, sled, & American flag being the whole of it. All one requires to recover from such an easy stroll is a nice wooden hut & one sip of coffee from a tin cup. A silent film villain, Harry Whitney, is the evil scoundrel who started the rumor that Cook's former claim to have climbed Mt McKinley was a fabrication. This was (according to the revisions proposed by his film) Whitney's newest salvo in a campaign to make Cook's polar expedition appear to have been a hoax. I think it’s hilarious – I repurpose this kind of thing, and flip it into Southern perspective. Who owns the ice? Who owns the memory of the ice? My composition for the installation at the galleries is based on gamelan music from the idea of “shadow theater” mixed with string arrangements taken from my score to Terra Nova. Debussy after all, was inspired by gamelan, and I guess you could say ambient electronic music is about as “impressionist” composition as you can get. I like the idea of ambiguity. It keeps you on your feet, makes you think about paradox and the digital world of relativity we live in today. When I went to Antarctica I wanted to have a place where there was essentially a fresh perspective and where I really needed to think about how I would interact with the environment in a way that would free up some of the issues that drive normal hip hop. The sounds in my projects come from nature – wind, water, the noise of feet walking on ice… my project takes those sounds and uses them as an acoustic palette. I mixed and remixed the material to the point that bass lines come from wind and water movement, and the sound of human breath can be a motif made into some kind of strange pattern. The score for “Terra Nova” was written in a much more conventional way, but that’s why I like to say I’m into paradox. You could almost say that the score for Terra Nova is neo-Baroque, just on the edge of when everyone thought that the Age of Reason had dealt a death blow to superstition in Europe. Try telling that to Sarah Palin! I guess you could say that my project is about the “sound of science.” Elena Glasberg Question: I’m struck by the influence of Gore’s documentary /An Inconvenient Truth/ on subsequent representation of the Antarctic. I’m thinking in particular of all the computer graphic simulations of melting ice sheets in a pristine and remote Antarctic and the resultant rises in sea levels of very well known urban locations. Do you see your work in such a context of politicized – or catastrophic - simulation? Paul D. Miller Response: I’m a big Paul Virilio fan…. Let’s call Terra Nova in terms of theory speak (it’s just a different pidgin language after all): trajectories of the catastrophic, or pure war. Antarctica isn’t a place: it’s a location. It’s kind of like saying Buddhism isn’t a religion: it’s a philosophy. Everyone knows that, but they still get it wrong. I always try to get people to think about conceptual frames of reference: context is important in my work, and so is content. How do you establish an uneasy tension between context and content when everything can be remixed and changed, and there’s no final “version” of anything? In my film “Terra Nova” that kind of graphic design imprint is crucial to how the story is told. If you look at the old Terra Nova expedition of Robert Scott, you can only think: wouldn’t it have been great if they had satellite footage to tell them they weren’t that deep into the ice, and to compare some different routes to get out of the drift their ship was caught in. Stuff like Apsley Cherry Garrad’s infamous “The Worst Journey in The World” where he says “Polar exploration is at once the cleanest and most isolated way of having a bad time that has ever been devised,” is one of the most succinct ways one could put this simple observation. Melting ice sheets look cool, but then again, so do solar flares on the surface of the sun. They’re both harmful… but hey.. art makes things look cool. Elena Glasberg Question: Your film will be debuting at the democratic convention in August. How exciting. Obama will presumably see it. What would you like him to see, to respond to, and to promote in his election platform (and possible administration)? Paul D. Miller Response: I really think it’s time to say goodbye to the 20 ^th century. So yes, the Obama convention with Dialog City as the focal point for the contemporary art scene was a breath of fresh air for me. I really liked premiering my film at the Denver Opera House. The Colorado art scene is a lot more progressive than NY! I think Obama will probably be one of the greenest presidents since Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the White House. The Republicans went crazy, but in hindsight, it was really really really cool. I likestuff like that – that’s why I premiered Terra Nova at the Democrats convention.I think of Terra Nova as a reflection site – a location for the politics of perception that we use to look at the environment. Elena Glasberg Question: Antarctica and in particular the South Pole have been fantasy objects for US and European imperialism since the early 1900s. Authors populated the unknown south with wishful fantasies of lost races, arable lands, and mineral wealth. Postcolonial nations such as Argentina, Chile, and even Malaysia have fought and argued to be included among the arbiters of Antarctica’s possible riches. How do you negotiate nationalism and the history of imperialism in your own approach to the territory? Paul D. Miller Response: You really have to think about Antarctica as a “possible terrain” – it’s a surface we project on, but it doesn’t reflect us back. I always think of the phrase Bruce Sterling says: the suicide bomber is the poor mans cruise missile. There’s always going to be conflict over resources as long as people think everything is completely limited. The weird thing about the 21 ^st century is that we have perspective. That’s something the warring empires of the past didn’t. We have history, comparative science, and above all, a sense of urgency with regard to global warming. And guess what – we still can’t get it together. Some of the best recent films dealing with Antarctica: Werner Herzog’s “Encounters at The End of The World” or the anti-whaling film “At the Edge of the World” both have this kind of “rebel/misfit scientist” take on the expatriate community that lives in Antarctica. The cracks in the mirror are where some of the best images are to be found. Antarctica, for me, is just a really big crack in the way we look at the land claims of the “great nations” – I really think that my film project is a cinema-scape in the same tradition of Nam Jun Paik, John Cage’s “Imaginary Landscape” or Edgar Varese and Scriabin’s visual essays turned into sound. Imperialism is such a concrete process: take the land, brainwash the natives, make the people back home think it’s all being done in their name… The problem with the 21 ^st century for that kind of schemata is that no one really believes it any more. It’s just one fiction of many. I tend to think that that’s a good thing. It’s time for a fresh kaleidoscope! We need more paradox than we can possibly know right now. And Antarctica is the place to manifest that kind of paradox. After all, it’s the end of the world. I want us to look over the edge… Elena Glasberg Question: The majority of people on earth will never come near Antarctica. How do you want them to think of their relation to this remote and highly mediated territory? Do you feel that you’re operating with a (excuse the phrase) blank screen, or do preconceptions of the region cloud collective action? Paul D. Miller Response: How do people hear Antarctica? It’s a question that lingers over this interview. Unmoored, unleashed, free floating - sampling derives it's sense of free cut and paste aesthetics from the interplay of the kind of "rip, mix, and burn" scenario of the 21st century's information economy. But there are so many cultural resonances that kick in when we think about "appropriation art." I love to throw in allusions and word play – it mirrors what I do with sound, so excuse the aside: In 1964 Ralph Ellison, one of my favorite writers, read a statement at the Library Of Congress about the possibility of an artform made of fragments. The lecture was called "Hidden Name and Complex Fate" and basically it was a manifesto about a series of poems and music that was made into a "mix" of music that influenced him. It was kind of a "sonic memorial" made of fragments from artists and composers as diverse as Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Bessie Smith, Mahalia Jackson - but the selection was meant to be a literary scenario that evoked music as a kind of text. Of the jazz legends he invoked in his discussion, he simply wrote that "the end of all this discipline and technical mastery was the desire to express an affirmative way of life through its musical tradition... Life could be harsh, loud and wrong if it wished, but they lived it fully, and when they expressed their attitude toward the world it was with a fluid style that reduced the chaos of living to form." As an artist, writer, and musician, this kind of hybridity is something that drives my work. I'm inspired by the destruction of old, boring, ways of thinking and feeling, by the casting into the flames of obsolence all the stupid old categories that people use to hold the world back from the interplay of uncontrolled "mixing." Yeah, I say - we need to mix and remix everything. There is no final version of anything once it's digital. Is this a mirror we can hold up to society in the era of information overload? Dj mixes, freeware, open source media... yeah - they say it is possible. Antarctica is a realm of possibility because put simply, very few people are aware of its story. That in itself is a rare and elusive quality that the beginning of the 21 ^st century has brought front and center into modern perspective: there’s strength in invisibility. You have to think of the landscape and the way artists interact with it. John Cage’s “Imaginary Landscape” from 1939 was composed of records playing frequencies. But if you fast forward to his composition “In a Landscape” from 1948, you can easily see early taste for percussion instruments and "found sounds," as well as his interest in embedded, recursive rhythmic structures, while the last two of the series, composed in 1951 and 1952, exhibit the influences of Cage's experiments with various kinds of pre-compositional chance operations. I think that is what resonates with Antarctica for me: the space to be sonically free. After all: it’s the only place on Earth with no government. What’s the soundtrack to that? Elena Glasberg Question: Most reporting on Antarctica these days tends toward the catastrophic: ice melting, penguins starving, and now oil prices so high that scientific research programs themselves are financially threatened with extinction. What’s your main message amid this noise? And what if, anything, do you think is the greatest threat to Antarctica directly? To the globe more generally? Paul D. Miller Response: See above! ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ reader-list mailing list reader-list at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list End of reader-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 151 ******************************************** Be the first one to try the new Messenger 9 Beta! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/win/ From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 15:40:10 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 15:40:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Karan Thappar Interviews Arundhati Roy Message-ID: Interview with Arundhati by Karan Thappar in IBN Communal Profiling of 150 Million Muslims in India *Karan Thapar:* * Hello and welcome to *Devil's Advocate*. Why is Arundhati Roy angry with the police and upset with the press? That's the key issue I shall explore today. Arundhati Roy, let's start with the recent encounter in Jamia Nagar in New Delhi. You've called for an independent judicial enquiry headed by a Supreme Court judge. Why do you involve yourself into this work? What's your locus standi? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, I am just one of those thousands of people who are asking some very serious questions of the police. The trouble is that you know, even if you wanted to believe this police version, you don't know which police version to believe. Does one believe the Bombay police, the UP police, the Gujarat police or the Delhi police? All of them have different versions. There's a blizzard of masterminds. The Additional Commissioner of Mumbai police, Rakesh Maria recently said that Tauqeer, who is the Delhi police's mastermind of Indian Mujahideen, is a media creation. The point is who creates the media creations? Is it the media or the police or do they work together? *Karan Thapar:* * So, you are motivated by these contradictions. Is that the sole reason you need a judicial enquiry headed by a Supreme Court judge?* *Arundhati Roy:* Again, it is not just me. It was thousands of people who are saying one thing, you know. When the police have killed people, it ceases to be a neutral party. It cannot have an impartial investigation in its own actions. And there are so many serious questions about what happened at Batla House. *Karan Thapar:* * But before we come to those questions, let me point out what many people will be thinking at this moment. They are going to ask why do you think will an encounter, when a senior police officer like MC Sharma is killed and another injured would be fake. The police would not endanger themselves in a fake and fraudulent incident. * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, historically the police and security agencies the world over have done things like that. I am not saying it is fake. I am saying lets have an enquiry because this matter of MC Sharma, for instance would be cleared up if they would only produce the post-mortem report. Instead the post-mortem report is leaked in various ways and *Mail Today*says that he was shot from behind. Praveen Swami (of the daily *The Hindu*) says he was shot from two sides. The residents say that the police arrived and that there were drills and that they are making holes in the flat now. Why cannot all this be cleared up? If they would just produce the reports, which even the Magistrate asked for, and has put out a warrant for investigating officer and they still haven't produced it. *Karan Thapar:* * As you speak, I get the impression that your whole premise is that you don't trust the police. Millions of Indians do. Is it fitting and fair that you should question their veracity in this way when you know that it would not just demoralise them but it would seriously undermine their struggle to contain terror? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well. Millions of Indians do not trust the police. Is our choice not to question them because here we are talking about the communal profiling of a hundred and fifty million people, demoralising them, radicalising a whole generation and asking serious questions of a story that is told to us that is full of holes? Especially because such a senior police officer died in the incident, why should we not clear it up for the sake of police itself? *Karan Thapar:* * Let me for a moment play Devil's Advocate and point out to you evidence that you are deliberately ignoring. AK-47s were found in Batla House, so were two pistols. Policemen were shot at, policemen were killed. Atif's name appears in the Ahmedabad, Mumbai and UP police findings. Now, most recently, it transpires that Atif's degree from Allahabad is a fake. Why aren't you giving the police, as anyone else will, the benefit of the doubt? The evidence suggests that there is something suspicious, that there is a case. Why do you doubt it? * *Arundhati Roy:* Let enquiry clear it up. Even in the case of these recoveries, you know, there is a serious procedural lapse. When the police make recoveries at the scene of the crime, they should have independent witnesses corroborating it. They didn't, like in the case of the Parliament attack. *Karan Thapar:* * Isn't it possible that people are scared to come forth? * *Arundhati Roy:* No, but they have to get the seizure memo signed, right? And even the magistrate is asking for all these documents, for the FIR, the post mortem report, for the case diary not being produced. Now, let me ask some questions about Atif. The reports in the media given out by the police say that they have had him under surveillance since July 17. If so, then how was he allowed to plant these bombs in September? And even when they say that they had him under surveillance, they say that his number was called by a number, which was called by another number. I mean, c'mon, that's a lead, not proof that someone is a terrorist. *Karan Thapar:* * Maybe the surveillance wasn't effective. Maybe the police are exaggerating that they had him under surveillance. What about the other evidence that the police have brought into the public domain? It transpires that clips of the car that was used in the Ahmedabad bombings were found inside Atif's mobile, it transpires that literature of al-Qaeda was found at Batla House. It seems that even Saif has been using an assumed name. He has been travelling under a false identity calling himself Rohan Sharma. He even had that gentleman's voter identity card with him. None of these is suggestive or corroborated but you are dismissing it as otherwise. * *Arundhati Roy:* I am not dismissing it. If there is an enquiry, all this will also be a part of it. I am not dismissing they may be real terrorists. There are real terrorists, who are they? Are these boys the real ones? While the police are giving us evidence, there are also strange stories floating around. The police have been using the media to put out stories. All this is very disturbing and all this could be cleared out. *Karan Thapar:* * See, if I understand you correctly, there are two things you want clarified. One is that you want the questions and the inconsistencies in the police stories clarified because they suggest that the police hadn't got a clear cut case. And the second thing is that you want to try and get at the proof that establishes that the police had good reason to suspicious of the people. * *Arundhati Roy:* Exactly! Even their own versions are contradicting each other. On the one hand they say that you know, we did not know that they were terrorists and that is why we went in, in this casual manner. But the minute something came up they come out and say that these were the masterminds. There are so many things, you know. They say that people were killed in the crossfire but the proof is that these two men were killed while they were kneeling with shots in their head. *Karan Thapar:* * That's an assumption, I must point out! * *Arundhati Roy:* No, there are pictures. *Karan Thapar:* * Suggested. But we do not have the corroboration from the police. * *Arundhati Roy:* The police should show the post mortem report but we see it from the photographs. *Karan Thapar:* * You know what? Listening to you, people will say, and I am repeating what I have said to you earlier! They will say that her problem arises from the fact that she does not trust the police. Is it right that you should have such serious doubts about them? * *Arundhati Roy:* Not just rights, I think its our duty to have serious doubts and especially today, when we are sliding quickly into fascism and terrorism. It's our business as members of civil society to ask hard questions. *Karan Thapar:* * In which case, what are you suspecting the police…or let me put me more strongly and bluntly. What are you accusing the police of, on this issue? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, primarily of giving us a story that doesn't hold together and insults our intelligence. *Karan Thapar:* * Why would they do this? * *Arundhati Roy:* I don't know. That's what we would like to know. *Karan Thapar:* * Is it not possible that they have got it right and you have doubts about them? * *Arundhati Roy:* Maybe! But an enquiry would show that, wouldn't it? The more they block it, refuse to produce the post mortem. The more they subterfuge and obfuscate their way through this, the more people will get suspicious of them. *Karan Thapar:* * An enquiry at the end of the day, would be in their benefit as well! Is that what you are arguing? * *Arundhati Roy:* Absolutely! *Karan Thapar:* * What then do you say of people who argue that this is typical Arundhati Roy. She's been against dams and developments; she's in favour of secession of Kashmir. She's attacked nuclear weapons and is now she is defending terrorists? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, to being accused of being typically oneself is not an accusation. But if you are accusing me of having a world view that I do not believe in…I mean I do not believe in neo colonial military occupation, I don't believe in nuclear weapons and I don't believe in ecological destruction; then I am guilty as accused. Raising questions does not amount to supporting terrorism. I raised questions on the Parliament attack along with the people; we want to know who the terrorists are. We don't know. Now, of the people we defended, two of the four 'masterminds' of the case were released. Afzal has been convicted by the Supreme Court which says that says that we have no evidence to prove that he is attached to any terrorist groups but in order to satisfy the collective conscience of society, he is being sentenced to death. Excuse me Karan, its my case that the collective conscience of society is also a part of media construct and a part of the judicial imagination constructed by these stories that being put out. *Karan Thapar:* * So, you are saying to me that as a citizen, as a conscientious democrat, it is your duty to question. And if the questions are awkward and unsettling, so be it and that they must be answered, none the less? * *Arundhati Roy:* Yes, absolutely! *Karan Thapar:* * Arundhati Roy, lets come to the wider issue about how the police treats the people it has arrested and it is holding in detention. You are extremely upset by the fact that India Today journalists were given an access to the young men arrested at Batla House so that interviews could be done. Why do you call this a terrible thing? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, look this phenomenon of media confessions is becoming a standard operating procedure with the Special cell and the Delhi police. The point is that neither the courts nor any kind of international law allows you to say that people who are being held in police custody under torture. *Karan Thapar:* * How do you know that they are being held under torture? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, the possibility of torture…maybe that day, they were not tortured. It was the first day. *Karan Thapar:* * You are saying that Human Rights laws and values do not permit people under detention to be interviewed when they are not willing to be interviewed? * *Arundhati Roy:* Yes! And even the courts do not accept these as confessions or evidence. But the reason these are done is because they have a propaganda value. *Karan Thapar:* * The assumption when you say that such incidences have propaganda value is that these are forced confessions…that the young men interviewed did not give the answers they did, willingly and voluntarily. How can you conclude that that's the case? * *Arundhati Roy:* In this case it is very easy to be sure. Those young men, before they were caught, Zeeshan went to *Headlines Today*, Saquib went to *Mail Today*…both these (media units) are owned by the India Today, as you know. They were all people who came out in support of Atif and Saquib and said, look we know this guy. We know who he is. *Karan Thapar:* * Then how come you are calling those so called confessions when they are incriminating themselves and that when they went willingly to Mail Today or India Today, there are inconsistencies. * *Arundhati Roy:* Yes, so which version are we supposed to believe? The custodial one or the non-custodial one? *Karan Thapar:* * All the three men named by India Today and I will name them, Zia-ur-rehman, Saquib Insaar and Shakil admitted to planting bombs. You are denying or doubting the veracity of the so called confessions. * *Arundhati Roy:* Obviously! Its absurd not to, because they are in police custody. The same guys, Saquib went to *Mail Today* saying that I have known Atif for years. I got him this house. I mean it's hardly the behaviour of terrorists. *Karan Thapar:* * I assume that the point you are making is that any interview that is granted in police custody is not a willing and voluntary one and therefore any confession made in that interview is a forced confession and not acceptable? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, it is not admitted. Even in the Parliament case, the courts admonished the police for parading these people before the media and giving these media confessions. They didn't do anything to the police which is why the same police; in fact Mohan Chand Sharma was a part of that cell, that same cell did it to theses people and it served the purpose. The propaganda value has been achieved. *Karan Thapar:* * You are saying that the Courts had admonished the police at the time the Parliament attack had happened for arranging such alleged false confessions and the police disregarded that admonishing and did the same thing again. * *Arundhati Roy:* That's right. *Karan Thapar:* * In your eyes, is the police guilty of violating fundamental human rights by arranging what you call false confessions to be made in forced interviews? Is this a violation of basic human rights? * *Arundhati Roy:* It is a violation of all kinds of rights. I say it again, that in this atmosphere of communal profiling, this kind of propaganda is essential for them. It is the keystone to this whole enterprise. They have achieved what they set out to, regardless of what the court says. *Karan Thapar:* * The police have made a habit of this. It happened under circumstances, in the Arushi murder case, practically everyday. They hold press briefings, where half baked theories or at least unconfirmed details they are repeated and revealed to the press. The press then prints them as facts. The readers and the viewers of television then accept it as the truth. Are you disconcerted by this? * *Arundhati Roy:* I am utterly disconcerted by this because now it is the combination of the media and the police…you do not know which ends where and which begins where. In a situation where these encounter specialists are going out and summarily executing thirty people, calling them terrorists…No one asks questions once they are dead. We just accept it. *Karan Thapar:* * Just a moment ago, you spoke about the collusion between the media and the police. Are you saying that the press is itself in error when it accepts what is given by the police and publishes it without verifying or double checking it? * *Arundhati Roy:* It is not just an error. It is outrageous to do something like this. *Karan Thapar:* * So the press' behaviour is outrageous? * *Arundhati Roy:* It is outrageous. There are statements like…and this man looked at me and he looked like a human bomb…I mean what kind of journalism is that? *Karan Thapar:* * So when as a result, like many people have said, this collusion between the police and the press leads to Jamia Nagar or to Azamgarh being thought as terrorist hubs or breeding grounds for terrorism, how unfortunate is that? * *Arundhati Roy:* It is not just unfortunate, its very dangerous. We now have a situation where a hundred and fifty Muslims and an equal number of Dalits and Adivasis in a different set of circumstances are being targeted in this way. Even if half a per cent of them decide to stop putting their heads down and decide to hit back, life as we knew it is over. A whole generation is radicalised and India becomes a threat to not just itself, but to the whole world. *Karan Thapar:* * This is something very important that you are saying. You mean that this behaviour of the police and the uncritical reporting by the press is going to end up in alienation and breeding the terrorism that we think we are controlling. * *Arundhati Roy:* Yes, that and also that this is a recipe for sliding into fascism. And we are bang in the middle of it now and this is how it works. *Karan Thapar:* * Why does the Indian middle class society that is so proud of calling itself a liberal democracy, accept this? * *Arundhati Roy:* Well, I don't think we are anymore proud of this. We have increasingly accepted that we are a police state and there is a sort of sliding of the democracy into majority into fascism that is a real danger now. *Karan Thapar:* * So you are saying that the middle class no more stands up for the liberal values it believes in. It is actually in a sense accepting the horrible shortcuts and therefore colluding. It's a very strong criticism, do you really mean it? * *Arundhati Roy:* I do. In fact, I feel that some day like the Nazis in Germany, we will be called upon to answer for what we have done and why we kept quiet while this was happening. *Karan Thapar:* * I get the feel that you are deeply disillusioned with the Indian middle classes. * *Arundhati Roy:* It is not just the middle classes, you know. It is the framework that we are putting into action these days. I have spent ten years writing about it. We are in a very serious situation. If we are to right it, all of us should ask ourselves very serious questions about when we chose to speak up and when we chose to stay quiet. *Karan Thapar:* * But in keeping quiet, as you say suggesting, Indians today are prepared to do, they are not just betraying essential values that they claim they believe in, they are actually betraying themselves and letting down their country. That's the case you are making. * *Arundhati Roy:* I am making that case and I am saying that with these policies that we are persuing, today every ordinary Indian's life is going to be at risk and we will pay very heavily for the consequences of what is going on now. *Karan Thapar:* * So it is virtually the last moment to stand up and be identified with the values that we claim to believe in otherwise those values are gone and with that our lives are gone.* *Arundhati Roy:* Absolutely! *Karan Thapar:* * And that's not an exaggeration? * *Arundhati Roy:* Nope! Absolutely not! *Karan Thapar:* * Arundhati Roy, a pleasure talking to you on Devil's Advocate* From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 16:39:16 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 04:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <487203.86250.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Wonder who the Buddha is? If there is one.   Angulimala 'turned' to the Path of Righteousness.   Yasin Malik has only changed weapons and garbs.   --- On Sat, 10/25/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" , "Sarai" Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 8:00 PM Dear Aditya, I've said what I had to in my last mail about Yasin, other Kashmiri separatists and the peace process. If I respond point by point to your last email I will risk subjecting the Reader's List to another long harangue from you and I don't think that's fair. As my last words before I close my end of this exchange on Yasin Malik and terrorism, I wonder whether you've ever come across the story of Angulimala? Please read it and let us have a private conversation after that. Best wishes, Sonia Jabbar. > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:56:22 +0530 > To: sarai list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Real Face of Terrorist Yasin Malik > > 7. Yasin Malik is defended by a good lobby of activists, lawyers, bureaucrats > and others. I need not mention 'why' atleast hundred cases against him; which > I've a list of are not moving ahead. He is a puppet at the hands of various > agencies inside and outside the country. He is an important tool to turn, > control and ignite or sweep Kashmir Internal Politics. He has been a killer, > kidnapper and a rapist of not only Kashmiri Pandits, but even Kashmiri Muslims > and even IAF personnel who were killed in a non-combat situation. What could > be worse? He enjoys free movement inside and outside the country inspite of > several cases pending against him. Today 25th October, is one such hearing of > his case in the TADA Court in Jammu where the case has been on for last 18 > years and he rarely attends. I fail to understand where did I corner you or > scream at you. Just another figment of imagination you live with Sonia. Kindly > WAKE UP !!!!! We do protest with the state whereever possible; but similarly > we protest with the HR bodies who have been silent on this deamon turned > Godfather of many. We can't and won't stop protesting against him. He killed > and raped our brothers and sisters. He was the initiator of terrorism which > led to exodus of an entire community of 'moderate and peaceful Pandits'. How > can you sit and reconcile with such a psychopath? Just memorising speaches > and giving 'Takrir' in Kashmir doesn't make a leader of him. He has been a > Terrorist and needs to face justice delivery mechanism. Its strange why you > are going out of bounds to save him. What makes you speak for him ? Can I > smell something? 8. JKLF was a banned organisation and strangely after 2000 > no one knows why nothing happened. GoI needs to be taken to task for this. No > one wishes to dine or be with this crazy Yasin Malik. No one cares a shit > about him. In the recent India Today Conclave, actress Preity Zinta > expressed reservations of sharing platform with such a person. Similar was the > reacton from Shekhar Kapur and lot many delegates. He is widely known as a > person who killed innocents. Watch Tim Sebestian's BBC Hard Talk with much > famous terrorist Yasin Malik. Malik's silence speaks a thousand words. You > can do anything with him; that is your personal matter. None of my business. > But, remember it was you who questioned my right to protest at Jantar Mantar > not me. So, Kindly think and then type. 9. If someone kills your parents and > brother tomorrow in the name of religion and after a few days says I didn't > mean to do it and apologise for the same and you come to know he has done the > same with 100 more people; will you sit silently and celebrate the killings in > your family? No country is different. I still believe in the law of the land. > Hopefully, soon Yasin Malik will be behind bars and get sevearest punishment. > From 1989 to 1994 he was a hardcore terrorist. He raped and then cut Sarla > Bhat into pieces. He killed Tikka Lal Taploo in broad day light in busy > Lalchowk area. Yasin Malik even killed Director Doordarshan Lass Kaul. And, > you want to encourage him. What about Justice, Human Rights and Law now? Or, > does something else push you to speak in Yasin's favour. Why isn't the same > when your Narender Modi is in picture ? 10. Obviously, I and 'Roots In > Kashmir' world-wide initiative would continue to campaign and spread awareness > against this maniac and psychopath killer and terrorist Yasin malik who > unfortunately roams free. In early 90's, my community met exodus; just for > your information. If we seek for our rights and justice now; is it a crime ? > We have a right to ask and question. We have a right to protest. We have a > right to take legal course. And, the public voice counts; not of 'terrorist' > or their supporters. All through our conversation, it is clear something > really motivates you to support Yasin Malik. And, I can't take it just as a > geuine concern or a support for some movement. There is a lot behind the > curtains. What charisma does a terrorist have who is a 10th fail and was a > street hooligan till he reached 20 years of his age ? Your statements make me > laugh Sonia Jabbar. Atleast, save some shame. I dare you to bring Yasin Malik > yet again to New Delhi. Cardreless you are; because no-one supports the so > called aazadi (zaharbadi) and everyone just wants peace and no more of Yasin > Malik. Money flow continues. I don't know how you know so much about Yasin > Malik's internal group details, money matters and even cardre. Things don't > seem as bright. 11. We support the peace process; but not one hijacked by > likes of Yasin Malik. Till a dirty fish like him rules the pond; dirt will > remain intact. Once it is gone; peace is here to stay. And, why do we need to > talk to him ? Does he have a mandate ? We know how people are brought in the > protest rallies in Kashmir at gun point or by providing money etc. It is just > the way Congress or BJP organise mass rallies. So, don't deviate > attention, there is no such mass movement or so called aazadi sentiment. An > aazad Kashmir will crumble in a few seconds as a pack of cards. Kashmir has > always been an integral part of India historically, geographically, > culturally, and politically. There is no second thought on this. The likes of > terrorist Yasin Malik and their supporters if they wish to, should be > transported outside Indian boundaries; they need not stay in Kashmir. Enough > of bloodshed and massacres. A common man wants peace; and that doesn't seem > coming till such terrorists roam free. Well, Sonia you have no extra Power to > predict what might happen in future and in which direction talks will shape > up. It might just happen that your good friend Yasin Malik is killed by his > own people, as has been the trend because of their intra group rivalry. I'm > sure you are aware of this after being so close to your Yasin 'Sahab'. > Also, Yasin might soon be behind bars convicted in just so many cases > pending against him. Oh yeah you would certainly talk to him and meet him, but > in the Central Jail ... :-) And, you are no one to reconcile on our behalf. I > don't knpow where from you jumped into Kashmir Politics; unless their are some > big external hands guiding you into it. Well, I don't have problems if you > meet Syed Sallaudin either. This is purely your wish. You have such bent of > mind. You can as well go and meet Osama Bin Laden. Wish you all success in > encouraging terrorists. Yasin Malik and Syed Salludin have no role in > Kashmir. Terrorism that they started doesn't force us to include them in > talks. Lets see how things shape now... We both would be here somewhere. And > lastly, let me reiterate what I said earlier for you to understand clearly. > I've nothing against you, why should I ? But, this bloody Yasin Malik is a > terrorist and a mass killer. He needs to be transported to his right location. > And, you will find me and 'Roots In Kashmir' protesting or campaigning against > this monster friend of yours. Be happy !!!! Now, go and prepare for Yasin's > wedding in Jail. P.S. - It would be best if we end this discussion here > itself, I don't want to publicly abuse Yasin Malik now on this forum. And, try > and be a bit tollerant and appreciate the other opinion; or else your > intentions are > at doubt. Best, _________________________________________ reader-list: an > open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 17:30:34 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:00:34 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Fwd: Re: one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide] Message-ID: <49045BE2.3040806@gmail.com> You are welcome to dis-support me. I am not exactly looking for your support. Pawan Durani wrote: > Kirdar : Let your soul rest in peace. Flowers would be sent by courier.Hope > this group would be spared of a Kirdar in future. With the logic you have > given , your state of mind deserved peace and I hope you may have already > taken the extreme step. > > Tapas Ray : Cant not expect any support or reasoning from you. Leftists like > you ditched India even dur > ing the Quit India Movement , so can not any change. The problem is that you > all havent changed over years , though world over your logic has failed > .Shameless opportunits all across the world. > > Karim : I am not sure of how much you know about Kashmiri Pandits , since > you have used names of Panun Kashmir , let me inform you that out of two > charity hospital run in refufee camp > in Jammu, One Hospital Shriya Bhatt Mission Hospital was started and is > being run by Panun Kashmir only. > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On 10/26/08, karimnanvore karim wrote: >> Dear Friends >> >> The kashmiri pandits writing in this group belong to a secton of Kashmiris >> who were born and brought up in urban settings in kashmir and have never >> been exposed to the realities of life. How many of them have been to Mutthi >> Camp in Jammu or to the slum like shelters where Kashmiri Pandits from >> Rural >> Kashmir are stayin in and around Delhi. These Panun Kashmir, roots in >> Kashmir Shops are being run on the hopes and aspirations of common Kashmiri >> Pandits who have been living in miserable conditions in such camps. >> It will be interesting to know how many of Panun Kashmiris, Roots in >> Kashmir >> are running schools in such slums or hospitals or have made arrangements >> for >> the education of these pandits in the form of scholarships. I Guess the >> group will be interested in knowing that aspect of Such organizations! >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kirdar wrote: >> >>> One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, >>> honestly. >>> There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and >>> displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life >>> moves on, yaar. >>> >>> I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, >>> are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living >>> on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of >>> cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present >>> houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you >>> live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above >>> is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? >>> >>> Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference >>> or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya >>> mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came >>> to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no >>> space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? >>> >>> Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the >>> moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are >>> we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any >>> other sane topic on this list. >>> >>> So, please get the hell out of here. >>> >>> (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody >>> please write my obituary on Sarai) >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Oct 26 18:24:03 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:24:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Say BIG NO to Diwali" Message-ID: <9c06aab30810260554p79c01340lecffbd017742f845@mail.gmail.com> Dear friends, Given below is an article by a Dalit Buddhist that some of you may find interesting. best shivam o o o o o o Say BIG NO to Diwali By Pardeep Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them. – James Baldwin "History of India is nothing but the battle between Buddhism & Brahmanism." – Dr. B R Ambedkar. In India, the so called followers of Hinduism are gullible (naive) people those are following Brahmanism in the form of sugar coated Hinduism. From generation to generation Brahmans have spread many crooked stories to befool masses & to keep Dalit-Bahujans following Brahmanical culture. All these Brahmanical crooked stories have made such a psychological impact over people that they are bound to follow these rituals without knowing the reality behind these fraudulent stories!! Hindus says "Light lamps & Laxmi (money) will flow into your house." How it can be possible scientifically that lighting candles will make money to come? If it would have be true people those are living in remote areas, people those don't have access to electricity would have be millionaire by now, as they use candles for lighting purpose throughout year!! Goddess Laxmi this year might have forgotten the path to India & have made Indian economy to reach lower of the lowest!! Mr. KOVENA rightly said in the book named "The Hidden History" page no. 19 that "Hindu means thief in Persian language & Hinduism mean country of thieves, Hindus feel proud of being thief." Jawaharlal Nehru in his book "Discovery of India" at page no. 204-5 writes that the festivals like Holi, Diwali & Dussehra are imitation of the Greek festivals. At page no. 235, Nehru explains that the Brahmins are not a caste but an organisation who would offer their daughters for the guests. Page no. 37 states "Hinduism as a faith is vague, amorphous, many sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of the word. In its present form, and even in the past, it embraces many beliefs and practices, from the highest to the lowest, often opposed to or contradicting each other." Here lies the reality of Diwali festival: On this day Great Gana king (tribal) Bali was murdered by Waman- a Brahman by cheating. If people want to celebrate this day, celebrate in the name of King Bali, a Bahujan virtuous king. Bhikhu Mahamodgalyayan was murdered by Brahmans on this day. After murder of Buddhists in the rule of Pushyamitra Shung this day was celebrated as "Eekadashi". Pushyamitra killed many Buddhists monks, destroyed Buddha Vihars, burnt Buddhist literature in 200 BC. Many Buddhist places were converted in Hindu temples. After this Buddhism started diminishing & Brahmanism started strengthening. When Aryans came from Egypt through Iran, China they brought their culture with themselves & the so called "Hindu Vedas" are imitation of Egypt & Iranian books with little bit change in rules. "Ram" on the name of which this festival is celebrated is a fictitious character, even supreme court of India has denied the existence of so called "Ram", hence where lies the logic of Hindus to celebrate? Many scholars do agree that "Pushyamitra Shung" was the so called "Ram Chandar" who imposed many laws on Dalit-Bahujans & stopped their progress. Ramayana was written afterwards to befool non Brahmans. So called "Ram" (Pushyamitra Shung) killed Shudra rishi Shambuk, who was practicing meditation just because he was from lower caste & lower caste people don't have the right to meditate!! Hindus worship Laxmi -- Goddess of Money but the surveys conducted proved that still 77% people are alive on the daily income of Rs.20, what to eat and what to wear?? All other developed countries like US, UK etc there are no god and goddess like Saraswati or Laxmi but still maximum of the population are literate and rich in comparison to India. Hindus have embossed the mental slavery which had shut down all doors to be rational thinking. Apart from above there is increase of Asthma patients by 15% every year because of air pollution, by spending thousands on crackers we are doing nothing but increasing Asthma patients. Also by spending thousands on crackers we hope that Laxmi (money) was come, how it can be possible? The problem with Hindu people is that they never rational and not ready to be literate and this make the Indian heritage rich with poor people rather slaves meant for slavery. "Diwali" is nowhere mentioned in Ramayana of Rishi Valmiki or Tulsidas. But term Diwali find place in Jain books & exact dates are mentioned in Jain scriptures. As Buddha Purnima is celebrated, the day of enlightenment of Lord Buddha same way in Jainism this "Diwali" is a day of nirvana of Lord Mahavira. But now a day's whole motive & real facts have been vanished in time & gullible people are celebrating it with different motive like earning money & to do business. All the fallacious stories – gateway to establish Brahmanical culture & allied fests look harmless when seen be common eye, but in reality these mythical stories are deadliest weapon to destroy Dalit-Bahujans culture & to impose Brahmanical culture. Once Dalit-Bahujans will lose their identity, hence they'll not have any other option than to follow the imposed Brahmanical culture. Hence we should immediately discard the Hindu rituals, ceremonies, pilgrimages, festivals those have made us slaves & we should follow the 22 vows given by Dr. B R Ambedkar if we really want that our Dalit-Bahujan society live with pride & dignity. Pardeep pardeepattri @ yahoo.co.in 26th October 2008 http://www.flickr.com/photos/27315615 at N02/ http://www.youtube.com/dalitjade http://dalitindia.blogspot.com/ Know Buddha, Know Life No Buddha, No Life..! From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 26 18:31:14 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 06:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <4903619D.5070808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515242.4641.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tapas   With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or "Pseudo-secular" or "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of Humanism?   Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a person a follower of the Hindutva agenda.   You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown on this List by KPs if instead of that idiotic term of 'migration' you see the reality of the Internal Displacement that took place.   You might better understand the frustrations when you recognise that a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set, removed from the Land where it should exist for it's continuation and evolvement, is on the verge of extinction because of the Internal Displacemernt from it's nurturing environment.   I am always amazed that people who can be highly sensitive to various Displacements (Tribal, Forest etc) and sensitive to to sub-sets of species becoming extinct (Turtles, Deer, Tigers etc) have a completely different (contradictory and hypocritical) attitude if the 'on verge of extinction' Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set of Kashmiri Pandits is brought to their notice.   I will be the first one to admit that the issues concerning Kashmiri Pandits are not presented in the most appealing manner. That does not take away from the seriousness of the issue.   Kshmendra --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide To: "sarai list" Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:42 PM Kirdar, These people are simply using the migration issue to foist the Hindutva agenda on this list and to wreck it if they can't. So, I am afraid your logic will have no effect. People who do this sort of thing, are not the kind this list is meant for. If they don't shape up, they will have to ship out - or be shipped out - eventually. Tapas Kirdar wrote: > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, honestly. > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > moves on, yaar. > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > other sane topic on this list. > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > please write my obituary on Sarai) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mail at shivamvij.com Sun Oct 26 18:53:15 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 18:53:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <73eb60090810251103k2a6e9a7dx20133d6a708e1dd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30810260623s669c46c2s548ca1e68e8ad625@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kirdar, These right-wing individuals from the Kashmiri Pandit community do not represent the entire community. The Kashmiri Pandits are a varied lot and these individuals represent only a fanatic fringe who unfortunately base their politics of hate on the pain of the entire community. By doing so they insult they belittle of the community every day, every moment, every email. Their participation on the Reader-List, if you have followed it closely, is driven by a definite goal - to drown out liberal progressive voices on any and everything, simply by falsely accusing everyone else of hurting their fragile "sentiments". They are here on the list to win an imagined war against "leftists" and boy, they're winning! This is similar to the manner in which they disrupt film screenings, or others' protests. Democracy is not something they are really fond of. The bad name that these individuals are bringing to the Kashmiri Pandit community is indeed unfortunate. However, there is a very simple way you can eliminate their voices from your Gmail address.Go to Settings > Filters > Create a new filter. Then in the "Form" field write Aditya Raj Kaul. Click at "Next step" and then check the "Delete it" box. You can create similar filters for Pawan Durani, rashneek kher, kshmendra kaul, we wi - or hey, even me! After sending this mail I'm going to do just that to those names - so I don't have to read their replies to this one! best shivam On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kirdar wrote: > > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, honestly. > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > moves on, yaar. > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > other sane topic on this list. > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > please write my obituary on Sarai) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 19:16:42 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:16:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] these "terrorists" are so malleable Message-ID: Look at this news item - the person who sent IM emails now wants to become an informer. How convinient for the police: first show to the world that we have arrested the real culprit, then say he is going to give all the secrets. But wait a minute - even if this was true, shouldn't this development be considered a top secret? Are some "top secrets" meant to be announced? This news must be followed - I can predict that this man will soon give out all the names of "terrorists" that police wants to convict. Terror techie wants to turn approver: Police 26 Oct 2008, 1604 hrs IST, Times Now NEW DELHI: In a new twist in the terror email case, IT professional from Pune, Mohammed Mansoor Asghar Peerbhoy who was arrested for sending terror emails prior to the Ahmedabad and Delhi serial blasts, is poised to turn approver, according to Times Now. Rakesh Maria, Joint Commissioner Mumbai police confirmed that Mansoor Peerbhoy has filed an application in the MCOCA court indicating that he wants to turn an approver and help the police build a case against other accused. Peerbhoy wrote an application in the MCOCA court on October 8 and submitted it only on October 21. The court has to decide on Peerbhoy's application. Maria said, "Peerbhoy has filed an application in MCOCA court. He wrote the application on Oct 8, submitted it on Oct 21. His decision is pending in MCOCA court but this will help us considerably in exposing IM." According to Times Now sources Mumbai police are happy that Peerbhoy is actively considering turning an approver because the terror techie, as he is called, is one of the nodal members of the conspiracy hatched by the Indian Mujahideen to carry blasts across the country. 31-year-old Mohammed Peerbhoy was working at an IT company belonging to the Yahoo group and was drawing a hefty pay packet of around 19 lakh rupees a year. He was considered a whiz in web server technology and used his knowledge to hack into unprotected wi-fi connections to send terror emails on behalf of the Indian Mujahideen (IM). http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Terror_techie_wants_to_turn_approver_Police/articleshow/3642936.cms From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Oct 26 22:44:01 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:14:01 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <515242.4641.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <515242.4641.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4904A559.4010004@gmail.com> Kshemendra, I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), and take your criticism seriously. You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate their situation. I apologise for that. However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that their plight was similar to those Palestinians who have been forced into exile. Of course, the Palestinian refugees have to live in foreign lands - Jordan, Lebanon, etc. - where the local populations, despite being Muslims and Arabs like themselves, are not particularly welcoming towards them, while the KPs and other Kashmiri displaced are refugees in their own land. I have never said that anyone who speaks for the Kashmiri refugees is a Hindu fundamentalist. You have spoken for them if I remember, but I do not consider you as someone who even remotely resembles Aditya, Pawan, etc. At least that is the impression I have gathered from those posts I have read, which are probably fewer than those I haven't been able to read. But I cannot stress enough that the others not only are the foot soldiers of Hindutva but soldiers with fascist tendencies if not outright fascists. I have come to that conclusion from the totality of their posts, not just their support for the KPs' cause. My understanding is that these people are exploiting KPs in the Parivar's interest and damaging the KPs' cause by doing that. In other words, for those of them who are KPs themselves, Hindutva is more important than the interests of those members of their own community who are less fortunate than themselves. Tapas Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such > voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or "Pseudo-secular" or > "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of Humanism? > > Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a > person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. > > You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown on this List > by KPs if instead of that idiotic term of 'migration' you see the > reality of the Internal Displacement that took place. > > You might better understand the frustrations when you recognise that a > Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set, removed from the Land > where it should exist for it's continuation and evolvement, is on the > verge of extinction because of the Internal Displacemernt from it's > nurturing environment. > > I am always amazed that people who can be highly sensitive to various > Displacements (Tribal, Forest etc) and sensitive to to sub-sets of > species becoming extinct (Turtles, Deer, Tigers etc) have a completely > different (contradictory and hypocritical) attitude if the 'on verge of > extinction' Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set of Kashmiri Pandits > is brought to their notice. > > I will be the first one to admit that the issues concerning Kashmiri > Pandits are not presented in the most appealing manner. That does not > take away from the seriousness of the issue. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll > commit suicide > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:42 PM > > Kirdar, > > These people are simply using the migration issue to foist the Hindutva > agenda on this list and to wreck it if they can't. So, I am afraid your > logic will have no effect. > > People who do this sort of thing, are not the kind this list is meant > for. If they don't shape up, they will have to ship out - or be shipped > out - eventually. > > Tapas > > > Kirdar wrote: > > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > honestly. > > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > > moves on, yaar. > > > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > > other sane topic on this list. > > > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > > please write my obituary on Sarai) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon Oct 27 05:38:56 2008 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul Miller) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:08:56 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Antarctica: An Artist Dialog In-Reply-To: <4904243B.4060906@sarai.net> References: <4904243B.4060906@sarai.net> Message-ID: <201EB645-EA28-4F2F-8039-F56C29C0B288@earthlink.net> Hello Iram, and thanx for responding to the post. One thing - I shot and put together a film, but it's also an art installation. I just thought I'd clarify. in peace, Paul aka Dj Spooky On Oct 26, 2008, at 4:03 AM, Iram Ghufran wrote: > > Subject: > Antarctica: An Artist Dialog > From: > Paul Miller > Date: > Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:01:12 -0400 > > > > Hello people - this is an interview for an interesting conference > coming > up at Columbia University/Barnard College called "Gender on Ice" > coming > up in November. My film "Terra Nova: Sinfonia Antarctica" and Isaac > Julian's film "True North" will be featured. > > > An Interview with Paul D. Miller on his Antarctica film “Terra Nova” > by > Elena Glasberg, ELENA GLASBERG. Adjunct Associate Professor, Princeton > University > > Terra Nova – Sinfonia Antarctica trailer: > > http://www.djspooky.com/art/terra_nova.php > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: When did Antarctica emerge into your world? Do you recall > images? Was it fiction? Or, learning of historic exploration figures? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > I guess some of my most formative film experiences come from early > cinema pieces like the two films – Melies ’ s 1902 “ The Conquest of > the > North ” and the “false” history of Frederick A. Cook’s 1912 “The Truth > About the Pole” – I used to watch old films whenever I could, so I’d > catch this kind of strange dualism. Like the Lumiere brothers, Cook’s > film tried to portray itself as a realistic almost documentary kind of > scenario. I usually prefer the other school of though – Melies started > out as a magaician who wanted to apply magic technique to film. The > two > films are about the opposite side of the planet from Antarctica, but > they’re both amazingly, eerily prescient about how discovery and the > “voyager’s path” would then take on almost surreal proportions. > That’s a > similar motif for my “Terra Nova” and “Manifesto for a People’s > Republic > of Antarctica” projects. They both use found footage, print-design, > and > propaganda to show how exploration at the edge of the world is a prism > to view how nations look at one another, and how art itself is a > highly > politicized medium. I guess you could say I’m inspired as much by > Jules > Verne as I am by the exploration of the film “90 Degrees South” by > cinematographer Herbert G. Ponting, who was one of the first people to > get footage from Antarctica. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: Your work engages in and emerges through tropes and modes of > globalism, the internet specifically. Yet you also dj for live > audiences. How does Antarctica figure within your view of a global > audience? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > For me, music isn't music - it's information. So much of my work comes > from the hard learned truth that collage speaks across many borders, > cultures, and yes, economic classes: if you want to deal with hip hop > and then give a lecture at places like Yale or Harvard, you really > have > to be prepared to speak in academic pidgin as much as be able to > flow in > the club scene etc. I never really thought of myself as “separate” > from > the normal art and academic works that I create. My books, art shows, > and exhibitions are driven by the obsession I have with saying that > multi-culturalism, market forces, and the basic fabric of “The > Enlightenment” are interconnected. One of my favorite recent books > “Capital and Language” by Christian Marazzi - you can look at people > like him and his concept of new forms of “hoarding” as a way to engage > some kind of logic of culturally produced “value.” I always am > astounded > at how little the artworld understands the kind of cultural economy > that > dj culture emerges from. Nothing, after Wagner’s concept of > “gesamkunstwerk” exists in a vacuum: whether our culture is now taken > from youtube.com videos or material posted online from cell phones by > soldier’s in Iraq, we exist in a world where “documents” act as a kind > of testimony. But once something is recorded, it’s basically a file > waiting to be manipulated. That’s what links the concept of the > remix to > everything going on these days – truth itself is a remix. Anyway, it’s > all about a new kind of relativism. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: What do you think of Vaughan-Williams’ Sinfonia Antartica, > as > music and as an historical artifact of an Antarctic vision? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > Vaughn Williams, it’s well documented, was pre-occupied with the > concept > with the “end of empire” and the end of World War II. I really think > that’s when the concept of the British Empire and Commonwealth > needed to > be re-examined, and if you look at the Indian liberation project of > Ghandi and Indian independence in 1947, that kind of stuff must have > really been foremost on the mind of the generation of composers that > needed to give the British something to think about after the war as a > way of looking forward to reconstruction. What had the war been about > except imperial ambition! By making Robert Scott, someone who had died > in service to the Empire, the film “Scott of the Antarctic” really set > the tone for how the twilight of the British Empire needed to look for > new heroes. Let’s not forget that the first composition to really > engage > Antarctica started as a soundtrack for Vaughn'’s score to the film. I > enjoy playing with the concept of music as a mirror we hold up to > society – the Vaughn soundtrack, like the original music composed by > Joseph Carl Breil for D.W. Griffith’s film “Birth of a Nation” - was a > pastiche of themes and motifs that would speak to a film audience. I > wanted to update the same concept with turntables and digital media. I > really don’t think of music, film, and art as separate. There is a > seamless connection – it’s the creative mind at work. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: I’m interested that you actually went to a part of the > Antarctic – I’m assuming the peninsula, by boat from South America. > How > did your conception of Antarctica as a place interact with your > embodied > presence? What was the most surprising aspect of being in Antarctica? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > I went to several islands, and ice fields that were near the Antarctic > peninsula but a little further down on the continent. I’ll be going > back > in a while to check out more of the interior. We chartered a Russian > ice > breaker called “The Academic Ioffe” and the next time I go, I’m > going to > try and get to the Lake Vostok base. The most surprising thing about > Antarctica was the stench of penguin shit. You can smell them a mile > or > so out in the water!!! I’m always “embodied” (I always tend to mix > that > up with “embedded” these days anyway), so there’s no conflicted > sense of > spatial issues that seems to haunt a lot of the discourse about what > physical performance is all about in a digital context. I live and > remember it all. The idea of the “journey” if you look at Melies film > “The Conquest of the North” from 1912, is still with us. It’s now just > “hyper-realism.” > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: Do you think people belong in Antarctica? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: No > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: Why do people need to /hear/ Antarctica? How does this mode > distinguish itself from seeing Antarctica, which has been the > overwhelming mode since the turn of the last century and the > accident of > near simultaneous advent of film photography and embodied access to > the > inner continent? How do you see your mixed modes of approach – > embodiment and digitized representation - in the context of the > history > of representing the (arguably) most mediated place on earth? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > Everything is I do is about paradox. It makes life fun. I think that > people need to “HEAR” Antarctica because it is at the edge of the > world. > The idea of “mixed modes of approach” is a good term (of course, the > dominant theme in dj culture is “the mix” so there’s some salient > linkage there … ). The technical terms “heterodoxy” or “heterogeneity” > both find a solid home in me and my work. I celebrate that kind of > thing. One day, the software we use and the life we live will blur. > It'’s kind of already happened. But that’s why I go to places like > Antarctica. NY is probably one of the most mediated places on earth. > If > I have a conversation at a café, someone will put it on a blog. If I > walk down the street, someone puts photos of it on flickr. It’s > irritating, but hey… it’s the way we live now. Antarctica represents a > place mediated by science – it’s literally almost another world. > Some of > my favorite science fiction writers like Kim Stanley Robinson’s > “Antarctica” or Crawford Kilian’s “IceQuake” who deal with Antarctica > come up with some of the same themes: science, art and the weirdly > un-worldliness of the ice terrain. I think of that kind of stuff as an > update of the speculative visions of Verne that inspired Melies with > his > earlier films. My film “Terra Nova” and my gallery show “Manifesto > for a > People’s Republic of Antarctica” are in the same tradition. Music from > the edge of the physical environment and music from the core of the > urban landscape. Watch them collide in paradox. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: You work among a wide variety of audiences, purposefully and > joyously erupting into places not usually associated (variously) > with dj > culture, beats, aural sophistication, and academic-style > intellectualization. Where do you place Antarctica within your work > and > audience. > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > I have a degree of comfort with new places that makes life in this > hyper > turblulent and digitally abstract contemporary life. Life is hybrid > and > always has been. It’s just that digital media is making us realize > that > it’s not about the “end of Western culture” because of multi- > culturalism > etc It’s actually giving Western culture a place in whatever else has > been going on. Which is healthy… I just roll with it all. Edward > Said’s > critique of Western classical music as a kind of involuted “samizdat” > (as above, so below…), rings true for my work. I really think that the > distinctions that defined most of the 20 ^th century are almost gone. > Technology has moved far more quickly to transform our social > structures > than anyone could have anticipated. Dj culture accepts this and > celebrates this kind of phenomenon precisely because it’s not linked > to > the production of objects – it’s obsessed with continuous > transformation, and that’s where I live. In total flux. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: You are intrigued by Antarctica’s geopolitical exception – > its > lack of indigenous and its never-nationalized status now under the > 1959 > Antarctic Treaty System. I see this reflected in your playful echo of > the title of a 1981 novel by John Calvin Bachelor, /The People’s > Republic of Antarctica/ , in your marvelous poster series. How do you > see Antarctica -- as an exception to global politics? A > demonstration of > alternative possibilities to history? An opportunity for fantasy? What > vision of propaganda and history inspired the poster series? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > If you look at the 20 ^th century advertising, as Sigmund Freud’s > nephew > Edward Bernays, who coined the term “public relations,” was the hidden > architecture holding both capitalism and communism together. Everyone > had to get their message out! Whether it was Stalin who said that > “engineers are poets of the soul” or Chairman Mao, who put teachers in > chains and paraded them as false prophets, the kind of “stay on > message” > type ethos dominated the media discourse of every nation. With my > “Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica” print design > projects > and my film projects – I simply ask the question: what if the nation > state went away? What centrifuge would we all then call home? What > would > be the point of looking at the state as a kind of generative > architecture? Would who be commissioning the designs, who would be > fostering the arts? The answer: corporations. I use the ironic motif > of > stuff like the British East India company or some of the ways that we > have corporate sponsorship of exploration/high endurance sports etc as > examples. If you look at Rodchenko’s designs or Malevich’s early > minimalism, you can see an echo of that in my work – the revolution > for > the U.S. after the fall of the Berlin Wall was untrammeled capitalism. > Look around and see what it’s done for us! The only competing ideology > at this point is radical Islam. I’m not so sure that people would like > to embrace Sharia economics, but if they look at the Middle East, > there’s lots of solid banking going on (unlike Wall street this > week). I > guess you could say that my work is kind of an aesthetic futures > market > where any sound can be you. That’s what sampling is about. The Terra > Nova and Manifesto for a People’s Republic of Antarctica projects are > mirrors held up to a world that is melting. I don’t knowabout you, > but > I think it’s a pretty strange mirror to see oneself in. I read John > Calvin Bathelor’s book and enjoyed it, but aside from “sampling” the > title (I do this a lot!), there’s not much of a connection – except > that > his book is a meditation on the end of norms of governance. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: > > How are you creating the sounds of Antarctica? What is the technical > process and how does it reflect Antarctic representation, its > challenges, and its history? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: My gallery installation at Robert Miller Gallery and Irvine > Fine Arts is loosely based on the “false” story of Frederick A. Cook – > who went North. “The Truth about the Pole” (1912) was a self- > promotional > docudrama in which producer Frederick A. Cook sought to have himself > treated as a heroic adventurer who discovered the North Pole, a claim > he'd been making since 1909. No director wanted credit for making it. > Cook plays the starring role as himself. There is at least one > appealing > set that attempts to be naturalistic, showing a frozen ship in the > distant background. Mostly it all looks pretty hooky. It's interesting > how little one needs for a quick jaunt to the Pole, a log-book, > sled, & > American flag being the whole of it. All one requires to recover from > such an easy stroll is a nice wooden hut & one sip of coffee from a > tin > cup. A silent film villain, Harry Whitney, is the evil scoundrel who > started the rumor that Cook's former claim to have climbed Mt McKinley > was a fabrication. This was (according to the revisions proposed by > his > film) Whitney's newest salvo in a campaign to make Cook's polar > expedition appear to have been a hoax. I think it’s hilarious – I > repurpose this kind of thing, and flip it into Southern perspective. > Who > owns the ice? Who owns the memory of the ice? My composition for the > installation at the galleries is based on gamelan music from the > idea of > “shadow theater” mixed with string arrangements taken from my score to > Terra Nova. Debussy after all, was inspired by gamelan, and I guess > you > could say ambient electronic music is about as “impressionist” > composition as you can get. I like the idea of ambiguity. It keeps you > on your feet, makes you think about paradox and the digital world of > relativity we live in today. When I went to Antarctica I wanted to > have > a place where there was essentially a fresh perspective and where I > really needed to think about how I would interact with the environment > in a way that would free up some of the issues that drive normal hip > hop. The sounds in my projects come from nature – wind, water, the > noise > of feet walking on ice… my project takes those sounds and uses them as > an acoustic palette. I mixed and remixed the material to the point > that > bass lines come from wind and water movement, and the sound of human > breath can be a motif made into some kind of strange pattern. The > score > for “Terra Nova” was written in a much more conventional way, but > that’s > why I like to say I’m into paradox. You could almost say that the > score > for Terra Nova is neo-Baroque, just on the edge of when everyone > thought > that the Age of Reason had dealt a death blow to superstition in > Europe. > Try telling that to Sarah Palin! I guess you could say that my project > is about the “sound of science.” > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: I’m struck by the influence of Gore’s documentary /An > Inconvenient Truth/ on subsequent representation of the Antarctic. I’m > thinking in particular of all the computer graphic simulations of > melting ice sheets in a pristine and remote Antarctic and the > resultant > rises in sea levels of very well known urban locations. Do you see > your > work in such a context of politicized – or catastrophic - simulation? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > I’m a big Paul Virilio fan…. Let’s call Terra Nova in terms of theory > speak (it’s just a different pidgin language after all): > trajectories of > the catastrophic, or pure war. Antarctica isn’t a place: it’s a > location. It’s kind of like saying Buddhism isn’t a religion: it’s a > philosophy. Everyone knows that, but they still get it wrong. I always > try to get people to think about conceptual frames of reference: > context > is important in my work, and so is content. How do you establish an > uneasy tension between context and content when everything can be > remixed and changed, and there’s no final “version” of anything? In my > film “Terra Nova” that kind of graphic design imprint is crucial to > how > the story is told. If you look at the old Terra Nova expedition of > Robert Scott, you can only think: wouldn’t it have been great if they > had satellite footage to tell them they weren’t that deep into the > ice, > and to compare some different routes to get out of the drift their > ship > was caught in. Stuff like Apsley Cherry Garrad’s infamous “The Worst > Journey in The World” where he says “Polar exploration is at once the > cleanest and most isolated way of having a bad time that has ever been > devised,” is one of the most succinct ways one could put this simple > observation. Melting ice sheets look cool, but then again, so do solar > flares on the surface of the sun. They’re both harmful… but hey.. art > makes things look cool. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: Your film will be debuting at the democratic convention in > August. How exciting. Obama will presumably see it. What would you > like > him to see, to respond to, and to promote in his election platform > (and > possible administration)? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > I really think it’s time to say goodbye to the 20 ^th century. So yes, > the Obama convention with Dialog City as the focal point for the > contemporary art scene was a breath of fresh air for me. I really > liked > premiering my film at the Denver Opera House. The Colorado art scene > is > a lot more progressive than NY! I think Obama will probably be one of > the greenest presidents since Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the > White > House. The Republicans went crazy, but in hindsight, it was really > really really cool. I like stuff like that – that’s why I premiered > Terra Nova at the Democrats convention.I think of Terra Nova as a > reflection site – a location for the politics of perception that we > use > to look at the environment. > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: Antarctica and in particular the South Pole have been > fantasy > objects for US and European imperialism since the early 1900s. Authors > populated the unknown south with wishful fantasies of lost races, > arable > lands, and mineral wealth. Postcolonial nations such as Argentina, > Chile, and even Malaysia have fought and argued to be included among > the > arbiters of Antarctica’s possible riches. How do you negotiate > nationalism and the history of imperialism in your own approach to the > territory? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > You really have to think about Antarctica as a “possible terrain” – > it’s > a surface we project on, but it doesn’t reflect us back. I always > think > of the phrase Bruce Sterling says: the suicide bomber is the poor mans > cruise missile. There’s always going to be conflict over resources as > long as people think everything is completely limited. The weird thing > about the 21 ^st century is that we have perspective. That’s something > the warring empires of the past didn’t. We have history, comparative > science, and above all, a sense of urgency with regard to global > warming. And guess what – we still can’t get it together. Some of the > best recent films dealing with Antarctica: Werner Herzog’s “Encounters > at The End of The World” or the anti-whaling film “At the Edge of the > World” both have this kind of “rebel/misfit scientist” take on the > expatriate community that lives in Antarctica. The cracks in the > mirror > are where some of the best images are to be found. Antarctica, for me, > is just a really big crack in the way we look at the land claims of > the > “great nations” – I really think that my film project is a cinema- > scape > in the same tradition of Nam Jun Paik, John Cage’s “Imaginary > Landscape” > or Edgar Varese and Scriabin’s visual essays turned into sound. > Imperialism is such a concrete process: take the land, brainwash the > natives, make the people back home think it’s all being done in their > name… The problem with the 21 ^st century for that kind of schemata is > that no one really believes it any more. It’s just one fiction of > many. > I tend to think that that’s a good thing. It’s time for a fresh > kaleidoscope! We need more paradox than we can possibly know right > now. > And Antarctica is the place to manifest that kind of paradox. After > all, > it’s the end of the world. I want us to look over the edge… > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: > > The majority of people on earth will never come near Antarctica. How > do > you want them to think of their relation to this remote and highly > mediated territory? Do you feel that you’re operating with a (excuse > the > phrase) blank screen, or do preconceptions of the region cloud > collective action? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > How do people hear Antarctica? It’s a question that lingers over this > interview. Unmoored, unleashed, free floating - sampling derives it's > sense of free cut and paste aesthetics from the interplay of the > kind of > "rip, mix, and burn" scenario of the 21st century's information > economy. > But there are so many cultural resonances that kick in when we think > about "appropriation art." I love to throw in allusions and word > play – > it mirrors what I do with sound, so excuse the aside: In 1964 Ralph > Ellison, one of my favorite writers, read a statement at the Library > Of > Congress about the possibility of an artform made of fragments. The > lecture was called "Hidden Name and Complex Fate" and basically it > was a > manifesto about a series of poems and music that was made into a "mix" > of music that influenced him. It was kind of a "sonic memorial" made > of > fragments from artists and composers as diverse as Duke Ellington, > Louis > Armstrong, Bessie Smith, Mahalia Jackson - but the selection was meant > to be a literary scenario that evoked music as a kind of text. > > Of the jazz legends he invoked in his discussion, he simply wrote that > "the end of all this discipline and technical mastery was the desire > to > express an affirmative way of life through its musical tradition... > Life > could be harsh, loud and wrong if it wished, but they lived it fully, > and when they expressed their attitude toward the world it was with a > fluid style that reduced the chaos of living to form." As an artist, > writer, and musician, this kind of hybridity is something that > drives my > work. I'm inspired by the destruction of old, boring, ways of thinking > and feeling, by the casting into the flames of obsolence all the > stupid > old categories that people use to hold the world back from the > interplay > of uncontrolled "mixing." Yeah, I say - we need to mix and remix > everything. There is no final version of anything once it's digital. > Is > this a mirror we can hold up to society in the era of information > overload? Dj mixes, freeware, open source media... yeah - they say > it is > possible. Antarctica is a realm of possibility because put simply, > very > few people are aware of its story. That in itself is a rare and > elusive > quality that the beginning of the 21 ^st century has brought front and > center into modern perspective: there’s strength in invisibility. You > have to think of the landscape and the way artists interact with it. > John Cage’s “Imaginary Landscape” from 1939 was composed of records > playing frequencies. But if you fast forward to his composition “In a > Landscape” from 1948, you can easily see early taste for percussion > instruments and "found sounds," as well as his interest in embedded, > recursive rhythmic structures, while the last two of the series, > composed in 1951 and 1952, exhibit the influences of Cage's > experiments > with various kinds of pre-compositional chance operations. I think > that > is what resonates with Antarctica for me: the space to be sonically > free. After all: it’s the only place on Earth with no government. > What’s > the soundtrack to that? > > Elena Glasberg > > Question: > > Most reporting on Antarctica these days tends toward the catastrophic: > ice melting, penguins starving, and now oil prices so high that > scientific research programs themselves are financially threatened > with > extinction. What’s your main message amid this noise? And what if, > anything, do you think is the greatest threat to Antarctica > directly? To > the globe more generally? > > Paul D. Miller > > Response: > > See above! > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From navayana at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 11:01:04 2008 From: navayana at gmail.com (Navayana Publishing) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:01:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Navayana Fellowships for Diversity in Publishing Message-ID: *Avarna * Navayana Fellowships For Diversity in Publishing Navayana, award-winning publisher on anticaste issues, seeks to facilitate the training of five dalits/adivasis through the PG Certificate Course in Editing and Publishing conducted by the School of Cultural Texts and Records (SCTR), Jadavpur University, Kolkata. Known as Edit-Pub, this four-month self-financed course, in its fourth year now, has had a successful rate of placement (75 percent) in the publishing industry. Navayana's Avarna program will be a pioneering initiative towards ensuring editorial diversity in the publishing industry in India. Dalit and adivasi applicants, below 35 years of age, must email their CVs along with a 300-word note on their interest in books and why they wish to pursue a career in publishing to avarna.navayana at gmail.com before 28 November 2008. Ten short-listed applicants have to appear for a screening test on 22 December 2008 in Kolkata. Candidates from outside Kolkata will be provided return train fare (second class) to attend the test. Five of these candidates, selected by SCTR for the Navayana Fellowship, will each receive a stipend of Rs 5,000 per month. Navayana will cover the course fees. Navayana will also make efforts to ensure the placement of successful candidates in mainstream/alternative publishing houses. Course period: January–April 2009. For more details www.navayana.org or editpub.blogspot.com Applications can also be posted to Navayana, E-92, 2nd Floor, Saket, New Delhi–17 From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 12:15:18 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Say BIG NO to Diwali" In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30810260554p79c01340lecffbd017742f845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <220907.95434.qm@web45516.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> As there is no need to respond for this kind of mails, but as this contain lot of false ,hatred data/contents and angust, I just try to clarify     Its better to think,read, write about the things that are possible practically. Shivam I have a doubt?  Why do you call that pradeep as a Dalit?  Shivam aur Tapas tum log naam badal do yaar sab ko acha lagta hain.      The KSHATRIY(2nd Hindu caste out of the 4) PRINCE GAUTAMA/SIDHARTHA RAN OUT OF HIS VARNA,ASHRAMA DHARMAS(Responsibilities). He is so sensitive and chooses night time to leave everything(kingdom,parents,wife,son) to achieve enlightenment. Gautam Budda is the 9th avatar of VISHNU, Hence as per the time Buddism is not a separate religion but its a part and parcel of Hindu religion.  Next Hindu religion is some thing beyond BRAHMINS not only you but everybody must understand.  BRAHMINS practiced the religion mostly.      Who is BALI  a demon(RAKSHAS/ASURA) king(not a tribal king because there are no DALITS exists at that time but only caste that exist is SHUDRA) and who is his guru(master) Shukracharya a BRAHMIN, tried to save him.  As everybody suffered with Bali activities,  VISHNU TOOK BIRTH AS VAMAN and restored the peace.  During the process SHUKRACHARYA lost his eye.  Both VISHNU and BALI are very much safe in the history. VISHNU TOOK FURTHER AVATARS to maintain peace and BALI remembered till the date on MAKAR SANKRAMAN(SANKRANTHI).   The existing things of the time are 1.SURA 2.ASURA 3.BRAHMIN,KSHYATRIY,VAISYA,SHUDRA castes 4.DEMI GODS LIKE GANDHARV,YAKSH,KINNER,KIMPURUSH 5.HOLY TREES KALPA VRUKSH AND KAMADHENU like that................       Hence in GEETA, Krishna(avatar or vishnu) SAID,            YADA YADA HI DHARMASYA GLANIRBHAVATI BHARATA      ABHUTHANAM ADHARMASYA TADATMANAM SRIJAMYAHAM!        PARITRANAYA SADHUNAM VINASAYACHA DUSHKRUTAM      DHARMA SAMSTHAPA NARDHAYA SAMBHAVAMI YUGE YUGE!   Also WHETHER ANYBODY LIKE IT/FOND OF OR NOT, IT DOESN'T MATTER BUT BHAGAVAN VISHNU IS FOND OF BRAHMINS.   >From Vishnu sahasranam:   brahmanyo brahmakrit brahmaa brahma brahmavivardhanah brahmavid braahmano brahmee brahmagno braahmanapriyah.   the meaning of these 10 words:   1.He that is the foremost object of silent recitation, of sacrifice, of the Vedas, and of all     religious acts 2.He that is the Creator of penances and the like 3.He that is the form of (the grandsire) Brahma 4.The Biggest, the Vastest, the All-pervading 5.He that is the augmentor of penances 6.He that is conversant with Brahma 7.He that is the form of Brahmana (Brahmin) 8.He that has for His limbs Him that is called Brahma 9.He that knows all the Vedas and everything in the universe 10.He that is always fond of Brahmanas (Brahmins) and of whom the Brahmanas      (Brahmins) also are fond        To understand the greatness and spirit your life mylife and any body else life is not sufficient hence I request to please stop gossips.  Nothing much.    Regards, Dhatri. A PRACTITIONER!  --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Shivam Vij शिवम् wrote: From: Shivam Vij शिवम् Subject: [Reader-list] "Say BIG NO to Diwali" To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 6:24 PM Dear friends, Given below is an article by a Dalit Buddhist that some of you may find interesting. best shivam o o o o o o Say BIG NO to Diwali By Pardeep Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them. – James Baldwin "History of India is nothing but the battle between Buddhism & Brahmanism." – Dr. B R Ambedkar. In India, the so called followers of Hinduism are gullible (naive) people those are following Brahmanism in the form of sugar coated Hinduism. From generation to generation Brahmans have spread many crooked stories to befool masses & to keep Dalit-Bahujans following Brahmanical culture. All these Brahmanical crooked stories have made such a psychological impact over people that they are bound to follow these rituals without knowing the reality behind these fraudulent stories!! Hindus says "Light lamps & Laxmi (money) will flow into your house." How it can be possible scientifically that lighting candles will make money to come? If it would have be true people those are living in remote areas, people those don't have access to electricity would have be millionaire by now, as they use candles for lighting purpose throughout year!! Goddess Laxmi this year might have forgotten the path to India & have made Indian economy to reach lower of the lowest!! Mr. KOVENA rightly said in the book named "The Hidden History" page no. 19 that "Hindu means thief in Persian language & Hinduism mean country of thieves, Hindus feel proud of being thief." Jawaharlal Nehru in his book "Discovery of India" at page no. 204-5 writes that the festivals like Holi, Diwali & Dussehra are imitation of the Greek festivals. At page no. 235, Nehru explains that the Brahmins are not a caste but an organisation who would offer their daughters for the guests. Page no. 37 states "Hinduism as a faith is vague, amorphous, many sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is a religion or not, in the usual sense of the word. In its present form, and even in the past, it embraces many beliefs and practices, from the highest to the lowest, often opposed to or contradicting each other." Here lies the reality of Diwali festival: On this day Great Gana king (tribal) Bali was murdered by Waman- a Brahman by cheating. If people want to celebrate this day, celebrate in the name of King Bali, a Bahujan virtuous king. Bhikhu Mahamodgalyayan was murdered by Brahmans on this day. After murder of Buddhists in the rule of Pushyamitra Shung this day was celebrated as "Eekadashi". Pushyamitra killed many Buddhists monks, destroyed Buddha Vihars, burnt Buddhist literature in 200 BC. Many Buddhist places were converted in Hindu temples. After this Buddhism started diminishing & Brahmanism started strengthening. When Aryans came from Egypt through Iran, China they brought their culture with themselves & the so called "Hindu Vedas" are imitation of Egypt & Iranian books with little bit change in rules. "Ram" on the name of which this festival is celebrated is a fictitious character, even supreme court of India has denied the existence of so called "Ram", hence where lies the logic of Hindus to celebrate? Many scholars do agree that "Pushyamitra Shung" was the so called "Ram Chandar" who imposed many laws on Dalit-Bahujans & stopped their progress. Ramayana was written afterwards to befool non Brahmans. So called "Ram" (Pushyamitra Shung) killed Shudra rishi Shambuk, who was practicing meditation just because he was from lower caste & lower caste people don't have the right to meditate!! Hindus worship Laxmi -- Goddess of Money but the surveys conducted proved that still 77% people are alive on the daily income of Rs.20, what to eat and what to wear?? All other developed countries like US, UK etc there are no god and goddess like Saraswati or Laxmi but still maximum of the population are literate and rich in comparison to India. Hindus have embossed the mental slavery which had shut down all doors to be rational thinking. Apart from above there is increase of Asthma patients by 15% every year because of air pollution, by spending thousands on crackers we are doing nothing but increasing Asthma patients. Also by spending thousands on crackers we hope that Laxmi (money) was come, how it can be possible? The problem with Hindu people is that they never rational and not ready to be literate and this make the Indian heritage rich with poor people rather slaves meant for slavery. "Diwali" is nowhere mentioned in Ramayana of Rishi Valmiki or Tulsidas. But term Diwali find place in Jain books & exact dates are mentioned in Jain scriptures. As Buddha Purnima is celebrated, the day of enlightenment of Lord Buddha same way in Jainism this "Diwali" is a day of nirvana of Lord Mahavira. But now a day's whole motive & real facts have been vanished in time & gullible people are celebrating it with different motive like earning money & to do business. All the fallacious stories – gateway to establish Brahmanical culture & allied fests look harmless when seen be common eye, but in reality these mythical stories are deadliest weapon to destroy Dalit-Bahujans culture & to impose Brahmanical culture. Once Dalit-Bahujans will lose their identity, hence they'll not have any other option than to follow the imposed Brahmanical culture. Hence we should immediately discard the Hindu rituals, ceremonies, pilgrimages, festivals those have made us slaves & we should follow the 22 vows given by Dr. B R Ambedkar if we really want that our Dalit-Bahujan society live with pride & dignity. Pardeep pardeepattri @ yahoo.co.in 26th October 2008 http://www.flickr.com/photos/27315615 at N02/ http://www.youtube.com/dalitjade http://dalitindia.blogspot.com/ Know Buddha, Know Life No Buddha, No Life..! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From difusion at medialab-prado.es Mon Oct 27 17:14:10 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:44:10 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Last days: Call for Collaborators> VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY Message-ID: <4905A98A.6010307@medialab-prado.es> International Project Development Workshop Call for Collaborators VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY *Deadline: October 31, 2008 **Workshop & Seminar: November 3 - 18, 2008 at Medialab-Prado (Madrid, Spain)* * * Medialab-Prado issues a call for all those interested in taking part in the VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY international workshop, by collaborating in any of the teams that will develop the nine selected projects on data visualization applied to the urban context. Visualizar'08 will also include a Seminar Program and a public showcase of the developed prototypes (November 18 through January 11, 2009). Profile of collaborators: maths, computer graphics, 3D, graphic design, web design, advertising, journalism, communication, didactics, web programming, Processing, Actionscript, Java, Javascript, HTML/CSS, design and database programming, PHP and MySQL, OpenVisuals, models of spatial representation, molecular biology, environmental chemistry, toxicology, management of GIS data, parsing of RSS data and google queries, among others. *Call Guidelines and Registration Form (English/Spanish):* http://medialab-prado.es/article/taller_visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_colaboradores *List of selected proposals (English/Spanish):* http://medialab-prado.es/article/visualizar08_proyectos *More information: www.medialab-prado.es/visualizar* -- Nerea García Garmendia Responsable de Comunicación Medialab-Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 914 202 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 19:33:21 2008 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:33:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Projects are not helping the tsunami-hit: NGOs Message-ID: <3457ce860810270703v42f967c6q5d951fc1380deb57@mail.gmail.com> Projects are not helping the tsunami-hit: NGOs Date:25/10/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/10/25/stories/2008102555650700.htm Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: A group of NGOs have criticised the government for diverting funds earmarked for tsunami rehabilitation to tourism sector in the State. Addressing presspersons here, T. Peter, State president of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation, A.R. Sajeer representing Kerala Tourism Watch and Sumesh Mangalassery of Kabani Tour said the 20 tourism projects taken up in Kerala with Central funds under the Tsunami Rehabilitation Project (TRP) violated the guidelines issued by the Planning Commission. They said none of the projects were being implemented in tsunami-affected areas. They said the projects would not benefit local people, particularly the fishing communities who were displaced by the tsunami. They also warned that a section of the fishermen community would even their land and livelihood. "While the projects are being implemented in the name of coastal protection, they are actually for the development of tourism infrastructure and beautification of beaches," Mr. Peter said. "The activities proposed include construction of walkways and amphitheatres and landscaping. The construction of an artificial reef at Kovalam to provide water sports facilities threatens the livelihood of over 500 fishermen. The waves deflected by the reef may cause increased erosion and damage in the neighbouring areas." Mr. Sajeer said the failure to take stakeholders into confidence had led to doubts about the intention. "The Department of Tourism contends that the projects would give jobs to local people through beach tourism. However, tsunami survivors have not been consulted on the role that tourism would play in rebuilding their lives." The NGOs alleged that the Tourism Department had violated Planning Commission stipulations that the funds should be used only for repairing damaged roads, beach resorts and tourist complexes. They also said the project bypassed vulnerable coasts at Alappad and Arattupuzha. Dead fish surge causes alarm Date:25/10/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/10/25/stories/2008102559800300.htm Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: Panic gripped the coastal belt of the city from Pallithura to Poonthura on Friday after large numbers of dead fish were washed ashore. The strong stench of rotting fish pervaded the entire coastal area, sparking fears of a public health hazard. The City Corporation deployed workers to bury the dead fish on the beaches. There was no official response to the incident or the reasons for the mass death of fish. However, the Department of Aquatic Biology under the University of Kerala ruled out the possibility of an algal bloom like the one off the Ramanathapuram coast last week that resulted in the death of marine organisms. Faculty member K. Padmakumar told The Hindu that there were no reports of discoloration of sea water that is typical of an algal bloom or red-tide phenomenon. The fish belong to the Balistidae family of triggerfish that is referred to as 'klaathi' in local parlance. "Though not inedible, the fish is not normally used for consumption because of its strong smell and tough skin that is hard to remove. Based on our interaction with fishermen, we presume that some trawlers had dumped their catch at sea after netting this particular species in large numbers. The dead fish would have been washed ashore," Dr. Padmakumar said. Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation State president T. Peter said 'klaathi' was common in the offshore areas during the season. "They are probably transported here by ocean currents. The disturbance caused by these currents could have disturbed the marine environment, leading to mass mortality of fish. There is also the possibility that trawlers had discarded their catch because the market value of this species is worth almost nothing" he said. Corporation Health Officer Sreekumar said the magnitude of the incident had given rise to apprehensions among the fishermen. "The beaches all along the coast from Pallithura to Poonthura were littered with dead fish since Thursday night. We have taken precautions to prevent a health hazard. The fish are being buried on the beach and workers have been directed to sprinkle bleaching powder in the trenches before filling them up with sand," he said. Dr. Sreekumar said fishermen returning from sea had reported seeing whole shoals of dead fish floating on the surface. "We expect more fish to be washed ashore over the next day," he said. Mayor C. Jayan Babu also visited the coastal areas to supervise the disposal of dead fish. Date:25/10/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/10/25/stories/2008102555650700.htm Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: A group of NGOs have criticised the government for diverting funds earmarked for tsunami rehabilitation to tourism sector in the State. Addressing presspersons here, T. Peter, State president of the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation, A.R. Sajeer representing Kerala Tourism Watch and Sumesh Mangalassery of Kabani Tour said the 20 tourism projects taken up in Kerala with Central funds under the Tsunami Rehabilitation Project (TRP) violated the guidelines issued by the Planning Commission. They said none of the projects were being implemented in tsunami-affected areas. They said the projects would not benefit local people, particularly the fishing communities who were displaced by the tsunami. They also warned that a section of the fishermen community would even their land and livelihood. "While the projects are being implemented in the name of coastal protection, they are actually for the development of tourism infrastructure and beautification of beaches," Mr. Peter said. "The activities proposed include construction of walkways and amphitheatres and landscaping. The construction of an artificial reef at Kovalam to provide water sports facilities threatens the livelihood of over 500 fishermen. The waves deflected by the reef may cause increased erosion and damage in the neighbouring areas." Mr. Sajeer said the failure to take stakeholders into confidence had led to doubts about the intention. "The Department of Tourism contends that the projects would give jobs to local people through beach tourism. However, tsunami survivors have not been consulted on the role that tourism would play in rebuilding their lives." The NGOs alleged that the Tourism Department had violated Planning Commission stipulations that the funds should be used only for repairing damaged roads, beach resorts and tourist complexes. They also said the project bypassed vulnerable coasts at Alappad and Arattupuzha. Dead fish surge causes alarm Date:25/10/2008 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/10/25/stories/2008102559800300.htm Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: Panic gripped the coastal belt of the city from Pallithura to Poonthura on Friday after large numbers of dead fish were washed ashore. The strong stench of rotting fish pervaded the entire coastal area, sparking fears of a public health hazard. The City Corporation deployed workers to bury the dead fish on the beaches. There was no official response to the incident or the reasons for the mass death of fish. However, the Department of Aquatic Biology under the University of Kerala ruled out the possibility of an algal bloom like the one off the Ramanathapuram coast last week that resulted in the death of marine organisms. Faculty member K. Padmakumar told The Hindu that there were no reports of discoloration of sea water that is typical of an algal bloom or red-tide phenomenon. The fish belong to the Balistidae family of triggerfish that is referred to as 'klaathi' in local parlance. "Though not inedible, the fish is not normally used for consumption because of its strong smell and tough skin that is hard to remove. Based on our interaction with fishermen, we presume that some trawlers had dumped their catch at sea after netting this particular species in large numbers. The dead fish would have been washed ashore," Dr. Padmakumar said. Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation State president T. Peter said 'klaathi' was common in the offshore areas during the season. "They are probably transported here by ocean currents. The disturbance caused by these currents could have disturbed the marine environment, leading to mass mortality of fish. There is also the possibility that trawlers had discarded their catch because the market value of this species is worth almost nothing" he said. Corporation Health Officer Sreekumar said the magnitude of the incident had given rise to apprehensions among the fishermen. "The beaches all along the coast from Pallithura to Poonthura were littered with dead fish since Thursday night. We have taken precautions to prevent a health hazard. The fish are being buried on the beach and workers have been directed to sprinkle bleaching powder in the trenches before filling them up with sand," he said. Dr. Sreekumar said fishermen returning from sea had reported seeing whole shoals of dead fish floating on the surface. "We expect more fish to be washed ashore over the next day," he said. Mayor C. Jayan Babu also visited the coastal areas to supervise the disposal of dead fish. From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:06:38 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (taraprakash) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:36:38 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindraf and the supremacy of State (from The Hindu) Message-ID: <60F5DD7083F04469B9DEC834F19D8035@tara> Hindraf and the supremacy of State P. S. Suryanarayana Speculation is rife that the current ban on Hindraf is an aspect of Malaysia's national security update. Of unusual international importance is the fact that Malaysia's Deputy Prime Minister Najib Tun Razak has, with a topical political touch, extended Deepavali greetings to the 'Hindus' among the country's ethnic Indian minority. Unlike in India, where even the greetings of interest to only some sections are extended to all citizens regardless of their sub-national identities, it is customary in Southeast Asia to specify the target group on such occasions. This, of course, is not the real issue at stake now in Muslim-majority and multicultural Malaysia, insofar its two-million-strong ethnic Indians are concerned. The relevant point is that Mr. Najib, who has been designated by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi to succeed him next year, linked the mystique of Deepavali to the challenges faced by the Indian-origin citizens today. Noting that the festival marked a traditional celebration of the triumph of good over evil, Mr. Najib expressed the hope that Malaysian 'Hindus' would, in that "spirit," seek to "resolve any problem in the best way possible." Why has he chosen to strike this line? The answer is not far to seek. Malaysian Indians, many of them mobilised by the recently-banned Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) for over a year now, want to keep their grievances in global focus. And, Mr. Najib is equally determined to reassert the supremacy of the state. The authorities have recently taken actions that the opposition parties in the country see as a political "offensive" against an outfit with "a core human rights agenda." An alternative view, favoured by the Malaysian government, is that Hindraf, which began making its presence felt at the time of Deepavali last year, is divisively communalist, as different from being merely ethno-centric. The country's social contract has fostered power-sharing among race-based political parties that are drawn from the ranks of either Malays or ethnic Chinese or, indeed, the people of Indian origin. However, these predominantly ethno-centric parties have, by and large, fought shy of readily accepting religion as the wellspring of a political or social outfit. Striking example A striking example is the general hostility of race-based parties in the ruling coalition towards Parti Islam-Se Malaysia (PAS). Over a noticeably long period, PAS stridently advocated Shariah-based Muslim polity as the best model for the country. In the run-up to the recent snap general election, though, PAS publicly gave up its political patent - the advocacy of an Islamic state. This aspect clearly helped the fast-changing party endear itself to secular voters across the spectrum. And today, PAS is a proactive member of the three-party opposition alliance, the People's Pact, at the federal and state levels. Two of the Pact's constituents are multi-racial in outlook, while PAS fielded an Indian-origin candidate for a state seat in the last poll. Viewed in this perspective, Hindraf leaders have not tried so far to distance their outfit from its religious mooring. They have instead specialised in using the Hindu temple as "a safe sanctuary" to carry forward their campaign for a "fair deal" for the Indian-origin minority. The temple, they say, is the only platform accessible to them in the face of a "state-sponsored crackdown." Debatable as this argument might be, especially so in the eyes of the Malaysian government, the fact remains that Hindraf, proscribed with effect from October 15, had not adequately disputed its 'religious orientation.' On the other hand, Hindraf activists are often accused of having capitalised on the sentiments that gripped the ethnic Indians when an 'unauthorised' temple was demolished, for 'development' purposes, before Deepavali last year. Soon thereafter, this outfit, led by lawyers and other professionals, began articulating an ethnic Indian political agenda of seeking rights "on par" with those of the other communities. And, after Hindraf's campaign picked up momentum, evident during a mass protest rally in Kuala Lumpur last November, a senior Malaysian Minister apologised for the temple demolition which had served as a 'flash point.' Five proactive Hindraf leaders - P. Uthayakumar, V. Ganapati Rao (also known as Ganabatirau), M. Manoharn, T. Kengadharan, and T. Vasanthakumar - were served with two-year detention orders last December under the Internal Security Act. The law provides for detention for prolonged periods without any formal charges and judicial trial. Another leader, P. Waytha Moorthy, who was abroad at the time his colleagues were detained, remains in self-imposed exile. Political speculation is rife that the current ban on Hindraf is an aspect of Malaysia's national security update, with or without reference to the ongoing preparations for a smooth transfer of power to Mr. Najib. On a parallel track, Opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim has publicised his "plans" to unseat the present Prime Minister and form an alternative administration. Sympathetic to the cause of ethnic Indians, Mr. Anwar wants the equality-agenda articulated in a non-polarising fashion in multi-religious Malaysia. In another development in the opposition camp, PAS, shedding its 'Islam-exclusive' image, has now offered to mediate between Hindraf and the authorities. From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:34:26 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:34:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid In-Reply-To: <515242.4641.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4903619D.5070808@gmail.com> <515242.4641.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810270904j4ecd0795m5d4197c1fa76ab82@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kirdar i guess you could have conveyed your point without this HEADER, even. I guess, you know that Kashmiri pandit as community are not represented by these couple of friends on the List. They are young and angry about the way Kashmiri Pandits had to flee from Kashmir, and had to endure the unwanted migration after hundreds of killings of their near and dear ones, besides loss of property and dignity. And, i guess it will be another unnecessary provocation if the migration is seen as Jagmohan's conspiracy. yes, These ( KP friends ) simply want to speak all the time about that only, as and when KASHMIR or anything which is linked to Indian or Global Terrorism. They simply want an all time attention like a small baby. That is the only way I can understand their presence on the list. If we divide the KP and non-KP in kashmir, Kashmiri pandits once used to laugh at anything called BJP or Sang parivar. Only less shallow minded amongst KP's would try to represent Hindutva in Kashmir. Once KP's intellectual community was proudly Left oriented, and had produced wonderful poets and writers in Kashmir. One of the towering poets and intellectual was Dina Nath Nadim. Pandits used to vote Congress party,as and when they got a chance to vote in Kashmir. Needless to say, that KP is/was a Nationalist by birth.....etc... you know, their Nehru and all that... Well, 1990 changed a lot. with the killing of Leftist poet Ranjoor, the moderate voices were silenced or were scared to speak. The exodus was part of the design, and it was inevitable that the migration of KP's resulted into their change of hearts. BJP was waiting for them in Jammu, and certainly exploited their situation to the best of their needs. We know, how it happens, for example, USA state secretary would find it necessary to pass a comment during Hazratbal crises....there are lot of axes around which grind, and grind they do... The other side of coin is that Hindu population of Jammu never found this 'HIndu' word significant enough for this running kashmiri population for some political or economic merger in jammu.. Given the scenario, the Jammu ( Hindu/Dogra ) politics never allowed KP employees even to join the Govt offices in Jammu ( that is within the sate )..... Why i am saying here all this is because KP community is well aware about the masks on the Hindutva (BJP etc ) face. i believe... we know how 'the present' is conducive to political opportunism, and KPs are not the exception, right now they want benefits for their well being, and do not mind if they are seen as Right winger or whatever. That is how i see it. The problem emerges, when only these young KP boys speak HIs-Masters voice, and believe this is intellectual freedom. And that is unlikely, since a genuine intellectual voice has to rise, all and above, first to save her/his skin from this community infection, and then utter the vision, if any... I dont know if it is true, but the following is attributed to Dr. Iqbal ( great poet ) : 'you are likely to nurse your own mother first if the other's mother is suffering next to her. This was, in response to a question that why he is too concerned about Muslims only. Whether it is true or not, but logically we all can fall into this trap of community feeling, which often happens at the cost of ethics and other such universal human values. having said that, i believe, there are other voices within the KP as well, which may not be seen here on the list, but are, for example. Dr. Hangloo, whom Murtaza Shibli of Kashmir Affairs admires a lot. with love and regards inder salim P.S. just recent action against Death Sentence in colloboration with Amenesty International India at Indian Gate , i was asked repeatedly by journalists that why we should not hang a rapist or a murderer or a terrorist. In Tilak Nagar police station, SHO/ACP too asked the same question. The answer is that, the whole lot of violence is full of a strange complexity........ And, here, needless to say that Bush is thousand times more a terrorist than a small time terrorist, but we dont have a mechanism to hang a Bush or a Blair, but we have all the anger, and law/police even, against this small time terrorist. Haven't we seen a constable beating a small time thief mercilessly in the public domain, which is again the law. The question is how draw a comparative chart between a small time thief and a big but clever clandestine, who can kill, loot and rape and even get away with all that crime. Imagine,the industrialists who manufactures fake medicines in india and have all the decent life available to them. Imagine, that all the bourgeoisie ( not anti-left ) is part of that big nexus of IWC ( integrated world capitalism ) which is giving a hell lot of indifference to the millions of underprivileged on this earth. How to speak on that ? Back again; these young KP guys are basically too focused on these small time thieves and dont want, even to touch, that big big gangsters. For example, Mrs Indira Gandhi during Emergency was nothing but a mafia Don, but how to talk about that.... How to talk about Advani-Modi-Atal who have a cruel desire to come to power through their Hindutva agenda. These KP guys need to know that they are but a small straw in their game plan, but who knows, may one of them will be a Mantri ( minsiters ) after couple of years... so without malice towards one and all. On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 6:31 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or "Pseudo-secular" or "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of Humanism? > > Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. > > You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown on this List by KPs if instead of that idiotic term of 'migration' you see the reality of the Internal Displacement that took place. > > You might better understand the frustrations when you recognise that a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set, removed from the Land where it should exist for it's continuation and evolvement, is on the verge of extinction because of the Internal Displacemernt from it's nurturing environment. > > I am always amazed that people who can be highly sensitive to various Displacements (Tribal, Forest etc) and sensitive to to sub-sets of species becoming extinct (Turtles, Deer, Tigers etc) have a completely different (contradictory and hypocritical) attitude if the 'on verge of extinction' Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set of Kashmiri Pandits is brought to their notice. > > I will be the first one to admit that the issues concerning Kashmiri Pandits are not presented in the most appealing manner. That does not take away from the seriousness of the issue. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:42 PM > > Kirdar, > > These people are simply using the migration issue to foist the Hindutva > agenda on this list and to wreck it if they can't. So, I am afraid your > logic will have no effect. > > People who do this sort of thing, are not the kind this list is meant > for. If they don't shape up, they will have to ship out - or be shipped > out - eventually. > > Tapas > > > Kirdar wrote: >> One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > honestly. >> There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and >> displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life >> moves on, yaar. >> >> I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, >> are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living >> on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of >> cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present >> houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you >> live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above >> is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? >> >> Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference >> or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya >> mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came >> to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no >> space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? >> >> Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the >> moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are >> we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any >> other sane topic on this list. >> >> So, please get the hell out of here. >> >> (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody >> please write my obituary on Sarai) >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 21:42:54 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <4904A559.4010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tapas   The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in PRIVATE as we did some earlier.   I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register my thoughts on this topic.   You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is common currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does not describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen through the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. There was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed to do so.   I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy.   The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the slow but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are on this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'.   Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a Shivam or that Inder Salim.   You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or Politico-Religious ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members of the KP community through practical action.   It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the "Hindutva" agenda.   I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the simple reason that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or acts in a manner that promotes or will  lead to disintegration of India is an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit.   At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not Tapas) do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different opinions' it suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the swords.   Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a Hindutva Vaadi?   Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously disguised it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable than attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda?   It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List pay attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but everyone else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam.   There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) Rajendra Bhat.   Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse and discuss without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few.     Kshmendra (yet another moron)   --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM Kshemendra, I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), and take your criticism seriously. You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate their situation. I apologise for that. However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that their plight was similar to those Palestinians who have been forced into exile. Of course, the Palestinian refugees have to live in foreign lands - Jordan, Lebanon, etc. - where the local populations, despite being Muslims and Arabs like themselves, are not particularly welcoming towards them, while the KPs and other Kashmiri displaced are refugees in their own land. I have never said that anyone who speaks for the Kashmiri refugees is a Hindu fundamentalist. You have spoken for them if I remember, but I do not consider you as someone who even remotely resembles Aditya, Pawan, etc. At least that is the impression I have gathered from those posts I have read, which are probably fewer than those I haven't been able to read. But I cannot stress enough that the others not only are the foot soldiers of Hindutva but soldiers with fascist tendencies if not outright fascists. I have come to that conclusion from the totality of their posts, not just their support for the KPs' cause. My understanding is that these people are exploiting KPs in the Parivar's interest and damaging the KPs' cause by doing that. In other words, for those of them who are KPs themselves, Hindutva is more important than the interests of those members of their own community who are less fortunate than themselves. Tapas Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such > voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or "Pseudo-secular" or > "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of Humanism? > > Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a > person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. > > You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown on this List > by KPs if instead of that idiotic term of 'migration' you see the > reality of the Internal Displacement that took place. > > You might better understand the frustrations when you recognise that a > Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set, removed from the Land > where it should exist for it's continuation and evolvement, is on the > verge of extinction because of the Internal Displacemernt from it's > nurturing environment. > > I am always amazed that people who can be highly sensitive to various > Displacements (Tribal, Forest etc) and sensitive to to sub-sets of > species becoming extinct (Turtles, Deer, Tigers etc) have a completely > different (contradictory and hypocritical) attitude if the 'on verge of > extinction' Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set of Kashmiri Pandits > is brought to their notice. > > I will be the first one to admit that the issues concerning Kashmiri > Pandits are not presented in the most appealing manner. That does not > take away from the seriousness of the issue. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll > commit suicide > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:42 PM > > Kirdar, > > These people are simply using the migration issue to foist the Hindutva > agenda on this list and to wreck it if they can't. So, I am afraid your > logic will have no effect. > > People who do this sort of thing, are not the kind this list is meant > for. If they don't shape up, they will have to ship out - or be shipped > out - eventually. > > Tapas > > > Kirdar wrote: > > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > honestly. > > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > > moves on, yaar. > > > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > > other sane topic on this list. > > > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > > please write my obituary on Sarai) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 21:42:54 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide In-Reply-To: <4904A559.4010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Tapas   The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in PRIVATE as we did some earlier.   I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register my thoughts on this topic.   You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is common currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does not describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen through the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. There was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed to do so.   I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy.   The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the slow but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are on this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'.   Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a Shivam or that Inder Salim.   You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or Politico-Religious ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members of the KP community through practical action.   It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the "Hindutva" agenda.   I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the simple reason that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or acts in a manner that promotes or will  lead to disintegration of India is an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit.   At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not Tapas) do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different opinions' it suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the swords.   Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a Hindutva Vaadi?   Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously disguised it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable than attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda?   It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List pay attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but everyone else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam.   There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) Rajendra Bhat.   Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse and discuss without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few.     Kshmendra (yet another moron)   --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM Kshemendra, I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), and take your criticism seriously. You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate their situation. I apologise for that. However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that their plight was similar to those Palestinians who have been forced into exile. Of course, the Palestinian refugees have to live in foreign lands - Jordan, Lebanon, etc. - where the local populations, despite being Muslims and Arabs like themselves, are not particularly welcoming towards them, while the KPs and other Kashmiri displaced are refugees in their own land. I have never said that anyone who speaks for the Kashmiri refugees is a Hindu fundamentalist. You have spoken for them if I remember, but I do not consider you as someone who even remotely resembles Aditya, Pawan, etc. At least that is the impression I have gathered from those posts I have read, which are probably fewer than those I haven't been able to read. But I cannot stress enough that the others not only are the foot soldiers of Hindutva but soldiers with fascist tendencies if not outright fascists. I have come to that conclusion from the totality of their posts, not just their support for the KPs' cause. My understanding is that these people are exploiting KPs in the Parivar's interest and damaging the KPs' cause by doing that. In other words, for those of them who are KPs themselves, Hindutva is more important than the interests of those members of their own community who are less fortunate than themselves. Tapas Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such > voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or "Pseudo-secular" or > "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of Humanism? > > Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a > person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. > > You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown on this List > by KPs if instead of that idiotic term of 'migration' you see the > reality of the Internal Displacement that took place. > > You might better understand the frustrations when you recognise that a > Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set, removed from the Land > where it should exist for it's continuation and evolvement, is on the > verge of extinction because of the Internal Displacemernt from it's > nurturing environment. > > I am always amazed that people who can be highly sensitive to various > Displacements (Tribal, Forest etc) and sensitive to to sub-sets of > species becoming extinct (Turtles, Deer, Tigers etc) have a completely > different (contradictory and hypocritical) attitude if the 'on verge of > extinction' Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set of Kashmiri Pandits > is brought to their notice. > > I will be the first one to admit that the issues concerning Kashmiri > Pandits are not presented in the most appealing manner. That does not > take away from the seriousness of the issue. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll > commit suicide > To: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:42 PM > > Kirdar, > > These people are simply using the migration issue to foist the Hindutva > agenda on this list and to wreck it if they can't. So, I am afraid your > logic will have no effect. > > People who do this sort of thing, are not the kind this list is meant > for. If they don't shape up, they will have to ship out - or be shipped > out - eventually. > > Tapas > > > Kirdar wrote: > > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit suicide, > honestly. > > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured and > > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but life > > moves on, yaar. > > > > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from Kashmir, > > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you living > > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of > > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your present > > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment as you > > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the above > > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? > > > > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a conference > > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in Chinmaya > > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit came > > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was no > > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? > > > > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At the > > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor are > > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also discuss any > > other sane topic on this list. > > > > So, please get the hell out of here. > > > > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody > > please write my obituary on Sarai) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 22:01:33 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:01:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Karan Thappar Interviews Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70810270931n4de70920j608d7d5edc24c763@mail.gmail.com> thanks dear Naeem i see TV rarely, so it was indeed a pleasure reading the interview sanity thy name is arundhati roy, this is what i can say in the least. the other thing ...those who oppose Roy ought to learn from Karan how to differ, and yet remain respectful to the other. with love is On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > Interview with Arundhati by Karan Thappar in IBN > Communal Profiling of 150 Million Muslims in India > > *Karan Thapar:* * Hello and welcome to *Devil's Advocate*. Why is Arundhati > Roy angry with the police and upset with the press? That's the key issue I > shall explore today. Arundhati Roy, let's start with the recent encounter in > Jamia Nagar in New Delhi. You've called for an independent judicial enquiry > headed by a Supreme Court judge. Why do you involve yourself into this work? > What's your locus standi? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, I am just one of those thousands of people who are > asking some very serious questions of the police. The trouble is that you > know, even if you wanted to believe this police version, you don't know > which police version to believe. Does one believe the Bombay police, the UP > police, the Gujarat police or the Delhi police? All of them have different > versions. There's a blizzard of masterminds. The Additional Commissioner of > Mumbai police, Rakesh Maria recently said that Tauqeer, who is the Delhi > police's mastermind of Indian Mujahideen, is a media creation. The point is > who creates the media creations? Is it the media or the police or do they > work together? > > *Karan Thapar:* * So, you are motivated by these contradictions. Is that the > sole reason you need a judicial enquiry headed by a Supreme Court judge?* > > *Arundhati Roy:* Again, it is not just me. It was thousands of people who > are saying one thing, you know. When the police have killed people, it > ceases to be a neutral party. It cannot have an impartial investigation in > its own actions. And there are so many serious questions about what happened > at Batla House. > > *Karan Thapar:* * But before we come to those questions, let me point out > what many people will be thinking at this moment. They are going to ask why > do you think will an encounter, when a senior police officer like MC Sharma > is killed and another injured would be fake. The police would not endanger > themselves in a fake and fraudulent incident. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, historically the police and security agencies the > world over have done things like that. I am not saying it is fake. I am > saying lets have an enquiry because this matter of MC Sharma, for instance > would be cleared up if they would only produce the post-mortem report. > Instead the post-mortem report is leaked in various ways and *Mail > Today*says that he was shot from behind. Praveen Swami (of the daily > *The Hindu*) says he was shot from two sides. The residents say that the > police arrived and that there were drills and that they are making holes in > the flat now. Why cannot all this be cleared up? If they would just produce > the reports, which even the Magistrate asked for, and has put out a warrant > for investigating officer and they still haven't produced it. > > *Karan Thapar:* * As you speak, I get the impression that your whole premise > is that you don't trust the police. Millions of Indians do. Is it fitting > and fair that you should question their veracity in this way when you know > that it would not just demoralise them but it would seriously undermine > their struggle to contain terror? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well. Millions of Indians do not trust the police. Is our > choice not to question them because here we are talking about the communal > profiling of a hundred and fifty million people, demoralising them, > radicalising a whole generation and asking serious questions of a story that > is told to us that is full of holes? Especially because such a senior police > officer died in the incident, why should we not clear it up for the sake of > police itself? > > *Karan Thapar:* * Let me for a moment play Devil's Advocate and point out to > you evidence that you are deliberately ignoring. AK-47s were found in Batla > House, so were two pistols. Policemen were shot at, policemen were killed. > Atif's name appears in the Ahmedabad, Mumbai and UP police findings. Now, > most recently, it transpires that Atif's degree from Allahabad is a fake. > Why aren't you giving the police, as anyone else will, the benefit of the > doubt? The evidence suggests that there is something suspicious, that there > is a case. Why do you doubt it? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Let enquiry clear it up. Even in the case of these > recoveries, you know, there is a serious procedural lapse. When the police > make recoveries at the scene of the crime, they should have independent > witnesses corroborating it. They didn't, like in the case of the Parliament > attack. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Isn't it possible that people are scared to come forth? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* No, but they have to get the seizure memo signed, right? > And even the magistrate is asking for all these documents, for the FIR, the > post mortem report, for the case diary not being produced. Now, let me ask > some questions about Atif. The reports in the media given out by the police > say that they have had him under surveillance since July 17. If so, then how > was he allowed to plant these bombs in September? And even when they say > that they had him under surveillance, they say that his number was called by > a number, which was called by another number. I mean, c'mon, that's a lead, > not proof that someone is a terrorist. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Maybe the surveillance wasn't effective. Maybe the police > are exaggerating that they had him under surveillance. What about the other > evidence that the police have brought into the public domain? It transpires > that clips of the car that was used in the Ahmedabad bombings were found > inside Atif's mobile, it transpires that literature of al-Qaeda was found at > Batla House. It seems that even Saif has been using an assumed name. He has > been travelling under a false identity calling himself Rohan Sharma. He even > had that gentleman's voter identity card with him. None of these is > suggestive or corroborated but you are dismissing it as otherwise. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* I am not dismissing it. If there is an enquiry, all this > will also be a part of it. I am not dismissing they may be real terrorists. > There are real terrorists, who are they? Are these boys the real ones? While > the police are giving us evidence, there are also strange stories floating > around. The police have been using the media to put out stories. All this is > very disturbing and all this could be cleared out. > > *Karan Thapar:* * See, if I understand you correctly, there are two things > you want clarified. One is that you want the questions and the > inconsistencies in the police stories clarified because they suggest that > the police hadn't got a clear cut case. And the second thing is that you > want to try and get at the proof that establishes that the police had good > reason to suspicious of the people. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Exactly! Even their own versions are contradicting each > other. On the one hand they say that you know, we did not know that they > were terrorists and that is why we went in, in this casual manner. But the > minute something came up they come out and say that these were the > masterminds. There are so many things, you know. They say that people were > killed in the crossfire but the proof is that these two men were killed > while they were kneeling with shots in their head. > > *Karan Thapar:* * That's an assumption, I must point out! * > > *Arundhati Roy:* No, there are pictures. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Suggested. But we do not have the corroboration from the > police. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* The police should show the post mortem report but we see it > from the photographs. > > *Karan Thapar:* * You know what? Listening to you, people will say, and I am > repeating what I have said to you earlier! They will say that her problem > arises from the fact that she does not trust the police. Is it right that > you should have such serious doubts about them? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Not just rights, I think its our duty to have serious > doubts and especially today, when we are sliding quickly into fascism and > terrorism. It's our business as members of civil society to ask hard > questions. > > *Karan Thapar:* * In which case, what are you suspecting the police…or let > me put me more strongly and bluntly. What are you accusing the police of, on > this issue? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, primarily of giving us a story that doesn't hold > together and insults our intelligence. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Why would they do this? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* I don't know. That's what we would like to know. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Is it not possible that they have got it right and you > have doubts about them? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Maybe! But an enquiry would show that, wouldn't it? The > more they block it, refuse to produce the post mortem. The more they > subterfuge and obfuscate their way through this, the more people will get > suspicious of them. > > *Karan Thapar:* * An enquiry at the end of the day, would be in their > benefit as well! Is that what you are arguing? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Absolutely! > > *Karan Thapar:* * What then do you say of people who argue that this is > typical Arundhati Roy. She's been against dams and developments; she's in > favour of secession of Kashmir. She's attacked nuclear weapons and is now > she is defending terrorists? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, to being accused of being typically oneself is not an > accusation. But if you are accusing me of having a world view that I do not > believe in…I mean I do not believe in neo colonial military occupation, I > don't believe in nuclear weapons and I don't believe in ecological > destruction; then I am guilty as accused. Raising questions does not amount > to supporting terrorism. I raised questions on the Parliament attack along > with the people; we want to know who the terrorists are. We don't know. Now, > of the people we defended, two of the four 'masterminds' of the case were > released. Afzal has been convicted by the Supreme Court which says that says > that we have no evidence to prove that he is attached to any terrorist > groups but in order to satisfy the collective conscience of society, he is > being sentenced to death. Excuse me Karan, its my case that the collective > conscience of society is also a part of media construct and a part of the > judicial imagination constructed by these stories that being put out. > > *Karan Thapar:* * So, you are saying to me that as a citizen, as a > conscientious democrat, it is your duty to question. And if the questions > are awkward and unsettling, so be it and that they must be answered, none > the less? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Yes, absolutely! > > *Karan Thapar:* * Arundhati Roy, lets come to the wider issue about how the > police treats the people it has arrested and it is holding in detention. You > are extremely upset by the fact that India Today journalists were given an > access to the young men arrested at Batla House so that interviews could be > done. Why do you call this a terrible thing? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, look this phenomenon of media confessions is becoming > a standard operating procedure with the Special cell and the Delhi police. > The point is that neither the courts nor any kind of international law > allows you to say that people who are being held in police custody under > torture. > > *Karan Thapar:* * How do you know that they are being held under torture? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, the possibility of torture…maybe that day, they were > not tortured. It was the first day. > > *Karan Thapar:* * You are saying that Human Rights laws and values do not > permit people under detention to be interviewed when they are not willing to > be interviewed? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Yes! And even the courts do not accept these as confessions > or evidence. But the reason these are done is because they have a propaganda > value. > > *Karan Thapar:* * The assumption when you say that such incidences have > propaganda value is that these are forced confessions…that the young men > interviewed did not give the answers they did, willingly and voluntarily. > How can you conclude that that's the case? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* In this case it is very easy to be sure. Those young men, > before they were caught, Zeeshan went to *Headlines Today*, Saquib > went to *Mail > Today*…both these (media units) are owned by the India Today, as you know. > They were all people who came out in support of Atif and Saquib and said, > look we know this guy. We know who he is. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Then how come you are calling those so called confessions > when they are incriminating themselves and that when they went > willingly to Mail > Today or India Today, there are inconsistencies. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Yes, so which version are we supposed to believe? The > custodial one or the non-custodial one? > > *Karan Thapar:* * All the three men named by India Today and I will name > them, Zia-ur-rehman, Saquib Insaar and Shakil admitted to planting bombs. > You are denying or doubting the veracity of the so called confessions. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Obviously! Its absurd not to, because they are in police > custody. The same guys, Saquib went to *Mail Today* saying that I have known > Atif for years. I got him this house. I mean it's hardly the behaviour of > terrorists. > > *Karan Thapar:* * I assume that the point you are making is that any > interview that is granted in police custody is not a willing and voluntary > one and therefore any confession made in that interview is a forced > confession and not acceptable? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, it is not admitted. Even in the Parliament case, the > courts admonished the police for parading these people before the media and > giving these media confessions. They didn't do anything to the police which > is why the same police; in fact Mohan Chand Sharma was a part of that cell, > that same cell did it to theses people and it served the purpose. The > propaganda value has been achieved. > > *Karan Thapar:* * You are saying that the Courts had admonished the police > at the time the Parliament attack had happened for arranging such alleged > false confessions and the police disregarded that admonishing and did the > same thing again. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* That's right. > > *Karan Thapar:* * In your eyes, is the police guilty of violating > fundamental human rights by arranging what you call false confessions to be > made in forced interviews? Is this a violation of basic human rights? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* It is a violation of all kinds of rights. I say it again, > that in this atmosphere of communal profiling, this kind of propaganda is > essential for them. It is the keystone to this whole enterprise. They have > achieved what they set out to, regardless of what the court says. > > *Karan Thapar:* * The police have made a habit of this. It happened under > circumstances, in the Arushi murder case, practically everyday. They hold > press briefings, where half baked theories or at least unconfirmed details > they are repeated and revealed to the press. The press then prints them as > facts. The readers and the viewers of television then accept it as the > truth. Are you disconcerted by this? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* I am utterly disconcerted by this because now it is the > combination of the media and the police…you do not know which ends where and > which begins where. In a situation where these encounter specialists are > going out and summarily executing thirty people, calling them terrorists…No > one asks questions once they are dead. We just accept it. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Just a moment ago, you spoke about the collusion between > the media and the police. Are you saying that the press is itself in error > when it accepts what is given by the police and publishes it without > verifying or double checking it? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* It is not just an error. It is outrageous to do something > like this. > > *Karan Thapar:* * So the press' behaviour is outrageous? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* It is outrageous. There are statements like…and this man > looked at me and he looked like a human bomb…I mean what kind of journalism > is that? > > *Karan Thapar:* * So when as a result, like many people have said, this > collusion between the police and the press leads to Jamia Nagar or to > Azamgarh being thought as terrorist hubs or breeding grounds for terrorism, > how unfortunate is that? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* It is not just unfortunate, its very dangerous. We now have > a situation where a hundred and fifty Muslims and an equal number of Dalits > and Adivasis in a different set of circumstances are being targeted in this > way. Even if half a per cent of them decide to stop putting their heads down > and decide to hit back, life as we knew it is over. A whole generation is > radicalised and India becomes a threat to not just itself, but to the whole > world. > > *Karan Thapar:* * This is something very important that you are saying. You > mean that this behaviour of the police and the uncritical reporting by the > press is going to end up in alienation and breeding the terrorism that we > think we are controlling. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Yes, that and also that this is a recipe for sliding into > fascism. And we are bang in the middle of it now and this is how it works. > > *Karan Thapar:* * Why does the Indian middle class society that is so proud > of calling itself a liberal democracy, accept this? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Well, I don't think we are anymore proud of this. We have > increasingly accepted that we are a police state and there is a sort of > sliding of the democracy into majority into fascism that is a real danger > now. > > *Karan Thapar:* * So you are saying that the middle class no more stands up > for the liberal values it believes in. It is actually in a sense accepting > the horrible shortcuts and therefore colluding. It's a very strong > criticism, do you really mean it? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* I do. In fact, I feel that some day like the Nazis in > Germany, we will be called upon to answer for what we have done and why we > kept quiet while this was happening. > > *Karan Thapar:* * I get the feel that you are deeply disillusioned with the > Indian middle classes. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* It is not just the middle classes, you know. It is the > framework that we are putting into action these days. I have spent ten years > writing about it. We are in a very serious situation. If we are to right it, > all of us should ask ourselves very serious questions about when we chose to > speak up and when we chose to stay quiet. > > *Karan Thapar:* * But in keeping quiet, as you say suggesting, Indians today > are prepared to do, they are not just betraying essential values that they > claim they believe in, they are actually betraying themselves and letting > down their country. That's the case you are making. * > > *Arundhati Roy:* I am making that case and I am saying that with these > policies that we are persuing, today every ordinary Indian's life is going > to be at risk and we will pay very heavily for the consequences of what is > going on now. > > *Karan Thapar:* * So it is virtually the last moment to stand up and be > identified with the values that we claim to believe in otherwise those > values are gone and with that our lives are gone.* > > *Arundhati Roy:* Absolutely! > > *Karan Thapar:* * And that's not an exaggeration? * > > *Arundhati Roy:* Nope! Absolutely not! > > *Karan Thapar:* * Arundhati Roy, a pleasure talking to you on Devil's > Advocate* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 22:41:19 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:11:19 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide...aversion against the exiled Hindu Pandits..??? In-Reply-To: <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4904A559.4010004@gmail.com> <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all, The hate /misinformation drive launched against the Kashmiri Hindu Pandits on this forum is almost akin to anti Semitism campaign that preceded holocaust. It is not difficult to understand the aversion, as the campaigners are the known sympathisers/supporters of the Kashmiri pan Islamists responsible for the ethnic cleansing of the minuscule minority of Hindu Pandits in the valley, but the sudden outburst is a bit inexplicable. Visible frustration could only be attributed to Pakistan’s recent u-turn, what with the President Zardari (who would know the protégé better than the mentor / President himself…..) having publicly disowned the self declared Kashmiri freedom fighters describing them as mere 'terrorists'. And this is what the exiled Hindu Pandits have been saying for the past two decades now. As for their political affiliations,Hindu Pandits are like any other social group with diverse ideologies- left, right & centrist .But there is no ambiguity over the fact that the community was targeted by the Islamists because they were Hindus & they symbolised Indian presence in the valley. There are communists who following threats had to flee in the middle of the night with Lenin statuettes clinched in their fists. Regards all LA----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:17:18 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:47:18 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] "A real Bangladeshi will move into White House" Message-ID: Among many reasons given by this Bangladeshi-American supporter for McCain: "A real Bangladeshi will move into White House" (he is referring to Bridget McCain, their adopted Bangladeshi daughter) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTNZ4217cmU Zainul Abedin Zainul Abedin, PhD - Chair, Bangladesh Americans for McCain-Palin -Vice Chair, Asian Americans for McCain-Palin -Deputy Chair, McCain Victory California Leadership Team -Chairman, Regulatory Fairness Board, Region IX United States Small Business Administration -President, Environmental Engineering, Inc. From kirdarsingh at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:30:29 2008 From: kirdarsingh at gmail.com (Kirdar) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:30:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email Message-ID: <73eb60090810271100u34fab5b3k48ec2f0cf2fc9a81@mail.gmail.com> Dear Lalit Please don't misunderstand this. There is no one on this list who laughs at the plight of Kashmiri Pundits - no body is against you or in favour of Islamic terrorists who drove the pundits out of Kashmir. Please understand this basic difference. Your attributing our "frustration" to some recent happening is laughable. Most of us are simply fed up of seeing the same mails, the same arguments day in and day out. By banging your head again and again on the computer you are hurting yourself and us. This is not going to bring any solution. Please read my last 2 mails carefully. I have mentioned that if there is anything we can do to reduce your problems, let us discuss it. I sympathize with your issues. Its just that we have been receiving too many of Adityaraj Kaul's emails. And I said that all these mails are not making any headway since we are completely closed down for each other. So, then why are wasting each other's time and effort. I also said that if there is anything we can do to solve your problems, we are ready for it. Why don't you specify what we should do. Kirdar On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > Dear all, > The hate /misinformation drive launched against the Kashmiri Hindu Pandits on this forum is almost akin to anti Semitism campaign that preceded holocaust. > > It is not difficult to understand the aversion, as the campaigners are the known sympathisers/supporters of the Kashmiri pan Islamists responsible for the ethnic cleansing of the minuscule minority of Hindu Pandits in the valley, but the sudden outburst is a bit inexplicable. > > Visible frustration could only be attributed to Pakistan's recent u-turn, what with the President Zardari > (who would know the protégé better than the mentor / President himself…..) having publicly disowned the self declared Kashmiri freedom fighters describing them as mere 'terrorists'. And this is what the exiled Hindu Pandits have been saying for the past two decades now. > > As for their political affiliations,Hindu Pandits are like any other social group with diverse ideologies- left, right & centrist .But there is no ambiguity over the fact that the community was targeted by the Islamists because they were Hindus & they symbolised Indian presence in the valley. There are communists who following threats had to flee in the middle of the night with Lenin statuettes clinched in their fists. > > Regards all > LA----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________________________________ > Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com > http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From project.labels at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:31:14 2008 From: project.labels at gmail.com (Raheema Begum) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:31:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wishes for the Festival of lights In-Reply-To: <669818.14692.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <669818.14692.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can we also have the meanings of the names? And here's wishing everyone a happy Diwali from the White Ribbon Campaign. Best Wishes of the season, Raheema. On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:10 PM, we wi wrote: > > Dear All, > > Reciting the below, the oil from drops set on the arm, is taken in the > fingers by the lady and applied to the head, cheeks, shoulders, waist, knees > and feet, repeated three times. It is Ashirvadam for the youngster to live > long and prosperously. > > For men the names of Seven achievers to be recited are as follows : > > " Ashwthamo, Balir Vyaso, Hanumanshcha, Vibhishanaha, > Krupaha Parashuramashcha,Saptaite Chirangivinaha" > > For women the five names are as follows: > > "Ahalya, Draupati, Seetha, Tara, Mandodari Tatha, > Panchakanyaha Smarennithyam Mahapataka Nashanam" > > > Wishing you all a very happy and prosporous DEEPAWALI. > > Regards, > Dhatri. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://whosebody.wordpress.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:34:50 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:34:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wishes for the Festival of lights In-Reply-To: References: <669818.14692.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810271104r19feed04qaf955401aed36b69@mail.gmail.com> Happy Diwali to all List members !!!! :-) On 10/27/08, Raheema Begum wrote: > > Can we also have the meanings of the names? > > And here's wishing everyone a happy Diwali from the White Ribbon Campaign. > > Best Wishes of the season, > Raheema. > > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:10 PM, we wi wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > Reciting the below, the oil from drops set on the arm, is taken in the > > fingers by the lady and applied to the head, cheeks, shoulders, waist, > knees > > and feet, repeated three times. It is Ashirvadam for the youngster to > live > > long and prosperously. > > > > For men the names of Seven achievers to be recited are as follows : > > > > " Ashwthamo, Balir Vyaso, Hanumanshcha, Vibhishanaha, > > Krupaha Parashuramashcha,Saptaite Chirangivinaha" > > > > For women the five names are as follows: > > > > "Ahalya, Draupati, Seetha, Tara, Mandodari Tatha, > > Panchakanyaha Smarennithyam Mahapataka Nashanam" > > > > > > Wishing you all a very happy and prosporous DEEPAWALI. > > > > Regards, > > Dhatri. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > http://whosebody.wordpress.com > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul Freelance Correspondent, The Times of India Cell - +91-9873297834 Campaign Blog: http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Personal Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From tapasrayx at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:35:35 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:05:35 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid In-Reply-To: <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4904A559.4010004@gmail.com> <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshemendra, Thank you. Your concern is quite natural. I perfectly under why you see what seems like a lack of concern for KPs on account of a process similar to the one for which some of us have shown concern for people (not just those who come under the ST category in law) displaced by so-called development projects. I think this lack of concern is apparent, not real, and is the result of something I have mentioned in a couple of mails, including the last one (to which you responded) - what Aditya, Pawan and some others have been doing on this list. It is because of these people that I, personally, would think ten times before even attending the kind of meeting Kirdar has proposed even if I were in the vicinity (which I am not). Would the KPs be worse off because of my hypothetical absence from that hypothetical meeting? I don't think so. And there woud always the Pawans and Adityas of the world to take up the slack, if there were any slack to be taken up. If you want to know exactly why I think they are propagandists of the Parivar, I will have to go through months of posts in the archive. That will also help me gauge the depth of their fascist leanings/fascism. But this will be a major project, taking up a huge amount of time and energy. I cannot afford that at the moment, but plan to take up in future. Thank you for giving me a great idea. In their case, it is not a question of "not thinking like me". I do not agree with everything Inder says, but I do not consider him a fanatic of any sort, much less a fascist. Some of the things Shivam has written in the past - after his return from Kashmir - has seemed to me a jaundiced view. But he never sounded like a fanatic or fascist. It's not their (Pawan, etc.) religiosity but the way they have forced the Hindutva agenda on this list - it was Vedavati who started it two or three years ago, if I remember - and insist on bullying the rest of us into submission that I find not only distasteful but totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, this is what the Parivar is all about. Had that not been the case, BJP, Shiv Sena, etc., would have got many more votes than it gets. People like we wi/Dhatri and Radhikarajen/Bhat - obviously lacking the courage to divulge their real names - are the priestly folks where people like Pawan are the kshatriyas in the varnasrama type "division of labour" among this list's saffron flag-bearers. (Let us hope the kshatriyas will earn a promotion to brahminhood sometime.) You answer them with history, logic, etc., and they get back to you with shlokas and thousands of words of obscure and often undecipherable prose, regurgitating stuff they have found in the scriptures or secondary sources. As if these scriptures have no history, are above history the way the Babari Masjid demolition was about "Hindu sentiment", not history - which could be rewritten to accommodate the "sentiments" of these fascists, not the entire Hindu population by far. Of course, the Vedas were revealed, not written by mortals who ate, drank, possibly made merry, and definitely disposed of their bodily waste in the morning. How could I forget that? I guess I forget because this list is run from an institution called the Centre for Studies in Developing Societies, which is affiliated to something called the Indian Council of Social Science Research. Tapas 2008/10/27 Kshmendra Kaul : > Dear Tapas > > The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in PRIVATE > as we did some earlier. > > I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did > not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register my > thoughts on this topic. > > You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is common > currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does not > describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen through > the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. There > was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed to > do so. > > I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy. > > The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the slow > but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious > sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause > similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique > Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are on > this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'. > > Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a Shivam or > that Inder Salim. > > You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what > singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or Politico-Religious > ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that > they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members of > the KP community through practical action. > > It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the "Hindutva" > agenda. > > I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the simple reason > that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or > acts in a manner that promotes or will lead to disintegration of India is > an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a > Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or > Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit. > > At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a > (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be > treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have > exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not Tapas) > do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different opinions' it > suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the swords. > > Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious > destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a > Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a > Hindutva Vaadi? > > Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik > automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking > the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously disguised > it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable than > attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or > attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda? > > It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the > contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar > impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List pay > attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but everyone > else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the > 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam. > > There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any > which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it > does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like > Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, > Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) > Rajendra Bhat. > > Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse and discuss > without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few. > > > Kshmendra > (yet another moron) > > > --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit > suicide > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM > > Kshemendra, > > I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), > and take your criticism seriously. > > You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced > in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term > migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate > their situation. I apologise for that. > > However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed > sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Tapas >> >> With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such >> voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or > "Pseudo-secular" or >> "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of > Humanism? >> >> Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a >> person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. >> >> You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Oct 27 23:37:56 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:37:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid In-Reply-To: <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <4904A559.4010004@gmail.com> <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70810271107k4f9b4d91l3366f7e3578c1272@mail.gmail.com> Dear kshmendra well, it is Tapas, who may respond to your post in detail, but i saw couple of times my name, by now, it looks that you see two distinct set of people on the list who are radically opposed to each other. i happen to be on one side of your list that has Karim, kirdar, shivam, and i beleive shuddha as well, on the other side there is chanchal, radhikarajan, Aditya, pawan, rajendra bhat etc. it is like kauravs and pandavas. i dont say that your are playing Lord Krishana, because you do see faults in both , but at the same time, it looks you know who the padavas ( nationalists ) are , and who the kauravas ( not-nationalists ) are.... you are obviously in a mood to guide the ratha of Pandava who are too immature to understand the Kshmendra vision ( for example your disdain for Hiindutva ) and your deep commitment to integrity of India as one piece nation. ( one joint family, even if the elder brother is a big bully ) anyway, i see some humour, but sincerely there is lot more than what meets the eye, it is most likely that we are just individuals, who happen to look similar, but nothing like two groups sitting of two side of a boarder. by the way, how to resolve this LOC thing between Kashmir and Kashmir ? i dont see a solution, but i dont a functional status quo either. how will pandavas finally win this Dharma yudh ? with lot of love and regards is On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Tapas > > The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in PRIVATE as we did some earlier. > > I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register my thoughts on this topic. > > You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is common currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does not describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen through the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. There was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed to do so. > > I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy. > > The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the slow but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are on this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'. > > Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a Shivam or that Inder Salim. > > You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or Politico-Religious ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members of the KP community through practical action. > > It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the "Hindutva" agenda. > > I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the simple reason that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or acts in a manner that promotes or will lead to disintegration of India is an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit. > > At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not Tapas) do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different opinions' it suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the swords. > > Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a Hindutva Vaadi? > > Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously disguised it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable than attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda? > > It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List pay attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but everyone else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam. > > There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) Rajendra Bhat. > > Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse and discuss without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few. > > > Kshmendra > (yet another moron) > > > > --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicide > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM > > Kshemendra, > > I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), > and take your criticism seriously. > > You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced > in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term > migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate > their situation. I apologise for that. > > However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed > sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that their > plight was similar to those Palestinians who have been forced into > exile. Of course, the Palestinian refugees have to live in foreign lands > - Jordan, Lebanon, etc. - where the local populations, despite being > Muslims and Arabs like themselves, are not particularly welcoming > towards them, while the KPs and other Kashmiri displaced are refugees in > their own land. > > I have never said that anyone who speaks for the Kashmiri refugees is a > Hindu fundamentalist. You have spoken for them if I remember, but I do > not consider you as someone who even remotely resembles Aditya, Pawan, > etc. At least that is the impression I have gathered from those posts I > have read, which are probably fewer than those I haven't been able to read. > > But I cannot stress enough that the others not only are the foot > soldiers of Hindutva but soldiers with fascist tendencies if not > outright fascists. I have come to that conclusion from the totality of > their posts, not just their support for the KPs' cause. My understanding > is that these people are exploiting KPs in the Parivar's interest and > damaging the KPs' cause by doing that. In other words, for those of them > who are KPs themselves, Hindutva is more important than the interests of > those members of their own community who are less fortunate than themselves. > > Tapas > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Tapas >> >> With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such >> voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or > "Pseudo-secular" or >> "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of > Humanism? >> >> Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a >> person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. >> >> You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown on > this List >> by KPs if instead of that idiotic term of 'migration' you see the >> reality of the Internal Displacement that took place. >> >> You might better understand the frustrations when you recognise that a >> Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set, removed from the Land >> where it should exist for it's continuation and evolvement, is on the >> verge of extinction because of the Internal Displacemernt from it's >> nurturing environment. >> >> I am always amazed that people who can be highly sensitive to various >> Displacements (Tribal, Forest etc) and sensitive to to sub-sets of >> species becoming extinct (Turtles, Deer, Tigers etc) have a completely >> different (contradictory and hypocritical) attitude if the 'on verge > of >> extinction' Human Socio/Cultural/Religious Sub-Set of Kashmiri Pandits > >> is brought to their notice. >> >> I will be the first one to admit that the issues concerning Kashmiri >> Pandits are not presented in the most appealing manner. That does not >> take away from the seriousness of the issue. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On *Sat, 10/25/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: >> >> From: Tapas Ray >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & > I'll >> commit suicide >> To: "sarai list" >> Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:42 PM >> >> Kirdar, >> >> These people are simply using the migration issue to foist the > Hindutva >> agenda on this list and to wreck it if they can't. So, I am afraid > your >> logic will have no effect. >> >> People who do this sort of thing, are not the kind this list is meant >> for. If they don't shape up, they will have to ship out - or be > shipped >> out - eventually. >> >> Tapas >> >> >> Kirdar wrote: >> > One more Kashmiri Pundit email on this list and I will commit > suicide, >> honestly. >> > There are millions of people on this earth who have been tortured > and >> > displaced and raped and massacred by someone or the other, but > life >> > moves on, yaar. >> > >> > I want to ask you folks: Because of your displacement from > Kashmir, >> > are you in physical pain right now? Are you starving? Are you > living >> > on footpaths? Are you living in flooded waters? Are you dying of >> > cancer? Are you taunted and abused on the streets? Are your > present >> > houses being burnt down? Are you being persecuted at the moment > as you >> > live in the rest of India? I doubt if the answer to any of the > above >> > is yes. Then why have you become a pain for us on Sarai? >> > >> > Some months ago, someone on Sarai posted a report about a > conference >> > or convention of Kashmiri Pundits which happened in Delhi in > Chinmaya >> > mission or something. It was reported that each Kashmiri Pundit > came >> > to attend the convention in such large limousines that there was > no >> > space left for people to walk. So, what are we complaining about? >> > >> > Please leave this list and start a special one for KPs alone. At > the >> > moment, neither you nor us are able to convince each other - nor > are >> > we making any headway in any discussion. We can't also > discuss any >> > other sane topic on this list. >> > >> > So, please get the hell out of here. >> > >> > (I know my email will lead to further abusing of sanity. Somebody >> > please write my obituary on Sarai) >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 00:04:38 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:34:38 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid In-Reply-To: References: <4904A559.4010004@gmail.com> <830097.95696.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Khshemendra, I hope you realise that these comments are not about you. They are about the priestly preachers of this list. Tapas 2008/10/27 Tapas Ray : > Kshemendra, > > Thank you. Your concern is quite natural. I perfectly under why you > see what seems like a lack of concern for KPs on account of a process > Of course, the Vedas were revealed, not written by mortals who ate, > drank, possibly made merry, and definitely disposed of their bodily > waste in the morning. How could I forget that? I guess I forget > because this list is run from an institution called the Centre for > Studies in Developing Societies, which is affiliated to something > called the Indian Council of Social Science Research. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/27 Kshmendra Kaul : >> Dear Tapas >> >> The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in PRIVATE >> as we did some earlier. >> >> I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did >> not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register my >> thoughts on this topic. >> >> You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is common >> currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does not >> describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen through >> the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. There >> was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed to >> do so. >> >> I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy. >> >> The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the slow >> but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious >> sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause >> similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique >> Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are on >> this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'. >> >> Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a Shivam or >> that Inder Salim. >> >> You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what >> singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or Politico-Religious >> ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that >> they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members of >> the KP community through practical action. >> >> It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the "Hindutva" >> agenda. >> >> I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the simple reason >> that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or >> acts in a manner that promotes or will lead to disintegration of India is >> an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a >> Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or >> Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit. >> >> At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a >> (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be >> treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have >> exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not Tapas) >> do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different opinions' it >> suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the swords. >> >> Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious >> destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a >> Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a >> Hindutva Vaadi? >> >> Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik >> automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking >> the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously disguised >> it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable than >> attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or >> attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda? >> >> It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the >> contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar >> impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List pay >> attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but everyone >> else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the >> 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam. >> >> There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any >> which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it >> does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like >> Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, >> Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) >> Rajendra Bhat. >> >> Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse and discuss >> without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few. >> >> >> Kshmendra >> (yet another moron) >> >> >> --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: >> >> From: Tapas Ray >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit >> suicide >> To: "sarai list" >> Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM >> >> Kshemendra, >> >> I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), >> and take your criticism seriously. >> >> You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced >> in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term >> migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate >> their situation. I apologise for that. >> >> However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed >> sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that > > >> Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>> Dear Tapas >>> >>> With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such >>> voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or >> "Pseudo-secular" or >>> "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of >> Humanism? >>> >>> Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a >>> person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. >>> >>> You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown > From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 05:05:04 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email In-Reply-To: <73eb60090810271100u34fab5b3k48ec2f0cf2fc9a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <466652.52193.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Kirdar Sahib, You say- "By banging your head again and again on the computer you are hurting yourself and us. " Who is "us" here? Can you please delineate what differentiates between "yourself" and "us"? Do "us" have certain qualities that "yourself" don't and vice versa? Thanks --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Kirdar wrote: > From: Kirdar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email > To: "Lalit Ambardar" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 11:30 PM > Dear Lalit > Please don't misunderstand this. There is no one on > this list who > laughs at the plight of Kashmiri Pundits - no body is > against you or > in favour of Islamic terrorists who drove the pundits out > of Kashmir. > Please understand this basic difference. Your attributing > our > "frustration" to some recent happening is > laughable. > > Most of us are simply fed up of seeing the same mails, the > same > arguments day in and day out. By banging your head again > and again on > the computer you are hurting yourself and us. This is not > going to > bring any solution. Please read my last 2 mails carefully. > I have > mentioned that if there is anything we can do to reduce > your problems, > let us discuss it. I sympathize with your issues. Its just > that we > have been receiving too many of Adityaraj Kaul's > emails. And I said > that all these mails are not making any headway since we > are > completely closed down for each other. So, then why are > wasting each > other's time and effort. > > I also said that if there is anything we can do to solve > your > problems, we are ready for it. Why don't you specify > what we should > do. > > Kirdar > > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Lalit Ambardar > wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > The hate /misinformation drive launched against the > Kashmiri Hindu Pandits on this forum is almost akin to anti > Semitism campaign that preceded holocaust. > > > > It is not difficult to understand the aversion, as the > campaigners are the known sympathisers/supporters of the > Kashmiri pan Islamists responsible for the ethnic cleansing > of the minuscule minority of Hindu Pandits in the valley, > but the sudden outburst is a bit inexplicable. > > > > Visible frustration could only be attributed to > Pakistan's recent u-turn, what with the President > Zardari > > (who would know the protégé better than the mentor / > President himself…..) having publicly disowned the self > declared Kashmiri freedom fighters describing them as mere > 'terrorists'. And this is what the exiled Hindu > Pandits have been saying for the past two decades now. > > > > As for their political affiliations,Hindu Pandits are > like any other social group with diverse ideologies- left, > right & centrist .But there is no ambiguity over the > fact that the community was targeted by the Islamists > because they were Hindus & they symbolised Indian > presence in the valley. There are communists who following > threats had to flee in the middle of the night with Lenin > statuettes clinched in their fists. > > > > Regards all > > > LA----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Movies, sports & news! Get your daily > entertainment fix, only on live.com > > http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 16:12:18 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 03:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Wishes for the Festival of lights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <278464.15814.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>   Those who all are celebrate diwali knew about these, but as you requested let me explain!   >>>For men the names of Seven achievers to be recited are as follows :   >>>" Ashwthamo, Balir Vyaso, Hanumanshcha, Vibhishanaha, >>>   Krupaha Parashuramashcha,Saptaite Chirangivinaha"   These are the 7 people alive for ever(mrityunjay)!          1) Ashwatham-- Son of dronachary(Mahabharat )       2) Bali--  The Rakhas/Asura King (Who donated everything including himself to vaman           Vaman(Vishnu) asked for 3 feet land as donation from the king as Bali asked             vaman "what do he want".  Being emperor BALI felt that vaman( too small person)           has had asked him for agraharas,jem,jewelry,money as he donated too much to            the rithviks who performed the yagna.    But with this 3 feet land desire from vaman           BALI  astonished and ready to offer. But BALIS guru KNEW that vaman is the           vishnu and warned bali about this.  By the time BALI MENTALLY PREPARED and           said that "if my hand is upper over vishnu(sarvyantaryami) and I am donating, what           ever i loose let it be".  BALI donated 3 feet land BY POURING WATER THROUGH A           KALAS.  Shukracharya the master still tried to stop this donation(BECAUSE THIS          DONATION WILL CAUSE THE END OF ASURAS AND HIS KING BALI) by          ABDUCTING THE WATER FALL  from the BALI HANDS INTO VAMAN.  By using a           small grass VAMAN cleared the kalas path and hence SHUKRACHARYA lost his          EYE.  After the donation VAMAN occupied the earth with one foot, sky with another          then asked BALI for the the 3rd foot.  ASURA KING shown his head for the 3rd foot          of vaman and hence the peace restoration and the MRITIYATVA to BALI      3) Vyas --. Before his time the Hindu scriptures were passed down orally from teacher           to student for generations. This process naturally resulted in many versions being           propagated. It was impossible for anyone outside the community of priests and seers          to learn about and understand the scriptures. Krishna Dwaipayana classified the         Vedic hymns into four groups, which became the four Vedas.                 BESIDE THIS HE DICTATED THE MAHABHARAT        4) Hanuman -- The son of AIR/DEVOTEE OF RAM/The founder of SITHA      5) Vibhishan -- The brother of RAVAN     6) Krupacharya -- The master of kaurav/pandav until dronacharya presence     7) Parashurama(6th avathar) -- Who conquer the earth 21 times and donated in charity         to  KASYAP        These are 7 are alive still in this world somewhere and by remembering them brings prosperity.             >>>For women the five names are as follows:   >>>"Ahalya, Draupati, Seetha, Tara, Mandodari Tatha, >>>Panchakanyaha Smarennithyam Mahapataka Nashanam"   By remembering these 5 all the sins will be annihilated.      1) Ahalya -- WIFE OF SAGE Gautama/    2) Draupati -- WIFE OF PANDAVAS/    3) Seetha -- WIFE OF RAM/    4) Tara -- WIFE OF VAALI    5) Mandodari--WIFE of RAVAN      Fullest definitions for the words ememring through are beyond the context.  Most of the country stop doing these things but still old people are chanting and performing these things probably for their satisfaction.    Some time back SHIVAM forwarded a mail containing false history about BALI and the angust created by some Pradeep(DALIT BUDDIST as per SHIVAM).  Towards that i responded but this is the actual History about BALI.  Hope you all notice it.    --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Raheema Begum wrote: From: Raheema Begum Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Wishes for the Festival of lights To: dhatr1i at yahoo.com, reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 11:31 PM Can we also have the meanings of the names? And here's wishing everyone a happy Diwali from the White Ribbon Campaign. Best Wishes of the season, Raheema. On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:10 PM, we wi wrote: Dear All,   Reciting the below, the oil from drops set on the arm, is taken in the fingers by the lady and applied to the head, cheeks, shoulders, waist, knees and feet, repeated three times. It is Ashirvadam for the youngster to live long and prosperously.   For men the names of Seven achievers to be recited are as follows :   " Ashwthamo, Balir Vyaso, Hanumanshcha, Vibhishanaha, Krupaha Parashuramashcha,Saptaite Chirangivinaha"   For women the five names are as follows:   "Ahalya, Draupati, Seetha, Tara, Mandodari Tatha, Panchakanyaha Smarennithyam Mahapataka Nashanam"          Wishing you all a very happy and prosporous DEEPAWALI.   Regards, Dhatri. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- http://whosebody.wordpress.com From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 17:09:06 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 04:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <463653.28086.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> What a frustration!  By discussing these I shall not be a member of any political/religous member.     >>>People like we wi/Dhatri and Radhikarajen/Bhat - obviously lacking the >>>courage to divulge their real names - are the priestly folks where >>>people like Pawan are the kshatriyas in the varnasrama type "division >>>of labour" among this list's saffron flag-bearers.   Lol haha! I neither I be a priest nor I took coaching in any! I am a civilian of this country called INDIA.   Better i say responsible.   >>>(Let us hope the kshatriyas will earn a promotion to brahminhood sometime.) Only one time happened in the HISTORY, Surya vamshi royal king Viswamithra was attained BRAHMARSHI status after years of TAPAS breakdown to conquer the (kam,krodh,lobh,moha,mada,matsarya)  and again TAPAS.  Your interest to know PAWAN caste is silly. I am not asking to perform holy practices but You should try to know what is what and their contents by original.    1)What is veda who divided them into 4? 2)What is upanishad,purana? 3)What is Ramayan? 4)What is Mahabharat? 5)What is Bhagavat(if you read the original sanskrit version then u come to know how this world created,maintained and going to destroy by BRAHMA,VISHNU,MAHESWAR. The list of people who rule earth until end of KALIYUG) 5)What is BhagavatGITA?     Vishnu sahasranaam,lalitha sahasranaam are just parts of it.  They are not just scriptures or slokas u come to know! This is the history n this is the INDIA and we are into social lives.  If you are abusing n spreading false information over religon, caste and INDIA how can anybody tolerate(EVERY BODY FEEL AND RESPOND WITH HOWEVER SMALL INFORMATION THEY KNOW ABOUT these, I CAN'T GIVE NUMBER IN FIGURES).   It is better if somebody like your parents/grand parents would have told to you about these as BEDTIME stories.   I wont neither ask you or anybody to byheart,digest but atleast you should know.  It is good if you read some of them.  You need not join or leave your day to day work but just try to spend few minutes(say 10minutes)  for ...........   Know the history,cultrue,tradion and find yourself,     PS: Here "you" mean those are all who spread wrong information/gossip about INDIA, let they be leftists,islamists,aethists,separatists,Christians,half backed HISTORIANS(INDIAN OR WESTREN) selfish natured propagandists.   --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 11:35 PM Kshemendra, Thank you. Your concern is quite natural. I perfectly under why you see what seems like a lack of concern for KPs on account of a process similar to the one for which some of us have shown concern for people (not just those who come under the ST category in law) displaced by so-called development projects. I think this lack of concern is apparent, not real, and is the result of something I have mentioned in a couple of mails, including the last one (to which you responded) - what Aditya, Pawan and some others have been doing on this list. It is because of these people that I, personally, would think ten times before even attending the kind of meeting Kirdar has proposed even if I were in the vicinity (which I am not). Would the KPs be worse off because of my hypothetical absence from that hypothetical meeting? I don't think so. And there woud always the Pawans and Adityas of the world to take up the slack, if there were any slack to be taken up. If you want to know exactly why I think they are propagandists of the Parivar, I will have to go through months of posts in the archive. That will also help me gauge the depth of their fascist leanings/fascism. But this will be a major project, taking up a huge amount of time and energy. I cannot afford that at the moment, but plan to take up in future. Thank you for giving me a great idea. In their case, it is not a question of "not thinking like me". I do not agree with everything Inder says, but I do not consider him a fanatic of any sort, much less a fascist. Some of the things Shivam has written in the past - after his return from Kashmir - has seemed to me a jaundiced view. But he never sounded like a fanatic or fascist. It's not their (Pawan, etc.) religiosity but the way they have forced the Hindutva agenda on this list - it was Vedavati who started it two or three years ago, if I remember - and insist on bullying the rest of us into submission that I find not only distasteful but totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, this is what the Parivar is all about. Had that not been the case, BJP, Shiv Sena, etc., would have got many more votes than it gets. People like we wi/Dhatri and Radhikarajen/Bhat - obviously lacking the courage to divulge their real names - are the priestly folks where people like Pawan are the kshatriyas in the varnasrama type "division of labour" among this list's saffron flag-bearers. (Let us hope the kshatriyas will earn a promotion to brahminhood sometime.) You answer them with history, logic, etc., and they get back to you with shlokas and thousands of words of obscure and often undecipherable prose, regurgitating stuff they have found in the scriptures or secondary sources. As if these scriptures have no history, are above history the way the Babari Masjid demolition was about "Hindu sentiment", not history - which could be rewritten to accommodate the "sentiments" of these fascists, not the entire Hindu population by far. Of course, the Vedas were revealed, not written by mortals who ate, drank, possibly made merry, and definitely disposed of their bodily waste in the morning. How could I forget that? I guess I forget because this list is run from an institution called the Centre for Studies in Developing Societies, which is affiliated to something called the Indian Council of Social Science Research. Tapas 2008/10/27 Kshmendra Kaul : > Dear Tapas > > The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in PRIVATE > as we did some earlier. > > I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did > not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register my > thoughts on this topic. > > You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is common > currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does not > describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen through > the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. There > was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed to > do so. > > I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy. > > The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the slow > but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human Socio/Cultural/Religious > sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause > similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique > Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are on > this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'. > > Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a Shivam or > that Inder Salim. > > You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what > singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or Politico-Religious > ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that > they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members of > the KP community through practical action. > > It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the "Hindutva" > agenda. > > I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the simple reason > that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or > acts in a manner that promotes or will lead to disintegration of India is > an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a > Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or > Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit. > > At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a > (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be > treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have > exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not Tapas) > do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different opinions' it > suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the swords. > > Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious > destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a > Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a > Hindutva Vaadi? > > Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik > automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking > the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously disguised > it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable than > attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or > attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda? > > It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the > contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar > impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List pay > attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but everyone > else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the > 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam. > > There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any > which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it > does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like > Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, > Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) > Rajendra Bhat. > > Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse and discuss > without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few. > > > Kshmendra > (yet another moron) > > > --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit > suicide > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM > > Kshemendra, > > I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), > and take your criticism seriously. > > You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced > in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term > migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate > their situation. I apologise for that. > > However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed > sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> Dear Tapas >> >> With what you have written, what is the difference between you and such >> voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or > "Pseudo-secular" or >> "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of > Humanism? >> >> Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a >> person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. >> >> You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 19:04:27 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:34:27 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid In-Reply-To: <463653.28086.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <463653.28086.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <490714E3.3070006@gmail.com> we wi/dhatri, Your weirdness is getting harder by the day to keep up with. This, and your considerable power of incomprehension, have produced an absolutely lethal mix. Someday you are going to kill us all with this brahmastra. Anyway, let me explain that, when I said you and the other person I named were the priests of the Hindutva army on this list, I said it in a figurative way, not in a literal sense. As for the rest of your mail, I do not feel energetic enough to read it at this time. Forgive me. Maybe later. Tapas we wi wrote: > What a frustration! By discussing these I shall not be a member of any > political/religous member. > > >>>People like we wi/Dhatri and Radhikarajen/Bhat - obviously lacking the > >>>courage to divulge their real names - are the priestly folks where > >>>people like Pawan are the kshatriyas in the varnasrama type "division > >>>of labour" among this list's saffron flag-bearers. > > Lol haha! I neither I be a priest nor I took coaching in any! I am a > civilian of this country called INDIA. Better i say responsible. > > >>>(Let us hope the kshatriyas will earn a promotion to brahminhood > sometime.) > Only one time happened in the HISTORY, Surya vamshi royal king > Viswamithra was attained BRAHMARSHI status after years of TAPAS > breakdown to conquer the (kam,krodh,lobh,moha,mada,matsarya) and again > TAPAS. Your interest to know PAWAN caste is silly. I am not asking to > perform holy practices but You should try to know what is what and their > contents by original. > > 1)What is veda who divided them into 4? > 2)What is upanishad,purana? > 3)What is Ramayan? > 4)What is Mahabharat? > 5)What is Bhagavat(if you read the original sanskrit version then u come > to know how this world created,maintained and going to destroy by > BRAHMA,VISHNU,MAHESWAR. The list of people who rule earth until end of > KALIYUG) > 5)What is BhagavatGITA? > > > Vishnu sahasranaam,lalitha sahasranaam are just parts of it. They are > not just scriptures or slokas u come to know! > This is the history n this is the INDIA and we are into social lives. > If you are abusing n spreading false information over religon, caste and > INDIA how can anybody tolerate(EVERY BODY FEEL AND RESPOND WITH HOWEVER > SMALL INFORMATION THEY KNOW ABOUT these, I CAN'T GIVE NUMBER IN > FIGURES). It is better if somebody like your parents/grand parents > would have told to you about these as BEDTIME stories. I wont neither > ask you or anybody to byheart,digest but atleast you should know. It is > good if you read some of them. You need not join or leave your day to > day work but just try to spend few minutes(say 10minutes) for ........... > > Know the history,cultrue,tradion and find yourself, > > PS: Here "you" mean those are all who spread wrong information/gossip > about INDIA, let they be > leftists,islamists,aethists,separatists,Christians,half backed > HISTORIANS(INDIAN OR WESTREN) selfish natured propagandists. > > --- On *Mon, 10/27/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll > commit suicid > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 11:35 PM > > Kshemendra, > > Thank you. Your concern is quite natural. I perfectly under why you > see what seems like a lack of concern for KPs on account of a process > similar to the one for which some of us have shown concern for people > (not just those who come under the ST category in law) displaced by > so-called development projects. I think this lack of concern is > apparent, not real, and is the result of something I have mentioned in > a couple of mails, including the last one (to which you responded) - > what Aditya, Pawan and some others have been doing on this list. It is > because of these people that I, personally, would think ten times > before even attending the kind of meeting Kirdar has proposed even if > I were in the vicinity (which I am not). Would the KPs be worse off > because of my hypothetical absence from that hypothetical meeting? I > don't think so. And there woud always the Pawans and Adityas of the > world to take up the slack, if there were any slack to be taken up. > > If you want to know exactly why I think they are propagandists of the > Parivar, I will have to go through months of posts in the archive. > That will also help me gauge the depth of their fascist > leanings/fascism. But this will be a major project, taking up a huge > amount of time and energy. I cannot afford that at the moment, but > plan to take up in future. Thank you for giving me a great idea. > > In their case, it is not a question of "not thinking like me". I do > not agree with everything Inder says, but I do not consider him a > fanatic of any sort, much less a fascist. Some of the things Shivam > has written in the past - after his return from Kashmir - has seemed > to me a jaundiced view. But he never sounded like a fanatic or > fascist. > > It's not their (Pawan, etc.) religiosity but the way they have forced > the Hindutva agenda on this list - it was Vedavati who started it two > or three years ago, if I remember - and insist on bullying the rest of > us into submission that I find not only distasteful but totally > unacceptable. Unfortunately, this is what the Parivar is all about. > Had that not been the case, BJP, Shiv Sena, etc., would have got many > more votes than it gets. > > People like we wi/Dhatri and Radhikarajen/Bhat - obviously lacking the > courage to divulge their real names - are the priestly folks where > people like Pawan are the kshatriyas in the varnasrama type "division > of labour" among this list's saffron flag-bearers. (Let us hope the > kshatriyas will earn a promotion to brahminhood sometime.) You answer > them with history, logic, etc., and they get back to you with shlokas > and thousands of words of obscure and often undecipherable prose, > regurgitating stuff they have found in the scriptures or secondary > sources. As if these scriptures have no history, are above history the > way the Babari Masjid demolition was about "Hindu sentiment", not > history - which could be rewritten to accommodate the "sentiments" of > these fascists, not the entire Hindu population by far. > > Of course, the Vedas were revealed, not written by mortals who ate, > drank, possibly made merry, and definitely disposed of their bodily > waste in the morning. How could I forget that? I guess I forget > because this list is run from an institution called the Centre for > Studies in Developing Societies, which is affiliated to something > called the Indian Council of Social Science Research. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/27 Kshmendra Kaul : > > Dear Tapas > > > > The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in > PRIVATE > > as we did some earlier. > > > > I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did > > not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register > my > > thoughts on this topic. > > > > You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is > common > > currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does > not > > describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen > through > > the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. > There > > was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed > to > > do so. > > > > I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy. > > > > The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the > slow > > but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human > Socio/Cultural/Religious > > sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause > > similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique > > Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are > on > > this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'. > > > > Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a > Shivam or > > that Inder Salim. > > > > You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what > > singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or > Politico-Religious > > ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that > > they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members > of > > the KP community through practical action. > > > > It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the > "Hindutva" > > agenda. > > > > I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the > simple reason > > that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or > > acts in a manner that promotes or will lead to disintegration of India is > > an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a > > Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or > > Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit. > > > > At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a > > (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be > > treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have > > exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not > Tapas) > > do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different > opinions' it > > suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the > swords. > > > > Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious > > destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a > > Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a > > Hindutva Vaadi? > > > > Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik > > automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking > > the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously > disguised > > it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable > than > > attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or > > attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda? > > > > It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the > > contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar > > impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List > pay > > attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but > everyone > > else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the > > 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam. > > > > There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any > > which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it > > does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like > > Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, > > Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) > > Rajendra Bhat. > > > > Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse > and discuss > > without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few. > > > > > > Kshmendra > > (yet another moron) > > > > > > --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > > From: Tapas Ray > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll > commit > > suicide > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), > > and take your criticism seriously. > > > > You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced > > in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term > > migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate > > their situation. I apologise for that. > > > > However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed > > sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Tapas > >> > >> With what you have written, what is the difference between you and > such > >> voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or > > "Pseudo-secular" or > >> "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of > > Humanism? > >> > >> Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a > >> person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. > >> > >> You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From dhatr1i at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 20:23:21 2008 From: dhatr1i at yahoo.com (we wi) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid In-Reply-To: <490714E3.3070006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <344095.97298.qm@web45505.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Tapas,   Thats ok. Dont worry .   Regarding reading rest of the mail,    if you are not in a position to read mail, how can we expect to read all those.  Probably you fear that if you read them you may change.   .  Using samskrit wording hmm.  lol Take it easy SIR.   Happy diwali.   Dhatri. --- On Tue, 10/28/08, Tapas Ray wrote: From: Tapas Ray Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll commit suicid To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 7:04 PM we wi/dhatri, Your weirdness is getting harder by the day to keep up with. This, and your considerable power of incomprehension, have produced an absolutely lethal mix. Someday you are going to kill us all with this brahmastra. Anyway, let me explain that, when I said you and the other person I named were the priests of the Hindutva army on this list, I said it in a figurative way, not in a literal sense. As for the rest of your mail, I do not feel energetic enough to read it at this time. Forgive me. Maybe later. Tapas we wi wrote: > What a frustration! By discussing these I shall not be a member of any > political/religous member. > > >>>People like we wi/Dhatri and Radhikarajen/Bhat - obviously lacking the > >>>courage to divulge their real names - are the priestly folks where > >>>people like Pawan are the kshatriyas in the varnasrama type "division > >>>of labour" among this list's saffron flag-bearers. > > Lol haha! I neither I be a priest nor I took coaching in any! I am a > civilian of this country called INDIA. Better i say responsible. > > >>>(Let us hope the kshatriyas will earn a promotion to brahminhood > sometime.) > Only one time happened in the HISTORY, Surya vamshi royal king > Viswamithra was attained BRAHMARSHI status after years of TAPAS > breakdown to conquer the (kam,krodh,lobh,moha,mada,matsarya) and again > TAPAS. Your interest to know PAWAN caste is silly. I am not asking to > perform holy practices but You should try to know what is what and their > contents by original. > > 1)What is veda who divided them into 4? > 2)What is upanishad,purana? > 3)What is Ramayan? > 4)What is Mahabharat? > 5)What is Bhagavat(if you read the original sanskrit version then u come > to know how this world created,maintained and going to destroy by > BRAHMA,VISHNU,MAHESWAR. The list of people who rule earth until end of > KALIYUG) > 5)What is BhagavatGITA? > > > Vishnu sahasranaam,lalitha sahasranaam are just parts of it. They are > not just scriptures or slokas u come to know! > This is the history n this is the INDIA and we are into social lives. > If you are abusing n spreading false information over religon, caste and > INDIA how can anybody tolerate(EVERY BODY FEEL AND RESPOND WITH HOWEVER > SMALL INFORMATION THEY KNOW ABOUT these, I CAN'T GIVE NUMBER IN > FIGURES). It is better if somebody like your parents/grand parents > would have told to you about these as BEDTIME stories. I wont neither > ask you or anybody to byheart,digest but atleast you should know. It is > good if you read some of them. You need not join or leave your day to > day work but just try to spend few minutes(say 10minutes) for ............ > > Know the history,cultrue,tradion and find yourself, > > PS: Here "you" mean those are all who spread wrong information/gossip > about INDIA, let they be > leftists,islamists,aethists,separatists,Christians,half backed > HISTORIANS(INDIAN OR WESTREN) selfish natured propagandists. > > --- On *Mon, 10/27/08, Tapas Ray //* wrote: > > From: Tapas Ray > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll > commit suicid > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 11:35 PM > > Kshemendra, > > Thank you. Your concern is quite natural. I perfectly under why you > see what seems like a lack of concern for KPs on account of a process > similar to the one for which some of us have shown concern for people > (not just those who come under the ST category in law) displaced by > so-called development projects. I think this lack of concern is > apparent, not real, and is the result of something I have mentioned in > a couple of mails, including the last one (to which you responded) - > what Aditya, Pawan and some others have been doing on this list. It is > because of these people that I, personally, would think ten times > before even attending the kind of meeting Kirdar has proposed even if > I were in the vicinity (which I am not). Would the KPs be worse off > because of my hypothetical absence from that hypothetical meeting? I > don't think so. And there woud always the Pawans and Adityas of the > world to take up the slack, if there were any slack to be taken up. > > If you want to know exactly why I think they are propagandists of the > Parivar, I will have to go through months of posts in the archive. > That will also help me gauge the depth of their fascist > leanings/fascism. But this will be a major project, taking up a huge > amount of time and energy. I cannot afford that at the moment, but > plan to take up in future. Thank you for giving me a great idea. > > In their case, it is not a question of "not thinking like me". I do > not agree with everything Inder says, but I do not consider him a > fanatic of any sort, much less a fascist. Some of the things Shivam > has written in the past - after his return from Kashmir - has seemed > to me a jaundiced view. But he never sounded like a fanatic or > fascist. > > It's not their (Pawan, etc.) religiosity but the way they have forced > the Hindutva agenda on this list - it was Vedavati who started it two > or three years ago, if I remember - and insist on bullying the rest of > us into submission that I find not only distasteful but totally > unacceptable. Unfortunately, this is what the Parivar is all about. > Had that not been the case, BJP, Shiv Sena, etc., would have got many > more votes than it gets. > > People like we wi/Dhatri and Radhikarajen/Bhat - obviously lacking the > courage to divulge their real names - are the priestly folks where > people like Pawan are the kshatriyas in the varnasrama type "division > of labour" among this list's saffron flag-bearers. (Let us hope the > kshatriyas will earn a promotion to brahminhood sometime.) You answer > them with history, logic, etc., and they get back to you with shlokas > and thousands of words of obscure and often undecipherable prose, > regurgitating stuff they have found in the scriptures or secondary > sources. As if these scriptures have no history, are above history the > way the Babari Masjid demolition was about "Hindu sentiment", not > history - which could be rewritten to accommodate the "sentiments" of > these fascists, not the entire Hindu population by far. > > Of course, the Vedas were revealed, not written by mortals who ate, > drank, possibly made merry, and definitely disposed of their bodily > waste in the morning. How could I forget that? I guess I forget > because this list is run from an institution called the Centre for > Studies in Developing Societies, which is affiliated to something > called the Indian Council of Social Science Research. > > Tapas > > > 2008/10/27 Kshmendra Kaul : > > Dear Tapas > > > > The respect is mutual else I would have not corresponded with you in > PRIVATE > > as we did some earlier. > > > > I would also not have bothered to address your mail on this topic if I did > > not beleive that you are a thinking person with whom I wanted to register > my > > thoughts on this topic. > > > > You cannot be faulted for using the term 'migrants' since it is > common > > currency. It has a particularness of meaning which (in my opinion) does > not > > describe the reality. That is why I requested that the issue be seen > through > > the IDP lens which (in my opinion) would be the more appropriate one. > There > > was no need for you to apologise. It was more than enough that you agreed > to > > do so. > > > > I personally do not think that KPs have need for any sympathy. > > > > The thrust of my thoughts was that here I have in front of my eyes the > slow > > but sure extinction taking place of a Unique Human > Socio/Cultural/Religious > > sub-set. Where are those who are ever so forthcoming to take up as a cause > > similar Displacement and Threatened Extinction of other Unique > > Human Sub-Sets and Unique Non-Human Sub-Sets? More than many of them are > on > > this very List taking up a variety of 'causes'. > > > > Instead you get 'moronic' commentaries by a Kirdar or a Karim or a > Shivam or > > that Inder Salim. > > > > You have named some KP names on this List. I am not familiar with what > > singularly or (if any) collectively is their Political or > Politico-Religious > > ideology. But what I do know from my membership of some KP forums is that > > they are dedicatedly involved in trying to ease the sufferings of members > of > > the KP community through practical action. > > > > It is also possible that some amongst them subscribe to the > "Hindutva" > > agenda. > > > > I personally have contempt for the "Hindutva" agenda for the > simple reason > > that I see it as threatening the integrity of India. Anyone who speaks or > > acts in a manner that promotes or will lead to disintegration of India is > > an enemy of India. Is my enemy. It does not matter to me whether it is a > > Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai, Atheist or Agnostic, Capitalist, Socialist or > > Communist. Or is a Kashmiri Pandit. > > > > At the same time, you will see people (on this List) being chucked into a > > (for example) Hindutva box or a Islamist box whether they deserve to be > > treated so or not. The reason (in my opinion) is that they do not have > > exactly the same views as you (not Tapas) on an issue. Since you (not > Tapas) > > do not have the capability to 'engage' with their 'different > opinions' it > > suits to demonise them. Becomes easier to justify unsheathing of the > swords. > > > > Shouldnt a KP talking about the social/cultural/demographic/religious > > destruction wrecked in Kashmir by some Muslims be as acceptable as a > > Muslim talking of similar acts by a group of Hindus? Is that being a > > Hindutva Vaadi? > > > > Does the questioning of the Peace Avtaar of the separatist Yasin Malik > > automatically become a generalised attack on Muslims? Is attacking > > the Islamist agenda of a Ali Shah Geelani or (howsoever deviously > disguised > > it may be) of a Yasin Malik or Maulvi Omar Farooq to be less acceptable > than > > attacking the Hindutva agenda of a Modi or of VHP or of the Bajrang Dal or > > attacking the slimy Christiandom agenda? > > > > It is true that manner of speech, expression and how you weave the > > contents of what you convey is of importance and may make or mar > > impressions. I do hope that the KPs who are being demonised on this List > pay > > attention to the perceptions created by them. Not just the KPs but > everyone > > else too. Especially in the context of this topic the authors of the > > 'moronic' postings Kirdar, Karim and Shivam. > > > > There are some on this List who thrive on confrontation and will do any > > which thing to provoke it. Does it include some KPs on this List? Yes it > > does. Does it include others who are Non-KPs? Yes it does. Morons like > > Kirdar, Karim, Shivam and Inder Salim, alongwith such morons like We Wei, > > Chanchal Malviya and (if I am not wrong, the new Avtaar of Radhikarajen) > > Rajendra Bhat. > > > > Where are the 'intellectual capabilities' that seek to converse > and discuss > > without open or veiled attacks? There are some. Woefully few. > > > > > > Kshmendra > > (yet another moron) > > > > > > --- On Sun, 10/26/08, Tapas Ray wrote: > > > > From: Tapas Ray > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email & I'll > commit > > suicide > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 10:44 PM > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > I have a certain respect for you (not that you can't live without it), > > and take your criticism seriously. > > > > You are right. These people are indeed refugees or internally-displaced > > in official jargon. It was a mistake on my part to use the term > > migrants, which is a neutral term that does not adequately indicate > > their situation. I apologise for that. > > > > However, I think you might have noticed that I have always expressed > > sympathy for this group. If I remember, I wrote long ago that > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Tapas > >> > >> With what you have written, what is the difference between you and > such > >> voices who unthinkingly brand as "Anti-Hindu" or > > "Pseudo-secular" or > >> "Islamists" etc those people who might talk about issues of > > Humanism? > >> > >> Talking about Kashmiri Pandit issues does not automatically make a > >> person a follower of the Hindutva agenda. > >> > >> You might have a better appreciation of the "angst" shown > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 28 21:49:00 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Hate as a history lesson Message-ID: <505959.86560.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hate as a history lesson 26 Oct 2008, Shobhan Saxena, TNN When bands of lumpen goons, armed with knives, guns, kerosene cans and shouts of "Jai Sri Ram" rule the streets, hunting those who belong to other faiths, they strut like warriors re-living a historical role. Serial bombers, who maim and kill anyone and everyone within the range of the pellets packed in their crude bombs, celebrate death and destruction in the belief that Islamic history is on their side. The anatomy of religious hate, which is becoming stronger by the day across the country, has a core - our past. It is this that gives the hooligan a sense of purpose and a place in, what he believes to be, the larger scheme of things. But where does the religious-minded goon learn the "history" that fills his mind with enough hate to commit irreligious acts of violence? Perhaps, the answer lies in our educational system, or lack of it. The history textbooks, used by thousands of schools across the country, mix myth and legend with facts in a way that makes it difficult for students to distinguish between them. Often enough, schoolteachers present myth as history and debunk history as myth. The Sunday Times spoke to students at a Saraswati Shishu Mandir in west Delhi, run by the RSS, and found that they perceived Indian history to be nothing but a conflict between Hindus and Muslims. A casual conversation with students at a Saraswati Bal Mandir in south Delhi unveiled an image of India as the oldest civilization in the world and the source of all knowledge and culture. Meanwhile, the young children studying at a madrassa in Delhi's Okhla area don't recognize names such as Ashoka, Buddha and Chandragupta. These historical figures are alien to them. It's almost the same story in many of the more than 1,000 madrassas operating in the national capital. But, the madrassas are changing. It is getting harder to get into college and secure a job, so madrassas are increasingly opting for courses in English, computer science and the natural sciences. But these Muslim religious schools still remain allergic to the social sciences, particularly history. Years in a madrassa classroom may leave a student with barely any knowledge of some of the most important events in Indian and world history. A former student of Varanasi's Jamia Salafia, a leading madrassa run by the socio-cultural organization, Ahl-i Hadith, says, "We are so cut off from the external world that students have no idea of the important trends and events in other parts of the world. When you step out of the madrassa and go into the real world, you are lost." The young man, now enrolled in a history course in a Delhi college, adds, "I don't have much of a problem with what they teach, but I have a problem with what they don't teach, particularly history and political science." But the teaching of history is not enough to create a balanced picture of our multi-religious and multi-cultural country and our changing world. At Saraswati Bal Mandir in Nehru Nagar in Delhi, children are taught history from NCERT books. The school is affiliated to the CBSE, but its small campus is also filled with religious symbols and imagery - Bharat Mata in the principal's office and Rama, the warrior, by the blackboard. Most class XII students believe Rama was a historical figure. "The scientific investigation of the old bridge between India and Sri Lanka has proved that it was built by Rama," says a student, who is unaware of details of the Sethusamudram project case currently in the Supreme Court. Many of the school's students present the Ayodhya temple as proof that Rama existed. Their history teacher offers the final bit of evidence: "The Ramacharitmanas proves that Rama was a historical figure. What further proof do you want?" When asked to state when exactly Rama walked the earth, the teacher retorts: "It's a matter of people's faith and belief." Therein lies the problem. Schools run by religious bodies - be they Hindu or Muslim - teach "matters of faith and belief" as historical fact. It could end very badly, says Aditya Mukherjee, professor of history at Jawaharlal Nehru University. "We will end up producing morons," says the professor, who has written a book on the issue along with colleagues Mridula Mukherjee and Sucheta Mahajan. Their book, The RSS, School Texts and the Murder of Mahatma Gandhi, analyzes history textbooks used by schools in the cow belt. Mukherjee says, "They are putting poison into young minds by distorting the truth." The book lists some of the more bizarre ‘facts' taught as history, including bitter condemnation of Ashoka's philosophy of ahimsa or non-violence, which is alleged to "make cowards of Indians". The textbooks also eulogise Hitler for his nationalism, cast Muslims as invaders and nothing else and claim that Iran and China's first settlers were Indian kshatriyas. These 'facts', which do not withstand independent scrutiny, are taught in an estimated 30,000 schools run by the Vidya Bharti, an apex all-India organization of the RSS. More than 80,000 teachers convey these 'truths' to three million children every year. It is hardly better in thousands of madrassas across the country, where the syllabus remains virtually unchanged from the original prepared during the Mughal period and modified in the late 19th century. "Students of these institutions are developing a world view that's narrow and sectarian. We have so much religion in the country that they don't see anything odd with it," says an official of the ministry of human resources development. He adds that "political reasons" meant "we have failed to detoxify the curriculum of these schools. It's really dangerous. We will pay a heavy price for ignoring primary education." Historians such as Aditya Mukherjee rue the fact that "nobody is bothered about the state of primary education in the country". With government schools either non-existent or not functioning, poor people in rural areas and urban pockets depend on these schools to educate their children. Religious groups, pushing narrow agendas, have grabbed the space left vacant by the state. Historical fact explains why. In Nehru's time, India was focused on creating and sustaining centres of higher education, such as the IITs, IIMs and central universities. For all that Nehru believed that words such as dharma and mazheb were "dangerous" and should be kept out of the "temples of learning", primary education was ignored during his tenure. Now, it has become worse. Today, with the Right to Education Bill (2005), which guarantees free and compulsory education to every child in the 6-14 age group, stuck as the UPA government has failed to introduce a new draft in Parliament, primary education seems destined still to suffer at the hands of hate politics. Hate and history are related. Each time history repeats itself, the level of hate goes up. shobhan.saxena at timesgroup.com From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 21:59:57 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:59:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] it is festival time: you know- Ha, Ha, Ha Message-ID: <47e122a70810280929o48646c2p541e47225d3beb05@mail.gmail.com> HDTA (happy dipawali to all) please click to see 2.45 mts. film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqpSAoPxRJs with love and regards inder salim -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 23:57:17 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:57:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email In-Reply-To: <466652.52193.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <73eb60090810271100u34fab5b3k48ec2f0cf2fc9a81@mail.gmail.com> <466652.52193.qm@web53609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690810281127y19b3b4e2yb37b6c04f97f9063@mail.gmail.com> Rahul and others, I'm deliberately not participating in this unfortunate discussion initiated by some 'Kirdar Singh'. There is no point in asking someone to keep mum. Why should he unless he has some agenda or else not able to understand one's plight (in this case doesn't want to: ignorance)? This is quite similar to the typical Inder Salim Syndrome. I only wish things would have been better. Anyways, the best I can suggest Kirdar ji is to either unsubscribe or else be a little more understanding and empathetic. If you follow what people like Shivam Vij suggest; then only God can be of some help. He hesitates to answer when a logical question is raised by Pawan Durani. In spite of his 'no knowledge' on Kashmir; he tries his best to act as the voice of the separatists or more extreme into 'anti-Kashmiri Pandit' hate campaign. Such people have no moral right to participate in such a discussion. They are from a confused lot; journalist, propagandist or nothing...quite confused...!!! Kindly I appeal to all list members, to act a bit understanding and understand the plight of the forgotten Kashmiri Pandits. P.S. - You can simply delete mails if you don't want to participate in any of the discussions taking place here. I suppose almost all e-mail providers including gmail, rediffmail, yahoo, indiatimes etc have a delete facility. So, no more of junk by Shivam and Inder. :-) Thanks Aditya Raj Kaul On 10/28/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > Kirdar Sahib, > You say- > > "By banging your head again and again on > the computer you are hurting yourself and us. " > > Who is "us" here? Can you please delineate what differentiates between > "yourself" and "us"? Do "us" have certain qualities that "yourself" don't > and vice versa? > > Thanks > > --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Kirdar wrote: > > > From: Kirdar > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] one more Kashmiri Pundit email > > To: "Lalit Ambardar" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Monday, October